GTA:SA investigated for possible retroactive Adults Only rating [Archive]

Sykus

07-10-2005, 06:13 AM

The ESRB is investigating the PC mod for San Andreas called "Hot Coffee." Apparently it allows the player to "simulate sex acts". According to the article at cnn.com (http://money.cnn.com/2005/07/09/technology/personaltech/grandtheft.reut/index.htm?cnn=yes), there is a possibility, depending on the results of their investigation, that the game could be bumped retroactively from a Mature rating to an Adults Only.

The Entertainment Software Rating Board "has opened an investigation into the circumstances surrounding the 'Hot Coffee' modification for (the game) ... to determine if there has been a violation of ESRB Rules and Regulations requiring full disclosure of pertinent content," ratings group President Patricia Vance said in a statement.

According to enthusiast sites, loading the Hot Coffee modification on a personal computer unlocks minigames that enable users to make game characters perform sexually explicit acts.

The content wasn't included in the game - it was part of a mod. How can they change the rating based on mod content?

QueQueg

07-10-2005, 06:41 AM

No, the content is in the game, the mod just unlocks it.

The disclosure process requires the game maker to describe anything in the game content that would effect the rating. If rockstar didn't mention this hidden mini-game, then rockstar messed up.

They should've really removed it before release, instead of just disabling it.

Orphiuchus

07-10-2005, 06:45 AM

Eh, I already got my copy.

AspectVoid

07-10-2005, 06:59 AM

As Que said, if the content was already in the game and the mod just unlocked it, then Rockstar should have either removed it or informed the ESRB about it. On the other side, if they find that the mod adds it into the game (which is Rockstar's claim) then the rating will stay the same.

TrackZero

07-10-2005, 07:19 AM

IMHO, even if the content is there but completely disabled in that you actually need to modify the game's source material to unlock it, that's no reason to affect the games rating.

I mean, if I took a Mario game, found an animation of him thrusting, then put another model of Princess Peach bent over and well, you can figure it out, wouldn't that be the same situation? Should this theoretical modded Mario title invoke it having an AO rating? Pfft, no. That's flat-out stupid. And even if Nintendo had a sequence like that in the game originally, but disabled it so that I'd have to hack the games code to make it work, again, that's not something that the consumer is going to see. The game is being MODIFIED to make it adult.

MasterKwan

07-10-2005, 07:23 AM

If the content is in there but, locked away so NORMAL people never see it, I don't see the problem. I've looked into this a bit, according to the mod author there's a "censor" bit, that controls gameflow. If it's turned off, the explicit scenes become part of the normal gameflow, with it turned off (default) that doesn't happen.

His mod tweaks some files to turn off the censor bit.

I have no problem with this hidden content. I like that Rockstar is pushing the envelope. Me, I'd have no problem with hard core content in M rated games. I just wouldn't let my kids play it. I consider this a localization issue. In the US, you pull out the sex, in Japan and Europe, you turn it back on.

bKangy

07-10-2005, 07:26 AM

It requires something that would require significant effort to find in order to make it work... Surely anyone that bothered would find easier forms of adult media anyway?

Yeah, they would, so the people up in arms about this should sit down and look at the floor.

Kelegacy

07-10-2005, 07:32 AM

M means 17+. AO means 18+, right? WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL? If you own San Andreas or are old enough to buy it, you'd better be able to see a boobie or coitus without going into a mental asylum. If you are 17 and your parents still have to buy or screen your games, you need to run away.

Seriously, the rating on the package says that you need to be 17 to play buy. Why do these groups/politicians/asshats seem to think that San Andreas is meant for children or is going to taint their minds. According to the ratings, they shouldnt even own the game. It's like 12 year olds watching Saw or Se7en. Videogames are a thoroughfare for shitting on, apparently. Martyred because of immense ignorance.

It's been said before by other people, but it DOES make sense. Here in the states, sex or the act of making love is taboo and should be adult oriented, but you can play games and watch movies where a man's life is slowly drained out of him by torture or a succession of headblows by a pipe. Boobies bad, decapitation good.

Lodin

07-10-2005, 07:35 AM

Ha ha! I'm gonna go splice in scenes of me jerking off on a hog in Gone with the wind and Casablanca. They'll have no choice, they'll have to change the rating.

Kelegacy

07-10-2005, 07:37 AM

I have no problem with this hidden content. I like that Rockstar is pushing the envelope. Me, I'd have no problem with hard core content in M rated games. I just wouldn't let my kids play it.

Well, if it's M, they shouldnt be playing it anyway. Technically, that is. According to censors and bigwigs and ministers.

I'd like to see hardcore content (hardcore not meaning porn) in my Mature gaming too, without it being labeled AO. R rated movies are for 17 and up, M rated movies are for 17 and up. I dont really need hardcore anal sex or other forms of sex that is depicted vividly on my screen, but whatever an R-rated movie can get away with, a videogame should be able to, too.

Remember Mafia's sex scene? That was the first time I'd seen anything like that in a game. Very tastefully done, as well.

MasterKwan

07-10-2005, 07:38 AM

Yes, boobies bad, torture good. Just watch "24" to see how true that is.

You know, from what I've seen, it's really no more explicit than sex scenes in Sin City or other R rated movies. It's not tripple X "Debbie does Dallas" kinds of scenes.

Draft

07-10-2005, 07:47 AM

Actually, it'd sort of be awesome if GTA got an AO rating. Walmart won't carry AO games. Shit, Walmart doesn't like to carry M rated games. But Walmart WILL carry GTA, because it sells like crazy.

Dr.Finger

07-10-2005, 07:49 AM

M means 17+. AO means 18+, right? WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL?
M means a minor cannot but it, but they can play it with parental consent. AO means it is illegal for a minor to play it at all, the same way a minor can get permission to see an R rated film but not NC-17 or X rated movies. Also, major U.S. retalers will not carry AO games, which is why an AO game has never been commercially released in the states.

Kelegacy

07-10-2005, 08:31 AM

M means a minor cannot but it, but they can play it with parental consent. AO means it is illegal for a minor to play it at all, the same way a minor can get permission to see an R rated film but not NC-17 or X rated movies. Also, major U.S. retalers will not carry AO games, which is why an AO game has never been commercially released in the states.

True. I dont think it should be illegal to play or watch anything, but it also depends on a parent's degree of censoring. I was allowed to play and watch mostly whatever I wanted, usually due to the fact that my parents were around all the time. Latchkey parents are the ones that should worrry. My parents always let me watch the R rated films and even took me to a few. They knew I could comprehend the realities involved and wouldnt be so impressioned that I'd kill someone and eat their brains. Parenting isnt about censoring; it's about guiding, describing, and discussing--essentially, teaching. I'm 24 and they still attend all my summer softball games and other functions where I'm involved. If that's not being an actively involved parent in your child's life, I dont know what is.

Censoring is inherently bad, I think. But as a parent, what you deem fit for your child is your perogative. What you let them watch/not watch and do/not do may define who they will become someday. Shelter them too much and they might be living with you untli you are 40, or remain celibate except for that farm goat on Highway 17 on a lonely night.

mister_slim

07-10-2005, 08:32 AM

I don't the AO rating, or any of the other ratings, carries any legal standing. AO rated games can be sold to anyone. The ESRB frowns upon it and retailers tend to follow the rating, but there are no legal consequences.

thecrazyd

07-10-2005, 08:34 AM

It's not illegal for them to play it, just to buy it. Minors are not legally banned from seeing NC-17 movies, just from purchasing them or seeing them in a theatre.

Kamalot

07-10-2005, 08:45 AM

Why on earth would Rockstar even bother putting this in the game to be unlocked?

Beelzebud

07-10-2005, 09:10 AM

We don't have censorship in America, we're a free country!

That's why Rockstar gets sued everytime they release a game, and movies like Kill Bill have scenes removed and turned black and white.

Cha-Ka

07-10-2005, 09:33 AM

Okay, supposing this AO rating somehow gets added to GTA:SA (I don't believe it will...but just suppose it did) would this change the rating for the PC version of the game or for all versions? I guess this comes down to asking: is it possible to modify the PS2 or X-box versions of GTA:SA to show the naughty bits that are revealed in the PC-mod? My guess is that such a modification would require altering the console hardware, thereby opening the door for the "but they're not really running it on a PS2 or Xbox since they altered the hardware" arguement.

When it comes to ratings sony, microsoft and nintendo have historically shunned AO. I assume they do this by insisting their developers scale-back the "mature" content in their games until the ESRB deems the title can be rated M instead of AO...but I don't claim to know the full mechanics of this process. Regardless of the methods, it's clear that the giants of the industry don't want to court the Adults Only rating.

If the gubbment forced the ESRB to rate all versions of GTA:SA as AO, how do you think the console manufacturers would react?

if76

07-10-2005, 09:50 AM

This seems really stupid to me. If they change the rating to AO, Rockstar will be forced to slap an AO rating on all future copies of the game.
If they get this mandate, they can simply remove the unlockable content since it was never part of the game anyway. Then it would be back to M. What a waste of time.

eatme

07-10-2005, 09:58 AM

When you submit a game to the ESRB, you sign a contract that stipulates, among other things, that you are FULLY DISCLOSING ALL CONTENT, accessible or not, to the ESRB. If there are cutscenes, movies, audio, etc. on the disc that are inaccessible, and may in any way affect your rating, you are in violation of the terms of the contract.

Rockstar was quite clearly in breach of contract, and the ESRB is well within its rights to take action.

MasterKwan

07-10-2005, 10:10 AM

It says on the back of the box "Strong Sexual Content". As far as I'm concerned that covers this hidden stuff just fine. None of you know what was submitted to the ESRB, so your speculations about what rockstar told them are typical pointless forum guesses.

There are no laws against selling M rated games to minors in most places. There have been attempts to pass such laws but, the ones I know about have been struck down. The theater rating are also voluntary. They aren't laws as such just guidelines.

Kamalot

07-10-2005, 10:39 AM

This is a good little bit on the fiasco...

http://www.gametab.com/news/316607/

Heretic Machine

07-10-2005, 10:42 AM

I think I can sum this up real quick: This country sucks, and it's full of red neck assholes.

MasterKwan

07-10-2005, 10:46 AM

It's not the rednecks that are the problem. They like their porn just as much as I do. It's the religeous crazies that want to take away all of our fun.

Liquidize105

07-10-2005, 10:47 AM

Hahahaha. I saw the "Hot Coffee" mod on gamershell, who knew it'd make such a big splash?

The euros have it right: Hate violence, hate crime, but show it off.

thFOOL

07-10-2005, 10:47 AM

I think I can sum this up real quick: This country sucks, and it's full of red neck assholes.
Oh yeah, THAT's a real educated outlook.

Deadend

07-10-2005, 10:49 AM

So Rockstar may be in trouble for not telling everything, this is me not caring.

But like everyone else is saying, game ratings are voluntary.

A store decides to honor it or not, but if a console game is being made, it almost has to be rated, as stores won't carry a unrated game, nor will sony/ms/nintedo let the game come out.

Heretic Machine

07-10-2005, 11:17 AM

Oh yeah, THAT's a real educated outlook.

Yes, it is. The rest of the world is fine with sex, they don't go crazy just because some pop singer's boob accidently flopped out during the Super Bowl. I mean sure, it's fine to wear nothing but stickers on your nipples, but the moment one of'em pops off, the shit hits the fan.

This country sucks.

11thfinger

07-10-2005, 11:38 AM

I find it pretty offensive that a similuation mini-game is changing the rating of a game which already features people talking about explicit sexual acts. What the fuck is the difference? The fact is, this game is great, but it is extremely over the top, especially in language and violence.

The last time I played, I went on a chainsaw massacre (manhunt style) and listened to a cop tell me my sister was only sucking one esse's dick at the moment, but would be up for more soon. This was just in the span of one two hour session. Come on now, stop fooling yourselves and get off of your high fucking horses - not everyone should be playing this game. I have never seen a movie this over the top in so many ways... the closest might be Rob Zombie's wretched movie, which I believe did get an NC17 rating.

It really is an incredible game, so much deeper than previous installments, but the content is very raw and unfiltered. And not just in the name of realism. A hood simulator would be one thing, but this opens up a lot more options beyond that.

eatme

07-10-2005, 11:47 AM

It says on the back of the box "Strong Sexual Content". As far as I'm concerned that covers this hidden stuff just fine.

Unfortunately, it most likely doesn't cover it "just fine" as far as the ESRB is concerned, and they signed a contract with the ESRB, not you. If you'd like to start MasterKwan's video game rating system, though, good luck to you.

SMES

07-10-2005, 12:21 PM

Unfortunately, it most likely doesn't cover it "just fine" as far as the ESRB is concerned, and they signed a contract with the ESRB, not you. If you'd like to start MasterKwan's video game rating system, though, good luck to you.

Dude, they're talking about the overall guiding moral principals of the country's culture, not the semantic details of Rockstar's and the ESRB's rating contract, which by the way I highly doubt you know any more specifics about than anyone else on this forum. Furthermore I doubt you know the true extent to which the rules of such a contract would govern hypothetical locked content of certain arbitrary moral extremes.

In fact, everything you have to say is just as speculative as what anyone else has to say, so you shouldn't state it as fact.

jacktion

07-10-2005, 12:29 PM

It all depends on how hard it is to unlock this material. If it is "hidden" but a few button presses "reveals" it then Rockstar fucked up. If it requires some serious hacking to change it then it doesn't seem too bad. Still a stupid move on Rockstar's part though. And isn't this just for the PC? Can people get this on PS2?

Mav

07-10-2005, 12:30 PM

Actually, it'd sort of be awesome if GTA got an AO rating. Walmart won't carry AO games. Shit, Walmart doesn't like to carry M rated games. But Walmart WILL carry GTA, because it sells like crazy.

I think Walmart would make an exception in GTA's case.

I for one would never, ever, buy it anywhere else. Why? Opening week, it's $45 at Walmart, versus say, $55-$65 at Best Buy, EB Games, etc Yes, I will go that length to save $15 or even $10 ($2.50 for a gallon of gas, you can damn well bet I'm saving $10 when and where I can)

eatme

07-10-2005, 12:40 PM

Dude, they're talking about the overall guiding moral principals of the country's culture,

Funny, the post I was responding to specifically referred to the ESRB rating. Unless there's another part on the back of the box that says, "The ESRB wasn't contracted to rate this game, so we don't know what it would've said. The overall guiding moral principals of the country's culture, however, rate this game strongly sexual!" I must admit, I haven't looked at the back of that box in a while.

not the semantic details of Rockstar's and the ESRB's rating contract, which by the way I highly doubt you know any more specifics about than anyone else on this forum.

They're standard from game to game, so yes, I do.

PixelSamurai

07-10-2005, 01:05 PM

Yes, it is. The rest of the world is fine with sex, they don't go crazy just because some pop singer's boob accidently flopped out during the Super Bowl. I mean sure, it's fine to wear nothing but stickers on your nipples, but the moment one of'em pops off, the shit hits the fan.

This country sucks.

I don't really see how this means our country sucks. It's ridiculously easy to get and find porn in this country. Many of our R movies contain nudity, we have entire TV networks devoted to porn (Spice channel etc) and we have strip clubs, sex shops, and in some states legalized cathouses (ever catch that HBO special The Cathouse?). Yes, some individuals and even some interest groups don't like nudity and sex on mainstream TV. I don't look for nudity or sex on mainstream TV as it's not something for everyone. We're free in this country to seperate sex from other forms of entertainment, but by no means is it banned.

If you want to argue that this country sucks, check out our drug policy. :D

Opty

07-10-2005, 01:47 PM

Revolutionary1

07-10-2005, 01:54 PM

You know, if Rockstar put this content into the game and failed to notify the ESRB, then whether it's locked or not doesn't matter. If a movie adds new content to their movie before releasing it onto DVD, they have to add notification that it's now "unrated". They even have to add notification that bonus content has not been rated.

According to the ESRB rating for San Andreas it's rated M for the following: Blood and Gore,Intense Violence,Strong Language,Strong Sexual Content,Use of Drugs. Now, I don't see Nudity in that list, and that's where the problem is.

I don't think this is the ESRB's fault. What it comes down to is two things: First, why would Rockstar leave the content in the game if they didn't intend someone to find it (and how did people find out about it in the first place? Someone had to mention something)? Additionally, however, as others here have mentioned, the game IS rated M. You can't buy it unless you're at least 17 (18 in some states), so doesn't that come down to parental responsibility? Much of the flap about this whole thing seems to discount the fact that parents have to be looking over their kid's shoulders.

I work in a video game store on occasion. We're exceptionally strict about enforcing the ratings rules, but I still see far too many parents who glibly agree to let their 10-15 year old kids purchase this game, with stupid excuses like, "They see it on TV and in the movies all the times, so what's the problem with a video game?" Hey Mommy Moron! Why is your kid seeing all this crap on TV and in movies? Isn't that part of your responsibility too? Or are you just so bent on having time to yourself that you've thrown morality and responsibility to the wind?

</RANT>

Revolutionary1

07-10-2005, 01:56 PM

I'm betting they left it in because of the huge chance of bugs popping up from removing a scenario from the game was probably higher than the bugs that could pop up by putting an on/off switch on the scenario. If the game never turns the switch on, then you have to alter the content of the game to make the switch turn on, therefore anything that happens because of that is Rockstar's fault. They locked the game up and someone broke in, and the media's blaming Rockstar for having it there instead of blaming whoever unlocks it.

Even if that's true, why was the content put in in the first place? And it still doesn't answer to why they thought they could leave it in (disabled or not) without notifying the ESRB. With the amazingly adept modders and hackers out there, there was little to no chance this wouldn't be discovered.

bobbler

07-10-2005, 02:00 PM

I think the problem people have is one of our instinctive and natural urges as a species is shunned almost in our society. Yet an urge that should be surpressed and most people don't have is welcomed with open arms (violence).

Parents are more concerned with little kids seeing a tit than they are power rangers, which is a fucking travesty if you ask me. I would rather have my kid watching porn than power rangers or whatever new kids abomination is out (of course I don't have kids, but I see less harm in sex than I do violence).

BabyJesus

07-10-2005, 02:06 PM

The content wasn't included in the game - it was part of a mod. How can they change the rating based on mod content?

Because the people who do these things are reactionist asshats.

Royal Fool

07-10-2005, 02:45 PM

Okay, look.

The models were already present on the disc. So were the nude textures, the "coffee" animations, the scripts and text - it was all there. The game practically included a fully functional sex simulator. All the mod author did was find a small value in one of the script files and change it so the "hot coffee" stuff would become playable.

Whether or not this can only be playable after a mod is installed is irrelevant, as Rockstar released the game with modding in mind and allowed people to fiddle with the game content. As such, they should have expected someone to enable this hidden gameplay content. And indeed, that is what happened - the mod was released only 3 days after the game was released for the PC. It's even possible to enable this in the Xbox version...

retsudo

07-10-2005, 02:58 PM

The problem is with the religious fucktards whining about every single kind of media except their own favourite one - which outdoes almost any 'AO' rated media in the 'horrendous shit' category - not with the sale of a game for adults to adults in a supposedly but not anymore 'free' country.

Don't like the game? Don't play it.

thFOOL

07-10-2005, 03:34 PM

By the same extension,
"don't like the country? Leave"

No, I don't actually feel this way, but jeez, several of you don't get the fucking point here. Rockstar agreed to abide by the rules of the ESRB and by including content that exceeds the rating given to them, they are not playing by the rules. If it was a matter of not taking it out to prevent the code from breaking, they could have at least taken out the nude character skins or replaced them with something else. I guarantee that the press generated by this snafu will bump sales up a bit, as a big reason for the game's success is the controversy around it.

Once again, the point of this whole situation isn't how the moral majority is striving to censor a video game, it's whether or not Rockstar decided not to play by rules that they themselves agreed to.

retsudo

07-10-2005, 03:54 PM

There is almost no option of not agreeing to ESRB - stores are less likely to stock an unrated game. Its already covered by the agreement anyway - 'strong sexual content' would include 'nudity' if thought about for a second.

You want to talk about not getting the point? You're claiming rockstar is to blame for something that is not in the game without modifying the code. No cheat codes, nothing can unlock this without actually modifiying the game files.

Anyone who wanted to could, with sufficent perseverance, make nude skins for any game. (any game with humanoids in)

Oh - the Sims has a cheat code which removes the pixelation effect. It leaves action man skin, (ie no genitalia) - but it is nudity. Don't see that being mentioned here.

Heretic Machine

07-10-2005, 03:55 PM

If you want to get technical about it, this content was not present in the game. The game is not the disc, the game is what's playable without modification. This sex simulator stuff was not included in the game, but it was on the disc.

So does the ESRB rate games, or disc content? I'm not sure, I'd have to see the contract.

thFOOL

07-10-2005, 04:07 PM

You want to talk about not getting the point? You're claiming rockstar is to blame for something that is not in the game without modifying the code.

No, but if they included unlockable skins with genetalia, or scripted actions that surpass the M rating, then they should get slapped. If it's an easter egg that needs to be tinkered with to unveil it, the point of the matter is that they included the content in the first place, intending for some enterprising individual to uncover it and let the world know how to do it themselves. Obviously they can't be held responsible for someone else modding their game if it can be done, but if they themselves created the content then they are the ones at fault.

Mason

07-10-2005, 04:07 PM

ESRB is 100% correct to do this. Including adult content in your game that you only have to flip a bit to see isn't sufficiently obfuscated. It'd be like including a porn movie with a bad file header on the DVD. The minor technical fiddling necessary to see the content doesn't make it something you can skip in your stated inventory of questionable content.

I agree with everyone who raises objections about the need for our culture to be so stupidly obsessed about the evils of coitus, but still, the ESRB is a body of voluntary regulations. If the ESRB doesn't do its proper job in these sorts of situations, there's a bunch of swell guys in Washington who'd just love to do it for them.

Don't attack the ESRB. Remember, all the assholes who want to censor games have wet dreams about the ESRB being undermined, so support our goddamn voluntary ratings system unless you want it to be taken away. And an AO rating is only that; a rating. You can still buy the game and play the game, it is not censorship. Hell, I think it'd give developers more freedom if a major release had the AO rating, since it'd remove the stigma and likely change store policies.

Heretic Machine

07-10-2005, 04:12 PM

And an AO rating is only that; a rating. You can still buy the game and play the game, it is not censorship.

WRONG! Too many stores refuse to carry AO games, essentially censoring them. Saying that you -can- technically go buy the game through inconveniant means doesn't change a thing, it's still censorship.

Mason

07-10-2005, 04:14 PM

Heretic Machine

07-10-2005, 04:17 PM

My one further point is, should this also effect the Sims games? While the nude models that ship with the game lack detail, they're still accurate enough to earn it a M, perhaps. Since it is similarly only a small mod to remove the blurring (and a nude patch comes out for a Sims game like 5 minutes after the release), it would seem to be a similar situation. Should the ESRB crank those Sims games up to an M?

Although you might be onto something with the blur being so easily switched off, the textures themselves contain no actual nudity. You're essentially looking at a flesh colored body suit.

That's why we have nude skins which were one of the only things that had serious improvment with the Sims 2 :p

thFOOL

07-10-2005, 04:27 PM

from an article on next-gen (http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=375&Itemid=2):

How the ESRB Works

For the unaware, the ESRB rating process entails the submission to the ratings board of a tape containing approximately an hour of representative video footage -- including examples of the most potentially-offensive content -- of the game in question. The ratings and descriptors themselves are generated by parents unaffiliated with the ESRB administration.

In Yee’s case outline above, if this content did exist in the game (hidden or not), it should have been disclosed on the tape provided to the ESRB; it would then, based upon the ESRB content guidelines -- revised annually, incorporating feedback from publishers, developers, retailers, academics and psychologists -- have likely resulted in an AO rating. If this content really is in the game as-shipped and the mods simply unlocked existing content, then any blame for the omission falls squarely on Rockstar. Again, Rockstar has denied that this content innately exists in the game. For its part the ESRB is launching an investigation into the issue to examine this aspect more closely.

If, on the other hand, this content is merely the work of some modders who are now enjoying their five minutes of fame, then Yee, currently seeking ammunition to push through his AB 450 bill, might better have been served by more research.
Naturally, Rockstar doesn't want an AO rating if it can help it. But will it really stem the tide of sales that much? Would there be a recall? Certainly a shitstorm would ensue and we would likely see some major political hay out of this and probably the lawmakers who are deadset on legislation getting passed are going to get their wish. That would be bad. Very bad. I, for one, hope that Rockstar is innocent in all this, but I'm concerned that they may have gotten a little cocky (no pun intended) and actually included the content in the game. They thrive on the free publicity the hand-wringers give them. As a parent myself, I wouldn't have let my kids near the game due to the violence aspect, regardless of any sexual content, and I wish more parents actually felt the same way I do, but it seems that I am in a minority in this way of thinking.

If Rockstar did include the content themselves then we have them to blame for the shitstorm that will happen. Most likely the ESRB will be replaced by a more draconian measure and then we'll see some REAL censorship happen.

Mason

07-10-2005, 04:27 PM

WRONG! Too many stores refuse to carry AO games, essentially censoring them. Saying that you -can- technically go buy the game through inconveniant means doesn't change a thing, it's still censorship.

Capitalism, dude. You can't blame the developer or the ESRB for store policy, and the ESRB can't make decisions based on those store policies. If stores aren't carrying one of the most popular games of the year, then that's their choice. But releases like GTA:SA are the lifeblood of your local EBGames, so you'd find them getting over their scruples really fast.

Censorship, like fascism, is a word that gets slung around so wildly that it has lost a lot of its true meaning. Giving a game with naughty bits an adult rating isn't censorship. You don't have a constitutional right to get your adult game on the shelf right by Pokemon games.

Don't start crying censorship just because you're afraid of marching down to GameStop and looking like a perv by demanding they sell you adult games. Be a proud perv, and march with your wallet if a retailer isn't suiting your needs. I know it might be a tiny bit inconvenient, but the alternative is the ESRB becomes a mockery of a voluntary ratings organization and the bureaucrats in DC get to figure out just how much blood your game is allowed to show.

So...yeah. You're rooting for the wrong team here if you want to avoid real censorship.

Mason

07-10-2005, 04:32 PM

Although you might be onto something with the blur being so easily switched off, the textures themselves contain no actual nudity. You're essentially looking at a flesh colored body suit.

That's why we have nude skins which were one of the only things that had serious improvment with the Sims 2 :p

Yeah, like I said, they aren't detailed, which is why I didn't say AO. But still, is a naked person minus the dangly bits worth an M? If the game shipped without the blurs, it'd seem a bit racy for a T rating.

And if a no-blur Sims is too much for a T rating, it's hard to deny that a retroactive M (or T-16 or whatever else they have) is appropriate.

Kelegacy

07-10-2005, 04:57 PM

Cha-Ka

07-10-2005, 05:14 PM

I'm curious...could videogame companies make their game "unrated"? Do they have to have the ESRB rate it? An unrated game would make it easier for them, but not for parents.

Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas The Unrated Director's Cut

But console manufacturers have yet to license a single AO rated game in the U.S. That's what sets the high water mark at Mature. As much of a powerhouse as the GTA series is, I doubt even they could talk Sony or MS out of that standard.

Which brings up an interesting question: Has there ever been a game that recieved different ratings on different platforms?

Mason

07-10-2005, 05:29 PM

I'm curious...could videogame companies make their game "unrated"? Do they have to have the ESRB rate it? An unrated game would make it easier for them, but not for parents.

Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas The Unrated Director's Cut

Unrated games is a bad idea. Start selling games outside of the voluntary ESRB system and they'll produce a manditory system. It is ridiculous, of course, since your local Best Buy or Blockbuster has plenty of unrated DVDs on the shelves (with content way beyond anything in mainstream games), but in case you haven't noticed, video games are under much finer scrutiny than any other form of media.

The game industry just needs to get a Washington lobby going, the same as everyone else. Conservative politicians tend to stop getting high and mighty about a topic if there's some campaign money in it for them. And the media will blunt its attacks on gaming when games make up a larger chunk of their ad revenue.

Don't you people notice how things get done in this society?

Kelegacy

07-10-2005, 06:02 PM

I dont see why gaming is always under the microscope, but movies like Saw get away with so much. They are rated the same way games are. I think it might be better to just make it mandatory to not sell to minors. That way parents will be the ones responsible, or the stoned out hippie the kids con into buying the game.

Gaming is under the microscope because society still thinks that just kids play games. They also think that adults who play games are outcasts or losers. I was a kid who played games, but I grew up. I'm 24 now and I'm still a gamer. There are millions of us in that older demographic...and we're the ones predominatly buying the mature games and seeing the mature movies. It's typical of politicians to want to wage wars or create laws about things they know nothing about. Videogames are bad and corrupt our children with blood and guts. Well, they are rated for a reason. Stop trying to point fingers everywhere but at parents. I think the industry has taken great steps by rating games and now many places wont sell to minors. Still, that wont stop the War Machine.

MasterKwan

07-10-2005, 06:03 PM

I was going to criticise you all for over-reacting, then I watched a movie someone made of what happens with the mod. It's pretty damn explicit. There's no way it was added as a mod either. Clearly it was put in by Rockstar and unlocked. It's about as hard core as two cartoon characters can get.

It gets my vote for AO IF it was in the normal progression of the game (which it isn't).

I expect sales of the PC version will explode.

ElectricMonk

07-10-2005, 07:22 PM

i never even heard of this patch until just recently so i looked it up... there isn't even nudity in them. at least god of war has boobs and it's still m. (edit.. i saw the movie... it definately has nudity but i think the nude skin may be a hack since there are non-nude screens too)

besides, a golden rule of fixing bugs is if it's not broke don't fix it. if merely disabling the mini-game was good enough then removing code could potentially add bugs.

the only thing that's going to come out of this is rockstar will sell more games. good for them.

Sykus

07-10-2005, 09:47 PM

Looks like my first news post was a hit. :)

retsudo

07-10-2005, 11:13 PM

Censorship, like fascism, is a word that gets slung around so wildly that it has lost a lot of its true meaning. Giving a game with naughty bits an adult rating isn't censorship. You don't have a constitutional right to get your adult game on the shelf right by Pokemon games.

Please look up the meaning of the word censorship before looking stupid: you are wrong.

Goronmon

07-10-2005, 11:43 PM

Rockstar is brilliant, they managed to get the media to advertise the fact that the game contains porn. All this will do is sell more copies than before, haha...

01010

07-11-2005, 05:06 AM

So let me get this straight, people are concerned about two COMPUTER GENERATED (and not very well at that, damn PS2 holding everyone back) characters having sex in an adult rated game. In fact, having sex in a minigame that has to be unlocked using a program that Rockstar have nothing to do with.

What the fuck is wrong with you people, there's no debate on this, it's completely fucking dumb to even waste your time with this, it's just more idiots screaming in the wind. As usual.

Mrbunchypants

07-11-2005, 07:52 AM

Like this isn't the first time some one has done something like this.

I think the big reason for this is AO rateing means more hoops and less place you can sell or advertise the game. Where as an M rateing means you have more freedom.

It's kinda funny how a little sex gets you an AO rateing but beating a hooker with a dildo (found in any police station) is only M.

Thenetcase

07-11-2005, 08:06 AM

Blah blah blah.

I got the mod and I don't see why it's so crazy and stuff... Maybe because you actuall get to interact with the main characters penis and his girlfriend's vagina?

vornskr

07-11-2005, 08:38 AM

IHT.com (http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/07/11/business/games.php) has an article on this from the NYTimes up.

Kelegacy

07-11-2005, 09:52 AM

anyone have a link to a working video of Hot Coffee? I found one video on a site, but it wasnt working. I'd like to see it, and see if it's as risque as "grown ups" believe.

mister_slim

07-11-2005, 09:52 AM

Please look up the meaning of the word censorship before looking stupid: you are wrong.
To paraphrase Mason, 'You don't have a constitutional right to get your [Hustler magazine] on the shelf right by [Shonen Jump]'.

eatme

07-11-2005, 10:16 AM

retsudo

07-11-2005, 10:51 AM

To paraphrase Mason, 'You don't have a constitutional right to get your [Hustler magazine] on the shelf right by [Shonen Jump]'.
Nobody was talking about constitutional rights, genius. Cen-sor-ship.

thFOOL

07-11-2005, 12:01 PM

Nobody was talking about constitutional rights, genius. Cen-sor-ship.

I don't suppose you could enlighten us as to your definition of the word, braniac. Maybe while you're at it you can be even more condescending, too, that always seems to work.

Here, I'll even provide one for you:

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship

Censorship is the use of governmental power to control speech and other forms of human expression. It is most commonly applied to acts which occur in public circumstances, and generally involves a suppression of them by criminalizing their expression. What is censored may range from specific words to entire concepts, and the ostensible motive of censorship is to stabilize or improve the society over which the government has control.

Changing the rating from M to AO, in my opinion, cannot be construed as censorship. Rockstar has agreed to play by the rules of the ESRB and if it is proven that they haven't, then they are to blame and the rating should be changed or the material should be excised. But I guess you are just too damn 'smart' to realize that, huh?

dr_wily

07-11-2005, 12:35 PM

haha rockstar was doing just dandy till the pc nerds reverse eng'd the game.
suckers!

retsudo

07-11-2005, 12:50 PM

You link to something that proves you wrong, and cast aspersions on the prowess of others.... wow.

thFOOL

07-11-2005, 01:17 PM

Well maybe you should fucking explain yourself, jackhole. You just pop in, tell people they are wrong, and insult them. Back up your shit. Explain it. From my perspective you are talking out of your ass and have a very limited grasp of the topic.

Kelegacy

07-11-2005, 03:25 PM

Both of you, TIMEOUT!, NOW! (points to the corner)

kingnothing

07-14-2005, 07:55 PM

Okay, okay... so are there any screen shots or videos of said "Hot coffee" mod in action on the internet? I can't find anything anywhere. Anyone have any image captures they'd like to share with us? I was watching Attack of the Show on G4, and they showed a video of Carl bending some white girl over... but there was a GIANT black "CENSORED" bar over the entire action. The interior of the room they were in had posters on the wall and it looked like a room in one of CJ's safehouses. So anyhow, any uncensored pics online? :D

Kelegacy

07-14-2005, 08:00 PM

I'd love to see the video in action, too. But I cant get a working vid. I COULD install the mod and play up until Hot Coffee, but I dont wanna. I dont to see the vid because I'm a pervert, but I'm just doing a journalism piece on the story and want to know what I'm writing about.

Actually, that was all a lie. I really AM a pervert. GO GO Phallus Rangers!!

eaweeks21

07-20-2005, 03:45 PM

An AO rating for GTA even with the mod, makes no sense. The "M" rating is for "Titles in this category may contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content, and/or strong language". The "AO" rating is for "Titles in this category may include prolonged scenes of intense violence and/or graphic sexual content and nudity". "Strong Sexual Content" and "Nudity" is allowed in "M" rated games, just look at Leisure Suit Larry. FOR CRYIN OUT LOUD, GTA DOES NOT EVEN HAVE NUDITY. Sexual acts are often depicted on network late night tv. This is a far cry from porn as an "AO" rating would suggest and many lawmakers would like. Why the double standard. Ratings for movies are not even federally enforcable, only on a state level. Give me a break politicians... (Quotes from ESRB.com)