Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition in 2008

[Doctor Setebos]

This is actually welcome news (http://blog.wired.com/games/2007/08/dungeons-dragon.html), seeing as how I just donated all my 3rd edition materials to Ziggurat Con (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28638).

A more generous reading would cite all the extracurricular work that Wizards is putting into community building for D&D. Launching alongside the new edition of the rules is what the company is calling D&D Insider, a suite of web tools aimed at easing some of the more time-consuming involved in setting up a campaign. D&D Insider will feature character and campaign-building tools, as well as a "virtual tabletop" that will enable players and game masters to congregate remotely. In tandem with its for-gamers social networking site Gleemax, it seems that Wizards is putting forth an admirable effort toward making D&D play better with the internets.Dear lord! Are they actually attempting to turn D&D into an online game?!

[GunnyMo]

Yep, who wants to sit around a table with a bunch of sweaty D&D nerds when you can do it from the comfort of home and your underwear?

Is it any surprise that Wizards, once again, is on track to completely fuck over the entire concept of D&D?

[LongStepMantis]

D&D based games over the net? Has happened before...but actual PnP D&D, played over the net...something just seems wrong about that.

[Citizen Philip]

Yep, who wants to sit around a table with a bunch of sweaty D&D nerds when you can do it from the comfort of home and your underwear?

Me! I like playing D&D with my friends. But I have so few, and we never actually play D&D anymore...

Is it any surprise that Wizards, once again, is on track to completely fuck over the entire concept of D&D?

No! It isn't. Sounds like they are try to resurrect E-Tools in its originally advertised form. All things considering that isn't a bad thing.

I own a pile of the D&D miniatures, but I can't say I'm fond of the almost prerequisite need to play D&D with a ruler and a gridmap.

[Doctor Setebos]

Is it any surprise that Wizards, once again, is on track to completely fuck over the entire concept of D&D?Hey, they did some cool things in 3rd edition! Like getting rid of THAC0. And making various things completely meaningless, like alignment and dragons. Oh, wait.... :rolleyes:

[GunnyMo]

I own a pile of the D&D miniatures, but I can't say I'm fond of the almost prerequisite need to play D&D with a ruler and a gridmap.

Again, that's the point of D&D. ;)

[Lima Beans]

sounds pretty cool to me

[Sandman]

Who's up for a Friday Night D&D Night here?

[Ka_Feosh]

I must say that while constructive change to any tabletop system is a good thing I'm extremely not looking forward to them sacking 3rd Ed.'s open gaming license.

In other words, any 4th edition material you post on any forum anywhere is automatically the intellectual property of WotC and theirs to publish without your permission.

[TrackZero]

Hey, they did some cool things in 3rd edition! Like getting rid of THAC0. And making various things completely meaningless, like alignment and dragons. Oh, wait.... :rolleyes:

Don't speak ill of the THAC! I've still got a bunch of 2nd edition books. 3rd Edition was just WoC trying to cash in.

[Deadend]

So, are they making a good computer program to make it easier for a DM, so all they need is a laptop and maybe an extra screen for player presentation? As that would be quite cool, so then players and the DM can worry less about the numbers, while still having the numbers at work.

But playing PnP over the internets... nah, it just doesn't sound as good.

[Fubl]

people have been using irc for years, usually one game channel, one Out of char channel and privates with who evers running so if its a program that allows everything cool

[snubber]

Eh, ok, so I'm not hardcore D&D, but I support this move. I like the idea of getting together with friends in my living room and playing some D&D or GURPS or whatever. Good fun. However, I'm for removing the tedium. We have the technology, let's use it. If I can sit around a table with beer 'n chips and friends, but have a laptop open that's helping me remember some weird rules, show players on map, or do some calculations, that's good news in my opinion.

[torrefaction]

I can't believe a bunch of gamers are knocking Wizards for EXTENDING their support of D&D online.

Fools.

[Soap]

I cast Improved Magic Missle +1 into the Darkness...

Because I can!

This is actually some pretty sweet news. You know what the next step is right?

1) Shadowrun

2) Battletech

3) Car Wars

4) Cyberpunk 2020

[Doctor Setebos]

Don't speak ill of the THAC! I've still got a bunch of 2nd edition books. 3rd Edition was just WoC trying to cash in.You shut your mouth, you foul 2nd Editionist!

[nnanji]

I must say that while constructive change to any tabletop system is a good thing I'm extremely not looking forward to them sacking 3rd Ed.'s open gaming license.

In other words, any 4th edition material you post on any forum anywhere is automatically the intellectual property of WotC and theirs to publish without your permission.

Incorrect. Although some interpretations of the Wizards home boards ULA does seem to read that way for things you post there. It's not very well written from what I undersatand.

If you look at the front page of http://www.enworld.org/ you will see that the Open Game License will still exist. 3rd party publishers will still be encouraged to create content for 4th edition. This appears to be a streamlining of the rules to make it more electronic friendly which will conincide with the launch of a new besic set of the miniatures next year.

Predicitions:

Character creation will be better templated. Feats, skills etc. will follow formats that allow for ease of use with electronic character generators. If anyone ever used E-tools they can see where this will come in handy.

No more iterative attacks. Star Wars Saga edition replaced them with a scaling damage bonus based on your attack bonus, I do believe.

Print books will exist side by side with electronic versions. One rumor I read was that the electronic version of the books will auto-update with errata and rule changes as they occur.

Virtual table top. This is a gimme. Now if only they could get a real random number generator this could be exciting.

Gleemax, or Myspace for dorks, will do very well for D&D and Magic fans, but not as well as Wizards hopes for other games. Frankly, when I'm playing GURPS I don't go to WOTC for information.

Anyone else know anything yet?

[Netami]

ARGRH SH!T... This is going to void all of their 3.5 material, isn't it? It was bad enough converting 3.0 rules to 3.5, now we have to worry about 3.5 to 4.0?

They'd better pull a 12 HD rabbit out of their hat with this one or else they're gonna drive D&D into the shitter. First Dungeon and Dragon magazines, now this... Sheesh.

[Fubl]

I cast Improved Magic Missle +1 into the Darkness...


2) Battletech



Try megamek its a java based program that has battletech totally copied. It also is semi unofficial supported by the guys at cataclysm games

http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=47079

I believe development has the most rules already added last i played it basically had everything up to late 3050s working

[GrinR]

I've been talking to folks about how perfect the internet would be for online D&D. Videochat, whiteboarding, and unlimited storage are all ideal tools for RPG action.

NWN has been semi-doing it for years, btw.

Also, I wonder if the 4th edition will finally go whole-hog and just release GURPS: Dungeons and Dragons and stop pretending D20 isn't a pathetic ripoff.

[11thfinger]

I have a crap-ton of 2nd edition stuff, boxed sets, books, etc... anyone here know of the best way to get rid of them and possibly make a little money? Have any of you had luck with craigslist or ebay?

[nnanji]

Also, I wonder if the 4th edition will finally go whole-hog and just release GURPS: Dungeons and Dragons and stop pretending D20 isn't a pathetic ripoff.

Nah, GURPS is owned by STeve Jackson and he hasn't put that system out for open source the way d20 did. Plus, I like my 20 siders. Rolling 3d6 for everything kinda sucks, although you do get a much smoother bell curve out of the dice.

I have a crap-ton of 2nd edition stuff, boxed sets, books, etc... anyone here know of the best way to get rid of them and possibly make a little money? Have any of you had luck with craigslist or ebay?

I doubt they're worth all that much unfortunately. Most of the die hard 2nd edition people have probably bought them already.

[Netami]

There's a subsection on the wizards.com/dnd forums that has a place to sell or trade old materials, I do believe.

[OrangePulp]

I've been talking to folks about how perfect the internet would be for online D&D. Videochat, whiteboarding, and unlimited storage are all ideal tools for RPG action.

Oh, it can be great playing tabletop over the net. With OpenRPG (http://www.openrpg.com/) and voicechat, it's not all that much different from being in the same room. In some cases easier, as the gm can upload maps, simply copy/paste descriptions and such, etc. Not to mention that it's a lot quicker when you have to roll a lot of dice.

[Roc Ingersol]

Again, that's the point of D&D. ;)
I thought the point was hanging out and entertaining yourself for a few hours?

[Netami]

The point is to slay the dragon.

[The Bashar]

And I just purchased a 3.5 PH.

[Citizen Philip]

Again, that's the point of D&D. ;)

Only in 3rd edition, before you never really needed grids and rulers: that was all for tabletop strategy games. OF course, I was much younger before 3rd edition was released and perhaps I wasn't as particular about range and radii and such.

[Heretic Machine]

The way I understand it, the OGL will still live, but the 4th edition won't be covered under it. That is what I understand, from what a friend who knows about this stuff told me. He might of been wrong. But it seemed like if you wanted to make a book compatible with 4th ed, you'll have to pay a license fee. If you publish anything compatible with it on their forums, they own it outright and can publish and profit off of it.

[LongStepMantis]

Hey, i think it's great IDEA.

The only reason I don't care for it, is because environment and atmosphere is what MADE PnP game sessions great, for my group at least.

We played AD&D & Cthulhu mostly, and when playing Cthulhu, we would play in my friend's attic, at night, lit only by candles, with various horror movie theme songs being played quietly in the background. AD&D sessions usually had the soundtrack to conan the barbarian, and more light, and usually much drinking of ale. I couldn't play a D&D style game over the net.

If you can, then have fun. I can see many ways that it would help, especially if you aren't NEAR your group.

[GrinR]

Nah, GURPS is owned by STeve Jackson and he hasn't put that system out for open source the way d20 did. Plus, I like my 20 siders. Rolling 3d6 for everything kinda sucks, although you do get a much smoother bell curve out of the dice..

Did I miss something or did someone mention 4th edition is no longer "open source"?

I also don't get the allure of open source. What was hard to find in GURPS? They had books for freakin' everything. I started to laugh at some of the obscure shit they'd release. GURPS "Riverworld"? GURPS Caveman? wtf?

D20 is still the most hokey ripoff of that system I ever saw.

[Panthera]

I have a crap-ton of 2nd edition stuff, boxed sets, books, etc... anyone here know of the best way to get rid of them and possibly make a little money? Have any of you had luck with craigslist or ebay?

If you have any Dark Sun stuff, let me know and I might buy it straight off you.

[GrinR]

Oh, it can be great playing tabletop over the net. With OpenRPG (http://www.openrpg.com/) and voicechat, it's not all that much different from being in the same room. In some cases easier, as the gm can upload maps, simply copy/paste descriptions and such, etc. Not to mention that it's a lot quicker when you have to roll a lot of dice.

Holy shit that's ugly.

I got really excited when I clicked that link. Too bad. I just don't see why it hasn't been done right at all. Placeholder "seats" with videochat windows for webcams. Most of the screen is a virtual desktop style collaboration screen aka whiteboard with "objects". Sidebar includes dice (public and private) and for the GM, miniatures, pictures, sound effects, etc.

Most of this stuff already exists in the form of business groupware, it just needs to be templated into an RPG and outfitted with a contact server.

[11thfinger]

If you have any Dark Sun stuff, let me know and I might buy it straight off you.
I have at least the main box set, and probably a couple of the source books. I'd have to look for specifics.

[Eric_T_Cheng]

The 3rd Edition (and subsequently 3.5) is a big improvement over the 1st and 2nd Edition rules (the 2nd Ed was nothing more than a bad patch).

I'm not too happy about this news since the 3rd Ed only came out in 2000 and the 3.5 rules in 2003 (and people complained a lot when that was released soon soon after 3.0).

[the Jack]

Oh you (http://www.amazon.com/Special-Handbook-Rulebook-Dungeons-Roleplaying/dp/0786934328/ref=sr_1_3/002-3914802-1241618?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187307301&sr=8-3) dirty (http://www.amazon.com/Dungeon-Masters-Guide-Special-Roleplaying/dp/0786939427/ref=sr_1_1/002-3914802-1241618?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187307301&sr=8-1) cocks (http://www.amazon.com/Monster-Manual-Dungeons-Roleplaying-Rulebook/dp/0786939435/ref=sr_1_4/002-3914802-1241618?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187307301&sr=8-4).

I was bitter for half a second, and then I realized: I'm the friggin' Dungeon Master, since when do the rules matter? :D

[Johan]

I had a helluva collection of D&D stuff back in 1980-1985. I should have kept that stuff. It might have been worth some money.

For all I know, I did keep it. It might be buried somewhere up at my folks. I also had a bunch of complicated strategy boardgames (WW II, with lots of pieces). Don't know where they are, either.

Gosh...I'm old. Can't even remember the stuff...

[Tabasco]

This news makes me very happy. I'm glad I held off on buying 3.5 stuff.

[A Lusty Alien]

I have but one thing to say...

It's a Vampire Rabbit, with big gnarly teeth!!!

(Phil, you couldn't possibly think that I had forgotten about that. Good times, good times.)

[Talltale]

And from me, let the be a resounding HUZZAH!

[Å®ÇTÌ¢ VåmÞ‡®Ë]

I had a helluva collection of D&D stuff back in 1980-1985. I should have kept that stuff. It might have been worth some money.

For all I know, I did keep it. It might be buried somewhere up at my folks. I also had a bunch of complicated strategy boardgames (WW II, with lots of pieces). Don't know where they are, either.

Gosh...I'm old. Can't even remember the stuff...
I actually played Boot Hill ( was that was it was called ?? )
I refuse to buy 4th gen books.
I get almost ALL of 3rd gen and now they want more $$, I'll pass..
The online thing sounds like it could be cool but so did DDO.

[Johan]

I actually played Boot Hill ( was that was it was called ?? )

I don't remember. :(

I've thrown away too many very cool possessions in my life. What an idiot I am...

[swiftdraw]

Yeah, the main WotC D&D boards were in a semi riot state when this hit. I think the boards might of been locked down as I can't get to them anymore.

A lot of people are pissed at this as WotC officials stated several times that 4e wasn't in development (of course, it could've been done at this point) and at least once said it most likely wouldn't hit until 2011. Then after a few poorly fielded questions that some board troll got a hold of, shits kinda hit the fan. Personally I've to much in 3.0-3.5e to switch to this right away. I'm probably going to wait a year (probably two) before I convert to see how this all pans out.

Edit: yay, the boards are back and some of the more fiery post are gone!

[Matthias]

Hmm I hope the Star Wars RPG gets an update with the new rules- they had killed the most recent d20 set, but I've heard rumors of them bringing it back soon. I'd especially like the computer program, because half my RP group is going to different schools, including our GM.

[Jukey]

The group I roll with still insists on playing AD&D (1.5) :D

[Ondo]

Hmm I hope the Star Wars RPG gets an update with the new rules- they had killed the most recent d20 set, but I've heard rumors of them bringing it back soon. I'd especially like the computer program, because half my RP group is going to different schools, including our GM.
Actually, the new Star Wars RPG (Saga edition) was released in June.

It was widely regarded as a possible sign of changes to come in 4th edition, and seemed mostly well-received. Doesn't have the computer stuff, though.

[Neon Wraith]

Sounds like they are getting around to doing what i've been doing with openRPG and various voice chat programs for several years now.


Overall I think they are just finaly getting around to putting their own stamp what the table top community has been doing themselves for years.

I just hope they can survive they coming siege of their office in seattle with the announcement of 4th edition. I know there are going to be alot of folks out there that will not be happy with 4E being released so close to 3.5E...

[BigJonno]

3rd ed changed just about everything I didn't like about 2nd. 3.5 polished it up nicely (and I didn't have many 3rd ed books, so I didn't mind buying new stuff.) I can't see what they're going to do with 4th that is going to make me want to switch, especially with the nice stack of 3.5 material I have.

[NeuroMan42]

Does not surprise me at all. Wizards already worked with Turbine completely crap on D&D with the sickeningly bad DDO game.

[Flatpicker]

Try megamek its a java based program that has battletech totally copied. It also is semi unofficial supported by the guys at cataclysm games

http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=47079

I believe development has the most rules already added last i played it basically had everything up to late 3050s working


I so want to get into this. But never seems to find the people to play against.
Fasa Interactive should have this on live with cam support.

[Fubl]

try here flatpicker : http://forums.classicbattletech.com/index.php?board=24.0
if not ill see if i can dig up some more of the campaign like server packages people had done. If not someone could always try and start up an Evil avatar megamek thread


Love the gamer tag by the way

[Rifter]

Wow... this really is too soon. This sucks. I am glad they are keeping the open license... but I have over $1000 that just became a lot less useful. :-( I like the direction they are going, but it really is too soon... and I finally got the grappling rules mostly down! :-( I don't mind buying the 3 core books, but I probably have greater than 80% of all books published to date for 3/3.5. *sigh*

[A Lusty Alien]

I just got into D&D again a year ago. I've probably sunk at least $500 on the 3.5 books.

<Heavy sigh>

Oh well, they probably won't have much more than a players manual, DM manual, Monster manual, online playing guide, and online playing software to start. That should be what, around $200 all told?

<Wince>

I can understand adding the online connectivity, I've been in a couple of D&D groups where people in the military had to leave because they were being deployed elsewhere. Designing the game so that people could play together from remote locations could be a very good thing.

[Scull]

I was at the WotC announcement yesterday and had a chance to speak to Richard Baker and Ed Greenwood today about the redesign and what they are getting up to. As far as the non-digital version goes, the OGL is still around and will be updated to 4.0, and still available for all the third party developers to use. Things will not be easily backwards compatible so for most folks, your older books are useless in 4.0 :( The concept driving 4.0 is simplification of the system and making resource management less time consuming.

To the digital side, Gleemax is the start and is MySpace for gamers, from there it goes to D&D Insider which is where Dungeon and Dragon magazines will be, and it will be the portal to all of the D&D content that gets updated. The biggest announcement is the online toolset. The new character creator is supposed to integrate ALL of the rules for every book you own. This will let you make a character without having to stress the number crunching and details that go into making a PC by hand. Every book will have a digital content version available, and once you enter your book code you get the digital version as well as the new ruleset to incorporate into the character creator software.

The next step is the online play tools. The DM can create a dungeon using tiles and the PCs can all have a custom built miniature that ties to the character sheet you built in the online tools. When you play, each player moves their character around the dungeon, and the DM reacts to the players just like at the table. The tools will have die rollers, whiteboards, voice and supposedly video chat.

The electronic side is really spectacular in the demo, but the fact that they are doing a whole new edition and killing off all the older books compatibility sucks.

[BigJonno]

The concept driving 4.0 is simplification of the system

This is what worries me. D&D does not need simplification, not by a long shot. I know a lot of people who refuse to play it because it's TOO simple (the lack of any kind of defensive roll seems to be a big sticking point.)

I guess WotC had just run out of book ideas and decided it was time to make people buy them all over again. Which is a shame, because they'd started to move in the right direction with books like Heroes of Battle and Heroes of Horror.

[A Lusty Alien]

Hmmm...

Sounds to me like either...

Video Game Kiddies were finding it too difficult to play and WotC were dumbing it down to something they could follow...

or

They decided that it would be too difficult to try to capture the entire ruleset and implement it in online play.

You know, several months ago I said in jest to the guys I play D&D with that I bet the next version of D&D is going to look an awful lot like D&D 1.0 (the original) That would be a hoot if it does. Fortunately for me, I still have my box set of the three little booklets, plus the expansion booklets.