Bioshock on Steam!!!!

[51|RandoM]

Valve Software and 2K Games send along word that Irrational's highly anticipated FPS, BioShock, is now available for pre-ordering and pre-loading via Steam (http://www.steampowered.com/v/index.php).

Valve today announced that BioShock, the highly-anticipated and award-winning first-person shooter by 2K Games is available for pre-purchase now via Steam. Starting today, gamers can pre-order BioShock on Steam (www.steamgames.com) for $49.95, and begin playing the moment the game is made available.

One of the most anticipated games of 2007, BioShock is the "genetically enhanced" first person shooter that lets players do things never before possible in the genre - turn everything into a weapon, biologically modify your body with plasmids, hack devices and systems, upgrade weapons and craft new ammo variants, and experiment with different battle techniques.

Gamers enter the game as a cast-away in Rapture, an underwater Utopia torn apart by civil war. Caught between powerful forces and hunted down by genetically modified "splicers" and deadly security systems, players have to come to grips with a deadly, mysterious world filled with powerful technology and fascinating characters. No encounter ever plays out the same and no two gamers will play BioShock the same way.

"Over the next six months, gamers will be hit with a barrage of highly-anticipated titles," said Gabe Newell, president and co-founder of Valve. "The lion's share of these great new releases will be PC games. And with the gameplay and graphic innovations featured in BioShock, it promises to be one of the most important games released in 2007."

BioShock is currently scheduled to be available via Steam and at retail on August 21 in the U.S. and August 24 in Europe. For more information or to pre-purchase BioShock, please visit www.steamgames.com

Update: The game is also available via IGN's Direct2Drive (http://www.direct2drive.com/) service.

[Evil Avatar]

No, it isn't old news. It was just announced today. I just filed it into the "Who gives a shit?" category.

[51|RandoM]

Still got that PC touch of death?

[Evil Avatar]

Still got that PC touch of death?

I just don't care for Steam. If you don't own it, you don't own it.

[H.Bogard]

Still got that PC touch of death?

This post serves as an arrow-sign pointing towards my signature.

[roboninja]

Wow, great news. I will be grabbing this tonight. So I guess I give a shit.

[digitalErich]

I love Steam. The only way you can not like Steam is if you haven't tried it in several years. It's a great platform.

[Grimmjow]

LOL

why the hell is there 2 new items of the same topic?

http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34414

[RandomViolence]

If I wasn't hellbent on a Big Daddy figurine I'd definitely be grabbing this via Steam. Viva la Steam!

[51|RandoM]

LOL

why the hell is there 2 new items of the same topic?

http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34414

Don't blame me, I didn't submit this as news, I just posted the link in the pc games forum a hair before it showed up on the main page.

[51|RandoM]

I just don't care for Steam. If you don't own it, you don't own it.

You don't own software, you own the media. You only license the software.

[tenchiker]

I just can't get over the games costing the same on steam as at retail. There should be a minimum discount of at least 5$ for not getting anything besides the actual code.

[Grimmjow]

Don't blame me, I didn't submit this as news, I just posted the link in the pc games forum a hair before it showed up on the main page.

No no no, I'm not blaming you, I'm just saying :D

[Evil Avatar]

Don't blame me, I didn't submit this as news, I just posted the link in the pc games forum a hair before it showed up on the main page.

I fixed it and/or moved it. I figured if someone cared, it was news.

I'm not sure why anyone would buy a game via Steam... paying the full $49.95 for a game they can pick up at retail for $39.95 on launch day (or during the launch week) seems pretty silly to me and if you are even a little patient, you will find it for even cheaper on a GoGamer 48 Hour Madness Sale a couple of months from now.

Six months from now the retail box will be in the $20.00 range.

Can you see now why I'm not a fan of Steam? Why pay more than retail for something you don't really own and you can get cheaper both during the launch and then even cheaper a few months later?

[51|RandoM]

Convenience.

You get it the instant it is available and you don't have to deal with brick&mortar or mailorder delivery hassles.

You don't own the game either way. Just read the EULA if you think otherwise.

I also don't think there is any reason to expect digital distribution to mean lower pricing, the world doesn't work that way.

I bought Half-Life 3 or 4 times, just because I'd loan out the game or throw it away thinking I was done with it, or because my disks would be in Memphis when I was in NYC or vice versa. Steam is great for me.

[ChaosDent]

No word about managing the dmeo on Steam? Boo Gamespy :(

If the game is playable on my PC I will be picking it up through Steam. If it's not, I'll be weighing the costs/benefits of a 8800 GTS vs an Xbox 360

[Evil Avatar]

You don't own software, you own the media. You only license the software.

That is subject to debate. If you purchase an Xbox 360 copy of BioShock, Microsoft can never "prevent" you from playing the game as long as your Xbox 360 hardware lasts (no jokes about that one, please).

If you purchase a retail boxed PC version, Irrational and Microsoft can't prevent you from playing the game as long as your PC lasts -- or until some new OS comes out that doesn't run that game.

If you purchase it Via Steam and Valve goes out of business a year from now -- you are fucked. You own nothing and you will have nothing to play.

As long as I have the physical media in my hands, I do technically "own" a copy of the game that I can play and/or transfer to another person. When you are done playing BioShock on Steam, can you go onto Ebay and sell your copy to someone else?

[Kagger]

I love steam, but one thing that irks me is my log in name is my old email address, kagger007@earthlink.net (which we are about to lose due to our DSL provider. Now, the email address on the account is my main gmail, but the log in name is stuck as the email. I was tempted to spend an extra 20 bucks when buying the Source package to get all the games on a new account, but 20 bucks is 20 bucks. I wish there was a way to transfer games to a different account (I already have just Kagger registered to myself on another email)

Does anyone know if you can transfer from account to account?

[Mr.Green]

Why pay more than retail for something you don't really own and you can get cheaper both during the launch and then even cheaper a few months later?
Because PC gamers will try to avoid the outside world and social interactions at all costs?

/ducks
/runs

[Evil Avatar]

Don't get me wrong. Steam is awesome for older games, but I wouldn't purchase a new game that way.

[protocol_image]

I just want to add a point in the Steam column: Never having to find install discs.

I've rebuilt my computer twice since buying Half-Life 2, and all I have to do is install Steam. Presto! There's my games! Well, not exactly "presto". I have to wait for them to download.

[drakkarim]

fuck steam and their lock on your purchase after 90 days, can't sell the game after that.

why the hell would i pay retail without all the retail items?

[Lima Beans]

awesome! I should have bought mine via steam.

[51|RandoM]

If you purchase it Via Steam and Valve goes out of business a year from now -- you are fucked. You own nothing and you will have nothing to play.

As long as I have the physical media in my hands, I do technically "own" a copy of the game that I can play and/or transfer to another person. When you are done playing BioShock on Steam, can you go onto Ebay and sell your copy to someone else?

If Valve goes out of business somebody else will pick up the rights or the community will be permitted to reverse engineer the authentication method. I don't have any worries about that particular issue.

You're correct on the transfer/sell issue, but then again, as somebody who believes that he is licensing a game, not buying it, I'm not comfortable selling it anyways. It is only a matter of time before the industry cracks down on resale of software, imho.

If you're so set on physical media, make a backup copy. Steam supports that.

[kid cabelgo]

I fixed it and/or moved it. I figured if someone cared, it was news.

I'm not sure why anyone would buy a game via Steam... paying the full $49.95 for a game they can pick up at retail for $39.95 on launch day (or during the launch week) seems pretty silly to me and if you are even a little patient, you will find it for even cheaper on a GoGamer 48 Hour Madness Sale a couple of months from now.

Six months from now the retail box will be in the $20.00 range.

Can you see now why I'm not a fan of Steam? Why pay more than retail for something you don't really own and you can get cheaper both during the launch and then even cheaper a few months later?

Man you're going to be miserable in a decade or so when pretty much everything has moved to digital distribution.

[LarsenNET]

I just want to add a point in the Steam column: Never having to find install discs.

I've rebuilt my computer twice since buying Half-Life 2, and all I have to do is install Steam. Presto! There's my games! Well, not exactly "presto". I have to wait for them to download.

I agree 100%. I love the fact that no matter what PC I play on work, home, laptop, whatever all I have to do is load steam and let it do it's thing. Never have to worry about media, patches, NOCD patches, etc.

I was really hoping System Shock 1 & 2 would come out via steam. Games go on sale via steam all the time so expect Bioshock to do the same.

[Mozgus]

If you purchase it Via Steam and Valve goes out of business a year from now -- you are fucked. You own nothing and you will have nothing to play.

First, won't happen anytime soon.

Second, what the fuck are you talking about? Steam has an offline mode. And even if by some misfortune you are too stupid to find a Steam Installer exe from other methods after the supposed death of Steam and the site,...well you shouldn't using a PC if you aren't capable of searching.

Speaking of searching, search for PacSteam. It's another option if such a tragedy were to occur.

The only truth you speak is that pricing should be less than retail. 20-40% less. You aren't paying for the materials of a physical copy, and you aren't paying for the handling the publisher provided in the whole process. So what the fuck? I really doubt that 20-40% of the cost is going to that very minor bandwidth you used to download the game one time.

[Evil Avatar]

Man you're going to be miserable in a decade or so when pretty much everything has moved to digital distribution.

I'm not in the least bit worried. It will be significantly more than a decade before anything moves away from physical media. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool.

The bulk of people don't even have broadband and/or internet of any kind.

How is Elecrtronic Arts going to sell those 5 Million copies of Madden to people with no internet access?

Will it happen eventually? Perhaps, but not in the next 10 years.

[Varsity]

It's seven or eight pounds more expensive in England than Amazon's retail box, but I got it thought Steam anyway. I don't want the stress of it being delivered, sitting with it while it copies from the DVDs, having to go through 2K's untested online auth, then keeping up to date with patches. Plus, I refuse to give into retailer extortion (which the price very much is).

If you purchase it Via Steam and Valve goes out of business a year from now -- you are fucked. You own nothing and you will have nothing to play.

Adding to Random, Valve have a Steam patch for that exact circumstance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_%28content_delivery%29#Possibility_of_system _failure). There really is nothing to worry about.

BTW:
http://steamgames.com/v/gfx/subs/452/capsule_lrg.jpg
That is awesome.

[KidNicarus]

To further backup Evil's point: Steam ran great for me for about 4 years. Then, one day I tried to login and the software told me my account was disabled. I checked the Steam support page to find out what the situation was and it informed me that I was either a cheater or that some one tried to hijack my account. Neither situation seemed plausible. I don't cheat at anything, including videogames and I have several firewalls in place and I have never handed out my account info to anyone.

I've emailed Steam support about this issue 4 times and have not recieved any kind of reply. According to ancedotal evidence on the internet, I have a snowballs chance in hell of retrieving my account.

So now I have several games that I payed for, but I can't play due to the fact Steam shut my account down. Not to beat a dead horse, but if you don't own the media, then you don't own the media.

[Varsity]

Someone stealing your CD key is no less likely.

[Evil Avatar]

To further backup Evil's point: Steam ran great for me for about 4 years. Then, one day I tried to login and the software told me my account was disabled. I checked the Steam support page to find out what the situation was and it informed me that I was either a cheater or that some one tried to hijack my account. Neither situation seemed plausible. I don't cheat at anything, including videogames and I have several firewalls in place and I have never handed out my account info to anyone.

I've emailed Steam support about this issue 4 times and have not recieved any kind of reply. According to ancedotal evidence on the internet, I have a snowballs chance in hell of retrieving my account.

So now I have several games that I payed for, but I can't play due to the fact Steam shut my account down. Not to beat a dead horse, but if you don't own the media, then you don't own the media.

You aren't the only one with this problem. I know a lot of other people have run into this. I think even my friend Steve (Pancake Rabbit) ran into a similar problem with his account.

Perhaps, if Steam accounts were more secure this wouldn't be an issue, but Valve's servers have been hacked how many times now???

[drakkarim]

TNot to beat a dead horse, but if you don't own the media, then you don't own the media.

very true, with these kinds of services, you're not buying anything, you're just borrowing for full price.

granted, you can always make a backup of your library through steam, but why the hell should i pay for my own media when i could've just bought the retail for the same price and had a much nicer version anyway, with some extras to boot (insturctions, box, case/etc).

[Sarconix]

The only truth you speak is that pricing should be less than retail. 20-40% less. You aren't paying for the materials of a physical copy, and you aren't paying for the handling the publisher provided in the whole process. So what the fuck? I really doubt that 20-40% of the cost is going to that very minor bandwidth you used to download the game one time.

As I recall, the issue is that publishers won't allow the online distributors to undercut the price, even if you are technically getting less. They want you to think that this is a $50 product no matter where you get it from; it's not Valve who gets that extra money. Similar to how iTunes has DRM in large part because the music industry demands it, not because Apple wants it.

[Blog]

Just canceled my GoGamer pre-order and ordered it through Steam. I'll start pre-loading it when I get home. Personally, I love Steam for pretty much all the reasons other folks have listed here; no discs (either for installs or playing), games are always patched, I can download and play the games on any computer I'm on, etc. Plus I'll be playing BioShock Monday night @ midnight. Might need to stock up on espresso to get myself to work on Tuesday. :)

As for not "owning" the software, it's on my machine to do with as I please. I can burn off all the game files any time. Even if Valve's servers died tomorrow, I can still play all the games in offline mode.

[Varsity]

Perhaps, if Steam accounts were more secure this wouldn't be an issue, but Valve's servers have been hacked how many times now???

Valve's servers are not the Steam servers - those have never been breached. It's a ridiculous suggestion anyway: who would want to hack Steam and get the CIA on their back to modify a couple of people's account?

As I recall, the issue is that publishers won't allow the online distributors to undercut the price, even if you are technically getting less.

It's generally retailers these days, actually.

[TrackZero]

No, it isn't old news. It was just announced today. I just filed it into the "Who gives a shit?" category.

Seconded. It's nice to see I suppose, but doesn't affect me.

[Evil Avatar]

Just as an example. I just got GoGamer's new 48 Hour Madness Sale. Halo for $7.90 and Halo 2 for $19.99.

Halo 2 has only been out for a couple of months. Do you think Valve will be selling BioShock for $19.99 three months from now? Not a chance in hell.

[Varsity]

Is that really relevant here?

As as far as I'm concerned those kinds of things are hardly ethical either. If your money isn't going to anyone who put any effort into the game, you may as well pirate it.

[Furtive]

Good news for Valve but I won't be helping them out on this one. I don't mind buying certain things on Steam but for a game like Bioshock I want to own the game and it's physical data incarnation. I would also like to own it for less than $50 which I'm sure I will be able to do the first week the game is out. Will I be playing it at 12:01am on release night? Hell no! I'll be sleeping! The alarm goes off at 5:30 ya damn jobless kids!

[roboninja]

I will agree with everyone on the price issue. Digital distribution should be cheaper than physical media, no doubt. That being said, I am a new Steam convert, and liking it a lot. I will be purchasing Bioshock via Steam, simply for the convenience factor.

[GigaFuzz]

Edit: I'm a dumbarse. Nothing to see here...

Edit 2: To make this less of a pointless post, I'm now undecided as to what platform I want to buy Bioshock on. Maybe I'll make up my mind when I finally get to play the demos. Haven't had a chance to play the 360 demo yet, and hopefully the PC demo will be out soon. I'm a fan of Steam, but I think the 360 might be able to do more justice to the game than my PC.

[PrivateJohn]

Just like itunes, the music are overpriced...

[captainstrombosis]

Just like itunes, the music are overpriced...

Yes, but atleast on Itunes I can single out the song I want. I'm willing to pay more for that convenience alone. With so much crap being put on CD's the Good songs are the exceptions on the CD. Not the majority.

Sorry about thread jack.

[51|RandoM]

The retailers won't stock the game if it is available for less via digital distribution.

oh, and btw:

http://www.digitaluploader.com/1/ff276175979e98b64cfcd68f7843ef7a.jpg

[Aneurhythmia]

Just as an example. I just got GoGamer's new 48 Hour Madness Sale. Halo for $7.90 and Halo 2 for $19.99.

Halo 2 has only been out for a couple of months. Do you think Valve will be selling BioShock for $19.99 three months from now? Not a chance in hell.

Only been out a couple of months? I assume you're talking about the Vista version, but it's irresponsible to suggest that Xbox sales have no influence on the price that the market will bear.

[Dirty Harry]

Just as an example. I just got GoGamer's new 48 Hour Madness Sale. Halo for $7.90 and Halo 2 for $19.99.

Halo 2 has only been out for a couple of months. Do you think Valve will be selling BioShock for $19.99 three months from now? Not a chance in hell.

The fact that you compare halo 2 to bioshock, is interesting.

[CptTripps]

Just like itunes, the music are overpriced...

Overpriced? I don't understand that at all. I bought some sublime last night, I will listen to them for a very long time. If $0.99 for a song is expensive I would hate to have your job.

Bioshock on Steam, I personally think that kicks ass. I really do like steam, could give a rats ass about boxes cluttering up my limited gamer space and do love the fact that I never have to look for CD's. Steam takes up about 20GB of my Raptor drive right now.

[Varsity]

http://www.digitaluploader.com/1/ff276175979e98b64cfcd68f7843ef7a.jpg

That's hideous, Random. :)

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/3545/bioshockisherebs3.png

[Kagger]

Just as an example. I just got GoGamer's new 48 Hour Madness Sale. Halo for $7.90 and Halo 2 for $19.99.

Halo 2 has only been out for a couple of months. Do you think Valve will be selling BioShock for $19.99 three months from now? Not a chance in hell.

Hey Evil, thanks for the heads up on Halo 1, I've wanted to play this for a while and picked it up.

[GrinR]

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/1272/steam8cyfm8.gif

[timmyd]

I like digital distribution. I don't like digital control. What if a game you like gets banned because of content? Will Steam let you play it still?

Then there's Valve changing the game to make it more palatable to bigger audience. What if you like it the way it is? Do you have to supplicate to the moron masses?

I believe mechanisms such as Steam are meant to build control so that they can charge the amount people will bear versus the market.

[ZephidsEmbrace]

I love Steam, myself. Pre-loading now. Even though I'll have my first classes starting on the following Tuesday at 9:40, I'll be up playing at midnight for at least an hour or two. Just to get me interested in the game.

And I love GrinR's gifs too.

[Orphiuchus]

I was about to buy this via steam when I noticed the "available the 24th!" logo, and the 54.99 price tag.

I'm American goddamnit! Just because I deploy to Spain shouldn't mean I have to wait through their ridiculous delayed releases and pay their insane 5 buck premium!

Just another day in the Corps. Sigh.

[sprankton]

I am getting mine via steam. I have always loved digital distribution. After the many many years of CD breaking, losing an install disk, losing CD keys, the whole 9 yards it is nice to see Steam do this.

I am pre-ordering it now, but I will agree that it should be cheaper by at least $5.

[Netami]

Going the steam route. Yeah they might go out of business, no I am not going to go to the store for it. I'll chance the chicken littles if it means I don't have to deal with the scummy public.

And hell, anywhere I go that I can sit down and log into Steam with, I can get that game installed. No CDs, no DVDs, nothing but clicking and waiting. This is my kinda move.

[cp#]

Holy hell I know how I am getting this game. $10 less than the 360

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/1272/steam8cyfm8.gif

That was relevant during the 1.6 beta

[Mr.Green]

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/1272/steam8cyfm8.gif

Oh. My. God.

We're fucking junkies and they know it. Hell, they could charge an extra $10 and we'd pay it just to be sure we can play it The Moment It Is Released.

[Varsity]

Steam has downloaded 5GB of the game with just 1.5GB of bandwidth. Not bad!

What if a game you like gets banned because of content? Will Steam let you play it still?

Yes.

I'm American goddamnit! Just because I deploy to Spain shouldn't mean I have to wait through their ridiculous delayed releases and pay their insane 5 buck premium!

It's done by where you are, not who you are. They don't ship retail copies off for expats, do they?

[GrinR]

That was relevant during the 1.6 beta

It's just as relevant today. The fact is that Steam users are paying for convenience. That's great, but they're trading actual goods for convenience (ala McDonalds) and ultimately helping to put the next generation of consumer-fucking apparatus in place. It's the same as people who buy used games at Gamestop. Convenient? Yes. Helping to perpetuate a shit system? Definitely.

I used to have to rant about how we were getting less and less in our boxes. No manual. No jewel case. No map. Less and less all the time. Now people happily click a button to have their credit card charged and get -nothing- but the game on their screen and praise the convenience!

Not me, no sir. Not on my watch.

[Orphiuchus]

It's done by where you are, not who you are. They don't ship retail copies off for expats, do they?
Actually, the US version will show up on base for proper American prices in a few weeks. I'll probably have to grab it then.

[Netami]

You guys are a bit ridiculous about all of this... I could pay to buy a collector's edition and, wow, get a cool action figure but I have no desire for it. I bought the collector's edition of Burning Crusade and I read the art book in the bathroom over the course of a week and I almost never bring out that in-game pet they had. The mousepad was a plus, but my point is that I'd rather have convenience of location than fluffy extras added in.

I don't see either choices dying out anytime soon; you'll be able to buy your Ultra Editions and get your designer-signed "Making of" DVDs included in the box in 5-10 years just as you do now.

[Varsity]

Actually, the US version will show up on base for proper American prices in a few weeks. I'll probably have to grab it then.

Maybe the DOD should set something up with Valve then. :)

[51|RandoM]

For years the only thing I've been paying for is the game anyways. I throw away the box and manuals(which are worthless nowadays anyways thanks to the people turning strategy guides into a revenue stream) and bury the media in the back of the closet once I've installed and applied a nocd patch.

Not really sure why people expect to get more for their money instead of less. Guess inflation is a word from a language they do not comprehend. I'm pretty sure Bioshock required a hell of a lot more effort to create than the games I paid $50 for 5 years ago. I guess the devs should just swallow that, doesn't matter if they have to live on beans and rice and live in a cardboard box.

Don't get me started on those bastards in the soda companies, I can remember paying 5 cents for a soda!!!!

[goc_sin]

Just ordered... this save me a trip to the store. Woot!

[Delenda]

The main reason I like Steam is that copy protection isn't an issue. I can install a game on 2 computers in two different places and I don't have to fuck with no-cd patches or even worse things like starforce (damn TrackMania). It also updates games automatically, which is nice for forgetful people like me, especially on multiple computers.

[GrinR]

You guys are a bit ridiculous about all of this... I could pay to buy a collector's edition and, wow, get a cool action figure but I have no desire for it. I bought the collector's edition of Burning Crusade and I read the art book in the bathroom over the course of a week and I almost never bring out that in-game pet they had. The mousepad was a plus, but my point is that I'd rather have convenience of location than fluffy extras added in.

I don't see either choices dying out anytime soon; you'll be able to buy your Ultra Editions and get your designer-signed "Making of" DVDs included in the box in 5-10 years just as you do now.

Spoken from the mouth of one who has never even seen bound manuals.

My friend, I'm not talking about rip-off "Collector's Editions". I'm talking about buying a game that comes with what you would call a "Primus Strategy Guide" inside. Back in the day, we called it a manual. I'm talking about getting games in jewel cases that had inserts that showed the name of the game on the side, so you could easily catalog your games on a bookshelf. I'm talking about cloth maps that you could actually USE and weren't just to "look neat."

It makes me weep to think that there's a whole generation who don't know any better.

[UWCrash]

With PAX at the end of next week, this could have been the difference between PC and 360 for me (since my 360 red ringed Sunday morning and I bought a new one Tuesday). Depending on just how long it is (knowing mileage may vary), getting to it Monday night would've been sweet. Then I noticed the timer was ticking down to 1pm Pacific on Tuesday.

No Thanks.

[GrinR]

Not really sure why people expect to get more for their money instead of less.

It's our duty as consumers. It's people like you who apparently will take whatever you're given and thankya sah, yessah, I shore like yo shoes today missah their way through their purchasing that make the vendors lick their lips and unzip their pants.

[51|RandoM]

I'm getting 800KB/s off of Steam, this will be a quick preload. Download the entire game in 10% of the time it took me to get just the demo off of Live!

That screen I posted earlier wasn't from my PC, btw.

[51|RandoM]

It's our duty as consumers. It's people like you who apparently will take whatever you're given and thankya sah, yessah, I shore like yo shoes today missah their way through their purchasing that make the vendors lick their lips and unzip their pants.

I don't see it that way.

You want it to not be profitable to make videogames and somehow expect people to keep making them even though they make less and less money doing so.

If I were your employer and gave you a salary decrease every year how many years would you work for me?

[Citizen Philip]

It's an FPS, what could they put in the box I give a shit about? I have on a shelf behind me a collection of manuals and booklets: they are only useful when I have to dig out a fucking ID code, YET AGAIN to play the game.

Cloth map? Please. I'd rather find a scanned version of the actual map with highlighted interactive points, allowing me to actually find useful information than trying to determine if the badly printed 4 colour map is showing me a stream or a road.

This one, on Steam for me. Besides, what the fuck has a retail store done for me lately, other than try to shove used games down my throat, pretending it's the next best thing?

[Libuke]

Spoken from the mouth of one who has never even seen bound manuals.

My friend, I'm not talking about rip-off "Collector's Editions". I'm talking about buying a game that comes with what you would call a "Primus Strategy Guide" inside. Back in the day, we called it a manual. I'm talking about getting games in jewel cases that had inserts that showed the name of the game on the side, so you could easily catalog your games on a bookshelf. I'm talking about cloth maps that you could actually USE and weren't just to "look neat."

It makes me weep to think that there's a whole generation who don't know any better.

To me it's the fact I no longer get these things in the box that I would rather just get the game from steam, there is nothing left for me in the box anymore but the game and I can get that and not worry about having to have the CD/DVD in the drive to play.

Although recent THQ games (Stalker and Company of Heroes) don't need the CD/DVD in the drive which has been a pleasant surprise. I like a physical copy as much as the next person but having to constantly switch CD/DVD is just asking for me to break one, which steam eliminates the need for.

Well proofreading that I see I said the same thing twice, O' well.

[GrinR]

I don't see it that way.

You want it to not be profitable to make videogames and somehow expect people to keep making them even though they make less and less money doing so.

If I were your employer and gave you a salary decrease every year how many years would you work for me?

No, I simply do not care whether or not it's profitable for the vendor. It makes zero difference to me if they are gaining or losing money. All I care about as a consumer is whether or not I'm getting maximum value for myself. If I can get it for FREE and it's the BEST, I have reached my goal.

It's the vendor's job to worry about profits. Trust me, he's not worried about my wallet either.

[cp#]

It's just as relevant today. The fact is that Steam users are paying for convenience. That's great, but they're trading actual goods for convenience (ala McDonalds) and ultimately helping to put the next generation of consumer-fucking apparatus in place. It's the same as people who buy used games at Gamestop. Convenient? Yes. Helping to perpetuate a shit system? Definitely.

I used to have to rant about how we were getting less and less in our boxes. No manual. No jewel case. No map. Less and less all the time. Now people happily click a button to have their credit card charged and get -nothing- but the game on their screen and praise the convenience!

Not me, no sir. Not on my watch.

Fuck a manual and jewel case and a map. I want to play a game not look at a God damned box. Dare I say digital distribution is not just convenient but a lot greener than driving to a store and purchasing a game

[Netami]

Please, you have no idea what my gaming history is like. I may not have feevishly opened an Ultima game and wondered at it's contents, but I did for Baldur's Gate. And while other children were reading Goosebumps, I was marveling at the Warcraft 2 manual, or the Ultrima Underworld handbook. I don't know anyone else that framed their box of Daggerfall because it had some shiny skeleton lich guy on it, either.

All of that, and I can still proudly say I'd rather have direct downloads available for this sort of thing. Bioshock is going to be a great game, but it is not the type of game that I'd want to cherish the box of. Yeah, some people will want stuff like Return to Castle Wolfenstein's tin box with cloth medal in it, some people will want to just play the damn game.

Bioshock falls under the "play the damn game" category in my book. I don't want to pin up it's maps, I want to tear ass through them.

[Johan]

My neck hurts.

*left--right--left--right--*

[51|RandoM]

All I care about as a consumer is whether or not I'm getting maximum value for myself. If I can get it for FREE and it's the BEST, I have reached my goal.

Then just pirate your PC games and be done with it.

[BigJonno]

I liked the Steam special edition of Half Life 2. I got the game hassle-free AND I got a big box of goodies in the mail. Awesome.

[Citizen Philip]

Why is it that those who declare PC gaming to be dead are the ones getting really worked up over this? Anyone who seems to play games on the PC are either ambivalent or excited at the prospect.

[Citizen Philip]

I liked the Steam special edition of Half Life 2. I got the game hassle-free AND I got a big box of goodies in the mail. Awesome.

Which reminds me that Stardock is better than Steam. You can buy the game at full price and download and play immediately, and if you want they will mail you the CD(s).

Of course.. Stardock has a small more specific catalog than Steam.

[sprankton]

I liked the Steam special edition of Half Life 2. I got the game hassle-free AND I got a big box of goodies in the mail. Awesome.

I did the same, but I hate how the posters have lines :( oh well how else were they going to fit it in.

[GunnyMo]

I just don't care for Steam. If you don't own it, you don't own it.

I agree with you on newer titles. Old stuff you can't buy in stores anymore? Steam is great for it.

I'm still of the old fashioned crowd that like a box, manual and some cool cover art to adorn my shelves for new games. It's exciting to take off that shrink wrap, bitch about how the security seal comes off in little slivers, and hear that first "CRACK!" of the little circle in the middle of the case holding the disc in place as you push it down to get the game out. For some of us, I think, a new game is a total experience not just the play time. ;)

[51|RandoM]

Word is that a PC demo is coming tomorrow, FYI.

Hmm, and now word is back to whenever. nevermind.

[jpublic]

UUUGH. I am now mired in indecision. This sucks.

On one hand, I *really* want to play the game on launch day, and not possibly wait 1-3 days for us to get it here in SK.

On the other hand, I'm actually kind of interested in getting a box and media for this game. I'm told the manual is quite extraordinary.

On the gripping hand, I seriously loathe disc-based CP and having to deal with boxes, even ones for games I treasure.

GAH. I cannot decide! Curse my indecisive nature!

[Banacek]

I couldn't agree more with 51|Random on this issue. Also GrinR, buying a retail copy doesn't mean manuals and cloth maps are coming back. The solution I see coming down the road is having only a 'Collector's Edition' on the retail shelves and the regular game on some form of digital distribution. The only problem with that is that a lot of games don't deserve a 'Collector's Edition' :)

[Steve_Erhardt]

You aren't the only one with this problem. I know a lot of other people have run into this. I think even my friend Steve (Pancake Rabbit) ran into a similar problem with his account.
Yep. That was a flaming pain in the ass, to be sure, and took a few weeks to get resolved. I was really into Day of Defeat:Source at the time, too, which only aggravated me all the more since I couldn't play it.

In principle, I don't have anything against Steam, but that experience left a sour taste in my mouth that lingers to this day.

But I will say this... at least Steam is easier to deal with than EA Link, which I suffer with for the sake of my debilitating Battlefield 2142 addiction. I've got 3 copies of the game, and so wanted to buy 3 copies of the Northern Strike expansion, but I couldn't find a way to do that on a single account, so I had to make an account for each copy of the game. What a needlessly irritating bitch. Apparently they never considered somebody might actually cough up real money for multiple copies of one of their games.

Also, I have to side with those that believe getting it digitally should be cheaper. Yes yes, bandwidth costs money, but you cannot look me in the eye and tell me with a straight face it's still not significantly cheaper for them considering there's no tangible media, manual, box, or cost of shipping/stocking being factored in.

I still remember reading messages from devs/publishers back when digital distribution was just beginning to form as an idea, about how great it would be for everybody because it would all be cheaper without all the associated costs of the usual distribution.

Now, I realize that's hardly legally binding concrete or anything, but come on... they weren't talking about pie in the sky or anything; serious consideration had gone into this and they weren't just making this shit up. But to date, I've yet to see it realized.

"Oh, we have digital distribution now. Let's have this available for download."

"Yep. And don't forget, selling it this way is a fuckton cheaper, so we can pass on those savings to the consumer like we mentioned."

"Um... hold up on that. We could pass those savings on to the consumer, or we can just keep charging the same price as brick and mortar stores and tell them it's still a good deal because they'll be able to play it instantly on release day, instead of taking a half hour longer to pick it up at the store. They'll go for that. Seriously."

They're certainly entitled to make as much moola off the sweat of their brow as they can, but come on... they can do better than this for digital. Even $5 lousy dollars cheaper would probably be enough to entice me to do it, and they'll still be making a more than robust load of profit.

[Wadmaasi]

On the gripping hand

Damn Moties!

[chirz]

I was about to buy this via steam when I noticed the "available the 24th!" logo, and the 54.99 price tag.

I'm American goddamnit! Just because I deploy to Spain shouldn't mean I have to wait through their ridiculous delayed releases and pay their insane 5 buck premium!

Just another day in the Corps. Sigh.

It could be worse, you could be at an army base with only a handful of other marines ;) On the plus side, a good ol' fashioned American best buy is fifteen minutes away with plenty of Bioshock to sell on the 21st.

[Varsity]

They're certainly entitled to make as much moola off the sweat of their brow as they can, but come on... they can do better than this for digital. Even $5 lousy dollars cheaper would probably be enough to entice me to do it, and they'll still be making a more than robust load of profit.

For the third time in this thread, this is because of retailers fighting to keep their slice of the pie. They'll refuse to sell a game or take as much stock if it's cheaper on digital.

[Banacek]

For the third time in this thread, this is because of retailers fighting to keep their slice of the pie. They'll refuse to sell a game or take as much stock if it's cheaper on digital.

Your facts, or "truth" as you call it, are not wanted in this thread!

[Johan]

Your facts, or "truth" as you call it, are not wanted in this thread!

Most "truth" is just "opinion" misspelled.

[KingGorilla]

I have been gone all day, so this is a bit delayed; HOWEVER, I so fucking called this.

[GrinR]

Then just pirate your PC games and be done with it.

Company lackey and criminal advocate? What's next, developer assassination? You live in a grim world, Random.

[GrinR]

Please, you have no idea what my gaming history is like. I may not have feevishly opened an Ultima game and wondered at it's contents, but I did for Baldur's Gate. And while other children were reading Goosebumps, I was marveling at the Warcraft 2 manual, or the Ultrima Underworld handbook. I don't know anyone else that framed their box of Daggerfall because it had some shiny skeleton lich guy on it, either.

All of that, and I can still proudly say I'd rather have direct downloads available for this sort of thing. Bioshock is going to be a great game, but it is not the type of game that I'd want to cherish the box of. Yeah, some people will want stuff like Return to Castle Wolfenstein's tin box with cloth medal in it, some people will want to just play the damn game.

Bioshock falls under the "play the damn game" category in my book. I don't want to pin up it's maps, I want to tear ass through them.

Fair enough. Just don't complain about microtransactions or "timed-license ownership" because that is precisely where online ownership is going at light-speed. If you can't see the progression, I can't do much for you.

[Varsity]

Most "truth" is just "opinion" misspelled.

Take2 even admitted that retailers are doing everything they can to slow down digital distribution. They even threaten, they even threatened Take2, “if you guys drop the price on your digital side, then we’re not going to be taking as many games, or ANY games, on the retail side”. The retailers right now are doing everything they can to keep their share of the pie.
http://podcast.next-gen.biz/?p=10

[Beelzebud]

I must be stupid. When I buy games on Steam, I back them up on a DVD-R, with a steaminstaller.exe file, so I can play them in the event of Armageddon.

What have I been thinking this whole time? I didn't realize if I didn't own it, I didn't own it. I must be screwed now...

[51|RandoM]

Company lackey and criminal advocate? What's next, developer assassination? You live in a grim world, Random.

I guess I just don't understand your point of view.

I'm a firm believer in TANSTAAFL which just doesn't support your "I want things to cost me exactly the same every generation even though the production costs go up every generation." point of view.

If games were sandwiches I'd be saying that I think you place an absurd amount of value on the bag when the sandwich is what you're eating. :)

[KingGorilla]

I must be stupid. When I buy games on Steam, I back them up on a DVD-R, with a steaminstaller.exe file, so I can play them in the event of Armageddon.

What I have I been thinking this whole time? I didn't realize if I didn't own it, I didn't own it. I must be screwed now...

Strange how your conceptualization of Armageddon involves working power stations.

[Varsity]

Strange how your conceptualization of Armageddon involves working power stations.

He has a wind generator and powerful lungs.

[Beelzebud]

Strange how your conceptualization of Armageddon involves working power stations.

I plan on making an exercise bike electrical generator. Duh!

[GrinR]

My neck hurts.

*left--right--left--right--*

http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/5773/bugsdaffyhuntingsi5.gif

[GrinR]

I couldn't agree more with 51|Random on this issue. Also GrinR, buying a retail copy doesn't mean manuals and cloth maps are coming back. The solution I see coming down the road is having only a 'Collector's Edition' on the retail shelves and the regular game on some form of digital distribution. The only problem with that is that a lot of games don't deserve a 'Collector's Edition' :)

My point isn't that the old stuff is coming back, it's that we are recieving less product over time. I'm barking about the progression, not the current status.

[GrinR]

I guess I just don't understand your point of view.

I'm a firm believer in TANSTAAFL which just doesn't support your "I want things to cost me exactly the same every generation even though the production costs go up every generation." point of view.

If games were sandwiches I'd be saying that I think you place an absurd amount of value on the bag when the sandwich is what you're eating. :)

Acronym check, aisle Random!

I've heard that old chestnut for years now, and naturally I don't care at all how much it costs. Not my problem. If I did care, however, I would point out the massive savings in stripping down the product to DVD cases and just a disc. I would point out the massive difference in copies sold over time. I would point out the ability to license an engine, deferring cost. I would point out the consolidation of the industry to what, 5 major players?

Naturally, you can be a groupie for the vendors if you want. I'm a groupie for the consumers.

[51|RandoM]

My point isn't that the old stuff is coming back, it's that we are recieving less packaging over time. I'm barking about the progression, not the current status.

fixed. heheeh. :)

[Banacek]

My point isn't that the old stuff is coming back, it's that we are recieving less product over time. I'm barking about the progression, not the current status.

Honestly, if games get to the point that you're worried about (microtransactions and limited time ownership) I'll just stop playing games. I have a feeling that most people our age feel the same way. So for now I'll enjoy the benefits of digital distribution and not worry so much about if they're going to shoot themselves in the foot down the road.

[murpes]

I love steam, but one thing that irks me is my log in name is my old email address, kagger007@earthlink.net (which we are about to lose due to our DSL provider. Now, the email address on the account is my main gmail, but the log in name is stuck as the email. [cut]
Does anyone know if you can transfer from account to account?

I have the same problem, my steam id is an email account from several iterations ago. Unfortunately, unless they've just changed their policy, you cannot change your logon id. :(

[Citizen Philip]

My point isn't that the old stuff is coming back, it's that we are recieving less product over time. I'm barking about the progression, not the current status.

You also do a very good job of not broaching the topic of free information available for most games after sale: namely step-by-step guides to each level, break-down of important game elements do meticulous detail, etc. all of which was never each remotely possible before the net and would be unheard of in a retail only environment. What good is a poster, when you can snap up screenshots and artwork off of websites with impunity, block-copy text and save it to documents or interactive menus to navigate elements of the game that would have otherwise been sold to you in a print guidebook?

All of which is is free, and in a readily accessible format, and most importantly can be modified as the game is changed by updates or new information as details come to light. Hardcopy gets old and out of date: assuming changes weren't made after the printing and isn't factually incorrect on release.

The Old Stuff is obsolete, and your nostalgic glasses have a very high prescription.

[GrinR]

You also do a very good job of not broaching the topic of free information available for most games after sale: namely step-by-step guides to each level, break-down of important game elements do meticulous detail, etc. all of which was never each remotely possible before the net and would be unheard of in a retail only environment. What good is a poster, when you can snap up screenshots and artwork off of websites with impunity, block-copy text and save it to documents or interactive menus to navigate elements of the game that would have otherwise been sold to you in a print guidebook?

All of which is is free, and in a readily accessible format, and most importantly can be modified as the game is changed by updates or new information as details come to light. Hardcopy gets old and out of date: assuming changes weren't made after the printing and isn't factually incorrect on release.

The Old Stuff is obsolete, and your nostalgic glasses have a very high prescription.

Is there a compelling reason I should not have both? Why must I choose between what you propose (go online, print my own posters, etc.) and what I used to get for the same price?

I feel like I'm eating crazy pills! I'm arguing for people (us) to get more for the same money and there's resistance?

[Citizen Philip]

Wait a second, I'm sorry. You didn't get the memo?

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:TOl33Hw10oKWgM:http://www.the-trades.com/hprice/DVD/OfficeSpaceTheMemo.jpg

Retail game purchasing is dead.

[KingGorilla]

Wait a second, I'm sorry. You didn't get the memo?

http://www.the-trades.com/hprice/DVD/OfficeSpaceTheMemo.jpghttp://www.the-trades.com/hprice/DVD/OfficeSpaceTheMemo.jpg

Retail game purchasing is dead.

Get it? I wrote it.

[51|RandoM]

I feel like I'm eating crazy pills! I'm arguing for people (us) to get more for the same money and there's resistance?

If they wrap my sandwich in twice as much paper it doesn't taste any better. :)

We are getting more for our money... more convenience.

http://www.digitaluploader.com/1/4e3bccf7b0410aca6911895564f7c2b9.jpg

That took me about 3 minutes to purchase and 15 minutes to download. If I want it on another machine, I login to Steam and download it there. If there is a patch available, Steam will tell me. If there is extra content available, Steam will tell me. I didn't have to go to a store, I didn't have to travel at all, I didn't have to pray I was home when UPS/Fedex got around to my neighborhood. I'll be able to play the game moments after it is officially released.

I don't have an attachment to packaging, skimpy outdated manuals, or media I'd prefer to never use again.

Your complaint about getting less for your money when it comes to what is "in the box" is across the board, not just specific to digital distribution. At least with digital distribution you're getting convenience, whereas at retail you're not getting anything extra yet still paying the same price. If you really believe in your stance you won't buy any games, retail or digital distribution.

[noname989]

I just don't care for Steam. If you don't own it, you don't own it.

What? :confused:

[GrinR]

If they wrap my sandwich in twice as much paper it doesn't taste any better. :)

We are getting more for our money... more convenience.

Apparently if you get half the sandwich it does? Hell, it takes half the time to eat - BONUS, right?

Sad.

[digitalErich]

mmm cheese steaks for dinner tonight boy

[51|RandoM]

Apparently if you get half the sandwich it does? Hell, it takes half the time to eat - BONUS, right?

Sad.

You missed the part where sandwich=game. I kind of thought that was obvious. Oh well, nevermind. :)

[Banacek]

Apparently if you get half the sandwich it does? Hell, it takes half the time to eat - BONUS, right?

Sad.

You're crazy. You make it sound like you read the manuals and played with the cloth maps the same amount of time as you played the game. That's insanity. You also ignore all the benefits of digital distribution in your arguments.

[Sonic Wang]

I for one welcome our Steam overlords.

Last week it was off ALL iD games for $60 USD, then it was Painkiller Gold for $10 USD and now this week it's Bioshock for $50 USD and will be available 3 days eariler than the AUS release date!

[KingGorilla]

Originally Posted by Evil Avatar View Post
I just don't care for Steam. If you don't own it, you don't own it.

What? :confused:

I will give Evil the Benefit of the doubt. I find a hard time believing that he really feels that he "owns" a game that he has on a disc. Aside from a few pieces of paper and a hunk of plastic. There is no difference between a game that comes in a box, and a game that comes from a download. And to be perfectly honest, the quality of manuals these days is horrid(it seems that most folks force you to buy the Prima guide, or go online for a lot of things anyway). A Disc is merely a delivery method, not something you own.

[GrinR]

You're crazy. You make it sound like you read the manuals and played with the cloth maps the same amount of time as you played the game. That's insanity. You also ignore all the benefits of digital distribution in your arguments.

Who said anything about time? I said I used to get more for my money and now I get less - and I don't like it.

As for benefits of digital distribution, I see very few benefits. The convenience of pre-downloading so you can have the game on your computer the instant it goes "live" is a benefit, I suppose, for those who absolutely have to have it instantly.

Don't have to keep track of media? Really? That's a concern? I guarantee you anyone citing that as a positive still has shelves packed with media (DVD, music, books, etc.) that somehow manages to be found when necessary.

What benefits are worth paying effectively extra for?

[roboninja]

All I know is, I have it preloaded on Steam now, The countdown clock, it haunts me...

[GrinR]

I will give Evil the Benefit of the doubt. I find a hard time believing that he really feels that he "owns" a game that he has on a disc. Aside from a few pieces of paper and a hunk of plastic. There is no difference between a game that comes in a box, and a game that comes from a download. And to be perfectly honest, the quality of manuals these days is horrid(it seems that most folks force you to buy the Prima guide, or go online for a lot of things anyway). A Disc is merely a delivery method, not something you own.

The same argument goes for microtransactions, yet the outcry is 100 times greater for that. The idea is that you have a pre-conceived notion of what it is you "should" get for your money. If you buy Bioshock now and they release an "unlock key" that opens up a whole new level (that was there on the disc the whole time) it's seen as a ripoff.

Mark my words - we'll be staring at a far more vendor-friendly environment soon enough and many of the folks who are quite happy now will complain as if their support for the infrastructure had nothing to do with it.

The next step is timed licenses and chopped-up per-play content, folks. When it comes you won't have the option to buy retail anymore because you'll have demonstrated that the market doesn't want it anymore. Enjoy paying $20 for each level of Half-Life 3, and a yearly license fee to play online.

[KingGorilla]

Grin R, try playing an EA sports game online after the new version is released.

Companies who screw over their fan base are the ones who will lose the most. There are developers and publishers who genuinely care about their audience. Mark Rein spoke until he was purple on that matter, and how it is better for business than nickel and dimeing your fans to death.

And are you really able to fool yourself that gaming, music, or movies are not already completely in the hands of the vendors?

I will give you a concrete example of why your fear will not happen. Digital copies will inevitably be cheaper than physical copies. Year Zero on Itunes was 10 bucks. I paid 22 dollars for the Disc, because I am an album art whore. More than double the price so I could have a piece of plastic.

[cp#]

Your more for the money argument is fucking hilarious and pointless. Time to stop arguing about it. This game is coming out on Steam and lots of people are going to buy it because it's like... sitting on a store shelf only that shelf is my fucking monitor.

[Stormwatcher]

Fair enough. Just don't complain about microtransactions or "timed-license ownership" because that is precisely where online ownership is going at light-speed. If you can't see the progression, I can't do much for you.

It's really cute how GrinR spouts nothing but stupid slippery slope falacies and crappy analogies. I don't know why smart people bother arguing with that kind of fool.

Anyways, I love steam, I really do, because where I live 2K Games and THQ have no local publisher, so I actually DEPEND on Steam in order to get most of their games (Company of Heroes, Dawn of War Platinum, Titan Quest, Bioshock etc) without resorting to expensive imports. I was really thrilled to know that Bioshock was on Steam, because that meant I'd get to play it soon, for a fair price and legitimately.

Brand new games might be full priced on steam, but the prices quickly drop. Evil Avatar might think otherwise, but that's just because he's got zero clue about Steam or online distribution. (I love the site, I respect the man, but he really eats a lot of crow). I mean, I bought the entire id catalog for 60 bucks, and that's cheaper than I'd pay for Doom3+expansion on a B&M store.

Steam is an online store, and they can't always determine the prices. The publishers have a say on that, too, as many other people pointed out.

I'd like to remind you guys that not all online distribution is as fucking crappy as the shit you guys get from EA and on Xbox Live. Steam is a proof that it can be a viable option, one that actually offers advantages for the consumers.

[Stormwatcher]

The same argument goes for microtransactions, yet the outcry is 100 times greater for that. The idea is that you have a pre-conceived notion of what it is you "should" get for your money. If you buy Bioshock now and they release an "unlock key" that opens up a whole new level (that was there on the disc the whole time) it's seen as a ripoff.

Mark my words - we'll be staring at a far more vendor-friendly environment soon enough and many of the folks who are quite happy now will complain as if their support for the infrastructure had nothing to do with it.

The next step is timed licenses and chopped-up per-play content, folks. When it comes you won't have the option to buy retail anymore because you'll have demonstrated that the market doesn't want it anymore. Enjoy paying $20 for each level of Half-Life 3, and a yearly license fee to play online.

Poor thing, he's confusing Xbox Live with Steam.

They're different things, silly boy.

[Steve_Erhardt]

For the third time in this thread, this is because of retailers fighting to keep their slice of the pie. They'll refuse to sell a game or take as much stock if it's cheaper on digital.
For my first response to this third time in the thread: I'm not arguing that at all.

All I'm saying is, for all the chest-beating that went on a few years ago about how much cheaper games would be with a digital purchase, we ain't seein' it.

I don't think knocking $5 off the retail shelf price is going to tip any applecarts, but at the same time, it'd be a step in the right direction to convince me I might as well get it digitally as opposed to at retail, where I'd get a printed manual (however pamphlet-like it may or may not be) and the software already on a disc.

I may be over-simplifying here, but it's like buying something from an Ebay store... getting something that way is rarely a deal. Sure, the "buy it now" price is $10 cheaper than retail, but you're lucky if the bogus shipping they charge only brings your total expense to purchase back to retail price (and usually it's even a little higher). That's not a deal. That's paying retail and waiting days for it to be shipped to you (this assumes the seller is on the ball) instead of paying retail at the store and having it in your hands immediately.

[GrinR]

Poor thing, he's confusing Xbox Live with Steam.

They're different things, silly boy.

They're different things RIGHT NOW. LRN 2 REED.

Once more, I'm pointing out that there was a past (where games cost what we're paying now, only you got everything you get now plus most of the things that are now bundled as the 'Collectors Edition') a present (where you can buy retail and get the stripped down version), and a future (where what I described will happen.)

I spent the past 10 years griping about the loss of quality in the retail package and now it's so true that rubes like you don't even see the difference. So, now I'm telling you how it's going to be AGAIN, and 10 years from now I'll talk to kids who argue that microtransations and time-based licenses are awesome because "who wants to play an old game anyways LOLZ!"

[KingGorilla]

I know, I was trying to give credence to your slippery slope argument, rather than dismissing it for the inherently flawed reasoning, because I like you so much.

[Johan]

The next step is timed licenses and chopped-up per-play content, folks.

Isn't that already happening?

Chopped up? HL:Episode 1 & 2; Sam and Max (haven't played it).

[cp#]

HL2 Episode 2 is such a bad deal :rolleyes: Three games for 20 bucks oh Lord it's like Horse Armor all over again!!!

[Johan]

HL2 Episode 2 is such a bad deal :rolleyes: Three games for 20 bucks oh Lord it's like Horse Armor all over again!!!

When it first went to retail (episode 1), what did you get...and for how much?

[Sonic Wang]

Who said anything about time? I said I used to get more for my money and now I get less - and I don't like it.

If a retail game came with a fresh piece of dog shit, you'd say you're getting more for your money.

[GunnyMo]

Is there a compelling reason I should not have both? Why must I choose between what you propose (go online, print my own posters, etc.) and what I used to get for the same price?

I feel like I'm eating crazy pills! I'm arguing for people (us) to get more for the same money and there's resistance?

I'm 100% behind ya, GrinR! You are absolutely correct that we get less for the same price (and often times a higher price!).

It boggles my mind as well that people want to waste their own time and money (printer ink is expensive y'all) to basically buy stuff that should come with said product.

Digital downloads cater to mankind's basic and very strong instinct of laziness. Paying the same price for less product simply because we don't have to leave the house. :rolleyes:

Keep fighting the good fight, GrinR, and know there are those of us who are with you in the rebellion!

[cp#]

When it first went to retail (episode 1), what did you get...and for how much?

I got Ep. 1 for free from eVGA after I had to RMA my video card. :p

[Johan]

I got Ep. 1 for free from eVGA after I had to RMA my video card. :p

Well...keep that going, then!

[Sloth]

i like steam, i wish i could get any game off it

my only concern is if my accounts ever hacked, how will i get it back, right now theres close to 100 dollars tied up in that account.

[KingGorilla]

I am gonna get Ep2, Team Fortress 2, and Portal for free as well.

[Stormwatcher]

They're different things RIGHT NOW. LRN 2 REED.

Fuck you, that's case of slippery slope fallacy, there's nothing to prove you're right. LRN 2 HAVE A POINT, noob.

Once more, I'm pointing out that there was a past (where games cost what we're paying now, only you got everything you get now plus most of the things that are now bundled as the 'Collectors Edition') a present (where you can buy retail and get the stripped down version), and a future (where what I described will happen.)
You're so full of shit. Games cost a lot more in the early 90's. Wing Commander MSRP was around 60, 65 bucks, and today a pc game is 50 bucks. So we're actually paying less, if you factor inflation.

We get less fluff with our games today because the business got a lot bigger and the corporations wanna lower costs and maximize profit. That was already happening long before digital distribution was a twinkle in Gabe Newell's eye. Get your facts straight. You suck at being a prophet. Those are two parallel processes, and online distribution most definitely DIDN'T cause the shrinking of manuals. You should actually blame your beloved B&M stores and GAME BOXES, because it was the fact that shelf space became a prized commodity and publishers decided to make boxes smaller in order to please Wal*Mart and EBStop is the real culprit in the whole "smaller manuals" crime.

BTW, the coolest manual made in the last 10 years was made for a digital-distribution-only game, Wing Commander Arena, and you can even download the manual for free. So you're actually getting MORE manual-goodness now.

I spent the past 10 years griping about the loss of quality in the retail package and now it's so true that rubes like you don't even see the difference. So, now I'm telling you how it's going to be AGAIN, and 10 years from now I'll talk to kids who argue that microtransations and time-based licenses are awesome because "who wants to play an old game anyways LOLZ!"

Stop assuming things, grin, you're making all the wrong assumptions.
I actually bought the 3-ring binder manual for Falcon 4.0 because my budget version didn't include a hard copy. I actually bought the cool extra expanded manual for Lock On. So fuck you again. I like manuals, I still have all of them, and all the boxes too. I'm not some freaking neophyte who's discovering gaming, and lately Steam has been a godsend for older game collectors.

But hey, thanks to steam I can:
- buy and play games I couldn't buy and play before;
- be free of crap like starforce;
- install and play my games in different computers without bothering with carrying disks, cd-keys and shit like that;
- I just double click the damned short cut and play the fucking game, without having to fuss over finding the right disk, putting it on, waiting for the spin-up, waiting for the fucking copy protection scheme to verify the game;
- I need not worry about the fucking copy protection conflicting with random things (like it has happened once with a random Windows auto-update that forced my to find cracks for almost 10 different games).
- I don't need to worry about losing that goddamned jewelcase with the cd-key sticker, nor do I need to get pissed off when they miss-print that said sticker.
- I can buy several older games that are otherwise out of print...

the list goes on. And all I did give up were bulky cardboard boxes the hard copy of the manual. A fair trade, if you ask me. You have no facts to support your hysterical cries of wolf....

[KingGorilla]

i like steam, i wish i could get any game off it

my only concern is if my accounts ever hacked, how will i get it back, right now theres close to 100 dollars tied up in that account.

http://support.steampowered.com/cgi-bin/steampowered.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=197&p_created=1093809052&p_sid=nLB-LkJi&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX 3Jvd19jbnQ9OSZwX3Byb2RzPSZwX2NhdHM9JnBfcHY9JnBfY3Y 9JnBfc2VhcmNoX3R5cGU9YW5zd2Vycy5zZWFyY2hfbmwmcF9wY WdlPTEmcF9zZWFyY2hfdGV4dD1oYWNrZWQ*&p_li=&p_topview=1

[Stormwatcher]

If a retail game came with a fresh piece of dog shit, you'd say you're getting more for your money.

Meh, GrinR is too dumb to realize that saving time is actually saving money.

[KingGorilla]

Meh, GrinR is too dumb to realize that saving time is actually saving money.

He is just grumpy. And that is one of my leading reasons. Save gas, save time, save frustration at other people and retarded clerks(whom I do not deem people).

[GunnyMo]

Meh, GrinR is too dumb to realize that saving time is actually saving money.

By paying the same price as retail for new games? :confused:

BioShock retail: $49.99
BioShock Steam: $49.95

Ok, technically, you save $0.05 so I guess you win that argument.

Lost Planet retail: $39.99
Lost Planet Steam: $39.95

Damn, those nickels are adding up!

Civ IV retail: $39.99
Civ IV Steam: $39.95

Fifteen cents! Woot!

Tomb Raider Anniversary retail: $29.99
Tomb Raider Anniversary Steam: $29.95

So, on four newer titles you saved time and $0.20. Congrats!

However, for the anit-social Morlocks who wouldn't leave their house even if it was on fire and avoid talking to anyone that isn't digital, yeah, I can see how saving time and money with digital downloads is a good thing. At minimum, I would think that getting rid of boxes, manuals, cases, shrink wrap, production, shipping and vendor profit margins would be worth saving more than $0.05, don't you?

Like I said before, Steam is good for older titles that are hard to find or non-existent but for new stuff you're getting the steam powered shaft. But hey, everyone needs some sort of delusion to make them happy. ;)

[Banacek]

However, for the anit-social Morlocks who wouldn't leave their house even if it was on fire and avoid talking to anyone that isn't digital, yeah, I can see how saving time and money with digital downloads is a good thing. At minimum, I would think that getting rid of boxes, manuals, cases, shrink wrap, production, shipping and vendor profit margins would be worth saving more than $0.05, don't you?

I'm anti-social because I like convenience? Your argument fails.

[GunnyMo]

I'm anti-social because I like convenience? Your argument fails.

Anti-social convenience for some is over priced loss of product for others.

My main point is that, other than convenience, you get nothing extra from Steam. They make considerably more money by your downloading. I think there is room for both the digital and retail alternatives but in no way should they be priced the same. Steam should be, at minimum, at least 10-15% cheaper than retail as they are saving tons of money on the stuff I mentioned in the post above. Companies that want to foster customer loyalty should pass on some (not all) of that savings to the consumer.

But, as many people have proven by leaps and bounds here, they don't want obvious savings: they want it fast and now. So how many people would pay $54.99 for new games on Steam? Heck, you don't have to mess with going out of the house, CD keys, boxes, retail clerks or anything else, right? By any logic you should pay more on Steam for that convenience. If I were a betting man, I'd say that Valve is thinking the same thing for the future.

[GrinR]

Fuck you, that's case of slippery slope fallacy, there's nothing to prove you're right. LRN 2 HAVE A POINT, noob.


You're so full of shit. Games cost a lot more in the early 90's. Wing Commander MSRP was around 60, 65 bucks, and today a pc game is 50 bucks. So we're actually paying less, if you factor inflation.

We get less fluff with our games today because the business got a lot bigger and the corporations wanna lower costs and maximize profit. That was already happening long before digital distribution was a twinkle in Gabe Newell's eye. Get your facts straight. You suck at being a prophet. Those are two parallel processes, and online distribution most definitely DIDN'T cause the shrinking of manuals. You should actually blame your beloved B&M stores and GAME BOXES, because it was the fact that shelf space became a prized commodity and publishers decided to make boxes smaller in order to please Wal*Mart and EBStop is the real culprit in the whole "smaller manuals" crime.

BTW, the coolest manual made in the last 10 years was made for a digital-distribution-only game, Wing Commander Arena, and you can even download the manual for free. So you're actually getting MORE manual-goodness now.



Stop assuming things, grin, you're making all the wrong assumptions.
I actually bought the 3-ring binder manual for Falcon 4.0 because my budget version didn't include a hard copy. I actually bought the cool extra expanded manual for Lock On. So fuck you again. I like manuals, I still have all of them, and all the boxes too. I'm not some freaking neophyte who's discovering gaming, and lately Steam has been a godsend for older game collectors.

But hey, thanks to steam I can:
- buy and play games I couldn't buy and play before;
- be free of crap like starforce;
- install and play my games in different computers without bothering with carrying disks, cd-keys and shit like that;
- I just double click the damned short cut and play the fucking game, without having to fuss over finding the right disk, putting it on, waiting for the spin-up, waiting for the fucking copy protection scheme to verify the game;
- I need not worry about the fucking copy protection conflicting with random things (like it has happened once with a random Windows auto-update that forced my to find cracks for almost 10 different games).
- I don't need to worry about losing that goddamned jewelcase with the cd-key sticker, nor do I need to get pissed off when they miss-print that said sticker.
- I can buy several older games that are otherwise out of print...

the list goes on. And all I did give up were bulky cardboard boxes the hard copy of the manual. A fair trade, if you ask me. You have no facts to support your hysterical cries of wolf....

I understand now. You're simply rude. Clarification noted.

[GrinR]

He is just grumpy. And that is one of my leading reasons. Save gas, save time, save frustration at other people and retarded clerks(whom I do not deem people).

True, I am grumpy. Work this week is a bitch.

That said, you can do all of what you describe, KG, by ordering on Amazon. Get a prime account and you get next day delivery for $3, no tax. I pay less for my games and get them release day in the retail package.

Best of all worlds, no?

[Stormwatcher]

What part of "time is money" you fail to grasp?
Did you not read the LOOOONG list of advantages I made? Those things are added value.
What about gas, taxes, etc.?
What about the fact that several of those games weren't even released where I live?

You guys do realize that the list below is ADDED VALUE, that's worth something?
- buy and play games I couldn't buy and play before;
- be free of crap like starforce;
- install and play my games in different computers without bothering with carrying disks, cd-keys and shit like that;
- I just double click the damned short cut and play the fucking game, without having to fuss over finding the right disk, putting it on, waiting for the spin-up, waiting for the fucking copy protection scheme to verify the game;
- I need not worry about the fucking copy protection conflicting with random things (like it has happened once with a random Windows auto-update that forced my to find cracks for almost 10 different games).
- I don't need to worry about losing that goddamned jewelcase with the cd-key sticker, nor do I need to get pissed off when they miss-print that said sticker.
- I can buy several older games that are otherwise out of print...

Even if I pay about the same (which is NOT true), and get no printed manual, I still think that all that is worth it.

[51|RandoM]

That said, you can do all of what you describe, KG, by ordering on Amazon. Get a prime account and you get next day delivery for $3, no tax. I pay less for my games and get them release day in the retail package.

Best of all worlds, no?

Nope. If I have to stay at home to sign for a delivery that is time(money) I can't bill to my client(s).

[GunnyMo]

What part of "time is money" you fail to grasp?
Did you not read the LOOOONG list of advantages I made? Those things are added value.
What about gas, taxes, etc.?
What about the fact that several of those games weren't even released where I live?

You guys do realize that the list below is ADDED VALUE, that's worth something?


Even if I pay about the same (which is NOT true), and get no printed manual, I still think that all that is worth it.

How are you not paying the same for BioShock on Steam as at retail? And I'm talking about actual MSRP not all of the infinite variables anyone can throw in regarding gas, time, oxygen used, wear and tear on the hinges of your car door, the rubber loss on the bottom of your shoes, etc.

[GrinR]

Nope. If I have to stay at home to sign for a delivery that is time(money) I can't bill to my client(s).

Er. Ship to your work? Unless you work out of a van? Down by the river?

[Stormwatcher]

True, I am grumpy. Work this week is a bitch.

That said, you can do all of what you describe, KG, by ordering on Amazon. Get a prime account and you get next day delivery for $3, no tax. I pay less for my games and get them release day in the retail package.

Best of all worlds, no?

Amazon does not ship games outside NA.

[GrinR]

Amazon does not ship games outside NA.

Another good reason to live in NA.

[GunnyMo]

Another good reason to live in NA.

Uh oh, here comes the patriotism speeches. Way to go, Storm. :p

[GrinR]

Uh oh, here comes the patriotism speeches. Way to go, Storm. :p

Steam helps the turr'ists win.

[Steve_Erhardt]

You're so full of shit. Games cost a lot more in the early 90's. Wing Commander MSRP was around 60, 65 bucks, and today a pc game is 50 bucks. So we're actually paying less, if you factor inflation.
:eek::eek::eek::eek: I dunno about that...

I didn't have a single friend I can remember that didn't buy Wing Commander the week it came out, and I'm here to tell you, not a one of us paid 60 bucks for it! IIRC, we paid like $40-45 (which put a serious hurt on my personal economy back in those days), and unless I just phased in here from some alternate, cheaper reality, I don't recall ever paying MORE for a game in the past... prices have only gone up my entire life (starting with pong). If I half-ass some inflation calculations into it, games are still more expensive today than they were in my foggy past, though I'll grant as time goes on, that margin of difference continues to shrink. Maybe by the time I'm back in diapers and eating smashed peas again, the quote above will be demonstrably true... but right now... not so much. *shrug*

[GrinR]

:eek::eek::eek::eek: I dunno about that...

I didn't have a single friend I can remember that didn't buy Wing Commander the week it came out, and I'm here to tell you, not a one of us paid 60 bucks for it! IIRC, we paid like $40-45 (which put a serious hurt on my personal economy back in those days), and unless I just phased in here from some alternate, cheaper reality, I don't recall ever paying MORE for a game in the past... prices have only gone up my entire life (starting with pong). If I half-ass some inflation calculations into it, games are still more expensive today than they were in my foggy past, though I'll grant as time goes on, that margin of difference continues to shrink. Maybe by the time I'm back in diapers and eating smashed peas again, the quote above will be demonstrably true... but right now... not so much. *shrug*

He's not totally off. Prices have wildly fluctuated in the past. I believe I paid nearly $60 for Darklands. I know I paid $80 for Ultima 9 DRAGON Edition (what an unholy waste - I got them back on the PCXL review though!) I think games have relatively speaking remained about the same price over time.

Part of Random's point earlier was that this is an oddity vis a vis inflation, so in fact we're getting games effectively cheaper, considering the production value in the box (so to speak).

[Stormwatcher]

How are you not paying the same for BioShock on Steam as at retail? And I'm talking about actual MSRP not all of the infinite variables anyone can throw in regarding gas, time, oxygen used, wear and tear on the hinges of your car door, the rubber loss on the bottom of your shoes, etc.

That's silly. You have to compute all the direct, relevant costs, otherwise it's an empty point.

You also failed to address the point I made that the Steam version is actually better value for my money, considering all the great advantages of having a digital version.

And, personally, Steam is a hell lot cheaper than buying a boxed copy, because I'd have to import it.

[Stormwatcher]

Another good reason to live in NA.

Well, I DEFINITELY agree with that.

And sorry if I hurt your feelings or anything, but hey, your points did suck.

[KidNicarus]

Hey Steve, er Pancake Rabbitt. Just out of curiousity how did you get Steam to reinstate your account? I created an incident report twice about a week ago and they still haven't gotten back to me.

[KingGorilla]

True, I am grumpy. Work this week is a bitch.

That said, you can do all of what you describe, KG, by ordering on Amazon. Get a prime account and you get next day delivery for $3, no tax. I pay less for my games and get them release day in the retail package.

Best of all worlds, no?

Preaching to the choir. But didn't you just prove our points about retail? Amazon cuts out a lot of costs that retail force upon you? Most of my purchases are GoGamer and Amazon. Steam is fast becoming a Sadly, I no longer live in a building with a doorman and mail room so packages tend to come at inconvenient times. f

[Steve_Erhardt]

I created an incident report, waited, nothing happened. The next week, I think I emailed them asking what was going on, still nothing. Emailed again later that week, still nothing.

Third week came, I emailed again (I couldn't find a phone number to call, which also pissed me off), still heard nothing, and then at the tail end of the third week, I got an email saying it was resolved, here's your new password, change it when you log in next, etc etc.

So, a long frustrating silence ending in an unexpected single email saying all was well again.

I seem to recall also asking Phil (Evil Avatar) if he could rattle some cages over there for me as well, but I'm not sure if he got the chance, as it was the very next morning I got the email saying it was fixed.

So... that's my story... nothing much there to really help, I realize, but maybe it was the periodic pelting of emails I threw their way that got the ball rolling. Good luck!

[KingGorilla]

Hey Steve, er Pancake Rabbitt. Just out of curiousity how did you get Steam to reinstate your account? I created an incident report twice about a week ago and they still haven't gotten back to me.

It seems, unfortunately, that it takes them 2 weeks to work out anything. Something as easy as real time chat would be very welcome. Account jacking is a rare but huge problem.

[51|RandoM]

Er. Ship to your work? Unless you work out of a van? Down by the river?

They can't get through security where I'm currently at.

[KidNicarus]

Thanks for your help! I'm nearing the end of week two so there should be some kind of resolution soon.

[Johan]

They can't get through security where I'm currently at.

That rules out airports, government buildings, prisons, banks, any schools or universities, the border to anywhere...

where are you working?

[sleepbox]

Steam ROCKS. Great news!

[captainstrombosis]

That rules out airports, government buildings, prisons, banks, any schools or universities, the border to anywhere...

where are you working?

7-11 Obviously. They know how to get Security RIGHT!

[GrinR]

Well, I DEFINITELY agree with that.

And sorry if I hurt your feelings or anything, but hey, your points did suck.

It's entirely possible to refute my points without resorting to vulgar personal attacks. Thanks for the apology. It's been a tough week and I think I got a little wound up here.

[GrinR]

That rules out airports, government buildings, prisons, banks, any schools or universities, the border to anywhere...

where are you working?

3D Realms

[dotbomb]

I just bought my bits off steam right now. I'm a happy boy. That's all.

[Smoof]

It's entirely possible to refute my points without resorting to vulgar personal attacks. Thanks for the apology. It's been a tough week and I think I got a little wound up here.

You've not really presented an argument beyond the Slippery Slope.

A happens
B will happen next
B is bad
Therefore A is bad

Not only is it a slippery slope, it's a strawman.

You've not even refuted anyone else's argument, but simply kept posturing your own chicken little scenario.

[Scramble]

Grabbing it off Steam. It's available 4 days before launch, and it'll be sitting there when I get home from work on Tuesday. WIN-WIN!

[Smoof]

The question I have is will it be available at 12:00AM on 8/21? I want to get it via steam, but unless I'll be able to play it at 12, I'm not going to bother. I ask, because the count down timer is off for me. Something like 4 days and 13 hours or so, which would make it sometime in the afternoon on Tuesday.

[Varsity]

I don't think knocking $5 off the retail shelf price is going to tip any applecarts

It will cause retailers to backstab Take2. Else don't you think they would have done it?

Hey Steve, er Pancake Rabbitt. Just out of curiousity how did you get Steam to reinstate your account? I created an incident report twice about a week ago and they still haven't gotten back to me.

Did you get the confirmation e-mail?

[Steve_Erhardt]

It will cause retailers to backstab Take2. Else don't you think they would have done it?
How do we know this? Nobody's tried it yet. Until we actually see it happen, it's reasonable that you might assume so, but that's about it; and we all know the saying about assuming.

Again, all I'm saying is there was much ado about how we would be able to purchase games cheaper via download, and now that it's a well-established method, it's yet to happen so I fail to see how paying the same price and then forking out more to print off any reading material I'd have gotten in the retail box is a much better option for me.

For me, it's just not enough of a convenience to make up for that. Any fear of retailer backlash on the publisher's part (so far unsubstantiated, mind you) doesn't convince me they still couldn't give digital buyers a decent $5 lower price point.

And jumping tracks just a little... I'm 100% in sync with Grinr's assertions about the "good old days" when we would pay normal retail and get a game whose box was fairly bursting with tchocke goodness.

[Stormwatcher]

How do we know this? Nobody's tried it yet. Until we actually see it happen, it's reasonable that you might assume so, but that's about it; and we all know the saying about assuming.

Again, all I'm saying is there was much ado about how we would be able to purchase games cheaper via download, and now that it's a well-established method, it's yet to happen so I fail to see how paying the same price and then forking out more to print off any reading material I'd have gotten in the retail box is a much better option for me.

For me, it's just not enough of a convenience to make up for that. Any fear of retailer backlash on the publisher's part (so far unsubstantiated, mind you) doesn't convince me they still couldn't give digital buyers a decent $5 lower price point.

And jumping tracks just a little... I'm 100% in sync with Grinr's assertions about the "good old days" when we would pay normal retail and get a game whose box was fairly bursting with tchocke goodness.

Thing is, publishers were already killing the cool useless crap (they're cool, I love it, but they're really useless) long before Online Distribution was possible. There's absolutely NO causal relation between the lack of cool crap and buying games online...

You guys should think: "I'm not getting the cool crap anyway, might as well get rid of all the annoyances of having a physical copy".

[Steve_Erhardt]

Thing is, publishers were already killing the cool useless crap (they're cool, I love it, but they're really useless) long before Online Distribution was possible. There's absolutely NO causal relation between the lack of cool crap and buying games online...
I agree... I wasn't implying there was a relation, causal or otherwise. I was just lamenting the fact. ;)

You guys should think: "I'm not getting the cool crap anyway, might as well get rid of all the annoyances of having a physical copy".
My way of thinking just hasn't come around to "a physical copy is an annoyance" yet. Knock that $5 off I keep asking for, and I'll have an incentive to start re-evaluating that stance. ;)

[51|RandoM]

How do we know this? Nobody's tried it yet. Until we actually see it happen, it's reasonable that you might assume so, but that's about it; and we all know the saying about assuming.

The retailers have said that is what they'll do. Jebus, in this very thread there are references to exactly that.

Luddite whiners need to realize that games aren't going to get cheaper, regardless of distribution method. IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. It costs money to develop and maintain on online distribution channel. Somebody has to pay for that.

Production costs for AAA titles is going through the roof this generation. If you don't feel like paying for it there are plenty of 8-bit games available via emulation for you to spend your time with.

It is fairly entertaining for the luddites to accuse the realists of making "assumptions". Your entire argument is based upon the assumption that digital distribution is significantly cheaper. Your entire argument is based upon the assumption that publishers can piss of the retail channel with no repercussions.

Got news for you, game stores aren't making their money selling new games. They're making their money on the used game business. A digital distribution model deprives them of both of those revenue streams. Do you really think they'll take the massive threat digital distribution poses to their profit centers lightly?

Think again.

[Steve_Erhardt]

The retailers have said that is what they'll do. Jebus, in this very thread there are references to exactly that.
You mean... just like publishers said they'd sell them cheaper digitally? Talk talk talk... neither side's done what they claim they'd do, so 'till then all the "oh No! Cheaper digital distribution prices will wreck the world" hysteria is just exactly that.

Luddite whiners need to realize that games aren't going to get cheaper, regardless of distribution method. IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. It costs money to develop and maintain on online distribution channel.
Never argued otherwise. I'm just saying it's surely cheaper than the traditional retail channel.

Somebody has to pay for that.
Again, never argued otherwise. I just think they can still pay for that, still make a juicy profit, and still knock down the price by $5. Right now all we're seeing is that digital is different. That's a long ways away from better. ;)

Production costs for AAA titles is going through the roof this generation.
No argument there.

It is fairly entertaining for the luddites to accuse the realists of making "assumptions". Your entire argument is based upon the assumption that digital distribution is significantly cheaper.
Again, this is a belief developed in me by all the hullabaloo about how digital was going to make everything cheaper for everybody. Hullabaloo propigated by the publishers themselves. If that isn't the least bit credible, then neither is anything the "non-luddites" have been spewing this whole thread. Both sides can still be right and still be stuck with the unfortunate reality that for whatever reason, an option that should , by all rights, be cheaper, still isn't.

Your entire argument is based upon the assumption that publishers can piss of the retail channel with no repercussions.
I'm figuring you're aiming this particular one at somebody else, as I've never made that claim or anything that could be interpreted to be so... :confused:

Got news for you, game stores aren't making their money selling new games. They're making their money on the used game business. A digital distribution model deprives them of both of those revenue streams. Do you really think they'll take the massive threat digital distribution poses to their profit centers lightly?
Are you even talking to me anymore? Of course I don't think retailers would be overly happy about it, but I never claimed otherwise (nor do I really care any more for their particular comfort than they do my own, but whatever... they look out for themselves, and so I do as well). Why would you address this to me?

Think again.
I've already said I would... as soon as I see no less than a $5 reason to. :D

[drakkarim]

As for not "owning" the software, it's on my machine to do with as I please. I can burn off all the game files any time. Even if Valve's servers died tomorrow, I can still play all the games in offline mode.

BUT, should you decide/want to ever sell it after 90 days, you're SOL.

[mikeohara]

I'm gonna grab Bioshock off Steam at the end of the month. I'm already preloaded and ready to roll.