Epic asks for dismissal of Silicon Knight's Unreal lawsuit

[GunnyMo]

Epic games has fired back at Silicon Knights by filing their own documents fraught with legalese asking for the court to dismiss (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=15049) the Knights' lawsuit

Epic's motion to dismiss memorandum, sent to Gamasutra by Epic's Mark Rein, says of Silicon Knights that it "used Epic's intellectual property to develop what SK expects will be a commercially lucrative video game that it is about to publicly release," but, "having exploited Epic's intellectual property to its advantage, SK now seeks to renege on its payment obligations under the License Agreement."

"In short," reads the documents, "SK's lawsuit is a pretense. SK does not have any valid claims against Epic. SK filed suit in a bid to renegotiate the License Agreement, in the hope that Epic will prefer that to the burden of responding to discovery and associated adverse publicity."
Grab them ponchos 'cause the mud is flinging.

[HeartbreakRidge]

Yes, yes, standard legal verbiage and puffery. Let's wait, oh, six months (maybe a year) and see if after that 'discovery and adverse publicity' that the case quietly goes away after a settlement.

I'd be really surprised if this goes to a trial - in that case, even if you win, I'm not sure you have won.

[jeffbax]

I honestly don't know who I want to win.

[GunnyMo]

Yes, yes, standard legal verbiage and puffery. Let's wait, oh, six months (maybe a year) and see if after that 'discovery and adverse publicity' that the case quietly goes away after a settlement.

I'd be really surprised if this goes to a trial - in that case, even if you win, I'm not sure you have won.

Yeah, but is that going to add delays to the game?

[Johan]

Land of the lawsuit...America!

[UnderHero5]

Land of the lawsuit...America!

Isn't Silicon Knights a Canadian developer?

I mean, you're still correct by saying that, just pointing that out.

[Johan]

Isn't Silicon Knights a Canadian developer?

The lawsuit was filed in North Carolina's district court. We love our litigation here at home! :)

[mikeohara]

Isn't Silicon Knights a Canadian developer?


According to Wikipedia, their base is in Ontario in the town of St. Catharines.

Also, it should bear knowing that Epic Games' HQ is right outside of Raleigh, NC if my memory serves me correctly, hence why North Carolina is listed for Epic's part of the suit.

[Johan]

...hence why North Carolina is listed for Epic's part of the suit.

Silicon Knights filed in NC.

Gamasutra has now obtained a copy of the lawsuit, which was filed in North Carolina district court and demands a jury trial on the grounds of breach of contract regarding Unreal Engine 3 licensing.


Here. (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=14759)

ST. CATHARINES, ONTARIO, CANADA, July 19th, 2007 - Video game developer Silicon Knights, Inc. has filed suit against Epic Games, Inc. for breach of contract, fraud, and several other tort claims in federal court in Greenville, North Carolina.

http://******.com/gaming/breaking/silicon-knights-epic-sabotaged-us-280491.php

The *****= K O T A K U.

[Klade]

This should be a pretty interesting case if it actually goes to trial. I haven't looked to closely at it but it sounds like Silicon Knights claims are rather unspecific. They are going to need to show that Epic was acting unsual towards them as compared to others, and if its going to be others from engines past then they are going to need to overcome the idea that the support they are supposedly not getting is not due to technology differences.

Either way its going to be damn hard to prove unless they have some very specific actions taken by Epic that go against some written promise/contract.

[DylonCorp]

From what I've read and understood (figure around 65%), it doesn't seem that Silicon Knights has to prove that they were treated any differently, just that Epic did not provide the support necessary to SK, because they were too busy with promoting GOW.

The nastier allegation I remembered seeing was that Epic gimped UE3 support BECAUSE they didn't want anything looking as good as GOW. But that doesn't seem to be the crux of the argument in court.

[TheFlyingOrc]

There is clearly only one way to settle this.

Breakdance fight.

[Slack3r78]

Uh, isn't immediately filing for dismissal just SOP in defending a lawsuit?

[HeartbreakRidge]

Yeah, but is that going to add delays to the game?

I thought SK ditched UE3 already? Assuming that's so, I don't know how the lawsuit affects SK's development. The lawsuit/counterclaim seems to boil down to SK saying you breached your contract, we don't have to pay you what the contract says, and Epic says no we didn't, you still owe us the money.

[DylonCorp]

Slacker, yep. Just like an opening move.

Where the hell is Ox, he should be in here explaining all this to us!

[HeartbreakRidge]

Uh, isn't immediately filing for dismissal just SOP in defending a lawsuit?

Correct, as is the counterclaim. Unless SK has drooling morons for lawyers, nothing gets dismissed at this stage, so now on to the 'discovery and adverse publicity' phase.

[Talanvor]

What's interesting to me is that I wasn't even aware that SK used UE3 for Too Human. I was watching that trailer that was put on Live! and it... kinda felt, erm, weightless I guess? I mean, with GoW, you really get the sense that something is happening and the chracters are feeling it. But when that Aesir guy was getting tossed around, there was no thud. It was like there was no weight to anything. Just didn't impress, I suppose.

[Xerxes]

But if epic didn't deliver when they promised, well... I think SK brought up some frivolous stuff up on their lawsuit but I mean some of the "facts" place blame on Epic. They really could of stopped when they got all emo about their poor showing at E3. Or about using their own revenue to work on GoW. "Oh nos!"

[KingGorilla]

I honestly don't know who I want to win.

I am leaning to Epic, next gen game development is so dependent on Middleware and licensing engines like Unreal or Havok, etc. If every time a developer is unhappy with a delay(especially on a cutting edge and brand new product) and then gets litigious, that hurts a lot more people than those making the engine. Every dollar Epic spends on this suit, is another potential dollar or man hour spent on the engine, or another game. This hurts the folks at Square, Ubisoft, Eidos, and many other licensees of Unreal tech, as well as people at Epic making Unreal 3 or Gears 2. Then we gamers suffer from that shotgun effect of problems on all of those games.

I am giving SK the benefit of the doubt that their complaints are valid, but also to Epic that they could, can, and will rectify any problems as good business. They make a lot of money off of having a good name and good tech to license out. Mark would not willingly hurt that.

[Johan]

Too Human is being published by Microsoft Game Studios...any wrinkles in that? Developers rely upon publishers for cash to develop, as well as marketing, and publishers get pissed at delays (costs money). Is MS pissed at Epic and using SK to bitch-slap them? Or at least try to, behind the scenes?

[ElektroDragon]

I'm sure UE3 is a bad engine to use for everyone but Epic... just look at the turd that is Fatal Inertia. But at the time there was no alternative. Now we have id Tech 5, and let me tell you, id Tech 5 will completely blow away UE3 and be easier to use, because John Carmack was writing 3D engines when CliffyB was in kindergarten.

[Emma Peel]

Now we have id Tech 5, and let me tell you, id Tech 5 will completely blow away UE3 and be easier to use, because John Carmack was writing 3D engines when CliffyB was in kindergarten.

I would like to point out that while John Carmack is known for writing 3D engines, his engines are not known for being especially friendly to develop on. The Id engines are a very bear bones and "you get what you get" license.

Also it was only the Q3 engine which was highly adopted. This was at a time when there was really not much competition. Are there any companies using the Doom3 engine for anything? Not including Id side projects I dont think I can think of one.

Oh and another thing. CliffyB is not a programmer and does not write engines, so its kinda silly to compare him to Carmack.

[claws]

Now we have id Tech 5, and let me tell you, id Tech 5 will completely blow away UE3 and be easier to use, because John Carmack was writing 3D engines when CliffyB was in kindergarten.
CliffyB might just be a PR savvy guy with expensive hair, but Tim Sweeney from Epic is just as competent as Carmack. I don't know about UE3, naturally, but generally their engines are really well thought out.

[Nate Graves]

I'm sure UE3 is a bad engine to use for everyone but Epic... just look at the turd that is Fatal Inertia. But at the time there was no alternative. Now we have id Tech 5, and let me tell you, id Tech 5 will completely blow away UE3 and be easier to use, because John Carmack was writing 3D engines when CliffyB was in kindergarten.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/nate_graves/shutyourwhoremouth.jpg

[Virtual Machine]

Too Human is being published by Microsoft Game Studios...any wrinkles in that? Developers rely upon publishers for cash to develop, as well as marketing, and publishers get pissed at delays (costs money). Is MS pissed at Epic and using SK to bitch-slap them? Or at least try to, behind the scenes?


More likely Microsoft are pissed at Silicon Knights for their less than stellar showing thus far, thus depriving them of a piece of software that would have been a huge rock in their "post Halo 3, pre-Christmas" onslaught of stones.

It sounds to me like SK licensed a game engine they were unfamiliar with, and now they're crying foul because they couldn't wrangle what they wanted out of it without some effort on their part.

Really, if other publishers, publishers like EA and Ubi were having the same kind of problems, you think they wouldn't have gone the court route?

[Lunar Blue]

I'm sure UE3 is a bad engine to use for everyone but Epic... just look at the turd that is Fatal Inertia. But at the time there was no alternative. Now we have id Tech 5, and let me tell you, id Tech 5 will completely blow away UE3 and be easier to use, because John Carmack was writing 3D engines when CliffyB was in kindergarten.

YOU FAIL.
yaddayadda

[Goronmon]

Really, if other publishers, publishers like EA and Ubi were having the same kind of problems, you think they wouldn't have gone the court route?And maybe Epic provided an acceptable level of support to EA and UbiSoft, but since SK were ranked lower on priority scale they were ignored.

Who knows though, if we even get to the bottom of this at all, I'm sure it will take a while.

[zorper]

... Are there any companies using the Doom3 engine for anything? Not including Id side projects I dont think I can think of one.

Prey is the only one I can think of. Does Human Head have any affiliation wtih Id?

[Slack3r78]

Prey is the only one I can think of. Does Human Head have any affiliation wtih Id?

Prey was a 3D Realms pet project.

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[Virtual Machine]

It's a shame really, the Doom 3 Engine was a damn impressive piece of tech that was ahead of it's time, but it was overshadowed by Source months before any Source Engine based game even launched.

All i can think of off hand were Doom 3, Prey, and Quake 4. Even now, all three games hold up very well graphically.

[Citizen Erased]

I'm sure UE3 is a bad engine to use for everyone but Epic... just look at the turd that is Fatal Inertia. But at the time there was no alternative. Now we have id Tech 5, and let me tell you, id Tech 5 will completely blow away UE3 and be easier to use, because John Carmack was writing 3D engines when CliffyB was in kindergarten.

As others in the thread have surely said, Tim Sweeney is the man most responsible for Unreal Engine development - CliffyB was just the lead designer for Gears. I put Sweeney up there on the same level as Carmack. As for the UE3 being a bad engine to use based solely on one game - that's a load of crap. See how many titles last gen used UE2 and tell me Epic is in the business of producing bad engines to license.

[Slack3r78]

It's a shame really, the Doom 3 Engine was a damn impressive piece of tech that was ahead of it's time, but it was overshadowed by Source months before any Source Engine based game even launched.

All i can think of off hand were Doom 3, Prey, and Quake 4. Even now, all three games hold up very well graphically.

Source hasn't really caught on outside of Valve and mods either, though.

[Johan]

What is the most popular console-game engine now? Anyone know?

[H.Bogard]

Used to be Renderware... I think. UE3 might have that honour now.

[H.Bogard]

Source hasn't really caught on outside of Valve and mods either, though.

You kidding? Dark messiah, Left4Dead, the new Postal game, Vampire TM : Bloodlines and man other games use Source. Certainly a LOT more games than those using the D3 engine.

[lockwoodx]

It's an "unreal" lawsuit.... get it??

Thank you folks I'll be here all night.

[Slack3r78]

You kidding? Dark messiah, Left4Dead, the new Postal game, Vampire TM : Bloodlines and man other games use Source. Certainly a LOT more games than those using the D3 engine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_engine#Licensed_Source_games

Compare to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreal_engine_3#Unreal_Engine_3_2

[Crowe]

Who cares. ID Tech 5 is aiming high. Lets hope it gets there so we have some awesome games to play across all 3 platforms.

[Adam Blue]

I will also say that Idtech5 will be good for us. Developers will jump on and be able to do whatever they'd like. The conference was convincing.

[Micasa]

I'm sure UE3 is a bad engine to use for everyone but Epic... just look at the turd that is Fatal Inertia. But at the time there was no alternative. Now we have id Tech 5, and let me tell you, id Tech 5 will completely blow away UE3 and be easier to use, because John Carmack was writing 3D engines when CliffyB was in kindergarten.

Made by...oh yeah, Koei.

Mass Effect also uses UE3, does it seem like a "turd" to you?

[Mojopin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_engine#Licensed_Source_games

Compare to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreal_engine_3#Unreal_Engine_3_2

and...? He was comparing Source to Doom 3, everyone knows Unreal powers lots and lots of games... thanks Captain Obvious. ;)

[Royal Fool]

They should just make their games in LUA or something. :)

[Slack3r78]

and...? He was comparing Source to Doom 3, everyone knows Unreal powers lots and lots of games... thanks Captain Obvious. ;)

He was responding to my post saying that Source hasn't really caught on outside of Valve and mods. Looking at that release list, I stand by my statement.

[Johan]

He was responding to my post saying that Source hasn't really caught on outside of Valve and mods. Looking at that release list, I stand by my statement.

I found the links interesting and informative!

And not obvious to me! Thank you, General Slack3r78! ;) Everyone knows Captain Obvious is...well...you know...