ESRB in trouble with giving GTA: San Andreas only a "M" rating

[Everlost_MI]

Worthplaying (http://www.worthplaying.com/) has posted the story (http://www.worthplaying.com/article.php?sid=26554&mode=thread&order=0) of the ESRB being in trouble for failing to appropriately rate Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas as an Adults Only (AO) title. Instead, the game was rated by the ESRB as a Mature (M) title.

[Everlost_MI]

A rating system is nice but there are flaws with it like there is with any system. As a parent, if you don't take the time to become invovled in what your children are doing then the rating system is just a crutch or an excuse in my book for parenting.
So don't let the goverment or the media raise your kids, do it yourself.

/soapbox mode off

[Sammael]

This is pitiful. Hidden scenes? Because kids will really find that shit. Besides which, the game has to be modified, which is beyond Rock*'s control anway. I really think congress should get a new hobby. How about 1) balance budget 2) health care 3) food for the hungry 4) social security.

What a bunch of assholes.

[Wadmaasi]

What's the age group for an M title? I thought it was 18+. Isn't that Adults Only already?

And how can they get in trouble? The ESRB ratings are still just a guideline, not a legally-enforceable restriction, right? We don't have kids yet, so I don't pay attention to ESRB stuff.

[Playdead]

That kind of advertising is priceless to Game Companies. I wonder how many copies of 25 to Life would be sold if it weren't for the big stink about it when it comes out.

I do agree though, parents must be more involved. I always ask the people I work with that have kids with a PC/Xbox/PS2 "what games does your son/daughter play?". About 90% of the time I get the response "I don't know"...

[Goronmon]

*sigh* I guess its the job of commitees to protect kids from their parent's laziness.

[Tia]

I think you missed one important point. When the game was just violent as shit, it was ok to give it M. But once there was explicit sex, dear god, give it AO. I think that pretty much sums up the entire problem of american society, and why this country is so god damn violent.

[Cupelix]

[...]and now it has been uncovered that the game also includes explicit sexual scenes that are inappropriate for our children.Ok, that would be why it has an M rating, which implies that its not appropriate for children. Nothing in the game that you can't see in an R rated movie, which is the equivalent rating. Apparently they can't figure out what the letter M actually means.

[GunnyMo]

"M" rating says you have to be "17" or older to buy they game. All they need to do is change that to "18" and voila! no more of this "Adults Only" bs. Tia makes a great point. I have so many customers come in that think violent games are ok for their kids but as soon as you mention any type of sex or nudity they flip out and yell a vehement "no!".

In America it's ok to cut off a breast just as long as you don't show the breast! What a fucked up society.

[bapenguin]

The amount of people that need a serious beatdown just keeep growing.

[Kamalot]

The amount of people that need a serious beatdown just keeep growing.
LOL! Obviously you've been playing too much GTA. See how you want to solve the problem with violence?

[agentgray]

I have a bunch of "M" titles. When my son is in the room, I don't play them...usually not until after he goes to bed.

When he's old enough to play games, they have got to go through me first, regardless of rating. It's what my parents did and I'd like to think I turned out ok.

Parents. Parents. Parents.

I worked in retail for almost 5 years and all to often I saw a kid beg for a game and the parent didn't even bother to look at the cover. They just asked some lame question and the kid gave some lame excuse answer. Title purchased.

"Is it violent?"

"Aww, mom, c'mon. I won't do the fatalaties."

"Ok, then."

Yeah, right.

[Goronmon]

In America it's ok to cut off a breast just as long as you don't show the breast! What a fucked up society.
A more accurate statement would say its OK to cut off a breast as long as you don't show the nipple.

[Rakael]

S'right, nipples are of the devil! Of the devil I say!

[morose]

Sorry to break it to folks (especially since I agree it's messed up) but exposing teens to sex is a lot more likely to initiate sexual behavior (or more likely curiousity) as a response than violence is to make them want to be violent. One is a positive feeling shared (hopefully) between two people in consent. The other negative and confrontational in nature. So yes, in some ways there should be more concern when putting sex on display than violence if you don't want your child interested in exploring those sorts of things before you've discussed them with them. And that's a parental concern I can understand.

The ratings system also needs to work within the confines of the culture's values if it's meant to quantify anything meaningful. Otherwise it's just abitrary and worthless letters. So complaining that if our culture wasn't so messed up and anti-sex, a game wouldn't be getting AO ratings doesn't fly. Change the societal values, then you can change the ratings. Not vice versa.

[MasterKwan]

AO = no Walmart. Walmart is where most games are sold.

You know what surprised me? That God of War came and went without much notice. Topless characters, simulated sex (on the boat). Wonderful killing gameplay. Killing of innocents for heath restoration. It was exactly the kind of game I like to play but, there hasn't been a word about content. If San Andreas is AO so was "God of War"

[Goronmon]

The ratings system also needs to work within the confines of the culture's values if it's meant to quantify anything meaningful. Otherwise it's just abitrary and worthless letters. So complaining that if our culture wasn't so messed up and anti-sex, a game wouldn't be getting AO ratings doesn't fly. Change the societal values, then you can change the ratings. Not vice versa.
Well, I feel that using situations like the ratings systems is needed to explain why societal values should be changed.

[bapenguin]

LOL! Obviously you've been playing too much GTA. See how you want to solve the problem with violence?

Haha...funny thing is I haven't played a GTA since GTA 3 came out. :)

It must be Hot Shots Golf...because I've been playing a LOT of Hotshots golf lately.

[mkelehan]

This is the important thing: those scenes are NOT in the game. At ALL. It was a hoax. I look forward to everyone involved looking like a jackass.

[Racknahm]

AO = no Walmart. Walmart is where most games are sold.

You know what surprised me? That God of War came and went without much notice. Topless characters, simulated sex (on the boat). Wonderful killing gameplay. Killing of innocents for heath restoration. It was exactly the kind of game I like to play but, there hasn't been a word about content. If San Andreas is AO so was "God of War"

Also AO would mean the game would sell dysmally because people will think it's a porn game.

[Wadmaasi]

I think you missed one important point. When the game was just violent as shit, it was ok to give it M. But once there was explicit sex, dear god, give it AO. I think that pretty much sums up the entire problem of american society, and why this country is so god damn violent.
The dichotomy is even weirder given the preponderance of online dating ads (I'm beginning to think that Match.com, True, ChristianFriendFinder, SeniorFriendFinder, and their ilk are now what make the internet go 'round, not pr0n) and the market-saturation of erectile dysfunction medication. So it's not that Americans aren't thinking about sex (or, at least, being told to think about it) in favor of thinking about and practicing (?) violence. I don't claim to understand it, either.

[abso]

There is occasional nudity and violence in PG-13 movies. Perhaps we should have their ratings changed to NC-17. How about Sin City? It was already an R rated movie, cllearly though it had enough violence and nudity for it to be at least NC-"You Must Be Dead To Watch This." I really don't understand why these fucktards can't enlighten the country on how to be a parent, rather than how to join a mob screaming witch.

[Cha-Ka]

So yes, in some ways there should be more concern when putting sex on display than violence if you don't want your child interested in exploring those sorts of things before you've discussed them with them. And that's a parental concern I can understand.

So take an interest in the games your child plays and don't let them play mature games. Or you could seek to sanitize the earth to meet your specific morale needs. Take your pick. The real sick-o's here are the parents who allow thier kids to play Mature rated games but still feels the need to protect their children from sex by not speaking about it.

Maybe you missed the article that inspired this thread. It's describes how Assembly Speaker Leland Yee accuses the ESRB ratings board of failing parents by rating Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas as an Adults Only game. His contention is this game must be rated for Adult Only because it's possible (though only when users modify the game in ways Rockstar didn't intend) to see animated scenes of a sexual nature. The assumption would seem to be that games which graphically portray stabbing, immolating, or decapitating are somehow more acceptable than games that depict sexual acts. That's not only misguided...it speaks to our society's repressed nature toward sex.

[CarpeAmentum]

So yes, in some ways there should be more concern when putting sex on display than violence if you don't want your child interested in exploring those sorts of things before you've discussed them with them. And that's a parental concern I can understand.


Isn't that the point? Haven't you have discussed that with them by the time they should be even playing GTA? I mean 10-12 years of age is when that discussion is supposed to be had. I wouldnt want some 9 year old playing GTA either....

[mister_slim]

What's the age group for an M title? I thought it was 18+. Isn't that Adults Only already?
17+. It's close to Adults Only, but 17 year olds are still minors.

Anyway, it's just Yee on his soapbox.

[Cha-Ka]

So it's not that Americans aren't thinking about sex (or, at least, being told to think about it) in favor of thinking about and practicing (?) violence. I don't claim to understand it, either.

I blame the rightwing religious extremists. Fun things like games and sin have always helped to thin their numbers, which will really spoil their picnic plans for the apocalypse.

[DevDict]

In Canada, we get the same ratings as in the US (duh) so the difference between M+ and AO is 1 year (at 18 years you are legaly a major here as opposed to 21 in USA).

So.... What's the big difference between 17 and 18?

[farley2k]

AO = no Walmart. Walmart is where most games are sold.

You know what surprised me? That God of War came and went without much notice. Topless characters, simulated sex (on the boat). Wonderful killing gameplay. Killing of innocents for heath restoration. It was exactly the kind of game I like to play but, there hasn't been a word about content. If San Andreas is AO so was "God of War"

I think Tia explained it very well

When the game was just violent as shit, it was ok to give it M. But once there was explicit sex, dear god, give it AO. I think that pretty much sums up the entire problem of american society, and why this country is so god damn violent.



Another perfect example would be Manhunt. I honestly cann't think of a more violent game. Hell, you get rewarded by murdering people in the most violet way possible. Suffocating them with plastic bags, stabbing them in the eye with broken glass, etc.

When that game got an "M" rating I knew the system was pointless.

[Goronmon]

So.... What's the big difference between 17 and 18?
Its perception, MA ratings means the game is violent/sexual enough not to be for young kids. NC-17 basically means it must be porn.

[dr_qwandry]

"Clearly the ESRB has a conflict of interest in rating these games," said Speaker pro Tem Yee. "Plain and simple, parents cannot trust the ESRB to rate games appropriately or the industry to look out for our children's best interests."

all the ESRB is, is a guideline. And if parents looked at them in the first place things would be different. But as we all know sometimes it isn't exactly the most useful system, ergo, perhaps parents should also look it up on the internet about what the game is and how it plays.

[Praetor-Vong]

Wasn't this decision affected at all by Sony's stance on no AO titles on the PS2?

[emperordahc]

If the game requires modding to get to the "AO" content, shouldn't all the games that don't have enough security to stop hacks that add "nude" patches (Tomb Raider, DOA)be rated "AO", too? ;)

[splatstick]

Sorry to break it to folks (especially since I agree it's messed up) but exposing teens to sex is a lot more likely to initiate sexual behavior (or more likely curiousity) as a response than violence is to make them want to be violent. One is a positive feeling shared (hopefully) between two people in consent. The other negative and confrontational in nature. So yes, in some ways there should be more concern when putting sex on display than violence if you don't want your child interested in exploring those sorts of things before you've discussed them with them. And that's a parental concern I can understand.

Show me one kid who hasn't seen sex at LEAST 20 times by the time they're 13 and I'll show you a kid without a TV set or DVD player.

[31 Flavas]

When [Manhunt] got an "M" rating I knew the system was pointless.Well, it doesn't necessarily mean it's all pointless, just that the AO rating is (because clearly M is influinced by the monetary importance of the title to the publisher/developer).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but compaired to M, don't E, E10+, and T have rather hard limits? Or do you know of games that have been given a T rating when it should have been a M rating (or for that matter, an E instead of a T)?

Edit: Chanced the sentence structure.

[DriveALW]

So, what's the mod? Did someone find a hidden cutscene on the disk, or did they create new animations? How much work is it to actually get this to happen? How does it compare to "Barely Legal Teen Marshmallow-and-Jello-Fest/Edible Lingerie Party #19?" Just, 'cause, y'know, I'm a... uh... responsible parent and I should be informed. Yeah.

[Kagger]

My parents are like this:

A game can be too violent. I couldn't play HL2 because of the zombie textures. But...also...if there is sexual content. I couldn't get PoP2 because of the hidden ending (I show my parents everything so they know how bad it is).

Sexual content in my moms opinion is far worse than violence, but I also can't play ultra violent games.


on another note:

Are those scenes really in there?

[Lagrius]

GIS guys, GIS.

[Kagger]

"Is it violent?"

"Aww, mom, c'mon. I won't do the fatalaties."

"Ok, then."

Yeah, right.

Funny, When I played MK in elementary school, I told my mom that, and I never have done a fatility

My parents monitor my stuff. I'm 16, and I still have to get M-rated games approved (heck, even Castlevania...the T ones bleh...freaking dracula).

Its my duty to present them with the worst of a game that I know of (I was able to get PoP until I told them about the extra ending). I could decieve them, but that wouldn't be right. Also, they could walk in while I play a game, and BAM...there goes 50 bucks.


Show me one kid who hasn't seen sex at LEAST 20 times by the time they're 13 and I'll show you a kid without a TV set or DVD player.


Me, and I own both and I'm 16

[Ridder]

Back to the rating...I know someone that worked in the industry for Microsoft Game Studios. ESRB only approves the rating, the game maker is given the job of making an appropriate rating. So these people have no right to be angry at ESRB, any problems with what is in a game should be directed to the game maker. But I cannot say all this without making the obvious statement that these people bought the game knowing what was in it...

[AspectVoid]

In Canada, we get the same ratings as in the US (duh) so the difference between M+ and AO is 1 year (at 18 years you are legaly a major here as opposed to 21 in USA).

So.... What's the big difference between 17 and 18?


For the movies, it works like this: A kid of any age can get into an R rated film as long as he/she is accompanied by an adult. No one under 17 can get into an NC-17 flick, though, no matter how many adults they're with. Or at least, that's the way it's suppossed to be.

I guess the games are suppossed to be sorta the same.

[MasterKwan]

My 14 year old knows more about sex and violence than I did when I was 18. Is it video games? Hell no, "CSI" and "Law and Order". It's pretty pointless for me to edit the games he plays when he already see's far more on TV. Besides, I don't actually believe a video game's going to turn him either violent or into a pervert. It might make him fat and lazy though.

All the parents that think they're controlling what their kids watch or play are fooling themselves. They just spend time at their friends houses.

[Thenetcase]

Show me one kid who hasn't seen sex at LEAST 20 times by the time they're 13 and I'll show you a kid without a TV set or DVD player.

That is just bullshit. I was a virgin until I was 21, by my own choice. I had TV, computers, consoles, DVDs, etc. etc. All the normal stuff everyone else has. Just because you have a different set of guidelines and morals doesn't mean you can judge other people by them, asshole. Get a frigging clue.

-TNC-

[Thenetcase]

Back to the rating...I know someone that worked in the industry for Microsoft Game Studios. ESRB only approves the rating, the game maker is given the job of making an appropriate rating. So these people have no right to be angry at ESRB, any problems with what is in a game should be directed to the game maker. But I cannot say all this without making the obvious statement that these people bought the game knowing what was in it...

I have no clue where you got that. The ESRB tells them what rating to use. You send the game to them with a dossier of all the stuff in it and where each scene appears, what the scene intails and then they go through the game and view each scene. Then they rate the game accordingly and TELL YOU what to publish on the box. It's not an option and it's not negotiable unless you change your content. If it was up to the publisher or developer you'd see a lot of games with horribly misguided ratings.

-TNC-

PS. Please get your facts straight next time, numbnuts. Those of us in the REAL industry laugh at morons like you.

[Heretic Machine]

VIDEO GAMES AND OTHER FORMS OF MEDIA DO NOT CREATE VIOLENCE OR CORRUPT CHILDREN! IF THEY ARE ENJOYING THE GAME THEN THEY ARE ALREADY "CORRUPTED".

CHILDREN ARE NOT AS INNOCENT AS YOU THINK.

THEY NEVER HAVE BEEN.

There... had to get that off my chest.

[ZMoe]

Wasn't this decision affected at all by Sony's stance on no AO titles on the PS2?

I've been in the industry for going on 13 years and there's been no first party (Sony/Nintendo/Sega/3DO/Atari/Microsoft) that's allowed an AO rated game to be released on their system in the US. Has that changed recently? PC is the only format that could get away with releasing an AO title because there's no first party that has to approve the product.

I agree, the M rating should be 18 and over, not 17.

And I'm no law encyclopedia, but isn't the age of "legal adult" in the US 18, not 21? 21 is just the required age for alcohol isn't it? It's been a while since I was either of those ages so my memory is a little foggy. :D

[MosBen]

I didn't take the statement about kids that haven't seen sex not having tvs to be a judgement on people that choose to avoid it, rather as a statement that most kids have access to all kinds of material long before they're "supposed" to. Porn, of course, is "supposed" to be restricted to 18+, but many many kids younger than that get it from a variety of sources.

That said, I do think there's something wrong with the way our society balances violence and sex. If individuals want to avoid sex that's perfectly fine, but as a society we're extrodinarily prudish.

[Cha-Ka]

That said, I do think there's something wrong with the way our society balances violence and sex. If individuals want to avoid sex that's perfectly fine, but as a society we're extrodinarily prudish.

Many agree, but it's hard to convince the ones who live in fear of being judged by invisible, omnipotent super-beings who can sentence us mortals to eternal torment. I mean...how do you reason with that kind of insanity??!! :confused:

[Dirty Harry]

This is the important thing: those scenes are NOT in the game. At ALL. It was a hoax. I look forward to everyone involved looking like a jackass.
Actually if you purchased the pc version you can unlock the sex minigames through the registery but apparently it was also included in the console versions but disabled.

[MasterKwan]

Nice, I have the PC version. Plays great with my XBox controller and looks great with AA turned on. Guess I'll have to tear myself away from BF2 and look into this.

This kind of dovetails with all the discussion of SIN 2 and Steam. If your sales are all online, the kind of self censoring the game developers do today can probably be relaxed. What does the rating matter to you if you're not going into retail?

[Liquidize105]

I hate to point the finger at the obvious, but.. internet?

Screen your children from porno? OH PLEASE! Think back when you were kids. Seeing sex = having sex? Oh, so hearing about sex from friends = not having sex?

There are things you can't protect your children from. So talk to your children about sex, make sure they know what they're getting into.

[Tia]

That is just bullshit. I was a virgin until I was 21, by my own choice. I had TV, computers, consoles, DVDs, etc. etc. All the normal stuff everyone else has. Just because you have a different set of guidelines and morals doesn't mean you can judge other people by them, asshole. Get a frigging clue.

-TNC-

he didn't say have sex, he said seen sex.

oh, and thinking that exposure to sex gets teenagers to have sex is as much enlightened approach as the "abstinence" education.

[Jukey]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but compaired to M, don't E, E10+, and T have rather hard limits? Or do you know of games that have been given a T rating when it should have been a M rating (or for that matter, an E instead of a T)?

Sid Meier's Pirates! is rated E, and The Incredibles is rated T.

[Deathbane27]

Show me one kid who hasn't seen sex at LEAST 20 times by the time they're 13 and I'll show you a kid without a TV set or DVD player.

You seriously need to get out more. There are Mormons out there.

By "seen sex", I'll assume you mean 5 points for a sex act and 1 point for seeing pussy/nipple.

Age 13: 0 points

Age 16 (1 month after getting internet access): 2 points

Age 19: 5-ish points (I discovered I enjoyed Victoria's Secret ads better. :p)

Age 21 (current, got broadband shortly after turning 20): Too many to count. Bloody porno ads on emulator sites.


And that's my life story.




Anyway, on topic: do these idiots that whine about ratings even play videogames? Or do they play them but just don't watch movies?

[Crabby]

Funny, When I played MK in elementary school, I told my mom that, and I never have done a fatility

My parents monitor my stuff. I'm 16, and I still have to get M-rated games approved (heck, even Castlevania...the T ones bleh...freaking dracula).

Its my duty to present them with the worst of a game that I know of (I was able to get PoP until I told them about the extra ending). I could decieve them, but that wouldn't be right. Also, they could walk in while I play a game, and BAM...there goes 50 bucks.





Me, and I own both and I'm 16


Cherish your commitment to ethics, one day it will be tested.

[Himsa II]

In realtions to God of War, no one knows about that game, and no one cares about that game either (mass audience wise). Now GTA, all the celebs talk about it, and all the politicians talk about it too. Thats why they talk about it, because its a recognizable game.


I imagine that Take Two Interactive and Rockstar Games dont really care though, because all those games have been bought, and the monies have already been made. :)