Sony: Our Disc Is Bigger Than Your Disc

[Psykoboy2]

In the "should-have-seen-it-coming" department, Sony, today, could finally validate what most fans of the PS3 having been saying from the beginning. And David Karraker told that to GamesIndustry.biz (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=27217):

"We took a lot of heat at launch for including Blu-Ray in PS3. Now it looks like that investment is being justified. Next generation games simply need more space on the disc to contain all that high definition content. Take a look at Lair, for example, already pushing 25GB of content, and that is a first-generation title. At 50GB storage capacity, Blu-Ray gives the PS3 plenty of headroom for developers to fully realize their visions well into the future."

The reason this really isn't a surprise to see is because it comes right on the heels of yesterday's news (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums//showthread.php?t=33501) that the Bizzare guys were somewhat limited in what they could do in PGR4 because of size limitations on a regular DVD disc.

I knew this was coming, I just didn't know it would be this soon. But yeah, that's a great advantage that Sony has over Microsoft. And it'll be interesting to see if developer's will take the extra time to use all that extra space, or will it only be limited to first party and exclusive titles.

[oldjadedgamer]

And looking at the review of Lair in EGM, disc space still doesn't equal good gameplay.

[Tricky Thumb]

If only it was possible to put data on two discs!

The storage size doesn't seem like that huge of an issue to me. Take Forza 2 for instance, a game that was by all means very massive in the amounts of data within the game. Am I wrong here or does it just seem like the information is without context since we have no idea how many track Bizzare did put into the game?

[PrivateJohn]

And looking at the review of Lair in EGM, disc space still doesn't equal good gameplay.
...but it equals potential. (Think of what PGR4 could have been...)

From the Lair review its mostly raving about the sixaxis chunky control.

[UnderHero5]

And looking at the review of Lair in EGM, disc space still doesn't equal good gameplay.

This isn't really news or anything. They've always touted their disk space in this way. The developers of Uncharted have said similar things as well.
"Should-have-seen-it-coming"?
More like "have-seen-it-since-they-announced-blu-ray".

Using more space doesn't make the games any better. It does allow devs more freedom, if they choose to use that space, however.

[Johan]

Damn, this one is getting old...:(

...but it equals potential.

Doesn't just about everything for Sony over the past year or so...:rolleyes:

[Deadend]

I don't think many games will really use the Blu-Ray, as the thing about having enough content to fill that much space... it costs a fuckload of money to make.
So your game has a big fucking budget.
So really, I don't think there will be too much usage now. It would have been nice if there was a DVD that could do 12gb or so, but 26-50 for blu-ray would not be used by a regular dev team, as it just costs too much to fill that much space... unless your are doing 3+ hours of blu-ray video, with the compression used on the movies, not the kind used for games.

[Crenor]

The Xbox 360 could have almost 2gigs more of space, if the dam copy protection did not take up soo much room. With compression 8.5gigs is fine.

[Psykoboy2]

disc space still doesn't equal good gameplay.

In an argument, I don't think the game has to be good. It's got more content on it because the disc has more space available. That's the point being made.

However, I agree with what you are saying.

[Tricky Thumb]

...but it equals potential. (Think of what PGR4 could have been...)

So what was PGR4? Oh right it isn't even out yet. :rolleyes:

[Shodan2020]

...but it equals potential. (Think of what PGR4 could have been...)

From the Lair review its mostly raving about the sixaxis chunky control.

All the Sony suits rave about the PS3's potential.. well when I invest in a next gen system, I want good games available to me now, not a potentiality a year or 3 down the pike. The truth is, both 360 and PS3 games will keep on looking better and better the farther along we go. I personally don't care two shits about Blu-Ray holding more space on one disc. I have no problem with a game being on more than one disc and I don't really see what the big deal is.

[IrishWhiskey]

Sony's been ringing that same bell since long before their system ever came out. And talking about how games like Resistance and Lair NEED the huge space for real next gen graphics. Its baloney, especially when there are bigger and better looking games out there on a single DVD.

On course the Bizarre thing may be the first real obstacle I've heard of facing a developer on 360. But as long as GTA, Mass Effect and Oblivion are fitting just fine on a single DVD, I dont see this as a serious problem.

[PrivateJohn]

So what was PGR4? Oh right it isn't even out yet. :rolleyes:
Dude, PGR4 is xb360 exclusive and the developer speak out about not having enough space.

[Rook34]

So what? Just switch disks if you have to.

Also, yeah, it costs a lot of money to make a game that COULD fill a blu-ray disc. Just make a fun game...

[Fonz]

"Nobody will ever need more than 640k RAM!" -- Bill Gates, 1981
"With compression 8.5gigs is fine." -- Crenor, 2007

Hehe sorry I had to go there, it was begging to be done. <3 Crenor.

[Shodan2020]

Dude, PGR4 is xb360 exclusive and the developer speak out about not having enough space.

I don't think it's that big of a deal. If it was, they'd release PGR4 with 2 discs. They'll probably put the night tracks on Live or something... hopefully for free.. but probably not.

[mkelehan]

The fact that the 2 minute long Heavenly Sword demo is a goddamn gigabyte shows that they just don't know how to compress anything over at the Sony camp. Bragging that Lair fills 25GB doesn't impress me; I could make a version of Nibbles that takes up 50GB if I really wanted to.

[digitalErich]

On it's face, sure it's always better to have more storage capacity for devs. This is a given. However, in the case of the PS3, is it worth the extra cost? Time and the market haven't gotten back to us on that one, yet.

[PrivateJohn]

So what? Just switch disks if you have to.

Also, yeah, it costs a lot of money to make a game that COULD fill a blu-ray disc. Just make a fun game...
I hate game loading, especially the one in oblivion.
Disc-swapping? Thats worse than game loading!

I still think disc-swapping will only works for FPS game that split into single & multiplayer, especially Tom CLancy titles!

[Johan]

If everything else was equal, of course MORE space is better...

but everything else is not equal. We're talking about a ton of other factors, including the read speed with the disks, the cost of manufacturing and licensing them, the cost of developing a title on two different platforms.

Dammit...this is more complicated than "our di** capacity is bigger than your di** capacity. If it was JUST that, then sure...more is better. It's not that simple.

[oldjadedgamer]

Well, Gears of War fit on a DVD9 and cleaned up a ton of awards including many game of the year awards and sold over three million copies on a system with a very limited user base. I think people are more worried about devs making a good game first before they worry about filling up space.

As long as devs can make compelling games that continue to sell very well on DVD9, the extra space isn't needed. Personally, it's nice that it's there for big JRPG's that are more movie then game but it's far from "required" this gen and defiantly not at the price tag that comes with it.

[Tricky Thumb]

Dude, PGR4 is xb360 exclusive and the developer speak out about not having enough space.


Oh boo-hoo, so they couldn't put that 11th track into the game disc? Since when don't developers complain about something restricting them.

So Forza 2 had 12 tracks with something like 45 different configurations. PGR4 has 10 tracks at release. Motorstorm, if memory recalls, had around 8 tracks at its release. I wonder whether Forza 2 or Motorstorm sold more units and which has more people playing the game right now? The point is quality not quantity.

[Skyelan]

I knew this was coming, I just didn't know it would be this soon.

This soon? THIS SOON!? What funny shit are you smoking?

By this soon, you mean five seconds after the PS3 was announced to have a BluRay drive, and once a day ever since? Sony's been trumpeting their 'IT'S NEEDED' lines and listing games that 'need' the space since fucking day negative one.

It's been a lot of explaining and justification to their fans as to why the system has overly expensive technology shoved in that drives the price high in hopes of using the PlayStation brand as a stepping stone to try to achieve format dominance.

I mean, I'm sure next they'll announce the shocker that they shrug off their competition or try to justify reasons why the Wii is raping their home country out of their hands. THAT will be worth framing on the wall.

And frankly, Sony's been spewing bullshit for years. When the games they trumpet as being proof of the need for space, and these ones that take up sooo much data more than DVD can handle, aren't the insane technological or length wonders they should be that bury the 360 (and are almost entirely made up of games close to Sony themselves) I'm gonna say that if the apple is green and spells funny, it's probably not very good for eating. :rolleyes:

[Heretic Machine]

I still don't understand the PGR4 thing. They wanted to go back and reskin every level, and every car, so that they could implement a night effect? Isn't that the sort of thing that we should be doing with lighting effects these days, instead of just retexturing everything? I mean, I could be wrong, but that was the kind of thing I was expecting from this gen.

[Shodan2020]

The fact that the 2 minute long Heavenly Sword demo is a goddamn gigabyte shows that they just don't know how to compress anything over at the Sony camp. Bragging that Lair fills 25GB doesn't impress me; I could make a version of Nibbles that takes up 50GB if I really wanted to.

Dude! Nibbles! Let's not forget Gorillas with the mighty atomic banana! :)

[UnderHero5]

I still don't understand the PGR4 thing. They wanted to go back and reskin every level, and every car, so that they could implement a night effect? Isn't that the sort of thing that we should be doing with lighting effects these days, instead of just retexturing everything? I mean, I could be wrong, but that was the kind of thing I was expecting from this gen.
Seems like that would be the easiest route, but if the engine wasn't built for that, then it may not be as easy as it sounds. It may be easier for them to change the textures, or recompile the lighting on the tracks (saving them as "new" tracks) rather than re-writing their existing engine to handle dynamic light cycles.

I'm sure, given the time/resources, they could have re-written parts of the engine to handle what you're talking about. Since they're on a tight schedule to release it, it was probably "if we had more space, we could easily recompile these maps with night lighting and stick them on the disc".

Any dev could do a LOT with a little amount of space, given enough resources and time, but it would probably save time and resources for them to simply have a bigger disc to stick all their data on.
Some call it being a "lazy" dev, but in the end, who are we to say who is being lazy, they're the ones making the games.

[tombofsoldier]

Bizzare sucks at creating good lighting models, so Sony is better, how does that follow?

[KNOTE]

Is it worth 150 extra dollars to a consumer? Maybe someday.

[UnderHero5]

Is it worth 150 extra dollars to a consumer? Maybe someday.
I know I'll get slammed for "defending Sony", but I just have to point out that the Blu-Ray drive is not the only thing that makes the PS3 more expensive. It also has other features that not every one will want, such as a larger hard drive, built in wireless, memory stick readers, and it doubles as a George Foreman grill.

[Psykoboy2]

And it also has the ability to potentially maybe someday cure cancer possibly perhaps.

[Rune_74]

But does it have games?

[cp#]

My hard drive is bigger than your blue rays

[UnderHero5]

But does it have games?
It has 2 games. Yes.

[JazGalaxy]

If it ever really became an issue developers could simply make a boot disc that you had to insert at certain times to write information to your hard drive for extra space.

Sony does it by having you install games before you play them.

[Nessus]

I say again:

Why. Can't. They. Use. Multiple. DVDs?

Final Fantasy VII sold over 9 million copies and it was, what? 4 discs long?

Resident Evil 4 on GameCube is 2 discs long. Is it so hard to get up once during the course of 20 or so hours to change discs?

I really, really don't see how the convenience of not having to swap discs is worth hundreds of dollars more.

[Your Good Twin]

The fact that the 2 minute long Heavenly Sword demo is a goddamn gigabyte shows that they just don't know how to compress anything over at the Sony camp. Bragging that Lair fills 25GB doesn't impress me; I could make a version of Nibbles that takes up 50GB if I really wanted to.

Hehe, I'm inclined to agree. PS3 dev's are like "We love all the extra space. Means we can save the week of time we usually spend to compress the game!" It's kind of like when you look at a celebrity mansion. Sure, it's nice and roomy and you can throw a lot of frivolous stuff in it, but you know that fucker doesn't need all that space for shit.

[Jack B]

People have been using games with more than 1 disk for years. It's an advantage to have 1 disk instead of 2 or more, but hardly makes a game unplayable. How big an advantage is it? It depends. How much it's worth is more debatable still.

[Emma Peel]

This is definitely true. Having more space on the ps3 discs just means that developers wont have to worry about that extra half gig or the "bonus content" that no one watches, that eats more room then the game .

The multi-disc question is a very good one. Most of what devs will be looking to use the extra space for is bonus content not more game. Bonus content could easlily go on another disc.

However to play my own devils advocate. This will mean more cost to manufacture the game.

To play devil to my devil, I understand that blurays are much more expensive to manufacture then dvds.

Devil. This cost should come down in the future.

Devil. Most likely the cost drop of the bluray will never be as cheap as a dvd.

[KidNicarus]

The PS3 definetly has advantages over the 360. But I never viewed the extra storage space as a huge plus. It really isn't that hard to switch discs. Alot of times when devs claim they can add more "content" to a Blu Ray disc, its usually content no one cares about. I don't really give a damn if I can play Heavenly Sword in Italian.

[Norse]

More space is great, but it's not as important as some here make it sound like. It does not improve game mechanics or story. It could make the game bigger and improve texture quality, but time and resources are limiting the game sizes more than disc space. And how much better can texture quality can PS3 have than X360 anyway? Both machines have no more than 512MB and hi-res textures can get pretty big.

[Schnoogs]

Somewhere, someone brilliant is attempting to put a game on multiple discs.

Who am I kidding...sounds like science fiction if you ask me

[Deadend]

It's not the size of the disk in the system, it's how you use it!

[Watership]

Lair, 25 Gigs of bad gameplay.

WINNAR: SONY.

[Syl]

I say again:

Why. Can't. They. Use. Multiple. DVDs?

Final Fantasy VII sold over 9 million copies and it was, what? 4 discs long?

Resident Evil 4 on GameCube is 2 discs long. Is it so hard to get up once during the course of 20 or so hours to change discs?

I really, really don't see how the convenience of not having to swap discs is worth hundreds of dollars more.
Depends greatly on the type of game. For a linear game - 2+ disks is perfectly fine; as long as certain conversations, movies, and perhaps even area's will never be revisited in the future.

The problem with multiple disk games is redudancy; Every disk needs X amount of the same basic files for the game to run; so you need to put certain content; per disk, that will only appear on that disk. Otherwise you're going to require disk swapping for certain areas - which is an absolute pain.

The problem is that many games currently are more free-roaming; so the ability to put things on a Disk 1 or Disk 2 is diminished greatly. For a racing game; i honestly think it's pretty much entirely worthless to be split across two disks.

[Micasa]

Depends greatly on the type of game. For a linear game - 2+ disks is perfectly fine; as long as certain conversations, movies, and perhaps even area's will never be revisited in the future.

The problem with multiple disk games is redudancy; Every disk needs X amount of the same basic files for the game to run; so you need to put certain content; per disk, that will only appear on that disk. Otherwise you're going to require disk swapping for certain areas - which is an absolute pain.

The problem is that many games currently are more free-roaming; so the ability to put things on a Disk 1 or Disk 2 is diminished greatly. For a racing game; i honestly think it's pretty much entirely worthless to be split across two disks.

Not really, I've always wondered why they didn't have racing games with 'city disks' where you could pick up additional cities to race in after the fact - kind of like DLC offers now.

Instead of waiting for a new iteration of the game to come out, just pick up the new New York City DVD and get a very detailed version of that particular city. No country tracks, nothing like that - just NYC racing, on way more streets than you'd ever get with a 'do it all' game.

I also wanted something like that for a GTA-style game. Hit the airport, get prompted to insert the DVD for Chicago or Atlanta, and you're set to adventure in a whole new city.

[Deadend]

Also, quit thinking in terms of space requirements for PC games. As those installs tend to have many redundant things, such as entirely different visual assets for lo-medium-high-ultra settings and the same for audio.

So Oblivion on PC takes up quite a bit of space, but the 360 version takes up less, due to it needing just the one range of assets. In-engine cut scenes take up much much much less space than prerended video at 1080p with no compression.

The PGR4 case? That mostly comes down to that they would pre render the main lights like in making a map in Unreal, the lighting is not ALL real time. Thus having night versions of a city are doubling the texture space needed.

I do think that DVD9s capacity will be pushed this generation, but developers will find ways around it. And they will, as while its easier on storage space to work on the PS3... it's a hell of a lot easier to, ya know... make a game on the 360.

[Vandenh]

Doesn't matter if you have no games to burn on those awesome disks.

[Micasa]

Doesn't matter if you have no games to burn on those awesome disks.

Well that's kind of the real point, isn't it?

The propeller heads (oh watch them spin!) can talk about disc capacity versus disc read speed, or total system RAM versus total AVAILABLE system RAM, or paying for online versus not paying for online that lacks features - but it comes down to that one thing.

Got any games we just have to play?

That's Sony's real problem at the moment, and yeah...the games are coming. But that's what I was told six or more months ago, and they're still pointing to that 'six months away' window that they were talking about six months ago.

They can spin the tech advantages/disadvantages whatever way they want. They can snidely bash the 360 or the Wii at whatever opportunity presents itself. But if they don't get the damn games out, their fancy piece of tech will continue to gather dust.

I can't play promises, nor stay excited about a game that's six-eight months away when the other consoles have top-flight games coming out RIGHT NOW.

[JazGalaxy]

Well that's kind of the real point, isn't it?

The propeller heads (oh watch them spin!) can talk about disc capacity versus disc read speed, or total system RAM versus total AVAILABLE system RAM, or paying for online versus not paying for online that lacks features - but it comes down to that one thing.

Got any games we just have to play?

That's Sony's real problem at the moment, and yeah...the games are coming. But that's what I was told six or more months ago, and they're still pointing to that 'six months away' window that they were talking about six months ago.

They can spin the tech advantages/disadvantages whatever way they want. They can snidely bash the 360 or the Wii at whatever opportunity presents itself. But if they don't get the damn games out, their fancy piece of tech will continue to gather dust.

I can't play promises, nor stay excited about a game that's six-eight months away when the other consoles have top-flight games coming out RIGHT NOW.

I don't know... I looked at the video on Gamespot of the Heavenly Sword and Ratchet and Clank demoes and I was almost swayed to pick up a PS3 immediately until I thought about it and remembered... oh yeah... Sony cares about visuals and absolutely nothing else.

And sure enough, when you really got down to it, all Heavently Sword was, was watchign real time cinematics and pressing the appropriate button when it told you to. Dragon's Lair 2007. Do I really want to spend 800 bucks for that? And Ratchet wasn't much better.

[Micasa]

Heavenly Sword wasn't just QTE, once you're off the rope you get to fight a bit. A very tiny bit. It's no God of War though, but it might actually have workable combat I just didn't get to see as I had to give up on it after a few plays through. The damnable demo locked up my PS3 three times, all on the second fight sequence, and I'd had enough.

[Ondo]

I say again:

Why. Can't. They. Use. Multiple. DVDs?

Final Fantasy VII sold over 9 million copies and it was, what? 4 discs long?
Because they're not making a linear game.

You really expect PGR4 to require you to use disk 1 for some tracks and disk 2 for others?

Hey, and for DoA 4 Itagaki could have just had you switch to disk 2 whenever he wanted to display pre-rendered video, and back to disk 1 for gameplay.

And Vice City divided the city in half and had a bit of load time when you went between the two halves - GTA IV can just do the same thing, but with a disc swap instead of load time.

[Apex]

Yes, because developers want the extra pressure, financial strain and risk with making yet more and more content, thats why developers are flocking to the PS3.

Look, see them flocking ... wait their not flocking to the PS3 ... Oh thats right, their flocking to the Wii.

[bKangy]

25gb... of mostly wasted space. Congrats Sony, you got lazy to make a point!

[DangerousDaze]

I would have thought there was enough evidence already that Sony made a wise choice to include Blu-Ray in the PS3. Talk about heads in the sand.

[Karmakin]

The problem with Blu-Ray, at least the way I've always seen it, is it's a stupid maker.

A lot of content does not ensure a good game. What it does ensure is an expensive game. Meaning expensive to produce. The risk factor goes through the roof.

My concern is that it's far too much risk. I could honestly see some promising developers go under because their well designed PS3 game, full of content and hi-def graphics didn't appeal enough to the mainstream, so it didn't sell. In a way, the added expense of the content in the long term would only serve to water down the game play.

That's why I don't like Sony's original path for this generation. I think that since then they've changed directions, or at least started to, towards user control and home-made content (LBW, Home, UT3). But I'm still very suspicious of Blu-Ray and its effects on gaming.

[Skyelan]

I would have thought there was enough evidence already that Sony made a wise choice to include Blu-Ray in the PS3.

Where? Please, enlighten to me.

Where is the game that clearly benefits from BluRay? All Sony has touted are some games that have more data than would fit on a DVD. This is nice, but none of them have graphics that blow away what's being done on a DVD just fine with the 360. None of them are significantly larger, or longer. In fact, many of them are extremely shallow, short games.

Supposedly these games need all this data they're made up of, but there's no clear benefit that comes with the size. There's not a single shred of evidence that BluRay is making games bigger, or faster or what the fuck ever-er.

Show me the game that proves me wrong. The game that blows away some of the deeper 360 games that fit dandily on just one DVD. In graphics, or in sheer mass of world, or in, fuck, ANYTHING. That would be the definitive proof that Sony's not just blowing smoke to justfify their decision.

You'll have to excuse me if I call bullshit on the company that bullshits all the time, when these supposed champions of larger format are using up all this space, when they're not in any way superior to DVD counterparts.

So do present the court with this evidence.

[bKangy]

I would have thought there was enough evidence already that Sony made a wise choice to include Blu-Ray in the PS3. Talk about heads in the sand.

No, not really...

It's making the console too expensive for them to sell even close to their actual manufacturing cost, it appears to be the only BR device selling in good numbers (which in all likelyhood is down more to it being Playstation brand than the actual player). And procedural content seems to be a very up and coming thing, as well as downloadable channels for sales... Seems like a big investment in something that doesn't have much life in it beyond the close future.

[DangerousDaze]

So do present the court with this evidence.

http://www.networkworld.com/news/2007/073007-japanese-porn-industry-embraces-blu-ray.html ;)

[Skyelan]

http://www.networkworld.com/news/2007/073007-japanese-porn-industry-embraces-blu-ray.html ;)

So where exactly does that prove that using the PlayStation brand, their most undeniably successful and well known product, the one that would've singlehandedly dominated this generation had they not jacked prices sky high by trying to push their propriety bullshit, as a sacrificial lamb is a good idea?

Or are you basically admitting that Sony's loyal fans of 12+ are being told to fuck off just so they can push a format that will die, just like HD-DVD will? I don't see too many fess up to that, it's refreshing to see someone with a good head on their shoulders. :D

[bapenguin]

I think next generation should go back to CDs. I love seeing what developers are able to pull off given restrictions. Look at the amazing titles that came out on XBLA when there was a 50MB limit.

Roboblitz, Mutant Storm Reloaded, Assault Heroes, Marble Blast Ultra...I mean, jesus. It's hard to believe these games are under 50MB, they look gorgeous.

[tiremfej]

http://www.networkworld.com/news/2007/073007-japanese-porn-industry-embraces-blu-ray.html ;)

Just because they are willing to help with the porn industry doesn't mean exclusive. You need to read between the lines. Just like they stated Target was exclusive, it's only an endcap.

I'm tired of all the Sony crap, everything is an excuse for them one way or another. I wish I would have stuck with PR in college...getting paid to basically lie everyday of your life...man what a job, I could still go back and do it, I'm not that old...

I do have to say, I may be swayed to HD-DVD $179 plus 5 movies, the 300, Shaun of the Dead and Hot Fuzz just came out...I'm leaning that way.

Also, MS isn't that stupid, what's to stop them from doing Special Edition HD-DVD versions of games? Just because they said they won't? Ummmm, yeah...they could offer a HD-DVD version. I'm in fact surprised they aren't with Halo 3, then again if they were they would have with that game...

[PrivateJohn]

The question is, whats the lifespan of xb360?
If its 4 years like xbox1..then DVD should be doing fine.

Otherwise, developer do need more space!!

[tiremfej]

The question is, whats the lifespan of xb360?
If its 4 years like xbox1..then DVD should be doing fine.

Otherwise, developer do need more space!!

Oh yes that's right, Sony's been using that as excuse as well...it's a 10 year plan, that also justifies that high-folutin cost. Give me another lie...

Xbox 360 was conceived early because they obviously couldn't compete with the PS2, I'm predicting a total 6 year life for the 360.

[TrackZero]

I knew this was coming, I just didn't know it would be this soon. But yeah, that's a great advantage that Sony has over Microsoft. And it'll be interesting to see if developer's will take the extra time to use all that extra space, or will it only be limited to first party and exclusive titles.


It's not hard to purposefully use all the space on that medium (blu-ray) to make claims like this. It doesn't mean the space was necessary or adds any value.

The fact that I've heard numerous people who've played Lair essentially yawn about it doesn't exactly inspire me either. Now had this been some amazing game that used all the space, it'd be a different story.

[TrackZero]

Well that's kind of the real point, isn't it?

The propeller heads (oh watch them spin!) can talk about disc capacity versus disc read speed, or total system RAM versus total AVAILABLE system RAM, or paying for online versus not paying for online that lacks features - but it comes down to that one thing.

Got any games we just have to play?

That's Sony's real problem at the moment, and yeah...the games are coming. But that's what I was told six or more months ago, and they're still pointing to that 'six months away' window that they were talking about six months ago.

They can spin the tech advantages/disadvantages whatever way they want. They can snidely bash the 360 or the Wii at whatever opportunity presents itself. But if they don't get the damn games out, their fancy piece of tech will continue to gather dust.

I can't play promises, nor stay excited about a game that's six-eight months away when the other consoles have top-flight games coming out RIGHT NOW.

QFT. Nice summary.

[DangerousDaze]

QFT. Nice summary.

It's not, really. It's just a diversion away from the topic and towards the usual argument of no games on an immature format. Blu Ray has all but "won" the HD format war and the PS3 is the main reason for that. As HD in the home starts to pick up (and it is) then this will set up a feedback loop back to sales of the PS3. We're hearing from devs (not just Sony) that DVD is starting to be a constraint to them and no amount of posters who have no idea what they're talking about calling those devs idiots does anything to nullify their statement.

/edit - I absolutely agree that the PS3 desparately needs good games and I've said so many times. But it's just misdirection as far as this thread's topic is concerned.

[Mr.Green]

Next generation games simply need more space on the disc to contain all that high definition content. Take a look at Lair, for example, already pushing 25GB of content, and that is a first-generation title.
I'm confused, is this the first generation or the next generation?

[Johan]

I think next generation should go back to CDs. I love seeing what developers are able to pull off given restrictions. Look at the amazing titles that came out on XBLA when there was a 50MB limit.

Roboblitz, Mutant Storm Reloaded, Assault Heroes, Marble Blast Ultra...I mean, jesus. It's hard to believe these games are under 50MB, they look gorgeous.

I actually agree with this to some degree.

I was a bit peeved at the increase in the Arcade file-size limit. I don't want to fill my HDD with poorly written code.

[Yeti2005]

How do PC games solve this incredibly hard issue? Oh that's right they either don't have to or they use multiple discs and install it on the harddrive. If games truly need more disc space a few years down the road, what's more likely...MS will release cheaper harddrives OR MS will start using an unproven new disc technology which will be slower than accessing a HD?

[rein]

Oh yes that's right, Sony's been using that as excuse as well...it's a 10 year plan, that also justifies that high-folutin cost. Give me another lie...

..ummm... ...they didn't say they would not release a new console in the next ten years, they said they would support the PS3 for ten years. Exactly like they are doing with the PS2. It is a different business model than Microsofts and looking at PS2 game sales, it is paying off.

.............

As for the whole Blue-ray vs dvd debate. Call me crazy but more storage sounds like it is an advantage. It's not like Sony mandated that developers fill the entire disk.

Some of you are really looking for Sony quotes to turn into a "news" story. I didn't think a comment like "Blue-ray has more storage than DVD" was much of a news story a few years ago. I damn sure don't think it is news the millionth time a Sony exec makes the comment in public. Actually, I think this may be one of the few times the comment was justified.

[Roc Ingersol]

Next comes the PR statements that the BD-ROM has slower access times and transfer rates, meaning that all those big beautiful textures multiply load times.

And the partisan gamers will cheer for their team - whatever it happens to be.
And none of it will really matter to real gamers, because some games will look awesome on each system and some awesome looking games for each system will suck shit through a straw.

Same as it ever was.

[karak]

And looking at the review of Lair in EGM, disc space still doesn't equal good gameplay.

hahaha. Ya and if diskspace was taken up by the now blurry dragon textures I am all for little ity bity DVDs

[Citizen Philip]

Back in my day with the tape drives, 5 1/2" floppies, 3 1/4" floppies, CeeDee-Rom, Zipdisks, DVD drives 'en now we have the Blue Ray and the HDDDvD.

Sorry, if you think sticking with an old format is cool. It's not. Not wasting your money on a format that has no future is important.

[CgBeastie]

And looking at the review of Lair in EGM, disc space still doesn't equal good gameplay.

Yea you could say that about just about anything.... I think you are forgetting that hardware power isnt inversely related to fun. Just as crappy system doesnt equal more fun... I dont see masses huddled around ataris.

[violentp]

Oi. Again. Listen folks, more space is better plain and simple. How effectively that space is used is up to deliberation but that is another story.

[silv]

I would have thought there was enough evidence already that Sony made a wise choice to include Blu-Ray in the PS3. Talk about heads in the sand.

I'd rather have a $399 Premium than a $599 Premium. If the 360 had 2gigs of system RAM that would allow a lot of new games too!

Instead of pricing themselves out of the market MSFT went with the best trade-off imho.

[Narcissus]

It's not, really. It's just a diversion away from the topic and towards the usual argument of no games on an immature format.When the topic is disc capacity, how is it a diversion to discuss the difference it's made to the quality of the games?

The 360 has already provided a home for some great games. With many more coming in the next five months, I think it's fair to say only DVD is working out just fine. If the PS3 does eventually surpass 360 sales, the increased disc capacity of Blu-Ray, where gaming concerned, is not going to be the reason.

For games, Blu-Ray means:More varied art assets, which translates to more in-game settings, a greater variety in adversaries, more music, etc.More extras: bonus movies, concept art, etc. (which is really just a generous expansion of the first point)
For games, Blu-Ray does not mean: Technically better graphics as both consoles are pushing relatively similar polygon counts, shader operations, etc. and are still limited by physical memory far below the capacity of their disksBetter gameplay, for which code is largely responsible (which doesn't need great amounts of disk space like art does)Arguably, what Blu-Ray will facilitate in some cases is a fuller, more complete experience, but when you consider that creating art enough to fill a 25 GB disk does not represent a viable, bang-for-buck business model for anyone besides the richest developers, the benefit of Blu-Ray in games becomes even more negligible. There are even hypothetical instances where Blu-Ray's capacity can work against games, where PS3 exclusives try to justify the extra space by having more textures on screen at a lower resolution, resulting in a muddied, almost last-gen appearance (which Lair may be a good example of); or, as we've already seen, longer loading times.

The idea that as the platform matures teh powa of teh blurayz lol is going to mean anything different to what it means now is, I'm afraid, naive.

Now, having said all that, undoubtedly, there will be rare instances during the 360's lifetime when developers could put use to some extra space and a multiple disk solution does not suffice, but it won't, for all that's outlined above, impact the game in any meaningful way.

[huntr]

im just wondering if the 360 can last using DVD as long as the PS2 has lasted with the DVDs.

[Micasa]

"There are even hypothetical instances where Blu-Ray's capacity can work against games, where PS3 exclusives try to justify the extra space by having more textures on screen at a lower resolution, resulting in a muddied, almost last-gen appearance (which Lair may be a good example of); or, as we've already seen, longer loading times."

Well that's where you run into the problem of having only 512 MB of RAM to work with. You can have 100 GB of textures on the disc, but it doesn't really matter when you have a limited RAM pool to work with.

Then the day comes where you have enough RAM for something like that, and the problem becomes 'how can we shuttle them off the disc fast enough?' instead.

[Metal Jesus]

I'm playing through Final Fantasy IX again...and it is on 4 CDs...

...and I never really notice or care, because the developers knew how to spread the game out evenly and never make it a burden on the player. This is not going to be a big deal at all on the X360.

[Trazzlo the Magnificant]

I simply prefer Microsoft's system of offering 20 decent games that fit on a DVD to Sony's system of 1 that doesn't.

That's a pretty snarky way to say it, but it really comes down to designing for the marketplace. Nintendo is eating Sony for breakfast, lunch and dinner (you know, three times the sales plus a desert buffet), and size doesn't matter to them. It's what they do with it.

Other people will only see "size". They oversimplify to "bigger is better", and use single cases to prove their point when multiple cases disprove it.

[violentp]

I simply prefer Microsoft's system of offering 20 decent games that fit on a DVD to Sony's system of 1 that doesn't.


At the moment I prefer to play on a system that I only play about 5 differnet games on to a system that feels like it'll be dying any day now.

[silv]

At the moment I prefer to play on a system that I only play about 5 differnet games on to a system that feels like it'll be dying any day now.

Launch system going strong still. Have fun with your 5 games.

[Incidence]

Until Sony actually does something worthwhile with all the space on a blu-ray disc I just don't care if it is bigger.

[violentp]

Launch system going strong still. Have fun with your 5 games.

Come talk some shit when it dies. You know it will. When you ship your 360 in let me know, I'll call you on the phone and describe my 5 games to you.

[Johan]

Come talk some shit when it dies.

Cool! See, now we have something to do while awaiting its return!

--lemons? Screw that! Make lemonade!

Even better idea: Call MS each day while it's gone and tell them what you would be doing with the 360, if you actually had it.

"So, right about now, I'd be cuing up the following demos for download...and then I'd hop into the Arcade and play Alien Hominid, for which my skills are currently rusting as I await my console, which I miss!"

Go on and on and on. Every day.

--I have too much time on my hands.

[TeeCakes]

This is definitely true. Having more space on the ps3 discs just means that developers wont have to worry about that extra half gig or the "bonus content" that no one watches, that eats more room then the game .

The multi-disc question is a very good one. Most of what devs will be looking to use the extra space for is bonus content not more game. Bonus content could easlily go on another disc.

However to play my own devils advocate. This will mean more cost to manufacture the game.

To play devil to my devil, I understand that blurays are much more expensive to manufacture then dvds.

Devil. This cost should come down in the future.

Devil. Most likely the cost drop of the bluray will never be as cheap as a dvd.

It's simple. In terms of artistic freedom, the developer with integrity will choose Blu-Ray over DVD everytime.

[violentp]

Cool! See, now we have something to do while awaiting its return!

--lemons? Screw that! Make lemonade!

Even better idea: Call MS each day while it's gone and tell them what you would be doing with the 360, if you actually had it.

"So, right about now, I'd be cuing up the following demos for download...and then I'd hop into the Arcade and play Alien Hominid, for which my skills are currently rusting as I await my console, which I miss!"

Go on and on and on. Every day.

--I have too much time on my hands.

You know, put like that were I a customer rep, that phone call would kick some ass.

[Yeti2005]

Anyone catch that Bizarre said they NEVER had to cut anything from PGR4 because of the DVD size? If not check out at this link (http://www.bizarrecreations.com/article.php?article_id=5257).

[silv]

That cropsheet looks pretty nice!

[KingGorilla]

Only so much can be compressed, it is not like PC gaming where you can unpack hugely compressed files and get the likes of Far Cry out of it. And for those of you talking about multiple discs, I am really glad that Hard Drive technology and Disc technology has advanced to a point where I can play a game and not have to see "You have reached the end of act I, please insert Disc 2 to continue." Has DVD 9 run its course? I dunno. Can more space on a disc mean more gaming on that disc? I hope so. But I got a lot of time out of 3-4 Diablo Discs, a helluva lot more than I got out of 1 Halo or Resistance disc.

[Twigz'N'Berries]

First let me say that I love my 360 and have been having ablast out of the launch system (and two swaps at EB since I bought the extended warranty) but...

I do believe the lack of space will hurt the 360 in the long run. I think MS also fractured the install base by making it where the hard drive is not standard. The fact that the 360 does not have a built in wireless connection sucks, but it isn't a huge issue for me...I just hook it up to my wireless network and it works fine.
Multiple discs will solve some problems, but it still is a pain in the anus. I've been contemplating a PS3, but there are no games out for it that I must have. I realized that I had fallen for Sony's 'Potential' marketing, but I have decided to wait until some of that potential is realized before I plop down $500+. Oh, and to Sony's credit, I dont hear about those Foreman Grill's going belly up every few months.

[Schnoogs]

Come talk some shit when it dies. You know it will. When you ship your 360 in let me know, I'll call you on the phone and describe my 5 games to you.

No you wont because there isnt 5 games worth describing.

[violentp]

No you wont because there isnt 5 games worth describing.

Too little too late. Move along.

[Schnoogs]

Too little too late. Move along.

Its never too late to call someone's bluff. :D

I say that as an owner of both a PS3 and a 360. I have one game for the PS3 and 20 for the 360. I almost want you to name 5 so I can justify my purchase. As for now its simply a BluRay player.

[violentp]

Its never too late to call someone's bluff. :D

I say that as an owner of both a PS3 and a 360. I have one game for the PS3 and 20 for the 360. I almost want you to name 5 so I can justify my purchase. As for now its simply a BluRay player.

Technically speaking I could easily sit here and discuss 5 games in great length. But to be fair, I'm gifted in the ability of making anything sound better than it actually is. ;)

[TeeCakes]

Its never too late to call someone's bluff. :D

I say that as an owner of both a PS3 and a 360. I have one game for the PS3 and 20 for the 360. I almost want you to name 5 so I can justify my purchase. As for now its simply a BluRay player.

What a foolish dare. There's more than 5 games worth owning on the PS3 now, and just to shut people like you up from continually making claims otherwise:

1. Resistance: Fall of Man
2. Tekken 5: Dark Resurrection
3. Super Stardust HD
4. Ninja Gaiden Sigma
5. Oblivion
6. The Bigs (one of my FAV arcade baseball games, Wii Sports baseball wishes it were as cool)
7. Calling All Cars (I didn't think much of it, but IGN gave it 8.5)
8. Motorstorm
9. Virtua Tennis 3 (the stuff of college legends)

You may now kiss my ass, when ready.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Back in my day with the tape drives, 5 1/2" floppies, 3 1/4" floppies, CeeDee-Rom, Zipdisks, DVD drives 'en now we have the Blue Ray and the HDDDvD.

Sorry, if you think sticking with an old format is cool. It's not. Not wasting your money on a format that has no future is important.
Every format that comes out doesn't succeed, you know. Blu-Ray is not as important as DVD was, and will most definitely take longer to hit the install base DVD has.

Someone could have said the same thing you just said about Laserdisc

[TheFlyingOrc]

At the moment I prefer to play on a system that I only play about 5 differnet games on to a system that feels like it'll be dying any day now.
Oh noes! Now I can't play my system for about 2-3 weeks! This is MUCH worse than having it in my house but having nothing to play on it!

[violentp]

Oh noes! Now I can't play my system for about 2-3 weeks! This is MUCH worse than having it in my house but having nothing to play on it!

Do you own a PS3? If you don't then you fail at your attempt. If you do, then we can continue discussing something I said yesterday to someone else.

[Micasa]

What a foolish dare. There's more than 5 games worth owning on the PS3 now, and just to shut people like you up from continually making claims otherwise:

1. Resistance: Fall of Man
2. Tekken 5: Dark Resurrection
3. Super Stardust HD
4. Ninja Gaiden Sigma
5. Oblivion
6. The Bigs (one of my FAV arcade baseball games, Wii Sports baseball wishes it were as cool)
7. Calling All Cars (I didn't think much of it, but IGN gave it 8.5)
8. Motorstorm
9. Virtua Tennis 3 (the stuff of college legends)

You may now kiss my ass, when ready.

It kind of defeats your point when you list several multi-platform titles and even include a title you don't really like, and only hit a grand total of nine.

[DangerousDaze]

It kind of defeats your point when you list several multi-platform titles and even include a title you don't really like, and only hit a grand total of nine.

FFS. It's a list of more than 5 titles that are worth owning on the PS3. Period. It doesn't defeat any point. :/

[violentp]

FFS. It's a list of more than 5 titles that are worth owning on the PS3. Period. It doesn't defeat any point. :/

This is true. Funny how context alone defined FFS for me.

[Gorvi]

It kind of defeats your point when you list several multi-platform titles and even include a title you don't really like, and only hit a grand total of nine.
Well, he could have also listed Virtua Fighter 5, Rainbow 6 : Vegas, Fight Night Round 3, The Darkness, NHL 2K7, Marvel : Ultimate Alliance, Gripshift, Blast Factor, and Ridge Racer 7. Those are all PS3 games that are worth playing in addition to the games he listed. As DD pointed out, there's more than 5 games on the PS3 worth playing. A good number of those are multiplatform at this point, though.

[violentp]

Ironically, I was trying to deter this very argument.

[oldjadedgamer]

Well, he could have also listed Virtua Fighter 5, Rainbow 6 : Vegas, Fight Night Round 3, The Darkness, NHL 2K7, Marvel : Ultimate Alliance, Gripshift, Blast Factor, and Ridge Racer 7. Those are all PS3 games that are worth playing in addition to the games he listed. As DD pointed out, there's more than 5 games on the PS3 worth playing. A good number of those are multiplatform at this point, though.

But back on topic... how many of those games REQUIRED the storage of Blu-Ray?

[Gorvi]

But back on topic... how many of those games REQUIRED the storage of Blu-Ray?
Not a single one. But then again, I've never said any games have yet. It could be helpful for some games further down the road in the next year or two, but not yet.

[Shodan2020]

Every format that comes out doesn't succeed, you know. Blu-Ray is not as important as DVD was, and will most definitely take longer to hit the install base DVD has.

Someone could have said the same thing you just said about Laserdisc

Or Betamax..... which was also Sony's... ;)

[Crowe]

I'm sick of all these debates about hardware. When it's going to be all about the games again. With the cost of both consoles and games I want more than great graphics, as long as the game keeps me entertained for hours on end then I'm happy with just 'good' graphics.

We don't post here because we have an eye for fine art. We post here because we love to play video games. It's ridiculous buying into the 'our disks are bigger therefore better'. I mean I got over 100 hours our of oblivion on my Xbox 360. 100 hours for christ sakes. Not because I thought looking at the game world was like looking at Jessica Alba naked. No because the gameplay sucked me in. So much so that I went back and played Morrowind. Did I not enjoy it's lack of graphics. Hell no its still as fun as the day I brought it.

It's sad reading all these pathetic posts about which consoles better because of disk size or hardware, what is it really going to get us. Are all they going to allow for is a few more textures?? No real gamer is going to choose one console over another for a few textures or a Day night sequence. Because they wont add to the amount of hours you commit to a game. It's all about the game play, graphics might add to the experience a little but not so much as to chose one console over another.

I didn't chose the 360 because it was cheaper, because the hardware was more superior than the previous Xbox.... No, I brought it because I knew that it had some Quality games out and coming out. Oblivion and Gears of war gave me too many hours. Halo 3 will give me some serious hours, so will Bioshock. But it's mass effect I'm looking forward to. I'm a sucker for a great storyline and excellent gameplay.I played Jade Empire 4 times through...and I can already tell ME is going to get even more of a thrashing.

So you console fan boys can sit here crying about which Console looks better on paper while trying to call yourself true gamers. Im going to be busy playing great games that fit onto one DVD, 10 DVD's, or one Blu-Ray. And all of my frustrations with the gaming world will be going towards shitty licensed games that sell well because mummy buys it for her son because he liked the movie, therefore forcing a lot of publishers to go for the safer bet.

[Jack B]

I'd rather have the larger space, that BluRay offers and the faster streaming, but there are some downsides like the slower seek times. I believe I'm correct here, but I'm not an HD-DVD expert.

Sony made up for the slower seek times by having all PS3's come with a hard drive, so content can be loaded onto the hard drive to improve times if needed. Microsoft has the Core, so they have don't have that same option, although I'm not sure if they don't allow it or if companies just haven't decided to use hard drive streaming as an option.

So far, it hasn't been a big issue as the vast majority of titles haven't needed more than one DVD-9. It's kept Microsoft's hardware costs down significantly and it's cheaper for the Publishers to produce the DVD-9 disks, so that probably helps profits per disk a bit too.

Blue Dragon is on 3 DVD-9's. It's not a show stopper as people have been playing multiple disk based games for years. I'd rather have one disk with BluRay, but it does cost more.... In the end, I'd say if costs were identical it may be an advantage for Sony, but it does cost more, so who knows.

Other than for console debate fodder, this issue really isn't that big of a deal, IMO.

[UnderHero5]

*inspiring post about gaming*
Great post, man. Seriously.

[Crowe]

Great post, man. Seriously.

Thanks man, half the time you see these arguments and you wonder to yourself whether these people even play games. Everyone should know that great games don't need great hardware. Only great developers backing their system.

PS3 and 360 both have an equal amount of great developers backing them that will see some serious 'must' own games for both systems. If anything we should be banding together and storming the forums of companies that make games like Pirates of the Caribbean.