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View Full Version : Bizzare Developer Claims DVD "Limiting" On Official PGR4 Forums


DeadlyDonkey
07-31-2007, 02:46 AM
According to developer over at the official Project Gotham 4 Racing forums, Bizzare have encountered some troubles fitting all of the data for a night / day mode for all of their PGR4 tracks onto a DVD disc. From the post:


You won’t see different times of day per city because this involves recreating all the textures again (one for day and one for night). Whilst this wasn’t a problem for our dev team, it was a problem fitting all this data onto a single DVD. So we’ve worked around the problem by providing different lighting models per city. For example, Macau is always in the daytime, but if you play it during a storm everything looks darker and more foreboding. If you play during a blizzard then things are slightly tinged blue and everything seems more frozen. Of course, playing this track in sunshine will make everything appear bright and yellowy.


Source (http://www.bizarrecreations.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=14802&p=) (third post down)

Are we going to start seeing the issue of space coming up for more and more developers this generation?

bapenguin
07-31-2007, 05:46 AM
This seems silly. If you have a real lighting model you don't need alternate textures for day and night. The only thing I can think of is something like Neon Lights, Windows that light up, or something similar.

Vandenh
07-31-2007, 05:46 AM
GIGANTIC yawn!

TrackZero
07-31-2007, 05:53 AM
This has already been trounced in the real thread for this in the forums. The developer just used a different (more intelligent) method to handle the lighting anyways.

360 Trolling: -1 point on DeadlyDonkey

DangerousDaze
07-31-2007, 05:54 AM
Woah, deja vu.

Ancalagon
07-31-2007, 05:55 AM
Who doesnt use dynamic lighting in this day and age?

DangerousDaze
07-31-2007, 05:58 AM
Woah, deja vu.

This has already been trounced in the real thread for this in the forums. The developer just used a different (more intelligent) method to handle the lighting anyways.

Actually, they used a frig to achieve somewhat the same effect because they had no choice. If they did have a choice then maybe they would have rendered the scenes in different lighting conditions, snow in winter, leaves on the track (and not on the trees) in autumn etc. etc.

tayaya
07-31-2007, 06:03 AM
PS3 games don't have this problem, thanks to teh powerz of teh blu-ray.

Seriously, though... MS got a lot of criticism early in the life of the 360 (like, so early it wasn't even out yet) for this very thing. HD-DVD and Blu-Ray were both just on the horizon, and the developers back then were concerned about 9GB being enough data for these next gen games.

I agree with Bappy up there about not needing two different sets of textures if one has a real lighting model, but since consoles (and most PCs) lack the horsepower needed to perform raytracing in real time (though wasn't there a PS3 presentation once that said the "power of the CELL" that Sony likes to brag about could do it?), we have to deal with a combination of true lighting and clever textures. Also, things like having the office lights on inside of buildings and things like that do call for alternate textures, unless we expect developers to model every room of a building and put little lights in them... so even with a proper lighting model, they'd still need more textres.

Honestly though, this is the first real case I've seen of a developer complaining about actually running out of space on the disc, as opposed to just bitching about how it could happen. The 360 devs have done amazing things with the limitations of the DVD media. In the case of PGR4 here though, I'm hoping just means there are a LOT of places to race. I know there's a lot of cities, but I am hoping the parts of those cities we get are bigger than in PGR3 also. Tokyo was a big letdown for me in PGR3 because it was such a tiny little area of the immediate area surrounding Shinjuku Station. There are so many better roads in Tokyo they could've used. Still, having spent a lot of time in Tokyo, I can tell you most of the businesses you see in the game are in the exact places they are supposed to be. My friend and I spent a few hours on launch night combing each block to find our favorite places, and I plan to do this when the new game comes out too if it's a new area of the city. Yay for non-repeating textures!

Ancalagon
07-31-2007, 06:10 AM
Also, things like having the office lights on inside of buildings and things like that do call for alternate textures, unless we expect developers to model every room of a building and put little lights in them...

First of all, to get light in places without actually having a light source, what you need is something called ambient light.

secondly, yes, different lighting would usually require the map and textures to be regenerated, but only in older games, or games with older lighting models. newer games use dynamic lighting, such as Doom3, which calculates that stuff on the fly. everytime you move your flashlight (torch) around in Doom3, it isnt generating new textures, its applying a lighting calculation to see how dark and light everything should be.

rein
07-31-2007, 06:18 AM
Wait, did the developer say the DVD was limiting or not? If he said it, end of story. After all, he is the one working on the game and would know first hand.

Gorvi
07-31-2007, 06:22 AM
Wait, did the developer say the DVD was limiting or not? If he said it, end of story. After all, he is the one working on the game and would know first hand.
Hey, now, no need to be rational. MDF members know much more about the game and the way it's made than the dev who's making it. ;)

Rune_74
07-31-2007, 06:31 AM
There are ways aroiund this, sounds like they prefered one disk.

Yeti2005
07-31-2007, 06:34 AM
Don't care. As HD become cheaper and cheaper, most of the data will be stored on the HD vs disks. Perhaps you've seen this in a console I like to call The PC.

Rune_74
07-31-2007, 06:41 AM
I don't get why you reposted this after having it in the other thread like to toot your own horn much?? Sure seems like trolling.

Ancalagon
07-31-2007, 06:46 AM
Lets go back to floppy disks, they were way better.

"Please insert Disk 3783 to continue installing Baldurs Gate 3"

Continuing Install...

"Warning: Disk 3783 has become corrupted. Perhaps you looked at it funny. Please replace all disks at your own expense."

DesignerKid
07-31-2007, 06:53 AM
This seems silly. If you have a real lighting model you don't need alternate textures for day and night. The only thing I can think of is something like Neon Lights, Windows that light up, or something similar.

It's just not feasible in most games. The fact remains lighting is only one aspect of a game so of course most developers are going with a hybrid approach. Some things are dynamic, while others effects are baked it.

bapenguin
07-31-2007, 06:59 AM
It's just not feasible in most games. The fact remains lighting is only one aspect of a game so of course most developers are going with a hybrid approach. Some things are dynamic, while others effects are baked it.

I mean it's definitley a performance trade off kind of thing, but the result you get with a true lighting model has so many benefits it just seems silly to not try and do it. You get so many things for "free" doing it that way.

But again, if performance is an issue, I see how the texture route would be the way to go.

Venkman
07-31-2007, 07:22 AM
I mean it's definitley a performance trade off kind of thing, but the result you get with a true lighting model has so many benefits it just seems silly to not try and do it. You get so many things for "free" doing it that way.

But again, if performance is an issue, I see how the texture route would be the way to go.

I think performance is an issue. People are still using baked lightmaps to suggest shadows for large, unmoving parts of terrains/levels, even on next gen systems. Those things can be massive. If I know what Bizarre is doing, they are using ambient occlusion and/or light maps all over the place to make their HDR lighting more convincing. Given the sheer size of their cities, that would mean massive amounts of assets to recreate and fit on disc.

I don't think the buildings in PGR cast real time shadows- they are lightmapped. Hence why some cities are not available in different times of day. It would increase the amount of space needed significantly.

PrivateJohn
07-31-2007, 07:41 AM
It's an exclusive developer for Microsoft...so, it definitely looks like DVD is starting to get "old".

TheFlyingOrc
07-31-2007, 07:45 AM
There are ways aroiund this, sounds like they prefered one disk.
I'd actually have to disagree - a racing game with two discs is a stupid idea. It really only works very well for straightforward games.

That being said, dynamic lighting is more or less expected these days.

Syl
07-31-2007, 07:59 AM
I've been wondering when this was going to be an issue. 9.something gigabytes is fine for general use; but once you start making textures for 1080p; the size of a game has to increase dramatically. Especially with high quality audio.

Rune_74
07-31-2007, 08:17 AM
Well you could make like say all american tracks on one disk and european tracks on the second one

PrivateJohn
07-31-2007, 08:52 AM
That would ruin the user experience...

kokyunage
07-31-2007, 08:54 AM
That would ruin the user experience...


Probably increase duplication, packaging and customer service costs as well

Johan
07-31-2007, 09:01 AM
Hey, now, no need to be rational. MDF members know much more about the game and the way it's made than the dev who's making it. ;)

Finally...someone gets it! :)

Leon_X_Macbeth
07-31-2007, 09:28 AM
Hey, now, no need to be rational. MDF members know much more about the game and the way it's made than the dev who's making it. ;)

I just felt the need to quote this statement for anyone here trying to think they have the solution for the devs when they aren't even making the fucking game in the first place.

Fact is games are getting bigger, meaning we'll need bigger space. If not, we'll get charged for the content not fitted on LIVE.

Vandenh
07-31-2007, 10:18 AM
here trying to think they have the solution for the devs when they aren't even making the fucking game in the first place.

This isn't Gamefaqs... a lot of us here are actually making fucking games.

Stric9
07-31-2007, 10:20 AM
Who doesnt use dynamic lighting in this day and age?

I don't think the best lighting model in the world is going to change the fact that you still need to change the sky texture for night and day which is I believe what they are talking about. And of course you would need a unique sky texture for each track, hence the reason it would take up so much space.

This isn't Gamefaqs... a lot of us here are actually making fucking games.

So what? Your not making this game, are you? I'm a programmer it doesn't somehow automatically give me some supernatural gift that allows me to know intricate details of problems faced in other peoples programs. Sure in some general sense you can theorize but all your really providing is a slightly more educated guess.

Vanthar
07-31-2007, 11:19 AM
This isn't Gamefaqs... a lot of us here are actually making fucking games.

You make fucking games? What Japanese dev house do you work for? And when is tentacle madness 16 coming out?

Tel Prydain
07-31-2007, 01:29 PM
You make fucking games? What Japanese dev house do you work for? And when is tentacle madness 16 coming out?
Vanthar for the win!

hainrs
07-31-2007, 02:21 PM
This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I'm a game developer, and you don't need two sets of textures for different times of day. This applies to both older games and newer ones. The ambient light of each level influences the brightness of the overall level, and that's how you get your daytime and nighttime textures using only one set. These developers sound like a bunch of dumbasses and need to find something else better to do like program databases for businesses.

I don't think the best lighting model in the world is going to change the fact that you still need to change the sky texture for night and day which is I believe what they are talking about. And of course you would need a unique sky texture for each track, hence the reason it would take up so much space

You may need a different texture for each level, but you still only need one for either time of day. Changing from day to night is not rocket science and you only need one sky texture/box to do it. There's no way these clowns have run out of space on a DVD. They're full of shit.

Mojopin
07-31-2007, 02:56 PM
This seems silly. If you have a real lighting model you don't need alternate textures for day and night.
Clearly all of you know more than ANYONE at Bizzare about lighting and textures, maybe you should fill them in on that info... since you all are such experts... el ohhhh ellll...

Vanthar
07-31-2007, 02:58 PM
This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I'm a game developer, and you don't need two sets of textures for different times of day. This applies to both older games and newer ones. The ambient light of each level influences the brightness of the overall level, and that's how you get your daytime and nighttime textures using only one set. These developers sound like a bunch of dumbasses and need to find something else better to do like program databases for businesses.



You may need a different texture for each level, but you still only need one for either time of day. Changing from day to night is not rocket science and you only need one sky texture/box to do it. There's no way these clowns have run out of space on a DVD. They're full of shit.

Not to be a dick to you and any other devs here but, they've made all the PGR games, which have been fantastic racing games.. what have YOU made?

Venkman
07-31-2007, 03:16 PM
This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I'm a game developer, and you don't need two sets of textures for different times of day. This applies to both older games and newer ones. The ambient light of each level influences the brightness of the overall level, and that's how you get your daytime and nighttime textures using only one set. These developers sound like a bunch of dumbasses and need to find something else better to do like program databases for businesses.



You may need a different texture for each level, but you still only need one for either time of day. Changing from day to night is not rocket science and you only need one sky texture/box to do it. There's no way these clowns have run out of space on a DVD. They're full of shit.

I think they might need them. A bright day is going to have harsh shadows across the city scape, while overcast will look much closer to an ambient occlusion pass. night time has different textures on the buildings. They aren't putting geometry ot lights inside the buildings.

There is no way they are using HDR lighting, making all the shadows of the entire city dynamic based off of some HDR skybox, then adding motion blur, anti-alising, and real time reflections and still have that thing run smoothly.

They are baking the textures and lighting into everything they can to keep that frame rate up.

DangerousDaze
07-31-2007, 03:19 PM
This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I'm a game developer, and you don't need two sets of textures for different times of day. ... They're full of shit.

As I said on this thread's evil twin, what if they want winter tracks with crisp drifts of snow, autumn tracks with heaps of leaves, brown and gold? What if they want rain-lashed vistas or baking heat and burning scrub? Lighting is just one aspect. Day and night are not the only possibilities.

Venkman
07-31-2007, 03:21 PM
It's just my educated guess, but shadows this smooth-

http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/1248/1120056994.jpg

-are not real time. They've gotta be baked into the texture. In PGR 3, that meant a different texture set for night, day, and overcast.

Venkman
07-31-2007, 03:25 PM
Here is a better shot. You can see the shadows of the trees baked into the terrain in their own development tool.

it's clear the lightmaps change per time of day. Given the size of the cities and the amount of textures, that is going to add up really quickly. Think night, day, overcast, snowy, and who knows what else.

http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/1248/full-res/1122276629.jpg

Emma Peel
07-31-2007, 10:17 PM
This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I'm a game developer, and you don't need two sets of textures for different times of day. This applies to both older games and newer ones. The ambient light of each level influences the brightness of the overall level, and that's how you get your daytime and nighttime textures using only one set. These developers sound like a bunch of dumbasses and need to find something else better to do like program databases for businesses.



You may need a different texture for each level, but you still only need one for either time of day. Changing from day to night is not rocket science and you only need one sky texture/box to do it. There's no way these clowns have run out of space on a DVD. They're full of shit.

You may be able to get away with using one set of textures with a different lighting models for some games, but if you really want things looking top notch you can't substitute cpu at this time for pre-computed lighting models.

Yes you can alter the ambient light, you can affect shadow darkness and color but this is only going to result in something that looks pretty good in each lighting situation, say mid day vs. twighlight, but not great. This may be convincing for some people but when you are trying to position your game as the best of the best you cant half ass something as important as lighting.

Also if you structure your game scenario and game play in a specific way you can really take advantage of dynamic shadows to give the impression of a more complicated dynamic lighting system. However dynamic shadows, as cool as they are, are not giving you subtle light and color changes, just shadow changes. A great example of this is doom3, really cool dynamic shadows, but its either lights on or lights off, not "its just about to rain" vs. "desert sun". Also most hardware can not handle more then one or two light sources without draging the frame count down to unacceptable levels.

Mixing dynamic lighting with dynamic shadows is going to get you even better results but not good enough for some applications.

Games which use baked lighting models in the textures can take hours to generate the lighting. More then a day of computation with a multi-core high end machine on a final light pass are not out of the realm of many high end games these days. You are not going to be able to approximate this real time on any current console or pc, this includes 360 or PS3.

So can you use a dynamic lighting model with dynamic shadows to create different times/lighting situations in games? Yes. See GTA series or Doom3. Can you use these solutions in a game where they are attempting to get as photo realistic as possible like PGR? No not right now.

I can see the conversation now deep inside the Bizzare of hainrs' imagination.

Artist: "Hey cant we just quickly change the ambient light color to give us day and night changes to the levels? Wouldn't this be a simple matter of changing some values in a code call to the renderer? This has been possible for years. We are trying to make the most realistic looking racing game ever and changing light would help this."

Programmer: "Hmm? A simple change to the brightness level in render pass. That might just give us a full realistic approximation of a complex lighting model. Why didn't I think of that myself? That would only take 5 minutes of work. Lets do it."

Producer: " Five minutes of work? I am not sure we can spare the time. Cant we just not do it and tell them we could not fit enough awsomeness on the disk? Yeah thats a much better idea! I will prepare the press release now."

phantomhitman
08-01-2007, 05:40 AM
the pgr 4....mmmmmmmmmm