Halo 3 Co-Op Hitting A Wall?

[Psykoboy2]

That's the word from Bungie, according to MaxConsole (http://www.maxconsole.net/?mode=news&newsid=19048):

Despite a two player co-op mode having been confirmed for Halo 3, it unfortunately looks as if the respective game mode will only be available as a LAN or split screen option as Bungie are struggling to get the co-op mode running on-line. Speaking to EG, Bungie's Frank O'Conner stated "I think the biggest problem for us for online co-op is that we have a situation where you can be in a Warthog with five troops, almost a mile away from the other player. That's a significant challenge." Although it may be possible that an online co-op mode could come by way of a new piece of downloadable content in the future.

And from Joystiq comes much the same (http://www.joystiq.com/2007/07/18/halo-3-co-op-is-offline-for-now/):

"We're not dumb. We know that people want it," Bungie's Frank O'Conner tells EGM. Currently, it appears that Halo 3 will ship without online co-op. We'll leave you with a few hopeful words from Frankie: "If we can make it happen in a way that works well, we will."

I really hope something solid comes out soon on this issue. I think pretty much all of us WANT online co-op. There was a rumor that it would have 4-player co-op online, but at this point, I'd be happy with just 2-player if it can happen. Anyone else have any solid info on this?

[bapenguin]

Fucking lame. Lame lame lame. Especially since it was originally supposed to have 4 player online co-op.

Hey Bungie...every other developer faces the same problem and has seemed to fix it. In fact, RealtimeWorlds on the Xbox 360 with Crackdown set a new bar. You can be on complete ends of the world and the Co-Op still works.

[Heretic Machine]

Gears of War, Rainbow Six Vegas and Crackdown all had online co-op. In Crackdown you could be on the opposite end of the city. It is ridiculous that Microsoft's flagship title could consider launching without online co-op. I mean, I get it, it is a different game than those I listed. But this game should of been built from the ground up with co-op in mind, it is the third in the series and people have been asking for it since the first.

I'm still going to buy it, but I'm a bit of a Halo fanboy as far as the plot goes. I know, a lot of people don't think there is a plot, but I do and I want to see it through.

[Goronmon]

Well, that pretty much sucks.

[Citizen Philip]

I can see the problem: you've got x players on x machines each machine, in real-time must sync all the streaming control commands, sync all creature movements, weapon and vehicle trajectories and sync all the other features, at once, all the time.

Solid info, no. But a messy business? Indeed.

[digitalErich]

Why not implement the warping like in Halo 1 when one player gets too far from the other? It woudn't be ideal, but it would be much, much better than no co-op at all.

Also, as others have stated, other games with large worlds have already done this. Also, from what we now know of the campaign, at least some of the levels were built with two players in mind. Combine that with Bungie knowing this has been what the community has wanted since Halo 1 and I have to wonder why they weren't working on this a lot sooner.

Oh, and note to devs: Stop with this "it could come in the future as downloadable content" bullshit. To me that says "we've pretty much given up at this point and have no solid plans to keep trying to get this to work after release." This is the new "wait for the sequel" excuse.

[total]

Fucking lame. Lame lame lame. Especially since it was originally supposed to have 4 player online co-op.

Hey Bungie...every other developer faces the same problem and has seemed to fix it. In fact, RealtimeWorlds on the Xbox 360 with Crackdown set a new bar. You can be on complete ends of the world and the Co-Op still works.

QFT

Lame is the perfect word to use here.

[Kamalot]

Fucking lame. Lame lame lame. Especially since it was originally supposed to have 4 player online co-op.
I believe the 4-player co-op was clearly marked as a rumor.

[TheFlyingOrc]

As I've said before:

Halo occupies an interesting place in the world of videogames, in that there is very little it does spectacularly well. Halo's main draw is that there is nothing wrong with it. Really - there is really no single thing bad about Halo. It executes everything VERY WELL, but almost nothing by itself blows you away - Graphics, single player campaign, multiplayer balance all fit.

Therefore, I have seen no evidence that Bungie is made of spectacularly skilled developers and programmers. Solid, to be sure - but I think stuff like this is just further evidence that they do many things good, and few things excellently.

[Gnomesbane]

Lack of co-op takes this game from Must Pre-Order to Wait For Price Drop status for me. I'm not into deathmatch so I only play Halo for the campaign.

[CaptStu]

I may have missed this ... When the hell did Psyko become red?! That's flippin' unbelieveable! I quit! You all can go suck it! Down with Evil Avatar!!!

;)

[Codicier]

If they're releasing in September, this seems like a fairly major problem to come to the fore this late in development.

I may have missed this ... When the hell did Psyko become red?! That's flippin' unbelieveable! I quit! You all can go suck it! Down with Evil Avatar!!!

;)

Yeah, Pysko is a huge troll. I can't believe they made someone like that red!!11!

C'mon Stu, let's go to Neogaf, where trolls aren't made into mods.....

.......

:D

[Mdot23]

via neo gaf: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7084880&postcount=1484

No denial there. This all stems from the EGM article that was leaked yesterday. I'm sure if they can get it working in the game, it will be in there.

And the article states Crackdown and Gears as examples, but it's some technical mumbo jumbo that I can't make out. The scans don't make it any easier to read either.

[bapenguin]

If they're releasing in September, this seems like a fairly major problem to come to the fore this late in development.



From what I heard at E3...Bungie had about 3 weeks until they closed the code too. So depending on how old the EGM Article is (ie when the interview actually took place) this is not looking good.

[Xerxes]

WEAK!

Like you'll said, Crackdown allows you to be like two cities away. Causing mayhem, and ONLY when somebody is doing some crazy shit like stack cars on the free way to blowing things up do you even see a hiccup.

[Acidpoptart]

I can see the problem: you've got x players on x machines each machine, in real-time must sync all the streaming control commands, sync all creature movements, weapon and vehicle trajectories and sync all the other features, at once, all the time.

Solid info, no. But a messy business? Indeed.
Do they not have any dedicated network programmers over there or something? You are right in that those all could be issues, but they really don't send all that data all the time or anything. I don't understand why this is such an issue. Like many have said before, Crackdown had players running around a giant city and causing destruction where ever they went. Those coders knew what they were doing.

And before anyone tells me I don't know what I am talking about, let me say this: This is exactly the type of work I am doing. My job title is Network Programmer.

Maybe Bungie should hire me :p

[MaxDuo]

Wait.... "It may come through download in the future." ......so....... They're releasing an incomplete game? Somewhat?

So sad. I figured online Co-op would be awesome. When I heard of Gears of War having it, I was like: "Ooo, Halo 3 is going to have online co-op." Sadness.

[SPBTooL]

This is just more reason why I will rent or wait for a price drop. I want to finish the story and co-op with my kids is the only reason why I might buy it. There are just way to many games coming out at the same time. Most of those games will have better online and more to offer than just another shooter.

[Codicier]

via neo gaf: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7084880&postcount=1484

No denial there. This all stems from the EGM article that was leaked yesterday. I'm sure if they can get it working in the game, it will be in there.

And the article states Crackdown and Gears as examples, but it's some technical mumbo jumbo that I can't make out. The scans don't make it any easier to read either.

If I could roll my eyes any harder at the retarded comments in that thread they would explode with a concussive force strong enough to knock twenty bull elephants into outer space.

[Wedge]

Awwww, fuck! Co-op is/was the best part of Halo by a long shot (for me). And by the time it launches I'll live in Nothingsville, Far Away, with no one to play with splitscreen.

Shitcunts. We should kill Bungie's network programmer. In fact: We should kill ALL network programmers.

Edit: Exept Acidpoptart.

[Mdot23]

If I could roll my eyes any harder at the retarded comments in that thread they would explode with a concussive force strong enough to knock twenty bull elephants into outer space.

haha, true. hence the reason i don't post over there and only linked to the individual quote.

[Phades]

It's not like MS would make sure they had a huge budget for this game or anything. :rolleyes:

I'd think they'd see how popular coop now is and hire some person/people just to work on that. I honestly may not buy this now, probably just rent or borrow it from a friend.

[Shjinta]

Fucking lame. Lame lame lame. Especially since it was originally supposed to have 4 player online co-op.

Hey Bungie...every other developer faces the same problem and has seemed to fix it. In fact, RealtimeWorlds on the Xbox 360 with Crackdown set a new bar. You can be on complete ends of the world and the Co-Op still works.


Wow Ba, that's the first time I've seen you act like a little spoiled selfish child..
How did crackdown set a new bar. Crackdown was built from the ground up with that feature cause they needed something to sell the game. I think the issue with Halo 3 is syncing the AI and physics.

[GodFather]

"We just figured out a way too have online coop"
cost?
800 points

[Acidpoptart]

Haha thank you, Wedge, for saving me from the network programmer holocaust.

As for:
Wow Ba, that's the first time I've seen you act like a little spoiled selfish child..
How did crackdown set a new bar. Crackdown was built from the ground up with that feature cause they needed something to sell the game. I think the issue with Halo 3 is syncing the AI and physics.
I don't really understand what you are saying here... Crackdown did a fantastic job with the co-op, and yes games often include features to be more appealing and sell more copies. And does Crackdown NOT have AI and physics? Hell, there are probably more things flying around and blowing up at any given moment in Crackdown than there are in Halo. And the whole syncing AI and physics? Its not like these are the first games to have to handle this. This is NOT a new challenge. Bungie has been doing this for years and its not like Co-op was some last minute thing they want to just throw on there. They are about quality for sure.

I think it is fair to be angry about Co-op being possibly out because Halo 3 really doesn't do many new things. Co-op was one of the few awesome new things to look forward to, so it is a bummer when a sweet feature might get left out.

[digitalErich]

While I'm not giving them a pass (co-op should be there as this is a flagship, 1st party game with a huge budget) the more I think about it the more the comparisons to Crackdown and Gears seem technically out of place.

In Crackdown, the dynamic parts of the world (cars, people) have very, very simple to virtually no AI at all. That really takes a load off the processor for large scale worlds. With Gears, the maps are small and linear and it's rare, if impossible by design, for one person to be on the other end of the map, fighting a completely different set of enemies.

Now, like I said, co-op still should be included, it's just the more i think about it, the more I don't like the game comparisons being made. Hell, implement a forced warping model. People would still complain a little, but they would also be having a blast playing some form of co-op.

To me, Halo 3 witout online co-op is just Halo 2 with better graphics. It won't even be the jump Halo to Halo 2 was.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Wow Ba, that's the first time I've seen you act like a little spoiled selfish child..
How did crackdown set a new bar. Crackdown was built from the ground up with that feature cause they needed something to sell the game. I think the issue with Halo 3 is syncing the AI and physics.
No, crackdown was built from the ground up with the Halo 3 Beta to sell the game.

[Acidpoptart]

Not all assets are being processed and handled at all times. Its not like large single player levels are giving them issues. The same goes with Co-op. Sure, there are more things to process, but you take similar steps to reduce the amount of stuff being processed and communicated.

[Wolvie]

Man, Bungie sucks at online co-op. Seriously, somebody needs to send some dudes from Epic over to Bungie and show em how it's done.

[MrWonderstuff]

Look whinging gamers...again.

Never played Halo co-op or any other game. As long as the single player is robust and fun I don't mind.

If there is a download in the future that's a bonus.

[Zanzibar]

Very disappointing. But I agree, they should 'warp' the other player as in Halo 1. It's probably a vehicle issue.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Man, Bungie sucks at online co-op. Seriously, somebody needs to send some dudes from Epic over to Bungie and show em how it's done.
Also graphics.

[digitalErich]

Look whinging gamers...again.

Never played Halo co-op or any other game. As long as the single player is robust and fun I don't mind.

If there is a download in the future that's a bonus.
Yep, there's yer problem right there. You best fix that.
/car mechanic

[shunoshi]

Wow, this really sucks. This was the #1 reason for me to buy Halo 3. Very disappointing....

[Vandenh]

All the people that claim this is lame... STFU and learn to program games.

If they can make it work, they will if not, a pity. Has nothing to do with their technical lack of skillz like so many of you backseat developers claim but with the amount of data that needs to be send. Yea Crackdown did it... so apparently Crackdown has a lower bandwith requirement for all the stuff that is going on. Crackdown has much "easier" AI for example...

[Codicier]

From what I heard at E3...Bungie had about 3 weeks until they closed the code too. So depending on how old the EGM Article is (ie when the interview actually took place) this is not looking good.

Well it doesn't sound like it's a "we can't program this" problem so much as a "technical limitations" problem.

According to this, co-op works in fast connection situations like on one box or between two directly connected boxes. For some reason, their implementation sounds like it has trouble with situations where there's variable lag. If co-op were a high priority, I'd surmise that this would have come up in very early tests of the co-op feature so something seems off.

For people citing Crackdown as a source, that game was built from the ground up with scale in mind, and not only that but is also instanced so that the only populated area is a radius around your characters. I'm sure this has something to do with the reason it works so easily in Crackdown.

Keep in mind that fast tech is useless unless you've designed your stuff to get it to do what you want. As a professor of mine is fond of saying about programming: "Nothing means anything unless you make it mean something". I'd say that applies at least somewhat in this situation.

Anyway, I'm not any kind of "expert" but I don't think this is an illogical set of assumptions.

EDIT: Beaten to the "built from the ground up" defense by, like, everybody.

[Hecubus]

I understand the concept of different games requires different approaches and concerning Crackdown, digitalerich expresses this idea above. But since I'm not a professional programmer, designer, producer (of games at least), etc. my mind can't quite wrap itself around what Bungie has said.

As another poster above stated, this is the flagship title. If they want to do it, Microsoft would reasonably throw any funds they need to get it done (in order to hire more network programmers for instance), especially since Bungie previously revealed that online co-op would ship with the game (please correct me if I'm wrong here.) No broken promises please.

Back to Crackdown, the open city world of that game is immense, and again, while I know they're different games, I don't see any Halo 3 levels approaching the vastness of the Crackdown world by any measure--co-op was implemented very well. Why can't Bungie accomplish this on smaller levels/maps? Just asking.

[Xerxes]

Even PDZ had Live Co-OP.

[NationalKato]

You can place blame with Bungie, rightfully so, but let's not lose sight of the fact that unlike some developers (Epic) Bungie is going to ship according to schedule, not when the game is ready. If Microsoft gave them the leverage to fix the game fully before shipping, you'd see working online co-op.

[KSmitty]

Look whinging gamers...again.

Never played Halo co-op or any other game. As long as the single player is robust and fun I don't mind.

If there is a download in the future that's a bonus.
Man I hope the single player is robust, because honestly with the way you could breeze through single player all Halo2 really had going for it was multiplayer. The only replay value in single player campaign was playing again on a harder difficulty.

[Mdot23]

This game is totally stripped down with no online co-op. Lazy ass Bungie. Just make it work! I don't know shit about programming but just fucking do it!

/sarcasm off.

[Heretic Machine]

Keep in mind that fast tech is useless unless you've designed your stuff to get it to do what you want.

Here is a question for you: Why didn't they build Halo 3 with online co-op in mind? Being one of the most frequently requested features since the original game, you'd figure that would be one of their top priorities; you're making it sound like an after thought. This is totally inexcusable.

[Goronmon]

All the people that claim this is lame... STFU and learn to program games.Apparently the new rule is that you aren't allowed to discuss gaming unless you are a developer. Everyone else is no longer allowed to post here. Sorry guys, Vandenh said so.

Well, Halo 3 is looking to be a fairly basic update on the series. Kind of disappointing, I figured online co-op would be something Bungie felt was important, but apparently not.

[Baron Samedi]

You who are not programmers fundamentally misunderstand the issue. Crackdown has lots of random spawning people who don't need to do anything unless the player is in the vicinity. Even then, the AI is very low level - either run away, shoot or completely ignore the player - that's not very cpu or memory intensive. With Halo every onscreen character must react from moment to moment exactly to what a player is doing. Add in the tremendous draw in distance and vehicles, and you've got huge memory problems. Gears works because the environments are so bloody small and firefights are limited to no more than a half a dozen enemies plus the player(s). Halo is also a faster game, which doesn't help.

[CptTripps]

Fucking lame. Lame lame lame. Especially since it was originally supposed to have 4 player online co-op.

Hey Bungie...every other developer faces the same problem and has seemed to fix it. In fact, RealtimeWorlds on the Xbox 360 with Crackdown set a new bar. You can be on complete ends of the world and the Co-Op still works.

In all fairness, I played Crackdown with my neighbor over live and the netcode in that game is far from perfect (we are on the same Router/Cable Modem). Disconnected once or twice and quite a bit of lag at times. Still had a blast, but pretty noticeable imo.

[Deadend]

the game has been in development for how many years? And apparently was not built around co-op online?

Stupid, and crappy.

My respect for Bungine just dropped.

[CptTripps]

dbl post.....

[Wolvie]

Also graphics.

Anyone who says this needs their fucking eyes checked. Seriously, you are one blind sonofabitch.

[Shodan2020]

Man that sucks, online co-op would so rock. Can you imagine 4 EvAvers kicking ass all at once in co-op? I can, and it makes me weep tears of joy. It's a good thing my roomie is getting Halo 3, I can LAN with him easy.

[bapenguin]

Wow Ba, that's the first time I've seen you act like a little spoiled selfish child..
How did crackdown set a new bar. Crackdown was built from the ground up with that feature cause they needed something to sell the game. I think the issue with Halo 3 is syncing the AI and physics.

So why wouldn't Bungie build the Co-Op into the game from the "ground up?"

It's not like they didn't realize it's one of the most wanted features of the game. Crackdown set the bar by having the players completely independant of each other in the same game world in a peer to peer game.

Maybe I'm acting like a spoiled child, but that's because developers are beginning to spoil us with Co-Op modes. If there was one common theme at E3 it was the fact that just about every other game had a co-op mode playable online. Hell...HALO WARS...and RTS is going to have online co-op.

I just don't see any excuse for this from Bungie.

[bapenguin]

In all fairness, I played Crackdown with my neighbor over live and the netcode in that game is far from perfect (we are on the same Router/Cable Modem). Disconnected once or twice and quite a bit of lag at times. Still had a blast, but pretty noticeable imo.

I agree, but I'll take less than perfect rather than none at all.

[DeadlyDonkey]

Wow, the HDF is out in full force today!

[digitalErich]

All the people that claim this is lame... STFU and learn to program games.
While I agree that there is too much armchair programming going on here, saying that because Bungie can't pull this off, it must be impossible is just as specualtive as saying Bungie lacks the knowledge to implement co-op.

I suspect it's a combination. This would a challege for any dev house, but this is still Bungie's first foray into online co-op on a console.

What this does tell me, and I think anyone in software will agree, is that Bungie does not consider co-op as important of a feature as many of us do. You simply don't wait until this late in the dev cycle to do this level of testing of a major feature. This tells me that co-op was not a top concern of Bungie's when they set out to do Halo 3, which is really too bad.

[Shjinta]

So why wouldn't Bungie build the Co-Op into the game from the "ground up?"

It's not like they didn't realize it's one of the most wanted features of the game. Crackdown set the bar by having the players completely independant of each other in the same game world in a peer to peer game.

Maybe I'm acting like a spoiled child, but that's because developers are beginning to spoil us with Co-Op modes. If there was one common theme at E3 it was the fact that just about every other game had a co-op mode playable online. Hell...HALO WARS...and RTS is going to have online co-op.

I just don't see any excuse for this from Bungie.

Because they never did.. Halo 1 and 2 Were not built from the ground up to support Co op... Number 2 is one definite set of proof considering how badly co op runs on it. I'm sure it has to do with how restricted and linear the levels are going to be, maybe this is a foreshadow of how bad halo 3 is going to be level design wise?

No one wants Co-op more than me. But I want Split Screen co op more. I play with my friend on my TV. System link and Live are fucking useless for me. Split Screen co op determines if I buy the title or not. So we are sort of in the same boat.

[DaXIthR]

Therefore, I have seen no evidence that Bungie is made of spectacularly skilled developers and programmers. Solid, to be sure - but I think stuff like this is just further evidence that they do many things good, and few things excellently.

That does it. I'm putting you on my Ignore List for the time being.

Your posts have been kicking my ass into a delicate, organic grape preserve lately. I can't take it anymore.

[Adam Blue]

This is one of those games that co-op isn't a big deal. Now a game like Syphon Filter Omega Strain? Definitely.

[Codicier]

Here is a question for you: Why didn't they build Halo 3 with online co-op in mind? Being one of the most frequently requested features since the original game, you'd figure that would be one of their top priorities; you're making it sound like an after thought. This is totally inexcusable.

You're right, I'm sure they'll take your customer service ticket and get right on that. :rolleyes:

[Kamalot]

No one wants Co-op more than me. But I want Split Screen co op more. I play with my friend on my TV.
I love co-op in games and love the idea of a 4-player co-op mode, but split-screen co-op would get a ton more use than any amount of online Co-Op.

[bapenguin]

Because they never did.. Halo 1 and 2 Were not built from the ground up to support Co op... Number 2 is one definite set of proof considering how badly co op runs on it. I'm sure it has to do with how restricted and linear the levels are going to be, maybe this is a foreshadow of how bad halo 3 is going to be level design wise?

No one wants Co-op more than me. But I want Split Screen co op more. I play with my friend on my TV. System link and Live are fucking useless for me. Split Screen co op determines if I buy the title or not. So we are sort of in the same boat.

Again...my question is why not do it with 3? Just because 1 and 2 didn't? That's not a valid answer. Of course this wouldn't be THAT huge of a deal if they weren't talking about having online co-op since the game was announced last year.

That's great that all of your friends live locally, but most of mine have moved away and Live is the only way I play with them.

I just hope they dont' release the game without online co-op and then SELL it later.

[Lima Beans]

All the people that claim this is lame... STFU and learn to program games.

Ok, I am a professional game programmer with 8 years pro. experience, and I say this is lame.

[Mdot23]

co-op is for people who can't beat Legendary on their own.......i kid.

Something still seems fishy to me. Bungie never promised or confirmed online co-op was in the game, but they repeatedly said, "we're aware of what our fans want and nobody will be disappointed", which is more or less a round-about confirmation. so why wouldn't they come out and say, "look, we want it in the game, but it's not working at this time, so don't get your hopes up"? They've never been secretive of features that people are expecting but aren't in the game; that's just not how they operate. They seem like one of the more open developers and I don't see why they would drag along the fan base for so long without an open confirmation or denial, just hints.

long story short: i'm not entirely convinced that online co-op is not in the game. if it's not, i would have expected an announcement earlier, not one in a magazine that comes out a month and a half before the game ships. confusion ensues.

[Citizen Philip]

Do they not have any dedicated network programmers over there or something? You are right in that those all could be issues, but they really don't send all that data all the time or anything. I don't understand why this is such an issue. Like many have said before, Crackdown had players running around a giant city and causing destruction where ever they went. Those coders knew what they were doing.

...

Maybe Bungie should hire me :p

If they are wrapping up original code with new layers of support, the engine maybe fundamentally, ill equipped to handle the processing efficiently. In order to reorganize the engine, they would have to have re-written it.

You know, like rolling DOS into Win 3.x into Win 95 into Win 98 into Win XP.. :p

[CptTripps]

Ya know, I'm kinda with the split screen guy. I would probably play H3 co-op on Live about as much as GoW (which is never). Shit, I don't even plan on buying this game as I'm not into their MP too much. Should be a nice rental though.

[Yeti2005]

I can't believe no one picked up on the "...a situation where you can be in a Warthog with five troops, almost a mile away from the other player."

A mile away?! That's a big f*cking map. At least Bungie knows everyone wants it (co-op online) and they're trying to put it into the game.

Edit: And for those people comparing it to Crackdown, you're talking about a totally different game. Crackdown is essentially one area. You don't hop from planet to planet or change locations or activate cut scenes or scripted events.

[Heretic Machine]

You're right, I'm sure they'll take your customer service ticket and get right on that. :rolleyes:

Yeah, I know, they get away with this shit because people are still going to buy it. They're the fucks who are ruining the industry.

I hope Mario Galaxy rapes their ass.

[Rune_74]

Its funny when a nintendo fan boy calls out graphics....actually its bizarre.

[digitalErich]

Tech aside, which several of us have covered, asking why co-op was not a primary feature from the beginning design parts of Halo 3 is a valid criticism of Bungie. Whether you play it or not, whether you like it or not, a very, very large portion of the Halo community had been asking for this and Bungie was fully aware of this.

[DeadlyDonkey]

The amount of BAWWWW in this thread is legendary.

Come to me, sweet sweet Halo-fan tears.

[Goronmon]

Split screen co-op is useless to me as I don't know anyone in my state that owns a 360, haha.

This tells me that co-op was not a top concern of Bungie's when they set out to do Halo 3, which is really too bad.Agreed, and that's what annoys me at this news. They talk as if they know people really are craving it, yet then they pretty much admit that they've considered it purely a "bonus" feature even after they are finishing up the 3rd iteration.

[Rune_74]

What state do you live in Alaska?

[Goronmon]

The amount of BAWWWW in this thread is legendary.

Come to me, sweet sweet Halo-fan tears.Can we make some sort of rule banning posts like this? People can act like a fucking retard on plenty of othermessage boards. No need to bring this crap here.

[CptTripps]

You know, like rolling DOS into Win 3.x into Win 95 into Win 98 into Win XP.. :p

You missed Win ME :)

[Goronmon]

What state do you live in Alaska?Maine, so pretty close.

[CptTripps]

What state do you live in Alaska?

Why yes I do....

[DeadlyDonkey]

Can we make some sort of rule banning posts like this? People can act like a fucking retard on plenty of othermessage boards. No need to bring this crap here.

If we did that, we'd have to ban half the reds. Kamalot would have to be banned several times, in fact.

[Rune_74]

Maine, so pretty close.

heheh I'm gonna go with you are joking about being close.....please tell me you are.

[Ghostbear]

personally online coop was the only reason i planned on buying this game. i have moved away from my friends that i played most video games with. I will wait and see, but if it doesn't have this feature at launch i will not be buying it

[Pluvious]

Man you guys like to bitch and moan! "Waaa I won't buy Halo3 because of this", "I'm waiting for the bargin bin" (like that's going to happen) Suck it up and deal with it. Have you considered that Bungie has standards that they want to keep and they don't want to slap on a weak Co-op? I rather they dropped it instead of just tacking it on and getting slammed in the reviews about how bad Co-op is.. I think they know what they are doing and I trust that if they can't get it into the release is was because they didn't want to do a sloppy job with it. Cut them some slack kids.

[Acidpoptart]

If they are wrapping up original code with new layers of support, the engine maybe fundamentally, ill equipped to handle the processing efficiently. In order to reorganize the engine, they would have to have re-written it.

You know, like rolling DOS into Win 3.x into Win 95 into Win 98 into Win XP.. :p
Yeah its true the engine might not be best for co-op, but I am surprised they decided to add co-op later on in the project, as this is usually a large challenge that one plans ahead for. Hopefully they can pull it off. They have some smart people over there, so the only limitation they have is time. Hey, if it is a free download soon after release, I will be happy.

Anyone know how many players multiplayer is designed to support in modes like Slayer and CTF?

[bapenguin]

If we did that, we'd have to ban half the reds. Kamalot would have to be banned several times, in fact.

We're gonna be banning you soon. You've been trolling quite a bit lately.

[Mdot23]

Another post by Frankie on Gaf: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7091256&postcount=20

[Yeti2005]

...Agreed, and that's what annoys me at this news. They talk as if they know people really are craving it, yet then they pretty much admit that they've considered it purely a "bonus" feature even after they are finishing up the 3rd iteration.

Goronmon, if you're Bungie then how would you prioritize development. Do you let single player or multiplayer suffer so co-op can be implemented? Time and development cost are a factor so getting everything polished to perfection on all aspects of the game (single, multi, and co-op) isn't always possible. And before you say "Halo is MS flagship, they can afford to pay the extra money", that's definitely true but MS also needs AAA titles in a timely manner (i.e. this Fall) to help combat the PS3 and Wii.

[Rune_74]

We're gonna be banning you soon. You've been trolling quite a bit lately.

Bap you know how to make me smile:)

[DeadlyDonkey]

We're gonna be banning you soon. You've been trolling quite a bit lately.

:)

10 char

[Ghostbear]

Man you guys like to bitch and moan! "Waaa I won't buy Halo3 because of this", "I'm waiting for the bargin bin" (like that's going to happen) Suck it up and deal with it. Have you considered that Bungie has standards that they want to keep and they don't want to slap on a weak Co-op? I rather they dropped it instead of just tacking it on and getting slammed in the reviews about how bad Co-op is.. I think they know what they are doing and I trust that if they can't get it into the release is was because they didn't want to do a sloppy job with it. Cut them some slack kids.
i partially agree with you here, i think that if it would have been shitty coop then that would have been worse than none, however telling me to "suck it up and deal with it" is asinine. It does not have a feature i consider essential to my purchasing it, therefore my not buying it is completely valid

[Goronmon]

heheh I'm gonna go with you are joking about being close.....please tell me you are.Close in the sense of obscurity and population-wise.

[Venkman]

Hey Bungie...every other developer faces the same problem and has seemed to fix it. In fact, RealtimeWorlds on the Xbox 360 with Crackdown set a new bar. You can be on complete ends of the world and the Co-Op still works.

That's true, but the people you see on the street on player 1's screen in Crackdown do not have to synch up with the people you see on the street on player 2's screen.

Halo has larger, triggered events like Half life. Drop ships will be called in, different dialog and music is triggered, etc. Crackdown is more of a sandbox title where the world is pretty much oblivious to you 3 blocks away. I understand why that is an issue even if it does stink for online players.

[digitalErich]

Another post by Frankie on Gaf: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7091256&postcount=20
Well, that makes me feel a little better. I don't surf Gaf so I'll take it at your word that the poster is, indeed, Frankie.

[Rune_74]

Hey as long as my son and I can play coop split screen I'm happy...

[Citizen Philip]

Yeah its true the engine might not be best for co-op, but I am surprised they decided to add co-op later on in the project, as this is usually a large challenge that one plans ahead for. Hopefully they can pull it off. They have some smart people over there, so the only limitation they have is time. Hey, if it is a free download soon after release, I will be happy.

..

I would imagine that certain features were put on the list at the beginning of production and multiplayer co-op was one of them.

The end result was "Rewriting the engine only for coop, and delaying the release is not worth it. Move ahead as is, and we will work on it when the time comes.

Perhaps they can pull it off.

[Goronmon]

Goronmon, if you're Bungie then how would you prioritize development.By building the game from the ground up with the intention to include online co-op. I haven't seen any evidence from Bungie that they considered it anything other than a bonus feature that they had hoped to get in before they development window was done.

[Codicier]

Split screen co-op is useless to me as I don't know anyone in my state that owns a 360, haha.

Wouldn't that make splitscreen co-op *very* useful to you? :confused:

Yeah, I know, they get away with this shit because people are still going to buy it. They're the fucks who are ruining the industry.

I hope Mario Galaxy rapes their ass.

My point was actually that it's probably never been a huge goal to cater to your or any other fan's specific request. Yes it's desirable if they can do it but for the most part the wishes of fans rarely become design document material for obvious reasons.

That said, it looked like they were going for online co-op anyway and all I was doing was speculating.

Also, c'mon Perigon, when has there ever been a huge boycott due to missing features in a game? I doubt ever because most people really don't live or die by back of box bullet points. "No online co-op?! OH Noes! Boycott!!1". And "ruining the industry"? Overdramatize much?

All in all, you need to lay off the Haterade.

[Morangie]

Anyone know how many players multiplayer is designed to support in modes like Slayer and CTF?
16, same as Halo 2.

[CptTripps]

heheh I'm gonna go with you are joking about being close.....please tell me you are.

Does not seem "that" far...

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa178/JamieSpurgeon/usa02.htm_txt_usa.gif

[Zanzibar]

Crackdown also wasn't story-driven in the same way Halo is. Plot-point 'reveals' via in-game cutscenes would have to wait until both players arrived at a particular location, and it's possible that Player 1 can arrive and drive PAST a cutscene point before Player 2 is within range, breaking the game. Often, enemy spawns are controlled by the cutscene, so if the cutscene doesn't finish, the enemies don't spawn.

I agree, I don't think it's a programming issue, it's a design issue.

EDIT: Wait a minute, what the fuck am I talking about, that's not the issue, because then they couldn't do co-op AT ALL.

Nevermind.

[digitalErich]

*snip*
Bungie already solved this issue in Halo 1.
Edit: Yeah, what you said :)

[Goronmon]

Wouldn't that make splitscreen co-op *very* useful to you? :confused:I meant in the sense that I don't know anyone who's into gaming enough to really care that Halo 3 is coming out, haha.

[Mdot23]

Well, that makes me feel a little better. I don't surf Gaf so I'll take it at your word that the poster is, indeed, Frankie.

yea, it's definitely him. He and Luke post in there daily. Here's his last post: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7091429&postcount=57

I think he just likes fucking with people haha. I would have expected a confirmation if it was NOT in at this point, instead of continuing a "lie".

[Heretic Machine]

Wouldn't that make splitscreen co-op *very* useful to you? :confused:



My point was actually that it's probably never been a huge goal to cater to your or any other fan's specific request. Yes it's desirable if they can do it but for the most part the wishes of fans rarely become design document material for obvious reasons.

That said, it looked like they were going for online co-op anyway and all I was doing was speculating.

Also, c'mon Perigon, when has there ever been a huge boycott due to missing features in a game? I doubt ever because most people really don't live or die by back of box bullet points. "No online co-op?! OH Noes! Boycott!!1". And "ruining the industry"? Overdramatize much?

All in all, you need to lay of the Haterade.

Ya, there has never been a widescale boycott of any game by the fans. There probably never will be, but there most definitely should be with the kind of crap we put up with.

"Don't worry, you won't be disappointed!"

"Why are you crying, cry baby?! We never promised to do what everyone has wanted us to do since Halo."

[Mdot23]

If online co-op DOES end up being in the game, can we just copy this thread as the talkback and laugh?

[Lima Beans]

Ya, there has never been a widescale boycott of any game by the fans.

Hmm, I would say that *most* games suffer from a widescale boycott...? Often because features are missing that people might be interested in?

[digitalErich]

I think he just likes fucking with people haha. I would have expected a confirmation if it was NOT in at this point, instead of continuing a "lie".
See, I see it totally different. I would think they would want to put this fire out now by simply coming out and at least saying "don't worry guys." If I were running a dev house, I wouldn't annouce a left out feature until release day. That way, the people who wanted this feature and are complaining are drowned out in the release hype.

I hope co-op is in, but I'd like some confirmation that it's in. But asking for confirmation from Bungie is like asking me to not attract international supermodels...it's just not going to happen.

[CptTripps]

Close in the sense of obscurity and population-wise.

What you said interested me, so I did some research, fun facts...

Populations as of July 05
Alaska = 663,661
Maine = 1,321,505

Alaska = 656,425 square miles (1 person per mile)
Maine = 35,387 square miles (37 people per mile)

From Anchorage the nearest US city is Seattle at 2360 Miles or 48 hours straight driving.
From Bangor it's 445.27 miles to New York city or about 7 hours doing the speed limit :)

/hijack

HALO3 FOR THE WOOT?

[Zanch]

Unacceptable. Get on it, Bungie.

[Mdot23]

See, I see it totally different. I would think they would want to put this fire out now by simply coming out and at least saying "don't worry guys." If I were running a dev house, I wouldn't annouce a left out feature until release day. That way, the people who wanted this feature and are complaining are drowned out in the release hype.


I figure that they'd just remain quiet on the whole subject if it wasn't in, instead of toying with people.

Oh well, I'm sure we'll find out soon enough.

[Mdot23]

Alaska = 656,425 square miles (1 person per mile)


Hahaha sick.

[Goronmon]

What you said interested me, so I did some research, fun facts...I lived in Mass up to a year ago, so add these stats:

Populations as of July 05
Alaska = 663,661
Maine = 1,321,505
Mass = 6,437,193

Alaska = 656,425 square miles (1 person per mile)
Maine = 35,387 square miles (37 people per mile)
Mass = 7,840 square miles (810 people per mile)

So, from my perspective, I consider Alaska and Maine pretty close, haha.

[sprankton]

What you said interested me, so I did some research, fun facts...

Populations as of July 05
Alaska = 663,661
Maine = 1,321,505

Alaska = 656,425 square miles (1 person per mile)
Maine = 35,387 square miles (37 people per mile)

From Anchorage the nearest US city is Seattle at 2360 Miles or 48 hours straight driving.
From Bangor it's 445.27 miles to New York city or about 7 hours doing the speed limit :)

/hijack

HALO3 FOR THE WOOT?


You could stop by Vancouver BC before you hit Seattle!

[digitalErich]

I figure that they'd just remain quiet on the whole subject if it wasn't in, instead of toying with people.
Yeah, that is an excellent point; I hadn't thought of it like that.

[CptTripps]

I lived in Mass up to a year ago, so add these stats:

Populations as of July 05
Alaska = 663,661
Maine = 1,321,505
Mass = 6,437,193

Alaska = 656,425 square miles (1 person per mile)
Maine = 35,387 square miles (37 people per mile)
Mass = 7,840 square miles (810 people per mile)

So, from my perspective, I consider Alaska and Maine pretty close, haha.

Haha, when put like that you are indeed correct. Wow, 810 per mile, that would drive me crazy, unless they were all hot naked chicks.

[GunnyMo]

Fucking lame. Lame lame lame. Especially since it was originally supposed to have 4 player online co-op.

Hey Bungie...every other developer faces the same problem and has seemed to fix it. In fact, RealtimeWorlds on the Xbox 360 with Crackdown set a new bar. You can be on complete ends of the world and the Co-Op still works.

My damn point exactly. This is a real, real big disappointment if it comes true. You can have huge multiplayer maps in Halo 2 with people at opposite ends. Why is that so difficult for co-op?

Fumble by Bungie! Sad. :mad:

[Crenor]

like most other games, just tether them.
Issue solved, next.

This is a buy/no buy feature for me and a few buddies. I have no issues with tethering, this is not a new issue, just do the you get to far and get teleported to player 1. I have no issues with that solution.

[Mdot23]

Haha, when put like that you are indeed correct. Wow, 810 per mile, that would drive me crazy, unless they were all hot naked chicks.

New Jersey: 1,134/square mile

Never underestimate the drawing power of the Garden State.

[Vandenh]

Ok, I am a professional game programmer with 8 years pro. experience, and I say this is lame.

ORLY? Well me too and I think maybe you should apply for a job at Bungie since you obviously know how to do this. You can make some good money.

You can have huge multiplayer maps in Halo 2 with people at opposite ends. Why is that so difficult for co-op?

Because co-op has 10-20 times the number of things going in game MAYBE?

[Lima Beans]

ORLY? Well me too and I think maybe you should apply for a job at Bungie since you obviously know how to do this. You can make some good money.


Im happy at my current job thanks. And yeah, ive implemented online co-op before. Obviously Bungie knows how to do it as well, they have smart guys over there, despite it being a very difficult, time consuming task. I never said they didnt know how, or that it is easy.

I stand by my statement that my opinion is that there decision no to do it is lame.

[Pluvious]

What if someone triggers a cut scene ahead of the other?.. Can't you all see the problems with letting 2-4 people into a zone thats almost a MILE big?.. Triggers, cutscenes and checkpoints are going to get messed up. I'm not a programmer but even I can understand the difficulties in keeping all that in sync.

[CptTripps]

Stupid DBL posts.

[Rune_74]

I wonder if they changed the way single player plays out for part 3 with more cut scenes or such, which could effect online multiplayer.

[digitalErich]

What if someone triggers a cut scene ahead of the other?.. Can't you all see the problems with letting 2-4 people into a zone thats almost a MILE big?.. Triggers, cutscenes and checkpoints are going to get messed up. I'm not a programmer but even I can understand the difficulties in keeping all that in sync.
Again, they've solved the cutscenes, triggers, and checkpoints in Halo 1 via warping/tethering. Those things are not the challenge.

[Codicier]

Haha, when put like that you are indeed correct. Wow, 810 per mile, that would drive me crazy, unless they were all hot naked chicks.

Speaking of which, with 1 person per mile, what are the odds you're within walking distance of some good tail up there? :D

[TheFlyingOrc]

Anyone who says this needs their fucking eyes checked. Seriously, you are one blind sonofabitch.
Epic is better at graphics than Bungie. There, I said it.

I still haven't seen anything amazing from Halo3 that beats Gears.

[Venkman]

Again, they've solved the cutscenes, triggers, and checkpoints in Halo 1 via warping/tethering. Those things are not the challenge.

That's true. I say warp the f*ckers into the right place and be done with it.

[CptTripps]

Speaking of which, with 1 person per mile, what are the odds you're within walking distance of some good tail up there? :D

Haha, not good bro. But really 99% of this state is 100% empty. Anchorage has about 270k-300k of those 600k+ people.

[Rune_74]

Epic is better at graphics than Bungie. There, I said it.

I still haven't seen anything amazing from Halo3 that beats Gears.

Isn't all about gameplay?:P

[cp#]

Halo 3 is the new Halo 2.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Isn't all about gameplay?:P
I do feel that way for the most part. I've been to talks by Epic employees, and I think they're pretentious jerks, who live in a angsty teenager's fantasy world.

However, I respect talent where I see it, and they bring teh pretty.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Halo 3 is the new Halo 2.
I...I think that was the point.

[F3nyx]

Stupid DBL posts.You're just THREE EASY STEPS away from not looking like a moron!


STEP ONE -- GOTTA START SOMEWHERE!
http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/4876/editau5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


STEP TWO -- LOOKIN' GOOD!
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2169/deletell4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


STEP THREE -- DON'T GIVE UP NOW!
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/9389/buttonve0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


CONGRATULATIONS, YOU MADE IT!
(you're still a moron)

[CptTripps]

You're just THREE EASY STEPS away from not looking like a moron!


STEP ONE -- GOTTA START SOMEWHERE!
http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/4876/editau5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


STEP TWO -- LOOKIN' GOOD!
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2169/deletell4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


STEP THREE -- DON'T GIVE UP NOW!
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/9389/buttonve0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


CONGRATULATIONS, YOU MADE IT!
(you're still a moron)

You wasted time taking screens, resizing, uploading them and making that post just to be an asshat and I'm the moron? Nice try.

P.S. I never said I didn't know how to delete them, you just assumed. Who am I to care if they pad my post count, they were honest mistakes.

[total]

You wasted time taking screens, resizing, uploading them and making that post just to be an asshat and I'm the moron? Nice try.

P.S. I never said I didn't know how to delete them, you just assumed. Who am I to care if they pad my post count, they were honest mistakes.

Hey, it made me laugh.

[CptTripps]

Hey, it made me laugh.

Good for you, I admit it was kinda funny and if he would have left out the assumptions and name calling it would have been more than trollish, asshole, bullshit.

[F3nyx]

P.S. I never said I didn't know how to delete them, you just assumed. Who am I to care if they pad my post count, they were honest mistakes.Double posting is an honest mistake, sure. Noticing it afterwards, and going to the trouble of editing your post to say "Oops double post" without actually deleting it -- not so much.

[menage]

Well, I hate to say it. But MS has certainly had a bad streak this month.

[CptTripps]

Double posting is an honest mistake, sure. Noticing it afterwards, and going to the trouble of editing your post to say "Oops double post" without actually deleting it -- not so much.

So you have a problem with this then? It bothers you that much?

I admitted to padding my count with them, they "started" as honest mistakes. You are a POS that is trying to get laughs by making someone look stupid for no reason other than to be said POS. In my book that makes you a steaming pile of crap I'd rather not step in.

I would like to thank you for your trollish comments, they have opened my eyes to the nature of your posts. Posts I can live without, posts to be ignored.

[digitalErich]

Less talk about posting mechanics and more complaining about unconfirmed details of Halo 3.

[CptTripps]

Less talk about posting mechanics and more complaining about unconfirmed details of Halo 3.

My bad, I didn't like the personal attacks from out of the blue.

Anyway,

This is not a killer for me whatsoever. I will play split screen with my neighbor for the week I rent it and then never think about this game again.

[ResistanceAddict]

As I've said before:

Halo occupies an interesting place in the world of videogames, in that there is very little it does spectacularly well. Halo's main draw is that there is nothing wrong with it. Really - there is really no single thing bad about Halo. It executes everything VERY WELL, but almost nothing by itself blows you away - Graphics, single player campaign, multiplayer balance all fit.

Therefore, I have seen no evidence that Bungie is made of spectacularly skilled developers and programmers. Solid, to be sure - but I think stuff like this is just further evidence that they do many things good, and few things excellently.

Excellent post. It's amazing how right you are. What's even more amazing is how many people don't realize this.

[digitalErich]

Excellent post. It's amazing how right you are. What's even more amazing is how many people don't realize this.
I think plenty of people realize this, but the truth of it is that very few games do everything well/balanced, especially recently. This is precisely why Halo stands out, it does do everything well, just maybe not exceptionally well.

[Wyrm]

Spend less time making a level editor and multiple costumes for us to wear online, and break out that fucking online co-op. I've been waiting for it since the first one, and I NEED IT.

I refuse to believe it's as hard as they claim to make it work.

[Rotting]

I went through this already with Halo 2. I expected online co-op back then and basically gave in and just played the game anyway, which was really disappointing for me.

If this turns out to be true then I'll just sit this one out :)

[The Continental]

At least now the visuals will have some company in the form of additional dated features. Split screen co-op only, seriously...

[Isamura]

Many of you who don't care about the feature and would rather share half your screen with a friend at the same location, don't seem to understand where people with gripes about this are coming from (probably the longest run-on sentence I'll ever write).

I consider myself a casual 360 gamer. All of my friends who I enjoy gaming with, don't live near me anymore. Halo is all about co-op campaigns for me, and if this feature isn't in there, I see no reason to buy it, as I'll never end up playing it. Online co-op was the biggest selling point for people who have moved out of their parents basements/college dorm rooms. Bungie's shortcoming will likely sever a good marketshare of the 25+ age bracket. After all, I've been spoiled by Gears of War, having my entire TV screen all to myself, being able to play with whomever I want at virtually anytime of day. If I want to play a standard single player shooter, I'll play it on my PC.

[ResistanceAddict]

I think plenty of people realize this, but the truth of it is that very few games do everything well/balanced, especially recently. This is precisely why Halo stands out, it does do everything well, just maybe not exceptionally well.

True. We'll see what happens as far as this co-op goes. I'm never one to buy into rumors quickly, so I'll laugh if they actually do have it and this was all for nothing (but most of all I'll be happy). If it didn't, I'd probably buy Halo 3 for one (rather sad) fact, which would likely be the fact that everyone will be playing Halo 3 online and Halo 2 will be deserted.

[digitalErich]

Oh, I'm not going to say this would be a deal breaker, I'll still buy the game, but I was looking forward to this. The links Mdot posted from NeoGaf have given me some hope that this rumor is at least partially false.

[51|RandoM]

Seems a bit late to be figuring this out. If Bungie was having serious issues here we would've already heard about imho.

[cowutopia]

I was afraid. I told everyone I was afraid. No one believed Bungie could possibly leave it out though.

Well my pessimism was right in the end. And what did I get? Nothing but tears.

[AkumaATR]

I honestly may not buy this now, probably just rent or borrow it from a friend.
Bungie knows your bullshitting.

[the Jack]

"We just figured out a way too have online coop"
cost?
800 pointsA little funny that no one else has really picked up on this.

Now, at the risk of sounding like Jerry Fletcher (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118883/), is it a stretch for developers to try and get away with micro-transacting a core feature?

If I were sitting, nameless and shadowy in a dark room, chomping a cigar with the rest of the executives, and I realized that my product was going to sell a shit-ton regardless of what I did, what would stop me from doing this?

Does anyone think a developer could actually get away with this?

[Psykoboy2]

As best as I can remember, NO ONE has offered multiplayer/co-op as pay-for added content. I don't see it happening with Halo 3.

[Furious Wang]

Bungie fails. I'll be boycotting this game unless it has co-op multiplayer online. Like everyone's said already, there's no excuse for this at all. zero. so it doesn't work if the person's a mile away? then force the players to stick nearbye each other via a warping mechanism or an auto-death bungie ala the last ratchet game. if its co-op then shouldn't the players, you know, be cooperating with each other relatively close to one another anyway?

[Kamalot]

As best as I can remember, NO ONE has offered multiplayer/co-op as pay-for added content. I don't see it happening with Halo 3.
Tekken for the PS3 sold online multiplayer as a patch. I think it was $10.

You look good in red.

[Psykoboy2]

Tekken for the PS3 sold online multiplayer as a patch. I think it was $10.

That's really disgusting.

You look good in red.

Thanks.

[Morratut]

I'm glad it doesn't have co-op in it. If it had co-op in the campaign then the campaign wouldn't be the same.

Halo is about high density big free for all fights.

I don't want the 4 or 5 static enemy encounters from Gears thanks.

I knew it wouldn't happen because it's just not possible to do 'Halo' in a co-op over live scenario.

[Disgustipated]

I'm glad it doesn't have co-op in it. If it had co-op in the campaign then the campaign wouldn't be the same.

Halo is about high density big free for all fights.

I don't want the 4 or 5 static enemy encounters from Gears thanks.

I knew it wouldn't happen because it's just not possible to do 'Halo' in a co-op over live scenario.

False. Entirely false.

[Morratut]

False. Entirely false.


Not at all.

If you play a game like Vegas,GR6 the games have good co-op modes but they are tactical shooters. The populations of the levels are quite low. The games overall aren't that action packed compared Halo's big fights. This is possible right now.

Gears has the best co-op I know of in campaign. Yes I enjoyed the co-op on that game, loved every minute of it. However even then the fights in this are pretty static compared to Halo.

I didn't want Halo 3's campaign to be nerfed just because of online co-op.

In Halo you are tearing around in complicated encounters, often using melee in and amongst enemies with great ai, vehichles all over the place in a big environment.

I could never see a true Halo campaign in co-op over live at the moment.

[Emma Peel]

A little funny that no one else has really picked up on this.

Now, at the risk of sounding like Jerry Fletcher (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118883/), is it a stretch for developers to try and get away with micro-transacting a core feature?

If I were sitting, nameless and shadowy in a dark room, chomping a cigar with the rest of the executives, and I realized that my product was going to sell a shit-ton regardless of what I did, what would stop me from doing this?

Does anyone think a developer could actually get away with this?

I dont really think that a developer would try to get away with this. I agree with an earlier poster who said that them saying it could come later is just to try to make people feel better. Online Coop would be a major feature that would take a huge amount of work to implement. This is most likely the reason they may not implement it for the launch. Besides the large investment post shipping they would have to put in (development, testing, marketing, etc.) there would still all be the same challenges that are not letting them put it in now. Most likely to overcome these challenges they would have to alter the game in a significant way from its "solo" mode (reduce the number of enemies/objects in the levels, add new game mechanics to try and keep the players together).

The only way any of this would be worth it to the people who control the purse strings if it adds a huge amount of additional sales of the game. Thats the original game mind you, not money they would get from the add on. Add ons do not usually sell so well that you would recoup a large investment. The reason you usually come out with additional content is to extend the life of your game and get new people to buy it. Not to make the people who already have it happy. They would rather have some new guys 60 dollars then your 10. Thats why add ons usually take the form of new levels and new content like models and things. These are usually relatively cheap to make and test.

As you said they are already going to sell a shit-ton. Why would they want to do a huge amount of work and expense just for a bit more? Most of the team will be needed to start working on the next game immediatly.

[Morratut]

WEAK!

Like you'll said, Crackdown allows you to be like two cities away. Causing mayhem, and ONLY when somebody is doing some crazy shit like stack cars on the free way to blowing things up do you even see a hiccup.

Yes Crackdown did have a great online co-op world. However it was filled with 2 types of zombies.

Type 1 = they didn't shoot at you.
Type 2 = they did shoot at you.

Yes it did have problems especially if both of you was in close proximity. Often crashing or kicking the player from the world.

Crackdown was a great step forward but the gameplay suffered from it.

No way could they have done a Halo campaign with co-op over live.

If Bungie could've done it without affecting the single player game then yes I would've loved co-op in the campaign.

[the Jack]

<snipples> Why would they want to do a huge amount of work and expense just for a bit more? Most of the team will be needed to start working on the next game immediatly.Truth.

Yet in my dark and troubled visions, co-op has already been completed, and modularized, so that it can be slotted in once those millions of copies are in consumer hands.

I could never see a true Halo campaign in co-op over live at the moment.I guess you missed out on Halo 1? I don't see the difference between split-screen and Live implementation other than the fact that I'd be able to see what I was doing over Live.

[Morratut]

I guess you missed out on Halo 1? I don't see the difference between split-screen and Live implementation other than the fact that I'd be able to see what I was doing over Live.

I didn't miss out on Halo 1 at all.

If you don't see the difference between splitscreen on the same Xbox and over Live co-op then I'm shocked.

It's completely different. The difference is VAST!!!

The VAST difference is SPEED. Speed of getting all that Campaign info from Xbox360#1 to Xbox360#2.

A campaign like Halo hasn't been done yet over Xbox Live.

[silv]

This is very sad. By the way for people mentioning Gears, it keeps you locked into very small spaces with your partner. You really have no option to get very far apart. (Unlike what Bungie is saying)

I'd be happy with the warping personally ala Halo 1.

[Zeal]

i'll say right here and now that i'm done with bungie and halo if these fucking retards can't even get online co-op working.

there is simply zero excuse. period.

[Morratut]

i'll say right here and now that i'm done with bungie and halo if these fucking retards can't even get online co-op working.

there is simply zero excuse. period.

I don't believe you. So you are saying that if they don't put in co-op over xbox live then your not buying Halo 3? Wow I thought you liked the Halo series.

I bet bungie would give you some very good reasons why they couldn't implement co-op in the campaign.

[Zeal]

I bet bungie would give you some very good reasons why they couldn't implement co-op in the campaign.
im about to find out if this is bullshit cause i just shot off an email to someone there. also, there's practically no justifiable reason.

it's either sheer laziness or total incompetence.

[Zeal]

also, adding it at a later date with a patch would only prove how full of shit they all are. it would basically be turned into a money making gimmick.

[Mdot23]

I'm going to laugh on September 25 when everyone who says they aren't playing this is.

[Emma Peel]

Truth.

Yet in my dark and troubled visions, co-op has already been completed, and modularized, so that it can be slotted in once those millions of copies are in consumer hands.



Well that would be the only conceivable way they would release a co-op mode as an add on. If they had already finished it or they were very close to finishing it but did not have quite enough time.

However even if that were the case it would still require an insane amount of testing. Realistically to do this they would have to retest the entire game from the ground up and not just in co-op mode. This would cost a lot, quite a lot. There would also be large potential for them releasing something that would break the game and piss people off.

I am not say that they would never release something like this post ship. I am just arguing that it is unlikely that they would.

[Headcase]

I know, a lot of people don't think there is a plot, but I do and I want to see it through.

That's ok, I think F-Zero has a good plot.

I think I have the logic of the Halo 3 co-op down.

Halo 3 = $60, but most people who want it would pay $80 for it. I know I'd pay $80 for Smash Bros. Brawl. But they can't charge $80 up front. It's not done.

But charge $60 for the game, then $12 for 4-player online co-op, take out a few maps you were going to ship with the game and charge $8 for that. Voila, there's your $80, at or near the shipping date. (Ignoring later, legitimate map packs)

Or, you can subtly convince everyone that the above will be the case, then turn around and provide both packs online for free, and everyone will tout you as heroes for selling a full game out of the box.

Or the whole rumor could be bullshit (glances down).

[Zeal]

i just confirmed this is bullshit. my source is internal.

close thread.

[Kamalot]

i just confirmed this is bullshit. my source is internal.

close thread.
Sorry, gonna need a bit more than that to cease discussion.

[Mdot23]

i just confirmed this is bullshit. my source is internal.

close thread.

I believe you. Not that it's confirmed yet, but I still think that too many people were overreacting in this thread.

Back on the wagon Zeal?

[Zeal]

I believe you. Not that it's confirmed yet, but I still think that too many people were overreacting in this thread.

Back on the wagon Zeal?
it was given to me off the record so i cant elaborate. everything's fine though, so this thread is unnecessary. consider it a heads up.

edit: by the way, don't take this like i am trying to sound like some almighty gaming prophet or whatever. i'm just clarifying something i thought could create a lot of negative buzz.

[ResistanceAddict]

Tekken for the PS3 sold online multiplayer as a patch. I think it was $10.

You look good in red.

I am a PS3 owner, and I know nothing about this. Was this for a limited time? There's certainly nothing like this on PSN.

[Zeal]

Sorry, gonna need a bit more than that to cease discussion.
http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Halo/HALOUP003_COV.jpg
don't make me drop the ban hammer on you, nooblet.

[Kamalot]

I am a PS3 owner, and I know nothing about this. Was this for a limited time? There's certainly nothing like this on PSN.
Well, fellow PS3 owner, read this and weep (http://www.ps3fanboy.com/2007/06/21/tekken-dark-resurrection-online-to-cost-10/).

The upcoming online update to TEKKEN 5: Dark Resurrection will cost $9.99. The update, which will be available later this year, will include Opti Match, Quick Match, Custom Match and Friend Match, "making it easy to find opponents to fight with anywhere, anytime." While waiting for their turn to battle, players will also be able to study their opponents by watching battles in the lobby. Online will also include two new single player modes, including Practice mode and Survival mode.

"It is beyond words how excited we are to finally be bringing our famous fighting franchise, TEKKEN, online for the first time," Makoto Iwai, Senior Vice President and COO of NAMCO BANDAI Games America Inc. said.

Of course they are excited to bring online play to Tekken, I would be too if I got to get rich off of it.

[Mdot23]

it was given to me off the record so i cant elaborate. everything's fine though, so this thread is unnecessary. consider it a heads up.

edit: by the way, don't take this like i am trying to sound like some almighty gaming prophet or whatever. i'm just clarifying something i thought could create a lot of negative buzz.

I appreciate the info.

Still can't wait for the game, co-op or not (but glad it's looking good!)

[ResistanceAddict]

Well, fellow PS3 owner, read this and weep (http://www.ps3fanboy.com/2007/06/21/tekken-dark-resurrection-online-to-cost-10/).



Why would I weep? This is awesome.

[Kamalot]

Why would I weep? This is awesome.
Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were discussing the pay-to-play online aspect of it.

I like the idea of online play, but not the idea of paying for online-enabled patches.

[ResistanceAddict]

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were discussing the pay-to-play online aspect of it.

I like the idea of online play, but not the idea of paying for online-enabled patches.

Well, altogether that makes the price of this game, with online play and all... 30 bucks. That's not bad.