Team Ninja chief concerned by Xbox 360 DVD media capacity

[TomO]

Team Ninja chief Tomonobu Itagaki has expressed concerns over the lack of storage space on the Xbox 360's DVD media. (http://www.pro-g.co.uk/news/nid/1031/)

Speaking to Japanese magazine, Famitsu, Itagaki has expressed concerns over the limited capacity DVD offers in the era of High Definition. He feels developers will struggle to fit High Definition pre-rendered sequences onto the 9GB format, being particularly problematic for Japanese developers who prefer to use pre-rendered over real time cut scenes.

[sTubbs]

I read about that a few days ago. I understand why MS has stayed out of the DVD war at this early [and perhaps premature] stage, but I hope that it does not have a negative effect on the games. It seems a little odd that MS is forcing developers to make high definition games while not providing them with high definition storage. However, I think that this guy needs to reevaluate just how important a 2 gigabyte cinematic is to his game. It certainly seems a little excessive. After all, the biggest PC install to date is what - 2 / 2.5 gigs? I am not exactly a tech head, but why would console games need an extra seven gigs? [Other than big headed developers wanting to make 2 gigabyte cutscenes.]

[bobbler]

While extra space is nice -- I don't think the problem will be as 'problematic' as he says.

Most of the time the cutscenes are in RPG type games where disc swapping works fine (if it does become a space issue).

[Mrbunchypants]

I've been saying this for a while.
The more space the better. for cutsceans , for textures, for sounds, Ect.....

Why compress files when you can have them ready for the GPU.

[Plac1d]

Instead of developing pre-rendered cut scenes, they should focus on the actual game play first.

[Heretic Machine]

I'm with Plac1d on this one. Japanese developers have overused pre-rendered cut-scenes to the point that I basically don't play J-RPG's anymore. These are the guys who are impressed by the Killzone 2 video.

[Tia]

Instead of developing pre-rendered cut scenes, they should focus on the actual game play first.

AMEN!!!!

Too much cut scenes and not enough gameplay keep me away from a lot of japanese titles

[bone4ahead]

However, I think that this guy needs to reevaluate just how important a 2 gigabyte cinematic is to his game. It certainly seems a little excessive. After all, the biggest PC install to date is what - 2 / 2.5 gigs? I am not exactly a tech head, but why would console games need an extra seven gigs? [Other than big headed developers wanting to make 2 gigabyte cutscenes.]

Actually 2.5 gig game would be small. GTA: San Andreas is 4.7 Gigs and Ever Quest 2 is on 10 CD's so It must be 8 or 9 gigs. On the other hand, Battlefield 2 is only about 2.5 gigs. "The biggest PC install to date" is way more than 2.5 gigs trust me. ;)

[EvilBob46]

Instead of developing pre-rendered cut scenes, they should focus on the actual game play first.

I think Japanese games like FF have pretty good gameplay, but the prerendered, often move-like cutscenes contribute a lot to the games. Some games overuse them, but what is an hour of prerendered footage in a 50-hour game anyway?

[51|RandoM]

Pre-rendered storytelling and great gameplay are not mutually exclusive elements.

[Heretic Machine]

often move-like cutscenes contribute a lot to the games.

How do they contribute to the games? Personally, the first time I saw one of these cinematics I was impressed. The second time I saw one I said, "Well, that's neat." The third time I saw one it had become normal. Each time after this it was just a waste of time.

If these movies actually contributed to the games, then The Increadibles (on DVD) would be the best game ever.

[EvilBob46]

How do they contribute to the games? Personally, the first time I saw one of these cinematics I was impressed. The second time I saw one I said, "Well, that's neat." The third time I saw one it had become normal. Each time after this it was just a waste of time.

I don't think I understand exactly what you mean. How can you become bored of prerendered cutscenes in general? FMVs vary in quality and creativeness, just as movies do, and often they don't contribute anything to a game because of their lack of quality, but there will always be some exceptional ones that are of Hollywood quality and showcase a lot of creative content. This is like saying "I saw a movie in the theatre and thought it was really great. Then I saw my 2nd movie, and it was ok. Then I saw some more movies and now I'm not interested in movies anymore."

Some companies like Square have combined prerendered cutscenes with good gameplay and storytelling to produce some of the most successful videogames in history in an attempt to blur the line between movies (and their cinematic approach to stroy telling) and video games. I suggest playing some of theses games (like FF7-10) to see the effect a proper use of FMV can have on a game (although not all modern FF games succeeded in this).

[*Legion*]

I suggest playing some of theses games (like FF7-10) to see the effect a proper use of FMV can have on a game

Actually, those are good examples of exactly what's wrong with FMV in games.

Final Fantasy was at its best before the FMV ever appeared in the picture. Since then, the gameplay has been ignored, but covered up with shiny polished FMV sequences. Hooray! *pppttt*

[EvilBob46]

Actually, those are good examples of exactly what's wrong with FMV in games.

Final Fantasy was at its best before the FMV ever appeared in the picture. Since then, the gameplay has been ignored, but covered up with shiny polished FMV sequences. Hooray! *pppttt*

How has the gameplay "been ignored" in games like FFVII, and how can you say this came as a direct consequence of using FMVs? I thought both FFVII's gameplay and the "flow" of the game were a lot better than those of most previous FF games. Earlier FF games were deeper in their core gameplay mechanics with stuff like the job system, but IMO enormously complex doesn't alwas mean "better."

[Royal Fool]

I find it somewhat strange that developers are still relying on prerendered videos instead of just doing all that crap in-game via real cutscenes. Especially with this next generation of systems, where the graphical capabilities will be very high.

The worst thing is when developers just record a scene that's played out in the engine with the original character models, have them talk and interact with each other, and then just stick that video somewhere in the game so that it takes up tons of extra space, instead of just having the damn cutscene play out normally without having recorded it. Numerous games are guilty of this, and I've always wondered why. Framerate problems? Possibly, but I think there's something else to it.

[Blade]

How about more in-game rendered cut-scenes? Anybody suggest that yet..?

[Heretic Machine]

Also, think about who's talking here. Has anyone taken a look at the graphics in DoA2: U? Why do we need pre-rendered cut-scenes when we have an engine like that?

[Groo]

Also, think about who's talking here. Has anyone taken a look at the graphics in DoA2: U? Why do we need pre-rendered cut-scenes when we have an engine like that?

Seriously, there is no need for pre rendered cut scenes any more. Already, there are times when the pre rendered scenes only look marginally better than the in game ones.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

I don't think cutscenes are the only issue. HD art assets probably take up a good deal more room than standard definition art (particularly if you're working at full 1080i resolution). We've already got games in this generation (like GTA:SA) that fill an entire single-sided single-layer DVD with little to no pre-rendered cutscenes to speak of. I don't think it'll be long before 360 developers exceed the space available on a dual-layer DVD and we start seeing two-disc games (which isn't really a big deal).

[mister_slim]

Considering the vast majority of Nintendo games fit in 1.5 gigs, I think this is more a problem with Japanese developers than the 360 disk capacity.
Seriously, there is no need for pre rendered cut scenes any more. Already, there are times when the pre rendered scenes only look marginally better than the in game ones.
Anything with massive explosions or destruction is going to look better prerendered, for a while. For example, the opening cinematic in FFX. Why bother making an engine that can handle the destruction of a city for a RPG?

[Hellstorm]

I see PS3 development in Itagaki's future.

[sTubbs]

I don't think cutscenes are the only issue. HD art assets probably take up a good deal more room than standard definition art (particularly if you're working at full 1080i resolution). We've already got games in this generation (like GTA:SA) that fill an entire single-sided single-layer DVD with little to no pre-rendered cutscenes to speak of. I don't think it'll be long before 360 developers exceed the space available on a dual-layer DVD and we start seeing two-disc games (which isn't really a big deal).

Good point. I remember reading an interview with Sam Houser [Rockstar bigwig] around Vice City time, and he said that the biggest development problem was trying to fit everything on to one DVD. Obviously they overcame that problem and then some, as San Andreas was many times larger in every way.

As for two disc games, while they are not that big a deal with concerns to linear titles, games like GTA and other open ended games could suffer. For example, imagine having to switch discs every time you changed islands in Vice City. I remember Houser saying at E3 that Rockstar will once again be primarily supporting Sony, and I am sure that the larger Blu Ray capacity was one of the key factors in that decision. I wonder what that means for 360 ports of the new GTA?

[Heretic Machine]

Isn't it still sort of up in the air about whether or not XBOX 360 will launch with HD-DVD? There have been many "leaks" suggesting this. Plus it's sort of what I've expected for over a year now.

[Wonka]

So lets see, what is more limiting? 10 gigs of DVD storage instead of 50, OR no HDD? I pick no HDD. I'm not saying that there will never be a use for tons of space on a disc, just that I believe the HDD has more beneficial applications than a bigger disc capacity for games. I would rather have my cutscenes in mere DVD quality and shorter load times for a real game than to have HD-DVD cut scenes that I have to wait a long time for. How will blue-ray allow me to enjoy the INTERACTIVE part of interactive entertainment more? I an accept that it might have an impact, but I suspect that it will not really be *that* big of a deal. No HDD though could mean very limited downloadable content, or it it could mean a much more limited online service and a host of other missing options. Then again, the fact that I don't really care about HD-DVD might be coloring my perception of this...

[sTubbs]

Isn't it still sort of up in the air about whether or not XBOX 360 will launch with HD-DVD? There have been many "leaks" suggesting this. Plus it's sort of what I've expected for over a year now.

From what I have read, the official Microsoft stance is that they will be originally shipping with DVD but they have not ruled HD-DVD out of their future plans. Whether this means that an HD version of the 360 will be released in a couple years remains to be seen, but it appears to be an outside possibility. However, even if that is the case, I doubt that any games will take advantage of the feature, as developers would not want to limit their potential audience.

[Heretic Machine]

I'm still betting on full HD-DVD support being one of those seventh hour surprises.

[TrackZero]

I read about that a few days ago. I understand why MS has stayed out of the DVD war at this early [and perhaps premature] stage, but I hope that it does not have a negative effect on the games. It seems a little odd that MS is forcing developers to make high definition games while not providing them with high definition storage. However, I think that this guy needs to reevaluate just how important a 2 gigabyte cinematic is to his game. It certainly seems a little excessive. After all, the biggest PC install to date is what - 2 / 2.5 gigs? I am not exactly a tech head, but why would console games need an extra seven gigs? [Other than big headed developers wanting to make 2 gigabyte cutscenes.]

Maybe he's just trying to push MS over the edge on HD DVD, since MS is still considering it.

Personally I'm not a big fan of pre-rendered cutscenes, I prefer scripted sequences using in-game engines.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

Cutscenes are really a non-issue anyway since Japanese developers have been moving towards in-engine cutscenes for awhile now -- Xenosaga 1 and 2, FFX/X-2, the MGS series, and Resident Evil 4 either largely or entirely use in-engine cinematics instead of pre-rendered FMV. If Itagaki wants to use pre-rendered stuff, fine, but he shouldn't pretend that the entire development community shares the same concerns. I certainly don't expect to see much change in the heavy reliance on cutscenes typical of Japanese games.

[Nuggsy]

I see PS3 development in Itagaki's future.

Damn beat me to it!

PS3 may not come with a hard drive, but the fact that it willl support blu-ray is a definite plus. Itagaki-san is a nut though. With all of the criticisms that he throws out there, I'm wondering why he hasn't started designing his own damn consoles yet.

I can see it now:
The Itagaki-san PlayCube 720 - buy one or you are a goddamned loser!

[Eon]

Yes - curse you photo-realistic awesome cutscenes. With your plot revelation and your character exposition! Begone from our games - I hereby create a petition to return to pixelated sprites with three frames of walking animation so that we can concentrate on the REAL gameplay.

[Morratut]

The in game/engine cutscenes for Resident Evil 4 and Ninja Gaiden are good enough for me.

HD cutscenes i'm not bothered about. Especially when you realise how good next gen game engines are going to be :)

I don't see it as a issue.

Don't joke Hellstorm and Nuggsy. I would be gutted if Ninja Gaiden 2 went to PS3. Ninja Gaiden is one of the franchises i love on Xbox. If i have NG2,Halo3 and Resident Evil 5 on Xbox360 i'll be a happy bunny :D

[Babbster]

It's bizarre to me that Itagaki would be the one griping about this. Team Ninja puts out some pretty fantastic-looking in-game graphics. Given that, and the fact that those in-game graphics on the X360 will be in HD (720p minimun), the only reason I can think of him wanting to do prerendered cutscenes is that he wants to continue off-loading that work to other studios. I don't know about Ninja Gaiden - haven't picked it up yet because I'm holding out now for Black - but for previous games Team Ninja has contracted with outside artists for their FMV.

[KNOTE]

We're running into the same problem as he is desribing, but not because of pre-rendered movies. It's because of redundant data. If you want short load times, you have to pack data for each level in one chunk to minimize DVD seek times. That means data shared between levels resides in multiple places on the disk. This is the one area in the hardware we are disappointed with.

[Hellstorm]

Don't joke Hellstorm and Nuggsy. I would be gutted if Ninja Gaiden 2 went to PS3. Ninja Gaiden is one of the franchises i love on Xbox. If i have NG2,Halo3 and Resident Evil 5 on Xbox360 i'll be a happy bunny :D

Who is joking. Ol' crater-face Itagaki AFAIK has said he is doing Revolution games, PS3 games aren't going to be that far behind.

Afterall, how many more excuses can he make up. First he only works on the most powerful system, the PS3 is the most powerful system, no what is his excuse?