Sin 2: Steam and Source

[Varsity]

SiN 2 has today been officially announced by Ritual Entertainment. If that wasn't enough news for one 4th of July, it's not just any old game either:
Ritual's SiN 2 is official. Not only that, but the sequel is boasting strong links with Valve Software. It's being built on a tweaked version of Valve's Source engine and according to word in PC Gamer magazine will be released in a number of episodes over Steam, each episode said to be six hours in length and being flogged at around $20 a pop.
SiN 2, Episode One, is expected this Winter, with subsequent episodes to be released over Steam every three to four months.Read the full article. (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/r/?page=http://www.computerandvideogames.com/news/news_story.php(que)id=121433)

It's here folks: the first episodic, publisherless, AAA title. And far sooner than anyone expected. For those who haven't been keeping up with pre-announcement SiN 2 news (and that's probably all of you), here are some snippets I’ve been able to find:

It's a sequel to SiN, obviously. SiN is fondly remembered as the buggiest game in existence, so you might view it being on Steam as a counterbalance for xStream having DNF.
Ritual are jumping on the advergaming bandwagon with www.legionpharma.com.
Ritual's front website page (http://www.ritual.com/) is currently a countdown. Right now: four days.
Fansite/community hub www.ritualistic.com have been deciphering the LegionPharma website. They’ve found:
- Some futuristic concept art (http://www.ritualistic.com/potd.php/2005/1/potd050627.jpg)
- A music clip (http://www.legionpharma.com/mp3s/dyforsanide.mp3) that apparently came out in 2040 (check the tags)
- Some text that you will have to follow the instructions on the site to read
- And, uh, a bunch of guys from Ritual doing a dance (http://www.legionpharma.com/swf/money02_morons1_high.swf)
Once a decent number of episodes are released, they will probably be bundled together on store shelves for the cheapskates or dial-up slowpokes.
Valve's Doug Lombardi has stated several times that there are other developers (plural) using Steam, so expect more announcements like today's in the near future.

http://www.btinternet.com/~varsity_uk/evilavatar/city_concept_thumb.jpg (http://www.btinternet.com/~varsity_uk/evilavatar/city_concept.jpg)

Late update:It's not a remake and it's not SiN 2. It's Sin Episodes, a series of chapters set in the SiN 2 universe that Ritual spent the past few years crafting. If they called it SiN 2, people would expect the game to be delivered in one big chunk.
Ritual made Condition Zero: Deleted Scenes. If anyone were to make this move first, and make it with Valve, it would be them.

[Orphiuchus]

Woa. Just woa.

[Paranoia]

Oh great, now Sin2 will have insane amount of stutters because of the Source engine!

[Klade]

Guess who isn't paying 60$ for 18 hours of gameplay.

[TrackZero]

Sweet. I've been awaiting a Sin sequel and via this method just gets me excited. I really want episodic content to take off.

[PIPBoy3000]

Yeah - the price point of $20 for 6 hours seems a bit high to me as well. Of course, the smart marketing thing to do is to drop the price down once the second episode comes out, and so on. If you're patient, wait until the end and they'll likely bundle it up into a deal that's reasonably priced.

[Varsity]

Guess who isn't paying 60$ for 18 hours of gameplay.
*points and laughs*

Being serious though, you could probably wait for the CD version and get it all on the cheap.

[Everlost_MI]

Guess who isn't paying 60$ for 18 hours of gameplay.

Add me to that list.

[Klade]

Lets follow it a step further, who will pay 80$ for 24 hours of gameplay? This isn't the console market, people can do math here, and theres lots of games that start selling at 30 or 40$ and offer more.

[Varsity]

It all depends on the quality. I'd rather pay £40 for 24 hours of fun, choreographed gameplay than £30 for 48 hours of repetetive base-building or level grinding.

And we're forgetting multiplayer...

[darkwarrior]

I really don't like the Steam method of delivery. Why pay exactly what you would in the store but not get a cd, case, nice booklet and box?

[MosBen]

Buggiest game in existence? I don't know man, Daggerfall was pretty buggy, as were any of ten games I can think of off the top of my head. The thing I remember most about Sin is that it got completely eclipsed by Haflife, which was released right around then too.

[Taco]

If it's a good game I'll pay $80 for 24 hours of gameplay. Without a doubt. Did people forget to add quality into the equation?

[Varsity]

I really don't like the Steam method of delivery. Why pay exactly what you would in the store but not get a cd, case, nice booklet and box?
What have prices to do with Steam? They are chosen by the developers.

Edit: Something else:

Half-Life 2: 15 hours, day one price: $50 (or was it $60?)
Three Sin 2 episodes: 18 hours, day one price: $60

[Rafer]

I really don't like the Steam method of delivery. Why pay exactly what you would in the store but not get a cd, case, nice booklet and box?

It's more environmentally friendly? Anyway HL2 cost the same over Steam as the retail version because of an agreement with Vivendi, I'm sure normally a company would charge more for a version with a cd, case, booklet and box.

[SaintArnold]

DAMN JT! IT'S LOCKED!

[Wombat]

The thing is, the Fry's in my area is pretty good about discounting. I got Half-Life 2 on day one for only $37.99. If this continues, I see no reason to ever buy through Steam.

[Draft]

Guess who isn't paying 60$ for 18 hours of gameplay.Guess who's paying $60 for 18 hours of Sin?

Yeah, that's right, just Varsity, and maybe that one kind of slow guy in Arkansas.

[Maskatron]

Count me as being interested at least. I liked Sin...but only after a few patches, and having bought it super cheap.

[Draft]

Count me as being interested at least. I liked Sin...but only after a few patches, and having bought it super cheap.
That I think, is a very good point.

Like, lets say that I have $20 bucks to spend on a game. There are two options in front of me: the first episode of SIN, which is supposed to last me 6 hours, have no real resolution, and comes complete with the knowledge I'll have to shell out at least another $20 to see how it ends.

Or, I can buy Soldier of Fortune 2. Sequel to a game I enjoyed, full story included, with fun multiplayer. No contest, really.

About the only thing SIN2 has going for it in this situation is that I can buy it online, instantly.

[Evil Avatar]

I thought SiN was a great game, count me in. I'm not a huge fan of Steam, but I'll go ahead and give it a shot. I want to see more great games made for the Source engine and so I'll support this first Steam/Source 3rd party title.

[dojoteef]

This is exciting but it also comes as a great disappointment to me. I thought Sin was a great game. It had a number of revolutionary concepts in my opinion when I played it. When they brought up the concept of making SiN 2 a couple of years back with some sweet renders of Blade, I was super excited. What annoys me is they went the route of Steam. I do not like the way Steam is set up. If it were another distribution system I would probably be more willing to give it a try.

And I LOVE the idea of episodic releases. I've been thinking about that for years. For most casual gamers they just do not have the time to play a game all the way through these days because they tend to be too long. I was thinking if a developer published 2 - 4 hour episodes that were replayable with different outcomes each month that would be an awesome idea.

I understand why they decided to do the online distribution though. They were having difficulties shopping the idea of SiN 2 to publishers. That's why the idea for the game died a while back. Now with Steam, they feel that they are more willing to take some of the risk of self-funding it because the get a larger share of the profits. I just wish they worked with a different online distribution system, or even designed their own.


Edit: It's nice to see I'm not the only one that has issues with Steam.

Also I just realized another reason they would go with Steam. I just know Valve gave them a discount on the Source engine if they decided to use Steam versus any other online distribution system. It's ingenious on Valve's part... just a piece of their master plan for market domination. Make an engine everyone wants to use and make it more affordable for them to use it if they use Steam for distribution.

So despite the fact that I dislike Steam, I might do like Evil and get the game anyway so I can support Ritual even though it supports Steam as well. Damn what a dilemma

[Varsity]

What annoys me is they went the route of Steam. I do not like the way Steam is set up.Almost everyone who complains does so because they got a copy from stores and didn't like the HL2 *implementation*, not Steam itself. Given that this will be download only, what sort of problems do you have?

Like, lets say that I have $20 bucks to spend on a game. There are two options in front of me: the first episode of SIN, which is supposed to last me 6 hours, have no real resolution, and comes complete with the knowledge I'll have to shell out at least another $20 to see how it ends.
Or, I can buy Soldier of Fortune 2. Sequel to a game I enjoyed, full story included, with fun multiplayer. No contest, really.Same for any modern game vs. any buget title, except that you may have to get several oldies at once for it to add up.

[XxSATANxX]

YEAH RIGHT...

No thanks...HL2 was the shit. I was willing to put up with retarded DRM for the sake of one of thee best games on PC. 8 seconds after finishing HL2 I did the happy dance to rid myself of it and STEAM.

[H.Bogard]

i got hl2 and i installed a no steam hack.........whats the matter with you people? hasnt anyone heard of www.google.com !

[vornskr]

I don't think there would be a problem with this method of distribution if the price wasn't so high.

They should be saving money by not having to produce all these extra items that you'd get from a physical purchase, why is this not transfering over?

[Varsity]

As someone else pointed out, HL2 is still high because of VU. Sin is around the same price with the fact that it's episodic making up for not having to pay a publisher.

[Demize99]

I still say that Steam-like content distrubition is good for gamers, simply because EVEN if we pay the same price, we're giving the original artists our cash, not some corporate jerk who put ads in PC-Gamer.

I honestly wonder what people have against digital distribution? Are you just that afraid of change? I've yet to see a well reasoned, documented and thoughtout argument about why Steam isn't any good. It all seems emotionally opinionated, or based on the lack of manual/CD. When's the last time you got a good manual with a game anyway?

[dojoteef]

Almost everyone who complains does so because they got a copy from stores and didn't like the HL2 *implementation*, not Steam itself. Given that this will be download only, what sort of problems do you have?
Well let's see. The fact that I tried to give Steam a try and it simply did not work. The apartments I was in at the time offered free wireless internet access. The problem is, because of the levels of indirection they had while offering free wireless to an entire apartment complex consisting of over 20 buildings, Steam simply would not allow a connection. You can find out more about that problem here (http://steampowered.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/steampowered.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=11&p_created=1092152203&p_sid=WKlONCJh&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX 3Jvd19jbnQ9MTQzJnBfcHJvZHM9MCZwX2NhdHM9MCZwX3B2PSZ wX2N2PSZwX3NlYXJjaF90eXBlPWFuc3dlcnMuc2VhcmNoX25sJ nBfcGFnZT0xJnBfc2VhcmNoX3RleHQ9Q2FuIGNvbm5lY3Q*&p_li=&p_topview=1).

So that means if I am ever in a similar situation for whatever reason (I've left those apartments over six months ago), my only option for playing anything that requires Steam is to break the law as it currently stands. You know that whole bypassing DRM section in the DMCA. So that's my problem with Steam.

So even though I can now play HL2 if I want to, I simply refuse to until they find a fix for that issue. So I'm one of the few people that hasn't played HL2 for ideological reasons.

[Draft]

Almost everyone who complains does so because they got a copy from stores and didn't like the HL2 *implementation*, not Steam itself. Given that this will be download only, what sort of problems do you have?

Same for any modern game vs. any buget title, except that you may have to get several oldies at once for it to add up.Kind of the same, but not really.

$50 games are premium. I don't know about you, but I don't tend to impulse buy them. If I'm spending that kind of money, the game's already picked out before I get in my car. ie- I'm going to Best Buy and I'm spending $50 to get Battlefield 2.

$20 games are an impulse buy. If I've got some time to kill, I may browse EB games for a bit, and oh look, they have Painkiller Gold and it's $20, sure wrap it up.

So SIN2 episodes and year old games are now in the same boat: impulse buys. I wonder what SIN2 episodes are going to bring to the table that makes their 6 hours of gameplay attractive versus Soldier of Fortune 2's ~20, plus multiplayer.

And yeah, I think this is fairly important, because I consider myself SIN2's target audience. I'm a mature gamer. I buy my own games, when the bills allow me too :( I'm fairly discerning about where my gaming dollar goes. I also bought HL2 through Steam. And I know what SIN is. That probably puts me in a group no bigger than 500,000 people (DID valve ever say how many people bought HL2 online?)

Jury's out on this idea.

[Draft]

As someone else pointed out, HL2 is still high because of VU. Sin is around the same price with the fact that it's episodic making up for not having to pay a publisher.
Are you talking about the price? Don't be naive. Games that sell well stay expensive. It's the reason I can buy Sacrifice for 99 cents but the Starcraft Battlechest still costs $20.

[Varsity]

Are you talking about the price? Don't be naive. Games that sell well stay expensive. It's the reason I can buy Sacrifice for 99 cents but the Starcraft Battlechest still costs $20.
It only takes one dev to set a low price, then the rest must follow. :)

Well let's see. The fact that I tried to give Steam a try and it simply did not work. The apartments I was in at the time offered free wireless internet access. The problem is, because of the levels of indirection they had while offering free wireless to an entire apartment complex consisting of over 20 buildings, Steam simply would not allow a connection. You can find out more about that problem here.Yeah, what I thought. This isn't a problem with Steam, it's a problem with it's use in a SP game.

$50 games are premium. I don't know about you, but I don't tend to impulse buy them. If I'm spending that kind of money, the game's already picked out before I get in my car. ie- I'm going to Best Buy and I'm spending $50 to get Battlefield 2.
$20 games are an impulse buy. If I've got some time to kill, I may browse EB games for a bit, and oh look, they have Painkiller Gold and it's $20, sure wrap it up.
So SIN2 episodes and year old games are now in the same boat: impulse buys. I wonder what SIN2 episodes are going to bring to the table that makes their 6 hours of gameplay attractive versus Soldier of Fortune 2's ~20, plus multiplayer.That's a good point. Looks like you are just going to have to make your mind up first. ;)

[MosBen]

Can It Jt!

[Varsity]

Damn, a security door!

[sebastard]

So much hate.. I like Steam. I like it's auto-updating features, I like that it downloads and manages my content for me. I like that I'm not contributing to our society's massive product packaging waste problems by purchasing a digital download (instead of a shrink-wrapped glossy box containing a plastic-wrapped plastic jewel case with a plastic and foil CD in it), and I'm glad that the developer is getting more of my money for their hard work.

I do believe that publishers still have a role to play when it comes to reaching casual gamers (who need the real-world marketing in order to be aware of the game's existence and to get "sold" on it), but I am a hardcore gamer and I follow game development on my own and through my own sources and I don't feel that the publisher brings anything to the equation when it comes to me wanting a game or even knowing about it (thanks to the Internet and the gaming community).

It sucks that some people have problems with Steam, but it's the same with any other distribution model (you can't please all the people all the time), and only one issue that people have with mass-distribution commercial products (drivers, hardware problems, CPU speed, shitty amateur-hour network connections - free wireless for 20 buildings? you get what you pay for! - that have nothing to do with the game but somehow are still the game's problem, etc)

Steam is a success as a whole, both technologically and financially, otherwise it would be gone by now. The majority of users clearly have no problem with it. Hopefully in time it will be updated to clear up all the issues that people still have with it.

I'm looking forward to Sin 2, and even if I barely remember the first game, I will no doubt buy this if only to support the idea of digital downloads and encourage its wider adoption in the future.

[Klade]

Umm not sure where this high price thing for half-life 2 is coming from.. But if ya look around a bit you can find it for like (http://www.gogamer.com/cgi-bin/GoGamer.storefront/SESSIONID/Product/View/001HL2) 35$ (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00006I02Z/qid=1120508166/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_ur_1/103-2020740-6613428?v=glance&s=videogames&n=507846) .

And I for one have no problem with the idea behind digital distribution. I love collecting boxes and cd's and what not but still if it meant cutting out the producer on big sales like half-life 2 then I'm ok with that. What I do have a problem with is a distribution system of any type that stops me from playing the game when I want, is buggy, slows me down, and in general adds to my frustration factor. Steam is all of the above. And yes I've gotten half-life 2 just from steam as well as from the retail CD and the CD was superior in every way save the original launch day, I had to wait a bit cause of shipping.

[Draft]

Steam is a success as a whole, both technologically and financially, otherwise it would be gone by now.Now, we don't know that. Valve never released Steam sales numbers. And even if the service was costing Valve money, they're rich enough to slog through the red and hopefully tweak the system till it's profitable.

Like I said, the jury's still out. I kind of wish someone would release a full game over STEAM instead of this episodic stuff, so we could have a more apples to apples comparison. And yes, HL2 does not count, because it was a guaranteed megahit when it was a design doc in Gabe Newell's eye. I'm talking about a title that could sell 100,000 copies, or 10,000.

[Varsity]

Now, we don't know that. Valve never released Steam sales numbers. And even if the service was costing Valve money, they're rich enough to slog through the red and hopefully tweak the system till it's profitable.
It was 'wildly more profitable' than retail sales. Do the maths. ;)

There are full, non-Valve games coming out: Pirates of the Burning Sea is one and there's at least another, probably more.

[Draft]

It was 'wildly more profitable' than retail sales. Do the maths. ;)=PR Spin?

I mean, I know you're a big Valve fan, but if they aren't telling how many people bought over Steam, it's probably not very good news. You don't keep it a secret when you completely revolutionize how games are sold, unless it was a paltry 50k of your 1.7 million customers.

[Liquidize105]

I guess I'm one of those lucky ones that has 0 problems with STEAM. I reinstalled HL2 yesterday, took 2+ hours. The game told me to start playing at around 55% but it wouldn't start right till around 80%. Other than that, no problems at all. I love this Dell, I've never had major problems with it.

As for Sin2's Andrew Jackson price point, I'd say it's a bit high for a 6 hour romp too. Bundle the first 2 episodes and make it 30 bucks, then we're definitely in business.

[bKangy]

I think Valve need to advertise their online distribution better to make it sell more copies of HL2. Bundling it on PC Gamer CDs, or including it on those pre-build "EXTREME GAMER" machines I seem to see a lot of now would be a start. Magazine ads, etc. Valve can afford it, I see no reason why not to really.

[mister_slim]

I think the price is a little high, $15 would make it more of an impulse buy. Bundling later episodes together as a deal would be welcome. Personally, I'd rather buy 3-4 cheaper episodes of different games than gamble one game will be perfect.

[Varsity]

=PR Spin?

I mean, I know you're a big Valve fan, but if they aren't telling how many people bought over Steam, it's probably not very good news. You don't keep it a secret when you completely revolutionize how games are sold, unless it was a paltry 50k of your 1.7 million customers.
That is a good point, but there are stilll possible reasons: not least VU who are still their publishers for another two months. But all up it has to be a signifigant number to be more profitable, let alone wildly so.

I think Valve need to advertise their online distribution better to make it sell more copies of HL2. Bundling it on PC Gamer CDs, or including it on those pre-build "EXTREME GAMER" machines I seem to see a lot of now would be a start. Magazine ads, etc. Valve can afford it, I see no reason why not to really.I can. Image. It matters a lot, just look at the beating xStream has taken for its name and involvement with DNF (from SA no less).

[GunnyMo]

I thought SiN was a great game, count me in. I'm not a huge fan of Steam, but I'll go ahead and give it a shot. I want to see more great games made for the Source engine and so I'll support this first Steam/Source 3rd party title.

Summed up very neatly. I agree, SiN was a very fun (bugs aside) game. $20 an episode seems a bit high and I'll bet that price comes down before launch. That or the number of play hours increases for your twenty bucks.

[bryan]

I had some problems with Steam when I first got it, but that was months ago. It's been smooth sailing since then.

And Steam has an offline mode. I play it all the time when my net goes down.

[Varsity]

For what it's worth, I've written up my thoughts (http://varsity_uk.blogspot.com/2005/07/sin-2-episodic-era.html) from a distribution/production perspecitve.

[Alis]

Hmm i like steam, it ment i was playing HL2 within minutes of its release and if you don't want to keep downloading it just burn it to a dvd.

as for SiN the only thing wrong with it was the stupidly long load times, i guess they were asking too much of quake 2? I do remember it having alot of concepts that i hadn't seen before, body sections, enemies comming down ropes while shooting you, stuff you could smash, dual pistols, friendly NPC's. Unfortunatly for it half life came out shortly after it and could do all that and more with very short load times. Maybe this is why number 2 is going the source route.

[Redline]

Yeah, I have broadband. Call me a cheapskate if you will, but I'll wait until it's finished before I start handing over my dolares.

[Varsity]

Heh, nobody has noticed that it was actually Relic who made Impossible Creatures.

[Roc Ingersol]

Hell, half the new games coming out anymore have 8-10 hour stories.
So I don't see how $20 for 6 hours is that far off the mark. If a game hit stores tomorrow and had 12 hours of kickass play and only cost $40, nobody would care about the 12 hour story and they'd fellate the price point.

It all depends on the quality.

[bjornbarspingvinen]

Great idea to split it up in episodes that are cheaper than a full game. More of this.

I think sport games could have similar , more advanced updates if they could charge a small sum each time.

[sebastard]

Like I said, the jury's still out. I kind of wish someone would release a full game over STEAM instead of this episodic stuff, so we could have a more apples to apples comparison. And yes, HL2 does not count, because it was a guaranteed megahit when it was a design doc in Gabe Newell's eye. I'm talking about a title that could sell 100,000 copies, or 10,000.

Well, I think a little common sense deduction would tell us that a game released over Steam that sells 10,000 copies has a much better chance of being profitable, as compared to a title that is published into stores with duplication costs, boxes, overstock, etc..

Via Steam, you sell as many copies as you do, and that's it. You have no overstock, no wasted money on producing things that will sit in warehouses or sale bins forever.

I dunno, it just seems to me that a system like Steam will make money no matter how many copies you sell (as an established distribution medium of course, I'm ignoring start-up costs here because I'm sure they've been recovered by now), since your operational costs are measured against your distribution (the more you sell the more it costs you - bandwidth etc - but then you're making more money from the sales).