[E3 2007] - The Nintendo Event: 10 Things

[bapenguin]

Just like the Microsoft Press conference (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32694)...here are 10 things from Nintendo's Conference you may or may not know.

10. Reggie exudes confidence. And he spouted that with every number and statistic.
9. There were lots of numbers and statistics. Nintendo is growing VERY rapidly.
8. Way too many montages of nothing but chest pumping. Nothing but mainstream clips of people with the Wii and DS.
7. Mario Galaxy looks frickin amazing. They really needed to show more of it.
6. Lots of VC downloads, and don't look for anything to change with it. Only more on the way.
5. Nintendo still doesn't get online. Even with the handful of games announced that support it, they are missing the entire social aspect of what makes online gaming so good.
4. The Balance Board Pad thingy is not what the Wii needs. The Wii is becoming an accessory platform for toys and gadgets.
3. That said, the Balance Board looks like it could be fun for fitness, and priced correctly will be incredibly popular.
2. Reggie heads soccer balls like a champ. Miyamoto...not so much.
1. Nintendo is losing the hardcore audience. While the Nintendo Fans and casual gamers will stick around, there's not much left here for a hardcore gamer.

Conference Score: 5

[Tricky Thumb]

Nice, that's a very spot on list you've got there Baps!

Hrm, is that 5 out 5 or 10? I can't really tell.

[Kagger]

I can't think of recently when Nintendo has been about the 'hardcore' gamer. I am a big single player gamer, and Nintendo does exactly what I want them to do, produce top notch single player adventures. Are they missing online play, yes, but my friends don't all own 360's to play with, and I like more casual group play like smash brothers. In less than a year it seems Nintendo will have a new Metroid, Mario, Smash, and Mario Kart. If that doesn't interest a 'hardcore' gamer what will?

[Itchyeyes]

I strongly agree with #1. Iwata mentioned that fear in the conference and said that after what we'd seen so far we should feel reassured, but I feel exactly the opposite.

[easi]

5. Nintendo still doesn't get online. Even with the handful of games announced that support it, they are missing the entire social aspect of what makes online gaming so good.

Absolute rubbish. I suppose you were one of the people who thought MP3 needed online multi just because it's an FPS.

[Kagger]

Nice, that's a very spot on list you've got there Baps!

Hrm, is that 5 out 5 or 10? I can't really tell.

5/10 I would guess because MS had a 7/10.

[Itchyeyes]

In less than a year it seems Nintendo will have a new Metroid, Mario, Smash, and Mario Kart. If that doesn't interest a 'hardcore' gamer what will?
That wasn't enough with the Gamecube and it won't be enough for the Wii to satisfy any serious gamer as their sole console. Nintendo's first party lineup doesn't cover near enough genres or release games nearly as often as it needs to if that's all they have to satiate the hardcore gamer.

[Hemalin]

1. Nintendo is losing the hardcore audience. While the Nintendo Fans and casual gamers will stick around, there's not much left here for a hardcore gamer.
[/B]
Their lineup seems the same as as it was since the N64. If anything, Nintendo hasn't had the "hardcore" audience since the SNES.

[Itchyeyes]

Absolute rubbish. I suppose you were one of the people who thought MP3 needed online multi just because it's an FPS.
Two words, friend codes. That's all that needs to be said. Nintendo. does. not. get. online.

[Kagger]

That wasn't enough with the Gamecube and it won't be enough for the Wii to satisfy any serious gamer as their sole console. Nintendo's first party lineup doesn't cover near enough genres or release games nearly as often as it needs to if that's all they have to satiate the hardcore gamer.

I never thought it was Nintendo's strategy to be the sole console. Do they want to be the top seller? Yeah, but they don't have to be the only one you own.

[D.D.D.]

1. Nintendo is losing the hardcore audience. While the Nintendo Fans and casual gamers will stick around, there's not much left here for a hardcore gamer.[/B]

One could say that Nintendo gamers are the most hardcore as they usually only own a Nintendo system and play Nintendo-made games. Or is that a fanboy? :rolleyes:

[CapnBob]

I'm kind of surprised that nobody is noticing just how useful that balance board could be in games beyond the fitness stuff. There's an awful lot of motion control that could be mapped to it, leaving your remote and nunchuck free for all sorts of other activities.

[Kagger]

Two words, friend codes. That's all that needs to be said. Nintendo. does. not. get. online.

You know, you are right, but I can attest that parents have a real concern with what their kids are playing. When I was trying to set up my youth minister's network to allow her son to play his DS online, she asked me who he would be able to play with. And I explained the system to her.

Sucks for us. But Mario Kart DS worked well in my book. Join a random game to play, and we had the Mario Kart Mondays to play together. It wasn't a game where you found a good teammate and had no way of playing with him again.

[easi]

Two words, friend codes. That's all that needs to be said. Nintendo. does. not. get. online.

It clearly works well for millions of people.

[LilAbner]

Naturally, he didn't address the fact that there are STILL Wii shortages. Lame.

[easi]

He said it was selling out worldwide.

[handsalad]

Here is what the gist of thought here is:

Hardcore/Serious Gamer = all i play is FPS online with a standard controller/mouse keyboard setup.

Casual Gamer = i play all types of game genres with various control schemes and input devices.

[Itchyeyes]

It clearly works well for millions of people.
No, it clearly works. It does not work well.

[Tricky Thumb]

Here is what the gist of thought here is:

Hardcore/Serious Gamer = all i play is FPS online with a standard controller/mouse keyboard setup.

Casual Gamer = i play all types of game genres with various control schemes and input devices.

Your description of the person who plays all types of games with various control schemes seems more like the hardcore gamer to me actually.

A casual gamer is someone who plays Brain Age every two or so days and enjoys videogames on weekends once in a while or in a social environment like with the Wii.

[Kamalot]

Two words, friend codes. That's all that needs to be said. Nintendo. does. not. get. online.
In Pokemon Battle Revolution, you can meet someone in a random battle online, and then exchange friend codes with them right there on the spot. You never even have to punch in the friend code. It acts as a double-opt-in. You can agree to give your friend code to your opponent. If they choose to do the same thing, friend codes are swapped automatically.

Nintendo DOES get online, but their vision of what online play is isn't the same as the vision of Xbox Live. Their vision involves no setup screens or account management. They want an experience where people feel safe, protected and secure.

They are two DIFFERENT online solutions that allow playing online.

Edit: My mother or nephew wouldn't ever 'get' playing on Live, but both already do feel quite comfortable playing DS online with each other. It serves its purpose for a wider audience than Live. Wider audience, but not as deep for those who want an online community.

[Opty]

The conference announced that a "hardcore" "traditional" game would be released each month for the next 4 months with another one within 3 months after that and people are still like "Yeah Iwata was wrong saying the conference should have soothed our fears, we hardcore feel neglected hurr"?

[jonat3]

I only semi agree with 5 and also semi-agree with 1.

Nintendo probably realizes that they are way behind MS where online is concerned. Only, they tried covering it up by stating some unconvincing BS. The thing with Nintendo is, they always do stuff at the last minute. Because of this, they haven't developed an online plan on time and couldn't implement one in a timely fashion. In fact, my initial impression of Nintendo right now is that they don't even know exactly what they want where online is concerned. They are too prideful just to copy MS. They always want to put some kind of "Nintendo touch" on their actions.

So, it's not that they don't understand online. It's that they don't know yet how to do online Nintendo style which will ensure them more than 80% market penetration. Anyways, no matter how you slice it, they ARE waaaay behind MS.

As for point number 1, i agree that right now, the fearful sheep are under the impression that Nintendo is abandoning them. But those whose common sense isn't paralyzed by fear should realize that Nintendo releasing 4 of their biggest hardcore franchises CLOSE together is unprecedented for Nintendo. Even for MS and Sony first party, this would have been an impressive feat. But since it's Nintendo, it's CLEAR they must be abandoning the hardcore. :rolleyes:

Amazing that ONE non gamer game (which we've known about even before E3) suddenly means Nintendo abandons the hardcore, when FOUR hardcore games from Nintendo are right around the corner.

[handsalad]

In this thread and among alot of "gamers" this is the case that Nintendo does not cater to the hardcore. Nintendo carries the most variety of games/controls than any other console/company in the game industry, it always has. The argument that Nintendo does not cater to the hardcore would lead you to believe that Sony/Microsoft do. So that means a hardcore gamer does not enjoy unusual play mechanics or games that are not so mainstream.

[Telefrog]

In this thread and among alot of "gamers" this is the case that Nintendo does not cater to the hardcore. Nintendo carries the most variety of games/controls than any other console/company in the game industry, it always has. The argument that Nintendo does not cater to the hardcore would lead you to believe that Sony/Microsoft do. So that means a hardcore gamer does not enjoy unusual play mechanics or games that are not so mainstream.

No, the hardcore gamer doesn't need a damn plastic monstrosity to "get" using the Wiimote as a steering wheel or a gun.

[Kamalot]

That wasn't enough with the Gamecube and it won't be enough for the Wii to satisfy any serious gamer as their sole console. Nintendo's first party lineup doesn't cover near enough genres or release games nearly as often as it needs to if that's all they have to satiate the hardcore gamer.
Actually, if you only look at 1st-party lineups, Nintendo's is much more robust than Sony's and Microsoft's for the near future. While there may not be enough 1st-party games for the hardcore gamer that were discussed in the press event, I'd like you to look over the Sony and Microsoft events. How many of those games for hardcore gamers were 1st party games? Ever notice that most of Sony's announcements were in 2008 and beyond?

Both Sony and Microsoft focused very heavily on 3rd-party offerings in their event. Perhaps you need to take 3rd party Wii games into your perspective as well.

[bean19]

Nintendo DOES get online, but their vision of what online play is isn't the same as the vision of Xbox Live. Their vision involves no setup screens or account management. They want an experience where people feel safe, protected and secure.

Here's the problem with that:

1. Most of their games don't get online at all.

2. Most of their games do not let you automatically exchange friend codes.

3. It isn't just a matter of different approaches; they simply don't have the features that I want - voice chat (across different games even), friends showing up gives me a pop-up in any game, allow me to see what friends are playing, and leader boards that focus on rivalries I care about and that are fun (limited to just my friends). This isn't about safety. None of those features are scary are hard to access.

I get the idea that they don't have voice because maybe they don't want their kids talking to strangers, but you can put Parental Controls on the 360 that remove the ability to play games that are rated too high, movies that are rated too high, or to play online without a parental over-ride. That's a lot of child safety and it only takes a few minutes on easy-to-understand (instruction book free) menus to set up.

What Nintendo has going for it is that Mom isn't scared of using a Wii-mote and the party games and kid's games that dominate the console are suitable to a new or casual gamer in challenge. If my Mom tried to play Halo with me, she would get murdered over and over and over, but she beat me the first time we played Wii bowling together because I'm not patient enough to finesse the game to get great at it (and neither is she, but she got lucky).

The online space is a weak spot for the Wii. All consoles have weak spots, and my current favorite this generation is working to patch it's holes. I just wish that Sony and Nintendo were doing the same as I know I'll own all 3 consoles like I do every generation. Nintendo needs to increase the depth and breadth of their game titles instead of focusing so intently on the kid and casual markets and they need to enhance their online functionality. Maybe they are doing great, but that doesn't mean that there is no need to improve.

[Venkman]

I still assert that while they are introducing new people to the market, their tastes will matire as ours did.

When they crave plot and other mature things, their few titles that go beyond the butt-stomping, party gaming, candy colored mascots will not be enought to hold them to the system.

They may win this generation, maybe for a while, but they'll disappear from the home console market soon enough and stick to hand helds.

[Yellowman]

If E3 really is becoming an industry show, and Nintendo were there simply to sell there console, they did it damn well. The WiiFit thing has the potential to be huge, if you can't see it or you hate the idea of it then nothing will change your mind.

You will say that I am simply drinking the Nintendo kool aid but these peripherals, where you really interact with the console, are my hope for the future of gaming and maybe they aren't arriving in the package I anticipated, but they will clearly be used for these things in the future, even if not by Nintendo. The board has loads of practical applications in gaming as well as for fitness and if the game really does help people get fitter then for fucks sake it can't be a bad thing. One thing is for sure, if this thing is popular it will definately spread in some form or another to the other console makers. I can't wait to see the next generation offerings from all three!

[Gil]

I don't plan on buying a Wii anytime soon because I like to play more then 4 traditional games a year. I also like good third party games.

[Vyzov]

Shut up with the hardcore gamer crap. It's a bunch of bullshit. hardcore has lost all meaning. Nintendo isn't going to lose the "Hardcore" gamer. they are going to lose the "Mainstream" gamer. They aren't the same thing. yes, Nintendo is going to attract a different audience. But the mainstream gamers, your "average" gamer. Is going to stay away. Not your hardcore.

Your harcore gamer is going to be the one playing everything. They are going to go form their Wii, to their Ps3, to their Atari 2600. They will play all genres, they will play games of all ratings. They are about the gaming. They play for the story, they play for the design, they play for the experience. They aren't just there for the fun. The hardcore gamer is even going to play things that aren't fun. Why? So they can say that they did. They are going to play the worst the industry has to offer, the best the industry has to offer and EVERYTHING in between. That is what they are about.

One last time. Hardcore gamers are there for the experience. NOT the fun. Fun is secondary.

[Venkman]

One last time. Hardcore gamers are there for the experience. NOT the fun. Fun is secondary.

All the "hard core" gamers I know are bored with their Wii and play their other systmes/PC. Clearly, fun plays a larger factor than you give it credit for.

We are talking about games, aren't we?

[Harlan Hoyt]

I "get" playing online through Live. I just fucking hate it. I've been made fun of by enough teenagers trying out their newly aquired swearwords that when I play a DS game online and I either play only with people I like, or only with people I can't talk to, it's like mana from heaven.

I never have, and I never will, understand gamers whose be-all, end-all of gaming is online and HD. I cannot describe, and measurements have not yet been invented to describe how little I care about these things. I'm as hardcorps a gamer as any but the most commited five percent out ther. And I think my tastes reflect more of the realtiy of the videogame market than that of the boards here, or anywhere else on the internet.

Nintendo has figured it out. They have figured it out. Next year, they are going to release a game that comes with a step aerobics board. It will tell you how to do it; it will allow you to play games; it will weigh you; it will track you progress; it will suggest work out plans for you. You think tae bo was big? Nintendo is going to destroy the traditional games market. Sony and Microsoft dreamed fo creating a living room beachhead with their consoles, so they could sell their proprietary products. Nintendo did it, but selling games.

If you doubt that Wii Fit is a game, you're an idiot. Itchyeyes, you're like six different kinds of idiot all rolled into one. Your opinion doesn't matter. Nintnedo is still going to release the same kinds of games they have before. If you're upset because you can't trash talk somebody in Wii Mario Kart, frankly I feel sorry for you. Grow the fuck up. Welcome to a world where you can play things with everyone.

Have you thought about that? Have you considered that Nintendo is making a fairly dramatic play? Nintendo doesn't want to take over Microsoft, or Sony, or the traditional market. Enjoy your Gears of War; you'll always have them. But when your mom and your sister get up and put in forty five minutes of Wii Fit in the morning, and you're able to throw in Mario Party 9 in the evening after dinner, that's a different world. Nintendo wants to be the next television. And damn if they don't seem like they've got a solid chance.

[ECM]

Shut up with the hardcore gamer crap. It's a bunch of bullshit. hardcore has lost all meaning. Nintendo isn't going to lose the "Hardcore" gamer. they are going to lose the "Mainstream" gamer. They aren't the same thing. yes, Nintendo is going to attract a different audience. But the mainstream gamers, your "average" gamer. Is going to stay away. Not your hardcore.

Your harcore gamer is going to be the one playing everything. They are going to go form their Wii, to their Ps3, to their Atari 2600. They will play all genres, they will play games of all ratings. They are about the gaming. They play for the story, they play for the design, they play for the experience. They aren't just there for the fun. The hardcore gamer is even going to play things that aren't fun. Why? So they can say that they did. They are going to play the worst the industry has to offer, the best the industry has to offer and EVERYTHING in between. That is what they are about.

One last time. Hardcore gamers are there for the experience. NOT the fun. Fun is secondary.

This guy actually gets it (though I'd debate the final paragraph as I'm about as "hardcore" as they get and I most certainly play for fun first.)

[Kamalot]

This guy actually gets it (though I'd debate the final paragraph as I'm about as "hardcore" as they get and I most certainly play for fun first.)
I agree that it is a good post, except for the final generalization. I play for fun, first and foremost.

[Chainblast]

Sadly I cannot contest any of those points. Though Super Mario Galaxy is the game to have this fall, bar-none.

[Venkman]

Nintnedo is still going to release the same kinds of games they have before.

That's my problem to a T. If I want to play the same old games, I'll pull out my old N64 and SNES.

[Sl1pstream]

The conference announced that a "hardcore" "traditional" game would be released each month for the next 4 months with another one within 3 months after that and people are still like "Yeah Iwata was wrong saying the conference should have soothed our fears, we hardcore feel neglected hurr"?

Just because they're traditional games doesn't mean that they're quality games. What if it's 2 months of shit games? One title a month is not a lot, even if it's a quality game.

It's clear that Nintendo isn't going for traditional gamers. Right now, they still have quite a few traditional games in development, but what about a year from now? They're going through their current franchises fast and unless they're bringing sequel after sequel, they'll have to come up with a new ip soon. Last thing I can remember them doing was Geist and that didn't turn out all that great.

[Kamalot]

That's my problem to a T. If I want to play the same old games, I'll pull out my old N64 and SNES.
He says the same KINDS of games, not the same games.

But you must be right. I can see how Metroid Prime, Pikmin, and Battallion Wars look just like their SNES counterparts.

[t3kl3r]

When they crave plot and other mature things, their few titles that go beyond the butt-stomping, party gaming, candy colored mascots will not be enought to hold them to the system.

I think that a lot of developers have only started working on Wii titles since the Wii proved it's popularity. Once these games near the development cycle, we're going to see a lot more 3rd party stuff.

And if the Wii market's taste "matures" as you believe it may (and I don't necessarily disagree with you), then there should be plenty of companies to capitalize on this by filling that demand.

I believe this demand is more likely going to be for mature themes rather than going back to more complex and less intuitive control schemes though.

[Swiper]

A conference score of 5 out of 10 seems too low. I can’t speak for retailers or anyone in the industry (since I’m neither a retailer nor in the industry), so I’m not the target audience for these press conferences, but as an avid consumer of video games, the Nintendo press conference had some cool announcements--and I say this as someone who hasn’t bought a wii yet. The peripherals especially seemed pretty cool. The wii certainly seems to be the platform of choice for unique add-ons.

I do wonder, though, how many games will take advantage of the various peripherals. If the wii Fit game is the only game that takes advantage of the platform peripheral, I’ll be disappointed.

In fact, if the business model becomes “sell the game cheap, make money on the peripheral” or “justify a higher price by packing in a peripheral” (ala Guitar Hero), I and my aching wallet will be *sorely* disappointed.

[Hemalin]

One last time. Hardcore gamers are there for the experience. NOT the fun. Fun is secondary.
I knew there was a reason I hate hardcore gamers. Bastards are ruining the industry. :rolleyes:

[grammatoncleric]

Mario Galaxy, Metroid, Smash Bros., WiiFit, and Mario Kart soon to come actually might be enough to interest me as much as the 360's fall lineup. I did not expect that, so I would have to say Nintendo had the better show for me. At the same time, that's incredibly impressive because I was already anticipating the Wii to blow the competition away and WiiFit is just a genius idea. WiiFit, and more importantly the Wii itself, really don't have a ceiling that I foresee this fall aside from the amount of consoles Nintendo can ship. And in Japan with no MGS on PS3? Scary numbers might be thrown up. Nintendo could potentially take a stranglehold on this generation. I'd view that as a "good show."

[jonat3]

Just because they're traditional games doesn't mean that they're quality games. What if it's 2 months of shit games? One title a month is not a lot, even if it's a quality game.

It's clear that Nintendo isn't going for traditional gamers. Right now, they still have quite a few traditional games in development, but what about a year from now? They're going through their current franchises fast and unless they're bringing sequel after sequel, they'll have to come up with a new ip soon. Last thing I can remember them doing was Geist and that didn't turn out all that great.

Dude, the titles he's talking about are 4 of nintendo's BIGGEST franchises. System sellers, every one of them. Metroid, mario galaxy, smash brothers and mario kart. Hardly crap.

Most people complain that there is too much time apart from these system sellers from Nintendo. Now they are complaining, Nintendo is going through them too fast. Make up your minds.

[KSmitty]

When they crave plot and other mature things, their few titles that go beyond the butt-stomping, party gaming, candy colored mascots will not be enought to hold them to the system.
I will NEVER understand this mindset. So you playing with a realistic imaginary man on an expensive TOY, is more mature than you playing with a brightly colored imaginary man on an expensive TOY?

Glad to see release dates for the big name titles. The Wiifit thing doesn't really appeal to me, but let me know when they realease a skating/surfing/rollerblading/snowboarding game for it and we can talk. ;)

[Venkman]

He says the same KINDS of games, not the same games.


OK.


But you must be right. I can see how Metroid Prime, Pikmin, and Battallion Wars look just like their SNES counterparts.

They look just like their Gamecube counterparts, but didn't you just say in another thread that graphics don't matter? ;)

And if the Wii market's taste "matures" as you believe it may (and I don't necessarily disagree with you), then there should be plenty of companies to capitalize on this by filling that demand.

I could be wrong about that. It's just a guess on my part, because Nintendo outright said in previous meetings that they are essentially going after the baby-boomer market- not the hardcore, not the casual, but even more casual gamers than those. Business people. CEOs. Even retirees and empty-nesters.

it's a huge untapped market (and other industries are starting to shift to that focus, also), but will they buy games like the hardcore gamers do? Will they Nintendo be happy with a demographic that buys 1 or 2 games a year? How will 3rd parties deal with that, when Nintendo's game far and away outsell other publishers?

What will Nintendo do to make people want to buy 10-12 gmaes a year?

[Sl1pstream]

Dude, the titles he's talking about are 4 of nintendo's BIGGEST franchises. System sellers, every one of them. Metroid, mario galaxy, smash brothers and mario kart. Hardly crap.

So that's a few months before they run out of established franchises, what then? Also, while mario galaxy and metroid might be great games, they're not going to keep me busy for an entire month, they need more games than just one if there's no multiplayer to keep me playing the game.

[Venkman]

I will NEVER understand this mindset. So you playing with a realistic imaginary man on an expensive TOY, is more mature than you playing with a brightly colored imaginary man on an expensive TOY?



Haha, no, that's not what I mean. ;) I don't mean to imply that playing games on one system is more mature than another.

I mean if you look at the subject matter of the games on other systems, like Bioshock, Assassins creed, etc. The games on other systems reflect a mature subject matter and themes- and part of the way to convey that meaning is through the style and imagery.

You could take one script for a movie and execute it with the best people in the biz as an animated film and as live action movie, and you could elicit two totally different responses from the movie going public based entirely on the visual presentation.

Imagine Children of Men in animated form. It could still kick absolute ass. but would it be the same movie?

How about the Bourne Identity as a cartoon?

Or Ratatouille as live action?

[DaXIthR]

So that's a few months before they run out of established franchises, what then? Also, while mario galaxy and metroid might be great games, they're not going to keep me busy for an entire month, they need more games than just one if there's no multiplayer to keep me playing the game.

This is beyond asinine.

As jonat3 eloquently said, you can't make the Nintendo critic happy. They either sit on franchises for too long without touching them (Earthbound, Kid Icarus, Metroid, Super Mario, StarFox, etc.) or they produce too many of them too frequently.

The fact that Nintendo is getting all its heavy hitters out in the first couple years in the console's life has me excited for next year's E3 already. You know Nintendo is going to put up some new IPs: they have to.

[Rex Dart]

If we were at approximately the same point in the DS lifespan, I think this would be where people would be saying "Nintendogs? WTFLOL, Nintendo's lost it."

I still feel it's a bit too early to judge the Wii's library of games. If they can channel even a third of DS developer ingenuity, I'm confident the Wii will be rich with quirky gems. It won't be until a Phoenix Wright or a Hotel Dusk comes along that the Wii's potential will be realized.

[jonat3]

So that's a few months before they run out of established franchises, what then? Also, while mario galaxy and metroid might be great games, they're not going to keep me busy for an entire month, they need more games than just one if there's no multiplayer to keep me playing the game.

WTF, you buy 2 or more games a month? If you have an xbox360 or a ps3, how many games do you presently own for them right now?

Anyways, realize Nintendo mostly focused on their first party titles. From a first party standpoint, what they did was impressive. Hardly "abandoning" the hardcore. Were Sony and MS to do the same, it would be praiseworthy. Of course, you could argue that Nintendo also needs 3rd party titles for a good game library, but that depends on the 3rd party devs. If those 3rd party titles aren't coming, then Nintendo couldn't be blamed for abandoning the hardcore, it's the third parties that abandoned Nintendo.

But based on first party support, they AREN'T abandoning the hardcore. THAT'S my main point. Wether there will be a game drought afterwards (which i don't think will be THAT bad) is besides the point. They put in unprecedented effort to produce 4 of their biggest franchises not far apart from each other. That spells commitment to hardcore titles to me.

[Kamalot]

If we were at approximately the same point in the DS lifespan, I think this would be where people would be saying "Nintendogs? WTFLOL, Nintendo's lost it."

I still feel it's a bit too early to judge the Wii's library of games. If they can channel even a third of DS developer ingenuity, I'm confident the Wii will be rich with quirky gems. It won't be until a Phoenix Wright or a Hotel Dusk comes along that the Wii's potential will be realized.
Very insightful post.

People thought Nintendo was batshit crazy the E3 after the DS launched. People pointed and laughed at Nintendogs. Then, millions of DS systems started flying off of shelves, and developers flocked to the system. Now the DS is one of the best gaming platforms of all times, with a great variety of hardcore and accessible titles.

I can foresee the exact same thing happening with Wii. But some people are a little short sighted if the titles they see aren't easily understandable by their petty little minds, or if they aren't filled with shades of Next Gen Brown (http://www.joystiq.com/2006/10/23/the-color-of-next-gen-gaming-is-brown/).

[Draconis]

Shut up with the hardcore gamer crap. It's a bunch of bullshit. hardcore has lost all meaning. Nintendo isn't going to lose the "Hardcore" gamer. they are going to lose the "Mainstream" gamer. They aren't the same thing. yes, Nintendo is going to attract a different audience. But the mainstream gamers, your "average" gamer. Is going to stay away. Not your hardcore.

Your harcore gamer is going to be the one playing everything. They are going to go form their Wii, to their Ps3, to their Atari 2600. They will play all genres, they will play games of all ratings. They are about the gaming. They play for the story, they play for the design, they play for the experience. They aren't just there for the fun. The hardcore gamer is even going to play things that aren't fun. Why? So they can say that they did. They are going to play the worst the industry has to offer, the best the industry has to offer and EVERYTHING in between. That is what they are about.

One last time. Hardcore gamers are there for the experience. NOT the fun. Fun is secondary.


This man wins the award of the day. He gets it right. Also consider the fact that this is NINTENDO'S Press Conference, of course they are going to answer the most pertinent questions regarding their games and drive home the point to their NEW market segment that they are supporting them as well. What exactly did you expect? For them to dictate every other 3rd parties video game conferences for them? Of course they are going to concentrate on their games, their console. It IS a NINTENDO Conference after all, who also happens to be *gasp* A video game Developer!!! Whoda Thunk It!?!?!

Microsoft has a few internal studios, but they are not MS themselves, Sony is sort of the same, but they speak of their own games. Out of all the console makers, Nintendo has the most reknowned, best built, and highest respected development houses. So tell me, why in the HELL should they NOT talk about their own games and take up NINTENDO conference time with everyone elses games but theirs? They had questions to answer right? Seems like they answered them...and brought more information.

Sorry folks, but a 5 out of 10 when MS got a 7 shows favoritism in my view. Yes, I said it. So what? Deal.

The whole opinion of alot of EA at times DOES come off as favoritist. Especially with a tilt towards MS. Among many this is felt to be common knoweldge. Will some disagree? Yes, I know they will.

Whilst Nintendo did do alot of chest thumping, I do think it's deserved, considering before E3 2006 how many were predicting their doom and downfall. A bit excessive? Yes, but still...they've earned the damned right.

Strange how when MS chest thumps...no one questions it amongst the 'regulars'. Odd.


Nintendo has not forgotten the hardcore gamer. And to define, the Hardcore gamer IS the individual who owns all of the consoles and plays them all.

There IS a difference. That's why they call them fanboys. (Realizes he will get labelled as a Nintendo fanboy, could care less, as that is far from the truth. )

I just happen to be a True Hardcore Gamer, lacking fanboy dreamed rose tinted glasses.

I love both my Wii and my PS3 a helluva lot more then my 360. Hell, I like my original NES and Genesis more then my 360. So Nyah!


THHHHHHHRRRRRRRRRRRPPPPPPPPPPPPBBBBBBBBBTTTTTTTTTT !!!

My personal Opinion? B+ for the conference or an 8 out of 10.

(This random post of insanity has been brought to you by...oh screw it...)

[Sl1pstream]

WTF, you buy 2 or more games a month? If you have an xbox360 or a ps3, how many games do you presently own for them right now?

Uh, yes. I assume I'm not the only one either.

As jonat3 eloquently said, you can't make the Nintendo critic happy. They either sit on franchises for too long without touching them (Earthbound, Kid Icarus, Metroid, Super Mario, StarFox, etc.) or they produce too many of them too frequently.

I was perfectly happy with the way they did it before. I'm just scared that we'll see multiple mario karts or multiple mario tennis games on the same platform. New ip would be nice but I really don't see them coming up with new full length games. Minigame collections seem to sell pretty well, from a business standpoint it makes more sense to develop those. Nintendo seems to love numbers this generation so I'm guessing they're going for those first.

[Kamalot]

I'm just scared that we'll see multiple mario karts or multiple mario tennis games on the same platform.
Does Nintendo usually make multiple versions of the same game for a single console? Other than Mario Party, which they milk with regularity, I can't think of a Nintendo system that had more than one version of Mario Kart on it, or Mario Tennis. And each version of Kart or tennis seems unique enough to warrant its own game.

Now compare that to the number of Ratchet and Clank games / Jack and Daxter games we've seen on only one platform. Hell, we saw 3 Prince of Persia games in a single console generation. Nintendo seems to be fairly good about not reproducing the same game every year or two, ESPECIALLY when compared to other companies.

How many Splinter Cell games have there been?

Edit: I have to put Metroid Prime 2 on the "Milking" list. It also suffered from that, IMHO.

[grammatoncleric]

Uh, yes. I assume I'm not the only one either.

No, you aren't the only one to buy multiple games a month, but you're just in a fairly small minority of all console owners. Quick math, that's $120 a month, or $1440 (edited oops math error ;) a year if you bought JUST two games a month. Not even factoring downloaded content, peripheral based games, the cost of a service like live, or any other extra controllers, headsets, etc. That's a lot of money.

That's the equivalent of buying 60+ DVD's a year. That's a lot of money invested in a hobby, and most people don't even approach half that. So complaining about one game a month is completely fine for you, but that would be the equivalent of complaining that there wasn't at least one good DVD that came out per week. It's a hardcore stance that doesn't seem that bad, but it is. I don't mean bad that it's bad that you like games, just bad for the old wallet. I'm not saying that you're wrong in wanting lots of good games, I'm just trying to put it in context that can let you understand why so many people are digging the Wii.

Also, as far as running out of content goes, I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of Nintendo franchises revitalized. Earthbound, Ice Climbers, Mario Paint, etc. Plus there's all the stuff that hasn't been touched in Star Fox, Donkey Kong, Animal Crossing, Mario Tennis/Golf, Pikmin, Waverace, etc. So I don't think that's a major concern.

[Sl1pstream]

Does Nintendo usually make multiple versions of the same game for a single console? Other than Mario Party, which they milk with regularity, I can't think of a Nintendo system that had more than one version of Mario Kart on it, or Mario Tennis. And each version of Kart or tennis seems unique enough to warrant its own game.

Which was my point, sort of. They never released all of their big franchises so soon either. What happens if they run out of franchises that didn't have a Wii version and they can't think of something new? They'll either make Mario Kart Wii 2 or just switch to things like Brain Age 666: Not the number of the beast.

[Kamalot]

Which was my point, sort of. They never released all of their big franchises so soon either. What happens if they run out of franchises that didn't have a Wii version and they can't think of something new? They'll either make Mario Kart Wii 2 or just switch to things like Brain Age 666: Not the number of the beast.
I can think of a LONG list of franchises we haven't seen in a while. Nintendo has such a tremendously huge catalog of old games to remake, I wouldn't be worried.

Lets start with Kid Icarus and Earthbound.

[jonat3]

Uh, yes. I assume I'm not the only one either.



I was perfectly happy with the way they did it before. I'm just scared that we'll see multiple mario karts or multiple mario tennis games on the same platform. New ip would be nice but I really don't see them coming up with new full length games. Minigame collections seem to sell pretty well, from a business standpoint it makes more sense to develop those. Nintendo seems to love numbers this generation so I'm guessing they're going for those first.

I wouldn't be too scared if i were you. The advantage of these type of non gamer games, is that they take relatively little manpower and time to create compared to the big games. Even if the teams were to solely focus on these types of games for awhile (which i deem pretty unlikely), they would soon have their hands free to create the hardcore type games.

Anyways, from a strategic standpoint, what Nintendo is doing is GOOD. Their current strategy is to do everything in their power to increase the installbase in the first year. That is why the wii browser was free for the first 6 months. That is why they are releasing their biggest guns all in the first year. All to significantly increase the installbase in the first year. Why take this route? Because the most important part of a console's success is based on MOMENTUM. The launch period of a console determines it's image. If this image is favourable, it will result that the 3rd party devs will eventually flock to the console. For 3rd party devs, installbase is everything. The console with the largest installbase and best image will receive their support.

That Nintendo may risk ending up in a game drought because they blew their load in one shot may be possible, but the benefits are IMO infinitely better from following this path. Because, the complaint that Nintendo was spacing their titles too much, was a justified complaint IMO. It resulted in a lack of titles and a bad image. Which resulted in bad 3rd party support. By ensuring the first year, they have largely controlled how the rest of the 5 year cycle plays out. Momentum builds upon momentum, which builds upon even more momentum. That's how it went for the PS, the PS2 and the DS.

Kamalot and Rex Dart brought up good points regarding that. The DS focused on non gamer titles as well, but it resulted that they ended up with the largest amount of hardcore titles. That's because they had the superior installbase. Which resulted in the highest amount of 3rd party devs and from that eventually came the highest amount of hardcore titles. Don't think that just because Nintendo may focus a little more on non gamer games, that we won't see any benefits from it. That's far from the truth.

[Kamalot]

Don't think that just because Nintendo may focus a little more on non gamer games, that we won't see any benefits from it. That's far from the truth.
Great post!

We will indeed reap the benefits of a big install base. The reason PS2 has these quirky titles and odd 2D games like Odin's Sphere is because it has a MASSIVE install base. It allows developers to target a small segment of that install base and turn a profit.

The bigger the install base, the more games for everyone; new gamers and traditional gamers alike.

[lockwoodx]

1. Nintendo is losing the hardcore audience. While the Nintendo Fans and casual gamers will stick around, there's not much left here for a hardcore gamer.

Conference Score: 5


Hardcore gamers never liked nintendo in the first place. They only bought a Wii because they thought a female might enter their house once a year and want something fun to do.

[PopoWRX]

Great post!

We will indeed reap the benefits of a big install base. The reason PS2 has these quirky titles and odd 2D games like Odin's Sphere is because it has a MASSIVE install base. It allows developers to target a small segment of that install base and turn a profit.

The bigger the install base, the more games for everyone; new gamers and traditional gamers alike.

I am in agreeance with your opinion. The bigger the install base the better possibility of getting quirky games, "hardcore" games, and hopefully, strategy rpg titles!

Fire Emblem, where are you?! HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME NINTENDO?!!

I woulda hoped E3 would have had some Fire Emblem stuff, I didn't know localization could take so long.

[Kamalot]

I am in agreeance with your opinion. The bigger the install base the better possibility of getting quirky games, "hardcore" games, and hopefully, strategy rpg titles!

Fire Emblem, where are you?! HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME NINTENDO?!!

I woulda hoped E3 would have had some Fire Emblem stuff, I didn't know localization could take so long.
Fire Emblem for Wii was dated. It is coming before the end of the year.

More to Come: Other Nintendo titles launching this year for Wii include Mario Strikers(TM) Charged (July 30), Donkey Kong(R) Barrel Blast (Oct. 8), Battalion Wars(TM) 2 (Oct. 29), Endless Ocean(TM) (Oct. 29) and Fire Emblem(TM) (Nov. 5).

Having platform momentum to gain a large install base is great for gamers, but reading through EvAv today leads me to believe that most 'gamers' can't see past the end of their own nose.

[Bydo_Empire]

I hate this "hardcore"/"casual" label crap. Every single one of the dozens of Wii owners I know (99% of which love the system) are hardcore gamers. If you consider yourself a hardcore gamer, there will be games you want to play on EVERY system. And therefore, you will want to own EVERY system. Period. Now, if you're into racing sims or RPGs, the Wii is clearly not going to be *enough* for you. But that's a separate issue (and the variety of content is something I had hoped Nintendo would have addressed). I think that's more the point than whether or not the Wii is for "hardcore" gamers. And that's why I don't disagree with BA's assessment of their presentation. I'd give Nintendo a C- this time around.

[Venkman]

Having platform momentum to gain a large install base is great for gamers, but reading through EvAv today leads me to believe that most 'gamers' can't see past the end of their own nose.

Who makes up that install base matters immensely. If they continue to target the baby boomers, the subject matter of their games will change dramatically to follow the income stream.

I worked for a company for 6 years that specializes in the same market Nintendo is going after. And I gotta tell you, it got really boring very quickly.

I hope Nintendo can keep it interesting for the rest of us who weren't alive when Woodstock happened.

[jonat3]

Who makes up that install base matters immensely. If they continue to target the baby boomers, the subject matter of their games will change dramatically to follow the income stream.

I worked for a company for 6 years that specializes in the same market Nintendo is going after. And I gotta tell you, it got really boring very quickly.

I hope Nintendo can keep it interesting for the rest of us who weren't alive when Woodstock happened.

I'm a gamer that enjoys hardcore and non gamer games alike. I believe there are many gamers like me out there that like multiple types of games. The type of gamer that only likes hardcore games and only buys those titles are in the minority. What i'm trying to say, is that while Nintendo increases sales with non gamer games, at the same time, their installbase in people who like and play hardcore gamers will grow as well.
Also, people tend to be sheep. They like going for what is popular. This is true for every type of gamer, which includes the hardcore gamer as well. If Nintendo increases their installbase with non gamers, the casual and hardcore gamers are more likely to jump on the bandwagon based on the buzz the wii is receiving.
The DS's success was kickstarted with a non gamer game (Nintendogs), yet it ended up with the most hardcore titles. Even though the DS's installbase has the highest percentage of non gamers from any console, they still ended up with the most hardcore titles. I believe because of the above reasons i stated.

[DaXIthR]

Also, people tend to be sheep. They like going for what is popular. This is true for every type of gamer, which includes the hardcore gamer as well. If Nintendo increases their installbase with non gamers, the casual and hardcore gamers are more likely to jump on the bandwagon based on the buzz the wii is receiving.

The DS's success was kickstarted with a non gamer game (Nintendogs), yet it ended up with the most hardcore titles. Even though the DS's installbase has the highest percentage of non gamers from any console, they still ended up with the most hardcore titles. I believe because of the above reasons i stated.

Negro, you are smart.

I definitely agree with what you're saying. Before someone else says it - yes, virtually all gamers flock to what's popular. Yes, there are detractors and vocal opponents for every series and genre, but that does not invalidate the point.

Hitting nails on the head in that second paragraph. Nintendo's move to push all its own heavy hitters to establish the biggest installed base it can give third parties is brilliant. Nintendo's convincing EA - the world's largest publisher - and UbiSoft - the world best huge publisher - to mimic its own creations. Boogie? Raving Rabbids? MySims?

[civil_dead]

5/10 I would guess because MS had a 7/10.
Or perhaps MS had a 7 out of 5!

[RestlessAvenger]

One last time. Hardcore gamers are there for the Gamerscore. NOT the fun. Fun is secondary.

Fixed that for you.

[MajSheppard]

Man you are so full of shit.

Everyone is still against Nintendo.

BTW I am hardcore. I have over 400 games and been a gamer my whole life, and Wii is the only next gen system I have and I am more then fine with that.

[Apex]

Of next-gen consoles, I have a 360 and only have 4 games for it: Gears of War, Dead Rising, Rainbow 6 Vegas, Saints Row (bored waiting for GTA4). None of which are the ones I wanted but had an itch to get a 360 for Gears of War. The games I really want aren't out until the end of the year: GTA4, Mass effect & Assassin's Creed.

I have money aside to buy a Wii, but still feel like im waiting for something before I get one. Prolly that im waiting to get a bigger telly. I find it ironic of all the HD era hype that the only console that will make me buy a big HD capable telly is ... the Wii. Not the 360, not the PS3. Playing on the Wii on a small telly just seems wrong.

PS3 isn't even on my radar.

[Venkman]

Check out this clip from Nintendo's press conference. Notice the first 30 seconds or so?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J39uY1CFbw&e

Forget hardcore vs casual. Are any forum members on here a member of AARP?

[Venkman]

More here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/30/technology/30aarp.html?ex=1319864400&en=9a7b47430bdc39dd&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

And here:
http://www.gamedaily.com/canvases/articles/_a/nintendo-touches-generations/20060908174909990001

[Itchyeyes]

Actually, if you only look at 1st-party lineups, Nintendo's is much more robust than Sony's and Microsoft's for the near future. While there may not be enough 1st-party games for the hardcore gamer that were discussed in the press event, I'd like you to look over the Sony and Microsoft events. How many of those games for hardcore gamers were 1st party games? Ever notice that most of Sony's announcements were in 2008 and beyond?

Both Sony and Microsoft focused very heavily on 3rd-party offerings in their event. Perhaps you need to take 3rd party Wii games into your perspective as well.
Sony and Microsoft focus on 3rd party games because they actually have good third party games. Nintendo has a truck load of third party games, but not a single one of them is any good. There are a few that are passably entertaining, but can you honestly say that the Wii has a single 3rd party game that measures up to the quality of something like Gears of War, or Oblivion, or Metal Gear Solid 4, or Grand Theft Auto? And no, Resident Evil Wii does not count. Nintendo hasn't been able to garner quality third party support since the SNES days, and nothing has changed yet with the Wii.

Perhaps that support will come in the future as the Wii's base grows, but it isn't there now, and there's nothing on the foreseeable horizon either.

It's not just the size of the library or the quality of the games either. Nintendo puts out a decent amount of first party titles, almost all of which are of excellent quality. However, those titles are remarkably limited in the scope of their genres and general atmosphere. There are no RPG's, no FPS's, no strategy games, no simulation racing games, no action games, etc... Microsoft and Sony don't cover all genres with their first party offerings either, but they don't need to because third parties will step up to the plate. Microsoft doesn't need to make an RPG game because Bethesda and Bioware will do it for them. Sony doesn't need to make a stealth action game because Konami and Ubisoft will do it for them.

Sure, those third parties will port things over to the Wii so that they can check off the boxes that they have all the genres covered. But there's nothing of substance there. No one is buying a Wii to play the 5th port of Resident Evil. No one is buying a Wii to play the watered down version of Call of Duty. People will buy a PS3 to play Metal Gear Solid, and they'll buy a 360 to play Gears of War. That's the difference.

[TheFlyingOrc]

That wasn't enough with the Gamecube and it won't be enough for the Wii to satisfy any serious gamer as their sole console. Nintendo's first party lineup doesn't cover near enough genres or release games nearly as often as it needs to if that's all they have to satiate the hardcore gamer.
Those weren't all out on the gamecube until about 3 years into the system's life. If they continue to pump them out at the rate they are this fall, there's nothing to worry about.

Nintendo covers pretty much every genre - they just do it "their way" - ie, Metroid Prime not traditional FPS, Smash Bros. not traditional fighter, etc.

[Venkman]

http://www.duncans.tv/images/wii-would-like-to-play.jpg

Wii would like to sell you accessories.

[Gorvi]

Those weren't all out on the gamecube until about 3 years into the system's life. If they continue to pump them out at the rate they are this fall, there's nothing to worry about.

Nintendo covers pretty much every genre - they just do it "their way" - ie, Metroid Prime not traditional FPS, Smash Bros. not traditional fighter, etc.
That's assuming that they actually start releasing games quicker. When was the last time you saw 2 true Mario games come out in one generation of hardware?

[Itchyeyes]

Nintendo covers pretty much every genre - they just do it "their way" - ie, Metroid Prime not traditional FPS, Smash Bros. not traditional fighter, etc.
Nintendo does not even remotely cover every genre. Where's the flight sim? MMO? Simulation racer? TBS? Stealth Action? Third Person Shooter? Western RPG? Space Sim? Sandbox? FPS (and no, MP is not an FPS, it's a first person adventure. There is a difference)? The list of genres Nintendo doesn't cover is practically endless. And like you said, the ones that they do cover, they only cover their way and not everyone wants to do it their way. It doesn't matter if people don't want to do things Microsoft's or Sony's way because they have quality third party support, but that's not something Nintendo has to fall back on.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Nintendo does not even remotely cover every genre. Where's the flight sim? MMO? Simulation racer? TBS? Stealth Action? Third Person Shooter? Western RPG? Space Sim? Sandbox? FPS (and no, MP is not an FPS, it's a first person adventure. There is a difference)? The list of genres Nintendo doesn't cover is practically endless. And like you said, the ones that they do cover, they only cover their way and not everyone wants to do it their way. It doesn't matter if people don't want to do things Microsoft's or Sony's way because they have quality third party support, but that's not something Nintendo has to fall back on.
Again you spin it as if this is somehow a problem for Nintendo. I think they cover every MAJOR genre, at least to an extent. (Seriously, how many stealth games come out a year?) - and it will get better, starting next year, because publishers like money.

[Itchyeyes]

Again you spin it as if this is somehow a problem for Nintendo. I think they cover every MAJOR genre, at least to an extent. (Seriously, how many stealth games come out a year?) - and it will get better, starting next year, because publishers like money.
I never said it was a problem for Nintendo. They're doing a bang up job courting casual gamers right now. What I said is that Nintendo doesn't have a library that will satisfy hard core gamers. Yes, there are a few who fit the Nintendo demographic. As a whole though, Nintendo doesn't have enough diversity in their library.

[jonat3]

That only one true mario game comes out in a generation is a good thing IMO. Prevents us from getting yearly updates, like Madden.

No, when they finish a standard franchise, they should put more manpower into reinvigorating the old franchises, like kid icarus.

Anyways, Nintendo has nearly released all their big guns in the first year. Can't remember Nintendo ever being able to do that before. From a strategic standpoint, i already outlined why this is good. There's no doubt they will reap the rewards, since i see no sign of a slowdown where sales are concerned.

I can't really argue that the 360 has better 3rd party right now, but heck, they have been out for a year. But remember, the console with the largest installbase will win the console wars in the end. Cause that console is also likely to have the largest amount of 3rd party devs (which will mean the largest hardcore titles as well). And the wii is on track to accomplish that.

[TheFlyingOrc]

I never said it was a problem for Nintendo. They're doing a bang up job courting casual gamers right now. What I said is that Nintendo doesn't have a library that will satisfy hard core gamers. Yes, there are a few who fit the Nintendo demographic. As a whole though, Nintendo doesn't have enough diversity in their library. And whether or not it will bet better is yet to be seen.
I disagree. I think there's plenty of diversity, simply not in the exact areas you are requesting.

[Venkman]

But remember, the console with the largest installbase will win the console wars in the end. Cause that console is also likely to have the largest amount of 3rd party devs (which will mean the largest hardcore titles as well). And the wii is on track to accomplish that.

That's only if the Wii buyers in all these demographics continue to buy games at a pace more than 1-2 a year.

Their current target market has not behaved like that in the past. We'll see.

[TheFlyingOrc]

That's only if the Wii buyers in all these demographics continue to buy games at a pace more than 1-2 a year.

Their current target market has not behaved like that in the past. We'll see.

They've shifted the demographic, but its hardly like none of the old guard of gaming is buying the thing. I'd wager if no casuals were buying the system, it would be selling nearly as well as the 360.

[jonat3]

I guess we'll see indeed. I'm pretty confident it will play out as how it went with the DS. Largest perecentage of non gamers, yet still the greatest amount of hardcore titles.

[Itchyeyes]

I disagree. I think there's plenty of diversity, simply not in the exact areas you are requesting.
Not in the exact areas I'm requesting? It's not like I'm getting down to the nitty gritty here. I named a whole hell of a lot of genres. RPG's are a pretty big genre. How do you consider Paper Mario, a single game, enough diversity? FPS's are a pretty big genre, Nintendo doesn't have a single one. How is that a diverse lineup? Racing titles are a big genre. Nintendo makes a single cart racer. Where is the diversity there? Again, if third parties were stepping up with quality titles to fill in the gaps it wouldn't be an issue, but they're not.

Nintendo makes some pretty great games, but gamers have a whole assortment of tastes for what they like in their games. Many people do like the exact kinds of games Nintendo makes, but there's a whole hell of a lot of people who like something else. Nintendo offers very little for those people. You may personally be content with the kinds of games Nintendo makes, but the fact remains that there are tens of millions of people who aren't.

[Kamalot]

I never said it was a problem for Nintendo. They're doing a bang up job courting casual gamers right now. What I said is that Nintendo doesn't have a library that will satisfy hard core gamers.
Nintendo has more titles, and better titles, than the PS2 had in its first 8 months.

They are selling unbelievable numbers of consoles with no signs of slowing. This creates an install base where the great games can be profitable, and niche titles can carve out a profit as well.

Nintendo does not have to flood the market with their own games, or make a game for every genre. They need to create enough quality and diversity to move titles, and their big-name games ARE system-movers. 3rd parties fill in the other genres that aren't served directly by Nintendo.

And to anyone who says, "Nintendo does not have any good 3rd party support" I say, "Things Change" At one point, Nintendo lost their 3rd party support because of their corporate attitude combined with a more competitive marketplace. Guess what is happening to Sony's 3rd-party support. They are losing it due to their corporate attitude and a more competitive marketplace.

[Venkman]

Nintendo has more titles, and better titles, than the PS2 had in its first 8 months.

Which ones? I already have Zelda TP on the cube. What's left after that besides paper mario 2?

[Itchyeyes]

Nintendo has more titles, and better titles, than the PS2 had in its first 8 months.

They are selling unbelievable numbers of consoles with no signs of slowing. This creates an install base where the great games can be profitable, and niche titles can carve out a profit as well.

Nintendo does not have to flood the market with their own games, or make a game for every genre. They need to create enough quality and diversity to move titles, and their big-name games ARE system-movers. 3rd parties fill in the other genres that aren't served directly by Nintendo.

And to anyone who says, "Nintendo does not have any good 3rd party support" I say, "Things Change" At one point, Nintendo lost their 3rd party support because of their corporate attitude combined with a more competitive marketplace. Guess what is happening to Sony's 3rd-party support. They are losing it due to their corporate attitude and a more competitive marketplace.
Perhaps 3rd parties will step up. Perhaps third parties will provide quality games in the genres that Nintendo does not. But they haven't yet, and what's more they're not going to in the near future either. Practically every 3rd party game that will be released on the Wii between now and the end of the year is either a port or based on a film or TV license (usually a children's film or TV license at that), and the very few that aren't, such as My Sims, aren't exactly diversifying the Wii's library into demographics that Nintendo doesn't cover. Things do change, but I think you can forgive me if I maintain my skepticism until there are signs that they're actually changing instead of pinning my hopes on nothing but wishful thinking.

[Gorvi]

Nintendo has more titles, and better titles, than the PS2 had in its first 8 months.
Really? I'll take SSX, Midnight Club, Shadow of Destiny, Timesplitters, and Smuggler's Run over Super Paper Mario and........ Cooking Mama?

[Kamalot]

Which ones? I already have Zelda TP on the cube. What's left after that besides paper mario 2?
I've played and enjoyed the following on my Wii:

Trauma Center: Second Opinion
SSX Blur
Resident Evil 4
Excite Truck
Prince of Persia: Rival Swords
Super Paper Mario
Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix
Wario Ware: Smooth Moves
Rayman Raving Rabbids
Scarface
Pokemon Battle Revolution
Red Steel
Godfather

oh, and Wii Sports.

In it's first 8-months to a year, PS2 didn't have much of anything going for it. Already Wii has had more titles than were available on the PS2 in the same amount of time, that cover a wide range of genres.

[Venkman]

Nintendo did almost get Manhunt 2, with virtual stab/slash/strangle controls. I guess the "snuff" category would have been covered then.

I also think it is safe to say that Nintendo wouldn't cover that genre.

[Venkman]

Trauma Center: Second Opinion
Excite Truck
Super Paper Mario
Wario Ware: Smooth Moves
Pokemon Battle Revolution
Red Steel
Wii Sports.


That's your list with things only available on Wii (I'm not sure about SSX, is that version on other systems?)

[Kamalot]

That's your list with things only available on Wii (I'm not sure about SSX, is that version on other systems?)
SSX Blur is NOT available on other systems. This was just a list of games I've played and enjoyed off the top of my head.

If you want a list of exclusives, please include:

Sonic and the Secret Rings
Monkey Ball
Cooking Mama
Elebits
Wing Island
Pro GT


Exclusivity means nothing if someone hasn't played the port before, or if they want to try it with motion controls. In the cases of Godfather and Resident Evil, the ports are vastly improved with the implementation of Wii controls.

I'll also have you know that a number of PS2's early games were also on other systems, including the Dreamcast and PS1.

[jonat3]

Perhaps 3rd parties will step up. Perhaps third parties will provide quality games in the genres that Nintendo does not. But they haven't yet, and what's more they're not going to in the near future either. Practically every 3rd party game that will be released on the Wii between now and the end of the year is either a port or based on a film or TV license (usually a children's film or TV license at that), and the very few that aren't, such as My Sims, aren't exactly diversifying the Wii's library into demographics that Nintendo doesn't cover. Things do change, but I think you can forgive me if I maintain my skepticism until there are signs that they're actually changing instead of pinning my hopes on nothing but wishful thinking.

I'm a skeptic myself, which is when i try to determine something, i try to be as realistic possible. Right now, in my most unbiased opinion (atleast, i hope so), if the wii continues in getting the largest installbase, they will eventually get the largest amount of hardcore titles as well. This is not wishful thinking, but an objective analysis based on what i've seen of the performance of previous consoles.

[Venkman]

SSX Blur is NOT available on other systems.

Exclusivity means nothing if someone hasn't played the port before, or if they want to try it with motion controls. In the cases of Godfather and Resident Evil, the ports are vastly improved with the implementation of Wii controls.

I'll also have you know that a number of PS2's early games were also on other systems, including the Dreamcast and PS1.

True, true, but we can both admit that Red Steel sucks monster balls. ;)

[Itchyeyes]

I'm a skeptic myself, which is when i try to determine something, i try to be as realistic possible. Right now, in my most unbiased opinion (atleast, i hope so), if the wii continues in getting the largest installbase, they will eventually get the largest amount of hardcore titles as well. This is not wishful thinking, but an objective analysis based on what i've seen of the performance of previous consoles.
That's a fair assessment. I'm fairly certain it's possible, but I'm not going to change my opinion of the Wii's library based on games that haven't so much as even been announced yet. When 3rd parties do start showing games that look interesting, I'll be more than happy to change my tune. But, as I said before, until then I'll remain cautiously skeptical.

[KSmitty]

That's a fair assessment. I'm fairly certain it's possible, but I'm not going to change my opinion of the Wii's library based on games that haven't so much as even been announced yet. When 3rd parties do start showing games that look interesting, I'll be more than happy to change my tune. But, as I said before, until then I'll remain cautiously skeptical.
There was a monster list of games announced for the Wii a couple months ago, I don't remember the name of the News Post otherwise I'd link it for you. Maybe Kam can pull it up, I think he sbmitted it.

[Kamalot]

There was a monster list of games announced for the Wii a couple months ago, I don't remember the name of the News Post otherwise I'd link it for you. Maybe Kam can pull it up, I think he sbmitted it.
I don't know exactly where the list is, but I do know that developers are hopping on board Wii more and more every day. There are reports all over the place where companies are pledging Wii support.

With Wii's phenomenal success in the marketplace, developers, publishers, and investors would be downright foolish to ignore such a rapidly-growing install-base. ESPECIALLY one that shows no sign of slowing.

[Gorvi]

So, just out of curiousity, what Wii games have been announced so far by third parties at E3? That's part sarcasm, part actually being serious as a future Wii owner.

[Itchyeyes]

I don't know exactly where the list is, but I do know that developers are hopping on board Wii more and more every day. There are reports all over the place where companies are pledging Wii support.

With Wii's phenomenal success in the marketplace, developers, publishers, and investors would be downright foolish to ignore such a rapidly-growing install-base. ESPECIALLY one that shows no sign of slowing.
I'm sure they are, and I'm sure the games will follow. But what I'm saying, what I've basically been saying this whole time, is that there has yet to be a single game so much as even announced that shows me the Wii is diversifying as a platform.

You guys keep telling me how the games will come, and how great it's going to be in the future. But there's nothing there now, or even in the next 6 months. I've been burned too many times the the hype machine this industry runs on. I find it hard enough to get excited about games from established franchises that I already like. You want me to get excited about games that haven't even been announced, for a completely new kind of platform that's, so far, been moving away from the genres I like to play? Like I've already said before, forgive me if I'm skeptical. You can trumpet the greatness of the Wii all you want, but I'll get excited about the games when they actually exist, and not a second before.

[Kamalot]

But what I'm saying, what I've basically been saying this whole time, is that there has yet to be a single game so much as even announced that shows me the Wii is diversifying as a platform.
I'm sorry. If games like Brain Age, and Wii Sports encouraging toddlers to compete with retirees, does nothing to convince you that the Wii is a diverse platform, then I don't know what WILL convince you.

So in your first paragraph, you ask for a diversifying platform, and then you say you only want games you like? Pardon me if I'm a bit confused.

Edit: I'm not trying to sell you a Wii based on a future promise of games. I'm simply trying to state that the system with the largest install base gets the lions share of games. it has ALWAYS been that way.

[TheFlyingOrc]

I'm sorry. If games like Brain Age, and Wii Sports encouraging toddlers to compete with retirees, does nothing to convince you that the Wii is a diverse platform, then I don't know what WILL convince you.
Diverse in the way he WANTS it to be. He wants it to have the 360's library of "every game has guns", too. :) (sidenote: I love my 360)

[Venkman]

I'm sorry. If games like Brain Age, and Wii Sports encouraging toddlers to compete with retirees, does nothing to convince you that the Wii is a diverse platform, then I don't know what WILL convince you.

So in your first paragraph, you ask for a diversifying platform, and then you say you only want games you like? Pardon me if I'm a bit confused.

Edit: I'm not trying to sell you a Wii based on a future promise of games. I'm simply trying to state that the system with the largest install base gets the lions share of games. it has ALWAYS been that way.

I would say that Nintendo IS diversifying, away from the gentleman you were quoteing and away from gamers like me. It's hard to have been a Nintendo owner in the past and see this happening, and wondering if they will cover our demographic once again if their build up reached critical mass.

Your toddlers and retirees quote does sum it up rather succinctly, while Microsoft and Nintendo are fighting over what is in between.

I'm not a retiree or a toddler. But my boss has a Wii, my Mom wants one, my older brother (35) wants one, while my little brother (21) and little sister (15) do not.

[bean19]

I'm sorry. If games like Brain Age, and Wii Sports encouraging toddlers to compete with retirees, does nothing to convince you that the Wii is a diverse platform, then I don't know what WILL convince you.

That's the thing though. . . it has tons of party games and kids games, but it has very few racing, RPG, and FPS games. Microsoft is doing it's best to expand the breadth and depth of their game library, but we just keep seeing more of the same from Nintendo.

The Wii has Manhunt 2 (if it comes out), Resident Evil 4 (port), and a Resident Evil game on rails. These are all pretty cool and help me want to buy a Wii again, but they aren't really that much.

I like party games, but I can play them at a friend's house. I like Nintendo's first-party software that, while "kiddy" are also so damn good that they have universal appeal, and that helps too. However, I don't want to be in the situation I was in with my Gamecube. . . 3-5 good games/year and the rest of the time it collects dust.

On the other hand, Microsoft seems to realize that they need MORE kids games and party games so we are seeing Naruto: Rise of a Ninja, Viva Pinata: Party Animals, Banjo-Kazooie 3, Blue Dragon, Scene It!, Rock Band, Guitar Hero III, Eternal Sonata, and that Crash Bandicoot game coming out this Fall. This is in addition to already having a small number of party games and kid-friendly games like Kameo and Viva Pinata (plus all the multi-platform movie-tie-in crap that every console gets) and a ton of puzzle and casual games on XBLA.

What I think everyone is saying is that Nintendo is doing great, but they aren't taking any steps to expand their customer base. Sure, hardcore gamers won't win the console race alone for the 360, but the Wii won't win it by only going after casual gamers either. They'll be profitable, and they could do well, but I can see a future where there is not that big of a difference between 360s sold and Wiis sold but the 360 is making more money due to much larger console sales.

Besides, casual gamers can't mature into "hardcore" games if there aren't any hardcore games to play.

[TheFlyingOrc]

That's the thing though. . . it has tons of party games and kids games, but it has very few racing, RPG, and FPS games. Microsoft is doing it's best to expand the breadth and depth of their game library, but we just keep seeing more of the same from Nintendo.

The Wii has Manhunt 2 (if it comes out), Resident Evil 4 (port), and a Resident Evil game on rails. These are all pretty cool and help me want to buy a Wii again, but they aren't really that much.

I like party games, but I can play them at a friend's house. I like Nintendo's first-party software that, while "kiddy" is universal, and that helps too. However, I don't want to be in the situation I was in with my Gamecube. . . 3-5 good games/year and the rest of the time it collects dust.

On the other hand, Microsoft seems to realize that they need MORE kids games and party games so we are seeing Naruto: Rise of a Ninja, Viva Pinata: Party Animals, Banjo-Kazooie 3, Blue Dragon, Scene It!, Rock Band, Guitar Hero III, Eternal Sonata, and that Crash Bandicoot game coming out this Fall. This is in addition to already having a small number of party games and kid-friendly games like Kameo and Viva Pinata (plus all the multi-platform movie-tie-in crap that every console gets).

What I think everyone is saying is that Nintendo is doing great, but they aren't taking any steps to expand their customer base. Sure, hardcore gamers won't win the console race alone for the 360, but the Wii won't win it by only going after casual gamers either. They'll be profitable, and they could do well, but I can see a future where there is not that big of a difference between 360s sold and Wiis sold but the 360 is making more money due to much larger console sales.

Besides, casual gamers can't mature into "hardcore" games if there aren't any hardcore games to play.
Why does everyone assume casuals do not buy games? Those "casual" games on DS keep rockin' the charts every week - whats to say the same won't happen here?

Secondly - Microsoft is absolutely failing to diversify. They are trying, but when every game at the rack has an athlete, gun, or car on the cover, they aren't doing that well.

[bean19]

Why does everyone assume casuals do not buy games? Those "casual" games on DS keep rockin' the charts every week - whats to say the same won't happen here?

Secondly - Microsoft is absolutely failing to diversify. They are trying, but when every game at the rack has an athlete, gun, or car on the cover, they aren't doing that well.

1. That's a good point. Maybe they'll sale a ton to casual gamers. Lego Star Wars sold well on every system. Handheld games sell well to "casual" gamers because they are games for kids to keep them quiet on road trips and they are low enough in price to be great mid-price presents. This could be true of Wii games too. However, the NPD charts have shown that the best-sellers are "hardcore" and sports titles usually.

2. They haven't been doing a good job, but I listed about ten exclusive games that are coming out this year. That's more than trying. While they won't overcome Nintendo's number of kid-friendly and casual games, they'll definitely have the genre covered as well as most other genres. It won't be an area where they are lacking; it will simply be an area in which the 360 is competitive but the Wii excels (like the Wii is with puzzle games now. . . they don't have more than the 360 that is currently leading there, but they have enough that the genre is covered well).

[Venkman]

Why does everyone assume casuals do not buy games? Those "casual" games on DS keep rockin' the charts every week - whats to say the same won't happen here?

The "gray gamer", that's what. We'll see if the retirees purchase those games as often as other gaming demographics. Typically, the boomer market (those who have more than just social security for their retirement income) focus on larger ticket items, like vactions, cars, high end electronics, and even higher education. If nintendo manages to hit this demographic like they claim they are trying to, we'll see pretty quickly if it turns out to be profitable.

Nintendo has partnered with AARP, and even organized Wii events in retirement homes.

Is that a large purchasing base? Leading edge boomers in retirement homes? Most people who live in retirement homes are on a specific, fixed income that is funneled towards living and health care expenses.

[Venkman]

Sorry double post.

[TheFlyingOrc]

The "gray gamer", that's what. We'll see if the retirees purchase those games as often as other gaming demographics. Typically, the boomer market focuses on larger ticket items, like vactions, cars, high end electronics. If nintendo manages to hit this demographic like they claim they are trying to, we'll see pretty quickly if it turns out to be profitable.

Nintendo has partnered with AARP, and even organized Wii events in retirement homes.

Is that a large purchasing base? Retirement homes? Most people who live in retirement homes are on a specific, fixed income that is funneled towads living and health care expenses.
That's a good point - the most expensive advertising spots on TV are for professional golf - as only people with LOTS of money and free time are watching it. Brain Training appeals to these folks, too.

[Gorvi]

Nintendo may be selling well, but sales numbers aren't what keep me happy as a gamer. That's games, and the Wii is lacking them now, and for the rest of the year from what I can see. The Wii's lineup just doesn't compare to what the PS3 and 360 have coming this fall. I'm not making the mistake of buying a Nintendo console solely for Nintendo's games again. Until I see more on there that appeals to me as a gamer (from other publishers), I'm playing wait and see. If they want to appeal to that casual market (like they seem so keen on doing), that's fine by me, and their sales will look great, but sorry, Brain Training 6 : Now With Algebra! doesn't excite me.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Nintendo may be selling well, but sales numbers aren't what keep me happy as a gamer. That's games, and the Wii is lacking them now, and for the rest of the year from what I can see. The Wii's lineup just doesn't compare to what the PS3 and 360 have coming this fall. I'm not making the mistake of buying a Nintendo console solely for Nintendo's games again. Until I see more on there that appeals to me as a gamer (from other publishers), I'm playing wait and see. If they want to appeal to that casual market (like they seem so keen on doing), that's fine by me, and their sales will look great, but sorry, Brain Training 6 : Now With Algebra! doesn't excite me.
That's what Mario, Smash, and Metroid are for! (its not my fault you have bad taste in games)

[Gorvi]

That's what Mario, Smash, and Metroid are for! (its not my fault you have bad taste in games)
But that was my point, that's it. Where's that 3rd party support everyone's been going on so much about? Here it is the week of E3, it's halfway over, and we've had no significant games announced by third parties. None. I think the closest thing has been another Trauma Center.

As far as Nintendo's games, the last Metroid and Mario games were very underwhelming, these new games have to prove to me that they're actaully good again. Smash Bros. just isn't my thing, so you can attribute that one to my taste in games I guess.

[Itchyeyes]

I'm sorry. If games like Brain Age, and Wii Sports encouraging toddlers to compete with retirees, does nothing to convince you that the Wii is a diverse platform, then I don't know what WILL convince you.

So in your first paragraph, you ask for a diversifying platform, and then you say you only want games you like? Pardon me if I'm a bit confused.

Edit: I'm not trying to sell you a Wii based on a future promise of games. I'm simply trying to state that the system with the largest install base gets the lions share of games. it has ALWAYS been that way.
I think you're confusing diversity with innovation or originality. Wii Sports is a great, original game, but it does nothing for someone who likes RPGs. Wii Sports addresses the exact same demographic that Brain Age, and Cooking Mama, and Elebits, and Wii Fit, and all those other titles address. They're all great, original titles, but there's no diversity.

[TheFlyingOrc]

But that was my point, that's it. Where's that 3rd party support everyone's been going on so much about? Here it is the week of E3, it's halfway over, and we've had no significant games announced by third parties. None. I think the closest thing has been another Trauma Center.

Except that it appears that NO 3rd parties are announcing things at E3 anymore. How many 3rd party games were announced at all? They'll trickle down with time, don't worry.

[TheFlyingOrc]

I think you're confusing diversity with innovation or originality. Wii Sports is a great, original game, but it does nothing for someone who likes RPGs. Wii Sports addresses the exact same demographic that Brain Age, and Cooking Mama, and Elebits, and Wii Fit, and all those other titles address. They're all great, original titles, but there's no diversity.
Shooters,driving games, and sports, for the most part, address the same demographic. Again, your complaint is that your demographic is not being catered to, not that there is a lack of variety.

[Itchyeyes]

That's what Mario, Smash, and Metroid are for! (its not my fault you have bad taste in games)
This is the same exact thing Nintendo fans have trotted out for the last ten years every time you bring up Nintendo's lack of third party support. It doesn't matter how great Nintendo's games are, they cover a very small range of genres. Why is this such a hard concept for people to grasp? Don't tell me what games I ought to like. Who are you to decide what kinds of games I do and don't enjoy? Just because Mario is a great platforming game doesn't mean shit if I don't play platformers. Nintendo needs quality third party support. They've needed it for the last ten years and they still don't have it. You can talk all you want about how great it's going to be in the next three years, but you know what? It's the freaking week of E3, the Wii has been sold out for 8 months straight and not a single serious 3rd party game has so much as been announced. When good games start coming out, I'll be the first one in line to pick them up. But it's not there now, it certainly won't be for at least the next 6 months and judging from the kinds of things that were shown off this week for the Wii, I'm not holding my breath on the next 6-9 months after that either.

[Itchyeyes]

Shooters,driving games, and sports, for the most part, address the same demographic. Again, your complaint is that your demographic is not being catered to, not that there is a lack of variety.
That is a lack of variety! You just named probably the 3 largest genres in the industry today. How can Nintendo possibly have a diverse library with hardly any decent games from those genres? And don't confuse my complaint that my demographic isn't being addressed with the complaint that there's a lack of variety in Nintendo's games. I don't play racing games. I don't play sports games. I don't play MMO's. But Nintendo is doing no better of a job appealing to those genres than it is to the people who play shooters, RPG's, and strategy games. Nintendo is completely focussed on appealing to the casual gamer. How can you freaking argue with that when they pretty much open with that line at nearly every press conference they hold? Do you really believe that Nintendo is making an effort to appeal to the hardcore gamer?

[Venkman]

Do you really believe that Nintendo is making an effort to appeal to the hardcore gamer?

What, you don't like the idea of paying $40 for a white board to stand on that lets you simulate hoola-hooping? Or yoga? Or stepping up and down in a virtual gym? ;)

[bean19]

That's what Mario, Smash, and Metroid are for! (its not my fault you have bad taste in games)

So what do I play after I beat these? That's my point. Nintendo does have good first-party support, but they don't deliver all that frequently.

I don't want another DustCube.

[Venkman]

Did you guys hear about Nintendo's party game collection that is specifically catering to the old farts? Using the nunchuk, you can complain that young people use curse words, write virtual letters to the editor, and check the mailbox for your social secuity check. It's yet another collection of things that you could do just as easily in real life, only this time with a Wii-mote and some other random accessory, like Wii slippers or the Wii chair.

It's called Wii Fart.

[TheFlyingOrc]

So what do I play after I beat these? That's my point. Nintendo does have good first-party support, but they don't deliver all that frequently.

I don't want another DustCube.
Seriously, how many games do you people play? Goodness - I thought I was a video game addict!

5 top-tier games in the first year and you people still complain. Also, after you finish those, you can KEEP PLAYING SMASH.

[Kamalot]

Did you guys hear about Nintendo's party game collection that is specifically catering to the old farts? Using the nunchuk, you can complain that young people use curse words, write virtual letters to the editor, and check the mailbox for your social secuity check. It's yet another collection of things that you could do just as easily in real life, only this time with a Wii-mote and some other random accessory, like Wii slippers or the Wii chair.

It's called Wii Fart.
After listening to pansy-ass whiners on Evil Avatar complain that Nintendo is 'leaving them behind' it wouldn't surprise me to find a bunch of people here in the Old Fart category. Wah, wah, wah. Nintendo hasn't made any RPGs for the Wii yet. Waaah! It is drafty in here!

[TheFlyingOrc]

That is a lack of variety! You just named probably the 3 largest genres in the industry today. How can Nintendo possibly have a diverse library with hardly any decent games from those genres? And don't confuse my complaint that my demographic isn't being addressed with the complaint that there's a lack of variety in Nintendo's games. I don't play racing games. I don't play sports games. I don't play MMO's. But Nintendo is doing no better of a job appealing to those genres than it is to the people who play shooters, RPG's, and strategy games. Nintendo is completely focussed on appealing to the casual gamer. How can you freaking argue with that when they pretty much open with that line at nearly every press conference they hold? Do you really believe that Nintendo is making an effort to appeal to the hardcore gamer?
Look at that group of people! They have a black guy, a jew, an indian, a chinese man, a japanese woman, 3 native americans, and a brazilian!

WTF, No white people or Hispanics? Well, since they don't have the largest 2, they aren't diverse!

YOUR ARGUMENT is that they are not covering a certain market segment well. This is probably true. But considering they personally released an adventure game, a shooter, a platformer, a fighter, a motion-control sports game, 2 pure party games, an arcade racer, and a "train your brain" game. Is there depth? Not really. Is there variety and diversity? Undoubtedly.

I have told you what you are arguing. This is a valid freaking argument, that Nintendo is not addressing important genres enough. They could use some GOOD true FPSs and Sim Racers(and RPGs). However, you've committed yourself to arguing some bullcrap about diversity in which you can't be wrong since you're defining what diversity is.

[bean19]

After listening to pansy-ass whiners on Evil Avatar complain that Nintendo is 'leaving them behind' it wouldn't surprise me to find a bunch of people here in the Old Fart category. Wah, wah, wah. Nintendo hasn't made any RPGs for the Wii yet. Waaah! It is drafty in here!

You are an admin now.

Doesn't that mean that you should not take the position of simply calling people names when you disagree with them? I know you are playing, but that really dismisses the argument in a way that I never dismiss your arguments. I expect better from you even before your named got red.

Nintendo does have great first-party software, but it doesn't have depth or breadth of games. That is a weakness of the console you like the most this generation. Right now, I'm having the most fun with my Xbox 360, but when people screamed and yelled about the fact that they were breaking down and Microsoft wasn't taking responsibility, I got out there and screamed and yelled too. What was the result? Microsoft has finally taken responsibility and they are going to fix the problem (for free) for 3 years.

My point is that this criticism of Nintendo isn't malicious. We want the system to be better. I also want the PS3 to be better. The problem I have with it is the lack of truly compelling games and the high price point. The problem I have with the 360 is that Live still costs money, they aren't releasing shit in the summer and will have the biggest clusterfuck of great games ever this fall because of it, so I barely have anything to play now (beat Overlord and I'm about done with The Darkness). The problems I have with the Wii are that it's game library lacks breadth and depth, the online service is poor, and I personally think the controller's pointer feature is difficult to use (though I'm praying that reports of Metroid Prime controlling well are true). What I want from each of these companies is for them to improve on the things that I don't like.

In short, be a fan of a system if you must, but don't attack people for having valid criticisms of it. If you disagree, then point out WHY you disagree and try to convince us. If you find yourself agreeing, then don't treat a console like it's your baby. Maybe if you criticize them, they'll improve.

[TheFlyingOrc]

and I personally think the controller's pointer feature is difficult to use
Have you done a lot of work to make sure that the one you are using has the sensor bar in a good location, and that the remote is set on the right sensitivity? I found that glare off the TV was making the remote see lights that weren't there. I've found the difference between a properly installed sensor bar and one that is not to be HUGE.

edit: I disagree on breadth, but agree on depth

[bean19]

Seriously, how many games do you people play? Goodness - I thought I was a video game addict!

5 top-tier games in the first year and you people still complain. Also, after you finish those, you can KEEP PLAYING SMASH.

I played through the launch titles (including Zelda which was a great, deep game), in about 2 weeks. Now, there wasn't all that much I wanted to play with the launch. I beat Rayman, and I beat about 2/3 of Trauma Center at which point it got so hard I never wanted to play again, and I also beat Excite Truck. I also played a lot of Wii Sports.

If I bought a Wii today, I would play and beat Super Mario RPG, Cooking Mama, and WarioWare (already beat at a friend's house, but I'd open up all the games, etc. for friends to play with me) - so 2 weeks to a month. . . later this year, I'd play and beat Smash, Dragon Quest Swords, Mario Galaxy, and Metroid. At the most, each of these games could entertain me 2 weeks to a month. That's what happened on my Gamecube. . . lots of nothing with a few great games.

Now this would be a secondary system, and I know it is a secondary system for most of you guys too. I get that. I just don't have one because those four games aren't out yet, $250 feels like too much to me, and I don't want to hunt one down.

I'll definitely get one eventually. . . it's just that I want it to be more than a secondary system that I dust off to play a small number of games each year.

You can like something a little bit and still want it to be better.

[Itchyeyes]

Look at that group of people! They have a black guy, a jew, an indian, a chinese man, a japanese woman, 3 native americans, and a brazilian!

WTF, No white people or Hispanics? Well, since they don't have the largest 2, they aren't diverse!

YOUR ARGUMENT is that they are not covering a certain market segment well. This is probably true. But considering they personally released an adventure game, a shooter, a platformer, a fighter, a motion-control sports game, 2 pure party games, an arcade racer, and a "train your brain" game. Is there depth? Not really. Is there variety and diversity? Undoubtedly.

I have told you what you are arguing. This is a valid freaking argument, that Nintendo is not addressing important genres enough. They could use some GOOD true FPSs and Sim Racers(and RPGs). However, you've committed yourself to arguing some bullcrap about diversity in which you can't be wrong since you're defining what diversity is.
Perhaps I'm not using the correct word when I say 'diverse'. But come on... Nintendo is ignoring a whole hell of a lot of major genres that mostly appeal to the hard core gamer, and for some reason the 3rd party developers aren't stepping up to take their place either. I may have gotten off track, but my whole point from post #4 of this thread was that the Wii is not shaping up to be a system for the hard core gamer. People seem to think that the whole lineup of Mario/Zelda/Metroid is enough to keep the hardcore base, and I'm saying it's just not enough.

[TheFlyingOrc]

I'm fine with that, my point was just that you spend a lot more hours a week playing video games. A LOT.

[bean19]

Have you done a lot of work to make sure that the one you are using has the sensor bar in a good location, and that the remote is set on the right sensitivity? I found that glare off the TV was making the remote see lights that weren't there. I've found the difference between a properly installed sensor bar and one that is not to be HUGE.

edit: I disagree on breadth, but agree on depth

Well, I placed in about 6 spots and followed all of the instructions (then experimented with not following them). I read forums and tried different things. I got it to the point where using Navi in menus wasn't hell, but I never got it to the point that it didn't feel like piloting a straw with a rocket engine for games like Red Steel.

[Venkman]

After listening to pansy-ass whiners on Evil Avatar

If you weren't an admin I would ask if you were new to the forums. ;)

You gotta admit: Wii Fart is hilarious.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Perhaps I'm not using the correct word when I say 'diverse'. But come on... Nintendo is ignoring a whole hell of a lot of major genres that mostly appeal to the hard core gamer, and for some reason the 3rd party developers aren't stepping up to take their place either. I may have gotten off track, but my whole point from post #4 of this thread was that the Wii is not shaping up to be a system for the hard core gamer. People seem to think that the whole lineup of Mario/Zelda/Metroid is enough to keep the hardcore base, and I'm saying it's just not enough.
There we go! I knew you had a valid argument in there somewhere!

I feel that their pittance toward the hardcore market, while weak, is still better than Microsoft's small offerings at the feet of casual gamers.

I also still think the 3rd parties are coming. I've been saying March-April 08 for a while now...Publishers started working on Wii games when it became a success (January or so), which means the games will come out in early 08.

And NOBODY announced ANYTHING at E3, so lack of new 3rd party announcements for Nintendo means nothing, really.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Well, I placed in about 6 spots and followed all of the instructions (then experimented with not following them). I read forums and tried different things. I got it to the point where using Navi in menus wasn't hell, but I never got it to the point that it didn't feel like piloting a straw with a rocket engine for games like Red Steel.
Man, that sucks. I feel that when I place it somewhere where its right in front of the TV and its lined up straight, it works pretty much perfectly.

Either one of us has differently behaving hardware or we are judging by radically different standards.