Bill Gates speaks at Live 8 UK

[Varsity]

Bill Gates made a surprise appearance (http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=13887199) at Live 8 (http://www.live8live.com/) to show his support for the campaign to end poverty and hunger.

A short extract from his speech:Some day in the future all people no matter where they are born will be able to lead a healthy life. We can do this and when we do it will be the best thing that humanity has ever done.
The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation has in the past donated billions to fighting poverty.

[StoneGut]

Good job Bill.

[thecrazyd]

Bah. You can't "end hunger." Starving nations are starving for a reason. Because there are more people there than the land can support. Giving them food will just promote more overpopulation, making more people that the land can't support, causing more famine. Giving them food may be nice in the short run, but in the long run, it is fucking them over.

[mkelehan]

Seeing that there were 2 replies, I figured one of them would be from the anti-feeding-the-hungry viewpoint.

[retsudo]

Bullshit. If you had ever paid attention in your lessons, you may have learned that there is plenty of food to go around, but due to the crippling debts and corrupion in some countries people cannot afford to buy the food their own local fams are producing.

[Liquidize105]

thecrazyd, you're so clueless I don't even know where to begin.

[thecrazyd]

I know, food goes to waste. But, if we gave them more food, the population would expand, and, since their area cannot support a greater population, they will always be dependant on that food. Famines end when the population stabelizes.

[thecrazyd]

Begin wherever you want Liquidize. Short term kindness < long term kindness.

[Liquidize105]

Do you know why an average African woman would have to give birth so many times?

And what is your "long term kindness?" Click on the LIVE 8 link and read it at least.

[Taco]

For crazy long term kindness = euthanasia I think.

Hehe, "anti-feeding-the-hungry viewpoint", nice.

[falak]

Wow. Someone thinks poverty as a population control is a wise long term investment! Unbelievable.

[president_fred]

Well if they didn't smell so bad maybe they wouldn't be hungry.

[Darkholmme]

The vast majority of impoverished countries, where the people are starving, are NOT overpopulated. Countries like Mexico and most of the South American countries can support much greater populations than they are supporting now. For most people, the availability of food has nothing to do with population, but with economics. First, because of the supply-and-demand nature of the market, countries that produce certain crops that would flood the market and drive a price down pay their farmers to dump the crops. Hundreds of thousands of tons of food, like corn in recent years, just gets weakly dispersed or, in most cases, burned. The current market economy demands this, so it apparently isn't even an option to simply give the food away - in a sense, in order for nations to prosper in an agrarian market, starving people must exist, or their problem must not be corrected.

And secondly, there is a grain of truth to the notion that dropping food won't necessarily solve anything. The land may support the people, but the economy will not. At the same time, however, with healthier workers, economies prosper, and people become less a burden of the state and more an asset of the state. So feeding the hungry is really a good thing for these impoverished nations, even if it is a bad thing for developed ones.

The problem here is that farmers are already struggling, and to mess with the agrarian market would only further their impoverishment... sticky situation everywhere.

[Justin_McElroy]

I don't know why we bother to feed anyone when we know the katamari will soon be rolling us all up. You can't eat on the katarmi, nephew.

[Varsity]

I know, food goes to waste. But, if we gave them more food, the population would expand, and, since their area cannot support a greater population, they will always be dependant on that food. Famines end when the population stabelizes.
You are wrong, yet you believe yourself to be right despite having no knowledge. Go and educate yourself, then come back.

My favorite quote: "Do not criticise what you do not understand".

[Taco]

After the war, when America is a starving third world country, Crazy will understand a bit better ;).

[Beelzebud]

Stalin thought letting people starve to death was good population control too.

If you want to be in the Stalin Camp, be my guest. You'll find me with the HUMANS.

[Kelegacy]

Ending hunger is easy: Soylent Green.

[Beelzebud]

Ending hunger is easy: Solent Green.

Soylent Green! It's PEOPLE!!!!!! AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!

:P

[Justin_McElroy]

Hey, considering there was a repainted "Computer Space" arcade machine in Soylent Green, this conversation is vaguely video game related again!

[Kelegacy]

Hey, considering there was a repainted "Computer Space" arcade machine in Soylent Green, this conversation is vaguely video game related again!

This is Goddamned uncanny, Justin--we are the same age: you were born the same year, month and DAY as me. Are you my evil (or good) twin?

[Justin_McElroy]

I'm my own man Kelegacy, my own man, and I'm riding my own star to glory. Get off my comet Kelegacy, GET OFF MY COMET!

P.S. I've killed eight kids, so unless you've got me beat there, I'm gonna bet I'm the evil one.

[retsudo]

Anyway, Gates has some fucking cheek being on stage pretending to give a shit about poverty. Enforcing the sale of overpriced software to people in third world nations who really could be spending their money on better things, and aiding and abetting the same corrupt regimes that led to the poverty in the first place (ie helping censor the net in China etc) aren't the noblest donations to 'the cause'

[Liquidize105]

Concessions, my friend.

To be a 100% nice guy is to be stumped on and walked all over. The world is not divided between good and evil, after all. He is still a businessman, hunger is an eminent problem, regardless of which brand of OS people use or what they believe.

[fndarkone]

meh. wake me up when the rich do more than throw money at a problem to make it look like they care.

[Liquidize105]

meh. wake me up when the rich do more than throw money at a problem to make it look like they care.
Sigh.

Click on the LIVE 8 link and read it.

[gsmith]

Fact: Donating billions of dollars is more than "pretending to give a shit" no matter how rich you are. It makes a difference even if you aren't sitting around having philosophical debates about how to solve the world's problems. There are a lot of great cheritable organizations out there that make a huge difference in the quality of life in our world and I think its silly to trivialize their impact.

[Kelegacy]

I'm my own man Kelegacy, my own man, and I'm riding my own star to glory. Get off my comet Kelegacy, GET OFF MY COMET!

P.S. I've killed eight kids, so unless you've got me beat there, I'm gonna bet I'm the evil one.

I stopped my brother Sarevok from becoming a God. I will stop you too, Brother Justin. Our dark father's blood may run in both our veins, but I will not submit to that insidious call. My lot in life is to destroy my evil brethren. I will not fail.

[BigJonno]

You know what really annoys me about world hunger? French farmers have been complaining because we want to stop paying them not to produce food.

[Justin_McElroy]

In the middle of one of the most serious EA convos ever, Kelegacy and I are having the most fantastic discussions in history. This is yet another reason that I would like to dis-invent the Internet.

[screwtape]

The Bill and Melinda Gates foundation has donated more than $5 Billion dollars (http://www.gatesfoundation.org/GlobalHealth/HIVAIDSTB/Grants/default.htm?showYear=2005) to various global health initiatives. Any way you slice it, he's a very generous philanthropist, and to belittle his philanthropy because of his excessive wealth (or for any other reason, for that matter) is silly.

[Mac]

meh. wake me up when the rich do more than throw money at a problem to make it look like they care.

Nobody cares enough to get you involved if you aren't ready and willing as is to help. You're not nearly that important.

[mister_slim]

In the middle of one of the most serious EA convos ever, Kelegacy and I are having the most fantastic discussions in history. This is yet another reason that I would like to dis-invent the Internet.
If we can just jump internet technology forward a bit then dis-inventing the net would be unnecessary. In the Matrix everyone thinks they're well fed...

[ezra]

Anyway, Gates has some fucking cheek being on stage pretending to give a shit about poverty. Enforcing the sale of overpriced software to people in third world nations who really could be spending their money on better things, and aiding and abetting the same corrupt regimes that led to the poverty in the first place (ie helping censor the net in China etc) aren't the noblest donations to 'the cause'


People who are buying software are not starving. Do you think the people reciveing this aid give a shit about who donated it, and what his motives may or may not be?


And as to the 'dont feed the poor' argument, it disgusts me. Are you actually trying to tell us that the deaths of millions of people are 'good in the long term?'. By your logic, exterminating the entire human race would be 'the best thing to do', since it would end all war, suffering and poverty.

[thecrazyd]

No, I think it is just best to let people live off their own food supply. Just because you can physically cram more people into an area does not mean the area can support that many people. Control of food is the only viable means of population contol.

[Vandenh]

>By your logic, exterminating the entire human race would be 'the best thing to do', since it would end all war, suffering and poverty.

Hmmm... Maybe he is a machine?

BTW how many of your saw the first Live Aid? Do you think this one uses a better approach by not asking for money but trying to "educate" people?

[Taco]

Anyway, Gates has some fucking cheek being on stage pretending to give a shit about poverty. Enforcing the sale of overpriced software to people in third world nations who really could be spending their money on better things, and aiding and abetting the same corrupt regimes that led to the poverty in the first place (ie helping censor the net in China etc) aren't the noblest donations to 'the cause'

Gates has donated more than most countries. I know the guys rich, but 5 Billion in donations? He's got all the right in the world to be on stage. Not to mention there are special versions of Windows for poorer nations that are a fraction of the price of Western world versions.

[bKangy]

He has more right than Bob Geldof, with $5bn donated, imo.

[retsudo]

"The Bill and Melinda Gates foundation has donated more than $5 Billion dollars to various global health initiatives. Any way you slice it, he's a very generous philanthropist, and to belittle his philanthropy because of his excessive wealth (or for any other reason, for that matter) is silly."
Calm down, melinda. Read before opening mouth. I am not against giving aid to any peoples/ nations that need it. Check the first page.
What I was saying is
a) Bill Gates has done a fair bit to CREATE poverty and suffering over the world
b) 5 Billion sounds a lot and in practice is obviously good for the charity concered but in terms of his personal finances its fuck all. Its probably worth it for a purely monetary sense for the tax relief on it for gates.

"People who are buying software are not starving. Do you think the people reciveing this aid give a shit about who donated it, and what his motives may or may not be?"
No shit sherlock. People who are trying to run the countries only power station, work out how to best distribute the aid packages throughout an area, control a pharmacutical plant churning out vaccine for the endemic plagues sweeping their country, however, MAY have a bit of use for software which they would be way the fuck better off not having to pay overblown prices for.

"And as to the 'dont feed the poor' argument, it disgusts me. Are you actually trying to tell us that the deaths of millions of people are 'good in the long term?'. By your logic, exterminating the entire human race would be 'the best thing to do', since it would end all war, suffering and poverty."
I hope that was supposed to be in reference to someone else, because thats not my stance at all. I've been to Africa to do aid work.

[Taco]

Bill Gates has created poverty by selling Operating Systems?

Yeah I think I'll ignore the rest of your post and anything else you have to say.

By the way Google and Yahoo and countless other companies do the same thing in China, like it or not, no one is drawing the line.

[Rommel]

Begin wherever you want Liquidize

Actually, I would prefer to begin *to* liquidize.

[ezra]

No, retsudo i wasn't referring to you in regards to the let people starve bit.

But anyways, you really think that software is causing poverty? Do you think the impoverished nations have lost 5 billion dollars by buying this software? Because thats what Gates is giving them. Considering that donation I think your point is neglible.

crazyd:

Control of food is the only viable means of population contol.

Im reading that as "people dying is the only viable way of population control". Well, yeah thats true. But there are other ways to control population that don't include letting millions of people die.

Impovershied nations cannot create a functioning economy and society when they are starving to death. Maybe when hunger is not an issue, then these countries can start to become self sufficient. Until that point the most important thing to do is save lives, and we do that by feeding people.

[Taco]

Another evil company contributing to global poverty. (http://www.lamborghini.com/)

[Zanzibar]

Gates has donated $5 BILLION towards helping people. Don't like it? FUCK YOU; he's done more than you and every person you've ever known put together.

Population control through starvation? ANOTHER FUCK YOU. If you apply the logic that population control is a good thing regardless of the methodology, Hitler, Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, Milosevic, and Pol Pot should be your heroes.

As long as you sit on your ass and do nothing while SNEERING AT THOSE WHO DO then you should have zero respect for yourself.

[thecrazyd]

Don't you get it? By feeding them, we are creating more people that will eventually starve. You are putting a band-aid on a decapitation. We are not helping. And, to those who think I am anti-africa, I also believe we should slow food production in the rest of the world as well. Including America. You cannot avoid hitting a wall by running at it faster. We are putting out a fire by smothering it with gasoline. Pick what ever metaphore you want. We are making the problem worse.

[retsudo]

"Gates has donated $5 BILLION towards helping people. Don't like it? FUCK YOU; he's done more than you and every person you've ever known put together."

You have no idea who I know nor what they have done.
I put someone who donates half their income to helping others well above someone who puts 0.01 % of their income to ... getting a tax break on the rest of his money.
Care more about the reputation of a single asshole businessman than the starving millions? FUCK YOU.

[Mac]

Don't you get it? By feeding them, we are creating more people that will eventually starve. You are putting a band-aid on a decapitation. We are not helping. And, to those who think I am anti-africa, I also believe we should slow food production in the rest of the world as well. Including America. You cannot avoid hitting a wall by running at it faster. We are putting out a fire by smothering it with gasoline. Pick what ever metaphore you want. We are making the problem worse.

You son of a bitch. These are human lives we're talking about here, not numbers! Have you no heart? No sense of compassion? No common decency? I am clenching my fists and gritting my teeth, angered beyond words at the ignorance and cold-heartedness you are displaying. How would you like it if we did a 'food lotto' and your brother was chosen as 'not to be fed'? Your sister? Your mother?

Human life is NOT about the lowest common denominator - it's NOT about bottom line numbers and efficiency. Humanity's story is not told in dollar signs and mortar shells, but in the common coin of blood and bone of those who sacrifice and those who are lost. When you hear about the terrible things that happen daily in the world, is there not a voice that screams out within you, "This is not right!", or is it all simply statistics and numbers? We have been desensitized as a global culture by a million casual unkindnesses, by time and time again being snubbed and seeing ignorance and disrespect for life on a global scale. Please, do not contribute to it any further.

[Taco]

Crazyd is like drano for your mind.

[thecrazyd]

You son of a bitch. These are human lives we're talking about here, not numbers! Have you no heart? No sense of compassion? No common decency? I am clenching my fists and gritting my teeth, angered beyond words at the ignorance and cold-heartedness you are displaying. How would you like it if we did a 'food lotto' and your brother was chosen as 'not to be fed'? Your sister? Your mother?

Human life is NOT about the lowest common denominator - it's NOT about bottom line numbers and efficiency. Humanity's story is not told in dollar signs and mortar shells, but in the common coin of blood and bone of those who sacrifice and those who are lost. When you hear about the terrible things that happen daily in the world, is there not a voice that screams out within you, "This is not right!", or is it all simply statistics and numbers? We have been desensitized as a global culture by a million casual unkindnesses, by time and time again being snubbed and seeing ignorance and disrespect for life on a global scale. Please, do not contribute to it any further.
I understand these are human lives, and I do care. People are suffering. But if we keep providing them with quick fixes instead of long term help, they will continue suffering indeffinately. The solution of feeding them will just make more people who will suffer.

[retsudo]

Fuckin' A, Mac.

Look, the point isnt that Gates is a particularly bad man, or that he hasn't done anything to help; but he certainly could have done a fuckton more and is not, tbh, a good representative of the ideals behind live 8.

[Heretic Machine]

Don't you get it? By feeding them, we are creating more people that will eventually starve. You are putting a band-aid on a decapitation. We are not helping. And, to those who think I am anti-africa, I also believe we should slow food production in the rest of the world as well. Including America. You cannot avoid hitting a wall by running at it faster. We are putting out a fire by smothering it with gasoline. Pick what ever metaphore you want. We are making the problem worse.

You realize that not every cent of the $5 has gone to food, right? There is this little thing we have now called birth control, which these people need to be taught how to use, and given. This costs money, money that comes out of his aid money. Not to mention shelter, and most likely development of more farm land and industry.

[thecrazyd]

Birth contol is another bandaid. The only way they will be able to support themselves is if we allow them to do so.

[Taco]

I'm trying, but I just can't find words to express my opinion of your posts. It's quite stunning exactly.

You are OK with letting them starve as you cram another twinkie down your throat?

[Heretic Machine]

I tried giving you the benefit of the doubt, really, I did... But if you are against the only real method for population control (birth control pills and condoms), and also against giving them food... Well, you're just a misguided bastard.

[ezra]

Don't you get it? By feeding them, we are creating more people that will eventually starve. You are putting a band-aid on a decapitation. We are not helping. And, to those who think I am anti-africa, I also believe we should slow food production in the rest of the world as well. Including America. You cannot avoid hitting a wall by running at it faster. We are putting out a fire by smothering it with gasoline. Pick what ever metaphore you want. We are making the problem worse.

Yes, we should slow food production in the rest of the world, where people are not dying by the thousands every day . I hope I never experience the environment that produced you, sir.

How, exactly, is feeding them creating more people? By feeding people we are ensuring that men women and children (that are already alive!) do not die. If these people survive long enough, yes they might have children. And if we continue to donate money to this most important cause (see original tread topic), maybe these children will be able to eat food that was grown in their own soil. Letting people die is never the solution.

retsudo:

Do you know any millionaires? If not, then I guess zanzibar was probably right. Think about it this way. We both want there to be foreign aid to poor countries, right? We want people to live. So therefore, bill gates donating money is a good thing.
Now, what we want is for more rich people to donate more money to this cause, right? Yes, we do, because that would mean billions more dollars to be used to fight poverty, to end hunger, to save lives. So how does that happen? Well, we say 'GOOD JOB BILL, THAT SURE WAS NICE OF YOU. MAYBE IF YOU DO IT MORE OFTEN WE WILL LIKE YOU MORE AND BUY PRODUCTS FROM YOUR EVIL EMPIRE OF SIN'.

The motive for his donation was at least partly good publicity. No one doubts that. But that fact is people need that money.

[thecrazyd]

Are you supporting them to the point where you starve? Then you have no right to talk. I'm talking about what is good for them. Starvation is nothing but a symptom of overpopulation. Your solution is fixing a symptom, while making the overall problem worse.

[Taco]

Well I would indeed support them to the point where YOU would starve. We'd be killing two birds with one stone.

[Heretic Machine]

The motive for his donation was at least partly good publicity. No one doubts that. But that fact is people need that money.

It should also be pointed out that when Bill dies he plans to donate like 95% of his fortune to charity. His kids only get a little bit (by little, I mean this in a relative sence), as he wants them to earn their own money.

[Liquidize105]

Using modern agricultural methods, FAO has predicted that developing countries could sustain a population of 30 billion people.

We have to give both food and the means to a sustainable economy.

Do you think africa's poor by nature? The land was used up in many cases to produce household products for first-world people. Where do you think your bananas, peanut oil, and hamburger all come from? Their agricultural economy was destroyed by cash cropping. It's capitalism at its finest - making the rich richer and the poor poorer.

[thecrazyd]

Well I would indeed support them to the point where YOU would starve. We'd be killing two birds with one stone.
If you want to argue, and you want to disagree, thats cool. Grow up, and leave out the personal attacks. I have not said anything insulting to you, but all I hear is shit. Fuck you, and fuck this conversation. I know you disagree. Get over it.

[Racknahm]

You do realize the money is going to countries where the ground is so hard and lacking in nutrients that they're starving because crops won't grow. I don't think you're getting the seriousness of the issue. We aren't talking about millions that would die we're talking about atleast one third of the world's population dying from starvation. I'm sorry if you think that these people should die just because they made the mistake of being born.

[Taco]

That's amusing, mr. let's kill the poor of the world asking someone else to grow up.

[Kelegacy]

in fairness, many philanthropists give so much money away because it is a huge tax break for them...charitable donations are a write-off typically. However, 5 billion is alot of cash. I can see WHY he hires people full time to give it away (he has so much that many full time employees are needed for the Microsoft philanthropy department), but to say that his donations are evil, i think that's a little misguided.

I'd rather give it to a great cause than have the government take it away every year on Tax Day.

[Taco]

To contrast the United States government is offering 1.7 billion over the next 5 years.

But hey, it's all about publicity and Africans should all die, so screw Bill Gates!!

[Adewade]

I really want to punch about half the people in this thread right about now.

[RandomViolence]

I really want to punch about half the people in this thread right about now.

Agreed. There are so many misguided perspectives in these messages that it's frankly a little scary to think about. I say good job to Mr. Gates for doing as much as he has. I think that the rest of you arguing that either this is a waste (thecrazyd, letting thousands starve is not the way of treating overpopulation) or calling Mr. Gates' into question (retsudo, to doubt one of the world's most generous philanthropists being onstage is disrespectful as hell) need to take a second, calm down, and just realize this is a good thing.

Well done, Bill.

[Red Cloak]

How much has Kutaragi donated to fight poverty? Honest question.

[Kelegacy]

How much has Kutaragi donated to fight poverty? Honest question.

Two Slimline PS2's and a little Taiwanese girl named Ninomo.

[screwtape]

If I give blood just so I can get a free cookie and a cup of orange juice, does that make my donation any less important? I argue it is the same principle for Gates, except it's enough cookies and orange juice to ensure adult-onset diabetes for the entire world.

See that? Working in a multi-layered lame joke based on the content of this thread.

[Justin_McElroy]

Kelegacy, you seem to have forgotten his other gift...500,000 EyeToys...and a dream. That, my friends, is true generosity. Oh, P.S. Just a reminder...none of this shit will matter after the Katamari gets us.

[Justin_McElroy]

And it will.

[Blue]

Doesn't this have something to do with the 360 sucking? I was sure I'd find something like that in this thread. I'm confused. And a bit disappointed.

[buckfutter]

Anyone else's head hurt?

Personally I believe Gates is an unquestionable asshole. However, whatever his own reasons are, I'm not adverse to him giving away money to poor people. Being on stage and talking about philanthropy is a bit much... but seeing as I have no interest in watching the damn thing, again, it doesn't matter to me.

The whole Live 8 shebang is rather hypocritical, but unfortunately the only way to draw the attention of your common man is with celebrities and Bono's leather pants. As long as it does more good than harm, then I don't care.

[Kyle Jones]

Not reading a single reply to this thread, I'm not suprised at all that Bill was supporting. He's an amazing fellow when it comes to donations, my college has a special program for high schoolers to get their GEDs funded by Gates.

[ezra]

Just for reference, Bill gates' current fortune stands at $46.5 Billion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_billionaires). So by some simple math we can see that he has just donated 10.7% of his entire fucking fortune. That is a huge amount, both relatively and simply because of the numbers we are dealing with. It's also a hell of a lot more than most people donate to charity.


PS: this isnt the only time he's donated money to charity. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%26_Melinda_Gates_Foundation)

[TrackZero]

Concessions, my friend.

To be a 100% nice guy is to be stumped on and walked all over. The world is not divided between good and evil, after all. He is still a businessman, hunger is an eminent problem, regardless of which brand of OS people use or what they believe.

True. And I seem to recall hearing at some point within the last year that their foundation funds the only privately funded lab for AIDS research. There's lots of rich people in the world, most don't make those kinds of contributions however.

retsudo:
I highly doubt Microsoft makes their fortune with licensing fees on impoverished nations. It's not like they would be charging the same prices they do to first world nations, nor is it required that they use Microsoft software in any way. That's just being silly. He offers a product that someone buys, it's that simple. There's no moral highground to take on the issue. Nor is a company the personification of one man (only in VERY rare cases, and certainly not with the size of a company like MS). I used to work at WorldCom. Am I at fault because of their business practices? Hell no.

[IndependentGMR]

I'd like to know how much money you guys have donated to charities? It's nice to argue on a message board that aiding the needy is a good thing. Nevertheless, I can't help but feel like these words being thrown back and forth are meaningless. Donate money if you feel it's the right thing to do. If you are one of the few that believes giving money is pointless, then maybe you should keep your thoughts to yourself.

[TrackZero]

"Gates has donated $5 BILLION towards helping people. Don't like it? FUCK YOU; he's done more than you and every person you've ever known put together."

You have no idea who I know nor what they have done.
I put someone who donates half their income to helping others well above someone who puts 0.01 % of their income to ... getting a tax break on the rest of his money.
Care more about the reputation of a single asshole businessman than the starving millions? FUCK YOU.

No, you need to stop talking now. You can't even do simple mathetics.

Bill Gates estimated net worth is $46.6 billion (in late 2004). He gave 5 billion through this charity, that means he's given away 9.32% of his lifetime earnings. The Live 8 event is just to get COUNTRIES to give 0.7% of their earnings. I don't think I've ever heard a single person who's given that amount of their earnings away to help fix fundental issues affecting the 3rd world.

So just stop it, you're sounding like someone who's completely uneducated about the issues being discussed. This is a case of a 'little knowledge being dangerous' and you're looking to vilify this man to fit him into your worldview.

[Zanzibar]

PS: this isnt the only time he's donated money to charity. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%26_Melinda_Gates_Foundation)

That link is freakin' amazing. A must-read for the Gates-haters.

[Paranoia]

That link is freakin' amazing. A must-read for the Gates-haters.

No use, Gates haters have nothing to do but to rant like a spoilt child no matter what.

It's pretty clear that their ranting is due to superiority complex. :D

[TrackZero]

No use, Gates haters have nothing to do but to rant like a spoilt child no matter what.

It's pretty clear that their ranting is due to superiority complex. :D

Heh, I think you mean inferiority complex. But I know what you meant. ;)

[Carnifex]

Starvation is nothing but a symptom of overpopulation.
This is wrong, and I refuse to elaborate. Do the research yourself, maybe you'll learn something.

[falak]

The thread is dead, but I was asleep, so I don't care.

- Reducing food production does not slow down population growth. Africa is already an excellent example of this. Population growth is a social issue. People will and do fuck, whether they have food or not.

- In fact, people fuck MORE when they have no job, no food and are staring death in the face (EDIT: I recently watched a BBC report about AIDS in Africa. A man was asked if he had AIDS and he said yes. He said he still had sex "because it doesn't matter any more, I'm dying"). Most developed countries have a very small population growth. Reducing food production is biblical by its nature. It is very epic and causes lots of death, but in the end does the opposite of what it was supposed to do.

- Live 8 was not about raising aid, although I concede that the G8 leaders have already proposed to double aid (or something).

- Safe sex is not a temporary solution. It is one of THE solutions.

Regarding Bill Gates, this has been discussed many times before. Here are the main points (these are not my words/opinions, btw):

- He gets a lot of tax breaks.

- He reduced the price of his product to compete with free/open alternatives.

- He uses his donations to advertise himself (billboards, etc).

- He has a lot of shares in pharmaceutical corporations. He is trying to get Africa hooked on foreign drugs.

That last one sounds a bit paranoid to me. I'm of the opinion that money is coming from SOMEWHERE, and that is all that matters.


This thread is OVER! *Slams door*

[TrackZero]

falak
has
spoken.

[Savok]

I see I've ignored quite a battle I'm not about to read in detail. Skimming over it does seem that some people think "raising awareness" and then throwing money at them will solve all, hasn't done anything yet has it. Others seem to think overpopulation is the problem, China seems to be coping. The problem is the people in charge are incompetent, incredibly corrupt, or both. On top of this, we seem to refuse to hold them accountable, they squander all their money, we pat them on the head and give them more.

Gates, however misguided, is as always incredibly generous.

Live 8 not about money? Why are local charities banned (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050629.wnocharity0629/BNStory/Entertainment/) then? Why is Bono demanding the rich nations of the world take action?

[retsudo]

In fact, the reason they dont have any money in the first place is because of rich 'western' nations stealing all their resources in the past, and making the countries they took them from pay for it - which they are still paying for.

[RandomViolence]

In fact, the reason they dont have any money in the first place is because of rich 'western' nations stealing all their resources in the past, and making the countries they took them from pay for it - which they are still paying for.

Please let me know when you become less single-mindedly hateful. I agree that there have been travesties in the past like you mention above. They are not, however, the issue being discussed and and not the end all cause of every problem in third world countries. I'd try and point out a few minor things, like corrupt dictators bankrupting nations and other governmental mistakes and imbalances, but... somehow I don't think you'll accept those as pertinent issues. It's the evil west's fault in all things, apparently.

[Heretic Machine]

Western nations do have a lot to answer for, the Europeans specifically. The decolinization of most of the world was handled in the most sloppy manor possible after Imperialism went the way of the dodo. Much of the world is still in shambles because of this, half a century later.

[RandomViolence]

Western nations do have a lot to answer for, the Europeans specifically. The decolinization of most of the world was handled in the most sloppy manor possible after Imperialism went the way of the dodo. Much of the world is still in shambles because of this, half a century later.

I'm not arguing that the West and especially Europe isn't responsible for major strife post-Imperialism. What I am saying is that it's not the only cause for everything happening. It's ignoring all the other problems in less developed countries to single-mindedly focus on that as the only cause.

[Vulture]

Sorry this "Someone has to be the villian" and let's blame Europe's colonization in this thread is evidence that people here really are try to simplify human nature and it's consequences.

The simple answer Africa is the way it is because people are the way they are. There will always be poor (and most likely hungry), the scale just varies.

Do what you can and lets others help as they can, but don't criticize others for not helping as much; there are not you.

[eeje13]

I really want to punch about half the people in this thread right about now.

Punching people is like starving them, the only long-term solution to this thread.

[Heretic Machine]

I'm not arguing that the West and especially Europe isn't responsible for major strife post-Imperialism. What I am saying is that it's not the only cause for everything happening. It's ignoring all the other problems in less developed countries to single-mindedly focus on that as the only cause.

The problem is that many of your other "causes" were set into motion because of decolinization. Dictators more specifically, would of had a much harder time rising to power if a proper government had been established in many of these countries before Europe pulled out. This is why we are still in Iraq today, trying to help bring them towards stability after we took apart their country (not saying the war was right or wrong, just that our continued presence there is needed).

[ezra]

The simple answer Africa is the way it is because people are the way they are. There will always be poor (and most likely hungry), the scale just varies.


I dont even know what to say to that. I can't quite obtain any sort of point or statement out of that collection of words. But it sounds a lot like you think there is a 'simple answer' to one of the worlds largest problems.

No, it is not simply imperialism's fault, no it is not simply the fault of the african people, and no it is not simply the wests fault. There has not been once in history an event that was caused by a single thing. A variety of factors have created the situation we know today, and only a variety of efforts from people all around the world will help make africa a better place.

[Paltry]

There were no "proper" governments in Africa before European colonization. What makes you think that after de-colonization Africa would have accepted the "proper" governments established by their former rulers? The majority of Africa was ruled by rival tribes before colonization and it is slowly returning to that state in many parts Africa today. Borders are being redrawn. Ancient tribal feuds have been reignited since de-colonization. Anuak, Tutsi, and Acoli have all felt the effect of genocide. Countless civil wars and rebellions rage across much of Africa. There is widespread famine, disease, and ignorance. To put it simply Africa is a pretty tough place to live.

It is safe to say that Africa is in a Dark Age, as Europe was 1400 years ago. Hunger, disease, illiteracy, and war were rampant after the fall of the Roman Empire. There was one thing that saved Europe, and that was time. There was no one to give the Britons aid packages, there was no one sending medicine to the French. Time and, unfortunately, war and famine and death sorted Europe out. And even with this Europe rose from the ashes of the Roman Empire to become the eminent cultural and political power in the World. All it took was time.

Now we live in a time and place where we can ease the pain of this Dark Age in Africa. The 21st century is very different from the 11th, we have the means to deliver food and cancel debt... but will that really help? For the past 200 thousand years of human existence time, Mother Nature, Gaia, god, whatever, has been the cure for hardship. I know this is a tired metaphor but here goes...

The lodge pole pine's pinecones cannot seed unless they are heated by fire. For these trees to grow there must first be a wild fire. I like this example, it shows that death is part of nature, and even in death there is life. Perhaps this is how mankind works, to some it’s a scary thought but to me it’s almost comforting. No matter how bad things get, in time, they will heal themselves. I’m not saying we should sit back and idly watch 1/3 of our population die. I’m saying its almost pompous, at least overly optimistic, to think that a bunch of rock stars, hell, even the politicians at the g8 summit can fix only what time can.

[Zanzibar]

What the fuck IS this? Ezra had it right, there's a lot of factors that caused the world poverty situation. The question should no longer be 'who is to blame', but instead 'what will YOU do about it?'

Blame means nothing. You really, really don't want to start pointing fingers, because the US also has a fat lot of shit to be blamed for. The point is, we can either stand and point fingers or we can stand UP and help out to move the world in a direction AWAY from world poverty.

It doesn't even cost money to support this. (http://www.live8live.com/whattodo/index.shtml)

[NACIONAL]

looking some post of people around here.... makes me wanna puke...

starvation as a problem solution??.... damn.. that was the last drop.....

[skarironfist]

I think people need to read a little bit more. At the moment the Gates foundation has given out 5 Billion dollars. This is from an endowment of 28 Billion dollars from Bill and his father (I think we can all agree that is more than generous).

My understanding is that the gates foundation treats the charity in a busines like manner, they just don't give money away and hope for the best, they give the money and monitor the results. There is no point in giving away money and hoping for the best.

Live 8 was not just about removing debt to countries, its about opening up markets so those poor countries can actually trade with richer countries and pull themselves out of poverty. The whole subsidies system around the world makes it very difficult for poor countries to do that.

This last point is the most difficult. If food from these countries was actually sold at the prices it cost to make, then it would seriously undercut richer countries equivalent and therefore make it very difficult for farmers in the richer countries. So its a very difficult bridge to cross due to the whole polictical side of the free trade issue.

But back to Bill, hes put is money down and is trying to make a difference in his own country and around the world, hats off to him. I don't always agree with his strong arm tactics in business.

http://www.gatesfoundation.org/AboutUs/LetterfromBillMelindaFrenchGates/default.htm

[Zulu107]

Yes, I'm going to chime in to say that some views mainly food promotes overpopulation is about as moronic as to say that a person can actually survive off of minimum wage after they lose they're job to other peoples mischief at Enron. And for your info I guess the cleansing going on in Africa was then justified because hell, overpopulation was the key issue. Learn about issues before you chime in with insensitive remarks.

[Heretic Machine]

There were no "proper" governments in Africa before European colonization.

Stopped reading there, you pwned yourself. Go read Things Fall Apart by Chinua Achebe if you want a sense of how Africa worked before European colonization.

[mister_slim]

Go read Things Fall Apart by Chinua Achebe if you want a sense of how Africa worked before European colonization.
I'll put that on the list. Interesting books are always welcome. [makes a note]

[Savok]

What the fuck IS this? Ezra had it right, there's a lot of factors that caused the world poverty situation. The question should no longer be 'who is to blame', but instead 'what will YOU do about it?'

Glad someone can see running around blaming everyone is a waste of time, however there's little we can do until some major issues are resolved. First and foremost is holding Africa accountable, I don't care if the French ruled you, there is no excuse for genocide. Corruption and barbarism go right to the top in a lot of countries, and that's where we have to start, getting rid of the Mugabes and installing a government that WON'T piss everything away and WON'T run around murdering people.

As long as Africa has moronic thugs for leaders, nothing we do will mean anything in the long run.

[Eon]

Yeah well, if you want someone to blame for Decolonisation you can point the finger at the only country to come out of World War II richer - the United States of America.

Ghandi got a lot of props for working out how to end British rule in India - the problem was that India was funding the Empire. India was where all the money was, and most of the rest of the Empire secured trade routes or provided waystations for trading ships on the way there. Take India away and the Empire was running at a huge loss - add in the reparations that the Brits had to pay at the end of World War II (yes, they were treated a lot more like a vanquished foe than a victorious ally) and it's clear that decolonisation of Africa COULDN'T be handled any slower than it was.

Africa will remain a backwards and generally impoverished third world shit hole for as long as African's continue to work on tribal lines and refuse to take their governance seriously. Look at the Middle East - that's where Africa is GOING once it gets some money. Frightened at the scale of the problem yet?

I have just been reading Jared Diamond's Collapse - a very scary book that examines why a number of cultures have failed over the years. The proximate cause has always been exhaustion of resources due to massive overpopulation followed by some very short sided moves to try and replace those formerly common foods.

I'd say that Birth Control is Africa's only hope - and the worst thing that could happen to them is that they gain the means to expand their population without solving hte underlying problems. Because if they do then Ethiopa is going to look like a pleasant dream in comparison to the horror that will engulf the whole continent.

And we can't fix it - they have to. Their backward religions, cultures and political structures are dooming them to failure - and the world sent a memo to Europe and the US recently that said we aren't allowed to march in and fix them anymore.

[zyzyx]

It isn't really right to blame decolonization by Europeans as the source of the problem here. India, Malaysia and Botswana were all British colonies in 1945 and all have gone on to incredible success and were handled the exact same way as poor African nations. The key is good governments. We can't force that upon them but we can create a global market place that encourages good governance through trade and accountability.

[Savok]

That's because the British knew what they were doing. Try an ex-French colony, jesus. And Malaysia has its share of problems stemming mostly from having a racist, nutty leader for a good while (I think he's dead now, or done over on corruption, maybe both), though it does manage to function as a halfway normal country.

And Africa is beyond repair, years of aid arming the militias and a corruption that poisons every level. Rip it up and start over, it's the only way. Of course the UN won't allow that, considering it rewards the more tyranical leaders.

[Paltry]

"Stopped reading there, you pwned yourself. Go read Things Fall Apart by Chinua Achebe if you want a sense of how Africa worked before European colonization."

Perigon, dont be such an ignorant cunt. I was responding to a previous poster who mentioned "proper" governments. Note the quotes around proper... asshole

"Dictators more specifically, would of had a much harder time rising to power if a proper government had been established in many of these countries before Europe pulled out."

By saying they had no "proper" governments I meant in the modern western idea of a "proper" government. Now if you wanna argue that Africa did have these types of governments 500 years ago then lets do it. So instead of telling me how I "pwned" myself why dont you read the fucking post and respond to it like a reasoning man.

[Paltry]

Oh come on Perigon, a novel?

[Eon]

I think the Belgians and the French were the worst - although the Spanish were also fairly vindictive when it came time to pull out of a colony.

I know that the Belgians ripped up every foot of track on the way out of one of their colonies, whilst the Spanish even took the dead from the cemeteries.

[bjornbarspingvinen]

Evil Dead
" Bah. You can't "end hunger." Starving nations are starving for a reason. Because there are more people there than the land can support. Giving them food will just promote more overpopulation, "

poor Families get more kids(because many die?), but succesful carrer and western families usually get 1 or 2 kids. So maybe healthy east families will contribute more to science and overall education and production? And bring up less kids.
I think everyone deserves a good chance. And hopefully if nobody starves if will generate more education and less overpopulation, although it seems like a weird equation :/

[ezra]

And we can't fix it - they have to. Their backward religions, cultures and political structures are dooming them to failure - and the world sent a memo to Europe and the US recently that said we aren't allowed to march in and fix them anymore.

You were almost making sense up until that point. Care to define 'backwards'?

[Savok]

The Spanish liked to go on genocidal rampages. Not much left to screw up.

Also Africa has plenty of land to grow crops and farm animals, it could sustain the entire world if it had to. The problem is fucks like Mugabe, he decided that white people shouldn't own farms, took them all away and gave them to black people who didn't have a clue what to do. There's also the fact they keep killing each other, makes progress towards anything kinda hard.

[Eon]

Ezra, certainly.

Backward religions - they are still clinging to devout catholicism. And Pope Palpatine will not allow them to use birth control methods which would alleviate their birth rate issues AND combat HIV (two of the major problems facing the continent).

Backward cultures - they still cling to a tribal organisation. The tribal organisation is wrecking their political institutions as officials are elected by their tribe and then expected to serve its interests whilst in office. A major source of bribes and corruption. And three words for you Female Genital Mutilation - how much more backward would you like?

Backward political structures - strongarm dictatorships, tribally controlled elections Some parts of Africa are muslim and adhere to Sharia Law, I believe - which as applied today should be considered an offence against all right thinking people.

These were the ideas I had in mind.

[Savok]

Catholicism also involves not having sex with anyone and everyone nearby. And yes, I too was shocked when they chose a Catholic to be the next Catholic pope.

Other points are more or less accurate.

[Eon]

Like I said - it's backward and fatally harming their culture if applied in an orthodox manner.

Or do you think that Western Catholics practice abstinence?

[Savok]

Not with their spouses. If they'll violate that then condoms really aren't a problem for them.

[Paltry]

right on savok

I heard this one yesterday, hope you like it...

Africa is like a tire fire, all we can do is grab a beer and watch it burn

[Eon]

What about all the unmarried ones? You can continue to advise them not to have sex if you like, but personally I'll take my relationship advice off of someone that's actually had one recently.

[Paltry]

wow your a god damned prick eon

[Eon]

God damned? Only if you're a Catholic.

And how many girlfriends do YOU think Pope Palpatine's had recently? Or do you think I'm saying that to Savok? Either way, take a quick spelling and grammar primer and then brush up on the use of Caps.

And then FOAD.

[Paltry]

wow high five

[Savok]

If they don't use condoms on the basis of belief, neither will they have sex outside of marrige. If they have sex outside of marrige, that they won't use a condom has nothing to do with the pope and is simply a conveinient excuse.

Letting Africa burn in an age where we are easily capable of wiping out our entire race is a really stupid idea. Poverty and desperation breed extremism, why do you think we're fixing up the Middle East?

[Paltry]

yea i wasnt exactly serious, i just thought it was a funny analogy

btw very good point savok, eon aint got sheeeeeeit

[retsudo]

If they don't use condoms on the basis of belief, neither will they have sex outside of marrige. If they have sex outside of marrige, that they won't use a condom has nothing to do with the pope and is simply a conveinient excuse.

Letting Africa burn in an age where we are easily capable of wiping out our entire race is a really stupid idea. Poverty and desperation breed extremism, why do you think we're fixing up the Middle East?
This is quite possibly the most ignorant shite I have read in this topic yet.

[Savok]

For super secret reasons?

[Paltry]

hahahahahaha

[retsudo]

The kind of credulous religious twit who cannot see the glaring problems in what was posted will also ignore any attempts to explain basic logic and reason to them, while anyone with a functioning brain will already see the problems ... so there isn't a lot of point trying to enlighten the mentally ill amongst us.

[president_fred]

I too was shocked when they chose a Catholic to be the next Catholic pope.

I know I was, hell I was rooting for mr.T.

[Paltry]

Oh i get it retsudo, your so fucking smart that you dont even need to use your brain

how convenient

[retsudo]

If you don't understand it, I could explain it in one syllable words for you

[Paltry]

i got two one syllable words for you

blow

me

[Savok]

The kind of credulous religious twit who cannot see the glaring problems in what was posted will also ignore any attempts to explain basic logic and reason to them, while anyone with a functioning brain will already see the problems ... so there isn't a lot of point trying to enlighten the mentally ill amongst us.
Actually I'm not at all religious, hell I don't even like the Catholic church and can barely stand being around them. But if you're going to have a go at them, at least do it properly.

[Paltry]

blow

me

[Eon]

Fandango, there is a village of idiots somewhere out there who are missing their idiot. Perhaps you could stop failing to contribute anything meaningful to this thread and pick a wall to sit on and drool?

Savok, you're clearly missing the point here. No use of condoms is an ordininance prohibiting people from doing something that they don't really want to do anyway - taking a responsible attitude to sex is harder and more expensive than not doing so. A policy of abstinence is as much use as ordering the tide not to come in. It will come in anyway, although it might pretend to be embarassed about doing so later, and then claim that the beach led it astray and should be burned for witchcraft.

Abstinence is a great personal choice but a lousy policy decision. In addition the Catholic church has claimed (in Africa) that condoms actually CAUSE Aids. That crosses the line from poor governance to criminal action IMHO.

[Savok]

I wasn't aware the Catholic church ran Africa. If it does well that just proves my point of invasion then placing most of the continent under administration.

[Eon]

Come ON Savok - I refuse to believe that you are so naive! The church doesn't run the country, but it affects the communities through bottom up influence.

I'm sure you're aware of the more devout nature of African society compared to European or even American?

As for invasion - whilst a return to Colonial Administration would certainly cause an almost immediate reversal of many of the negative trends in Africa today, you are not going to get any support for a continent wide invasion right now. It would be difficult and expensive - in addition many of the countries you are talking about are UN members and Commonwealth members, with diplomatic ties to powerful Western nations. It would be a mess.

[Savok]

If they're that devout then they aren't having sex with everyone, we're going in circles.

I'm bored, I'll make the argument for you, it affects availibility. Well what are the anti-AIDs agencies doing? If they aren't passing out condoms they are failing everyone. When a man won't put on a condom because it's against his religion then has sex with 5 women, he is lying, he's also lazy and/or an idiot.

Of course there's all manner of blockages for simply taking over, though you'll find the Commonwealth finds countries like Zimbabwe a cancer in Africa rather then a brother, I'm Australian don't forget, our PM spearheaded the diplomatic attack on Mugabe when he first started his insanity.

Now the UN, they are the enemy in this, they show their colours by rewarding Africa's greatest madmen with positions and praise. Not only that, but every instance where they "help" they make things worse. Simply put they need to be destroyed. Luckily we can avoid that as they're doing a fine job of that themselves.

So all that leaves is money and time. We have two choices, spend loads of money until the end of time, or spend a shit load all at once and fix the damn problem once and for all. Time, well time will always be an issue.

[Eon]

Well, people tend to be far more devout when it proscribes them from doing something they don't want to do.

Look at Medieval Europe - for example. It was a hotbed of neighbours wife covetting, yet people tended to burn other people for the crime of disagreements of small points of scripture. Were they devout? Devout enough to kill people about it. Devout enough to drag themselves all the way to the Middle East to fight. But NOT devout enough to keep it in their pants.

So perhaps it's a little more complex than you're claiming?

I think, over invasion, that the bottom line is that if we can't convince a local country to care then we're not going to be able to bust in with troops. Of course, some countries would be easier to convince than others - Sierra Leone frantically clings to its status as a British Overseas Protectorate, and petitioned recently to become a colony again. Few other countries have such clear vision.

[Paltry]

didnt mean to offend you eon, your horrible condescending nature threw me off

I kinda thought this was meaningful, ill repost it for you big guy

It is safe to say that Africa is in a Dark Age, as Europe was 1400 years ago. Hunger, disease, illiteracy, and war were rampant after the fall of the Roman Empire. There was one thing that saved Europe, and that was time. There was no one to give the Britons aid packages, there was no one sending medicine to the French. Time and, unfortunately, war and famine and death sorted Europe out. And even with this Europe rose from the ashes of the Roman Empire to become the eminent cultural and political power in the World. All it took was time.

Now we live in a time and place where we can ease the pain of this Dark Age in Africa. The 21st century is very different from the 11th, we have the means to deliver food and cancel debt... but will that really help? For the past 200 thousand years of human existence time, Mother Nature, Gaia, god, whatever, has been the cure for hardship. I know this is a tired metaphor but here goes...

The lodge pole pine's pinecones cannot seed unless they are heated by fire. For these trees to grow there must first be a wild fire. I like this example, it shows that death is part of nature, and even in death there is life. Perhaps this is how mankind works, to some it’s a scary thought but to me it’s almost comforting. No matter how bad things get, in time, they will heal themselves. I’m not saying we should sit back and idly watch 1/3 of our population die. I’m saying its almost pompous, at least overly optimistic, to think that a bunch of rock stars, hell, even the politicians at the g8 summit can fix only what time can.

i didnt get any response the first time, care to take a whack at it


Look at Medieval Europe - for example. It was a hotbed of neighbours wife covetting, yet people tended to burn other people for the crime of disagreements of small points of scripture. Were they devout? Devout enough to kill people about it. Devout enough to drag themselves all the way to the Middle East to fight. But NOT devout enough to keep it in their pants.

what the hell are you talking about? In the middle ages you married your wife and made babies with her, you didnt make babies with half the women in the hamlet. Sure there were whore houses and all that fun stuff but there was a huge social taboo associated with affairs. One was ashamed to have an affair, bastard children were almost second class citizens. Your full of shit.

And as for Savok, your a madman. Invading Africa to fix it. Sure thats what every soldier in the American/English/French/Spanish whatever army is just itching to do. Get killed for some starving africans. Our nation (maybe it was just our pres at the time) didnt have the resolve to finish the somalian conflict, do you really think we could do that across an entire continent.

They gotta sort all this out for themselves.

[Eon]

Yes you did Fandango, and you meant to do so again. I don't mind that - since I know I can be an arrogant bastard - then again you haven't given me a single reason to care about your opinion of me, so there we go. Anyway - onto the points you raised.

Adultery was the sport of the nobility in the Middle Ages - and Bastards were incredibly common. For gods sake, why do you act so certain about things you clearly don't know that much about. If Bastardy was so uncommon, why would it carry such a social stigma - the answer is that it wasn't uncommon, it happened frequently enough for social behaviours to evolve ensuring that legitimate heirs inherited and were preferentially treated. Why would they actually invent a heraldic device for bastards? William the Conqueror was called William the Bastard before he took the throne of England.

I agree with you about invasion, actually. It's a nonsense solution. I don't know if we actually have the manpower to do it, to be honest. Invading a whole country and keeping it under occupation is HARD - unless you find a way to make it WANT to be occupied. Like the British Raj - we controlled the whole subcontinent of India/Pakistan with something like 200,000 people. Putting British troops in every village would have been impossible.

Regarding your statement about aid - I agree. We can offer no more than palliative measures. If we continue to try and feed Africa then we doom them to living off our handouts for so long as the underlying causes remain unaddressed. The problem with the current climate is that people keep telling us that whilst we can give all the aid we want we aren't allowed to insist on any meaningful attempts by Africans to resolve the underlying concerns themselves - that's interference. And any attempt to do so ourselves is Colonialist Imperialism.

Which, as you've pointed out, is bullshit. Because one day we'll have something that will distract us from Africa (say we devote our resources to space colonisation or full scale genetic manipulation or Cold Fusion - something that will actually help US for a change) and the death toll will be made artificially high due to all the people who live on Western handouts. 90% of the population could well collapse. Perhaps more. It's certainly happened before on a smaller scale. The Mayan's, the Polynesians, the Anasazi Indians, the Indus Valley people. At one point there was supposedly civilisation in central Africa - yet this had mostly vanished by the time that Frazier wrote Golden Bough.

Mother nature is entirely capable of bouncing back in Africa, as soon as the landuse atrocities cease. Of course there may well be no Africans left alive by then, since they seem to lack the collective will to save themselves. We have to decide how we feel about that and act accordingly. I don't mind if we decide to try and save them, and I don't much mind if we DON'T frankly. Africa is a long way away, and I have no cultural, personal or family ties to the whole continent - except that an ancestor served in Kenya once.

I'd just rather we stopped pretending to save them when we aren't.

[Paltry]

1) adultery- we are not talking about the lords or nobility of Africa, we are talking about the poorest of the poor. We agree on the social stigma towards bastards, which of course would have been even greater among the lower classes. That social stigma is not present in Africa. Ever heard "it takes a village"? It takes a village because they dont know who the father is.

2) actually... thats all i disagree with. here here eon

see here we have a man who knows how to look at history

[Savok]

What sets Africa apart from the European Dark Ages is guns and trucks. The destructive potential of a single is way higher then it was back then. Progress has already happened in Africa, but then someone comes and blows it up or pulls it down and we're back to square one. Modern technology has tainted Africa to the point that everyone has to pretty much die first before it can get better (and lacking of human life).

I never said my solution was workable, I'm saying it's what needs to be done to fix the place.

And remember, it's in our interest, poverty and desperation breed extremism. When the Middle East is fixed up the terrorist cells won't be able to hide too well there, they'll move to Africa with funding from anti-west tyrants who get a kick out of killing people. What do you think will happen then?

[splatstick]

Stalin thought letting people starve to death was good population control too.

If you want to be in the Stalin Camp, be my guest. You'll find me with the HUMANS.

Just as a side note, I have russian friends who swear Stalin was the best thing to happen to Russia since... ever. They've been living in America for the past decade or so... always take the propaganda from both sides with a grain of salt.

As a sidenote, I've seen it mentioned that there is enough food in the world for no one to starve. This is true, in a sense. What I mean by that is even if we could transport it to the people that need it, it would go bad without a fleet of refridgerated airliners that simply don't exist. It's not really as easy as it sounds, but I applaud the celebrities that at the very least pretend they care and Mr. Gates who obviously is concerned about this.

[Eon]

Well, yes and no. In theory if we make everyone rich then everyone will be satisfied and nobody will have to fight over anything.

In practice people are complete fuckwits who will fight to the death for just that little bit more STUFF that they think they deserve more than the other guy.

If we ennoble Africa then they'll turn into ANOTHER group of people we need to threaten with utter annihilation in order for a quiet life. Right now all we need to do is threaten to go away.

[Shodan2020]

http://normanborlaug.org/

This man, through his breakthroughs in agricultural engineering, has actually created crops that are genetically altered to thrive in the environments of poverty stricken nations. He's won the Nobel Prize and numerous other awards in his battle against hunger.

He was featured in an episode of "Penn and Teller's Bullshit!" called "Eat this!". I suggest you all watch it. That's good TV.

[splatstick]

I like Socialism. Socialism, anyone?

[Savok]

Well, yes and no. In theory if we make everyone rich then everyone will be satisfied and nobody will have to fight over anything.

In practice people are complete fuckwits who will fight to the death for just that little bit more STUFF that they think they deserve more than the other guy.

If we ennoble Africa then they'll turn into ANOTHER group of people we need to threaten with utter annihilation in order for a quiet life. Right now all we need to do is threaten to go away.

Which is why you have a 30 year enforced peace, after which they won't be so prone to violence as they'll have something to lose. Like I said, never said it was workable.

Western world is doing quite well for itself I thought, we haven't invaded each other in years, even if we should invade France simply on principle. Besides, even if they turn into another Europe, they'll be too busy abusing each other to bother anyone else.