The Lawsuit of the Rings

[Evil Avatar]

According to The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/27/business/media/27movie.html?ex=1277524800&en=c2478a16f91a8555&ei=5090&partner=securitas&emc=rss), Director Peter Jackson is suing New Line Cinema for as much as $100 Million.

In his lawsuit, Mr. Jackson claimed that New Line committed fraud in its handling of the revenues generated by 2001's "The Fellowship of the Ring," and as a result, he was underpaid by millions.

The suit does not specify a damage award. But in an interview last week, his lawyers said that, after New Line applied its contract interpretation from "Fellowship" to the other two movies, Mr. Jackson was underpaid by as much as $100 million for the trilogy.

Lawsuits in Hollywood are as common as hobbits in Middle Earth. What makes Mr. Jackson's suit draw such widespread interest here, other than his clout in the industry and the amount at stake, is one specific allegation about New Line's behavior. The suit charges that the company used pre-emptive bidding (meaning a process closed to external parties) rather than open bidding for subsidiary rights to such things as "Lord of the Rings" books, DVD's and merchandise. Therefore, New Line received far less than market value for these rights, the suit says.This is kind of pathetic when you think about it... Jackson has received over $200 Million from the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Just how much money is enough?

[Evil Avatar]

Keep in mind also that Jackson isn't saying, "I wasn't paid what I am owed." he is saying, "The process they used to license out merchandise didn't bring me in as much as I thought it could have."

Those are two totally different things.

[pomeroy]

Honestly, who cares? How does this come close to affecting me?

[Evil Avatar]

Honestly, who cares? How does this come close to affecting me?

I think I put this one in the "Point and laugh." category. I linked the article because I'm kind of astounded that people who have hundreds of millions of dollars are complaining that it isn't enough, but I figured other people might be interested because of the whole "Lord of the Rings was a great film." thing.

[thFOOL]

Or maybe he's just saying "New Line cooked the books so I get less money, and since I can afford to take them on I'm going to see if I can stop this from happening to other directors as well."

After all, if this case goes to court, precedents will be set. If he just settles out of court then I'll definitely chalk it up to greed.

[Jadbalja]

While it's true that he doesn't need more money, he's probably correct that those rights would have made more money if bidding for them had been open, rather than restricted to subsidiaries of New Line Cinema. Sure, the movie division of New Line Cinema shares in his loss, but the overall company gains greater profits directly at Jackson's expense (because their subsidiary paid less for the rights than it probably would have if the process had been open).

There's no "might have" involved here. There's no way New Line's toy subsidiary paid as much or more for the rights than they carefully calculated that they would have had they had to bid against other companies.

[51|RandoM]

The dollar amount is inconsequential.

If this was a game designer who claimed that EA games had defrauded him of $50k, you guys would be burning EA in effigy, again.

Try not to let the disdain you feel for large amounts of money---which curiously enough you do not enjoy yourself---from coloring your opinions of what is right and wrong.

[bradlay]

I don't care if you're a multi millionaire already, if someone owes you several million dollars you try to get it. But thank you Evil for once again letting us know who you're morally superior to.

[Justin_McElroy]

If I was PJ, my whole defense would be showing the LOTR trilogy to the judge, then doing the Truffle shuffle and chanting "Aren't they the bomb? Aren't they the bomb?" until the judge gave in.

[Somefool]

If this is money he earned that a loophole screwed him out of, then you should support his right to sue for what is his. If he is being petty just to try to weasel more cash out of the situation, then screw 'em.

[DeadPixel]

This is a case of principal here. Where do you draw the line of too much money or not enough money? If he feels like he's been ripped off, he can go after the company, it's completely his choice.

To say he is greedy is plain jealousy.

[Syrinx]

This is kind of pathetic when you think about it... Jackson has received over $200 Million from the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Just how much money is enough?

If he can use that money to make future projects, I'd say it's pretty important.

[Redline]

You're a real dick sometimes EA. You'd only have to engage an extra neuron to relize that this is not about having 'enough', it's about being treated fairly and according to your contract.

[Paltry]

Theres not much more for me to add to this discussion... New Line used some creative book keeping to screw the man over

[Evil Avatar]

But thank you Evil for once again letting us know who you're morally superior to.

You're welcome. It is a long list, but I'll keep you informed.

[Evil Avatar]

You're a real dick sometimes EA. You'd only have to engage an extra neuron to relize that this is not about having 'enough', it's about being treated fairly and according to your contract.

Go read the article again. He was treated fairly, he was treated according to his contract. He just doesn't like the way the licenses were handed out (something a director really doesn't have a say in) because it didn't get him as much money as it could have.

Do you really think he would win this one in court? When he got exactly what he was owed? No, this is one of those "settle out of court for $$$" things.

[jBusy]

This is kind of pathetic when you think about it... Jackson has received over $200 Million from the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Just how much money is enough?

That is never a good line of logic to use in an argument. For instance, what about the $4 Billion that newline made? Why should they not just pay Jackson what he wants?

I read the article and it makes a good point of how vertical stacking affects royalties. Let's say that Warner Bros. sold the license to make LOTR toys to it's toy department for $10 million when they could have gotten $100 million if they auctioned it. Royalties are then paid on $10 million, but since everything is internal to the company, Warner Bros basically gets $90 million without having to pay royalties on it.

The numbers may be a bit extreme, but you get the point.

[Rafer]

Why would a studio offer the director of The Frighteners 20% of the gross as payment? Couldn't they have just offered 3 mil a picture take it or leave it? Like the guy deserves it but I'm surprised he was able to get such a sweet deal. Did he renegotiate after the first one made a ton of money or something?

[GrinR]

The only person who should decide how much money is "enough" should be the person getting the money. The moment you start limiting that, you submit your worth to other people's estimations - and that's the ticket-holders line to motherfucking communism.

[Redline]

Go read the article again. He was treated fairly, he was treated according to his contract. He just doesn't like the way the licenses were handed out (something a director really doesn't have a say in) because it didn't get him as much money as it could have.

Do you really think he would win this one in court? When he got exactly what he was owed? No, this is one of those "settle out of court for $$$" things.

I was under the impression that it hadn't been sorted out yet. You know, IN A COURT. Unless you have seen the contract, I suggest you stop taking the moral high ground and make yourself a nice big cup of shut the fuck up, sit back and relax.

[TrackZero]

Honestly, who cares? How does this come close to affecting me?

Well, I'm assuming Peter has a plan for that kind of money. Assuming he gets the 100 million in this lawsuit, that means he came away with 300 million dollars from these movies. That's the kind of cash a filmmaker dreams about, since he can start his own studio just like Lucas and Speilburg before him. If that's the case, that does impact you, since he'll be making (quite damn likely) some great movies (where he gets full artistic control) that way.

[Ernst_Jager]

Anyone that will bend over the MPAA or RIAA and give them back what they so love to give the little guy is okay in my book. Sure $200 million is alot of money but if he is intitled to recieve $300 million then it is New Line that is being greddy.

[KNOTE]

He gave nearly 10 years of his life to create the films, which some giant entertainment corporations profited greatly from. I don't see what's wrong with getting the amount you agreed upon in writing with the film's distributors and lisencees. It doesn't matter if it's 1 dollar or 100 million, why would you concede anything when it's money you earned? Still scratching my head over you opinion, Evil.

[Wyrm]

It all comes down to basic rights. If you're right, and he is actually just suing for more money because of some technicality, then he's as much a moron as any other money grubbing hollywood stereotype. But, if he has actually been wronged, he has the right to do what he's doing, morale or not. Perhaps he does want to open his own studio, I'm all for him collecting some more doe.

[Bushido]

Ya but whats PJ done for us lately? King -Kong OMFG -lame ass, it will flop PJ will never work again end of story.

[Damion S]

There sure seems to be a lot of animosity for Jackson, considering New Line was circling the bowl before PJ took a $274 million investment, and turned it into $2 billion (and counting) in returns. Here's a quote from an 'unnamed source' in the article.
"Peter Jackson is an incredible filmmaker who did the impossible on 'Lord of the Rings,' " this lawyer said. "But there's a certain piggishness involved here. New Line already gave him enough money to rebuild Baghdad, but it's still not enough for him."
Aside from the general jerkiness of calling him 'piggish', one could easily turn it around and say that Peter Jackson gave them 1.6 billion dollars, and it's still not enough for them.

[Wyrm]

Ya but whats PJ done for us lately? King -Kong OMFG -lame ass, it will flop PJ will never work again end of story.

Your extensive knowledge of the movie industry coupled with your intelligent insult of King Kong lead me to believe that you could be mentally retarded.

He could make 10 of the shittiest movies that have ever been shat and he would still get another directing job from some studio.

You want examples? Try Uwe Boll. How the fuck that guy is still getting work is beyond me, but he most definitely is. He currently has like 5 projects in the works and all of them are video game movies..

[Dirty Harry]

"UWE BOLL KILLED THE VIDEOGAME STAR............"
sing it to queen, video killed the radio star.

[splatstick]

Ya but whats PJ done for us lately? King -Kong OMFG -lame ass, it will flop PJ will never work again end of story.

He did fucking Dead Alive. Fuck you, the man deserves all the credit he has and then some.
Plus you might want to watch a movie before you give it shit.

[Royal Fool]

I personally hope Peter Jackson wins this one.

[kickmybum]

"Lawsuits in Hollywood are as common as hobbits in Middle Earth."

According to the books, Hobbits are quite rare in Middle Earth. No one outside of the Shire region even know of their existance. YAY! CHALK ONE UP FOR THE NERDS!! Can I get a woot?

Anyways, I know for a fact that many major studios do their closed license swindle trick to pocket much much more of the royalties from the people who actually "worked" on the film and PJ seems to be the only person that's doing something about it.

[Deadend]

Give PJ more money, that way... he will want to work with New Line again, and thus... they make more money, as I am sure there are many studios out there who would LOOOVE to work with PJ.

[MosBen]

Video Killed The Radio Star is by the Buggles, not Queen.

I think what Evil might have been getting at is that it's just hard to feel sorry for millionaires. Sure Jackson might be due this money, or maybe New Line is right, but it's still a bunch of rich people squabling amongst themselves over how many more millions of dollars they should get. I don't have any animosty towards them, but I'm not going to feel sorry for or root for either of them because I just can't muster the attention to care about the trials and tribulations of people that never need to work ever again.

[Evil Avatar]

Give PJ more money, that way... he will want to work with New Line again, and thus... they make more money, as I am sure there are many studios out there who would LOOOVE to work with PJ.

From the article,

"Mr. Jackson, who is directing a remake of "King Kong" for Universal Pictures with a budget of $150 million that includes a $20 million advance to Mr. Jackson to be applied against his share of gross revenue"

He is already working with another studio on King Kong and who knows which studio has the rights to The Hobbit.

[Evil Avatar]

"Lawsuits in Hollywood are as common as hobbits in Middle Earth."

According to the books, Hobbits are quite rare in Middle Earth. No one outside of the Shire region even know of their existance. YAY! CHALK ONE UP FOR THE NERDS!! Can I get a woot?

Woot. Oomph, there is is.

[Smithersnz]

The dollar amount is inconsequential.


Man, I don't know what planet you're living on, but $100 mill is not inconsequential. I mean, even if he gave it all to charity, it's still 100 MILLION DOLLARS!

[TrackZero]

Woot. Oomph, there is is.

Is it wrong that I want to say "LOUDER" after that?

[Kamalot]

"UWE BOLL KILLED THE VIDEOGAME STAR............"
sing it to queen, video killed the radio star.
Queen didn't sing Video Killed the Radio Star.

:(

[carneconcarne]

Evil, let's put it this way. Say one of your shitty little Westerns took off, and you and your publishing company stood to make a considerable amount of money from a right-wing conservative cowboy action figure. Then your publishing company sells the rights to a friend to produce the figures for 10 bucks, when they could have easily sold it for as much as 100 bucks! you get your 50 percent cut of the deal, a whopping 5 dollars, while the company who bought the cheap rights are making a mint. Your mint, and it's Andes.

Now, we all know Peter Jackson is a big fatty, and what big fatty can resist a delicious Andes mint? I hope I have helped elucidate this issue.

[jwbxx]

Guys, guys, you got it all wrong. He needs all the money he can get so when King Kong fails he has enough money left to buy a gun and kill himself.

[B_Money]

Video Killed The Radio Star is by the Buggles, not Queen.

I think what Evil might have been getting at is that it's just hard to feel sorry for millionaires. Sure Jackson might be due this money, or maybe New Line is right, but it's still a bunch of rich people squabling amongst themselves over how many more millions of dollars they should get. I don't have any animosty towards them, but I'm not going to feel sorry for or root for either of them because I just can't muster the attention to care about the trials and tribulations of people that never need to work ever again.

How come when millionares squabble with billionares over money, it's the milliionaires who are protrayed as greedy?

Anyways, from what I can gather from the suit, it's clear to me that New Line undersold the merchandising rights to itself, thus keeping the grosses down while still making just as much money.

[Reanimated]

If he can use that money to make future projects, I'd say it's pretty important.




That'd be my take. The more money Pete has to make movies, the better, I say.

[MosBen]

Oh don't get me wrong, as far as I'm concerned they're all in the same camp. I don't care either way; they're both rich as all hell. The reason lots of people are latching onto Jackson is that it's easier to hate a person or people than a substanceless company. It's the same reason why people are always against sports players and not the even richer teams, why they generally side against labor and with management. Individuals asking for more always looks greedier than some faceless corporation saying no.

For me though, when it gets to the point where all parties in an argument are rich beyond my wildest dreams I just stop caring much about the outcome. Give me a family (barely) living on minimum wage and I'll care; give me a director worth over $200 million fighting with a multi-billion dollar company and I tune out.

[jeffool]

But thank you Evil for once again letting us know who you're morally superior to.You're welcome. It is a long list, but I'll keep you informed.Sure, I'll probably end up on Peter Jackson's side in this, but 'this' is why I come here. It's a fun place. :D


So, why don't we just give the money to me? I could make some fancy-shmancy games with $100mill.

[Chagrinful]

Why would a studio offer the director of The Frighteners 20% of the gross as payment? Couldn't they have just offered 3 mil a picture take it or leave it? Like the guy deserves it but I'm surprised he was able to get such a sweet deal. Did he renegotiate after the first one made a ton of money or something?

YES! Finally somebody remembers that this shmuck Jackson has only made shit movies before making the LOTR trilogy, he ruined ALOT of fight scenes, he killed alot of drama that they could have had, the fight scenes were poorly done, no zeal and no primal excitment, which was seen in Braveheart and even lesser movies have more exciting fight sequences. Jackson is lucky he got as much as he did, he just needs to fuck off and drink his milk.

[mister_slim]

If this was a game designer who claimed that EA games had defrauded him of $50k, you guys would be burning EA in effigy, again.
Actually, I seem to remember EA doing this to Chris Crawford back in the '90s. They used his game as a freebie promo to goose sales on one of their internal games, and thus didn't have to pay him any royalties (okay, maybe a quarter of a cent or so) on those copies. And this was what DC did to piss off Alan Moore, accounting some merchandise (pins, I think) as a promotional item so they wouldn't have to pay Moore and the artist any subsidiary cash.

[TrackZero]

YES! Finally somebody remembers that this shmuck Jackson has only made shit movies before making the LOTR trilogy, he ruined ALOT of fight scenes, he killed alot of drama that they could have had, the fight scenes were poorly done, no zeal and no primal excitment, which was seen in Braveheart and even lesser movies have more exciting fight sequences. Jackson is lucky he got as much as he did, he just needs to fuck off and drink his milk.

Hey, I liked the Frighteners!

[Talanvor]

So... let me get this straight. Peter Jackson is saying he made $100 million less than he should have from the LotR trilogy. New Line made $4 billion from the movies and licensing.

...

Are we seriously even discussing who's getting screwed here?

And does it even MATTER if you liked the LotR movies, or any other movie Peter Jackon has been involved with?! I thought they were superb, some of the finest movies I've even seen, but that is besides the point! The fact remains they have pulled in that much money.

If New Line is innocent of anything illegal then they should be able to open their books up and prove it.

Think about it this way. If your employer just decided to take 30% of your paycheck and put it in his pocket, would you be happy with that?

[51|RandoM]

Man, I don't know what planet you're living on, but $100 mill is not inconsequential. I mean, even if he gave it all to charity, it's still 100 MILLION DOLLARS!

It is inconsequential when determining the justness of his cause. I didn't say it was inconsequential in and of itself. Reading comprehension is your friend, practice. :-)

[Evil Avatar]

Evil, let's put it this way. Say one of your shitty little Westerns took off, and you and your publishing company stood to make a considerable amount of money from a right-wing conservative cowboy action figure. Then your publishing company sells the rights to a friend to produce the figures for 10 bucks, when they could have easily sold it for as much as 100 bucks! you get your 50 percent cut of the deal, a whopping 5 dollars, while the company who bought the cheap rights are making a mint. Your mint, and it's Andes.

Wow. One of the first intelligent posts on the subject.

The difference here is that Peter Jackson doesn't OWN the rights to Lord of the Rings. This isn't like someone taking one of HIS stories and making action figures from the story and selling the rights on the cheap.

This would be more like if I wrote a western about someone elses character - a character I don't own the rights to like The Lone Ranger, and the story sold well and then the people who OWNED the rights to The Lone Ranger and who PAID me to write the story then went and said, "Hey, in addition to paying you to write the story we are going to give you a percentage of the sales of the T-Shirts and Action Figures." and then they DID give me a percentage of those sales, but later it turned out that they sold the rights to make those figures for less than I think they were worth.

Now do you see the difference? In your story I would be bitching about what someone did with my property and in my story (and Peter Jackson's), I would be bitching about what someone else does with their properties that I don't own and really was not entitled to a percentage of in the first place.

[TrackZero]

Wow. One of the first intelligent posts on the subject.

The difference here is that Peter Jackson doesn't OWN the rights to Lord of the Rings. This isn't like someone taking one of HIS stories and making action figures from the story and selling the rights on the cheap.

This would be more like if I wrote a western about someone elses character - a character I don't own the rights to like The Lone Ranger, and the story sold well and then the people who OWNED the rights to The Lone Ranger and who PAID me to write the story then went and said, "Hey, in addition to paying you to write the story we are going to give you a percentage of the sales of the T-Shirts and Action Figures." and then they DID give me a percentage of those sales, but later it turned out that they sold the rights to make those figures for less than I think they were worth.

Now do you see the difference? In your story I would be bitching about what someone did with my property and in my story (and Peter Jackson's), I would be bitching about what someone else does with their properties that I don't own and really was not entitled to a percentage of in the first place.

I see you're points here, and they're valid, except you're forgetting some things.

Peter was offered a contract to direct LOTR right? As part of that contract he was also offered royalties on t-shirts, toys and what have you. It wasn't like he just did one thing before the other, it was a package deal at the same time. The directing the movie and getting the royalties are directly connected, not seperate things.

It's like you writing a book, the publisher offers you 5% royalties on it's sales, but then goes and sells the book for $1 through some promotional scheme with another company that allows them to still make a tidy profit, but fucks you into only making a fraction of the normal price on the thing you created for them as part of said contract. You're simply being screwed over through a technicality. Contracts are always made to some extent in "good faith" that you're not trying to trick the other person to take the shirt off their back, which is what PJ is trying to prove they did in court is all.

Whether or not he's entitled to it remains up to the judge however, I'm not about to say. I'm simply not studied in the lawbooks on these types of contractual obligations and I don't think anyone here probably is either. So our opinions are all just that, though I think in this case PJ at least has some legs to stand on to make this an interesting court case (to see the outcome/precident that's set).

[bobbler]

Keep in mind also that Jackson isn't saying, "I wasn't paid what I am owed." he is saying, "The process they used to license out merchandise didn't bring me in as much as I thought it could have."

Those are two totally different things.

Well...

While I don't necessarily agree with Jackson's reasoning, you have to realize that jackson pretty much is responsible for LOTR coming back with a bang. (personally I think he should be happy he was a part of that movie and his name is essentially gold for several future movies to come)

Jackson did a wonderful job with the movies -- I'm not sure who else could have done it so well. Those toys and merchandise are selling because the movies were such hits and were well done. The director is very much responsible (or at least a big factor) for the success of the film -- look at all those Uwe Boll movies -- He'll turn anything into shit, Midas style.

Without Jackson those toys/merchandise, arguably, wouldn't sell or have any reason to sell.

LOTR is a great story in itself, but if a company put out LOTR toys/shirts/cups/etc out before the LOTR movies were in existance, they wouldn't sell nearly the volume they would/do after the movies.

[Fonz]

Ok, whatever peter jackson is doing, hes going to get black balled by every movie studio now, He not only sued EA games for 50 million dollars for the LOTR games, but now hes suing new line. I dont think he realizes that hes already earned 300 millioin off this franchise now hes going for 100 more? Yes he did do a good job with LOTR, but any other director of equal or higher calibre and equal budget could of done if not the same job but even better. You dont make enemies in the industry.

[Thenetcase]

I think I put this one in the "Point and laugh." category. I linked the article because I'm kind of astounded that people who have hundreds of millions of dollars are complaining that it isn't enough, but I figured other people might be interested because of the whole "Lord of the Rings was a great film." thing.


Actually this attitude is asinine. I'm a personal friend of the guy who wrote the Men in Black comic books which the movies were directly taken from. He got paid less than 1/100th of a percent of the movie royalties, even though he basically wrote the material the script was taken from. That kind of treatment is wrong and this is what Mr. Jackson is trying to prove.
The fact that he is going to be black balled doesn't bother him because he doesn't need the money and has obviously made that clear. He wants to see morality prevail (think about the guise of the movie he wrote). He wants to see other people get treated fair, like my frind, Lowel Cunningham from the MIB series.

Peace,
-TNC-

[eatme]

According to
This is kind of pathetic when you think about it... Jackson has received over $200 Million from the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Just how much money is enough?

This is kind of pathetic when you think about it. New Line Cinema has received over $2 billion from the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Just how much money is enough?

Or is fraud okay, as long it's against rich people?

[Furious Wang]

New Line has made billions of dollars from the LoTR movies. Just how much money is enough for them? Take it to court. Let the system decide how much the man is owed and have New Line pay it. Great country we have here when you can do things like that.