US Supreme Court Slams Grokerster and De-regulators

[Klade]

Saw this first on Blues (http://www.bluesnews.com). The US Supreme Court today ruled against peer to peer file sharing networks, saying that they can be held liable for the actions of their users. This is a big win the Music and Movie industry (and software as it relates to this site). Here's your quote (http://money.cnn.com/2005/06/27/technology/broadband_ruling/index.htm?cnn=yes) .

...the court ruled that software companies can be held liable for copyright infringement when individuals use their technology to download songs and movies illegally.

In a related case the US Supreme Court also ruled that cable companies should not be forced to open up their lines to competitors. Here's your quote (http://money.cnn.com/2005/06/27/technology/broadband_ruling/index.htm?cnn=yes) on that.

At issue in the case, FCC v. Brand X, was whether cable operators should be required under federal law to lease their cable lines to competitors, much the way local phone companies were forced years ago to open up their lines to long-distance phone companies.

Wow I was following both these cases and I have to say I'm not happy with either result. I was hoping that peer to peer would win since the situation seemed so similar to the prior Sony case. And I was hoping cable companies would open up their lines so I could see cheaper prices.

[Kelegacy]

Goddamnit.

I would add a few more curses to cover the minimum character allotment, but I wont. But you can be assured i'm saying them aloud.

[GrinR]

Thank god piracy has finally been defeated. I can't wait for media prices to fall.

[TrackZero]

Thank god piracy has finally been defeated. I can't wait for media prices to fall.

Nice.

This is again a pointless venture though, as it will just lead to the development of anonymous P2P networks (which granted, won't be as efficient as bittorrent). It's obvious that the legal administration just isn't "getting it".

[Heretic Machine]

Soo... the Supreme Court has once again proven theirselves to be out-of-touch fucktards? That's good.

[Chiron]

Yes, I'm sure the "billions" lost through piracy will translate into savings for the consumer. Score another point for big business.

[netcraazzy]

...the court ruled that software companies can be held liable for copyright infringement when individuals use their technology to download songs and movies illegally.

So I guess they better sue Microsoft, I'm sure that 99% of the people who download music and movies illegally are using windows!

[eatme]

Here's the money quote from the Grokster case, btw:

"We hold that one who distributes a device with the object of promoting its use to infringe copyright, as shown by the clear expression or other affirmative steps taken to foster infringement, is liable for the resulting acts of infringement by third parties." -- Souter

Why is that important? Peer to peer itself, or any technology that simply has people using it illegally, isn't necessary liable for those users' deeds.

You are only liable for your users' illegal use of your product if you "actively and knowingly" promote that illegal use.

So, for example, many BitTorrent clients may be perfectly fine, if they're marketed towards the legitimate uses. If someone launches a BitTorrent searcher called "war3zmonkey2000", though, they're going to be in a world of hurt.

[bKangy]

You are only liable for your users' illegal use of your product if you "actively and knowingly" promote that illegal use.

So, for example, many BitTorrent clients may be perfectly fine, if they're marketed towards the legitimate uses. If someone launches a BitTorrent searcher called "war3zmonkey2000", though, they're going to be in a world of hurt.

Nah, they're going to interpret "promotion" as loosely as they possibly can - every court case is practically $ in the bank, now. Promoting it could mean, well, putting illegal torrents on a front page, or easily available. They've got the upper hand now, they're not going to stop.

[GrinR]

Anyone know which justices voted for what and what the dissenting opinions were? I can't google it atm

[Varsity]

Yes, I'm sure the "billions" lost through piracy will translate into savings for the consumer. Score another point for big business.
It only takes one company to start. ;)

Promoting it could mean, well, putting illegal torrents on a front page, or easily available.
What on earth is so unjust about that?

[MongolHunter]

Well most p2p software creaters such as BT etc. are safe as they tend to have common sense disclaimers saying they do not in any way endorse pirating etc.

[ezekiel61]

this doesn't affect my "Adult Movie" downloads does it? hehe

[zipR]

Don't blame me, I didn't vote for them.

Oh wait -- no one votes for them.

[GrinR]

Don't blame me, I didn't vote for them.

Oh wait -- no one votes for them.

This is why I want to check who decided for whom. A lot of ignorant people assumed the recent "eminent domain" decision was a conservative one. (wrong) So I wanted to see if I had yet another dumbass detector.

zipR, I'm not speaking about you - I know you're pointing out that they are not elected officials.

[lowlevel]

As much as I'd like to think that opening up cable systems to smaller/other ISPs would lower prices, I'm not sure that it's fair to expect that.

I work for a smallish ISP, serving 15,000+ clients with dial-up, DSL, T1+, wireless, and some private cable systems, and I've not seen anything to lead me to believe that prices would drop dramatically. In our situation, SBC charges us the same amount (and sometimes more) to lease a DSL circuit than the price that they sell their service directly to the customer. Great, the phone system is open and we can offer DSL, but they charge a customer $14.95 a month for service when they "wholesale" out a DSL circuit to us for $20+/month.

Sometimes they get away with this by bundling services and offsetting their loss on the DSL with their overpriced phone services packages, and other times it's a promotional rate and after that's over, the customer ends up paying $44.95+/mo for the blance of their 1 year contract that they unknowingly agreed to after the promo period is up.

But no ... I'm not bitter/jaded/disillusioned ... and I'm sure that an open cable system will lead us into a new era of super-cheap broadband.

*sigh*

/rant

[hideouslywrinkled]

Here's a link (http://news.com.com/Text+of+Supreme+Court+ruling+on+Grokster/2009-1030_3-5764451.html?tag=nl) to the text of the ruling on CNET.

It's not the end of the world. Just the beginning of a lot of expensive lawsuits.

[Intruder]

What have we learned from the Supreme Court in the past weeks???

It is okay for the government to take away the private property of it's citizens,

But it is illegal for people to swap music and movies.

[yutt]

I use Microsoft Internet Explorer running on Microsoft Windows XP Professional to download all of my pirated materials. The MPAA and RIAA need to be aware Microsoft is promoting this.

I also use IE with Microsoft Windows Media Player to look at movies of people having sex with animals. Can't believe Microsoft supports that!

[GrinR]

Seriously, you people are missing the upside. Now, pirating will be a thing of the past! I can't believe you're not excited about lower prices for movies, music, and games.

I'll miss not being able to download any fucking thing I want at any time over my 6Mb DSL line. Score one for Sony and SCOTUS!

[XenonCJ]

Anyone know which justices voted for what and what the dissenting opinions were? I can't google it atmThere was no dissent as this decision was unanimous. Which frankly amazes the hell out of me since VCR use was approved only like 15 or so years ago with opposite reasoning.

[Zurik]

Whatever your point was, you lost me at sex with animals.

[XenonCJ]

Seriously, you people are missing the upside. Now, pirating will be a thing of the past! I can't believe you're not excited about lower prices for movies, music, and games.

I'll miss not being able to download any fucking thing I want at any time over my 6Mb DSL line. Score one for Sony and SCOTUS!I will assume you are kidding here. Prices would actually go up if piracy was eliminated. Pirated copies of software are blackmarket competition. Eliminate competition in any form, and prices will naturally go up.

[Heretic Machine]

Fortuently, with these eminent domain laws, and bullshit like this... I'm really losing any moral stance against piracy. That can only be a good thing.

[DiBiddilyBop]

Oh damn, now pirating things is illegal. I'm sure that there will be no way to pirate anything from now on. I'm sure this will change everything, including the vast majority of servers located outside the US.

Seriously people, Napster was shut down years ago and that only gave way to better, more efficient, ways of pirating data. This ruling won't change much of anything.

[eatme]

I use Microsoft Internet Explorer running on Microsoft Windows XP Professional to download all of my pirated materials. The MPAA and RIAA need to be aware Microsoft is promoting this.

I also use IE with Microsoft Windows Media Player to look at movies of people having sex with animals. Can't believe Microsoft supports that!

I couldn't see why anyone was shocked (or even upset) at this decision, until I realized (from posts like the above) that no one had actually read anything about the decision.

First of all, it still has to be proven that Grokster "knowingly and actively" encourages copyright infringement. SCOTUS simply said that if they do, they can be held liable.

So, sure-- this could be used against Microsoft as well, if you could prove in court that they are knowingly and actively encouraging you to illegally download copyrighted software using IE. Since they don't, that's going to be pretty hard to prove.

SCOTUS explicity mentions in the decision that this doesn't trump "substantial non-infringing use" either-- Betamax still stands. Why does Betamax stand? Because they were promoting time-shifting-- recording for playback television shows that you were already legally receiving. Now, if time-shifting were illegal, Betamax would've been fucked.

[XenonCJ]

Oh damn, now pirating things is illegal. I'm sure that there will be no way to pirate anything from now on. I'm sure this will change everything, including the vast majority of servers located outside the US.

Seriously people, Napster was shut down years ago and that only gave way to better, more efficient, ways of pirating data. This ruling won't change much of anything.Yeah I assume we will soon start seeing ultra-annonymous bittorrent-like programs, created by annonymous sources with auto-populated randomly created seeds and such... Piracy is like the mythological Hydra, cut off 1 head and 2 more powerful heads grow in its place.

[Kelegacy]

we live in a non-progressive world. The old fucks on the Supreme Court are out of touch as usual. Open cable would have been great for the future of technology.

Dolts.

[yutt]

I couldn't see why anyone was shocked (or even upset) at this decision, until I realized (from posts like the above) that no one had actually read anything about the decision.
Part of the problem was there is no link above directly to any article regarding the Grokster v. MGM ruling. Another is the Yahoo article is very sensational and has little information.

I am capable of reading, I was merely commenting on the only source I had at hand. I didn't sit through the hearings as you apparently did.
SCOTUS explicity mentions in the decision that this doesn't trump "substantial non-infringing use" either-- Betamax still stands.
Where are you reading more on the ruling? The Yahoo article mentions nothing about "substantial non-infringing use."

[Deadend]

I hate the old people.

They are still in charge, fuck them and their fucking 1960s.

If those out of touch with the world fuckheads keep going, my generation is going to spend all of it's time trying to fix their dumbass laws, but only make things worse.

This is just disapointing, but I saw it coming.

Besides, the the rule is that knowingly and activly encouraged pirating, that is WAAAY OPEN.

You could say they encouraged by discoruaging..

"You better not use our network to download that movie coming out next week!" Is that encouraging? or "You better not go hunting for over 4 million songs!" face it, a good lawyer can spin anything they say to defend themselfs to make it sound bad.

They are fucked, and you just dont want to see it.

They also want to leave the networks in control of a few companies, instead of deregulating and allowing for competition, as for some reason, comcast charges $3 extra every month, for the past year, they keep raising the price.

Fuck those old corpses in charge of the law, fuck the assholes who put them there, and fuck the new assholes who are going to replace them, and double fucking fuck the assholes putting them there.

I hope that was enough swearing to be a cool kid now.

[eatme]

This article is decent:

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story.asp?guid=%7B422A196B-3F55-4D81-A1DC-D89340A5325E%7D&siteid=google

Here's a decent blog post on it:

http://blogs.mcs.gac.edu/index.php?p=81

But the place I got a lot of my links for all the recent decisions is this SCOTUS blog:

http://www.scotusblog.com/movabletype/

The Yahoo article sucks, agreed. There are numerous "sky is falling" articles on this ruling, because they want to get hits.

[XxSATANxX]

Wow this changes nothing! The Genie is out of the bottle.

True story:

As part of my job I sell big box retail. I was in the office of a major buyer talking about the SONY PSP. I mentioned that hackers had cracked the UMD format. Pirate copies had started appearing on the web of UMD movies. He said "GREAT" Kinda shocked I asked why he thought it was great. "Piracy always drives sales!" Well at that instant I realized the whole P2P thing was going to be alright.

Seems the converging market place is driving market forces to the conclusion that P2P is in fact a market place with great potential. Give it time and those forces will sort out an answer we all can live with.

[ElectricMonk]

Wow this changes nothing! The Genie is out of the bottle.

True story:

As part of my job I sell big box retail. I was in the office of a major buyer talking about the SONY PSP. I mentioned that hackers had cracked the UMD format. Pirate copies had started appearing on the web of UMD movies. He said "GREAT" Kinda shocked I asked why he thought it was great. "Piracy always drives sales!" Well at that instant I realized the whole P2P thing was going to be alright.


I don't think he meant it was great for software sales, but more great for psp sales. More people are going to buy a psp if they think they can get stuff for free.

I for one don't care much about grokster. How many people actually downloaded grokster so they could share their legally created files with their friends? If you're going to share music there are places like purevolume that work so much better. If you want to share files you can setup a tripod account and your grandma can get it without accidentally downloading beastiality.

The next evolution of file sharing seems to be bittorrent. It's got many legal uses too.

Also for the sharing cable lines, it's not really necessary. There is satellite tv/internet avaliable, as well as dsl. Also there are experiments with high speed internet via your gas and electricity lines. Competition is still fine in that aspect.

[serion]

To anyone who thinks a decline in piracy will mean savings for the ordinary consumer:

Wake up and smell the coffee! Corporations don't care about you!
Any excuse can be used to jack prices; look at the oil industry.
If the price goes up 5 cents a barrel suddenly the price at the pump is up a dime. And when the per barrel goes back down, the pump price stays the same.
You're fucked. Any excuse to raise the price and they'll take it. Maybe CDs and DVDs will cost 5 dollars more for "legal fees" to prosecute all these pirates under this precedent. And when every single pirate is busted, the price will stay there.

Try not to be so naive in the future

[Rone]

Speaking of naivete, you completely missed that those people were using sarcasm.

[B_Money]

Maybe I'd care more if p2p networks weren't filled with low quality audio files and viruses. I'm willing to pay money for songs and movies that I like. The descision to not force cable companies to open up thier networks sucks, though.

[mister_slim]

It only takes one company to start. ;)

I know. A good place to start lowering prices would be when new technology, like those fancy CD-thingies or that wacko iTunes store, reduces media production and distribution costs.

[Karmakaze]

You all just like saying SCROTUS... SCROTUS SCROTUS SCROTUS...

Oh, it's SCOTUS? Hmm. That's not as fun.

Guess I'll stick to Grokerster.

Seriously, though, this isn't an affront to piracy (which I think has been illegal, since, say... the DAWN OF TIME). It's an affront to tech companies and our ability to innovate without the man breathing down our backs.

[OSX]

Your Supreme Court had a busy day today. One look at fark tells me that.

[Bloged]

Here (http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/27jun20051200/www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/04pdf/04-480.pdf) you can find, as far as I know, the ruling of the Supreme Court!

Held: One who distributes a device with the object of promoting its use to infringe copyright, as shown by clear expression or other affirmative steps taken to foster infringement, going beyond mere distribution with knowledge of third-party action, is liable for the resulting acts of infringement by third parties using the device, regardless of the device’s lawful uses.

And Grokster did help users with downloaden copyrighted material:

Respondents have sometimes learned about the infringement directly when users have e-mailed questions regarding copyrighted works, and respondents have replied with guidance. Respondents are not merely passive recipients of information about infringement.

So, as long as you play stupid and don't help them out with downloading, you will be pretty safe?? Or Should I read the whole package of 55 pages?!

Grtz,

Bloged

[Citizen Philip]

Canada you R teh ro><or!

[Kelegacy]

Canada you R teh ro><or!

No shit, and I dont even live there! If it wasnt so cold, i'd become an expatriate in a heartbeat. My Maine winters are bad enough.

[TrackZero]

No shit, and I dont even live there! If it wasnt so cold, i'd become an expatriate in a heartbeat. My Maine winters are bad enough.

Heh, it's funny, I moved from Northern Ontario to Southern about 10 years back and thought it was crazy-hot (I moved south by about 1000 miles). Only took me 2 years to adjust. Same thing when I moved from the country into the city (always add 5 degrees from the "heat dome" effect + air congestion), took 2 years to get used to. Really the winter is something you adjust to the same as anywhere else. It only lasts 1/4 of the year, the four seasons are still in effect just like elsewhere in the U.S.. It's all just people's perception.

Hell, in my mind California must be a blazing inferno. I mean, how the fuck do you not get snow in winter?