id's New Engine Unveiled

[bapenguin]

Joystiq (http://www.joystiq.com/2007/06/11/id-software-debuts-new-engine-at-apple-conference/) has the skinny on id's (http://www.idsoftware.com) new 3D engine which was recently unveiled at a recent Apple Conference. Carmack introduced the technology, saying, "So the last couple of years at id we've been working in secrecy on next-gen tech and a game for it ... this is the first time we're showing anything we've done on it publicly." He describes the demo happening on screen: "What we've got here is the entire world with unique textures, 20GB of textures covering this track. They can go in and look at the world and, say, change the color of the mountaintop, or carve their name into the rock. They can change as much as they want on surfaces with no impact on the game."

Carmack finished off the tease saying, "We're going to be showing on a Mac, PC, PS3, and Xbox at E3, we'll have another Mac announcement at E3."

There's a few pics of the impressive engine at the Joystiq Link (http://www.joystiq.com/2007/06/11/id-software-debuts-new-engine-at-apple-conference/).

ooooh. I hope they announce what the IP is at E3.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Id: "Please, please, PLEASE stop buying the Unreal engine!"

[Montolio]

id Tech 5? I had no idea they were using Epic's engine naming convention +1 haha.

I'm an old-school id Software fanboy, so this is very interesting news to me. I'm looking forward to what they'll share at the new E3.

[Norse]

Too bad id can't make games anymore. Let's hope someone good buys a license.

[F3nyx]

Uh, I'm probably just missing something, but where does one store 20GB of textures?

[Micasa]

Doesn't your PC have 25GB of RAM?

[Citizen Philip]

It's nice to see a developer working on accessibility, by designing an engine with everything in mind instead of a specific segment. Whether or not it proves to be successful, only time will tell.

[jeffool]

Uh, I'm probably just missing something, but where does one store 20GB of textures?Um, I don't think he's saying that the engine will require games have 20 GB of textures to run... And besides, with 1TB harddrives on the market...

/edit: Did he mean at once? I thought he meant 'in the entire game world', as in, the entire game. Not those screens?

[Grimmjow]

alot of joke/sarcasm post here

[BlackPete]

Prediction of when they announce their IP:

OMG! You will be able to throw the Hammer of Thor at your enemies and wipe them all out in a huge shockwave! And it will all be rendered with realistic 128-bit colors with dynamic bump-mapping!

6 months later...

Oh yeah we cut the hammer... but there will still be 128-bit colors with dynamic bump-mapping!

[YoungAlCapone]

Looks pretty, except the screenshot with the guy waving one of those novelty giant fingers, why can't people adjust thier stance if they are standing on an incline? I think Crysis has that.

Plus, 20 gigs of textures seems a little, I don't know.... excessive, I DO NOT want to do 20 gigs worth of install for nice textures. Shit, the 10 gigs of Condemened bothered me enough, 8 fucking gigs of textures. There had better be some damn fine compression software they are working with over at id.

[Norse]

Wait...no Wii version?

[noxa]

"20GB of textures" could mean 500MB of static resources and 19.5GB of procedurally generated textures. Look at RoboBlitz.

[The Continental]

Ultra textures?

[TheFlyingOrc]

Wait...no Wii version?
It is not beneficial for either Id of Epic to have the Wii be successful, as you do not need state of the art graphics programs to be able to develop for it.

[NeoSuplex]

Uh, I'm probably just missing something, but where does one store 20GB of textures?

That's what I'm wondering.. is he insinuating that he can have what would normally be 20GB worth of textures loaded into the game and being displayed at the same time? Cause that'd be one BAD ASS engine.

Otherwise I have no idea what the hell he's talking about.
I'm talking TROLL level bad ass.

[Norse]

It is not beneficial for either Id of Epic to have the Wii be successful, as you do not need state of the art graphics programs to be able to develop for it.

Yeah, you hardly need graphics at all it seems. Anyway Carmack said he was working on some cellphone game earlier. Maybe we'll see Wii port of that.

[jeffool]

Yeah, you hardly need graphics at all it seems. Anyway Carmack said he was working on some cellphone game earlier. Maybe we'll see Wii port of that.I don't know exactly how 'much' of the work he did on it, but apparently he did contribute to the Doom mobile phone game, which was well worth the cash. (And oddly great on battery life. Wonder if that's something they took into account or if that's just how it is with turn-based games.)

[Doctor Setebos]

Looks like a racing game. Doom Kart anyone?

[Citizen Philip]

That's what I'm wondering.. is he insinuating that he can have what would normally be 20GB worth of textures loaded into the game and being displayed at the same time? Cause that'd be one BAD ASS engine.

Otherwise I have no idea what the hell he's talking about.
I'm talking TROLL level bad ass.

Maybe it's quantum programming, you know, like Schrödinger's cat.

[jeffool]

Looks like a racing game. Doom Kart anyone?QRally for the mother fucking win, my friend!

[Varsity]

Realistic heightmap terrain, at last. The second screen is particularly impressive.

I'm assuming you can add detail to the bare rock faces somehow?

That's what I'm wondering.. is he insinuating that he can have what would normally be 20GB worth of textures loaded into the game and being displayed at the same time? Cause that'd be one BAD ASS engine.
It's 20GB for the entire world. Only the bit you're looking at is in memory.

What size screen would you need to have to display 20GB worth of pixels? :p

[jeffool]

That's what I'm wondering.. is he insinuating that he can have what would normally be 20GB worth of textures loaded into the game and being displayed at the same time? Cause that'd be one BAD ASS engine.

Otherwise I have no idea what the hell he's talking about.
I'm talking TROLL level bad ass.You just made me realize that one day data access will be so fast that draw rates will be such a bottleneck that it will be faster to access each layer of data and draw a completely rendered pixel before moving on to the next one...
http://dump.jeffool.com/blewmymind.jpg

[CptTripps]

Um, I don't think he's saying that the engine will require games have 20 GB of textures to run... And besides, with 1TB harddrives on the market...

/edit: Did he mean at once? I thought he meant 'in the entire game world', as in, the entire game. Not those screens?

I think they were saying it's the equivalent to 20GB of textures by using some new Carmack magic, could be wrong so don't quote me. Anyway, Carmack is not dumb, he knows what he is up against and he will make a completely kickass engine.

And since when has ID used anything from Unreal? Were they not the there first. This will be the first time that Unreal has had a more technical engine before ID. I know people may not have liked D3, but the engine and technology were far ahead of most others at the time. I mean FarCry was fantastic, but come on, if people are going to complain about plastic looking characters, FarCry wins the manequin covered in baby oil look hands down x100 but nobody bitches about them.

Anyway,

Some games from 2004 (Doom3 was released then) - I liked all of them, but just for comparison to see where the devs were at during that time. Doom 3 takes the graphics crown and HL2 conquers with it's all around greatness.

Doom3
http://www.gearlive.com/blogimages/greatgame/doom31.jpg

UT2K4
http://www.happypenguin.org/images/ut2004demo.jpg

FarCry
http://www.igniq.com/reviews/FarCry12.JPG

HL2
http://cerebralsynergy.com/e107_images/newspost_images/hl2EliAndAlyx.jpg

Theif DS
http://www.armchairempire.com/images/Reviews/XBox/thief-deadly-shadows/thief-deadly-shadows-2.jpg

IMO, Carmack was always ahead of his time. This will be the first time he is late to the game, but I think he will bring some very positive/innovative aspects with him. He may not be a games designer, but bashing on his engine writing genious is ignorant.

[silv]

No, it's a 20GB texture. The technique is called Megatexturing, it's present in Quake Wars, except is taken up to 11 so to speak in their next engine.

You can find some snippets here: http://www.gamerwithin.com/?view=article&article=1319&cat=2

"So when Splash Damage was starting on, really early with Enemy Territory: QUAKE Wars, they were looking at some of these different ways to render the outdoor scenes with different blends and things like that. And one of my early suggestions to them was that they consider looking at an approach where you just use one monumentally large texture, and that turned out to be 32,000 by 32,000. And I – rather then doing it by the conventional way that you would approach something like this (i.e. – chopping up the geometry into different pieces and mapping different textures on to there and incrementally swapping them for low res versus high res versions), just let them treat one uniform geometry mesh and have this effectively unbounded texture side on there, and use a more complicated fragment program to go ahead and pick out exactly what should be on there, just as if the graphics hardware and the system really did support such a huge texture."

[YoungAlCapone]

No, it's a 20GB texture. The technique is called Megatexturing, it's present in Quake Wars, except is taken up to 11 so to speak in their next engine.

You can find some snippets here: http://www.gamerwithin.com/?view=article&article=1319&cat=2

"So when Splash Damage was starting on, really early with Enemy Territory: QUAKE Wars, they were looking at some of these different ways to render the outdoor scenes with different blends and things like that. And one of my early suggestions to them was that they consider looking at an approach where you just use one monumentally large texture, and that turned out to be 32,000 by 32,000. And I – rather then doing it by the conventional way that you would approach something like this (i.e. – chopping up the geometry into different pieces and mapping different textures on to there and incrementally swapping them for low res versus high res versions), just let them treat one uniform geometry mesh and have this effectively unbounded texture side on there, and use a more complicated fragment program to go ahead and pick out exactly what should be on there, just as if the graphics hardware and the system really did support such a huge texture."

Ok, so a single 20 gig texture for the world to achieve this level of detail. How do they plan on implementing something like that?

Oh yeah, and it has been entirely too long since I heard the word MEGATEXTURE!!!

[Disgustipated]

*snip snip comparison pictures*

Um, why are you doing a corridor shot of FarCry? Get a pic of FarCry outside and compare that to Doom 3 and tell me which is better.

http://www.hardocp.com/images/articles/1098809904DJ7a6BZMfd_4_12_l.jpg

[alleycatsphinx]

Basically he streams the textures off the disk. You can have a 20 gb texture but only load the parts you need.

Mountains far away only load what's needed for their pixels at that range, close up objects load way more detail because they are filling the screen.

But not all of the high res source has to be loaded into videoram, just the bits that are needed to maximize detail. This technology will scale very well across different resolutions (1080p vs 640 480 vs 1600 x 1200 etc).

He's essentially implemented the next version of mip mapping (a fundamental 3d technology), and all games will use this sort of technology soon. It's called clip texturing.

What does this mean to you as the gamer? Not much. Slightly more detailed scenes, lots more unique detail.

What's this mean to the game artist? I dunno - huge texture maps and more straightforward mapping implementation?

I suspect more will be revealed in time.

[GigaFuzz]

Impressive enough, but from those screens it looks pretty damn similar to the Doom 3 engine. It has that same 'plasticky' look as well.

Has anything other than Quake 4 and Quake Wars used the Doom 3 engine?

[YoungAlCapone]

Has anything other than Quake 4 and Quake Wars used the Doom 3 engine?

Prey.... and Doom 3 just to be an ass.

[mos]

Um, why are you doing a corridor shot of FarCry? Get a pic of FarCry outside and compare that to Doom 3 and tell me which is better.

http://www.hardocp.com/images/articles/1098809904DJ7a6BZMfd_4_12_l.jpg
While this image is much better than the corridor shot of FarCry, I still think the Doom 3 image looks better.

[GigaFuzz]

Prey.... and Doom 3 just to be an ass.

D'oh! I forgot about Prey. And you can take your Doom 3 comment and shove it up your smartarse. :p

[jeffool]

Impressive enough, but from those screens it looks pretty damn similar to the Doom 3 engine. It has that same 'plasticky' look as well.

Has anything other than Quake 4 and Quake Wars used the Doom 3 engine?Think of it like the lighting/shadowing in Doom 3. Sure now more games do lights in a similar manner, but he does things before most everyone else, and achieves graphics (at the very least) comparable to everyone else at the time.

It's not that John Carmack is ahead of the curve that everyone else is on, it's that he's on a different curve entirely that, despite his early location on, has a greater eventual height that the previous curve.

[KingGorilla]

Looking at those old screens, why is it that Far Cry really shows its age, especially in the character models?

[Varsity]

Because he chose a crap shot. Same for HL2. In reality both games look loads better.

Think of it like the lighting/shadowing in Doom 3. Sure now more games do lights in a similar, but he did it first and and achieved graphics (at the very least) comparable to everyone else at the time.First, and too early. The lighting crippled that engine.

[jeffool]

Um, why are you doing a corridor shot of FarCry? Get a pic of FarCry outside and compare that to Doom 3 and tell me which is better.Maybe because he was addressing the talk of plastic-y character models in Doom 3, whose player models looked far better than those in FarCry, despite any shine.

And the problem rendering skin? It's rather transparent.

[Hellstorm]

It is not beneficial for either Id of Epic to have the Wii be successful, as you do not need state of the art graphics programs to be able to develop for it.

then they are in trouble once the Wii has the market lead userbase which looks to happen, if sales are maintained, by October.

Sides, as for id engine, yeah 20 gigs of brown textures!!!

[YoungAlCapone]

Sides, as for id engine, yeah 20 gigs of brown textures!!!

Never been in a desert huh?

I mean seriously, this is just a shit complaint, the setting used calls for lots of drab textures. This is like complaining that there are lots of nazis in a WWII game. Reminds me of all of the complaints about Stalker before it came out, that it was really drab, but like Stalker it uses textures that suit the setting and it is still incredibly detailed. Much more so in this case.

[the Jack]

Carmack, without the benefit of the PR people's filtering, often "slips" in public and forgets he's talking about the development hardware given to him by the Alpha Centaurians...

[Ancalagon]

When did they make Thief for the DS? /sarcasm

You chose a really bad Far Cry screenshot. Far Cry may not have been equal to Doom 3 in sheer graphics (ie enemy models and level detail) but the sheer scale of the island always impressed me, and the vegetation. Very ambitious project compared to Doom:

Doom3: "Hey guys lets make a corridor shooter with the best graphics ever!"
Far Cry: "Hey guys lets make a game where you walk around an island with vegetation and shoot people"

Dont get me wrong I really enjoyed Doom 3 for what it is, great atmosphere I thougth. But far cry was just more ambitious, even if its graphics were worse. /off topic

Lets hope ID makes a good game out of this new engine.

[Nate Graves]

Sides, as for id engine, yeah 20 gigs of brown textures!!!

Haven't you heard? The future is dark and/or brown.

[alleycatsphinx]

I'd like to see some new tech related to seamless unit/map/level streaming and cross server networking. We all know Carmack really wants to make the metaverse.

[GigaFuzz]

Haven't you heard? The future is dark and/or brown.

http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=224

The pic's a bit too big to embed in a post here.

[F3nyx]

Looking at those old screens, why is it that Far Cry really shows its age, especially in the character models?The Trigens were the worst-looking (not to mention most annoying) thing about Far Cry. Human models were about on par with Doom 3's.

[saulob]

I tought E3 was dead... what surprise

[CptTripps]

Um, why are you doing a corridor shot of FarCry? Get a pic of FarCry outside and compare that to Doom 3 and tell me which is better.

http://www.hardocp.com/images/articles/1098809904DJ7a6BZMfd_4_12_l.jpg

Ummm, at 1024x768 on a 6800GT I would say that looks "not so great". There is no deatil in the distance textures. If someone were to use the D3 engine and slap blobs in the background I think it would do ok also.

[CptTripps]

Because he chose a crap shot. Same for HL2. In reality both games look loads better.

Ok, so once again this is not a game argument as I personally liked HL2 better gameplay wise, this was me trying to prove a point that Carmack knows what the fuck he's doing for all the nay sayers. It seems some of you think I was saying "DOOM3 IS BETTER" and I never did.

With that said.... Far Cry?? Loads better? Get real, they had larger enviornments and lower quality textures, it's not rocket science. Plus let's put performance into the scenario. Far Cry did not run all that great, not bad, but far from smooth on high settings on my old 6800U (D3 ran smooth). I now have a pair of 7800GTX in SLI and tried turning up everything in Far Cry, even things from the CP (MSAA) at a simple 1280x1024... It chugged, decent engine, but not fantastic. People in 2007 are still using the HL2 and D3 engines to make games, I don't see them using the FC engine.

Once again, I chose an indoor shot to compare similar things. HL2 was a fantastic game that had many of the same features and.... lower rez textures so they could do large outdoor scenes. It's not like I scoured for the perfect D3 picture, I just grabbed the first one that wasn't too big and looked for pictures of a similar nature (indoor with a character in it). Personally I thought that HL2 picture was nice as the character design in that game was really really good and I always loved the eyes.

Anyway, 3 years later ET:QW is using the D3 engine. Someone said "make it work for outdoor enviornments John" and guess what, he said *megatexture* "No Problem". Here is a shot from ET:QW running on a now three year old engine with megatexture implemented, imo it schools many engines coming out today.

http://www.megagames.com/screenshots/images/prvqukwrsenmtrtry_l6.jpg

Anyway, I'm done here. People like to assume what your saying so they can argue with you instead of taking a post for what it's worth. I'm talking engines.

HL2 was the best all around implementation.
FC was a pretty game until you got inside. (ie catered to outdoors)
Doom3 was a catered to indoors engine that was perfect for it's job.

The Trigens were the worst-looking (not to mention most annoying) thing about Far Cry. Human models were about on par with Doom 3's. Pretty damn close, I think the use of lighting was more realistic in D3 and also less plastic looking, but for the most part they looked good in FC.

[Schnoogs]

Why at the apple conference?

Another Carmack beauty!!!

[Schnoogs]

Ummm, at 1024x768 on a 6800GT I would say that looks "not so great". There is no deatil in the distance textures. If someone were to use the D3 engine and slap blobs in the background I think it would do ok also.

You're fucking kidding me right...

At that point in time Far Crys environments were HEAD and SHOULDERS better than anything. Nothing was even remotely close.

[CptTripps]

You're fucking kidding me right...perfect evidence why you cant intelligently discuss graphics around here.

At that point in time Far Crys environments were HEAD and SHOULDERS better than anything. Nothing was even remotely close.

Your right, Head and Shoulders... Not even remotely close.
http://www.hardocp.com/images/articles/1098809904DJ7a6BZMfd_4_12_l.jpg
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2004/reviews/917867_20040622_screen005.jpg

[Schnoogs]

....

Thanks for proving my point for me :p

That looks like ass in comparison..

Low levels of foliage

low polygon terrain

water doesnt look nearly as real

skin texture couldnt be plainer

a shadow might be nice!

Nice draw distance...could it at least fake the presence of foliage using sprites??? :p
Need I go on?

[Schnoogs]

Next time post this...

http://files.turbosquid.com/Preview/Content_on_8_29_2001_21_01_11/island01.jpg3E4DA933-7E28-478D-9B4CE3E37C471069.jpgLarge.jpg

[CptTripps]

At that point in time Far Crys environments were HEAD and SHOULDERS better than anything. Nothing was even remotely close.

I never tried saying it was better, but your "head and shoulders - nothing remotely close" shit is stupid and you can offer nothing to prove it but instead make smartass comments.

Thanks for proving my point for me :p - Looks like your ability to talk out your ass is all you proved.

That looks like ass in comparison..

Low levels of foliage - In areas with low foliage, indeed there is less.
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000ZUGYK.01.PT02._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

low polygon terrain - Uh, hello FC.

water doesnt look nearly as real - why because it isn't blue? Looks fine to me.
http://www.webwombat.com.au/games/images/jotr-2.JPG

skin texture couldnt be plainer - 150 players online?

a shadow might be nice! - I'm sure they had the tech, once again, 150 online.

Nice draw distance...could it at least fake the presence of foliage using sprites??? :p - It shows foliage when there is foliage to show.
http://arstechnica.com/reviews/004/software/jointops/2-small.jpg
Need I go on? - Yes, it looks like you may have to.

I was defending Carmack for unwarranted comments and never said a bad thing about the other games until someone claimed how glorious they were. And I still didn't really say anything bad, just the truth, it was a great outdoor engine that ran a lil slow.

I can't wait to see what Carmack has coming, and I will say so if it sucks, but I will reserve my comments for when I see something other than a still blurry monitor capture.

Schnoogs, your dead to me.

[GodFather]

Prediction of when they announce their IP:

OMG! You will be able to throw the Hammer of Thor at your enemies and wipe them all out in a huge shockwave! And it will all be rendered with realistic 128-bit colors with dynamic bump-mapping!

6 months later...

Oh yeah we cut the hammer... but there will still be 128-bit colors with dynamic bump-mapping!


haha! You know whats funny? Is back in that day, there was Carmacks engine and thats it. Everyone else was years behind him with technology and 10 years later things are very different. He still makes great engines but id engines are competing with other companies and are by no means years ahead of anyone else.

I do miss the old days though. The days of plans and the pc community, it was a magic moment for gamers.

[CptTripps]

He still makes great engines but id engines are competing with other companies and are by no means years ahead of anyone else.

I do miss the old days though. The days of plans and the pc community, it was a magic moment for gamers.

Agreed, I think the UE3 is fantastic, I can't wait to see what Crysis will require to run and I'm pretty excited to see what Carmack is gonna do. Bethseda makes great engines (that run rough) but good god when are they going to figure out animation :)

[Schnoogs]

I never tried saying it was better, but your "head and shoulders - nothing remotely close" shit is stupid and you can offer nothing to prove it but instead make smartass comments.



You know what, fuck you schnoogs. I was defending Carmack for unwarranted comments and never said a bad thing about the other games until someone claimed how glorious they were. And I still didn't really say anything bad, just the truth, it was a great outdoor engine that ran a lil slow.

I can't wait to see what Carmack has coming, and I will say so if it sucks, but I will reserve my comments for when I see something other than a still blurry monitor capture.

None of those pics look nearly as good...give it up dude...Far Cry looks way better than those pics you posted.

In a conversation about graphics quality you look silly posting "150 players online". Are we talking about gameplay or networking? No...this is about graphics. :rolleyes:

[Shodan2020]

Joystiq (http://www.joystiq.com/2007/06/11/id-software-debuts-new-engine-at-apple-conference/) has the skinny on id's (http://www.idsoftware.com) new 3D engine which was recently unveiled at a recent Apple Conference.

There's a few pics of the impressive engine at the Joystiq Link (http://www.joystiq.com/2007/06/11/id-software-debuts-new-engine-at-apple-conference/).

ooooh. I hope they announce what the IP is at E3.


Uh oh... looks like DNF is going to be delayed for a few more years... again. ;)

[saulob]

Uh oh... looks like DNF is going to be delayed for a few more years... again. ;)

Oh Noessssssss ! :eek:

[CptTripps]

You're fucking kidding me right...

At that point in time Far Crys environments were HEAD and SHOULDERS better than anything. Nothing was even remotely close.


skin texture couldnt be plainer


In a conversation about graphics quality you look silly posting "150 players online". - Those 150 players are rendered using your graphics system, why you bring up netcode I have no idea. They reduced some effects to display more characters, is this not done on a normal basis depending on what you need to display? What happens when FC and it's skin texture and shadow gets 70+ people on screen? My guess is takes a dump.

You look silly talking about the skin texture in a coversation regarding outdoor enviorments. You were the one who decided to go off topic.

And I hate to tell you, Far Cry is better, but not by head and shoulders and they are remotely close. This was my point from the start but you are a troll and still have offered nothing but childish banter.

[Rirath]

I was rather hoping for something like deformable terrain by standard, or something more exciting than "20GB of textures!", frankly. Or perhaps totally destroyable structures. Guess that'll continue to be a pipe dream. I have to say, these screens really do nothing for me yet.

[Draft]

Apparently, the big draw of this engine is how it will ease the design->build->polish transition. Instead of designers being hampered by the eventual performance killing touches their artists will put in, they can just go fuck nuts, design whatever level they want, and every texture and poly the artist throws at it will be devoured by the engine. Pretty exciting shit, I think. Real next-gen stuff. It may only be comparable to Crysis or high end UE3 stuff graphically, but if it can be developed in 1/3rd of the time and run 3x smoother, then we're in for a treat.

[Schnoogs]

You look silly talking about the skin texture in a coversation regarding outdoor enviorments..

Yeah because the characters arm is inside :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Far Cry was in another league...deal with it (and read up on engines so you look like less of a noob)

[jeffbax]

Bickering aside, id rules, Carmack rules. I liked Doom 3 and Q4.

You can get a glimpse here: http://events.apple.com.edgesuite.net/d7625zs/event/ ~11:30 in.

[silv]

Far Cry was heavily optimized for outdoor areas. Indoors it couldn't hold a candle to D3 engine.

With some tweaks the D3 engine is still ticking along greatly. Look at ET:QW for some examples. That is at the core the D3 engine, while this new engine is a re-write.

[alleycatsphinx]

"Instead of designers being hampered by the eventual performance killing touches their artists will put in, they can just go fuck nuts, design whatever level they want, and every texture and poly the artist throws at it will be devoured by the engine."

Uhh. That's not how it works? Designers create a layout, maybe a blockmesh, and handle scripting, monster placement, etc... Artists get a budget and are generally not allowed to go over budget - also they are the one who manage fps that come from too many polys/shaders/etc. Designers optimize things like monsters and scripted objects. Mostly they get along. It's programmers who hate aritists and designers (all those people making useless "data"... =) )

Maybe you mean to say this engine offers greater design potential, but I don't see how it alleviates a conflict between art and design.

[fitbabits]

Here's the official press release - apologies for not posting it earlier:

id Software Debuts id Tech 5

Groundbreaking New Videogame Engine Previewed on a Mac

WWDC, San Francisco, June 11, 2007 – Today, id Software unveiled their never-before-seen next-generation game engine technology, id Tech 5™, running on a Mac at Apple's Worldwide Developers Conference. This revolutionary new technology will power the studio’s internally created new game property and will be available for licensing to third parties. Previous iterations of id technology have powered games with worldwide retail sales totaling more than $1 billion, cementing id’s status as the premier technology provider for the industry.

id Software's co-founder and technical director, John Carmack, demonstrated id Tech 5 during the keynote address and commented, “Since many developers at id have made the switch to the Mac for their personal use, we decided it was now time to bring our core game technology to OS X. After a rapid bring up of the codebase, we were delighted to find that the latest Macs are the fastest systems in our offices for some of the time consuming processing jobs and will be contributing to our development process in many useful ways.”

The new id rendering technology practically eliminates the texture memory constraints typically placed on artists and designers and allows for the unique customization of the entire game world at the pixel level, delivering virtually unlimited visual fidelity. Combined with a powerful new suite of tools designed specifically to facilitate and accelerate the content creation process, id Tech 5 will power games that contain vast outdoor landscapes that are completely unique to the horizon, yet have indoor environments with unprecedented artistic detail.

While shown for the very first time running in real time on a Mac, id Tech 5 additionally supports the Xbox 360 and Playstation3 console platforms as well as the PC, and will be available for licensing to developers and publishers interested in working with a truly next-generation rendering and game development solution. id Software will be showing id Tech 5 to interested developers and publishers by appointment only at the E3 Media & Business Summit from July 11 – 13, 2007 in Santa Monica, Calif. Companies interested in id Tech licensing information can visit www.idsoftware.com or email licensing@idsoftware.com with an E3 appointment request.

[Schnoogs]

"Instead of designers being hampered by the eventual performance killing touches their artists will put in, they can just go fuck nuts, design whatever level they want, and every texture and poly the artist throws at it will be devoured by the engine."

Uhh. That's not how it works? Designers create a layout, maybe a blockmesh, and handle scripting, monster placement, etc... Artists get a budget and are generally not allowed to go over budget - also they are the one who manage fps that come from too many polys/shaders/etc. Designers optimize things like monsters and scripted objects. Mostly they get along. It's programmers who hate aritists and designers (all those people making useless "data"... =) )

Maybe you mean to say this engine offers greater design potential, but I don't see how it alleviates a conflict between art and design.

I think he was trying to point out that with this new engine thats no longer a problem.

[Schnoogs]

Funny that the Apples would be faster seeing as they use the same hardware as PCs...I know this is an Apple conference but could id sell out anymore just to please the crowd and Steve Jobs?

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

Funny that the Apples would be faster seeing as they use the same hardware as PCs...I know this is an Apple conference but could id sell out anymore just to please the crowd and Steve Jobs?

Do you ever stop making stupid ass points that dont mean a damn thing to anyone but yourself?

About the engine... We dont really know shit about it other than "Carmack" so Ill wait for more information and previews before passing judgement.

Ive always liked good graphics, who doesnt, but I want to be able to interact with a game world instead of stare at it like a painting. I want to be able ot OPEN a god damn door, or bust its handle off if locked then open it. I wanna be able to pick up a rock, or any object and throw it at an enemy if Im out of ammo, shit let me throw my fucking gun. Slow down on the graphics, give me more interaction.

[Schnoogs]

Do you ever stop making stupid ass points that dont mean a damn thing to anyone but yourself.

Dumbass speak for "I didnt realize that both PCs and Macs use the same exact hardware so performance is pretty much a wash"

I think its safe to say that YOU were the only one that didnt know that so dont drag everyone else into your realm of platform ignorance

[DeathtollWRX]

I guess it's all about engines these days . What happend to them just making a game? Quake 4 and Doom 3 were both very dissappointing gameplay wise. Maybe they should just stick to online only games since they can't seem to get out of the find blue keycard phase. These tech demos are no good if the game based on them is simply not fun or innovative. I still have high hopes for Quake Wars but I won't be surprised if it is a buggy mess.

[Schnoogs]

I guess it's all about engines these days . What happend to them just making a game? Quake 4 and Doom 3 were both very dissappointing gameplay wise. Maybe they should just stick to online only games since they can't seem to get out of the find blue keycard phase. These tech demos are no good if the game based on them is simply not fun or innovative. I still have high hopes for Quake Wars but I won't be surprised if it is a buggy mess.

Technically they only made the engine for Quake 4. ;)

Otherwise we could credit them for HL and HL2!

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

Dumbass speak for "I didnt realize that both PCs and Macs use the same exact hardware so performance is pretty much a wash"

I think its safe to say that YOU were the only one that didnt know that so dont drag everyone else into your realm of platform ignorance

Fuck you, you pulled that assumption out of your ass you god damn imbecile.

Funny that the Apples would be faster seeing as they use the same hardware as PCs...I know this is an Apple conference but could id sell out anymore just to please the crowd and Steve Jobs?

This was the cause for my respone. You need to stop being so damn arrogant for no reason, stupid ass mother fucker.

[Schnoogs]

Childish crying

LMAO!!!!

I'm sure id got some "special" macs that feature futuristic PC hardware that somehow runs faster!

Here's a tip for you...less cussing...more counter arguments :rolleyes:

Now run along little child and let the grown ups talk...comeback when you have somethign to offer other than cussing

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

There is no counter argument for a moron like you that will always pull some magical bullshit out of his ass to prove that unicorns exist. Youre the one ranting about computer hardware and trying to insult me as if I was the one to bring it up...

Oh and if you want to talk about childish behaviour, who called who what first? Exactly.

[Schnoogs]

There is no counter argument for a moron like you that will always pull some magical bullshit out of his ass to prove that unicorns exist. Youre the one ranting about computer hardware and trying to insult me as if I was the one to bring it up...

Picks up ShiZuru...places him on my knee....explains to him that when you see a post that you dont understand the smart thing to do is move on or ask for clarification instead of dismissing it with childish insults.

Run along now.

[DeathtollWRX]

Technically they only made the engine for Quake 4. ;)

Otherwise we could credit them for HL and HL2!
Oh GOD NO!

I need to research on what games they actually made. Besides Commander Keen and Wolfenstein one.

[Schnoogs]

Oh GOD NO!

I need to research on what games they actually made. Besides Commander Keen and Wolfenstein one.

Heres a few

Commander Keen
Dangerous Dave
Catacombs
Hovertank
Wolfeinstein
Doom
Doom 2
Quake
Quake 2
Quake 3
Doom 3

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

Picks up ShiZuru...places him on my knee....explains to him that when you see a post that you dont understand the smart thing to do is move on or ask for clarification instead of dismissing it with childish insults.

Run along now.

See, you just dismiss what I said and resort to that bullshit again. Truth is, you are the child here.

[Schnoogs]

See, you just dismiss what I said and resort to that bullshit again. Truth is, you are the child here.

Still waiting for you to offer something other than cussing...until then go to your room :p

(shizuru storms off)

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

Wow you really must be retarded.

[Schnoogs]

Wow you really must be retarded.

For expecting a well thought out counter argument from the likes of you?

Why yes...that would make me retarded.

(shizuru...fuming mad....runs to his room and slams the door)

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

There is nothing to counter, what the hell...

[Schnoogs]

Remind me to install a padlock outside his bedroom door.

[Schnoogs]

I wonder if id this time around will use a 3rd party physics solution...Doom 3 was pretty weak in that department.

[Don Chichon]

Here's the first shaky cam video of Carmack's presentation : http://www.gametrailers.com/umwatcher.php?id=72333 .
That looks hot indeed, especially if, like he says in the presentation, it was put together in 10 days. If that's true, then I guess the main point of his technology is there : much less effort required to create something.

[Schnoogs]

Seeing it in motion makes it look even that much more amazing!

Wow!

[saulob]

Or grab it on .mov or .wmv

http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=20463&type=mov&pl=game

:)

[Zeal]

I think the business of building and licensing engines will become bigger than the games themselves.

This is where the money is now.

Edit: I also think that demonstration was really underwhelming.

[MacD]

Heh...Carmack talked about this engine when he talked about doing megatextures for ET:QW. Then he said he'd done MT purely for terrain, but that in his next engine he'd imp[lement the whole MT idea to everything; buildings, environment models (aka trees and shit) etc. Looks like this is it: Doom3+megatexture=ET:QW and ET:QW+mt on everything= id tech 5.

Shiny.

And, uh, Zeal...engines had been where the money is since...well, I guess since id licenced their Quake tech to Valve so they could make HL.

[Zeal]

I've never seen anything take off like the Unreal 3 engine, though. Then again, I personally say Halo still has the most solid game engine I've ever played.

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

I've never seen anything take off like the Unreal 3 engine, though. Then again, I personally say Halo still has the most solid game engine I've ever played.

Too bad Halo sucks as well as its engine. :eek:

[Don Chichon]

I've never seen anything take off like the Unreal 3 engine, though. Then again, I personally say Halo still has the most solid game engine I've ever played.Dude it really is time for you to put down the crack pipe...
I understand being passionate about a game or series but what you're saying here is just insane. Next time you're gonna tell us that Halo 2 Vista Edition is the best FPS on PC...

[Johan]

...he did contribute to the Doom mobile phone game, which was well worth the cash.

I own both Doom RPG and Orcs and Elves on my cellphone.

I enjoyed both of them.

[Zeal]

Last few pages alone. Suicidal ShiZuru in response to Schnoogs:

Do you ever stop making stupid ass points that dont mean a damn thing to anyone but yourself?
Fuck you, you pulled that assumption out of your ass you god damn imbecile.
See, you just dismiss what I said and resort to that bullshit again. Truth is, you are the child here.
Wow you really must be retarded.
There is nothing to counter, what the hell...
Too bad Halo sucks as well as its engine. :eek:
Please ban genuine trolls like this guy from the site.

They add nothing.

[F3nyx]

Shizuru may have been swearing more (people care?) but Schnoogs was being immensely stupid, so...

[Varsity]

HL2 was a fantastic game that had many of the same features and.... lower rez textures so they could do large outdoor scenes. It's not like I scoured for the perfect D3 picture, I just grabbed the first one that wasn't too big and looked for pictures of a similar nature (indoor with a character in it). Personally I thought that HL2 picture was nice as the character design in that game was really really good and I always loved the eyes.The HL2 pic was taken something like two years before the game came out, using old character models and untextured props. I mean just look at it. Try these two instead:

http://steamreview.org/external/d2_prison_030009_thumb.jpg (http://steamreview.org/external/d2_prison_030009.jpg) http://steamreview.org/external/coast_thumb.jpg (http://steamreview.org/external/coast.jpg)

They're cool shots because I only keep the best ones, but there's no touching up when it comes to fidelity.

Anyway, 3 years later ET:QW is using the D3 engine. Someone said "make it work for outdoor enviornments John" and guess what, he said *megatexture* "No Problem". Here is a shot from ET:QW running on a now three year old engine with megatexture implemented, imo it schools many engines coming out today.Splash Damage have already said that they've replaced so much code from the D3 engine that it's "unrecognisable". The quote is on Eurogamer somewhere.

Megatexture is certainly cool, though I'd want to know what it does to modders before I'd implemented it in any PC game I'm shipping.

[Schnoogs]

well, I guess since id licenced their Quake tech to Valve so they could make HL.

id licensed the original Doom engine as well.

[Schnoogs]

Shizuru may have been swearing more (people care?) but Schnoogs was being immensely stupid, so...

Your love obsession with me is getting a little weird...how many threads now are you gonna troll me in???

[Qoz]

Could some moderator please ban "Suicidal ShiZuru" for spewing his raging garbage all over the thread?

And you are right Zeal. The UE3 engine is really taking off compared to past engine-tech. Developers are spending less time on redoing the licensed engine-tech with this new generation of engines. Alot of game-delays are caused by engine-tech difficulties - making a game while you develop the engine is not optimal. Hopefully the future will bring more games faster.

The downside is that all games developed with a licensed engine probably will have the same look and feel (and possibilities and constraints).. Like with all the Doom3-engine titles.

[F3nyx]

Your love obsession with me is getting a little weird...how many threads now are you gonna troll me in???I think I've replied to you in two threads recently, which isn't much of a trend. But to answer your question: as many threads as I see you being a dick in.

[51|RandoM]

I think I've replied to you in two threads recently, which isn't much of a trend. But to answer your question: as many threads as I see you being a dick in.

That would be every thread he posts in. I really wish people would stop quoting him, as it greatly reduces the value of the ignore feature. This thread pretty much sucks anyways. I can't believe I read the entire thing just for the one or two good posts.

[Utils]

Here's the first shaky cam video of Carmack's presentation : http://www.gametrailers.com/umwatcher.php?id=72333 .
That looks hot indeed, especially if, like he says in the presentation, it was put together in 10 days. If that's true, then I guess the main point of his technology is there : much less effort required to create something.

He sounds like such a stereotypical nerd! I have a nerd voice too but damn, that's KING nerd.

[DarkDaY]

yummy, that looks ...yummy, sounds yummy too, now someone show me whats up with the project offset engine and the project offset game...

NOW! DAMIt

[CptTripps]

The HL2 pic was taken something like two years before the game came out, using old character models and untextured props. I mean just look at it. Try these two instead:

http://steamreview.org/external/d2_prison_030009_thumb.jpg (http://steamreview.org/external/d2_prison_030009.jpg) http://steamreview.org/external/coast_thumb.jpg (http://steamreview.org/external/coast.jpg)

They're cool shots because I only keep the best ones, but there's no touching up when it comes to fidelity.

Cool enough, don't get me wrong, HL2 was gorgeous and played amazing @ 1920x1200 on a 6800U mobile. But when getting up close on things, the textures are not all that high quality, they just have kick ass effects implemented really well which free's up tons of memory. I was never trying to diss HL2, I just threw up comparison shots of 2004 tech in defense of ID because they really did put out a kick ass "engine", the game itself was simply ok. As a matter of fact, I loved all those games I posted much more than Doom3, but I will still defend Carmacks genious for engine creation when nay sayers spout crap :)

[CptTripps]

I really wish people would stop quoting him, as it greatly reduces the value of the ignore feature.

You know, I've never used this feature before, but you just made a great call. A first for everything.

[CptTripps]

Here's the first shaky cam video of Carmack's presentation : http://www.gametrailers.com/umwatcher.php?id=72333 .
That looks hot indeed, especially if, like he says in the presentation, it was put together in 10 days. If that's true, then I guess the main point of his technology is there : much less effort required to create something.

Holy hot shit!! I hope this takes off as well as the UE3 tech, I would love to see many games using both these and the crysis engine in many games to come.

[Montolio]

Did Epic support the Mac platform beyond UE2? If not, I guess this helps id's cause as a engine technology licenser a little bit. I don't know if Epic has support for Mac in UE3 or if they're providing it in UE4 when it goes out the door.

I'm sure I'm wrong about all this, but I just don't remember ever reading anything for Mac after UE2.

[jeffbax]

Did Epic support the Mac platform beyond UE2? If not, I guess this helps id's cause as a engine technology licenser a little bit. I don't know if Epic has support for Mac in UE3 or if they're providing it in UE4 when it goes out the door.

I'm sure I'm wrong about all this, but I just don't remember ever reading anything for Mac after UE2.
UE3 runs on Mac too, its just no one has yet decided to bring over a UE3 powered game to the Mac, though Unreal Tournament 3 will hit Mac.

[Schnoogs]

Did Epic support the Mac platform beyond UE2? If not, I guess this helps id's cause as a engine technology licenser a little bit. I don't know if Epic has support for Mac in UE3 or if they're providing it in UE4 when it goes out the door.

I'm sure I'm wrong about all this, but I just don't remember ever reading anything for Mac after UE2.

How does it help them? Macs are such a small share I doubt any company is gonna let that be a deciding factor especially since many Mac owners have picked up XP licences for gaming.

[Schnoogs]

I think I've replied to you in two threads recently, which isn't much of a trend. But to answer your question: as many threads as I see you being a dick in.

Then you must quote yourself quite a bit...BTW...isnt it time for 51|Randoms yearly banning?

[Lactose]

My favorite unfinished game can beat up your favorite unfinished game! No way! Yes way! Prove it! Wait a few years!

[Montolio]

Thanks jeffbax. Now I know.

How does it help them? Macs are such a small share I doubt any company is gonna let that be a deciding factor especially since many Mac owners have picked up XP licences for gaming.That was just specualtion on my part. I don't know why developers and publishers decide to support or not to support the Mac platform. My line of thought was if Epic isn't supporting UE3 and the upcoming UE4 on Mac, then id Software would have a small leg-up on them there. I figured that wasn't the case and now I know I was mistaken.