A Jade Empire Retrospective

[fitbabits]

Jade Empire's senior producer, Diarmid Clarke, recently had a chance to talk to the folks at Computer & Video Games (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=165623) about his feelings on various topics ranging from the PC version of Jade Empire to fan's reactions to apparent nothingness.

Diarmid Clarke: Actually, I'm probably proudest of the PC interpretation of the control system in the whole project. From the outset, we were adamant that the game had to play well on keyboard and mouse, otherwise there's no point in making the game. We threw a dummy control system in at the outset of making the game, so we had the whole development process to perfect the controls. Personally, I think it plays better on keyboard and mouse, because your ability to jump between styles is a lot more fluid than it was on the Xbox.
Diarmid Clarke: Within 24 hours of us registering the name for Dragon Age, one of the fans had found it and posted on our site. He was saying: "Hey, guess what, BioWare have got this Dragon Age, and boy, is it gonna suck." Immediately, we had someone replying: "You've got to be kidding, it's going to have thousands of dragons flying around everywhere." All we'd done was register a name that at the time, we may or may not have been going to use, but yeah, some people get pretty fanatical. I think you could just post the name, and the fans would just design the game for you - the speculation is unbelievable.
There's a bit of a misquote (I think) in the "Not Jaded" section re: Xbox 360. Other than that, it's an interesting piece. I loved Jade Empire and reading this reminded me just how much!

[Draft]

Jade Empire was a terrible piece of shit and one of the only games I actually sold back to Gamestop, certain that I would never, ever play it again. Game had numerous problems, but the most glaring would be SHIT combat in a COMBAT RPG. It's unbelievable that the fighting system ever made it out of QA.

[fitbabits]

Jade Empire was a terrible piece of shit and one of the only games I actually sold back to Gamestop, certain that I would never, ever play it again. Game had numerous problems, but the most glaring would be SHIT combat in a COMBAT RPG. It's unbelievable that the fighting system ever made it out of QA.
Your reply served to remind me just how polar people's opinions on this were (and still are).

[Ph00p]

Jade Empire was a terrible piece of shit and one of the only games I actually sold back to Gamestop, certain that I would never, ever play it again. Game had numerous problems, but the most glaring would be SHIT combat in a COMBAT RPG. It's unbelievable that the fighting system ever made it out of QA.

I hate to agree with you, but your right the best part of the game was the SHMUP sections which were few and far between unfortunately. I played it on PC with a 360 controller so it should have been smooth sailing but the combat system really was a big joke.

[Draft]

I do not understand how there can be any polarity. You'd have to be a meth addict to think JE's combat is anything but total shit.

[BrokenSymmetry]

I loved Jade Empire, and still love it. It had great story and characters, and some of the best side-quests ever in an RPG. Side quests like "the drowned orphans", and "Aishi the mournful blade" were very well done, and pretty emotional.

Yes, the combat was very slow-paced, and there were too few styles, but if you approached the fights very tactically, and tried to get as many harmonic combos as possible, it was pretty fun. The problem was more that the game didn't reward you for doing this.

[6vx]

I had a lot of fun with this game. The combat was fine. Can't wait for a sequel.

[H.Bogard]

Jade Empire was a terrible piece of shit and one of the only games I actually sold back to Gamestop, certain that I would never, ever play it again. Game had numerous problems, but the most glaring would be SHIT combat in a COMBAT RPG. It's unbelievable that the fighting system ever made it out of QA.

QFT

10 characters

[Draft]

I loved Jade Empire, and still love it. It had great story and characters, and some of the best side-quests ever in an RPG. Side quests like "the drowned orphans", and "Aishi the mournful blade" were very well done, and pretty emotional.

Yes, the combat was very slow-paced, and there were too few styles, but if you approached the fights very tactically, and tried to get as many harmonic combos as possible, it was pretty fun. The problem was more that the game didn't reward you for doing this.No, there were too many styles, and they were all basically mirrors of each other. If JE had just say 3 styles, but each style had tons of crazy moves and very distinct roles, the game might have been pretty fun. Instead, you've got 10 different variations of fast attack/slow attack. Terrible. Repugnant. Insulting. And above all, disappointing. Bioware really cocked it up with JE, and their absolute failure in that regard has me regarding Mass Effect with a cautious eye.

[MaiXu]

I enjoyed so much about Jade Empire, and so much was done poorly and (given BioWare's experience in the epic RPG arena) stupidly. For one, the game's large cast of characters were fun, but very much missing in action. Sure, they were there to fight alongside you, and they did take part in conversations, but they never felt like they were in the gameworld with you you.

I also really did not enjoy the combat. It felt very weak, I really did not have a strong feeling of control over my team mates, and I just felt that a game with this much focus on combat should deliver in spades rather than have some dull and ineffective menu-based system.

I liked most of Jade Empire, the whole concept of the IP is really cool and imaginative, and seeing different parts of mythical China was really fun. But the execution was so flawed that I can't say I'm excited for a sequel until I see how Mass Effect delivers.

[TrackZero]

I too really enjoyed Jade Empire. My only real bitch about the game was the loading times on the Xbox (not sure how this fared on the PC). I also found that once I had mastered one or two martial arts, I didn't need the rest, which kinda sucked.

However, the game story, world, graphics, music, etc, all were top caliber and I'd love to see them make another, fixing those few issues.

[EvilBob46]

I was expecting to see the Bioware guy talk honestly about some of the successes and failures of Jade Empire looking back at the game. Instead, I got a guy pitching the PC version of the game. Very disheartening since it's been more than 2 years since the game's original release. I guess they still need to sell the PC version of the game, or they believe there are no criticisms that need to be addressed in a "retrospective" article aside from the need to make the animations in the game proceed more smoothly.

[menage]

I played it for 2 hours and erased it from my harddrive. Emotionless characters and dialogue (I almost feel asleep), stupid controls and totally uneventful gameplay. I wish the characters would just shut up. They kept on going and going about nothing at all. And that's coming from someone who doublecheck every npc in any RPG just for some stupid nonsense. It was toooo slooooooow.

I may be losing out because I didn't play further. But games have to make some effort to pull you in, this only made me numb.

I hope Mass Effect will be a lot better than this.

[Yeti2005]

I loved Jade Empire although I used to watch a lot of cheesy Kung Fu and samurai movies as a kid so it of resonated with me. The combat worked fine for me. I thought the story was excellent and the evil path later on was classic.

Edit: Menage I just read your quote and it sounds like you're part of the zero attention span generation. The game starts out with combat fairly quickly so I don't know how it was slow for you. To each his own though.

[Cavalier]

I liked the style and setting, but what was with the crappy tacked up shoot 'em up, why do Bioware feel the need to throw in these useless jrpg style minigames.

Everyone else has commented on the flawed combat system, once you got that lightning /shocking style the game was pretty much over.

[menage]

Menage I just read your quote and it sounds like you're part of the zero attention span generation.

Not at all. I can watch Pinatas walk around for hours. And I've clocked Oblivion for 150 hours and still have to complete half the game. But the game just introduced a set of characters I didn't know with conversation topics which we're on par with a weather talk. And a lenghty one at that. Introduce first, elaborate later. Not the other way around. Any game which needs two hours to explain it's fundementals via text is broken at the core.

The fighting was a weird hybrid of realtime and turnbased (like ff12, only there it worked) which was just way to uninvolving. I didn't get feedback or a connection at all.

[Rirath]

Edit: Menage I just read your quote and it sounds like you're part of the zero attention span generation. The game starts out with combat fairly quickly so I don't know how it was slow for you. To each his own though.

Frankly, and I don't say this very often, I just found the game to be unplayable and boring. Much the same with Fable.

But of course, I didn't like KOTOR, and I couldn't play Baulder's Gate 2 or Neverwinter Nights despite many tries. I'm just not a Bioware fan. Shame really, since I really like the theory of their games... just tend to hate the execution.

[Nazriel]

The fighting which took up ~one half of the game (talking being the other half), was in a horrible limbo between too slow for anyone who has played an action game, and too fast for people who stick to menu-based and/or turn-based RPGs. I've played various types of games from both camps and from neither perspective was combat exciting or very interesting after getting it down pat in the tutorial area.

The most "challenging" combat was spending 5-10 minutes whittling down the health of combatants in the last arena battles. Got the pattern down? Check. Do that until it finally dies 10 passes of doing that later.

The story was interesting, usual Bioware good vs. evil/being kind of a bad guy vs. grand evil. Nice surprise about the absent-minded inventor guy...

The Open Palm/Closed Fist duality it was felt, failed and fell on its face for being anything other than the same "Light" vs. "Dark" spiel from KOTOR. In previews the distinct notion was received that it wouldn't be plain good vs. evil in actions, but ideological/philosophical grey areas. To see it was Light Side Dark Side again was disappointing, but not to a Peter Molyneux extent at least. ;)

Overall in the end, it was okay for a console game. The setting was beautiful and a welcome change of pace, it was nice to have options when speaking to NPCs, but the loading times (on the XBox) really sucked, especially for going in and out of arena fights.

P.S. Final disappointment, how you have acted all throughout the game doesn't matter. It only cares about one choice roughly 15 minutes before the game's ending. Be mean to everyone but do certain thing and you're a saint(!) or vice versa. :(

[MaiXu]

Fable and Jade Empire do share that in common: a great sense of imagination in the art, and the world, and all the fun stuff you enjoy about games, wrapped around a really mediocre and simply dull gameplay experience that kept me from enjoying all the nuggets of awesome the creative team behind the game left for you.

I got really far in the game, too, before I gave it up. I got to the Imperial City (I think that was it's name), I got to meet John Cleese's character, I got to defeat the cannibals in the hills and ghosts in the fighting school (must resist the urge to call it a dojo ...), and like I said, great stories and quests and all that, but a core mechanic that was boring and something I struggled with from the getgo.

Watched a friend beat it, open palm path. A sequel would be interesting if they can seriously revamp the combat and decide if they wanna be a realtime action game or a menu-driven RPG.

[menage]

I actually liked fable. It was a simple bash em up RPG at the core, but at least you had the mechanics worked out in 2 minutes. I loved the way you're character evolved (even if it was too scripted). I just liked being there in that world.

Watched a friend beat it, open palm path. A sequel would be interesting if they can seriously revamp the combat and decide if they wanna be a realtime action game or a menu-driven RPG.

Excactly, I hate these hybrids. Tales of Symphonia or Star Ocean didn''t work for me for the same reason (maybe I'm getting games mixed up now, I don't know)

[Johan]

Wow...there is quite a polarity of opinion here. Wow.

I own it, but haven't played it (story of my life with my games). Now, I don't know if I should bother or not!

[rpgedgar]

Wow...there is quite a polarity of opinion here. Wow.

I own it, but haven't played it (story of my life with my games). Now, I don't know if I should bother or not!
Sure is, reminds me of the split opinions about Fable.

[theguido]

I loved KOTOR so much, but Jade Empire was the reason that I was extremely skeptical about picking up Mass Effect (after seeing it in motion I'm back on board).

It's a horrible, horrible game and I hope nothing like it ever gets made again.

[Esquilax1138]

I loved Jade Empire, really fun game I thought and would love another in the series.

I played Oblivion about 4 hours and got bored and never loaded it again, so whatever floats your boat I guess. Some games you just love or hate.

[51|RandoM]

kotor and je were both massive disappointments: dim-witted, lackluster heralds of the end of the PC RPG.

[Johan]

...heralds of the end of the PC RPG.

Thank <insert deity of choice> for that! *evil grin*

/looks at Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Fallout, Icewind Dale...changes mind!

[Esquilax1138]

kotor and je were both massive disappointments: dim-witted, lackluster heralds of the end of the PC RPG.

So what would the high point of PC RPG's be? Bard's Tale? Ultima IV? Surely not those horribly boring and bland Elder Scrolls games...

[51|RandoM]

So what would the high point of PC RPG's be? Bard's Tale? Ultima IV? Surely not those horribly boring and bland Elder Scrolls games...

Everything ever produced on the Infinity Engine.

[Ravana]

I enjoyed KOTOR and picked up Jade Empire as soon as it arrived. Now it sits in my "pile of broken dreams", the tower of barely started games that grow dust.

One day when I have forgotten why I never finished it, I will reinstall it, quickly remember why, and then return it to the pile.

[Karmakin]

BioWare can't do a decent combat engine to save their soul IMO.

[Wasson_]

what is harder? To save one's soul, or save one's life?

[Ultima Thulian]

I enjoyed Jade Empire. The combat itself was fine, the problem was the dumwitted enemies and the over amount of styles that weren't useful or fun. Everything else about the game was pretty solid. I also enjoyed Fable. Both games are fun and imaginative I think.

However, I can understand why one wouldn't enjoy these title, but I think they are deserving of respect. I'd rather play a game that tries to do something fresh and fun and fail than to play a game that doesn't do anything new and plays it safe. Just my two cents.

[jordanlund]

Jade Empire was a terrible piece of shit and one of the only games I actually sold back to Gamestop, certain that I would never, ever play it again. Game had numerous problems, but the most glaring would be SHIT combat in a COMBAT RPG. It's unbelievable that the fighting system ever made it out of QA.

Anyone who uses Resident Evil in their signature block has no business complaining about another games control scheme.

[MosBen]

I really liked Jade Empire. The combat may have been simplistic, but if I wanted a deep fighter I'd get a one of the standard series that have lots and lots of moves and no plot. Instead, I wanted an epic tale and the combat in Jade Empire was sufficient to propel me along the story path. Lots o' fun, and I hope they make a second.

[jpublic]

I loved Jade Empire's settings (graphics, etc). I loved the NPCs. The plot, at the start anyway, was excellent.

I didn't like the number of styles. If you're going to have 3-4 'types' of styles in the game, limit the character to only 3-4, and work on them more. Having 10+ styles at the end of the game is only effective if you can reset/reallocate points at key points in the game.

I found the combat to be weak. It had potential, but a little slower pacing so we could maybe see some bad-ass hijinks would have been cooler.

I didn't like the Open Palm/Closed Fist. It was KOTOR's Light/Dark Side all over again, and it didn't work. It would have worked better if it matched Chinese philosophies more.

I thought the shmup portions were lame - Bioware needs to decide if they're making an RPG or an arcade game.



All in all, when I first played Jade Empire, I thought it was KOTOR in a fantasy China. When I finished it, I felt vindicated in that belief. Like in KOTOR, Bioware has put forward this view of the universe that one must either be all good or all evil, and that there really is no grey at the end. I would hope, in any sequel (or in Mass Effect) they add a little philosophical sophistication to their repetoire.

However, I did find it absorbing and enjoyable. Worthy of a permanent place on my shelf? No. Worth the $30 I paid for it? Definitely.

[51|RandoM]

Anyone who uses Resident Evil in their signature block has no business complaining about another games control scheme.

Resident Evil is survival horror, wherein a good deal of the horror arises from trying to survive with the shitty control scheme+craptastic camera.

Kind of apples and oranges. :p

[mister_slim]

I think I got my $25 worth out of Jade Empire. The world was well done, and exploring a more sophisticated philosophy than Light Side/Dark Side was enjoyable for a while. Bioware should have just stolen a couple of guys from Namco's Soul Calibur team to fix the combat.

[Deadend]

Jade Empire suffered from an extreme scale-mixing up. It had tons of combat styles, that could be shortened to 3-4. It was supposedly an epic story about an empire. An Empire that consists of a couple of mid size zones. An epic storyline that doesn't feel epic in the game at all.

And the combat system was really simple, and unbalanced. You just use the stun style, harmonic combo everything to death.

[Tel Prydain]

I really love Jade Empire, but then again I’ve loved all of Bioware’s RPGs. The combat is fairly rubbish, but honestly the combat is a minor concern for me. I actually liked that the combat areas were shorter and it didn’t force you to travel convoluted dungeons for the sake of artificially inflating playtime.
I think the plot, choices and NPCs were great – and in the end that is what really matters in a RPG.
I’ll admit that Jade Empire is the least impressive Bioware RPG out there, but I’ll take a lesser Bioware RPG over any rubbish restrictive jRPG.

Bioware games are a big part of the reason I keep playing. Without Jade Empire or KotOR I would have never obtained my first Xbox.

[PopoWRX]

While I can't say I "love" Jade Empire, I can say I do not detest it with all my heart. I enjoyed the plot, the characters, and some of the side quests.

The combat is a bit simple, with too many styles that aren't different enough (mentioned before), but for me, RPGs are about story. I have yet to meet an RPG that was satisfying from a gameplay perspective.

It was a beautiful game on the Xbox and the bloom gave it that "mythical" feel to it.

[MaiXu]

The combat is a bit simple, with too many styles that aren't different enough (mentioned before), but for me, RPGs are about story. I have yet to meet an RPG that was satisfying from a gameplay perspective.
I found KotOR's combat very satisfying, even pointless combat. The pause-when-you-want and queueing system was really nice. I enjoyed softening up a target with a few melee attacks before finishing an entire room with a destructive Force power. Or walking in to a room at the end of the game and almost killing everyone with one Force Push (I forget what the third tier of this power was called). The combat was fun, and not just because you could use lightsabers.

To me, Jade Empire was a step backward, because the combat lost a lot. It doesn't help that straight-up melee fighting was never the strong suit of KotOR, and that became painfully obvious in JE.

It was a beautiful game on the Xbox and the bloom gave it that "mythical" feel to it.
That's true, it was very nice to look at, but I felt that this game especially made me feel that the Xbox hardware was long in the tooth. It really made we want a next-gen look, because the art design was clearly more ambitious than the hardware could handle.

[bean19]

Did they not ask about long load times or how simplistic and easy the combat was? I'm most interested in designers talking about design mistakes in retrospectives.

There were good things about Jade Empire for sure, but I've already learned from them.

[johnymitsu]

Jade Empire was a terrible piece of shit and one of the only games I actually sold back to Gamestop, certain that I would never, ever play it again. Game had numerous problems, but the most glaring would be SHIT combat in a COMBAT RPG. It's unbelievable that the fighting system ever made it out of QA.

i didnt read any other posts past yours cause i wanted to have me fair say at your post. if you dont like the game. boo hoo for you, your taste obviously sucks, but dont flaunt your negative opinions in everyones face cause i ganrauntee nobody gives much of a fuck

[Citizen Philip]

I bought the PC version, I enjoyed it very much. It was very odd that the entire cast of characters had no specific 'western' angle or approach that I could immediately identify with. Some parts seemed better done than others, I would recommend it to someone who enjoys martial arts or Asian culture.

[Daak]

Jade Empire was a terrible piece of shit and one of the only games I actually sold back to Gamestop, certain that I would never, ever play it again. Game had numerous problems, but the most glaring would be SHIT combat in a COMBAT RPG. It's unbelievable that the fighting system ever made it out of QA.

Good lord. Ever play Gothic 2? Once you play through that game you can complain about combat systems. Jade Empire's combat system was "meh" at worst. It wasn’t great but didn’t distract from the polish and production value from the rest of the game. Jade Empire's character development, although not deep, does promote itself and makes one want to take another trip through the game. I think we should be congratulating Bioware from moving away from the kind of turn-based-esque stuff in KoToR.

[Karmakaze]

I found KotOR's combat very satisfying, even pointless combat. The pause-when-you-want and queueing system was really nice. I enjoyed softening up a target with a few melee attacks before finishing an entire room with a destructive Force power. Or walking in to a room at the end of the game and almost killing everyone with one Force Push (I forget what the third tier of this power was called). The combat was fun, and not just because you could use lightsabers.

To me, Jade Empire was a step backward, because the combat lost a lot. It doesn't help that straight-up melee fighting was never the strong suit of KotOR, and that became painfully obvious in JE.


I somewhat enjoyed JE, but was by no means blown away. I remember wishing that it used the same pause-and-queue technique as KOTOR, which wouldn've been really good for JE in my opinion. At that point it would almost become like one of those card-based fighting games (forget the name), than a pseudo-brawler.

Personally, I would consider a sequel, as long as they made changes to the combat and fleshed out the story more.

I'm also hoping that ME redeems BioWare, since KOTOR was by-far my favorite console RPG.

[Apex]

I cant say I loved Jade Empire either. But I very much enjoyed it.

It is an action RPG. RPG being the important part. The story dragged me along and I enjoyed it, the combat was not and should not be the focus in an RPG. RPGs are about character development through a story. Ive played many RPGs where I just sit there and instruct my character and click attack, any complaints? no, because if I want an enthralling complex combat system I will play a beat em up.

[JRR006]

This thread made me track down my copy of Jade Empire. Apparently I played it for 53 minutes when I picked it up two years ago. The combat is frustrating, but I'll probably complete it. I hadn't even made it out of the training phase before. Now that the story is actually underway it's interesting. I wouldn't call it a great game, but it's not horrible.