Microsoft Surface

[H1PO]

Multiple touch. Device sensing, Fancy display table. Surface.

Site: http://www.microsoft.com/surface/

It looks like the computers from "This Island". I wonder how much it costs?

[cp#]

There was a bit of hype yesterday about Microsoft unveiling a new product at midnight.. well they did and it's called Surface

http://www.microsoft.com/surface/

It's basically a large multi-touch input display with an intuitive UI. Hopefully they can deliver what they show in the photos/videos; The OS will probably be called Vista Surface Edition or something

I thought the coolest thing was what happens when you put a drink on it!

[Lekon]

Huh, looks a lot like the Sony prototype (When they put it in seperate glass panels then put it all together.)

Otherwise, about damn time we got a new interface aside from just keyboard/mouse. I wonder though... How much fun will gaming be on a finger smudged monitor?

Edit: Watched all the videos!

Looks more like a commercial/home media center product than an actual computer interface. A few of these multitouch displays have been cropping up lately, the tech must be getting more affordable. That being said, I rather liked the thing it did with the drink. Wonder if it could detect drugs in the drink? That could be interesting. Drink gets set down, a picture of Quagmire shows up....

[kid cabelgo]

It's like an iphone the size of my coffee table!

I want.

[Adam Blue]

This could be awesome for drawing. What do you think?

[Blade]

I think you should stick to your Wacom. :)

[Hemalin]

Looks nifty.

I wonder about the price though.

[Slack3r78]

Watching the videos really quickly has me skeptical. The people demonstrating in the video appear to almost always use the tip of their index finger to interact with the surface. Shuffling photos around with just the tip of their index finger just looks unnatural to me, especially on a display that size. It's really going to come down to how tolerant the surface is to multiple touch inputs that are not meant to be gestures in and of themselves.

Multitouch has a lot of interesting possible uses, but the short demonstration I see on the site doesn't have me convinced that Microsoft's software is up to snuff, especially given the generally sub-par nature of their existing tablet software. I can't pass full judgment until I have some hands on time with one, obviously, but that's my initial reaction just from seeing it.

[Slack3r78]

This could be awesome for drawing. What do you think?
My initial thought was I'd have loved an interface similar in design to this when I was working with Garageband a little while ago. Ideally, that kind of application would need some kind of way to simulate tactile feedback, but it'd take someone far smarter than I to figure out how to do that.

That said, rumor has it Apple also has similar multi-touch panels in the pipeline for release some time this year.

[Evil Dude]

Is this product for real or just some prototype?
How do the surface detect a zune by just putting the zune on top of the surface!
Heck, even reading photos from a camera~!!!!

[Slack3r78]

Is this product for real or just some prototype?
How do the surface detect a zune by just putting the zune on top of the surface!
Heck, even reading photos from a camera~!!!!
The most logical ways I can think of would be data transfer/possible identification via WiFi, or just simple object identification by using embedded RFID chips.

[Hemalin]

Is this product for real or just some prototype?
How do the surface detect a zune by just putting the zune on top of the surface!
Heck, even reading photos from a camera~!!!!
It says it's the first commercially available thingamabob. It's supposed to be available by the end of the year. I'm guessing it recognizes the Zune through Wi-Fi maybe?

[Slack3r78]

Found this:

At a high level, Surface uses cameras to sense objects, hand gestures and touch. This user input is then processed and the result is displayed on the surface using rear projection.
While cool, optical recognition is going to be error prone and further raises my level of skepticism.

[flinxz]

This might be kinda fun to mess around with for an afternoon, but not anything I need or want long term.

[DarkDaY]

imagine going for a coffee or a drink with someone and everything they showed is how it goes, games, movies, clips, ordering.
now watch them charge you extra just to turn it on and charge micro payments for using little things like games, checking movie listings, just drop your card on the table and volia,
134 points later you can check what is playing while having a drink.

o o. its going to be so cool and its going to cost.
ms strikes again?

[Slack3r78]

imagine going for a coffee or a drink with someone and everything they showed is how it goes, games, movies, clips, ordering.
now watch them charge you extra just to turn it on and charge micro payments for using little things like games, checking movie listings, just drop your card on the table and volia,
134 points later you can check what is playing while having a drink.

o o. its going to be so cool and its going to cost.
ms strikes again?
Another reason I assumed it'd be logical for it to include an RFID reader -- given credit cards are already beginning to include embedded RFID chips, it would only help facilitate that kind of transaction.

[H1PO]

It looks a lot like the computers from "The Island".
I always thought those were pretty cool.

EDIT: I have discovered the entire purpose for this doohickey. RTS games.
yes yes. They will totally kick ass with this thing.

[Wolvie]

Man I would buy that for my art sessions alone! Get a stylus and I'd be drawing till my fingers bleed.

[Siraris]

It's fuckin SWEET, and I want one BAD. I wonder how much it will cost. I want it NOW NOW NOW! I've been waiting for this shit for so long now.

Regardless, it's stuff that companies like Sony have been "showing" for a while. Thank GOD we have a company like Microsoft to bring it to us.

[DarkDaY]

ya, they will charge,...and I will pay.
I have already emailed that link to everyone I know.
I have been waiting a looooong time for this.
time to start saving.

[Pigeon]

What would happen if you used it while eating cheese curls?

[Grimmjow]

thats pretty fucking dope, they had my phone in the videos :D

[Wolvie]

ya, they will charge,...and I will pay.
I have already emailed that link to everyone I know.
I have been waiting a looooong time for this.
time to start saving.

Ya got ta pay to get the good stuff, and I agree, this is already bought. Just need to find out how much, and how long it will take to save up the cash.

[flinxz]

This might be kinda fun to mess around with for an afternoon, but not anything I need or want long term.

[UnderHero5]

I want one SO HARD.

[EvoG]

Thats just awesome.

Speaking of Wacom, I'm dying to get my girlfriend the Cintiq (since she's the texture artist) and showing her this, she was thinking about being able to even sculpt models (Zbrush/Mudbox) with your fingers on this thing...muhuhahahahah!!

...awesome.

[parallels]

This... this is just the same tech that Apple's using for its iPhone.

Edit: having watched a few of the videos now, it looks like they merely bought out one of the presenters at last year's TED conference.

Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwGAKUForhM) link to the presentation in question.

[Siraris]

Ya got ta pay to get the good stuff, and I agree, this is already bought. Just need to find out how much, and how long it will take to save up the cash.

Um, you can't buy it, it's commercial only. So unless you're a large company, you aint going to see one for a long time.

[Joestar]

Coolness. This takes hentai games to a whole new level.

...am I the only one who thought about this?

[Lon Lon Rabbit]

Someone here linked a video about a year ago showing a device made by some students or something that did EVERYTHING seen in those videos, I hope MS took on those guys and their idea and didn't just rip it off.

[Xerxes]

Wait didn't Apple have a video of this floating around on youtube.

[Slack3r78]

Um, you can't buy it, it's commercial only. So unless you're a large company, you aint going to see one for a long time.
I mentioned it above, but Apple's next gen Cinema displays are supposedly going to incorporate multi-touch, meaning similar technology could be within reach of the average person in the foreseeable future.

[parallels]

Yeah, here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQtrng6LzUY&mode=related&search=).


I'll admit, though -- Microsoft might be a little late to the party with this one, but the clips on that page certainly show off this tech's potential better than any I've seen before.

[Slack3r78]

Upon some more reading:

The custom software platform runs on Windows Vista and has wired Ethernet 10/100 and wireless 802.11 b/g and Bluetooth 2.0 connectivity.
No RFID, it appears. Stupid/short-sighted decision given their apparent target market. That should have been a no-brainer.

[Wraith]

So this is like a giant tablet PC, with improved gesture recognition and more gesture-based software?

If it's sensitive enough, and doesn't cost outrageous sums, illustrators and designers would probably go for this thing. If Adobe/Corel develop for it anyway.

[DarkDaY]

Upon some more reading:


No RFID, it appears. Stupid/short-sighted decision given their apparent target market. That should have been a no-brainer.


well, thats ok, the good thing is that if they take the first risk, prove its semi viable, then the rest will follow faster, knockoffs, deviations, whatnot.

All this says to me is that someone, somewhere soon is going to deliver, and
im all over it.

[Noman]

I checked the Apple video and it's not the same thing. That is pretty
much a glorified monitor where mouse pointer is replaced by touch
screen controls.

Microsoft Surface seems to be more at least from the video clips.
For one thing, you can place physical objects (PC/smart cards,
PDAs) on the surface anywhere and it creates an area around
that object. Moving items to and from the area can result in
objects getting copied to multiple devices. That's a very nifty trick
Now that I think about it, the Media Center in Vista can run really
great with a "Surface" like interface.

Interesting development.

[Tricky Thumb]

This could definitely evolve into something worthwhile, but until I see a practical demonstration of it I'm not going to considering myself convinced it's anything all too important. Also, the pricing will really determine if its something that'll stick around. I'm sure it'll be hideously expensive for a good while.

[Slack3r78]

well, thats ok, the good thing is that if they take the first risk, prove its semi viable, then the rest will follow faster, knockoffs, deviations, whatnot.
The problem I see is that the lack of RFID (or a similar technology) negates some of the cooler possible uses for a device like this in the type of commercial setting it's meant to be deployed in. It makes microtransactions more difficult. If you wanted to use it as a sort of checkout system, you'd have to rely on a possibly temperamental optical recognition system instead of simply embedding an RFID chip in the objects you're interested in, which would be much more reliable. Or when it comes to recognizing arbitrary objects in general.

A standardized data format embedded in RFID would allow the Surface to recognize arbitrary objects and then have some general idea about how it 'should' interact with them. For example -- how is it supposed to know how to interact with the paintbrush in one of the example videos? How does it know the brush stroke size, style, etc that it should simulate? It wouldn't be hard to encode such data by simply embedding an RFID chip in the brush.

It's just one of those things where the addition of something like that would open almost limitless possibilities, if it were there. Given the distinctly commercial focus of the target customer base, I'd say it's likely that these things are going to be very expensive. Providing your customers a better way to try to gain a return on that investment makes your device look all the more attractive rather than like an expensive gimmick.

Multi-touch is on the way. Apple's working on it. So are any number of other companies. In my opinion, Microsoft missed a chance to make their offering really stand out from the crowd as a unique and interesting platform.

[ÜberJumper]

So, damn, hot.

From my post in the speculation thread from earlier today...


Have you seen that stuff in action? RTS games and other group play games like oh, monopoly, etc would be SO FUN.

The technology is, to me, really really outstandingly cool. Very similar to the touch interface in Minority Report.

Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXVfVJKbfr4&mode=related&search=

Here's the touchlight stuff as well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXBbi0gWuCg&mode=related&search=

Here's some more surface computing stuff...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnumOOu6JKc&NR=1

Their PlayAnywhere tech is the neatest... check out playing car racing games with holographicish vehicles controlled by a xbox 360 controller!


I want one of these as my coffee table, and I want it now.

[ÜberJumper]

Slacker:

Barcodes work well with optical recognition.

[Vandenh]

I wonder how much it costs.

Official price is:

With a 30-inch screen, Surface will initially sell for between $5,000 and $10,000

I bet the next XBox will support this :)

[DarkDaY]

"Microsoft missed a chance to make their offering really stand out from the crowd as a unique and interesting platform."

sounds kinda like zune.
so close....

[cp#]

Why RFID? That shit is already cracked.

[EvoG]

Slacker:

Barcodes work well with optical recognition.


I was just gonna mention MS's barcode. :)

[Slack3r78]

Slacker:

Barcodes work well with optical recognition.
If they're very deliberately held up to your reader at a particular angle. Kind of breaks the immersion of the interface that Microsoft seems to be touting here. Plus that doesn't solve the microtransaction problem mentioned before -- credits cards come with embedded RFID chips already. RFID isn't a particularly expensive technology, either, especially in comparison to a machine like the Surface. I just don't see any good reason not to include it on a device like this.

Remember, this is the type of thing you're much more likely to see in a hotel lobby than in somebody's house. Figuring out ways to turn a profit with a device like this for your customers is the best way to sell this kind of thing.

EDIT:

(Barcodes also wouldn't solve the problem of interaction with arbitrary objects).

[Slack3r78]

Why RFID? That shit is already cracked.
Uh.... that's like saying 802.11G is already cracked. RFID is just a data transmission technology.

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

I only care if I can put two side by side and play ACWW homebrew on it...

[Slack3r78]

I checked the Apple video and it's not the same thing. That is pretty
much a glorified monitor where mouse pointer is replaced by touch
screen controls.
The gestures in the YouTube video appear (for the most part) much more natural than the 'poke'-style nature of the gestures in the Surface demo videos, however.

Another discussion thread on this going on here (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30655) as well.

[RevGored]

This is fairly fucking insane.

If you can put supported devices on the table, and it instantly reads thier network signature, like the Zune they show, etc... that could be pretty fucking cool.

I know WHY it costs so much, I just wish it didn't. This is the start of something big, and it's very cool being able to see its' start.

[Slack3r78]

If you can put supported devices on the table, and it instantly reads thier network signature, like the Zune they show, etc... that could be pretty fucking cool.
That's how you would think it works, but, according to the FAQ on MS' site, it appears it does that through optical recognition.

[Chameleo]

pretty cool stuff. saw some videos about how archaic the mouse is compared to the keyboard, and how much faster people can do things with all 10 fingers working at once than with a single mouse pointer.

this is a pretty big step towards making the mouse a thing of the past... and bringing the present a bit closer to science fiction.

i find it funny how stuff that appears in movies, books, comics and other media from ages ago seem to always come to fruition somehow.

i love how art and science are connected in that way.

[lost]

But is it just a thing for looking at pictures? I want to see some games running on it.

Everything needs to show you bloody pictures these days, next I'll be taking a crap on my own birthday.

[bKangy]

Yaaaaay, future!

I'll sound easily impressed here, but this would be awesome if it look off and got reasonably cheap over the next 5 years or something.

[inflamez]

I really like the concept of this "Surface" thing, but just as expected Microsoft fails to innovate. There is (and has been for almost 2-3 years now) a completely new and unique musical instrument called "reacTable", designed and built by students, which uses rather cheap parts to achieve something very similar to Microsoft's "Surface". I heard there's even a DIY-Guide floating around on the internets.

For anyone interested what this "new" way of interacting could mean for musicians (especially those into electronic sounds), check out the videos on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=reactable&search=Search

[WarWolf]

Official MS video of the Surface in action. Skip to about 5:30min in and it gets pretty damn insane: http://on10.net/Blogs/larry/first-look-microsoft-surfacing-computing/

P.S. Not sure if the same footage is in the YouTube vids above since I didn't watch them all.

[Parsifal]

I was going to post about "reacTable" too. Now there's something that I want! Why would you want to be able to make the same mess on your computer desktop as on your regular desktop? :P

[TrackZero]

This might be kinda fun to mess around with for an afternoon, but not anything I need or want long term.

From appearances, it's more something used as a utility than for entertainment. You'll probably see more of this in commercial space before anything residential.

Very cool though. I really dig the device interoperability.

[TrackZero]

This... this is just the same tech that Apple's using for its iPhone.

Edit: having watched a few of the videos now, it looks like they merely bought out one of the presenters at last year's TED conference.

Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwGAKUForhM) link to the presentation in question.

If you check the origins section, this project started at MS back in 2001. So I wouldn't even waste breath with the usual "they're copying!" speech.

[Johnny Internet]

Very hot.

Though, I can see people crying out "OGM ***OFT COPIED APPEL" the minute they catch a glimpse of it.

[TrackZero]

If they're very deliberately held up to your reader at a particular angle. Kind of breaks the immersion of the interface that Microsoft seems to be touting here. Plus that doesn't solve the microtransaction problem mentioned before -- credits cards come with embedded RFID chips already. RFID isn't a particularly expensive technology, either, especially in comparison to a machine like the Surface. I just don't see any good reason not to include it on a device like this.

Remember, this is the type of thing you're much more likely to see in a hotel lobby than in somebody's house. Figuring out ways to turn a profit with a device like this for your customers is the best way to sell this kind of thing.

EDIT:

(Barcodes also wouldn't solve the problem of interaction with arbitrary objects).

I agree that RFID is a crucial tie-in technology to using devices like this. Though I'm glad to see someone bring fucking SOMETHING to market instead of just whimsically showing tech demos.

DarkDaY is correct that once this is in the market, it's just a matter of adding in additional features later. At least the brand recognition process begins and they begin to get the vendors all on their side. I think it's obvious RFID will be tied to this at some stage.

[TrackZero]

I really like the concept of this "Surface" thing, but just as expected Microsoft fails to innovate. There is (and has been for almost 2-3 years now) a completely new and unique musical instrument called "reacTable", designed and built by students, which uses rather cheap parts to achieve something very similar to Microsoft's "Surface". I heard there's even a DIY-Guide floating around on the internets.

For anyone interested what this "new" way of interacting could mean for musicians (especially those into electronic sounds), check out the videos on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=reactable&search=Search

Oh, I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that Microsoft was completing in the marketplace for this product with a bunch of students and their "do-it-yourself" design. I'm sure that's selling well in the marketplace.

Being hung up on the idea of innovation, quite bluntly, is childish. Someone thinks of everything eventually, but if you don't execute on the idea for the consumer first (and well), it's really not going to matter.

[bstiff]

Official price is:

With a 30-inch screen, Surface will initially sell for between $5,000 and $10,000

I bet the next XBox will support this :)

I figured it'd be in that neighborhood somewhere. The flick things into the zune to download them was really cool. I just wonder how pratical the thing is. The videos on the website mainly deal w/ manipulating multi media stuff. If you have to say type a letter or email does it bring up a keyboard on the screen so you can actually type it out?

I could see this taking off in bars and hi tech high rises like element in tampa.

[phantomhitman]

Official price is:

With a 30-inch screen, Surface will initially sell for between $5,000 and $10,000

I bet the next XBox will support this :)

they have a video of forza in the first presenation...

[alexander|thegreatest]

The "buffering" screen tells me that this, clearly, is the future.


Edit:

Seriously though: This will never take off unless Microsoft invents a new kind of glass that doesn't collect smudgy fingerprints along with the software.

[bapenguin]

Pretty damn cool, but it's going to be a while before it's really practical.

[Joestar]

I really like the concept of this "Surface" thing, but just as expected Microsoft fails to innovate. There is (and has been for almost 2-3 years now) a completely new and unique musical instrument called "reacTable", designed and built by students, which uses rather cheap parts to achieve something very similar to Microsoft's "Surface". I heard there's even a DIY-Guide floating around on the internets.

For anyone interested what this "new" way of interacting could mean for musicians (especially those into electronic sounds), check out the videos on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=reactable&search=Search

the HD technology has been around since the late sixties, but we only did get affordable HD like, 5 years ago. And for MS' case, having this as a mass-production product is pretty impressive. I mean, Sony has bendable screens that they have just developed, but it will probably be 5-6 years before it could actually be good/cheap enough to be mass-produced.

So yeah, you could probably create this yourself, but I'm guessing it would take years before you could create something with Surface's level of polish, be it hardware or software-wise. :)

[SteveRage]

OMG WANT!!!!!
ooooo they could make little warhammer figures with memory chips in em for data to use and little digital cards for games and board games with digital stuff in em to make em interactive and pda's that interact with it and OMG I WANT!!!!
OOOOO instead of DVDs they could give you movies on little chips that you just place on the surface to watch movies.
this is really cool!!

[bapenguin]

Merged threads.

[alexander|thegreatest]

the HD technology has been around since the late sixties, but we only did get affordable HD like, 5 years ago.

HD technology was around, yes.


In form of 70mm film.

[wiccandrum]

Hmmn, now I wonder how this affects my WoW game-play..nada....ok,will go
back to Azeroth and wait for furthur developments ;)



wiccandrum

[Joestar]

HD technology was around, yes.


In form of 70mm film.

And we might get those clear bendable lcds in the near future.


In jello. :cool:

What I meant was that it took awhile for them to make HD affordable. I mean, sure it was available in 70mm, but it was also expensive as hell for analogue HDtvs to be produced.

[maharahaj]

will it be compatible with Macs OS X is all i want to know:)

[CaptStu]

Well, this is damn cool. Damn cool. And, for clarification, it's pretty damn cool.

I want one.

[Yeti2005]

This could be really cool in the right place. I definitely see this working in trendy bars. Order drinks, send request songs to the DJ, play simple bar games, send drinks or msgs to other tables, pay your bill, call a cab :), etc.

I could also see this working well in certain retail stores.

[TrackZero]

will it be compatible with Macs OS X is all i want to know:)

All signs point to no, since it's an MS OS.

[Johan]

This might be kinda fun to mess around with for an afternoon, but not anything I need or want long term.

I feel the same way. I don't have any long-term need for this kind of product. Fun for a while, then forgotten.

[jeffbax]

Wait didn't Apple have a video of this floating around on youtube.Yeah, I believe so.

[Psunami]

All signs point to no, since it's an MS OS.

Wow. I can't wait for a 30 inch multi-point interactive BSOD.

[trip1eX]

Definitely something Apple wouldn't do. Too complicated. Looks awkward.

Apple is good at making things easy to use. MS has lots of dough put towards research, but they don't seem setup to make easy to use nice consumer products.

[Mr.Green]

Definitely something Apple wouldn't do. Too complicated. Looks awkward.

Apple is good at making things easy to use. MS has lots of dough put towards research, but they don't seem setup to make easy to use nice consumer products.
Oh yeah that thing looks as hard to use as toilet paper. Man the day I see one of your posts here or on GWJ that's not somehow about bashing something Microsoft I'm taking a screenshot and going to sell it on Ebay. ;)

[drakkarim]

color me impressed, looks like they took a cue out of apple's book and did a nice/slick 'wow' device.

[Slack3r78]

I agree that RFID is a crucial tie-in technology to using devices like this. Though I'm glad to see someone bring fucking SOMETHING to market instead of just whimsically showing tech demos.
That's the thing, though; the reason I'm not impressed is that this kind of technology is already on its way to market. Microsoft were just the first ones to announce something with an anomalous release date.

[Slack3r78]

Oh yeah that thing looks as hard to use as toilet paper. Man the day I see one of your posts here or on GWJ that's not somehow about bashing something Microsoft I'm taking a screenshot and going to sell it on Ebay. ;)
Did you watch the same videos I did? The poke-at-stuff-with-the-tip-of-your-finger interface of the Surface definitely looked to be on the awkward side of things to me. I seriously doubt their actors were naturally using the device in that manner without having very specifically been instructed to do so.

[atariv8]

I told my IT guy I'd blow him if he could get my Avid DS to run on that thing. It also needs to come with Asteroids installed to bring back the old Pizza Hut days.

[ÜberJumper]

Did you watch the same videos I did? The poke-at-stuff-with-the-tip-of-your-finger interface of the Surface definitely looked to be on the awkward side of things to me. I seriously doubt their actors were naturally using the device in that manner without having very specifically been instructed to do so.


It looked quite natural to me, how else would you expect them to manipulate the interface? With their faces?

I expect that a camera spewing out images in a random pattern on the desktop could be set to orderthem somewhat.

It does seem to be oriented towards retail spaces and other businesses at this time.

For those of you that missed it earlier, here's my post containing links to several youtube videos of Microsoft working on similar technology over the years.

http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=815496&postcount=40

[Slack3r78]

It looked quite natural to me, how else would you expect them to manipulate the interface? With their faces?

I expect that a camera spewing out images in a random pattern on the desktop could be set to orderthem somewhat.
Watch the demo videos again. All the gestures are made very deliberately with the tips of the index fingers only. That's not what I would consider natural for a gesture like dragging a photo around, and it's not the direction every other multitouch demo I've seen has taken, either.

[Yeti2005]

Did you watch the same videos I did? The poke-at-stuff-with-the-tip-of-your-finger interface of the Surface definitely looked to be on the awkward side of things to me. I seriously doubt their actors were naturally using the device in that manner without having very specifically been instructed to do so.

I hope your kidding because that looked easy as hell to use. I guess if you've never used a touch screen or your fingers before then it could be difficult.

[ÜberJumper]

I didn't see anyone link this 18 minute video of it in action yet...

http://on10.net/Blogs/larry/first-look-microsoft-surfacing-computing/

[Herald42]

Anyone else think of tabletop wargaming with this thing?

[abso]

There are several companies that already have collaborative displays like this on the market. I think I saw 3 or 4 of them at siggraph (an ACM computer graphics conference) last august. They all seemed to do the same thing, and use the same set of gestures. Although, MS' definitely looks far more polished.

[XxSATANxX]

Look a company called reactix

[Slack3r78]

I hope your kidding because that looked easy as hell to use. I guess if you've never used a touch screen or your fingers before then it could be difficult.
How is the display going to react when your other fingers naturally drag against the screen? Is it going to misinterpret it as a different gesture? I can assure you that the fact that all the actors were very deliberately using the tip of a single finger was no accident.

Seriously, go watch a demo of any other multitouch system out there. They almost all incorporate a full-hand approach that is much more natural in appearance than what I'm seeing of the Surface.

[Obsidion]

I like the multiple credit cards for dinner and putting your food items on your individual card. Great idea there. I always feel bad for the wait service when we have them do this. But I would be insanely afraid of using it for a coffee table...

[Mr.Green]

How is the display going to react when your other fingers naturally drag against the screen? Is it going to misinterpret it as a different gesture? I can assure you that the fact that all the actors were very deliberately using the tip of a single finger was no accident.

Seriously, go watch a demo of any other multitouch system out there. They almost all incorporate a full-hand approach that is much more natural in appearance than what I'm seeing of the Surface.
Yeah well duh. Typing on a keyboard with my fists closed doesn't work too well either. If you want to take a full-hand approach your gonna lose precision. There is no way around it. If you have 2 fingers on one photo and 2 on another, which one do you wanna move?

[Slack3r78]

Yeah well duh. Typing on a keyboard with my fists closed doesn't work too well either. If you want to take a full-hand approach your gonna lose precision. There is no way around it. If you have 2 fingers on one photo and 2 on another, which one do you wanna move?
So the way to fix that is to artificially limit the interface to single point precision?

Again, look into other multitouch demonstrations. The Microsoft system is the only one I've seen so far that even appears to rely on single point precision.

[angelofrage]

Looks impressive, plenty of things i keep thinking of that'd be good on there. Syncing devices, buying music straight onto MP3 players, playing RTS games, surfing the web, etc, etc.

Of course people will try put MS down for it, but then again MS could come up with a cure for cancer or world peace and people would still pick holes in it....

[RUSKULL]

This might be kinda fun to mess around with for an afternoon, but not anything I need or want long term.
funny, I was thinking how I could totally see people replacing their desktop for this, and never leaving it alone. I don't see this as something that would replace people's monster machines that are used for gaming or intensive graphic applications, but for anyone else, for sure.

[Boris]

Pffft! Touchscreens are soooo 1980's. Where's the direct brain to computer interface? That's what I want to know!

[Roc Ingersol]

Why would you even want RFID?

You don't need a dumb low-power RFID chip to chirp out beacon code on demand. If the table is going to interact with a device, the device will be sporting bluetooth, UWB, 802.11a/b/g/n, etc. Those all come with unique IDs, beacons, and more importantly a means to communicate with the table.

Who cares if the table can sense objects that it can't communicate with?
What would you even do with them?

Anyway, the table in question is identifying which objects are on the table via glyph-style barcodes on the back of the device. Those are far more tolerant than normal barcodes, but still not the best. But it is a cheap and fairly effective way to tell which wireless device is in physical contact with the machine.

[Mista Mafiosi]

since it's more of a commercial unit I can see people meeting up and sharing photos, data, etc over coffee or something.

Here's hoping they put some tilt feature when you don't want to use it as a table top and just give you the minority report feel.

[GammaKitsune]

I think this is cool not for the product itself, but because this sort of thing is going to become standard as the information age progresses. Most, if not all, of our surfaces will very likely become like this. To say nothing of things we take for granted, like paper, clothing fiber, perhaps even the floors and ceilings.

[fozy]

Working in a paperless office (able to write and edit documents) would be amazing, and then send it off and shows up on someone else's desk. I'll wait to see more info on it, but I certainly think it has potential.

[ÜberJumper]

Nother video of Bill demoing Surface.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/sticker-shock/video-of-bill-gates-showing-off-his-expensive-table-264453.php?autoplay=true

Slacker, I'd suspect that Microsoft's done a LOT of testing to determine single finger vs Multiple finger inputs. Just by looking at that video of Bill, you can see how natural it is to use multiple fingers, he even does so at one point.

I suspect that there's a whole host of issues that they encountered in the 6 years of development that other touch systems will recognize as well.

[Mista Mafiosi]

It does worry me though, imagine someone hacked a box at your local store and kept the image as just a plain black image like it was off, but secretly it steals your information and photos. Not really for photos, but maybe a laptop or something.. Then again i could be wrong and I'm just p-noid about the government.

[Slack3r78]

Slacker, I'd suspect that Microsoft's done a LOT of testing to determine single finger vs Multiple finger inputs. Just by looking at that video of Bill, you can see how natural it is to use multiple fingers, he even does so at one point.
At approx 1:30 remaining in the video, you'll see him try to move a couple of photos with multiple fingers and you'll see the machine clearly have trouble distinguishing what it's supposed to be doing. That's precisely the kind of thing I was talking about being worried about. It breaks the interface metaphor of dragging -- I've never seen someone drag something across their desk with the tip of their index finger in real life.

[Mr.Green]

No offence Slack but you're trying a bit too hard to be negative here. This is getting a little silly. :)

[ÜberJumper]

I suspect the other examples that slacker's refering too would have issues with multiple finger inputs for situations where you'd naturally try and use multiple fingers to move things around.

The solution they're using is probably creating a zone around the first "touch" on the screen, and any related touches in that area are ignored. Microsoft seems to have kept it open so that any additional touch on the screen becomes an additional user.

There's plenty of room, software wise, for improving how the device would operate with multiple-touch users at the same time. I'd suspect they have tons of test data to back up their decisions, and they're going with the most balanced way.

[ezzkmo]

I bet it comes with Solitare.

[Slack3r78]

No offence Slack but you're trying a bit too hard to be negative here. This is getting a little silly. :)
Not particularly. User interface design is one of my strongest interests. I bounce from Windows to Mac to various Linux GUIs in order to evaluate their various design traits. I've read both the Apple and the Gnome HIGs. I've read countless more books and websites on the subject.

I tend to look at any interface with a critical eye because seemingly minor problems in interface design can lead to major productivity and frustration problems for the end user over time.

So maybe I'm nitpicking, but I've found that those types of nitpicks generally lead to better UI design.

[inflamez]

Oh, I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that Microsoft was completing in the marketplace for this product with a bunch of students and their "do-it-yourself" design. I'm sure that's selling well in the marketplace.

Being hung up on the idea of innovation, quite bluntly, is childish. Someone thinks of everything eventually, but if you don't execute on the idea for the consumer first (and well), it's really not going to matter.

Don't get me wrong. I really dig this new "Surface" thingie, and I think it's great that Microsoft is one of the first to mass produce this. Many other companies will follow, add new features and hopefully will bring the price down to a reasonable level.

I just wanted to point out, that with a few changes (projector instead of HD-screen, optical sensors instead of true touch sensitivity, open source software, etc etc) you can build something with nearly identical functionality. Sure, it's not as polished as the "Surface", but it is affordable for the average Joe, already available today and loads of fun for avid gamers / musicians. Never did I state Microsoft is competing with a bunch of students for some marketshare. I just thought it's worth mentioning and might be interesting for those of us who can't afford a >5'000$ input/hd device, but still want to have fun with a multi-touch system. :-) And no... you're girlfriend doesn't count as a multi-touch system.

[Slack3r78]

I suspect the other examples that slacker's refering too would have issues with multiple finger inputs for situations where you'd naturally try and use multiple fingers to move things around.
Check out the YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwGAKUForhM) video of Jeff Han's multi-touch implementation posted earlier in this thread. He's got a photo organization app that doesn't appear to suffer from the stuttering and confusion over multiple-point input that Surface did when Bill was using it.

[Slack3r78]

(projector instead of HD-screen,
Surface uses a projected screen.

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

MS needs to hire Jeff Han, at least his presentations arent horrible and he knows how it should be used...

[Boris]

Not particularly. User interface design is one of my strongest interests. I bounce from Windows to Mac to various Linux GUIs in order to evaluate their various design traits. I've read both the Apple and the Gnome HIGs. I've read countless more books and websites on the subject.

I tend to look at any interface with a critical eye because seemingly minor problems in interface design can lead to major productivity and frustration problems for the end user over time.

So maybe I'm nitpicking, but I've found that those types of nitpicks generally lead to better UI design.

The user interface is the least of Microbuck$ problems. The underlying operating system is the real problem. If they don't improve the crash and freeze fest that Windoze is we'll see a lot of *smashed* Surfaces when users slam their fists down in frustration. :)

At least it should be fun to play Space Invaders on the Surface just like in the old table top days.

[ÜberJumper]

Check out the YouTube video of Jeff Han's multi-touch implementation posted earlier in this thread. He's got a photo organization app that doesn't appear to suffer from the stuttering and confusion over multiple-point input that Surface did when Bill was using it.


You'll note that the vast majority of his inputs are single finger driven as well. Especially in the photo sorting app, he's using single fingers to move all the pictures around.

[Satanier]

No offence Slack but you're trying a bit too hard to be negative here. This is getting a little silly. :)


He's just trying to get his post count up :)


As for the "Surface" I think it looks promising. It seems to be a little bit "gimmicky", I think its more fun than it is productive. I'm sure there are still bugs to work out, but I hope to see it in businesses near me sometime in the near future.

[Slack3r78]

You'll note that the vast majority of his inputs are single finger driven as well. Especially in the photo sorting app, he's using single fingers to move all the pictures around.
For the most part, yes, he's using a single finger. But you can also very clearly see him drag photos with multiple fingers several times without any hiccups, which was not what happened during the Surface demo. When he drags and moves the text box toward the end of the light box demo, you'll notice he drags it with his full hand, tossing it to the location he wanted. That's the exact type of situation that Surface was having visible problems with just before a conveniently placed cut.

My point mostly being that it appears Surface is having some trouble with multiple-point input, which is a definite problem with a multi-touch interface. It surprised me specifically because what I've seen of multi-touch systems in the past indicates, to me, that there really shouldn't be problems of that nature in a commercial product.

Given past experience with Microsoft's tablet software, it seems indicative of the same type of cumbersome UI design which has an implementation in which there are flaws which either haven't been thought out or which have been implemented in a way that works 'if you do it right'. Given Microsoft's track record when it comes to interface design, it's not really that much of a stretch of the imagination to come to such an assessment given the demonstration material available to me.

He's just trying to get his post count up
Blast, you caught me with my contentless post padding. Would've gotten away with it if it weren't for you kids and your stupid dog, too! ;)

[Stryfe01]

Man...Some die hard MS haters around here. What the hell are you guys doing? Is Apple or any other company that you don't spit fire on paying your bills? No this is not a rip off of Apple, nor is it a rip off of the other guys tech (been around in diff. forms for almost 15yrs). And they didn't just BUY another company with the tech. C NET has two good articles on it. It's not new to anyone, but apparently this is the first time it has been executed as well.

[Slack3r78]

Man...Some die hard MS haters around here. What the hell are you guys doing? Is Apple or any other company that you don't spit fire on paying your bills? No this is not a rip off of Apple, nor is it a rip off of the other guys tech (been around in diff. forms for almost 15yrs). And they didn't just BUY another company with the tech. C NET has two good articles on it. It's not new to anyone, but apparently this is the first time it has been executed as well.
So expressing concern over what appear to be interface design problems makes someone Microsoft hater now? I guess I need to go back and renege on all the posts that made me one of the more vocal fans of Vista on this forum, then.

I'd also argue that this isn't the first good implementation so much as the first commercial implementation, which are two different things entirely.

[LilAbner]

I have to say, my interest in this isn't terribly high as it has expensive novelty written all over it. That being said, I was really impressed bythis video of Bill Gates on the Today Show. (http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/sticker-shock/video-of-bill-gates-showing-off-his-expensive-table-264453.php)

I totally want to see one of these next time I walk into TGI Friday's. Too bad I won't because these suckers are $10K a piece.

[Mephitisme]

So expressing concern over what appear to be interface design problems makes someone Microsoft hater now? I guess I need to go back and renege on all the posts that made me one of the more vocal fans of Vista on this forum, then.

You're one of the more vocal fans on the Vista forum, eh? Would never have guessed it.

So after so many posts why has no one spoken up about what we were all thinking about... pornography! Maybe I'm thinking a bit too much like Jackie Treehorn today, but if *any* common object could interact with the screen, you could have yourself one heck of an interactive show. Why I could imagine this being a fairly popular item in an adult arcade (or home...) for just this reason alone. Give it some thought.

[Arglor]

http://cs.nyu.edu/~jhan/ftirsense/index.html

I wonder if they ripped these people off... or did they pay and induct them into their corporation.

check out the following video.. the software runs a lot more smoother on theses then the microsoft demos..

http://www.engadget.com/2006/02/09/nyus-multi-touch-sensing-through-frustrated-total-internal-refl/

i got this from engadget... its old but i saw it a long time ago...

[Slack3r78]

http://cs.nyu.edu/~jhan/ftirsense/index.html

I wonder if they ripped these people off... or did they pay and induct them into their corporation.

check out the following video.. the software runs a lot more smoother on theses then the microsoft demos..

http://www.engadget.com/2006/02/09/nyus-multi-touch-sensing-through-frustrated-total-internal-refl/

i got this from engadget... its old but i saw it a long time ago...
Yeah, Jeff Han's been mentioned several times already here. Surface appears to be an independent implementation. Multi-touch, again as noted already by others, has been around in various forms since the 80s, though.

[Mista Mafiosi]

That is true, what I'm interested in is how the surface will act as a table top.. cold drinks, etc, etc. What material is the screen made of?

[moron]

I don't think this is so much Jeff Han's as a blatant rip off of Jeff Patten's "Audiopad":

http://www.jamespatten.com/audiopad/index.php

Sucks seeing something credited as solely "Microsoft" when at the very most they may have just bought the tech or at worst, scammed it wholesale.

Check out the video and it is pretty obvious where the ideas came from.

Further along these lines:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2003/11/30/new_device_provides_a_virtual_sound_studio

quote:
"This is a neat system," said Ken Hinckley, who was not involved in the work and is a research scientist at Microsoft Research in Redmond, Wash. There is a general recognition that today's computer interfaces don't take full advantage of all the skills people have, and AudioPad is part of an effort to change that.

Neat enough to rip it off wholesale without giving any credit I guess. . .

Cheers