No Robin in Nolan Batman sequels [Archive]

Kefkataran

06-23-2005, 07:27 AM

An article over on Super Hero Hype (http://www.superherohype.com/news/batmannews.php?id=3189) has some interesting quotes from Christopher Nolan revealing that he doesn't want to deal with Robin in any of his potential/upcoming Batman sequels.

This is a young Batman, so Robin's a few films....not for a few pictures anyway. Dick Grayson's still in a crib somewhere. I seriously doubt I will even be involved when Robin's in the franchise.

Anyone else breathing a sigh of relief? I seem to recall the addition of Robin being the beginning of the deterioration of the '90s Batman flicks.

Scaryboy

06-23-2005, 08:28 AM

Robin's greatest achievement in the Batman franchise was to get beaten to death by the joker. He must NEVER be resurrected, and that goes tenfold for the films.

Kefkataran

06-23-2005, 08:30 AM

Robin's greatest achievement in the Batman franchise was to get beaten to death by the joker. He must NEVER be resurrected, and that goes tenfold for the films.

that was actually the second Robin, Jason Todd, who has just returned in comics as a villain (I think). He sucked hard.

the first Robin, Dick Grayson, is still around but is now Nightwing. There's also a new third Robin. But I don't recall his name. Nothing too special about him that I've seen. He's in the Teen Titans, I think.

MSUStud911

06-23-2005, 08:31 AM

Kefkataran

06-23-2005, 08:31 AM

Yeah, Robin's entrance hurt the previous Batman franchise, but if Nolan, or someone as talented as him decided to incorporate Robin, I think it could be done. Robin works in the comics so it could definitely work in the movies.

Agreed. To be honest, I'd rather have Nolan give in and do Robin against his will than have another much worse director take over and massacre him.

LilAbner

06-23-2005, 08:41 AM

the first Robin, Dick Grayson, is still around but is now Nightwing. There's also a new third Robin. But I don't recall his name. Nothing too special about him that I've seen. He's in the Teen Titans, I think.

Tim Drake.

Groo

06-23-2005, 08:41 AM

If the next sequel introduces the Joker, then any sequel after that would have to hany potential Robin getting his head beaten in.

Kefkataran

06-23-2005, 08:41 AM

Tim Drake.

Thankee. Was on the tip of my tongue.

Conner Dain

06-23-2005, 08:53 AM

First Robin, then nipples. It's a terrible, terrible progression.

joruussuun

06-23-2005, 08:56 AM

Anyone else breathing a sigh of relief? I seem to recall the addition of Robin being the beginning of the deterioration of the '90s Batman flicks.

No, giving the franchise to Shumacher was the beginning of the deterioration.
I think Robin could be integrated and not detract from the film, and Nolan could do it. But given that this is just the start to Batman, I'm not anxious for them to try.

Abednigo

06-23-2005, 09:07 AM

I seem to recall the addition of Robin being the beginning of the deterioration of the '90s Batman flicks.[/I]

The deterioration began when Tim Burton stopped making them.

Kefkataran

06-23-2005, 09:08 AM

No, giving the franchise to Shumacher was the beginning of the deterioration.

The deterioration began when Tim Burton stopped making them.

Point taken. It just happened to coincide with Robing having been introduced. But, yes, I'm also not very eager for him to be brought into the new series, like was said, since it's a fresh start and all.

Though I am finally reading the Robin: Year One TPB and it's pretty good.

zipR

06-23-2005, 09:25 AM

The Robin in the Dark Knight Returns was pretty cool. All the others have been just kind of goofy.

Praetor-Vong

06-23-2005, 09:30 AM

Though I am finally reading the Robin: Year One TPB and it's pretty good.

The inclusion of Robin in the films was not the mistake. The mistake was the casting and the director. Robin as a character helped to bring balance and a little focus to the Batman persona. Having Robin by his side helped restrain Batman and pivotal points whereas he may have crossed the line. And it helped Batman keep better focus on the dangers of the activities he did.

The comics:
The first Robin...Legend.
The second Robin...kill the bastach woot!
The third Robin...started out great, but now has changed drastically from the character when he was first introduced many years ago.

The movies:
Robin of the latest Bat flicks...lame, but I blame it on bad director (if you can call him that), bad casting decision, bad script, bad story period.

Ernst_Jager

06-23-2005, 09:34 AM

The Tim Burton films were better than Shumacher's, but that isn't really saying much. Nolan has totally hit the nail on the head I think with his vision of Batman. With a name like Dick Greyson how could anyone take you serious...and a alias being Robin!? Surprised no one has brought up Batgirl played by Alicia Silverstone.

Kefkataran

06-23-2005, 09:45 AM

The third Robin...started out great, but now has changed drastically from the character when he was first introduced many years ago.

The current Robin seems to be picking up steam a little now that his father is actually dead. Then again, I only read one or two comics with Robin in them.

Surprised no one has brought up Batgirl played by Alicia Silverstone.

We can only hope they bring Batgirl back!

Praetor-Vong

06-23-2005, 09:51 AM

Surprised no one has brought up Batgirl played by Alicia Silverstone.

I would have, but it's just too painful. Alicia is great looking, but her Batgirl did not suit her at all. I prefer to think of that whole experience as a bad, bad, terrible, need-therapy, dream.

Batgirl as herself would be a great character, especially if they use the new Batgirl from the comic as a pseudo-template. Imagine a girl trained from birth to use body language as her primary language. She can read your body so accurately that she knows what you are going to do before you do.

if76

06-23-2005, 09:54 AM

I think bringing in another hero into the Batman movies could be cool, but in order to fit into Nolan's world Robin would need a major costume change.

Also where's Bruce gonna find someone who had a traumatic experience as a kid with robins?

Kefkataran

06-23-2005, 10:00 AM

Also where's Bruce gonna find someone who had a traumatic experience as a kid with robins?

Yeah, I've never understood why the hell any superhero would choose to call himself "Robin". Way to strike fear into the hearts of your opponents. The bad guys must sit around the bar sharing embarassing stories about how they were beat by a punk with such a stupid name.

You gotta imagine that's why original Robin Dick Grayson had to change his superhero name (and costume) to Nightwing. How else was he to ever be taken seriously?

Abednigo

06-23-2005, 10:13 AM

Surprised no one has brought up Batgirl played by Alicia Silverstone.

I started typing up some big breakdown of why the post Tim Burton Batman's sucked, and I mentioned Batgirl. But I changed my mind. We all know Schumacher screwed them up big time. No need to go into why. The reasons are too numerous to mention.

Tyrant

06-23-2005, 10:28 AM

The deterioration began when Tim Burton stopped making them.

You guys give Tim Burton too much credit. The first movie was pretty good, but after watching the second one again a few days ago for the first time in years, I'd have to say that the later Batman movies were "inspired" by Batman Returns.

Steamtron

06-23-2005, 10:35 AM

I think it's just a bad idea because the word going around is that Nolan has signed on for a trilogy. If the Joker is the next villain, I can't see them incorporating Robin into the second film and after that there's really no sense in introducing a sidekick in the final installment. I say just leave the cast the way it is (with the exception of Katie Holmes) and keep up the good work.

Zanzibar

06-23-2005, 10:36 AM

Michael Keaton almost singlehandedly brought down the original 'Batman'. He was awful. Seriously, if it wasn't for Jack Nicholson, what would we have to celebrate in that movie?

Look at 'Batman Returns'. That movie stumbled around for 2 hours and just.fucking.sucked. Bleargh.

'Batman Forever' I actually liked a lot, simply because Carrey did a damned fine job as The Riddler. He did. You know he did. TLJ was just okay as Two-Face, but he didn't suck. Kilmer wasn't bad. And neither was O'Donnell as Robin. Plus it had Nicole Kidman looking hot as fuck. Yes, parts of it were campy, but it overall I think was the best of them.

'Batman and Robin.' I really, really don't know what happened.

Deadend

06-23-2005, 10:42 AM

The only use for Robin I could see is to point out how damn crazy Batman is.

He takes in a kid, because he can and feels he should, can't relate to the kid at all, until the kid decides to make himself a sidekick.

I could see a Robin character happening in a 4th movie, maybe, doesn't have to be Nolan directing, just someone who respects what came before and is trying to make a great movie... about Batman.

Kataron

06-23-2005, 10:46 AM

I always like Robin. More-so than Batman, even. Okay, so the name is kind of dumb...But Batman? Is that much better? Not that Superman is particularly clever either...But I regress.

I'm slightly confused as to the different Robins.

According to the first page of this, it was the first Robin that became Nightwing...And that the third Robin went on to lead the Teen Titans.

Yet...Nightwing was in the Teen Titans later on, and I have the comic books upstairs to prove it.

Could somebody please give an accurate explanation of each Robin? That'd be sooooo helpful.

Last of the Red Hot Mamas

06-23-2005, 10:48 AM

'Batman Forever' I actually liked a lot, simply because Carrey did a damned fine job as The Riddler. He did. You know he did.

No, I don't.

beerbaronstatic

06-23-2005, 10:48 AM

How could he not relate to him? They both lost their parents at a young age by murderers... I think he related plenty before the sidekick phase.

Lagrius

06-23-2005, 10:49 AM

Carey did what he did alot in the late 90's, over-acted his parts.

joruussuun

06-23-2005, 10:54 AM

I say just leave the cast the way it is (with the exception of Katie Holmes) and keep up the good work.
According to this (http://comics.ign.com/articles/627/627631p1.html):
...Katie Holmes won't be reprising her role as A.D.A. Rachel Dawes, Bruce Wayne's love interest, because Warners is steamed over all the press her relationship with Tom Cruise is getting instead of the film.

DCJoeDog

06-23-2005, 10:56 AM

Robin is batman's focus on life outside the batman identity. I seriously think batman would be in arkham if it weren't for robin. Anyway, all robin talk aside, since this batman franchise is COMPLETELY seperate fromt he previous and since bane was ruined on that one, when are we gonna get Bane/Azreal storyline. Yes I do realize this is WAAAAYYYY into the Batman story, but I still can't wait. And it would be done justice as well.

Nuggsy

06-23-2005, 11:24 AM

Batman Returns sucked because of the tension on and around the project. Neither Burton or Keaton wanted to do another. Keaton said that he would only do it if Burton was helming. Burton said 'no' but Warner Brothers, more or less, strong-armed him into it. There were many things that Burton was unhappy with and, once Keaton came back on, they were both very unhappy with the way things went. That's not to say it would have been a great movie otherwise. Quite the contrary, actually, I think that the saving graces of the film are Keaton, Pfeiffer, and Burton. Once again, that's not to say that the movie was great, but I can think of many other movies that are a great deal more terrible.

And while I am by no means an apologist, I really believe that Clooney would have done a damn fine job if Schumacher and the Warners hadn't started screwing things up so royally.

I think that Robin will, ultimately, have to be addressed. I think that I posted in a different thread that they should really just gloss over Robin and move him right into Nightwing. They could really make a case for Batman being in over his head and having to train someone else to help him. This way, Nightwing can still prowl Bludhaven, and Batman can have some assistance. And he doesn't have to be a prominent feature, more of a one or two scene cameo.

I think that biggest decision to make in the new Batman mythos is whether or not to include Catwoman. With the utter failure of the recent film, should Nolan and Goyer completely ignore that part of the mythos? She's rather important, I think, and should be addressed in some way.

Regardless, I think that Freeman and Caine need to stick around as long as possible.

bardockkun

06-23-2005, 11:34 AM

Honestly, i could see Robin coming into a Batman movie. Since at one point or another there's going to be an adventure "beyond Batman" and thus he'll need help. Also has anyone ever read the original Batman (the first Tim Burton one) script, Robin was introduced in the second half of the movie after the Joker causes the death of his parents. So in ways i can see it working with the Joker in it. Also i think something like Robin can work in the dark and gritty world of Batman, especially if they get into the Jason Todd story.

Also even with Katie Holmes gone, Warner Bros. has said theyre still going to look for ANOTHER love interest for Batman so i wouldnt celebrate yet. Goddamn, not ever super hero needs a friggin love interest. Also Freeman and Caine are signed on for the next ones, all except for Nolan though it seems whom the WB execs are still deciding.

Conner Dain

06-23-2005, 11:57 AM

Michael Keaton almost singlehandedly brought down the original 'Batman'. He was awful. .

Sorry, the answer is "Who was the actor who overcame fanboy derision to make an passible if not excellent Bruce Wayne.

Look at 'Batman Returns'. That movie stumbled around for 2 hours and just.fucking.sucked. Bleargh..

Ok, I looked at it. It's as good as the first film. (better in some respects: HELLLLO? Michelle Pfeiffer in a skin-tight catsuit? You have my attention.)

'Batman Forever' I actually liked a lot, simply because Carrey did a damned fine job as The Riddler. He did. You know he did.

Calling Jim Carrey's "performance" "a damnded fine job" is like calling our current president a master of the English language.

Kilmer wasn't bad.

No, he was wooden, unconvincing and empty. In other words, another Val Kilmer performance.

Yes, parts of it were campy, but it overall I think was the best of them.

This statement almost defies my ability to be sarcastic. Calling "Batman Forever" the best of the former Batman series is like.... well it's like saying that Jim Carry's "performance" is "damned fine."

kickmybum

06-23-2005, 12:07 PM

I agree. have Joker kill some people in part 2 and show a boy named Richard Geyson crying, then in part 3 or part 4 bring in Robin, but darken up his costume, maybe just make him Nightwing. Catwoman is a must... eventually. She's almost as famous as Joker when it comes to the series. Skipping her is like Spiderman 3 cheaping out and not bringing in Venom.

Kefkataran

06-23-2005, 12:16 PM

Could somebody please give an accurate explanation of each Robin? That'd be sooooo helpful.

I'll try to reiterate and better explain as much as possible.

Dick Grayson is the first Robin and the one most know (and sometimes love). Batman took him under his wing when his parents were killed. You know the story -- trapeze artistry and all. Grayson eventually gives up the Robin identity to become Nightwing. I'm not exactly sure why this happens, as I haven't read into the history of yet, but I imagine part of it was to strike away from Batman and start a solo career (though he does still work with Batman). He has his own nightwing comic book and all and has become a fairly big player in the DCU.

After Grayson, Batman took a new young kid, Jason Todd, under his wing. He took over the Batman identity. Unfortunately, he was kind of a complete dick. Fans pretty much hated him, as evidenced by what happened. See, DC decided as a big event to hold a telephone poll. You could call in a vote whether or not you thought Jason Todd should be killed. Being killed won, although by an admittedly small margin, and, as previous mentioned, he was beaten to death by the Joker. amazingly, he actually stayed dead until just earlier this year (quite a long time for a superhero!).

Now finally Tim Drake is the newest and current Robin. I know very little about him other than that he works with Batman less than the other Robins, spends a lot of time with Batgirl and Nightwing, and is a member of Teen Titans. It's totally possible that Nightwing was also a member of Teen Titans in the past, although I'm pretty sure he isn't currently, though I could be wrong. But there's no reason he couldn't be a member of TT at the same time as this new Robin.

So there we are. Any questions?

Skipping her is like Spiderman 3 cheaping out and not bringing in Venom.

Personally, I pray Spider-man 3 doesn't have Venom in it for many reasons. the Venom story arc is very complicated and would never get enough development in one film. Also, you say it as though Venom is some huge anchor to the Spider-Man anthology when in fact he wasn't introduced until the '90s. He's a great character, but he really needs room for developing. If and when they bring him in, I hope they wait until later in the series.

Zanzibar

06-23-2005, 12:26 PM

Bruce Wayne is supposed to be an incredible physical specimen. Keaton is not. I could never get around the fact that the billionaire playboy looked like a skinny comic.

Michelle Pfeiffer in a catsuit. Okay, the one redeeming feature of 'Batman Returns.' But the rest of the movie - from Shreck to the mini-Batmobile kiddie ride-on to the closing moments in the sewer - was a disaster.

What exactly were you expecting of The Riddler that Carrey didn't deliver on?
Did you want an UNDERSTATED Riddler performance? No, Kilmer wasn't great, and the bat-crack and nipples were bad news. But, my GOD man, compare that with Joker's one-shot bring-down of the Batplane - along with countless other groaners?? Yargh.

Nuggsy

06-23-2005, 12:26 PM

Whoa, whoa, whoa...let's not get into any Kilmer bashing now. Heat, Tombstone, The Doors... the man has had some fine performances. As Batman, yes, I agree he was lackluster but to maintain that he is always stale...damn, them's almost fightin' words! :)

Jim Carey was, in my opinion, a logical choice for the Riddler at that time. We quickly forget that an actor is, many times, only as good as the director and I think that we have all agreed that Schumacher blows. Once again, I'm not making excuses but Jim Carrey has proven himself as a wonderful actor, at least, later in his career. One wonders how he would perform as the Riddler in the hands of Chris Nolan.

It will be interesting to see what actors fill out the rogue's gallery with the new franchise. I'm certain that the big issue will be financing. I'm pretty sure that most of the major players are locked into contracts so their salaries are pretty much already determined. Adding more and more big names could become cost-prohibitive which is why they probably will shoot for names like Crispin Glover or Willem Defoe to fill out the ranks.

MosBen

06-23-2005, 12:27 PM

Like any comic to movie transition, almost all the characters are optional and can be replaced/integrated with other characters. I'd love to see an introduction of Robin, Catwoman, Batgirl, and any number of others, but those are all fanboy fantasies. In real life you have to keep a tight reign on the number of characters you introduce in a film because the audience needs to both keep track of everyone (their motivations, back story, etc., let alone their names) as well as care about them. Robin does play a rather important psychological role in the comics, but that balancing role could be filled by some other character just as well.

As to comic continuity, Dick Grayson was the first Robin and sidekicked for quite a while, as well as participating in the Teen Titans, then grew out of it and established himself in a new town as Nightwing. After a while Batman came across a troubled kid called Jason Todd, whom he sort of took under his wing, if you will, and made him into the second Robin. After a while Jason was beaten to death by Joker, which devastated Batman, leading him to swear that he would never again have a Robin. Again, after a while Tim Drake, an aspiring detective, managed to piece together the fact that Bruce Wayne and Batman are the same man. Tim hounded Bruce until he gave in and allowed Tim to become the third Robin. In addition to helping Batman, Tim also participates in his own version of the Teen Titans. Somewhat recently it's been revealed that Jason Todd is indeed alive and has become an enemy to the Dynamic Duo.

I think for a while Tim quit and was replaced by some female Robin, but don't quote me on that. I think she might have died too or something, dunno. Personally, though Dick's an interesting character, and Jason's place in continuity is pretty significant, but I've always preferred Tim as a character. I think Batman said it best in Hush when he said that being Robin was sort of thrust on Dick after his parents died and for Jason it was a way to vent his anger issues, but Tim *wanted* to be Robin. He wants to be the world's best dectective; it wasn't about revenge.

Edit: Beat to it!

As to the various Batman actors, I thought Kilmer was a good Batman, but a wooden Bruce Wayne; Clooney was (and basically is in real life) a great Bruce Wayne, but not a very intimidating Batman. Keaton was, I thought, nicely in between. He was imposing as Batman, and sort of goofy and playboy-ish as Bruce. I thought Bale was great as Batman, though I didn't like the way the cowl fit around his cheeks and mouth, but the character had so much inner turmoil that I didn't really believe his Bruce Wayne persona, but I'm willing to chalk that up to the fact that Bruce hasn't yet figured out how to pretend to be vapid.

AspectVoid

06-23-2005, 12:33 PM

I'm slightly confused as to the different Robins.

According to the first page of this, it was the first Robin that became Nightwing...And that the third Robin went on to lead the Teen Titans.

Yet...Nightwing was in the Teen Titans later on, and I have the comic books upstairs to prove it.

Could somebody please give an accurate explanation of each Robin? That'd be sooooo helpful.

I can clear up the Teen Titan issue a bit more. Dick Grayson was one of the founders of the original Teen Titans. A lot of stuff happened, and as the Teen Titans grew older they dropped the 'Teen' part of the name. Dick remained part of the Titans for a long while after becoming Nightwing. Heck, he may still be a part of them. I haven't really kept track of it.

Some years ago, DC decided to recreate the Teen Titans, so they had some members from the original group reform the Teen Titans and act as mentors. Tim, the current Robin, became one of these Teen Titans, and he remains so. And stuff happens to him.

Nuggsy

06-23-2005, 12:41 PM

I think that Keaton was a good choice at the time. Keep in mind that Burton's vision of Batman may be a little different than our own as well as Chris Nolan's. Yes, Batman should be an ideal physical specimen but Burton's Batman wasn't an origin story. He had obviously been doing the Batman thing for awhile. I know a few older guys that are in great shape, a friend of mine is 42 and a boxer and is finally beginning to show signs of slowing down. Once you hit that wall, though, things affect you differently. So to have a Batman that relied more on body armor than physical toughness is one way of looking at it, especially when your Bruce Wayne character might be getting a little bit older.

I think that Keaton added an very blue collar appeal to the character. He wasn't incredibly jacked up, he wasn't buff, he was more like a regular person. Putting someone like Keaton in that role, rather than someone as chiseled as a Brad Pitt or any MTV Real World idiot (God I hate that friggin show), for example, would hijack the fantasy in Burton's vision.

Now Nolan's vision is a bit different and Bale is rather built. But Nolan's vision for the physicality of Batman is predicated more on his training than his armor and gadgets. Granted there were plenty of the latter in there, but his fighting method is what is important. It's unrealistic to believe that Batman wouldn't be taking his fair share of licks so I read somewhere that Nolan had Bale train in a martial art called Keysi which, and I'm unsure about this, I think I read revolves around the idea that you are going to get hit in a fight so you need to train your body to adapt to the pain and then respond in kind. Once again, I could be completely wrong there - feel free to correct me - but it seems a different, and slightly more effective, part of the vision of Batman.

Last of the Red Hot Mamas

06-23-2005, 12:49 PM

What exactly were you expecting of The Riddler that Carrey didn't deliver on?
Did you want an UNDERSTATED Riddler performance?

An element of threat? Genuine villainy? Actual indications of intelligence, as opposed to everyone simply telling us what a genius this guy is while he prances around the screen mugging and generally acting retarded? Carrey's Riddler was basically the Mask-as-Riddler and made even the Gorshin Riddler look like a model of intellectual restraint, which is pretty incredible when you think about it. The Riddler's gone through so many revisions there's really no such thing as a "true" Riddler, but Carrey's would probably rank somewhere near the bottom, just above the Goth wannabe from the new animated series. Certainly not a patch on the Riddler from the first animated series.

Nuggsy

06-23-2005, 12:51 PM

I think Batman said it best in Hush when he said that being Robin was sort of thrust on Dick after his parents died and for Jason it was a way to vent his anger issues, but Tim *wanted* to be Robin. He wants to be the world's best dectective; it wasn't about revenge.

I thought Bale was great as Batman, though I didn't like the way the cowl fit around his cheeks and mouth, but the character had so much inner turmoil that I didn't really believe his Bruce Wayne persona, but I'm willing to chalk that up to the fact that Bruce hasn't yet figured out how to pretend to be vapid.

Hmmm...I only read the first issue or two of the Hush storyline. That's a damned fine observation there though, about Nightwing and Robin.

I would agree, also, about the Batsuit. I chalked it up to the difficulties in designing the suit so that Bale could move his head freely, and that the suit, in context, is still a prototype.

I also think that Bale's Bruce Wayne was, at least partially, intentionally awkward. He doesn't know how to be Bruce Wayne anymore and it is clear in the movie that the Bat is really his dominant persona at the time.

Conner Dain

06-23-2005, 12:53 PM

Bruce Wayne is supposed to be an incredible physical specimen. Keaton is not. I could never get around the fact that the billionaire playboy looked like a skinny comic. .

Remember that this is not the Batman of the comics. This Batman is Tim Burton's interpretation of The Batman. Mr. Burton (apparently) had no interest in Batman being buff.

What exactly were you expecting of The Riddler that Carrey didn't deliver on?.

I expected some deviation from the usual Carrey schtick. That did not happen. I respect Carrey as an actor. His work in "The Truman Show" and "Man in the Moon" is excellent. But it's just him mugging for the camera here.

But, my GOD man, compare that with Joker's one-shot bring-down of the Batplane - along with countless other groaners?? Yargh.

In a Superhero movie, you don't really expcect realistic things to happen. Frankly, I thought that (the Joker's one-shot, one-kill gun) was weak, but it hardly ruined the movie.

Regarding Val Kilmer's ability, I can only judge him by what I've seen. (Admittedly, not much.) In every role I've seen him play, he's been an empty shell. He LOOKED like he was acting. He LOOKED like he was saying memorized lines. I could see the zipper running up his back. I've seen wooden indians that had more emotional range.

Conner Dain

06-23-2005, 12:54 PM

An element of threat? Genuine villainy? Actual indications of intelligence, as opposed to everyone simply telling us what a genius this guy is while he prances around the screen mugging and generally acting retarded? Carrey's Riddler was basically the Mask-as-Riddler and made even the Gorshin Riddler look like a model of intellectual restraint, which is pretty incredible when you think about it. The Riddler's gone through so many revisions there's really no such thing as a "true" Riddler, but Carrey's would probably rank somewhere near the bottom, just above the Goth wannabe from the new animated series. Certainly not a patch on the Riddler from the first animated series.

Thanks for articulating that so well. You are spot on.

DannoHung

06-23-2005, 12:57 PM

Robin could be interesting if he was written in a fashion that made him a competent crime fighter on his own that Batman actually NEEDED the help of.

Perhaps instead of playing the father-son aspect of the relationship as is usually done, it could be more like Brothers-in-Arms.

Kefkataran

06-23-2005, 01:14 PM

Edit: Beat to it!

No worries, you did a better job of explaining than me, or at least a good job of elaborating on the points I made better. :) I've just started reading comics in the past couple months, and while I read mostly DC right now, I'm still a bit rusty on history.

Nuggsy

06-23-2005, 01:15 PM

Yeah, that's how it should be done but I'm pretty sure they attempted that in the last Bat flick with Clooney and idiot-boy. When he gave his speech about needing Robin as an equal partner, blah blah...

snake-eyes

06-23-2005, 01:17 PM

Unless they plan on killing him off, I would rather they just leave Robin out.

There is no justification for Bats letting a child tag along with him.

I liked Robin in The Dark Knight, but thats it. While the movie may have been influenced by Miller's Dark Knight, it was not an adaptation. Leave Robin out or kill him.

Banacek

06-23-2005, 01:36 PM

Conner Dain

06-23-2005, 01:45 PM

Let me guess, you loved WHITE CHICKS?

(applause)

VERY NICE!

PixelSamurai

06-23-2005, 01:50 PM

I agree with Nolan on this one; Batman is still starting out, give it a few more (or a lot more) movies before Robin turns up. The way the animated series handled Robin's origin was excellent. That particular 2 part episode ("Robin's Reckoning") actually won an emmy for Outstanding Animated Program back in 1993, and it was quite good as Batman tried to hunt the man who killed Robin's parents solo for fear that Robin would be killed by him as well.

Zanzibar

06-23-2005, 01:58 PM

XenonCJ

06-23-2005, 02:50 PM

Yyyeah. Right. 'White Chicks.' Good retort.

I suppose it's too much to ask for you to take my "'Batman Forever' is the best of the four" not so much as an extolling the virtues of 'Forever', but instead as a comparison as to how AVERAGE the original movie was.

I'll compare my top ten movies with your top ten anytime.K I'll bite - what are they?

(BTW - I rank Batman Forever along with such movies as Wing Commander, and Super Mario Bros, The Movie.)

Zanzibar

06-23-2005, 02:58 PM

Hmm. I'd hate to have to choose, so here's my top 15:

The Right Stuff
The Natural
Casablanca
The Godfather, Parts I AND II
Apocalypse Now
The Empire Strikes Back
Aliens
Terminator 2
Once Upon A Time In The West
Dr. Strangelove
Raiders of the Lost Ark
The Incredibles
Star Trek II
All the President's Men

XenonCJ

06-23-2005, 02:58 PM

For the sake of fairness here's my top 10... not in any order :

Aliens
Star Wars V: Empire Strike Back
Star Wars IV: A New Hope
Raiders of the Lost Ark
Predator
American Psycho
Akira
Lord of the Rings (trilogy)
Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
Apocalypse Now

bardockkun

06-23-2005, 03:00 PM

I remember reading in Wizard awhile back that their first top choice for Batman was Bill Murray not Micheal Keaton. So as bad as Micheal Keaton was it couldve been worse with Bill Murray.

XenonCJ

06-23-2005, 03:01 PM

Banacek

06-23-2005, 03:06 PM

Yyyeah. Right. 'White Chicks.' Good retort.

I suppose it's too much to ask for you to take my "'Batman Forever' is the best of the four" not so much as an extolling the virtues of 'Forever', but instead as a comparison as to how AVERAGE the original movie was.

I'll compare my top ten movies with your top ten anytime.

I don't give a damn what your top ten favorites are, you think BATMAN FOREVER is better than BATMAN. You're either insane or you're trolling...

XenonCJ

06-23-2005, 03:06 PM

I remember reading in Wizard awhile back that their first top choice for Batman was Bill Murray not Micheal Keaton. So as bad as Micheal Keaton was it couldve been worse with Bill Murray.heh i could see Bill Murray more as a Joker than Batman

XenonCJ

06-23-2005, 03:10 PM

I don't give a damn what your top ten favorites are, you think BATMAN FOREVER is better than BATMAN. You're either insane or you're trolling...Agreed... Anyone who prefers Batman Forver to Batman, must be at least mildly retarded, or suffering from some kind of debilitating mental or physical condition.

bardockkun

06-23-2005, 03:11 PM

Oh yah and as for the female Robin thing, Tim Drake moved onto Bludhaven (stomping grounds of former Robin, Dick Grayson AKA Nightwing)with his dad so he had to give up to the mantle of Robin. This priviledge (or horrible curse) was given to the Spoiler (who was once Tim Drake's ex-girlfriend) during the whole War Games crossover. In anycase though Black Mask killed her off though and Tim is Robin in Bludhaven, something like that. Dont quote me on it since i didnt read all of War Games and waiting for the TPB's of it and get what i can from Previews and Wizard and such.

Zanzibar

06-23-2005, 04:18 PM

Agreed... Anyone who prefers Batman Forver to Batman, must be at least mildly retarded, or suffering from some kind of debilitating mental or physical condition.

Fuck off. 'Batman' was a huge disappointment. Take your pick of one or more reasons: Kim Basinger. Robert Wuhl. Billy Dee Williams as Harvey Dent. Fat-ass Commissioner Gordon. Michael Keaton as the wimpiest Batman of all time, even wimpier than Adam West. 'Prince' songs. Joker shooting down the Batplane with a single bullet.

At least by 'Batman Forever', the two previous movies had lowered my expectations so that I was pleasantly surprised by how much I liked it. It had Nicole Kidman. And Kilmer at least had a physique that made me believe he was more 'Batman' than 'Dick Grayson'.

Again, fuck off.

jwbxx

06-23-2005, 04:22 PM

Good, Robins a fag. "Holy gayness batman I suck"-Robin

splatstick

06-23-2005, 04:45 PM

At least by 'Batman Forever', the two previous movies had lowered my expectations so that I was pleasantly surprised by how much I liked it. It had Nicole Kidman. And Kilmer at least had a physique that made me believe he was more 'Batman' than 'Dick Grayson'.

1.) Pick up baseball bat.
2.) Hit head squarely.
3.) Set down baseball bat.
4.) Repeat.

Zanzibar

06-23-2005, 04:50 PM

I am unapologetic. And at least I'm making arguments and giving examples instead of lame-ass generalizations.

No wonder Fox News is so popular.

Tyrant

06-23-2005, 05:02 PM

omg shut up zanzifag
ur opinion is wrong so you'd better change it or we're gunna keep throwin shit at u!!!11

-_-

splatstick

06-23-2005, 05:05 PM

I am unapologetic. And at least I'm making arguments and giving examples instead of lame-ass generalizations.

Speaking of lame-ass, you gave one of the most generic top 15 lists of all time. No credibility given for the trip to IMDB.

Zanzibar

06-23-2005, 05:12 PM

Speaking of lame-ass, you gave one of the most generic top 15 lists of all time. No credibility given for the trip to IMDB.

I see. And Xenon's list, which has MANY of the same movies, is...? Let's see YOURS, since obviously we need to be instructed on what a 'non-generic top movie list' looks like.

I own every last movie on my list on DVD, how about you? So much for your IMDB comment.

sol740

06-23-2005, 05:45 PM

I agree, bashing Kilmer is a dumb thing to do. No actor puts his heart in every role. Some are just for the money.

And just for the fuck of it ...

1. Pulp Fiction
2. Empire Strikes Back
3. Requiem for a Dream
4. Akira
5. American History X
6. Memento
7. The Usual Suspects
8. Godfather 1 & 2
9. Goodfellas or Casino ... damn thats tough one
10. Fight Club

Banacek

06-23-2005, 06:12 PM

I am unapologetic. And at least I'm making arguments and giving examples instead of lame-ass generalizations.

No wonder Fox News is so popular.

We're going to do this? Ok then..

Bruce Wayne is supposed to be an incredible physical specimen. Keaton is not. I could never get around the fact that the billionaire playboy looked like a skinny comic.

So going by this logic, Batman should of been played by Lou Ferrigno. Sorry, don't think so. How about acting skill? Michael Keaton was amazing in a role that no one thought he could pull off. I'm not alnoe in thinking this, critics raved about his performance. So you say he's awful, but how so? Cause he looked land acted ike a man that was dealing with the inner demons that would drive someone to viligantism? I don't get it. Keaton and Nicholson played off each other perfectly in this.

But, my GOD man, compare that with Joker's one-shot bring-down of the Batplane - along with countless other groaners?? Yargh.

If you don't get why that scene was great, then god help you.

Fuck off. 'Batman' was a huge disappointment. Take your pick of one or more reasons: Kim Basinger. Robert Wuhl. Billy Dee Williams as Harvey Dent. Fat-ass Commissioner Gordon. Michael Keaton as the wimpiest Batman of all time, even wimpier than Adam West. 'Prince' songs. Joker shooting down the Batplane with a single bullet.

It was a huge disappointment? I'm guessing you were too young to talk to read when BATMAN came out, or else you wouldn't say that. Kim Basinger was fine in the movie, so where the other people. How did they act poorly? Just cause you don't like those people, that means they didn't act well? And I really don't get the whole physical aspect that you're focused on. Um, it isn't Conan, Batman relies on technology to help him, right? And your blantant hatred of Prince is just wrong. Try listening to something other than slipknot every once in a while. Anyway, he only had two songs in the movie, the rest was a fantastic Danny Elfman score.

I'll compare my top ten movies with your top ten anytime.

Again, I don't care what your favorite movies are. We're not talking about other movies, we're talking about BATMAN.

/I can't believe I have to write why BATMAN was good.

splatstick

06-23-2005, 06:20 PM

I see. And Xenon's list, which has MANY of the same movies, is...? Let's see YOURS, since obviously we need to be instructed on what a 'non-generic top movie list' looks like.

I'm just saying, show up to any critics top 10 and most of those movies are going to be up there. Which is interesting, because you're making a big deal to defend a shitty movie. You say you're not afraid to take a stand for it, which i respect. But then, as party of your defense, you put out the most tame top 15 of all time.

And, as if it really fucking matters, off the top of my head:

Jacob's Ladder
Session 9
Clerks
Unforgiven
Night of the Living Dead
Evil Dead 2
Chinatown
Requiem
The Way of the Gun

These are my PERSONAL favorites. Not what a critic says I should like.

splatstick

06-23-2005, 06:23 PM

I own every last movie on my list on DVD, how about you? So much for your IMDB comment.

English mothafucka do you speak it?! Or at least explain how that's a rational point.

Banacek

06-23-2005, 06:24 PM

English mothafucka do you speak it?! Or at least explain how that's a rational point.

hahahaha, I love that line. There's so many pratical uses for it :)

bardockkun

06-23-2005, 07:35 PM

Why cant people just agree Batman: Mask of the Phantasm was the best Batman movie over the original movies? That was in the past! Quit living in the past! We have a new Batman franchise that doesnt suck and we got 2 different Batman's on TV (though The Batman does suck, though ill respect whoever says they enjoy it, as long as they dont say its better than Bruce Timm and Paul Dini's vision). So bitch and whine all you want, but Christian Bale beats all their pansy asses into oblivion too.

Major Scud

06-23-2005, 07:46 PM

The best way to do Robin, is to have Bruce Wayne adopt Dick Greyson because of their common bond, then have Robin "train" with batman, but not actually fight with him. Afterall, the bat"man" can die, but if he trains a replacement from a young kid, the "batman" symbol can live forever. Then if you need to see Robin get some action, have Bruce busy with another villain, and robin decides to go after someone else on his own, like Barbara Gordon gets kidnapped by Killer Croc or something, but batman is busy with the man bat.

Zanzibar

06-23-2005, 08:04 PM

So going by this logic, Batman should of been played by Lou Ferrigno. Sorry, don't think so. How about acting skill? Michael Keaton was amazing in a role that no one thought he could pull off. I'm not alnoe in thinking this, critics raved about his performance. So you say he's awful, but how so? Cause he looked land acted ike a man that was dealing with the inner demons that would drive someone to viligantism? I don't get it. Keaton and Nicholson played off each other perfectly in this..
<sigh> No, not Lou Ferrigno. And if you really think you've made a salient point, you're deluding yourself. Back in 1989: Harrison Ford would have been a nice choice, but the obvious one. Kurt Russell, maybe? Hell, even Mel Gibson would have been a better choice. Keaton in Vicki Vale's apartment where he goes to confess that he's Batman (when Joker interrupts) was laughably lame. From the completely out-of-nowhere part when he pushes Vicki on to the bed and tells her to shut up to the 'YOU WANNA GET NUTS?? LET'S GET NUTS!!11!111!' part, he was AWFUL. I didn't buy it for an INSTANT.

If you don't get why that scene was great, then god help you.
What, the poor camera angles, the terrible special effects, or the complete lack of explanation as to what exactly was hit on the plane that caused it to go down? Which of those was great again?

It was a huge disappointment? I'm guessing you were too young to talk to read when BATMAN came out, or else you wouldn't say that. Kim Basinger was fine in the movie, so where the other people. How did they act poorly? Just cause you don't like those people, that means they didn't act well? And I really don't get the whole physical aspect that you're focused on. Um, it isn't Conan, Batman relies on technology to help him, right? And your blantant hatred of Prince is just wrong. Try listening to something other than slipknot every once in a while. Anyway, he only had two songs in the movie, the rest was a fantastic Danny Elfman score.

I was 22 when it came out. It was built up as the movie event of the summer; I remember it well. 'Dark Knight' had come out a few years earlier and I was looking forward to seeing a kick-ass treatment of the character. I was concerned when I heard about Keaton, but I went in with an open mind. Then I saw it, and Batman was this shrimpy guy. Batman is supposed to be larger than life, and whoever it was that put Basinger in heels so that she was TALLER THAN BATMAN needs to be taken out and shot. Kim Basinger was told to 'scream the same way whenever something happens.' Does Batman's suit have bionic motors to help him lift people/be agile? That's a new one for the mythos. The Prince songs just were COMPLETELY gratuitous and out-of-place, and you know it. It was BECAUSE Elfman's score was so good was what made the Prince songs stick out so badly.

Zanzibar

06-23-2005, 08:06 PM

English mothafucka do you speak it?! Or at least explain how that's a rational point.

Did you, or did you not, imply that my list comes from a trip to IMDB to 'look up' my favorite movies?

Zanzibar

06-23-2005, 08:18 PM

I'm just saying, show up to any critics top 10 and most of those movies are going to be up there. Which is interesting, because you're making a big deal to defend a shitty movie. You say you're not afraid to take a stand for it, which i respect. But then, as party of your defense, you put out the most tame top 15 of all time.

And, as if it really fucking matters, off the top of my head:

Jacob's Ladder
Session 9
Clerks
Unforgiven
Night of the Living Dead
Evil Dead 2
Chinatown
Requiem
The Way of the Gun

These are my PERSONAL favorites. Not what a critic says I should like.

'SAYS I SHOULD LIKE'? These fantastic films get DISQUALIFIED if they're liked by critics? No WONDER you're sticking up for 'Batman' - there's nothing left for you to root for.

Just because critics often are ON THE MONEY as to how good a movie is, that's no reason to dismiss them out-of-hand as not qualified to be on your top ten list. Y'know, I saw these movies because friends of mine - whose opinions I respected - told me they were great movies.

As for your list, 'Chinatown' I can agree with, and 'Unforgiven' is really fucking good. But you go compare 'Clerks' with 'Apocalypse Now' and then tell me which is a better movie. If, after sitting with both, you still think that 'Clerks' deserves to be on ANYONE'S Top Ten OVER 'Apocalypse Now' then you should go fling yourself over a cliff.

Blue

06-23-2005, 08:29 PM

'SAYS I SHOULD LIKE'? These fantastic films get DISQUALIFIED if they're liked by critics? No WONDER you're sticking up for 'Batman' - there's nothing left for you to root for.

Just because critics often are ON THE MONEY as to how good a movie is, that's no reason to dismiss them out-of-hand as not qualified to be on your top ten list. Y'know, I saw these movies because friends of mine - whose opinions I respected - told me they were great movies.

As for your list, 'Chinatown' I can agree with, and 'Unforgiven' is really fucking good. But you go compare 'Clerks' with 'Apocalypse Now' and then tell me which is a better movie. If, after sitting with both, you still think that 'Clerks' deserves to be on ANYONE'S Top Ten OVER 'Apocalypse Now' then you should go fling yourself over a cliff.

I like Clerks over Apocalypse Now. Don't really want to fling myself over a cliff because of it, but I could walk into oncoming traffic. I'm sure Apocalypse is the safer of the two choices as it does have a Sheen wigging out on acid, but Clerks talk about Death Star contractors and has Jay and Silent Bob dancing outside in the dark. That's just more fun. Though a young Larry Fishburn does almost elevate Apocalypse to that coveted 'more fun' status.

Banacek

06-23-2005, 08:37 PM

<sigh> No, not Lou Ferrigno. And if you really think you've made a salient point, you're deluding yourself. Back in 1989: Harrison Ford would have been a nice choice, but the obvious one. Kurt Russell, maybe? Hell, even Mel Gibson would have been a better choice. Keaton in Vicki Vale's apartment where he goes to confess that he's Batman (when Joker interrupts) was laughably lame. From the completely out-of-nowhere part when he pushes Vicki on to the bed and tells her to shut up to the 'YOU WANNA GET NUTS?? LET'S GET NUTS!!11!111!' part, he was AWFUL. I didn't buy it for an INSTANT.

hahaha, you didn't like Keaton's acting in the BATMAN, but Jim Carrey was good as the Riddler in BATMAN FOREVER? Nevermind, there's no point talking to you...

EDIT: you do realize that he was acting like that because Wayne in the movie is such a reserved character, and he would be over the top trying to act like that?

splatstick

06-23-2005, 09:07 PM

If, after sitting with both, you still think that 'Clerks' deserves to be on ANYONE'S Top Ten OVER 'Apocalypse Now' then you should go fling yourself over a cliff.

Lack of melodrama does not make a movie bad.

splatstick

06-23-2005, 09:11 PM

Did you, or did you not, imply that my list comes from a trip to IMDB to 'look up' my favorite movies?

And owning the DVDs means what? I own all those DVDs too, buddy.

Mister Pie

06-23-2005, 09:29 PM

Wow, all this arguing has only polarized you guys further. Maybe y'all should just respect each other's opinions, eh?

Personally, I thought the original Batman was the best of the series by far.

Zanzibar

06-23-2005, 11:11 PM

Wow, all this arguing has only polarized you guys further. Maybe y'all should just respect each other's opinions, eh?

Personally, I thought the original Batman was the best of the series by far.

You can think that. I merely said that I thought that 'Batman Forever' was the best of them, slightly ahead of 'Batman', which I was disappointed in. 'Batman' was ok, 'Batman Returns' was worse and thus my expectations were lowered, 'Batman Forever' I was surprised at how much I liked. Of course, I like Jim Carrey's schtick and thought it worked well as The Riddler. And it had Nicole Kidman.

Apprently, for some people here, if you don't agree with them, you are 'mildly retarded,' or you therefore must have a whacked-out sense of what good movies are, i.e. 'White Chicks.' Oh, and don't forget, if you like movies that critics like, you must not really like them, you've just been brainwashed into thinking that way.

Zanzibar

06-23-2005, 11:13 PM

And owning the DVDs means what? I own all those DVDs too, buddy.

'Owning DVDs' means that I cared enough about those movies to actually pay money to get them, thus negating your suggestion that I somehow went to IMDB to 'pick out' my favorite films.

Zanzibar

06-23-2005, 11:15 PM

I like Clerks over Apocalypse Now. Don't really want to fling myself over a cliff because of it, but I could walk into oncoming traffic. I'm sure Apocalypse is the safer of the two choices as it does have a Sheen wigging out on acid, but Clerks talk about Death Star contractors and has Jay and Silent Bob dancing outside in the dark. That's just more fun. Though a young Larry Fishburn does almost elevate Apocalypse to that coveted 'more fun' status.

Robert Duvall. 'Charlie don't surf.' 'I love the smell of Napalm in the morning.' Ride of the Valkyries.

THAT was fun. ('for me'. Apparently, for a select few, we need to reinforce that we're expressing OPINIONS here.)

Nuggsy

06-24-2005, 12:08 AM

Wow...did this turn into a pissing contest or what.

While I don't necessarily agree with some of the statements above (Way of the Gun on a critic's top 10 list? Have you guys ever watched a movie made before 1974? :D) everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

For sake of the thread, why don't we move the "Top Ten Movies" thread to its own home and keep this one about Batman Begins. Don't get me wrong, the "Top Ten" thread is a great idea, but lets move it out of this realm, and on to one of its own.

Everyone has their favorite Batman. For my money we're talking Miller and only Batman Begins and the animated series has come close to achieving that greatness. And I'm not sure whoever said it but Mask of the Phantasm was, indeed a great Batman film but I enjoyed Batman Begins just as much, if not more.

And, for the record, Apocalypse Now and Clerks are both fine movies but comparisons of the two seem rather impossible and, honestly, kind of silly. Maybe if Apocalypse Now was a comedy or Clerks was about the insanity of war you could compare them but they are so different, not to mention about 20 years apart, that they really kind of defy comparison.

Once again, simply opinions...

Fyd

06-24-2005, 12:27 AM

The deterioration began when Tim Burton stopped making them.

yeah man, thats true :) first movie was great and the best of all.

bardockkun

06-24-2005, 02:03 AM

Everyone has their favorite Batman. For my money we're talking Miller and only Batman Begins and the animated series has come close to achieving that greatness. And I'm not sure whoever said it but Mask of the Phantasm was, indeed a great Batman film but I enjoyed Batman Begins just as much, if not more.
It was me! MUHAHAHAHA! Sorry just had to take that one. In anycase oddly enough watching Batman right now on TNT and yah i can see its many faults. Yah Billy Dee Williams as Harvey Dent was a beyond stupid choice. Anyminute i expect him to say "Welcome to Lando System", also the mask and cowl don't hold up to the one in Batman Begins. Damn you Batman Begins, you've spoiled me with your excellence and well done everything. Bravo once more Christopher Nolan, David Goyer, Christian Bale and the rest of you bastards! Bravo! Now let Bruce Timm and Paul Dini do a Dark Knight Returns story like they did for the last episode of Batman the animated series on the WB (since closest we'll ever get to see of it in motion) and ill be happy.

joruussuun

06-24-2005, 06:12 AM

(In Batman Begins) Anybody think that the boy that talks to Batman, and is later protected by Rachel (and even given something by Batman) could be a future Robin?

Superunknown[GP]

06-24-2005, 06:12 AM

Remember that this is not the Batman of the comics. This Batman is Tim Burton's interpretation of The Batman. Mr. Burton (apparently) had no interest in Batman being buff.

I expected some deviation from the usual Carrey schtick. That did not happen. I respect Carrey as an actor. His work in "The Truman Show" and "Man in the Moon" is excellent. But it's just him mugging for the camera here.

Not to mention Eternal Sunshine. Wow, was he good in that. Like Oscar-in-a-weak-year good.

Made me respect him as an actual actor.

For those of you getting all pretentious about your films, here's my quick stab at a top 10, in no particular order:

Almost Famous
Blues Brothers
Empire Strikes Back
Iron Giant
Breakfast Club
*spot reserved for Serenity. :-P*
The Matrix
Ghost in the Shell
X2
Memento

Ask me tomorrow and get a different, list though.

splatstick

06-24-2005, 06:15 AM

Oh, and don't forget, if you like movies that critics like, you must not really like them, you've just been brainwashed into thinking that way.

I was suggesting that if your top 10 mirrored every top 10 ever made, you lacked the ability to think on your own. Maybe you really do like those movies, but in my personal opinion while they are good, they are overrated. Yeah, I liked Citizen Kane and Casablanca, there's a ton of good movies that get overlooked because of them.

And as for The Way of the Gun: "You'd better shut that cunt's mouth before I fuck-start her head"

Kefkataran

06-24-2005, 06:46 AM

(In Batman Begins) Anybody think that the boy that talks to Batman, and is later protected by Rachel (and even given something by Batman) could be a future Robin?

Interesting idea. I'd never thought of that. Totally possible, I suppose. Were Robin's parents supposed to have fighting problems?

but in my personal opinion while they are good, they are overrated. Yeah, I liked Citizen Kane and Casablanca, there's a ton of good movies that get overlooked because of them.

I'd still put Citizen Kane and Casablanca on my top 10 list. *shrug* Call them overrated all you want, they were great films. Maybe they have led to other films being overlooked, but they're still great films. Astounding, even.

Of course I'd also put Waking Life on my list, and that's hardly a common favorite.

Nuggsy

06-24-2005, 08:21 AM

While I typically don't agree with critics, some of them out there really know their shit. Read The Great Movies 1 & 2 by Roger Ebert. I always took him for a big guy that trolled his opinions but he really, really shows a sincere love and knowledge for film.

Kefkataran

06-24-2005, 09:06 AM

Ebert is brilliant, really. And he writes just damned well. We need an Ebert of videogames.

Zanzibar

06-24-2005, 10:30 AM

(In Batman Begins) Anybody think that the boy that talks to Batman, and is later protected by Rachel (and even given something by Batman) could be a future Robin?

That's EXACTLY what I thought when I saw him. As soon as he mentioned his parents were 'missing' I was really curious if they were gonna reveal the kid's name as 'Dick Grayson.' I'm glad they didn't.

I really enjoyed Batman Begins. Bale is a REALLY GOOD Batman. He did the 'snarl' face while talking a little too much, particularly w/Flass. I guess he was trying to blow through the mask in terms of emoting but it was a little much. He was a FABULOUS Bruce Wayne. Gary Oldman would have been my last guess as Gordon, but he was magnificent. And Caine was fantastic as Alfred. By the way, I really thought Fox and Rachel were gonna die. Kinda curious whether the people that know Bruce is Batman will come back to haunt him.

bardockkun

06-24-2005, 12:02 PM

(In Batman Begins) Anybody think that the boy that talks to Batman, and is later protected by Rachel (and even given something by Batman) could be a future Robin?
I doubt that would work considering Dick Grayson's family were closely knit together, so all the more reason him and Batman have the common goal of avenging them. Also Robin is one of the top acrobats in the DC universe (which also makes him one of the top fighters) so it'd kind of make no sense for Batman to toss a kid with no experience in anything into a fight. Not to mention with a traveling circus, plus no hints of anything he can do besides panic and hide his face in the chest of Katie Holmes (or perhaps that's the reason why he didnt do anything?). But yah i want a goddamn circus Robin, all the more reason for the costume instead of Batman being more insane and tossing him a brightly colored outfit. The outfit can work NO OTHER WAY unless he's in the circus.

joruussuun

06-24-2005, 12:26 PM

I doubt that would work considering Dick Grayson's family were closely knit together, so all the more reason him and Batman have the common goal of avenging them. Also Robin is one of the top acrobats in the DC universe (which also makes him one of the top fighters) so it'd kind of make no sense for Batman to toss a kid with no experience in anything into a fight. Not to mention with a traveling circus, plus no hints of anything he can do besides panic and hide his face in the chest of Katie Holmes (or perhaps that's the reason why he didnt do anything?). But yah i want a goddamn circus Robin, all the more reason for the costume instead of Batman being more insane and tossing him a brightly colored outfit. The outfit can work NO OTHER WAY unless he's in the circus.

I said A Robin, not Dick Grayson... there are two other Robins. It could be that Nolan would work their version of the story and choose one of the other kids as Robin for his movie, and not follow the comic as Dick Grayson first.