Tretton Comments on Moore's F@H Remarks

[Gorvi]

In an interview with Gamepro (via Eurogamer (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=76563)), Sony's Jack Tretton questions Peter Moore's intentions in regards to his comments on Sony's participation in Stanford's Folding@Home project.
Speaking to GamePro, Tretton questioned Microsoft's intentions: "Let's face it, if your motivation is for PR, to me, that's a little shallow. We go out of our way, correctly so, to make sure that we don't try to sell PS3s on Folding@Home.

"I think to look at it as a marketing platform is something that a company certainly wouldn't want to do. I'm certainly not insinuating that's Microsoft's motivation, but I'm not even sure how relevant it is to what we're doing. Would they be even having this conversation if we weren't doing it? I don't know."

Tretton went on to query whether Xbox 360 is even powerful enough to take part in such a project, stating, "I would guess that the medical community would take help from anywhere they could get it, but the commentary that I heard is that Stanford isn't sure that [the Xbox 360's processing abilities] would help them very much. Which is odd to me because if it helped at all, it seems like they would welcome it with open arms.

"It's really ugly territory to get into, but let's take fighting a disease and see if we can get some credit for that," he continued.

"It's not a cool game to play one way or the other so I don't want to even give the impression that that's our motivation, and I'd be very disappointed if they're looking for PR value or to try to suck off some of the goodwill that we're doing."

[Serapth]

... funny how it isnt a PR thing for them, but then he turns around and makes the comment:

I would guess that the medical community would take help from anywhere they could get it, but the commentary that I heard is that Stanford isn't sure that [the Xbox 360's processing abilities] would help them very much.

Glass house == Dont throw stones.

[TheStranger]

I've seen a lot of fellow 360 owners mocking Sony for taking this route with F@Home. I say, its part good advertising for them, part a good deed. And its for the good deed part I say fair play.

If such a thing did come to the 360, if it were able, I would certainly do it.

But, this 360 not being able for F@Home line is leading to the Sony fanboy side (not all) becoming pretentious. This is a games console, so we compare the abilities on the games that come out, and ease of development for the companies making games. Not additional features like this.

Still, though, kudos on the F@Home initiative, and I do hope something good comes to the 360.

[Gorvi]

Meh, I see it more as him responding to MS saying it's a PR move, because they're not advertising it at all. Sure, we know about it as gamers, but we're not seeing huge press releases or anything about it. They're not shouting from the mountaintops "Look at the good thing we're doing! Pat us on the back!". Sure, it's good PR, but they're not really using it like that, which, for once, is a good move on Sony's part.

[Tel Prydain]

The one thing that the F@Home initiative does for the PS3 is show off the raw power. It's almost ideal for the cell.

[bapenguin]

Meh, I see it more as him responding to MS saying it's a PR move, because they're not advertising it at all. Sure, we know about it as gamers, but we're not seeing huge press releases or anything about it. They're not shouting from the moutiantops "Look at the good thing we're doing! Pat us on the back!". Sure, it's good PR, but they're not really using it like that, which, for once, is a good move on Sony's part.

Actually there have been press releases about it. Both in regards to the launch of it, the 1.1 update of it and the "double the processing power of F@H" thing.

[TheStranger]

Way I look at it, the bad press Sony has been getting recently, and Kutaragi being tossed aside after his crazy antics... Sony is now looking for good PR. They need it really badly right now. And what better way to do it than philantrophy? I mean, its not as if philantrophy is new to Microsoft. Need I remind people that Gates is renowned for this? Ultimately, fair play to Sony for doing this, they do deserve a pat in the back for it.

[Gorvi]

Actually there have been press releases about it. Both in regards to the launch of it, the 1.1 update of it and the "double the processing power of F@H" thing.
Well, to us, yeah, but we're not seeing this going to mainstream press (which is what I was getting at). You would think Sony as a corporation would have the clout to get it out there more vocally if they really wanted to.

[TheStranger]

Well, to us, yeah, but we're not seeing this going to mainstream press (which is what I was getting at). You would think Sony as a corporation would have the clout to get it out there more vocally if they really wanted to.
Well, the Folding@Home project has been reported by the BBC, for one in terms of mainstream press. I'm sure there has been others.

[bapenguin]

Well, to us, yeah, but we're not seeing this going to mainstream press (which is what I was getting at). You would think Sony as a corporation would have the clout to get it out there more vocally if they really wanted to.

The Press Release goes out to all types of press. But I see your point.

And who do you think Moore's comments were too? Weren't they made in the San Jose Mercury News?

[Meusli]

I would not trust Tretton and Moore in a dark alley or what cheap shots they fire at each other. The main thing is that it may well be making a difference which is more important than Kudos points.

[Vandenh]

Please no.. this is just a flamebait thread.

[Johan]

Meh, I see it more as him responding to MS saying it's a PR move

Rose-coloured glasses?

/British spelling; lovely!

[Jambe]

Buy a PS3 — entertain yourself and cure CF/cancer/Alz/etc while you're not gaming! What's that *** said? Wait, nevermind. Only fight disease if you want to. We're not going to tell you to do it. But you can do it. We're just not going to focus on it at all because it's not functionality we want to use as PR.

We're not going to tell you to do it, mind you. But if you should want to, look at these stats. The PS3 is really good at it — better than some of the best PCs, even! And that XBox 360, that thing, it could do it if they wanted to, but again, I'm not sure if *** wants you to do that with their hardware. I'm not even sure if it'd be good at it. But, in any regard, this isn't a PR event. But, uhm, you can always do it with your PS3, if you want to. Here's the Folding@Home page where you can download the specialized client.

But really, we don't want you to do it because we said so. This isn't a PR event. Just buy a PS3...
Riiiiiiiiiight.

[Deathwave]

All Sony needed to say was that they were doing it to help people, end of story. One line release. Anything more than that does make it look like a PR move.

[Murtaug]

Tretton went on to query whether Xbox 360 is even powerful enough to take part in such a project, stating... yadda yadda yadda.

Um, why would you make such a dumbass remark? Sure, the Cell processor is a powerful piece of silicon, and it apparently is quite well suited to the type of processing required for Folding@Home. But to insinuate that the processor in the 360 is not powerful enough to do Folding operations is a pretty assinine comment.

I do not have the technical background to go into a detailed comparison as to why the Cell is good at it, and why the 360 processor (Xenon?) may or may not be good or as good. Regardless, the processor in the 360 is still an impressive piece of hardware.

Not to say that MS PR have not made dumb remarks, we know they have, but that just stuck out in the quoted text to me.

[Mdot23]

IT'S NOT EVEN A FUCKING GAME.

close the thread.

[Meusli]

IT'S NOT EVEN A FUCKING GAME.

close the thread.

Its all a game!!!11!!

[TheFlyingOrc]

The one thing that the F@Home initiative does for the PS3 is show off the raw power. It's almost ideal for the cell.
It seems like it would be a bad move for Microsoft - I don't think anyone thinks that the 360 is going to have the raw numbers that the PS3 does, and will just be more "evidence" of the PS3's superiority.

[TheStranger]

All Sony needed to say was that they were doing it to help people, end of story. One line release. Anything more than that does make it look like a PR move.
They don't even need to do that. The purpose of this was to question whether MS doing this would be for good PR or to help cure a disease.

The proof that we haven't advanced much from monkeys, the modern day example of fecal throwing.

[Doctor Setebos]

... funny how it isnt a PR thing for them, but then he turns around and makes the comment:

I would guess that the medical community would take help from anywhere they could get it, but the commentary that I heard is that Stanford isn't sure that [the Xbox 360's processing abilities] would help them very much.

Glass house == Dont throw stones.Well, to be fair, according to the guy who runs Folding@Home (http://www.pro-g.co.uk/news/03-05-2007-5386.html), that is a true statement.

Vijay Pande, creator of the Folding@home project, which harnesses the power of networked Playstation3s across the world to carry out essential research into Alzheimer's Disease, has revealed to Pro-G that the 360 is of limited help to his work.

After being asked if he thought the power of the 360 could be useful, he said: "Possibly, although the cell processor in the PS3 is much more powerful for our calculations than the CPU in the Xbox 360."

[51|RandoM]

Eh, Moore opened this can of worms. He should have just been a man about it and admitted that Sony's support of F@H was a good thing and that Microsoft was looking at similar efforts.

Moore and Kim have been rolling dice to see who can say the stupidest thing lately.

[agentgray]

I want the 360 to have it's own @Home service. Let's see what it can do.

[Kamalot]

I respect any work done to further Folding@Home, but this comment struck me as odd:Would they be even having this conversation if we weren't doing it?

Would PS3 come standard with a hard drive if Microsoft hadn't done it?
Would PS3 come standard with motion-sensing controllers if Nintendo wasn't doing it?

In terms of Folding @ Home, Sony is clearly a leader. I'd personally be happier if Sony focused on being the leader in video games, a title they most definitely are not earning this generation.

[51|RandoM]

I want the 360 to have it's own @Home service. Let's see what it can do.

It isn't going to happen. Microsoft doesn't want to be late to the party only to turn in relatively weak performance(in comparison to the PS3).

All of which is understandable, just a shame they had to be dicks about it.

[roboninja]

Asshole, meet corporate mouthpiece. Corporate mouthpeice, meet asshole. Now, fight to the death! Hopefully it is a double fatality. Maybe then we can stop hearing all your bullshit.

[Johan]

I want the 360 to have it's own @Home service. Let's see what it can do.

Good Lord, no. The damn things will melt in the hundreds of thousands.

This whole thing is so silly. If you own a 360 and you want to do something helpful for cancer research, you don't need to spend $600 on a PS3 to do it. Give the damn money to cancer research!!!

If you want to play PS3 games, then buy a PS3 and, should you have an interest in it, F@H is a nice, feel-good bonus option. However, there are plenty of ways to assist in cancer research. You don't need a Cell processor to do it.

WTF already... :rolleyes:

[Crenor]

I have no idea why anyone with a console would ever do this.

Lets see - leave your console on, to heat up, waste energy, possibly help it die faster (PS1/PS2 was KNOWN for burning out - more of a just used too much, most people I know went through 2-3 of the due to this).

What if it works and they find a cure? Are they giving us progress reports? or are they just trying to patent everything they find and charge us up the ass for it?

I have no issues letting a computer that is on anyways do this sort of thing, but this generation of consoles is WAY too hot and I would not trust leaving it on for that long a period of time. MAYBE if the consoles ran COLD when playing a game like gears of war I would do it. Until then forget it.

[Norse]

Eh, Moore opened this can of worms. He should have just been a man about it and admitted that Sony's support of F@H was a good thing and that Microsoft was looking at similar efforts.

Moore and Kim have been rolling dice to see who can say the stupidest thing lately.

What has Kim said recently?

[J3DI]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serapth
... funny how it isnt a PR thing for them, but then he turns around and makes the comment:

I would guess that the medical community would take help from anywhere they could get it, but the commentary that I heard is that Stanford isn't sure that [the Xbox 360's processing abilities] would help them very much.

Glass house == Dont throw stones.
Well, to be fair, according to the guy who runs Folding@Home, that is a true statement.

Quote:
Vijay Pande, creator of the Folding@home project, which harnesses the power of networked Playstation3s across the world to carry out essential research into Alzheimer's Disease, has revealed to Pro-G that the 360 is of limited help to his work.

After being asked if he thought the power of the 360 could be useful, he said: "Possibly, although the cell processor in the PS3 is much more powerful for our calculations than the CPU in the Xbox 360."


Then my question would be: Did anyone ask how he knew this? Perhaps it is a game (of sorts). When developers make exclusives, don't they talk up one system and down another. . . Is this any different? This could be more than acceptable if they had reason behind saying it, such as; we tested both systems... or something to that affect. And to say it would be of "limited help?" You mean to tell me a that a network of 360 (which there are about 3 times as many of than Ps3's) wouldn't be of any help? That just doesn't make since... Maybe it would if you had the same number of systems doing it.... no, I can't even begin to make a reason. It just doesn't make since and is definitely a PR move on Sony's part. The quote from the folding people proves it. Help is help and you don't talk down to it, and call it limited. Is Sony doing it for PR or simply making a good intention? I dunno... But remember that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

[Rune_74]

Oh come on my local news even had it about the ps3....its marketing and to call it not marketing is a bold face lie.

[51|RandoM]

What has Kim said recently?

FUD about Home.

[Gorvi]

I have no idea why anyone with a console would ever do this.

Lets see - leave your console on, to heat up, waste energy, possibly help it die faster (PS1/PS2 was KNOWN for burning out - more of a just used too much, most people I know went through 2-3 of the due to this).

What if it works and they find a cure? Are they giving us progress reports? or are they just trying to patent everything they find and charge us up the ass for it?

I have no issues letting a computer that is on anyways do this sort of thing, but this generation of consoles is WAY too hot and I would not trust leaving it on for that long a period of time. MAYBE if the consoles ran COLD when playing a game like gears of war I would do it. Until then forget it.
The system actually does run cool when playing a game or F@H. As long as you don't confine it in an enclosed cabinet, all the hot air is dispersed out the side (or top, depending on how it's standing). The PS1 and PS2 problems were all drive related, and his has nothing to do with that.

[Schnoogs]

360 not powerful enough???

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!

What is this guy smoking??

10 million 360's probably equals terraflops worth of processing power if not more.

EDIT....

Conservative estimates are that each 360 processor is capable of 100 gigaflops...so multiply that by the install base

10,000,000 x 100 = 1,000,000,000 gigaflops OR 1,000,000 Terraflops

Yeah...that wouldn't be powerful enough to make a difference! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

The #1 supercomputer (http://www.top500.org/lists/2006/11) in the world does 280.6 teraflops

[Klade]

I don't have a problem with the Folding@Home being marketing for the PS3, that makes sense and is just fine by me. I do have a problem with Sony acting like its on top of the mountain with their comments in this story.

The correct and professional response to make when Sony was asked if they knew anything about the 360 participating in the Folding@Home would have been "We are happy to see the attention this disease is getting and are looking forward the Folding@Home project receiving even more help in the gaming sphere." Anything beyond that message or something very similar is just pathetically petty.

[Johan]

360 not powerful enough???

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!

What is this guy smoking??

I think his own mental processor (aka his brain) isn't powerful enough to figure it out! ;)

[RorschachCCCLX]

my dad has parkinsons, he is also a PhD in chemistry- he understands this better then I - if this little bit we do helps get them a cure for crippling brain maladies, then I say sure, I will sacrifice being able to play this thing 9 years from now. even if the individual controbution is small, its the sum of the parts that the real good is done.

[Roc Ingersol]

"We don't try to sell the PS3 on Folding@Home... but PS3's clearly better because it can really crank out the numbers!"

fucking PR people. burn em all.

[mkelehan]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: release it on the 360 with a leaderboard and 200 achievement points. You'll cure cancer right there.

[bean19]

Hilarious stuff.

Is this the ugliest that the console wars have ever been? Of course, Folding@Home is marketing, and Sony did lead the way on that. I applaud companies who go the route of doing good things to get publicity, even when they earn millions more from it than they get back, it is a better use of money than paying a marketing team IMO.

If Microsoft does it, then they'll be following Sony's lead, but it will still be for a good cause. It will be marketing, and that's fine.

However, calling Microsoft smarmy for using the same marketing technique. Whoo! That's some awesome mud-slinging.

[bapenguin]

It isn't going to happen. Microsoft doesn't want to be late to the party only to turn in relatively weak performance(in comparison to the PS3).

If Microsoft does this, they'll find a project that shows the strengths of their processor.

[Philonious]

If this wasn't strictly a PR move o behalf of the XBOX team, and was actually a philanthropic initiative, why wouldn't they integrate something like folding at Home into the Vista shell? Seriously, with over 40 million Vista users, wouldn't it be a better way for Microsoft to lend a hand. The Cell is a processor built to crunch LOTS of numbers, and folding at home is an excellent way for Sony to demonstrate how powerful it is. Of course it had PR value, but Microsoft's "me too" approach is blatant, and if the reverse was being done you would all be crucifying Tretton.

[Roc Ingersol]

Is this the ugliest that the console wars have ever been?
No, it's just the closest people have been covering it. Without established fan-news sites, shit like this got ignored, omitted, or paraphrased at best by the Press.

[Trazzlo the Magnificant]

So, his point is it's only good intentions and non-PR if you do it first?

[Mdot23]

No, it's just the closest people have been covering it. Without established fan-news sites, shit like this got ignored, omitted, or paraphrased at best by the Press.

SNES vs Genesis ftw.

[51|RandoM]

SNES vs Genesis ftw.

Sega does what Nintendon't!

[DeadlyDonkey]

10 million 360's probably equals terraflops worth of processing power if not more.

You really need to actually research the two processors, how they do calculations, and exactly why the PS3 would be so much better than the 360.

Protip: It isn't a numbers game.

Additionally, MS has the worst console reliability this generation, which some have even come close to putting down to a critical flaw. As paraphrased from an earlier article:



The design and construction of the Xbox 360 CPU, GPU, and motherboard cause the board to warp under normal operation conditions. When the board warps, the critical solder joints between the CPU/GPU and the motherboard may fail, resulting in the infamous red ring of death. In a recent article, Llamma.com (http://www.llamma.com/xbox360/news/inside_the_xbox_360_elite.htm) disected the Xbox 360 Elite, and discovered that Microsoft is now using epoxy to secure the CPU and GPU in an attempt to relieve stress on the chips' solder joints.

Given that a critical flaw in the Xbox 360's design has already been identified, a F@H client would only serve to magnify this flaw, and hundreds of thousands of Xbox 360 owners could be forced to return their consoles for repair. With customer dissatisfaction as high as it already is, this isn't a risk Microsoft can afford to take.


You aren't seeing F@H any time soon, unless Microsoft learns to actually make a stable console.

[51|RandoM]

If Microsoft does this, they'll find a project that shows the strengths of their processor.

I don't believe such a project exists, which isn't really a bad thing. Sticking with something that more closely resembles a typical general purpose processor presumably kept costs down and made software development easier than it is on something from out of left field like the Cell.

So, the Cell is significantly better at scientific computation? Big deal, it has yet to prove itself significantly better at what we care about, which is gaming.

That is why it seems rather dumb of Microsoft to get nasty about it. It is like a candidate in a presidential debate giving the other person a hard time about coloring their hair.

[Kamalot]

I don't believe such a project exists, which isn't really a bad thing. Sticking with something that more closely resembles a typical general purpose processor presumably kept costs down and made software development easier than it is on something from out of left field like the Cell.

So, the Cell is significantly better at scientific computation? Big deal, it has yet to prove itself significantly better at what we care about, which is gaming.

That is why it seems rather dumb of Microsoft to get nasty about it. It is like a candidate in a presidential debate giving the other person a hard time about coloring their hair.
I completely agree. If Sony and Microsoft want to outdo each other, maybe they could start by being competitive about games instead of worrying about which console is better at folding, which is hotter, which has more storage, or which one is louder. Focus on making my gaming experience great, affordable and fun.

[Johan]

...which is hotter...

It's you...totally you!

You look lovely in red! :)

/I think I've had waaaaaay too much caffeine today. :o

[Podfork]

You know, Microsoft could have sidestepped direct comparisons by having some regular rep talk about Folding@Home and how it's been available as an optional service on Microsoft platforms for years (Windows!).

The gamers who insist on reading between every line (usually at the expense of what is actually written) could then be relied upon to make it a 360 vs PS3 argument and MS could keep their nose clean by claiming they never meant it like that at all. Having a 360 spokesperson talk about it like that is a bit obvious.

Amongst all this cock-waving it's also worth remembering that Microsoft seems to do a fair bit of charity work too (as do all massive corporations these days) and Gates has his own charity movement himself. (That I'm more aware of this than of any similar Sony efforts - excluding F@H - probably says something about the strength of Microsoft's PR - oooh, the irony!)

Still, if these companies want to compete to cure illnesses and entertain us at the same time with PR fireworks then I only see that as a win/win situation for us all.

[dimsumx]

Granted, the PS3 with it's Cell processor may be more suited for a project like this, but let's be honest here: Hypothetically say that the PS3 can do twice the folding work (Or even three times if you'd like...doesn't matter), the big elephant that they're avoiding is that there's 3 times the number of Xbox 360s out there. If the project were to happen for Xbox 360, it can easily take up the majority.

[bapenguin]

I don't believe such a project exists, which isn't really a bad thing. Sticking with something that more closely resembles a typical general purpose processor presumably kept costs down and made software development easier than it is on something from out of left field like the Cell.

So, the Cell is significantly better at scientific computation? Big deal, it has yet to prove itself significantly better at what we care about, which is gaming.

That is why it seems rather dumb of Microsoft to get nasty about it. It is like a candidate in a presidential debate giving the other person a hard time about coloring their hair.

If one doesn't exist, Microsoft will make one. LOL.

[Joestar]

I think it's not the Xbox 360's processor isn't that good enough to run home, but more that probably the architecture doesn't lend itself to that as much as the PS3 does?

[Rune_74]

Or maybe since there are really no games on the ps3 its just more believeable that people will use it for folding at home?

[Beelzebud]

Ah, nothing like a corporate pissing match over who the bigger philanthropist is.

[Serapth]

I don't believe such a project exists, which isn't really a bad thing. Sticking with something that more closely resembles a typical general purpose processor presumably kept costs down and made software development easier than it is on something from out of left field like the Cell.

So, the Cell is significantly better at scientific computation? Big deal, it has yet to prove itself significantly better at what we care about, which is gaming.

That is why it seems rather dumb of Microsoft to get nasty about it. It is like a candidate in a presidential debate giving the other person a hard time about coloring their hair.


Actually, with Folding there was an article in the past that the RSX GPU would actually be more capable then the CPU, with how it was designed. Additionally the three vectoring units in the Xenon would probrably be more effective then the general purpose core.

That said, anyone saying a 3 CPU + 3 vector unit + GPU + unified memory based machine wouldnt be worthwhile at distributed computing, is frankly an idiot or shill.

[Serapth]

Ah, nothing like a corporate pissing match over who the bigger philanthropist is.


Actually, we could ask for nothing better. Of all the reasons for two companys to get in a "whose dick is bigger" type contest, if the end result is more charity, we all win.

[the soUL TRAder]

Unfortunately for you Jack, the reason this story has "legs", (little coackroach ones too), is because of the PS3s tremendous ability to contribute to Folding@home, due to it's lack of content for entertainment purposes.

And I'm sure even 360s "crippled' computing would still be a welcome contribution to folding@home. I hope not though, the "folding@home killed my 360" threads would be unbearable.

[Khash]

F@H Game of the Year 2007

[DeejayKnight]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: release it on the 360 with a leaderboard and 200 achievement points. You'll cure cancer right there.

HAHAHAHAH!! Classic and true at the same time. :D

[Furious Wang]

I think its honorable that Sony is providing this service for F@H and I hope it really helps the program. I also think Moore's attempt to turn this into a PR battle was inexcusible. On the same page however, I find it almost pathetic that this Tretton guy says "Hey, Microsoft is turning this into a PR battle, shame on them" then turns around and says

Tretton went on to query whether Xbox 360 is even powerful enough to take part in such a project, stating, "I would guess that the medical community would take help from anywhere they could get it,

Both Moore and Tretton are on the borderline of acceptable PR speak and they should both step down from their positions if not resign from their respective companies entirely.

[LongStepMantis]

I love the way both sides have approached F@H.

It's nothing that guarantees results, but it's not like it's a goddamn GAME.

*** says Sony is probably wasting time on something they MIGHT not want to waste time on either.

Sony says *** sucks too much to help anyways.

It's good to know that the issue of medical research is so prevalent to them...I wouldn't want this project to be another "who has the biggest PR dick" between Sony and ***...oh wait, too late.

[TheStranger]

Just a little friendly note: Using *** doesn't lend credebility to anything you say ;)

[LongStepMantis]

Just a little friendly note: Using *** doesn't lend credebility to anything you say ;)

I wasn't aware that i needed any. *** :p
Microsoft will always be *** as far as I'm concerned.
And these forums and credibility don't really go together to begin with.

[Estarriol]

Tretton has had more crap come out of his mouth than I have out of my arse, but this time he's right. That was a low, low move by MS, and made lower by making me agree with Tretton.

[Schnoogs]

You really need to actually research the two processors, how they do calculations, and exactly why the PS3 would be so much better than the 360.

HUH???

My post never once mentioned the PS3...so I have no idea why you responded the way you did seeing as my post ONLY talked about the processing power of the current install base of 360's and how it exceeds the worlds fastest supercomputer.

Reading comprehension for the win!!