Are Indie Game Stores Dying?

[Kefkataran]

Another great article over on the new Next Gen site (http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=150&Itemid=2).

There’s comfort knowing that while games can be bought anywhere from Wal-mart to 7-11, a store like yours specializes in it and that’s got to mean something, right? Well, not really. Your two main competitors are both specialty game stores: GameStop and EB Games. Recently those two bastards just formed into a giant independent-store-swallowing Beast, and this new leviathan will stop at nothing until it replaces any small shop that threatens its sales.
Very interesting. We actually have an indie game store here. I ocassionally buy stuff from there, especially used things. I'd shop there a little more often, but the owner's kind of opinionated. He sort of remind me of, erm, Evil Avatar. Aw, but we love him for it. So what do you guys prefer? Indie stores or big name guys?

[Dirty Harry]

Indie stores hands down, plus they often have cheaper prices to compete with wallmart and the alike. It brought a tear to my eye when one of my favorite locals got bought up by microplay and then they jacked their prices up 20 bucks.

[Inspector Fowler]

I would shop at the indie stores but they never ever have what I want. It's not their fault. The suppliers don't ship them stuff. If you want a triple AAA title from an indie store in Northern CO, you gotta wait at least 1 week to 3 weeks after it's released.

As a rough example- if Gamestop in the mall gets 60 pre-order copies, a local store will get 5-10.

Not only that, but often they won't even buy my used stuff from me because they can't afford to have 600 copies of Halo 2 sitting around the store.

It's been at least a year since one of our indie stores got my money. If I'm going to pre-order it I get it online, and if I'm going to buy it at the store they usually don't have it anyway. That's sad because I really prefer the local "flavor" and the people who actually know what the hell they're talking about, but that doesn't help me if they don't also have my game!

[Borys]

Hehe, you're asking for it.

[sebastard]

There's a Microplay by my place here in Toronto that's about 4x closer than the next video game store that has any decent select (EB Games in the Eaton Centre), and while Microplay isn't exactly an "indie" store, they are still franchised and independently owned and operated.

I know the guy who owns the store, and he's a good chap, and his employees are knowledgeable and helpful.

I would much rather give them my money when I shop for games. The problem? They get nothing on time. New games arrive there a good week later than at EB Games, and when they get copies, they get 3 to 5 and that's it.

I've talked to them about it, and they acknowledges the problem (which only happens with PC games, console games are a-plenty on release day) and he says there's not much they can do about it. Distributors favour the big box stores (Best Buy etc) and the larger game shops like EB Games and smaller shops just get what they can, when they can, and usually end up at the back of the queue.

Even pre-orders don't get priority, and you get a call a week after it's been on the shelves at Best Buy..

But for used stuff these guys kick ass. They have a bin of 19$ PS2 games that regularly has gems in it (I picked up Spiderman 2 a few weeks back), and they have a used DVD movies bin that starts at 8$.

[Heretic Machine]

The only indie gamestore I've even seen is a few hours away from the dorms I live in most of the year. Hell, it's an hour away from my home, which is hours away from my dorms. They are a LAN cafe/Game store, and they were great for a while. But then they pretty much turned into a cheap baby-sitting service since kids could go there and pay like $8 to play until midnight... The grade-A parents in the area are more than willing to give them that cash every-single-day to get rid of their beloved children.

I don't go there anymore.

[bapenguin]

Hehe, you're asking for it.

Yeah...I wasn't sure if I should approve it.... :confused:

[Kish]

As one of these almost to be indie shops I can tell you one thing. The margins they offer small stores makes it very hard to compete. When I first looked into it (think with Ingram) they had titles that go for 49.99 listed as 44.99 and 47.99.. or something crazy like that.

[hideouslywrinkled]

Aren't indie game stores already dead? The only ones in my area sell used games and only used games.

Except for a rare few indies, margins on games are too small for an indie to really make money.

The nature of the industry really favors big corporate stores who can receive volume discounts. It's kind of like the movie theater business and the video store business.

[Kefkataran]

Felt I should quantify the fact that there's a good indie store here with the fact that I live in a small town. Even better, it's a small college town. So, really he doesn't have the major competition that most indie places would be facing.

Hehe, you're asking for it.

I was just kidding, mostly. Heh. I may have a love/hate relationship with Mr. Evil, but I cannot deny that he's at least interesting to read. Plus he has a super-successful site that I go to every day. So really, can't complain. (I'll edit the OP if EA or you guys really think it's out of line. I certainly wouldn't mean to cause trouble.)

I would shop at the indie stores but they never ever have what I want. It's not their fault. The suppliers don't ship them stuff. If you want a triple AAA title from an indie store in Northern CO, you gotta wait at least 1 week to 3 weeks after it's released.


the indie store here does a surprisingly great job of keeping stocked up. I work at an indie CD/book/comics shop in town, and we don't do half as well as this guy. It's really impressive. I'm not sure how he does it.

The only indie gamestore I've even seen is a few hours away from the dorms I live in most of the year. Hell, it's an hour away from my home, which is hours away from my dorms. They are a LAN cafe/Game store, and they were great for a while. But then they pretty much turned into a cheap baby-sitting service since kids could go there and pay like $8 to play until midnight... The grade-A parents in the area are more than willing to give them that cash every-single-day to get rid of their beloved children.


That's one of the other probs I have with the local place. It's also a LAN/gaming center and is constantly full of these whiny kids and/or nerdy elitist types. I think it's where the owner gets his attitude, so that drives me away from just going in there to hang out.

(ADDED TO OP):
Edit: Felt I should quantify the fact that there's a good indie store here with the fact that I live in a smallllll town. Even better, it's a small college town. So, really he doesn't have the major competition that most indie places would be facing.

[Heretic Machine]

Kefka, do you happen to live in Virginia...?

[Kefkataran]

I do not, Perigon. Minnesota. Why?

[Heretic Machine]

Ahh, thought we could of been talking about the same place :p

[Deadend]

No indie game stores here that I know off, but there are 2 gamestops across the street from each other preety much.

I feel bad for the little guy in this, but the way to survive is to sell used games, but the big guys get in on that too.

Maybe running a LAN center will give more hope? As BF2 doesnt run on many computers... of course where I live, damn near everyone can afford a computer that is up to snuff.

[netcraazzy]

Good article to read, very sad but very true. When I was in high school I used to daydream about owning my own local games store. Then when I was in college I did a little bit of investigation into it and came to the same sad realization that the author of this article speaks of. It's really a shame too because I hate buying games at Bestbuy, Circuit City, Target, Wal-Mart. Their selection usually sucks, the employees are often dumb and the display is usually a mess. I generally go to EB or Gamestop but even specialty shops like that can't compare to a local shop.

[TheEpicOfTyler]

We have an indie store that is a rental place, and a store, they get alot of business.

[eatme]

This is an awesome column! Thanks for posting it.

[Goronmon]

I have yet to find an indy gaming store whether it be at home or at school.

If anyone knows of a good place around Nashua, NH or Worcester, MA, let me know ;)

[Rommel]

One of the great things about indie stores is the owner has the authority to change the price on old and used products. Corporate stores will have games for years, failing to realize that "Hm... maybe we can clear this space-using invewntory and actually make some of our investment back if we slash the prices on these Sega Genesis Madden carts."

[TrackZero]

Very interesting. We actually have an indie game store here. I ocassionally buy stuff from there, especially used things. I'd shop there a little more often, but the owner's kind of an opinionated dick. He sort of remind me of, erm, Evil Avatar. Aw, but we love him for it. So what do you guys prefer? Indie stores or big name guys?

Edit: Felt I should quantify the fact that there's a good indie store here with the fact that I live in a smallllll town. Even better, it's a small college town. So, really he doesn't have the major competition that most indie places would be facing.

I have an indie store too, right underneath my local EB games. Except again, the staff there are all egotistical pricks who wouldn't know a good game if it bit them in the ass. I've only ever bought 2 games in there.

1) Messiah. Because it was there for 10 bucks and I'd never gotten around to purchasing it. I ended up having to wait 15 minutes while the entire staff finished up their mutliplayer game of Halo they were having behind the counter before I could pay for it.

2) Megaman Battle Network 2. Because it was sold out everywhere else. What happened when I asked for it? The 12 year old, working behind the counter (I shit you not) called me childish for playing a kids game.

I bet they wonder why they don't get any business either. Give me an EB Games any day of the week.

[AspectVoid]

When I was a kid (oh, 10 to 15 years ago) there was an Indie store a couple blocks from me. They went out of business when I was 12 or so, though, and there hasn't been one since. It was really too bad, because they were a game rental place as well, and had great deals. $4 to keep a game for a week, or 3 for $10 for a week.

[Kefkataran]

This is an awesome column! Thanks for posting it.

I'm becoming pretty impressed with the new Next Gen site. Let's hope they can keep pumping out interesting stuff like this.

What happened when I asked for it? The 12 year old, working behind the counter (I shit you not) called me childish for playing a kids game.


Ugh. Terrible. Yeah, I remember when I first moved here last summer I tried getting a job at the game place. Or, rather, I tried applying for a job. I asked the owner for an app, and he gruffly informed me they weren't hiring. One year later, I'm pretty relieved.

[Skookum]

Toronto used to have a couple of amazing independent game stores on Yonge street, just a few blocks south of Bloore. They closed down a couple of years ago though. Now, most game stores are really just LAN cafe's where most people go to check their Email. I live in a small town now, and I go out of my way to shop at the local indie store. There are two EB's and a Future Shop within a 5 minute drive from my house though, so I wouldn't be surprised if the indie closes. Lame because it's way more fun to walk through a store dedicated to games, with a staff that's been working there for a few years, than either an electronics store with a comission sales staff or an EB with "dork of the month" at the counter. (Just kidding, I love you EB employees. Is that a copy of BF2 there? What's that? You'll sell it to me when what flies? Yes I'm leaving now, you can put down the phone.)

[Dirty Harry]

if they sold old sega games for like 2 bucks a pop, man they would freaking fly like hot cakes.

[XxSATANxX]

Every single one of the INDIE stores by me are DOA.

Gamestop will have 5000 stores by this time next year.

Frankly, I'd pay more for a good indie store that would connect with me as a Gamer.

Example: Falcon 4 Allied force (Falcon 4 redux MUCH IMPROVED) will not be in my local EB or GS but Walmart will have. So what they have trained me to do is just shop price and only price.

I want to wallow in my hobby and going to the store used to be a way to do that.
Now it's just console games and nothing else. Might as well go to Walmart. God that sucks!

[Heretic Machine]

2) Megaman Battle Network 2. Because it was sold out everywhere else. What happened when I asked for it? The 12 year old, working behind the counter (I shit you not) called me childish for playing a kids game.

Once again proving my theory that kids don't play "kiddy" games. Meaning that the Gamecube has the most mature fan-base of the current generation :p

[KNOTE]

Welcome to post-walmart America. Nothing but strip malls and chain stores as far as the eye can see. Don't like it? Don't shop at chain stores. If you do, don't complain.

The indie stores seem to have moved online.

[Derwin]

Here in the heart of Manhattan we have tons of stores that are no wider than six feet but stock every vintage video game you can think of, and the rarest of the rare
Japanese imports that you'd never think to see in person. They do well, and they're great.

[Goronmon]

Welcome to post-walmart America. Nothing but strip malls and chain stores as far as the eye can see. Don't like it? Don't shop at chain stores. If you do, don't complain.
But what if its the choice betwee, Wal-Mart, EBGames, Best Buy, or Gamespot? Should I just stop buying games?

[Kefkataran]

The indie stores seem to have moved online.

I think that's a valid and fairly strong point.

[EternalGamer]

I have often thought about how much I'd rather support an independant gameshop than one of the corporate monoliths, but the problems listed above are the reasons why I don't. The sad thing is, the disappearance of this type of shop gives the big names places even less reason to court/create a similar type of atmosphere.

I used to work for Gamestop back when it was still called Babbages (before and during the Software Etc. merger). Gradually, I noticed a change in the focus of the store. I worked there as a manager for 4 years and it was originally about good customer service and knowledge. I had a lot of regulars I talked to quite often and would come to me for recommendations. I got paid to talk about and sell videogames. Life was good.

But then the store increasingly become about statistics tracking because of corporate pressure. Every employees sales were tracked individually. If you didn't sell add ons (called MSTs-MUltiple Sales Transactions) in at least 1/3 of your sales, you got serious pressure put on you. If you didn't reserve say 5 or 10 copies of whatever game you were suppose to be pushing at the time, the same. The number of things we had to suggest to every customer got to be ridiculious: strategy guides, reservations, magazine subscriptions, trade ins, memory cards, etc. Now I noticed they have even started adding "game insurance" to that list.

With the increase in this type of sales environment I noticed more and more people being hired who knew very little about games, but had no beef with putting lots of sales pressure on customers. Eventually these people were replaced with people that both knew about games, AND could put lots of sales pressure on (devious little beasts are these). I am glad I left when I did, because everytime I enter a gamestore it seems worse. Every conversation with these super-employees makes my skin crawl. It is incredibly obvious how inauthentic they are being when they are trying to make small talk with you. True story: during the last months of my working at Babbages we actually got in these portfolios that taught us how to start small talk conversations with people to lead to sales and we had to role play starting conversations with phrases such as "So did you watch the football game last night?" or "Any vacation plans this year?" These types of questions were preferred because they were more "warm" and specific than the more pragmatic and potentially closed off "Anything I can help you with?" With the latter someone can just say no and get rid of you. With the former, you have trapped them in a conversation and can proceed to weasel your way to a sale. I have actually had several salesmen try these questions on me since Have left. I proceed to be rude and abruptly tell them I am just looking.

Everytime I enter one of these stores now, I can see behind the employees' eyes how they are just sizing me up as another potential boost of the sales stastics that will make them champions in the eyes of their corporate peers. I recently bought one of those Game Informer Subs because I was purchasing quite a few games in the recent Buy 2 Get 1 Free sale at Gamestop and it made it to my advantage to do so. On one hand, I felt like I was doing the guy a favor because I Know the type of pressure he probably had on him and my large used game purchase and Subscription probably helped his sales day alot. On the other hand, I felt like I was perpetuating and implicitly supporting a sales system I absolutely abhor.

Currently my local EB games tends to be much more laid back and friendly, while my Gamestop makes me feel slimy everytime I talk to those guys. However with the recent merger, I'm sure that EB will be "streamlined" to match the sales environment of the more "efficient" Gamestop. Eventually I will probably just start going to Walmart for all my game purchases, because at least the people there leave you alone and let you shop. This to me is at least better than the perpetual barrage of salespitches disguised as friendliness. You know things are getting bad when you shop at Walmart because it makes you feel LESS participatory in corporate greed.

... And this is not to even discuss the next-gen propaganda circulating now by the 1st parties and major publishers making the game industry seem even more and more like a very thin illusion to a money grabbing ruse. ... Sometimes I really hate this hobby that I love so much...

Dan

[Dirty Harry]

one of my favorite things about indie shops is when they have games set up for you to play and sometimes we just dick around for an hour seeing who can get the best score in gta (when the manager isnt busy of course).

[VsSelf]

I didn't even know there were such a thing as indie game stores! Westchester County does that to a person. The closest thing to an indie store I know of around here is a Funcoland. There used to be an absolutely enormous combo comic/card/game/nerd-hangout shop in the area called Dragon's Den. I kid you not, this place was the size of an upscale sports arena (Just to give you an idea of the sheer enormity of the place, it was replaced by both a full-sized Barnes & Noble and a full-sized Best Buy). Went out of business when I was 12. They had literally 20-30 tables laid out for people to just play tabletop games, and it was one of the only places that I could really go to and hang out as a kid...the kind of place where overweight scruffy men were more than happy to teach you the ins-and-outs of comic book care and spitball fights would break out between the D&D side and the then-upstart Magic: The Gathering crowd. I don't think places like that even exist anymore.

[EternalGamer]

Welcome to post-walmart America. Nothing but strip malls and chain stores as far as the eye can see. Don't like it? Don't shop at chain stores. If you do, don't complain.

The indie stores seem to have moved online.

It's great that the expansiveness/flexibility of the internet does not allow for real estate domination (at least, not yet), but most of us do not live or find our sense of community online. We seek to find it in the geographical spaces that we physically inhabit. A gaming shop, for those of us involved in this hobby, is not just about a commodity, it is about a community, a sense of community that is every bit as irreplacable as the local baker, grocer, farmer's market. If we engage with nothing but faceless entities in the real world (or people who are just puppets for faceless entities) it becomes very easily to no longer think about individuals or communities that lie behind the commodity. It becomes all about the commodification and the mechanization of people as a means of production. I sort of like interacting with people in the real world, but beyond that, I think there is something much deeper at stake.

Dan
.

[KDups]

I recently bought one of those Game Informer Subs because I was purchasing quite a few games in the recent Buy 2 Get 1 Free sale at Gamestop and it made it to my advantage to do so.

Oh man I did the exact same thing. They roped us in good with that sale, I feel so dirty.

The worst thing about the big stores? Whenever I call I have to wait 20 minutes while they finish their pickup routine. "Thanks for calling EBGames your Halo headquarters preorder Halo 3 for $10 down to reserve your copy trade in any old game to put towards the purchase of any new game this is Ken how can I help you?" Yeah, I had a 2 second question. PLEASE STFU.

I used to frequent a local rental/retail store when I was a kid in Wisconsin. It was awesome, once I got to know the owner and employees I would just ride my bike over there and hang out for hours on end. It wasn't about getting free games and discounts, it was just a fun place to hang out and talk with everyone. I could never imagine doing that in a Blockbuster or EB.

[Liquidize105]

Yeah...I wasn't sure if I should approve it.... :confused:
Edit it a lil wouldn't hurt.

[AspectVoid]

It was awesome, once I got to know the owner and employees I would just ride my bike over there and hang out for hours on end. It wasn't about getting free games and discounts, it was just a fun place to hang out and talk with everyone. I could never imagine doing that in a Blockbuster or EB.


2 or 3 years ago I did that at my local Gamestop. Well, not biked since I'm in my 20s, but I did walk since it was only 2 blocks away. The guys there were cool, didn't pressure me with anything, and we talked about everything from games to their family lives to how my classes were going. They were just good guys to hang out with. They were also share the wealth guys, which caught me completely off guard when they started giving me their leftover promo stuff.

Then, when Gamestop really started pressuring them about following that bullshit fake happiness philosophy they all quit, and I got left with drones. So it is possible to do it, you just need to get lucky and have the right guys working there.

[Royal Fool]

Reading that article made the gamer inside me die a little. So depressing.

[Rommel]

Funcoland

Funcoland still exists?!

I don't think places like that even exist anymore.

http://www.neutralground.com/

[Kefkataran]

Edit it a lil wouldn't hurt.

Good edit. Probably how I should have put it in the first place.

[Maskatron]

I support little indie places when it comes to coffee and stuff like that, but there's not really any indie games stores around that have a decent selection. There is one in my town that has used and new console stuff, but most console stuff I tend to rent anyway. So I end up buying most of my games online or onsale at Best Buy or CompUSA. Frys is too far.

[Liquidize105]

Also moved your edit to your first post in the thread. Reason is there was lil too much rant up there.

[Kefkataran]

fair enough. Heh.

[didragondi]

I reside in the Indianapolis, In area and nearby in Fort Wayne and Fishers, IN, they have a place called McVans, also McVans.com online. they have like four or five stores, one of which sells pc games whereas the others do not, and they have incredibly good trade policy. I traded bards tale for oddworld strangers wrath on xbox when both are relatively new, and I owed 8 bucks. 8bucks, for one new game for another.

[didragondi]

Just looked again at McVans website and aside from the color, it really looks like they are not even trying to make it an online shop, because there are tons of used games there not listed on the site, like X box as a platform for instance, they have two full displays of used games for. I guess since used games is a market that cycles, thats a hard thing to keep updated. However, if you live in Indianapolis, there is one nearby in Fishers, and if you are in Ft Wayne or even nearby in Western Ohio, it is worth the drive, especially if you are trading in more than one game.

[Zurik]

EternalGamer, I completely sympathize with what you're talking about. I never worked at EB or Gamestop(interviewed a few times)but had the same kind of policy at Waldenbooks and Hollywood video where I worked. I never really worked up a salesman attitude, always felt like the customer didn't care(which I'm sure was true in most cases) and generally sucked. I always had better sales when I could talk to a customer, person to person, about a movie or book. How can big businesses not understand that's what sells their product? Not mindless pushing things on people.

[sithspaun]

I work at an indie game store in Eugene, OR called Big City Gamin. The way we manage to get by (actually, we do very well) is by separating ourselves from the competition. There is no way an independent store can compete with a big chain, so we take a three-fold approach: 1. we have a very distinct look and feel to our store, very much like a post-apocalyptic setting (which has given has TONS of attention, our store was just used as a setting for a playboy photo shoot) 2. We offer $1 a day rentals and we get all the hottest DVD's the day of release and the newest games anywhere from the release date to two days afterwards 3. We offer a gaming stadium where people can pay $4 an hour to play in one of the 8 stadium tv's we have or $6 an hour for the big screens. These aren't just crappy tv's that we've thrown together; they're 36" tv's bought brand new a few years ago, lined up 4 on each side with 2 sides, each side sits 12-16 people. This makes for an awesome environment for tournaments and parties. These three things that separate us are all on top of the normal aspects of a regular game store (buy/sell/trade). When the owner started the store, there were around 5 local game stores in the city, now we're the only one. We even do better than our nearest competitor, a GameCrazy. There is still hope for indie game stores, you just have to be original. If you wanna see what we're about, check out www.bigcitygamin.com. They're looking to franchise, so sign up and post on the forums if you'd like to see one in a town near you.

[Royal Fool]

sithspaun, it all sounds really nice, but holy crap... that store you're talking about sounds very costly to maintain. And how do you get all the newest games/DVDs first with no problems regarding distributors, seeing as how you're a indie store? Good PR, maybe... but still. :P

Sounds very nice, anyway.

[mister_slim]

One problem with EB and GameStop is that they are too dependent on malls. It's expensive footage, in-and-out shopping is a pain, and there are generally others stores (Best Buy, CC, etc) just a short walk away.

[sithspaun]

We have a pretty good relationship with our distributor, but that being said, most of our games do come about a day or two after release, though usually no later. And it really isn't very costly to maintain, at least not any more so than any other game store. We have a bigger initial startup cost because of the stadiums and such, but after that, it doesn't cost that much more to have. And rentals generate quite a bit of income as well. We also just get all our DVD's from the other stores around town, which is why we get those on time.

[Himsa II]

The indie store near me is so goddamn small, and its always full of sweaty asian guys. :( The cashiers are friendlier in those stores though. Indie all the way. :)

[Zulu107]

Where I am in Cali, the Indie stores are good competition with the Gamestop/EB. Plus we have Gamecrazy here also, so the SF Bay Area are good grounds for indie. Difference is when you ask at a Indie store, you can actually play or get good info on upcoming and released games...in Gamestop/EB its a big joke. Plus they will let you try a game before you buy.

[Heretic Machine]

I didn't even know there were such a thing as indie game stores! Westchester County does that to a person. The closest thing to an indie store I know of around here is a Funcoland. There used to be an absolutely enormous combo comic/card/game/nerd-hangout shop in the area called Dragon's Den. I kid you not, this place was the size of an upscale sports arena (Just to give you an idea of the sheer enormity of the place, it was replaced by both a full-sized Barnes & Noble and a full-sized Best Buy). Went out of business when I was 12. They had literally 20-30 tables laid out for people to just play tabletop games, and it was one of the only places that I could really go to and hang out as a kid...the kind of place where overweight scruffy men were more than happy to teach you the ins-and-outs of comic book care and spitball fights would break out between the D&D side and the then-upstart Magic: The Gathering crowd. I don't think places like that even exist anymore.

Well, places like that do exist... but as far as I know, not on that scale o.o Sounds like a friggin gaming convention that just took root or somthing.

One problem with EB and GameStop is that they are too dependent on malls. It's expensive footage, in-and-out shopping is a pain, and there are generally others stores (Best Buy, CC, etc) just a short walk away.

I would definetly disagree with you there. They've both gotten impulse buys from me simply because they were in the mall. If they hadn't been, I wouldn't of been buying a game that day, since I usually end up going to the mall for Suncoast.

[Cuba]

I wanted to create an online games store a few years back, so I sent off for price lists to see if it was actually profitable, the margin was very small: ~20% as mentioned, I could have probably handled that, but the thing that killed my idea right from the start was the minimum order.

Each distributor, of which there was about 4, required a minimum order of AUD$5000. So I would have spent ~$10000 (to have a decent choice you have to order from at least two distributors) and had about 150 games before I have even started.

I get my games from CD-Wow now, I just bought GTA:SA for AUD$65, which is a very good price for a new release game in Australia, everywhere else had it for around $80-$90. I got Empire Earth 2 for $35 too, if you can believe that, that's at least half of what other stores had it for.