CNN: Where Sony Went Wrong

[Kamalot]

CNN takes a look at Sony's PS3 (http://money.cnn.com/2007/04/27/magazines/business2/sony_playstation.biz2/index.htm?postversion=2007042710) in order to learn a few lessons of what not to do when developing consumer electronics. The news organization states, "PlayStation 3 has already lost this round of the console wars" and delves a bit deeper to look at why some of the key decisions were made including, expensive technology, larger untapped markets, and how the PS3 was developed as a Trojan Horse for other Sony technologies.For Nintendo, the number 3 company in the videogames business, it's a David-vs.-Goliath turnaround. For Kutaragi's team, who ruled the roost of this industry for 12 years, it's a shameful final defeat.

There are a number of lessons we can glean from this -- not just for the future of videogame consoles, but the future of consumer electronics. Decades from now, PS3 vs. Wii will be remembered as a cautionary business tale: how pride, politics, and an overabundance of technology can blind you to the simple truth of what consumers want.No doubt, there is a lot we can learn from other's mistakes, but is it too early to call the PS3 a shameful defeat for Sony?

[Sandman]

Not surprised to see your name here Kamalot. And it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too early to call it a defeat for Sony. Waaaaaaay too early.

[Gorvi]

Any crowning of a winner or loser this generation, or calling one console a success or failure, is extremely premature.

[CaptStu]

Not surprised to see your name here Kamalot. And it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too early to call it a defeat for Sony. Waaaaaaay too early.

It's CNN calling it a defeat. Don't shoot the messenger.

Geez. The SDF arrived quickly this go-around.

[51|RandoM]

No doubt, there is a lot we can learn from other's mistakes, but is it too early to call the PS3 a defeat for Sony?

Well, they say that the Wii won this generation already, which I don't believe. It is going to be WiiAdvance 2 years from now, just watch, which kind of screws with the concept of console generation wars.

Most of the things he said they did wrong was because they didn't do it the same way Nintendo did with the Wii. I don't know about the rest of you, but one Wii is enough, I don't need one from Sony too.

I can't believe Sandman, Gorvi, and I replied so quickly to this. :D:o:rolleyes:

[Morratut]

I think it's still far too early to say the PS3 is a failure.

Sony will do ok this generation.

Nintendo isn't the leader of my gaming world. I'll never buy a Wii.

[Klunka]

I think it's easy to immediately label this a failure because with Sony's previous outings, they pretty much had things won right out of the gate.

With this generation, it's not really like Microsoft began to beat Sony. So far it just looks like Sony shooting themselves in the foot.

[KingGorilla]

This just in from ABC, Rome not built in a day.

[Heretic Machine]

Unless the price drops within the next year, it will never hit the mainstream. This Christmas, 2007, will be the deciding battle in this generation's console wars. Whoever is on top in January is going to stay on top until the new consoles start popping up. No significant portion of the gaming population is going to be buying a $600 console for Christmas this year. Since I doubt that Sony will be dropping the price of the PS3 down to $400 to be competitive with the 360 Premium (or the Elite, which could very easily be dropped into the $400 price slot), I'd say that calling it a game for them would be perfectly fine at this point.

They could still turn it into a profitable venture, maybe, but it isn't going to come out on top this generation as far as the install base goes (and thus, the amount of exclusive titles). The Wii and the 360 will be the real contenders this generation.

[CaptStu]

This just in from ABC, Rome not built in a day.

How is that a proper analogy? The Playstation brand has been around for many, many years.

[Kamalot]

How much impact will places like CNN have on making the PS3 a defeat? I mean, if people read CNN.com, Business 2,0 or other popular news sources, and they read these respected publications calling the PS3 a defeat, will they believe it and just pass over the console thinking it is a has-been before it ever was?

Holy run-on-sentence Batman!

Edit: IF the PS3 turns out not being this generation's leader, how long will it be before the Sony fans actually start admitting the fact that their console isn't #1?

[Serapth]

Most of the things he said they did wrong was because they didn't do it the same way Nintendo did with the Wii. I don't know about the rest of you, but one Wii is enough, I don't need one from Sony too.


Agreed. One Wii is enough, if the Wii is successful enough that both Sony and Microsoft emulate it, will probrably be the day I quit gaming. Wii is a fun toy, but thats about it.

[KingGorilla]

How is that a proper analogy? The Playstation brand has been around for many, many years.
Well, considering that the PS1 and PS2 got off to MUCH slower retail starts than the PS3, I think that it is a very apt analogy. If Sony has to start recalling consoles left and right or Blu-Ray suddenly gets eradicated(god I hope so), then doom can be said for Sony.

[CaptStu]

How much impact will places like CNN have on making the PS3 a defeat? I mean, if people read CNN.com, Business 2,0 or other popular news sources, and they read these respected publications calling the PS3 a defeat, will they believe it and just pass over the console thinking it is a has-been before it ever was?

It may have an adverse effect on the PS3, especially for the parents looking to buy a console for their children.

[Flatpicker]

Not to be contrary but I think the fight is already over and Sony lost.
It's not about numbers. It hasn't been since the Genesis/Snes days.
It's about public conception. And also who is the media darling in this race.

Back in the PS1 days the mass media were all over Sony because they were the TV people and were praised for their entry into the console business. More good media exposure = more sales.
Now the Business weeks, Cnn's, and such of the world have latched onto the Wii.
It doesn't matter if the PS3 is a better console. The media hype has been all for Nintendo.
So yeah, in the fight for this generations mindshare, it's over.

[bean19]

This guy didn't do his research all that well. He points at all the technology in the PS3 as being expensive when it has pretty much the same specs as those in the 360. It's the Blu-Ray player that is the big increased expense.

[Roc Ingersol]

It's pretty clear the PS3 is not doing well. And it's definitely not doing well compared to the expectations everyone had when investments were made.

If the PS3 wasn't in trouble, Krazy Ken would still have his run of the place.
They're not out, but they're definitely down.

And people don't care what anyone has to say about winners or losers in the console war. They just know the PS3 still costs 5-600 goddamm dollars. That's the only 'problem' Sony has to address.

[Camel]

All this instant analysis stuff is getting old. And I can't believe some of you guys aren't getting tired of just repeating the same stuff over and over again.

Let's just sit back and enjoy some games, and then in a few years we can all get caught up again on who should be winning the race.

[eth3rton]

I personally don't think that the PS3 and Wii are competing. They are geared towards two different types of Gamers. I'm not saying that the Wii isn't capable of good graphics but the PS3 delivers on this no problem... the Wii not so much... At least not as well as the PS3 or Xbox360.

[Kamalot]

Well, considering that the PS1 and PS2 got off to MUCH slower retail starts than the PS3, I think that it is a very apt analogy. If Sony has to start recalling consoles left and right or Blu-Ray suddenly gets eradicated(god I hope so), then doom can be said for Sony.
PS3 launched in Japan and N. America at roughly the same time. Of COURSE the system sold faster than the PS1/2 which launched separately, months apart WITH supply shortages. The market is bigger these days too, I should HOPE that they system sold faster than the PS1/2.

No matter if it is Sony's fastest selling console, Wii is still selling faster.

[51|RandoM]

Edit: IF the PS3 turns out not being this generation's leader, how long will it be before the Sony fans actually start admitting the fact that their console isn't #1?

Are there Sony fans out there stating that the PS3 is #1? I've not seen it.

That said, I'm still waiting for a next generation console to dethrone the PS2, and I'll probably be waiting at least another year for that. ;)

[KingGorilla]

Some of you guys are drastically overestimating the significance of CNN. Leo Laporte, Diggnation, and The Totally Rad show have more exposure.

[Gorvi]

I personally don't think that the PS3 and Wii are competing. They are geared towards two different types of Gamers. I'm not saying that the Wii isn't capable of good graphics but the PS3 delivers on this no problem... the Wii not so much... At least not as well as the PS3 or Xbox360.
The Wii and the PS2 are competing, and the 360 and PS3 are competing. The sooner Sony latches on to that fact, the better off they'll be.

[Heretic Machine]

Agreed. One Wii is enough, if the Wii is successful enough that both Sony and Microsoft emulate it, will probrably be the day I quit gaming. Wii is a fun toy, but thats about it.

I don't know, it really depends on how the Wii is utilized. It has the potential to support all sorts of games and control schemes, not just the whole motion control thing. Thus far, many games have support for classic/GC controllers built it, along with motion control. It can work well that way too, check out DBZ: Tenkaichi Budokai 2. I would of been much more comfortable with the Wii if it had included the classic controller add-on in the box though, so that developers could assume that one is available to everyone who owns a Wii.

I want the new control scheme, as well as classic controls for games as well. I want both to be available to me, on the Wii. Hopefully Nintendo sees things the same way and doesn't force the motion control. The DS has succeeded in having a nice mesh of classic controls for many games, and touch screen controls for others, and sometimes an appealing application of both.

[Karmakin]

It depends on the definition of the term "failure".

If by failure we mean 3D0/Saturn/CD-I level sales. Then no, the PS3 won't be a failure. If by failure we mean GameCube, then it probably will be.

In any case, I think at this point, the only thing we do know is that Sony's plan of using their brand power to sell an expensive trojan horse for Blu-Ray into millions of homes failed, and failed big-time.

Not that it's clear that they won't be able to do it, but they'll have to make it less expensive, and focus more on games than brand.

[51|RandoM]

I personally don't think that the PS3 and Wii are competing. They are geared towards two different types of Gamers. I'm not saying that the Wii isn't capable of good graphics but the PS3 delivers on this no problem... the Wii not so much... At least not as well as the PS3 or Xbox360.

They are competing. Tortoise and hare were each running the race in their own way, but both were still in the race.

Call of Duty 3 ring a bell? It is on PS3, 360, and Wii. That seems like competition to me.

[eth3rton]

The Wii and the PS2 are competing, and the 360 and PS3 are competing. The sooner Sony latches on to that fact, the better off they'll be.

Exactly. The Wii is a last generation system with a next generation (not IMO) controller. Well the Wii Arcade (or whatever they call it) is a definite welcome...

[drakkarim]

now i remember why i stopped listening to all the BS that comes out of CNN a few years ago.

[Dag-Sabot]

Whether its true or not is somewhat overshadowed by the fact that busines 2.0 on CNN believes it is.

Wolf Blitzer: "DOOOOMED"

[Serapth]

They are competing. Tortoise and hare were each running the race in their own way, but both were still in the race.


That fable is just fucking retarded. We tried it out in real life, I pitted my Rabbit against a friends Turtle, and the rabbit kicked the living piss out of it, time and time again. Christ, me damned near had to push the turtle to even get it to move.

[KingGorilla]

That fable is just fucking retarded. We tried it out in real life, I pitted my Rabbit against a friends Turtle, and the rabbit kicked the living piss out of it, time and time again. Christ, me damned near had to push the turtle to even get it to move.
http://www.digitalpimponline.com/tvb/

Who will win?

[bean19]

Unless the price drops within the next year, it will never hit the mainstream. This Christmas, 2007, will be the deciding battle in this generation's console wars. Whoever is on top in January is going to stay on top until the new consoles start popping up.

Not necessarily.

1. No one has really gone after the Wii for it's faults yet. You still see the gaming media treating Nintendo like their kid brother who just caught his first pop-fly.

2. The PS3 still has an insane following. You're right that they have to get their price down to mainstream, but it won't happen by the end of this year. I don't think they can get to $250 even by the end of 2008. . . well, maybe, hopefully for them.

3. The 360 is still ahead by several millions and the Wii isn't taking advantage of the media honeymoon they are getting with these shortages. Because of the shortages, the Wii only outsold the 360 by 60K in the U.S. in March. Even if you consider that the Wii is outselling the 360 better in Japan where the 360 is still the evil American console (or whatever - for fuck's sake they have Blue Dragon and Eternal Sonata now and the system isn't selling), then it is probably only closing that gap by 200K - and that's being optimistic. With Halo 3 coming out as well as the rest of the huge fall line-up, and a likely price-drop, the 360 will probably be ahead by the end of the 2007. . . but the Wii could still take it eventually.

[NeoSuplex]

Too early to call the PS3 a defeat? No. They were marketshare leader last gen... they are currently in last and losing ground. As momentum based as this industry is, they won't make first place in this generation. Not gonna happen.

Too early to call the PS3 a final defeat? Yeah. I'm not convinced that we won't see a PS4.
Shameful defeat? Well... the other guy is called 'Wii'...

[Crenor]

Sony has lost because they will not have their +70% of the market share. The Wii has won because they are doing waaaayyyyy better than expected.

Simple reason - CHEAP. Most parrents do not know anything about what they are buying for their kids. All they see is - new and $$. The Wii is way cheaper than anything else, end of story.

How can the Xbox360 or PS3 gain alot more ground, they need the price of the system to be <$300 and within 2 years <$200. If the price does not drop to this range, neither will do as well as the Wii will.

I know people that are not buying any new system and just getting a Normal Xbox or PS2 since they are in the $100 price range. Price is king, not the tech running the system.

[Serapth]

http://www.digitalpimponline.com/tvb/

Who will win?


. SFW?

[KingGorilla]

Oh, yeah, it is a webcomic site.

[BabyJesus]

I like the wii, its a sold piece of hardware, but all I've wanted to use it for is Wii sports and the Gamecube emu. Other than that.. Well it least the kids use it some, but they still prefer the Ps2 and original XBOX we have at home.

[Philonious]

Too early to tell. Give the PS3 a price drop and some GAMES, then we'll have a race. I just hope it happens before it is too late. The PSP was labeled with lacking games early on, and despite that changing, people still seem to believe it. Reputations stick in this industry.

[Vandenh]

PS3 will probably end up being the leader by a small margin. That already is defeat for Sony.

[Dr.Finger]

Some of you guys are drastically overestimating the significance of CNN. Leo Laporte, Diggnation, and The Totally Rad show have more exposure.You really think three podcasts, no matter how popular, have more significance than CNN?

[Kamalot]

You really think three podcasts, no matter how popular, have more significance than CNN?
Cable TV is such a fad anyway. :rolleyes:

[Royal Fool]

You really think three podcasts, no matter how popular, have more significance than CNN?
I thought that was an odd way of thinking, myself. Digg may be popular on the internet, but that's about it.

Are there Sony fans out there stating that the PS3 is #1? I've not seen it.
Chad Warden. :D

[KingGorilla]

You really think three podcasts, no matter how popular, have more significance than CNN?
I used them as an example, and Yes, they are more significant. The viewership of CNN and all cable news is paltry and pathetic at best.

[silv]

The PS3 is currently significantly behind in market share against the Wii and PS3, and it is also losing ground faster and faster. The distance is only growing.

The only thing that can save it is great games, but so far 360 is winning the exclusives war by a large margin.

It may be too early to close the coffin, but it may not be too early to start digging the hole.

[Kamalot]

I used them as an example, and Yes, they are more significant. The viewership of CNN and all cable news is paltry and pathetic at best.
Step away from the purple Kool Aid.

[CaptStu]

I used them as an example, and Yes, they are more significant. The viewership of CNN and all cable news is paltry and pathetic at best.

Don't know about all of that. :rolleyes:

And this is just online.

Did you know?
* CNN.com's average monthly usage boasts total site page views at 1.6 billion, including 812 million pages views to the home page alone. Average monthly unique users to CNN are at 26.4 million P2+.
* CNN mobile worldwide is available to 333 million wireless data subscribers.
* CNN mobile domestic is available to 59 million wireless data subscribers.
* CNN.com ranks #1 among mobile news providers.
* Broadband video usage on CNN.com has nearly doubled since 1Q '06, with an average 68.6 million free videos served monthly.
* CNN.com podcast downloads totaled 2.8 million audio and 800,000 in video.
* CNN.com Video On Demand is available in 18.4 million homes with average monthly impressions at 203,000.

[Dr.Finger]

I used them as an example, and Yes, they are more significant. The viewership of CNN and all cable news is paltry and pathetic at best.For the sake of argument lest say that those Podcasts had the same viewership as CNN (instead of orders of magnitude less). The people that watch them are likely already hardcore techies and gamers that are hip deep in PS3 news. CNN reaches the casual and non gamer out there. That makes their viewers much more impressionable on the subject. You want to say that Leo and the others are more important than the GameOver column on CNNMoney? That I can buy. But more people watch CNN every hour than have ever heard of Leo Laporte and Digg combined.

[silv]

I used them as an example, and Yes, they are more significant. The viewership of CNN and all cable news is paltry and pathetic at best.

Based on what metrics?

Alexa shows that cnn.com has a traffic rank of 60. Diggnation has a traffic rank of 1,271,504.

I think you need to re-evaluate your argument.

[kid cabelgo]

Not to be contrary but I think the fight is already over and Sony lost.
It's not about numbers. It hasn't been since the Genesis/Snes days.
It's about public conception. And also who is the media darling in this race.

Back in the PS1 days the mass media were all over Sony because they were the TV people and were praised for their entry into the console business. More good media exposure = more sales.
Now the Business weeks, Cnn's, and such of the world have latched onto the Wii.
It doesn't matter if the PS3 is a better console. The media hype has been all for Nintendo.
So yeah, in the fight for this generations mindshare, it's over.

I think you're absolutely right. Public perception is what is killing the PS3. Whether the genera view from the public is causing the media to write up these sorts of reports, or whether these reports from major media are shifting public opinion is irrelevant. At this point there's really no way to shift the trend.

Sony: Cursed by their own hubris.

[kid cabelgo]

You really think three podcasts, no matter how popular, have more significance than CNN?

Yeah, I've never even heard of the podcasts he listed.

[roboninja]

While the race is not over, unless the PS3 pops legs like a tortoise and catches the Wii and 360 bunnies napping, it is already decided. Large media entities like CNN proclaiming doom and gloom are an indication of this fact.

[jpublic]

Something needs to change at Sony.

It really seems like they can't do anything right anymore, and every time they get knocked down they come back with something even more batshit crazy to try, and get screwed for it.

DRM Rootkits, offensive/criminal advertising gimmicks, pricing...the list just goes on and on.

Seriously, they need a Chief Sanity Officer to vet every initiative they take.

[Skyelan]

Not necessarily.

To be fair, wasn't the gaming media, in general, not buying into the PS2 at the beggining? I remember reading an awful lot of PS2 reviews about how "Well this is nice, but the DREAMCAST..." and "The DREAMCAST still manages to..." etc etc. Quite a handful of lists from popular sites comparing the two and determining Dreamcast as the winner. The gaming media is also who tells people that most liscensed games suck and not to buy them, but that doesn't really have much of an affect when stuff like Cars hits really high on charts...

Not that I'm trying to say it's not important, because it is, merely that it seems like it's the public perception that drives systems. See how PS2 was getting featured on everything, hyped up, became mythical from shortages, etc. To say it will remain is foolish, but it's hard to deny that the Wii is in the same spot as the PS2 was when it comes to being in the public eye. Doesn't help Sony that the 360 is in a very positive light already.

Main point is that when it comes to the top seller, I think people underestimate how much mainstream media tends to drive a system up or down more than gaming media does.

But we'll see. I do agree that it's too early to call it either way, I just enjoy being objective and playing Devil's (Fanboy's? I dunno) Advocate. ;)

Feel free to correct me if I was wrong on the first count, though. I just seem to remember despite some really insane hype around Sony's now infamous PS2 conferrences, the gaming media was pretty harsh against it.

[Ancalagon]

What Sony and Microsoft have against them in this war is the relative size of their companies.

Their companies comprise many different functional divisions, each wanting to contribute to the console, and the console division seems to want to make One Device to Rule All Devices. So a console that can play games, play movies, do your laundry etc etc.

Nintendo, on the other hand, make a console that plays games. And thats it. They benefit by greatly reducing costs and time to market. Probably increased reliability because they use older more proven technology. Sure they dont have the graphical power, but the low cost of their consoles can get them into every home, where people wouldnt even think of spending that kind of money on video game consoles.

Sony and Microsoft suffer from what is called scope creep. It means the objectives of the project go beyond what the project initially set out to do, in this case, to make something on which you can play games. Sure playing HD movies (in either format) is nice, but is it really necessary? Is it really necessary to make the console emulate all PC functions (downloading extra content that should have been in the game already, downloading fixes for games that should never have been released)?

All these things raise costs for the end user, and frankly I'm happy to let my PC do the downloading as long as my DS (these days) plays games whenever I want it to.

[Zanzibar]

In business, public perception is everything.

Until the PS3 is able to show the mass market something besides its high price and comparatively low sales numbers, you will continue to see major players in the business world slam Sony's gaming division.

However, have they 'lost?' No way. But they will lose ridiculous amounts of market share compared to last gen, which is a loss in itself.

[Fartacus]

Any crowning of a winner or loser this generation, or calling one console a success or failure, is extremely premature.

So you're saying the console wars are like the Special Olympics, where everyone's a winner?

You're right that it's too early to call the winner, but PS3 is clearly the loser. A dead horse can't win a race.

[GrinR]

I'll give it a shot -

the PS3 is a shameful defeat for Sony.

Yep.

[Gorvi]

So you're saying the console wars are like the Special Olympics, where everyone's a winner?

You're right that it's too early to call the winner, but PS3 is clearly the loser. A dead horse can't win a race.
I'm saying that both are premature. And I'd rather play nothing but Sony's first party games than the "next big 360 FPS".

EDIT : But we all have different tastes, good thing there's a choice out there, huh?

[TrackZero]

Any crowning of a winner or loser this generation, or calling one console a success or failure, is extremely premature.

I completely agree. It's far too early to call any console a failure, or a success at this point (including the Wii) we've got years to go.

[Fartacus]

PS3 will probably end up being the leader by a small margin. That already is defeat for Sony.

I want some of what you're smoking.

[bean19]

Nintendo, on the other hand, make a console that plays games. And thats it. They benefit by greatly reducing costs and time to market. Probably increased reliability because they use older more proven technology. Sure they dont have the graphical power, but the low cost of their consoles can get them into every home, where people wouldnt even think of spending that kind of money on video game consoles.

Nintendo deserves more criticism than that. Sure, they are the cheapest, but it is a low-value purchase even though it is affordable. I can buy chocolate-covered almonds for $2 and I get about as much candy as I would from a King-Size Snickers that costs $1. The almonds are still affordable as $2 isn't going to break me, but it is still a low-value purchase.

$250 is too much for last-gen hardware and a neat new controller, and while the Wii definitely has Zelda and Super Paper Mario - 2 shit-hot exclusive first-party titles, the system has a slow release schedule over all just like it's predecessor the Gamecube. I'm not willing to pay $250 for a last-gen system just to play first-party titles again. Add to this slipshod online support and you have a console that compares terribly to it's competitors in everything but price.

The 360 doesn't add an extra $200 to it's ticket price because it's trying to push HD-DVD on us. The 360 is the middle-ground with the most games and the best online support. The reason it isn't winning monthly too is that it trails the Wii in 2 important categories: 1) price and 2) system-sellers.

[Ancalagon]

You are probably right from the value point of view. I agree about the titles - there simply arent enough games on it for me to want to buy one. But then again, we are in the know. Lots of people dont know or dont care, and while Nintendos console may not be perfect (as you said, hardware slightly lacking, titles lacking) in other respects, such as originality and cost, its far ahead of the others.

[Gorvi]

You are probably right from the value point of view. I agree about the titles - there simply arent enough games on it for me to want to buy one. But then again, we are in the know. Lots of people dont know or dont care, and while Nintendos console may not be perfect (as you said, hardware slightly lacking, titles lacking) in other respects, such as originality and cost, its far ahead of the others.
It's ahead in price because it's not new hardware. You're paying a 250% markup for a slightly more powerful GC with a different controller and a (fun) tech demo.

Sony or Microsoft could rerelease their old consoles in a new shape with a new controller and sell it to you again for a markup, but they'd be called out for it.

EDIT : The Wii is quickly becoming the MTV of gaming. The only difference is, the Wii actually has some compelling content.

[bean19]

Lots of people dont know or dont care, and while Nintendos console may not be perfect (as you said, hardware slightly lacking, titles lacking) in other respects, such as originality and cost, its far ahead of the others.

But it isn't.

It's game library and online support and hardware are nowhere near the 360's. The Wii wins in price and because it already has 2 system-sellers out. . . that's it.

You're right that people don't know, but that will change. Right now the media is treating Nintendo like it's kid brother who just caught his first pop-fly, but eventually the Wii is going to have to undergo the same scrutiny that the other consoles get.

Nintendo doesn't want that. They want to "play in their own league", but that only works until you start knocking on the big boy's door and asking him to come out and fight. . . and Nintendo's sales are knocking on that door big time.

What is interesting is how Microsoft seems to not hear it.

[Rex Dart]

I feel that Sony still has two strong assets under their belt:

1. The strength and continuing popularity of the PS2 hardware and software
2. Final Fantasy XIII

The success of the PS2 seems to give Sony a bit of breathing space before they have to start worrying about the PS3 "failing." While this may mean that the PS3's aura of "the new thing" will fade before they start to really push it, hopefully there will be a price drop in order to offer more of an incentive.

If FFXIII remains exclusive to the PS3 (and I suspect it will), then the PS3 is going to conquer Japan. If that happens, Japanese developers will begin supporting the PS3 in a big way. While Japanese support is not a large incentive for the readership of Evil Avatar, for many gamers (myself included) it is certainly a factor in my console purchases.

The way I see it, Sony's two biggest dangers are:

1. The PS2 brand running out of steam before a PS3 pricedrop
2. FFXIII going multiplatform

Both of which seem rather unlikely.

Looking purely at the console launches themselves, the Wii does appear the clear winner, while the PS3 does appear the clear loser. However, I feel this is a tendency of both gaming and mainstream media to read far too much into launch success or failure. (I even recall the Gamecube looking like a stronger purchase than the Xbox way back when.)

The tagline for AVP was "Whoever wins, we lose." Vis a vis the console war, I feel the inverse of that applies: "If nobody wins, we win." As long as there is enough competition to keep all three console-makers going, the consumer is in a great position.

[Rafer]

I gotta disagree that the Wii is completely game focused. How come I can check the weather, get news, go to the Vote Channel and browse the web, but I can't play a game online? What is "fun" about the weather?

[51|RandoM]

You're paying a 250% markup for a slightly more powerful GC with a different controller and a (fun) tech demo.

Uh oh. Is this Defcon 1, or just Defcon 2? :D

My parting thought: Sony is gambling on a 6year+ console cycle, one the competition isn't going to go along with unless they're already trouncing Sony.

[grognard66]

I guess everything is relative. From a market share perspective there is little doubt the PS3 will be considered a failure because there is simply no way it will enjoy a 70% market share like the PS2 did. That is a defeat although I don't know if it was realistic to ever assume they could hold off MS and Nintendo this round.

I think it is very likely that we'll see each company take a third share this time around which will likely be perceived as victories for Nintendo and Microsoft and failure for Sony. Nintendo and MS are likely to be the only ones making a profit in the foreseeable future too. Live! (both Arcade and video marketplace) and VC are making their respective companies nice profits while Sony is still struggling to come up with a comprehensive online marketplace (where are the songs, movies, music, games for download?).

The article did fail to note that MS is actually ramping up quite nicely with the Trojan Horse mentality with its video download service and messaging/website integration.

[Dag-Sabot]

But it isn't.

It's game library and online support and hardware are nowhere near the 360's. The Wii wins in price and because it already has 2 system-sellers out. . . that's it.

You're right that people don't know, but that will change. Right now the media is treating Nintendo like it's kid brother who just caught his first pop-fly, but eventually the Wii is going to have to undergo the same scrutiny that the other consoles get.

Nintendo doesn't want that. They want to "play in their own league", but that only works until you start knocking on the big boy's door and asking him to come out and fight. . . and Nintendo's sales are knocking on that door big time.

What is interesting is how Microsoft seems to not hear it.*This post contains at least 10% post consumer recycled content, namely post #32.

[bean19]

2. Final Fantasy XIII

A Square developer blog has stated that it won't be exclusive to the PS3. SDF folks are saying that this doesn't necessarily mean that the 360 will get the game too but that they may release different supplementary games that occur in the same world on handhelds. That's reaching though, IMO.

So, in addition to a developer comment that tends to show that it will also release on the 360, there is also the fact that Final Fantasy has always released on the console that has the broadest customer base. In every generation since the NES, this has been true.

In any case, the price of the PS3 is the big problem. I don't think it is possible for them to get to $250 or less by the end of 2008, and at that point the other 2 consoles will be so established that Sony will have to pay developers to continue to make games on the PS3. . . that's a tough position to be in.

I guess we'll have to wait and see. I think they'll do okay. They'll be like this generation's Gamecube.

[bean19]

*This post contains at least 10% post consumer recycled content, namely post #32.

You're right. I'll shut up about it. I've turned this into my pet issue lately because I'm so annoyed that the Wii gets a free pass so often.

[Gorvi]

A Square developer blog has stated that it won't be exclusive to the PS3. SDF folks are saying that this doesn't necessarily mean that the 360 will get the game too but that they may release different supplementary games that occur in the same world on handhelds. That's reaching though, IMO.
Man, I really don't want to get into this again. All that statement said was that the FFXIII project as a whole would span more than the 3 games that have already been announced (2 PS3, one mobile phone), and that they wouldn't all be on the PS3. How does that mean that the PS3 is losing FFXIII and that the 360 is getting it?

[TheFlyingOrc]

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b350/theflyingorc/pray-ps3.jpg

[TheFlyingOrc]

2. Final Fantasy XIII

Yes, what would Sony do without the 16th best selling game (http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4691&Itemid=34&limit=1&limitstart=13) last year?

It didn't sell as much as Guitar Hero 2.

[bean19]

Man, I really don't want to get into this again. All that statement said was that the FFXIII project as a whole would span more than the 3 games that have already been announced (2 PS3, one mobile phone), and that they wouldn't all be on the PS3. How does that mean that the PS3 is losing FFXIII and that the 360 is getting it?

Okeydokey. . . I won't get into it with you either.

However, people who are wondering about this should go look it up. :)

[Rex Dart]

Yes, what would Sony do without the 16th best selling game (http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4691&Itemid=34&limit=1&limitstart=13) last year?

It didn't sell as much as Guitar Hero 2.
I was referring exclusively to the series' popularity in Japan.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Okeydokey. . . I won't get into it with you either.

However, people who are wondering about this should go look it up. :)
I actually agree with Gorvi.

However, since their last game sold 5-6 million copies on 100 million systems, when they should have sold about 10-12 million PS3s by the time it comes out (let's say middle of next year...)

.06 * 12 = .72
STELLAR SALES!!!!!

[Gorvi]

Okeydokey. . . I won't get into it with you either.

However, people who are wondering about this should go look it up. :)
Hey, I could be wrong. If you're right, though, we should hear something about it at SE's little Final Fantasy party (http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3158148) on May 12th and 13th. So at least it shouldn't be too long that we're living in uncertianty. ;)

[Philonious]

@ TheFlyingOrc: The pic was meh... The "I post Dr. Doom" tagline is classic.

[TheFlyingOrc]

I was referring exclusively to the series' popularity in Japan.

As of March 31st, Final Fantasy XII has sold 2.38 million units in Japan (http://www.rpgfan.com/news/2006/1287.html)

Wow! Best selling game EVARRRR!!!!!!

It doesn't have bad sales. I just maintain that it isn't important to selling consoles, and nobody has ever given me a good talking point to believe otherwise. FFXIII's impact is overrated.

[civil_dead]

I wanted to address this before making another point:
If FFXIII remains exclusive to the PS3 (and I suspect it will), then the PS3 is going to conquer Japan. If that happens, Japanese developers will begin supporting the PS3 in a big way.
From what I understand, the DQ series is a much, much bigger deal in Japan than FF. IIRC, those games are only announced for Nintendo products so far. It's my understanding the popularity of FF & DQ is inverse for Japan and the rest of the world (namely U.S.). Though I do agree that losing FF as an exclusive will hurt Sony's perception.

What I'm most surprised about, though, is the general media's latching on to this whole "war". Our little hobby has gotten big headlines in the regular press for the past few years. I think the mainstream acceptance is finally coming along (I mean on par with other entertainment that's more "respected"). Wired listed Nintendo as one of its top 40 companies this year. Time listed the PS3 as a big blunder as did CNN. Gates was on the cover of Time in regards to the 360. Those are big, non-gaming media outlets and that's just off the top of my head.

That said, all this negative mainstream news about Sony is not good. Many parents with the kind of income that can afford $250 - $600 systems for their children read these types of magazines/websites. The impact of this bad press can be massive. I think, as many have stated, that we'll start to see the fallout from all this come holiday time when parents are apt to do the shopping for these type of purchases. In the meantime it'll be more gaming enthusiasts that are buying the systems who are likely less swayed by the mainstream media.

[Philonious]

As of March 31st, Final Fantasy XII has sold 2.38 million units in Japan (http://www.rpgfan.com/news/2006/1287.html)

Wow! Best selling game EVARRRR!!!!!!

It doesn't have bad sales. I just maintain that it isn't important to selling consoles, and nobody has ever given me a good talking point to believe otherwise. FFXIII's impact is overrated.

Perhaps. It is, but I imagine that XIII being all shiny and next gen might actually play into people choosing a console. If nothing else people waiting for Final Fantasy will hop on the PS3, boosting sales and raising interest.

Also, FFXII hasn't been out long enough to determine the final sales figures. You can't discount it THAT quickly. Wait and see what happens when it hits the Greatest Hits label.

[Rex Dart]

In Japan, 2.38 million is a lot. The only franchises that regularly sell 2+ million are Pokemon, Dragon Quest, Mario, and Final Fantasy.

Perhaps I am overestimating FFXIII's impact, but I still consider it one of Sony's strongest IPs.

[Trazzlo the Magnificant]

It appears to me that Sony and CNN agree that the PS3 has fallen far short of expectations. They clearly weren't satisfied with the 20GB model and sales it had, so they canceled it. They really don't seem to value Kutaragi's design decisions either. And it seems like Sony itself is directing more toward content sales rather than gaming. Part of the layoffs announced included members of the PS3 Home environment, and that doesn't leave you with the feeling that internally Sony is really going to push this software.

The gaming division is losing cash, and Sony has stated they don't really like that part. So, might they simply call it a day on the PS3? Let it sell whatever it sells, but not promote it as heavily, not have large scale marketing campaigns for games, not pay the extra fee's for exclusive games?

How much does Sony's new management really respect gaming? How big of a future do they see for it compared to DVD and bluray sales? Do they still think of PS3 as a cheap bluray player, when other players are now coming in to the $300 range? They probably hoped the PS3 would boom their content market for them, and in that way it has failed.

I don't see that many recent clear signs that upper Sony management is 100% behind building a massive gaming empire upon the PS3 groundwork, and investing the development & marketing capital that is needed. I think they will play a much more conservative game now and try to get profits up.

[KSmitty]

The writer makes too many comparisons between the Wii and the PS3, and failed to mention the biggest division in price between the PS3 and the 360, the inclusion of Blu-ray.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Perhaps. It is, but I imagine that XIII being all shiny and next gen might actually play into people choosing a console. If nothing else people waiting for Final Fantasy will hop on the PS3, boosting sales and raising interest.

Also, FFXII hasn't been out long enough to determine the final sales figures. You can't discount it THAT quickly. Wait and see what happens when it hits the Greatest Hits label.

I see your points - my refutation -

1. Boosting sales - this will surely happen somewhat. I would say, however, that most of the PS3's current fanbase are the Final Fantasy fans. I would say a SIGNIFICANT percentage of those who would buy the system for just Final Fantasy already own it. It would cause a spike - but a spike of 2 million wouldn't make the console a success - it's already more than 2 million behind BOTH it's competitors. And I personally can't imagine even 2 million PS3s being sold ENTIRELY because of FFXIII.

2. True, but that's not the point of the data I gave - people who pick the game up as a bargain aren't buying the system for the game - my point is not that FF isn't popular, or that it won't sell a lot of copies - my point is that in the grand scheme of things, it can't save the PS3. Also, what if it sucks? :)

[TheFlyingOrc]

In Japan, 2.38 million is a lot. The only franchises that regularly sell 2+ million are Pokemon, Dragon Quest, Mario, and Final Fantasy.

Perhaps I am overestimating FFXIII's impact, but I still consider it one of Sony's strongest IPs.
That is TOTALLY acceptable. I am not trying to convince you that nobody likes Final Fantasy. My point is ONLY about its relationship to the PS3's success.

[Philonious]

Also, what if it sucks? :)

Woah woah woah... Now you're just talking crazy. I don't think that would stop people from buying it. If it sucks it will sell pretty well.

You're right, on its own FFXIII won't save the system, but if a developer like Square shows confidence in the PS3 and manages to sell a respectable amount of software, other developers will follow suit... This is where its true strength lies. If Sony manages to hold on to a few respectable exclusives they'll build a strong enough base to at least get the port support that the XBOX got and Japanese support on top of it then we'll have a console war on our hands.

And that horror story about Sony not supporting the PS3 will give me nightmares. That said, putting Kaz Hirai in charge wasn't exactly a vote of no confidence. And getting rid of Ken sounds more complicated then we have been lead to believe.

[fitbabits]

Not surprised to see your name here Kamalot. And it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too early to call it a defeat for Sony. Waaaaaaay too early.
Oh, Sandy - you're letting your team down with proclamations like the above.

[Dirty Harry]

We will see who laughs last kamalame.

[Banacek]

Since this thread is pointless flame-bait, I'm going to drop this on you:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_1LcJ6N9vwo

[fitbabits]

Since this thread is pointless flame-bait, I'm going to drop this on you:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_1LcJ6N9vwo
Let's see, who made it pointless flame-bait? Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

[Banacek]

Let's see, who made it pointless flame-bait? Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Any article saying that it's over and declaring victors when it's this early is nothing but flame-bait and you know it. Currently winning? Sure, that's a good article.

I think you might think I'm a Sony fan, and I'm not. I don't ever plan on getting a PS3 (god-willing that FFXIII comes out on the 360). Articles and threads like this just get under my skin, cause they're garbage.

[Serapth]

Let's see, who made it pointless flame-bait? Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.


What if its bulletproof glass?

[fitbabits]

Any article saying that it's over and declaring victors when it's this early is nothing but flame-bait and you know it. Currently winning? Sure, that's a good article.

I think you might think I'm a Sony fan, and I'm not. I don't ever plan on getting a PS3 (god-willing that FFXIII comes out on the 360). Articles and threads like this just get under my skin, cause they're garbage.
My point is that slamming an article by calling it "flame-bait" does nobody any favors. I don't know who you're a fan of, nor would it make any sort of difference, but mature and meaningful discussion IS possible in these types of articles. People just have to get over themselves and/or any bias they may see in the article and actually discuss what's being said.

[fitbabits]

What if its bulletproof glass?
Then they have other, more serious, problems they should be dealing with - not whether an article is worthy of discussion. Think of the Pope and his Pope-mobile.

[Banacek]

My point is that slamming an article by calling it "flame-bait" does nobody any favors. I don't know who you're a fan of, nor would it make any sort of difference, but mature and meaningful discussion IS possible in these types of articles. People just have to get over themselves and/or any bias they may see in the article and actually discuss what's being said.

It is possible, but it never happens :)

[fitbabits]

It is possible, but it never happens :)
That's because some people don't LET it happen. Round and round and round we go, where we stop, only Sony knows. ;)

[oldjadedgamer]

Well, considering that the PS1 and PS2 got off to MUCH slower retail starts than the PS3

You do know that in Japan, the PS2 sold more in it's first day on sale then the PS3 has in 5 months. I don't know if I would consider that a "slow start".

[vherub]

In retrospect, both sega and nintendo lost themselves with the saturn and 64, allowing the ps to crush them into game and system sales. Similarly, by the end of 2001, it became clear the ps2 had pulled away from the xbox and cube, eventually crushing them (and still steamrolling).
Blowing this huge lead during the transition IS a failure. It is not THE failure, but the brand has been damaged. As has been pointed out, there is too much time before any console is clearly an outright winner (if there ever is one).
But at the moment, two things are clear, the playstation brand has fumbled away its lead and if the worlwide popularity of the wii continues it will end up selling far and away the most systems
(december 07 will be a great time to check in for those of you keeping score at home).

[Philonious]

But at the moment, two things are clear, the playstation brand has fumbled away its lead and if the worlwide popularity of the wii continues it will end up selling far and away the most systems (december 07 will be a great time to check in for those of you keeping score at home).

Except that I don't really see the Wii being supported for a whole generation... And so while they might have an initially strong base, I think Nintendo will pull the rug out from under them and introduce something new. Even if they don't, I imagine that the initial spike in Wii sales will drop whereas the PS3 and 360 have better long term potential. The challenge that Sony is facing is proving people with enough justification to take the plunge. The fact that Microsoft is failing miserably in Japan is bound to help the PS3 in the long run... Especially if there is still a strong market for traditional gaming.

[Zanzibar]

Any article saying that it's over and declaring victors when it's this early is nothing but flame-bait and you know it. Currently winning? Sure, that's a good article.

I think you might think I'm a Sony fan, and I'm not. I don't ever plan on getting a PS3 (god-willing that FFXIII comes out on the 360). Articles and threads like this just get under my skin, cause they're garbage.

The story isn't the article. The story is the source.

When mainstream business press starts calling the Console Wars 'lost' to Sony, that tells you Sony has to not only combat Nintendo and Microsoft, but they also have to combat their own poor public perception.

Up until very recently, the Console War skirmishes involving the PS3 consisted of claims about 'prerendered Killzone footage' and 'massive damage' and 'Riiiiiidge Racerrrrr!' We hardcore Console War spectators enjoyed it, but nobody in the business world paid any attention.

Nowadays, you can't help but look at the stark realities of delayed launches, 7:1 Wii/PS3 sales in Japan, and $599. The Console Wars have powerful spectators right now, and Sony is failing to make any spectator do anything except shake their heads.

[trip1eX]

BluRay baby!!! That's what hurts the PS3 initially, but ultimately makes it a success.

[Hugenex]

Just wait for some fucking exclusive titles for PS3 and all will be cleared. Anyway why complain just own all the consoles like a regular hardcore gamer...

[Phades]

I found this part of the article kind of hilarious:

"The Wii may not be the most powerful console ever built, but it is the smallest and lightest. Its chip is not faster than Sony's cell, but it does use less electricity. In short, it looks more like the future. "

I know that power consumption is the number one concern I've heard from console gamers everywhere.

[CozmoKhan]

Sony didn't lose the console war to Nintendo or Microsoft. They shot themselves in the foot. As has been posted before, it's a matter of public perception and media hype. The Wii is the media darling and will be as long as non-traditional gamers are having fun.

Again, it's not that Nintendo beat Sony, it's that Sony choked on its own.

[NeoSuplex]

It is possible, but it never happens :)

Oh, It happens. Despite you.

[Dag-Sabot]

<- But on the brighter side, the side banner proclaims that they're available (limited quantities).

[Banacek]

Oh, It happens. Despite you.

Do I know you?

[NeoSuplex]

Do I know you?
You're asking me?

[fitbabits]

Just wait for some fucking exclusive titles for PS3 and all will be cleared. Anyway why complain just own all the consoles like a regular hardcore gamer...
Just to own all the next-gen consoles would require a minimum investment of $1300. Not everyone can afford such a hefty layout of income. And "hardcore gamers", at least in the context you imply, do not exist.

[twophayse]

Until they lose Metal Gear and Final Fantasy, the Playstation is still in the game. They've got more original first party games than Nintendo or Microsoft, as well as a great track record of putting out a variety of quality products. Here's my take on the Xbox and the Wii. On one hand, the faulty hardware, shooter-centric first party games, and FU pay me attitude of Live turn me off to the Xbox. On the other hand, the inconsistent controls, PS2/PSP port-centric third party games , and repetitive rehashes of ageless mascots recreating twenty year old storylines of the Wii turn me off. One potential benefit is without the security checks in place on the PS3 and Xbox, the Wii has a large advantage in homebrew potential, but there's no telling how long that will last. The only thing holding me back from a the PS3 is the price of both the console and the games. Thanks to Gamefly and others the game pricing can be negated with a little patience, but the console price itself is hard to justify unless they offer a $300 off rebate with the purchase of a bundle pack. Either way, I've got too many unfinished games and too little time to worry about this until a price drop, and if I get the itch to play something new it'll probably be available on PC or PS2.

[Tel Prydain]

Any article saying that it's over and declaring victors when it's this early is nothing but flame-bait and you know it. Currently winning? Sure, that's a good article.

The article wasn't the story in this case.
The story is that more and more of the main-stream media are trashing the PS3, and hailing the Wii as the new king.
If it was some game site bagging on a console it wouldn't be news, but when the New York Times and CNN start dishing out opinions, that's going to effect the public's view on the console wars.

[PXG 360]

Unless the price drops within the next year, it will never hit the mainstream. This Christmas, 2007, will be the deciding battle in this generation's console wars. Whoever is on top in January is going to stay on top until the new consoles start popping up. No significant portion of the gaming population is going to be buying a $600 console for Christmas this year. Since I doubt that Sony will be dropping the price of the PS3 down to $400 to be competitive with the 360 Premium (or the Elite, which could very easily be dropped into the $400 price slot), I'd say that calling it a game for them would be perfectly fine at this point.

They could still turn it into a profitable venture, maybe, but it isn't going to come out on top this generation as far as the install base goes (and thus, the amount of exclusive titles). The Wii and the 360 will be the real contenders this generation.

You are right. If Sony can't pull ahead this year, they can kiss it goodbye. They have a lot of great games and features on the way, but if they can't win with that, nothing will help them.

[DaXIthR]

Nintendo isn't the leader of my gaming world. I'll never buy a Wii.

I'm glad we've still got a few smart people left on this board.

Thank you, Morratut. I was just about to give up all hope.

[Dag-Sabot]

Come on people have some faith and invest in potential.

[Zanzibar]

Come on people have some faith and invest in potential.
Potential for failure? The PS3 has that in spades. No wonder the fanbase consists of Chad Wardens.

/ducks

[Dag-Sabot]

Potential for failure? The PS3 has that in spades. No wonder the fanbase consists of Chad Wardens.

/ducks
*highfives* and runs for cover!

[Sandman]

I think 2 years from now we'll be talking about the Wii as a failure and the PS3 and the 360 will be pretty much equals.

[Tel Prydain]

I think 2 years from now we'll be talking about the Wii as a failure and the PS3 and the 360 will be pretty much equals.
Wii will own the casual space – you’ll never see the x360 or PS3 in retirement homes. But I think it won’t be seen as a ”gamer’s console”. I recon that the Wii is the dawn of a new kind of toy, but it won’t really compete for what we currently consider to be the gaming market.

[Banacek]

You're asking me?

Your post implied that I ruined some of your conversations. I was just wondering what you were talking about.

[Sandman]

Wii will own the casual space – you’ll never see the x360 or PS3 in retirement homes. But I think it won’t be seen as a ”gamer’s console”. I recon that the Wii is the dawn of a new kind of toy, but it won’t really compete for what we currently consider to be the gaming market.

I'm not even sure if the casual space is a good thing for the Wii. Casual gamers won't drop $50 on a game as often as Nintendo would want.

[suicidepuppet]

I don't care what anybody says-$600 is not going to make it for a game console. The problems with the PS3 are bad enough, but no matter how many of those problems are solved I know absolutely no one who has plans to pick one up till the price drops below $300 and I'm a $199.99 guy when it comes to consoles. A serious revamp of the gear and an attitude adjustment (stop telling me I should work more hours to afford it- f/u) with a price that reflects the real world consumer and Sony might get back in the game. But I agree, Christmas is the witch finder general of these consoles...recall that new consoles are already on the test benches. Sony needs to reconnect with its customers and provide them with quality products and services...or they can just keep smoking crack...

[Tel Prydain]

I'm not even sure if the casual space is a good thing for the Wii. Casual gamers won't drop $50 on a game as often as Nintendo would want.
True. But Nintendo won't have that very many good games worth dropping $50 on, so it should even out. :p

The attach rate doesn't matter so much if the console sale is making cash. They can 'win' by selling to old-folk's homes and schools, and still make more money then Sony or Microsoft.

[Zanzibar]

True. But Nintendo won't have that very many good games worth dropping $50 on, so it should even out. :p

The attach rate doesn't matter so much if the console sale is making cash. They can 'win' by selling to old-folk's homes and schools, and still make more money then Sony or Microsoft.

A good part of revenue for the consoles come from game sale royalties - anywhere from $8-$12 per game sold, last I heard. A system that doesn't sell a lot of games isn't attractive to publishers, either, so the system is doomed to be a niche market. Yeah, they can break even or turn a small profit, but you can't consider that a 'win.' If that was the case, then the GameCube completely trashed the competition last gen.

A system with a 8.0 attach rate (8 games per system sold over the life of the console) makes ~$100 in royalties, so the system can sell for ~$100 under the cost it takes to make it. If we're to believe that Sony is selling every PS3 at a loss (the amount drops over time, it was about $241 (http://ps3.gamespy.com/articles/746/746671p1.html) at launch) at an average of $200, then every person who bought a PS3 would need to buy 16 games. While that's not a huge amount for us hardcore types, it will be tough to accomplish for everyone.

Now, HERE'S the fun stuff: Blu-ray movies. It costs Sony virtually nothing to make Blu-ray transfers from movies, because the movie costs are recouped by theater ticket sales, so the actual content is cheap and easy to duplicate. They still pocket a fair amount of money for each Blu-ray disc sold, even after any royalties are paid to the movie makers. THAT is where they hope to recoup the PS3 costs.

Watch the fireworks when Spiderman 3 (a wholly-owned Sony property) makes its ONLY appearance on Blu-ray, this Christmas. I seriously doubt it will be available on DVD; it will be a catalyst to spur Blu-ray player sales.

[RMan]

Just to own all the next-gen consoles would require a minimum investment of $1300. Not everyone can afford such a hefty layout of income. And "hardcore gamers", at least in the context you imply, do not exist.
The purchase doesn't have to happen right now. I would say that unless they have drawn battlelines, by the end of the their time most people that have bought a PS3 or premium 360 now will own all three. I'd really consider most people that have paid a premium price as an early adopter (which, in the grand scheme of things is what you are if you've bought a PS3 or 360 now) as hardcore gamers likely to own all three consoles. I think when the PS3 gets some cool games they'll be able to match the 360 at least, but neither will touch the Wii.

[Tel Prydain]

The purchase doesn't have to happen right now. I would say that unless they have drawn battlelines, by the end of the their time most people that have bought a PS3 or premium 360 now will own all three. I'd really consider most people that have paid a premium price as an early adopter (which, in the grand scheme of things is what you are if you've bought a PS3 or 360 now) as hardcore gamers likely to own all three consoles. I think when the PS3 gets some cool games they'll be able to match the 360 at least, but neither will touch the Wii.
I disagree.
I got a 360 when it first came out, and I won't buy a PS3 for a good year or two. The 360 has new content coming out fast enough that I don't feel I need a PS3 yet.

[RMan]

I'm not even sure if the casual space is a good thing for the Wii. Casual gamers won't drop $50 on a game as often as Nintendo would want.
Who says they have to? $50 is the high end of the scale for a Wii game, and the average game price will drop as more online titles come out and titles get older. The casual gamer won’t play, or pay for, hardcore games, it’s a defining aspect of a casual gamer. True ‘casual gamers’ (if you can pigeon-hole them as such) will buy the occasional high priced game if it’s targeted at something they’re really interested in, but they will otherwise be milked by online sales, and I think Nintendo’s perfectly happy with that.

[RMan]

I got a 360 when it first came out, and I won't buy a PS3 for a good year or two.
If you check my post I said by the end of their time, so although you haven't committed to buying one, you seem to be agreeing with me more than disagreeing.

[NeoSuplex]

Your post implied that I ruined some of your conversations. I was just wondering what you were talking about.

Don't mind me, I'm just a guy on the other side of some wires...

[superstring]

It's time that everyone here accepted some cold hard truths:

- Playstation 3 is DOA. Sony themselves recognise this - with internal shake ups and the forced retirment for the guy who was spearheading the project.

- With the momentum Wii has and the mainstream recognition and love it's getting, it's going to overtake Xbox 360 in total sales quite quickly.

- The gaming landscape is changing. Xbox 360 and PS3 represent the past; defined by complicated, dark, violent, male-centric games full of marines and monsters; gaming for basements - whereas Wii and DS represent the future - gaming brought into the sunlight, for the whole family to enjoy, including gramps. Gaming that can be talked about on mainstream TV shows and in mainstream magazines.

I know that most of you here are hardcore gamers and love those dark violent shooty games, and don't want this to be true, and want to dismiss Wii as a novelty toy that's gonna just disappear once the fad has died down...but this isn't a fad. Things have changed. And like it or not, the whole hardcore gamer thing is going to become more marginalised in the future.

- Nintendo deserve credit. They stood back from the market and thought about how to expand sales of their next products, then put that strategy into action, resulting in huge success. The success that they're having is not accidental, and it's not just because 'Sony shot themselves in the foot', it's because Nintendo had a really friggin smart plan.

[cp#]

PS3 is going to end up ahead of the 360.

[BlackPete]

It's time that everyone here accepted some cold hard truths:

- Playstation 3 is DOA. Sony themselves recognise this - with internal shake ups and the forced retirment for the guy who was spearheading the project.

- With the momentum Wii has and the mainstream recognition and love it's getting, it's going to overtake Xbox 360 in total sales quite quickly.

- The gaming landscape is changing. Xbox 360 and PS3 represent the past; defined by complicated, dark, violent, male-centric games full of marines and monsters; gaming for basements - whereas Wii and DS represent the future - gaming brought into the sunlight, for the whole family to enjoy, including gramps. Gaming that can be talked about on mainstream TV shows and in mainstream magazines.

I know that most of you here are hardcore gamers and love those dark violent shooty games, and don't want this to be true, and want to dismiss Wii as a novelty toy that's gonna just disappear once the fad has died down...but this isn't a fad. Things have changed. And like it or not, the whole hardcore gamer thing is going to become more marginalised in the future.

- Nintendo deserve credit. They stood back from the market and thought about how to expand sales of their next products, then put that strategy into action, resulting in huge success. The success that they're having is not accidental, and it's not just because 'Sony shot themselves in the foot', it's because Nintendo had a really friggin smart plan.

Welcome to Evil Avatar, and very nice first post. I believe that you nailed it -- people on sites like this one tend to get way too hardcore about gaming and they tend to forget that the "mainstream" is a whole another world.

[Tel Prydain]

PS3 is going to end up ahead of the 360.
Twat.
I love that you didn’t provide any reasoning, and blithely made your claim without making reference to past or future trends. In honour of your posting style, I’ll post my opinion of you, without providing excess reasoning. :p

[Sandman]

Welcome to Evil Avatar, and very nice first post. I believe that you nailed it -- people on sites like this one tend to get way too hardcore about gaming and they tend to forget that the "mainstream" is a whole another world.

I think it's going to be different 1 or 2 years down the road when the mainstream gamer sees all the graphical advancements devs make with 360/PS3 games while they look at the Wii and realize that it is two gamecubes duct taped together. The mainstream gamer isn't the grandma and grandpas that Nintendo is selling out to now, the mainstream gamer is the graphic whore that needs the next Madden or GTA or Metal Gear.

[Tel Prydain]

Nintendo deserve credit. They stood back from the market and thought about how to expand sales of their next products, then put that strategy into action, resulting in huge success. The success that they're having is not accidental, and it's not just because 'Sony shot themselves in the foot', it's because Nintendo had a really friggin smart plan.
Great first post. I agree with everything you said, but as long as there are 'hardcore' gamers there will market for "those dark violent shooty games". I don't like the Wii, but I don't want to dismiss Wii as a novelty toy - I think that the Wii is the birth of a new type of gaming. That doesn't mean the old one will go away, it just means there are more options.

[KingGorilla]

Twat.

Aussie :p

Oh yes, I went there. Ya Kiwi bastard.

[Tel Prydain]

Aussie :p

Oh yes, I went there. Ya Kiwi bastard.
I don’t have to sit here and be insulted by a Canadian! :p
Right back at ya, ya yanky tosser.:D

[BlackPete]

I think it's going to be different 1 or 2 years down the road when the mainstream gamer sees all the graphical advancements devs make with 360/PS3 games while they look at the Wii and realize that it is two gamecubes duct taped together. The mainstream gamer isn't the grandma and grandpas that Nintendo is selling out to now, the mainstream gamer is the graphic whore that needs the next Madden or GTA or Metal Gear.

Do you really think that Madden is selling because of graphics? Really?

Same goes for GTA or Metal Gear. They both were nice looking games, but so were tons of other games. These games in particular stood out because of the game itself.

[Sandman]

Do you really think that Madden is selling because of graphics? Really?

Same goes for GTA or Metal Gear. They both were nice looking games, but so were tons of other games. These games in particular stood out because of the game itself.

You do realize that I'm just using those games as examples right?

[bean19]

Do you really think that Madden is selling because of graphics? Really?

Same goes for GTA or Metal Gear. They both were nice looking games, but so were tons of other games. These games in particular stood out because of the game itself.


Yes. Graphics are part of it. They are always part of it.

[Montgomery_Python]

The only man that can save the PS3 is Chad wawenn.nnn...

Seriously, have you ever seen a system designed more towards daddy escalade driving inkjet millionaires?

[Sandman]

The only man that can save the PS3 is Chad wawenn.nnn...

Seriously, have you ever seen a system designed more towards daddy escalade driving inkjet millionaires?

Neo Geo says hi.

[NeoSuplex]

The gaming landscape is changing. Xbox 360 and PS3 represent the past; defined by complicated, dark, violent, male-centric games full of marines and monsters; gaming for basements - whereas Wii and DS represent the future - gaming brought into the sunlight, for the whole family to enjoy, including gramps. Gaming that can be talked about on mainstream TV shows and in mainstream magazines.

Did... I miss the part where we all died?

Seriously, I agree with most of what you said, but not this little section. I agree that the Wii is not a fad, but that doesn't necessitate the death of all other consoles.

Like I said before, there was the PC, the Console, and the Handheld. Now, we have something new to game on.
"Well, they invented the SUV... Trucks are done for. Later, Ford!"

[KingGorilla]

Did... I miss the part where we all died?


Cooking Mama gave us food poisoning I think.

[NeoSuplex]

Cooking Mama gave us food poisoning I think.

That whore... I bet Eating Papa put her up to it. Selfish bastard...

[MaxDuo]

I think it's going to be different 1 or 2 years down the road when the mainstream gamer sees all the graphical advancements devs make with 360/PS3 games while they look at the Wii and realize that it is two gamecubes duct taped together. The mainstream gamer isn't the grandma and grandpas that Nintendo is selling out to now, the mainstream gamer is the graphic whore that needs the next Madden or GTA or Metal Gear.

Why do people keep saying the Wii is 2 gamecube duct taped together? I mean, I know duct tape is quite amazing, but I don't think it could make the two fuse into one functioning system...... Or was the GC magical or had some kind of special duct tape enhanced property? I think I need to go find my roommate's GC real fast.....


But....Madden. No :( Honestly I haven't played any sports games since the NBA Jams and whatnot on Genesis. I just could care less about them. Not my preferred thing I guess. I don't see what others get from it... but hey. To each his own I suppose.

[superstring]

Thanks for the welcome :) I've been reading Evil Avatar for ages, but never posted til now...


Seriously, I agree with most of what you said, but not this little section. I agree that the Wii is not a fad, but that doesn't necessitate the death of all other consoles.

Like I said before, there was the PC, the Console, and the Handheld. Now, we have something new to game on.
"Well, they invented the SUV... Trucks are done for. Later, Ford!"

Well, hardcore gaming's always going to be around, but if Nintendo's adventure into the mainstream keeps steaming along then the harcore market's going to become more marginalised.

[jacktion]

No doubt, there is a lot we can learn from other's mistakes, but is it too early to call the PS3 a shameful defeat for Sony?


No, I'd say it is just about the right time.

[KingGorilla]

Thanks for the welcome :) I've been reading Evil Avatar for ages, but never posted til now...



Well, hardcore gaming's always going to be around, but if Nintendo's adventure into the mainstream keeps steaming along then the harcore market's going to become more marginalised.
Like Microsoft, Valve, Epic, and Sony have said...once all the Nintendo gamers get into high school, they are more than happy to cater to their more mature sensibilities.

[JimmyDanger]

It's this sort of negative mainstream press coverage that helped the Xbox to a stillborn, jaundiced state early in it's life - that it never really recovered from (even though it continued to sell).

I thought "Times 10 biggest failures of 2006 " would've been sort of the end of this, and that Sony would recover to some more respectable sales figures by the end of Q1 07. Seems not. This really doesn't look good for Sony.

Us hardcores like to back the underdog. The general public (usually aware that they're not aware, and rely on "buzz" and "what's cool") - not so much. If this pattern continues - all that 12 years of "cool", "buzz" - Playstation brand recognition that Sony has relied on - may go up in smoke. Happened to Atari. Happened to Nintendo (for a good generation or 2).

[Wolvie]

Shit the console hasn't even been out for a year! I'll give till the anniversary of it's launch to pick up steam. And if it doesn't? Then I'll consider whether or not it's a failure.

Thanks for the welcome :) I've been reading Evil Avatar for ages, but never posted til now...



Well, hardcore gaming's always going to be around, but if Nintendo's adventure into the mainstream keeps steaming along then the harcore market's going to become more marginalised.

Welcome aboard, and I like the way you think, all sane and whatnot. :D

[NeoSuplex]

Thanks for the welcome :) I've been reading Evil Avatar for ages, but never posted til now...



Well, hardcore gaming's always going to be around, but if Nintendo's adventure into the mainstream keeps steaming along then the harcore market's going to become more marginalised.
What makes you say that though? Nintendo is expanding the market more than it is stealing current marketshare. The 10s of millions of people that were already gamers (and more) are still going to go looking for the GTAs and Halos later this year.

[superstring]

Like Microsoft, Valve, Epic, and Sony have said...once all the Nintendo gamers get into high school, they are more than happy to cater to their more mature sensibilities.

Why would gramps be going back to high school?

My point is, this is another misconception - "Nintendo is teh kiddie". It's just an outdated idea.

Animal Crossing has been a huge hit with twenty-somethings, the whole Mii thing is also the most popular with twenty-somethings too, Brain Training has been a huge hit with adults of all ages, right up to seniors, as has Wii Sports, not to mention Wii Play, Common Sense Training, Nintendogs, etc.

To me, the games mentioned above fit the definition of 'mature' more than gravity guns, space marines, orcs and aliens - which strike me as being 'teenagerish'.

[RMan]

Like Microsoft, Valve, Epic, and Sony have said...once all the Nintendo gamers get into high school, they are more than happy to cater to their more mature sensibilities.
These kinds of statements are the feces created when arrogance eats ignorance. I’d love to hear the actual logic behind such statements, or the attempt at formulating logic to support it, it’d be amusing. Maybe they mean when people enter high school they’ll want it because of the sex and violence, but once they’re post pubescent they’ll go back to Nintendo :).

[BlackPete]

Yes. Graphics are part of it. They are always part of it.

They help but they don't necessarily sell a game. Quick example: What do you think of Doom 3? Gorgeous game, but just felt... empty... when playing it. It sold OK but not as well as it could have, based on the IP brand.

And that's my point -- graphics alone don't sell a game. To say that a game sells because of its graphics, I can point you to plenty of counterexamples to show it's a false generalization.

To say that the Wii will eventually fail because one day people will "wake up" to the fact that hardcore gamers were right all along and the 360/PS3 are the way to go... ? I just don't see it happening.

[shnastybiznastic]

Like Microsoft, Valve, Epic, and Sony have said...once all the Nintendo gamers get into high school, they are more than happy to cater to their more mature sensibilities.
One of the things I love about your posts is that I can never tell when you are kidding.

It stands to reason then that once the generation in question gets out of high school they will go back to playing what is fun, no matter the system it's on.

[superstring]

What makes you say that though? Nintendo is expanding the market more than it is stealing current marketshare. The 10s of millions of people that were already gamers (and more) are still going to go looking for the GTAs and Halos later this year.

I'm sure GTA and Halo 3 are going to sell truckloads, but what I mean is if the market expands and more and more people who are traditionally non-gamers are pulled in - the type of people who have never found sci-fi epic or gangster games attractive - then the marketshare percentage of the hardcore audience is going to drop.

This is happening to a huge degree in Japan. The Wii - a symbol of the mainstream, traditionally non-gamer market - is selling many times more units than the PS3 - a symbol of the hardcore market.

[BlackPete]

I'm sure GTA and Halo 3 are going to sell truckloads, but what I mean is if the market expands and more and more people who are traditionally non-gamers are pulled in - the type of people who have never found sci-fi epic or gangster games attractive - then the marketshare percentage of the hardcore audience is going to drop.

This is happening to a huge degree in Japan. The Wii - a symbol of the mainstream, traditionally non-gamer market - is selling many times more units than the PS3 - a symbol of the hardcore market.

Pretty much what I was trying to say as well. Hardcores aren't going anywhere, but if (and it's still a pretty big if) Nintendo brings in non-gamers the way they did with Sudoku and Brain Age on the DS, hardcores will be dwarfed into a niche market. Again, it depends on that "if". It remains to be seen whether Nintendo will succeed (maybe only partially), but this is what they're trying to accomplish.

[shnastybiznastic]

Pretty much what I was trying to say as well. Hardcores aren't going anywhere, but if (and it's still a pretty big if) Nintendo brings in non-gamers the way they did with Sudoku and Brain Age on the DS, hardcores will be dwarfed into a niche market. Again, it depends on that "if". It remains to be seen whether Nintendo will succeed (maybe only partially), but this is what they're trying to accomplish.
But the prototypical example of The preexisting market becoming a niche does not illustrate this. That is to say, the DS does not want for games that appeal to the hardcore (I hate that descriptor). If anything the example of the DS indicates that both the new and old markets can exist side by side.

[KingGorilla]

These kinds of statements are the feces created when arrogance eats ignorance. I’d love to hear the actual logic behind such statements, or the attempt at formulating logic to support it, it’d be amusing. Maybe they mean when people enter high school they’ll want it because of the sex and violence, but once they’re post pubescent they’ll go back to Nintendo :).
What is funny is that the people working at Sony, Microsoft, and the studios I mentioned said that. That was not me talking. Peter Moore, J Allard, Kutaragi, Harrison have all been on record in interviews saying that they are happy to cater to the gamers nintendo brings in once they grow up. I love the hardcore Nintendo gamers, despite the fact that Nintendo's number one franchise is a cartoon tie-in game...it is not for kids.

[DangerousDaze]

...they are happy to cater to the gamers nintendo brings in once they grow up.
Like these guys (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_ARvhT6Gzc), you mean? It's a mistake to think that Ninendo only appeal to the younger audience.

[JimmyDanger]

As much as I like Animal Crossing (well 3 years ago when it came out and I played it to death) - and I'm 30 now - I think calling it a hit with 20 somethings or casual mass market gamers - even to a quarter of the extent of the reach of the GTA's and Madden's is a bit of a stretch.

(Though Pokemon Diamond is a hit with this 30 year old at the moment - spelunking!)

[RMan]

What is funny is that the people working at Sony, Microsoft, and the studios I mentioned said that. That was not me talking.
Yea, I realized that, I remembered a statement like that from MS or Epic (can’t recall which). I’d just love to hear them explain such a thing, but I’m sure it wasn’t well thought out. I think it was just a reaction to a series of shockers, they really didn’t know how else to spin Nintendo’s success with a philosophy nearly opposite to their own. I think the people tucked so tightly in the middle of the box were genuinely confused when people responded to the Wii as they have, they never really tried to examine what people want, they only delivered what they always have and expected people to respond with the same enthusiasm that they did when they had no choice. Regardless, I’m sure these comments were generally regretted, it’s not a good idea to insult your customer (unless you’re a dominatrix, I suppose :)).

[bean19]

The Wii's game library so far is just as kid-oriented as the Gamecubes. Sure, there are a smattering of Mature titles in the making, but the very best titles on the system are first-party Nintendo games that are universally designed for children.

You don't just wish that image away, and repeating the same behavior over and over doesn't rid you of it either.

[Apex]

Decades from now, PS3 vs. Wii will be remembered as a cautionary business tale: how pride, politics, and an overabundance of technology can blind you to the simple truth of what consumers want.

Somes the whole situation up perfectly I think.

[KingGorilla]

Remembered? How many of you are old enough to have seen a console older than a PS1, let alone remember the great console wars of the early 90's?

[Ancalagon]

I'm not very old but I had a NES with a whole library of games, and also had a Mega Drive II (aka Genesis in America). I saw my cousins original game boy once, it was almost literally the size of a brick.

[KingGorilla]

Bricks are smaller...and lighter...and for some reason get better battery life.

[Ancalagon]

I hear gameboys make good weapons. thrown game boys have been known to break through armor plated glass and crush bones like straw.

having one thrown at you has been rated as a more dangerous scenario than being locked in a 3 x 3 metre room with a bear who was raised on nothing but meat and steriods, has been starved for 2 weeks, and then beaten with a whip before being locked in the room with you.

[Dr.Finger]

Now, HERE'S the fun stuff: Blu-ray movies. It costs Sony virtually nothing to make Blu-ray transfers from movies, because the movie costs are recouped by theater ticket sales, so the actual content is cheap and easy to duplicate. They still pocket a fair amount of money for each Blu-ray disc sold, even after any royalties are paid to the movie makers. THAT is where they hope to recoup the PS3 costs.

Watch the fireworks when Spiderman 3 (a wholly-owned Sony property) makes its ONLY appearance on Blu-ray, this Christmas. I seriously doubt it will be available on DVD; it will be a catalyst to spur Blu-ray player sales.I just can't see Sony not releasing it on DVD at all. They may release a stripped down DVD version and load up the BR with special features, but they would lose way too much money not putting it on DVD. No one movie will move people to buy a Hi-Def movie player, it may influence people to buy one over the other, but not to actually buy one in the first place.

[Gorvi]

I just can't see Sony not releasing it on DVD at all. They may release a stripped down DVD version and load up the BR with special features, but they would lose way too much money not putting it on DVD. No one movie will move people to buy a Hi-Def movie player, it may influence people to buy one over the other, but not to actually buy one in the first place.
They could, though, release it on BR a month or so before it comes out to DVD. They wouldn't be shooting themselves in the foot for DVD sales, but that would probably push a few BR players.

[Dr.Finger]

It's time that everyone here accepted some cold hard truths:

- Playstation 3 is DOA. Sony themselves recognise this - with internal shake ups and the forced retirment for the guy who was spearheading the project.

- With the momentum Wii has and the mainstream recognition and love it's getting, it's going to overtake Xbox 360 in total sales quite quickly.

- The gaming landscape is changing. Xbox 360 and PS3 represent the past; defined by complicated, dark, violent, male-centric games full of marines and monsters; gaming for basements - whereas Wii and DS represent the future - gaming brought into the sunlight, for the whole family to enjoy, including gramps. Gaming that can be talked about on mainstream TV shows and in mainstream magazines.

I know that most of you here are hardcore gamers and love those dark violent shooty games, and don't want this to be true, and want to dismiss Wii as a novelty toy that's gonna just disappear once the fad has died down...but this isn't a fad. Things have changed. And like it or not, the whole hardcore gamer thing is going to become more marginalised in the future.

- Nintendo deserve credit. They stood back from the market and thought about how to expand sales of their next products, then put that strategy into action, resulting in huge success. The success that they're having is not accidental, and it's not just because 'Sony shot themselves in the foot', it's because Nintendo had a really friggin smart plan.1 - Kutaragi got the boot because it did poorly, not because Sony is giving up on it. Nothing short of Armageddon will make Sony abandon the PS3 before 2010.

2 - I love the Wii, but how many people have one or fewer games (other than Wii sports) for it? Maybe that will change, but the attach rate for it isn't good right now.

3 - Do they still make movies that are complicated, dark, violent, male-centric and full of marines and monsters? Then they'll still make games like that. Opening up the market for other types of games is great, but there will always be a big market for testosterone laden games.

[Ancalagon]

2 - I love the Wii, but how many people have one or fewer games (other than Wii sports) for it? Maybe that will change, but the attach rate for it isn't good right now.


actually I saw stats somewhere that said 4 wii games are sold for every wii - not bad.

[MaxDuo]

The Wii's game library so far is just as kid-oriented as the Gamecubes. Sure, there are a smattering of Mature titles in the making, but the very best titles on the system are first-party Nintendo games that are universally designed for children.

Nintendo will never drop friendly to kids games... They get good sales from them. Can't expect them to say: "Forget money! We have to make violent games and nothing else!" because the competition has a ton of bloody violent games.

But also..... I have a Wii and I have 5 games for it, counting Wii Sports. I hadn't really noticed this extreme amount of children's games on it. Maybe most of them have been kid friendly, but I hadn't noticed that almost all of them were designed for babies and little children in mind. Guess I just haven't been too observant huh?


Remembered? How many of you are old enough to have seen a console older than a PS1, let alone remember the great console wars of the early 90's?

I got my NES in 1988 and the SNES the year it came out.... :) I remember wanting a Genesis but never getting one :( But in the end I always was more Pro SNES.... I did really want Sonic though. And Vectorman.

[superstring]

Do they still make movies that are complicated, dark, violent, male-centric and full of marines and monsters? Then they'll still make games like that. Opening up the market for other types of games is great, but there will always be a big market for testosterone laden games.

Yeah, there will, but what I'm saying is the era of domination by those types of games is being overtaken by the era of games for a wider audience, as evidenced by success in market and mindshare of the Wii versus Ps3 and 360, or the DS versus PSP.

[BlackPete]

Remembered? How many of you are old enough to have seen a console older than a PS1, let alone remember the great console wars of the early 90's?

I've been through the Great Console War between the ColecoVision and Atari right up until the First Great Crash! :eek: Intellivision was the Dreamcast of those days.

And all I got was the NGage of gaming... the Leisure Vision :(

[BlackPete]

You don't just wish that image away, and repeating the same behavior over and over doesn't rid you of it either.

Kinda like the XBox being a FPS machine eh?

[jacktion]

I think that the importance of who is selling more actual console units is not the important number here and never has been. Sure it might be fun as fanboys to say "oh my god my console sold 1hundredbiullion!!1 yourz only 2??!!"
But in reality this doesn't matter. These are businesses. If the number of units was really important than Sony would sell them each for 1 dollar.
The only important thing here is if the company is making money.
If you sell one unit and your company makes a lot of money than that is all that matters.
So really when we look at this gen and say that the Wii is "winning" because it is selling more units, is that real? The number we should be looking at is who is making more money. Of course in that situation it just so happens that Nintendo is also winning but it does not necessarily have to be so.
If you look at Ferrari it does not sell many units but it is still a successful company.
Of course, it sells each unit at a profit unlike Sony.

We can also look at last gen and see that though Nintendo was not moving very many console units, they overwhelmingly had greater profits. So number of units is not the be all end all of console domination.

[Tel Prydain]

But as a gamer I don't care if big N are making money - I want something with lots of games.