Square-Enix Prefers to Stay Physical

[Dr.Finger]

Physical Media, that is. SqEnix honcho Shinji Hashimoto, in an interview with Nintendo Dream, a Japanese publication (thanks to IGN (http://ps3.ign.com/articles/782/782629p1.html) for the translation) had some interesting things to say about the chances of seeing the Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest franchises available for download.
We feel that the Japanese game market still requires media," explained Hashimoto. "Also, FF and Dragon Quest are played by a wide range of users, from children to adults, so there are limitations when you consider the problems that we would have with billing systems."Hashimoto also discusses the DS, the differences between how Nintendo manages the Zelda franchise compared to SqEnix' shepherding of the Final Fantasy property, and the proposed thousand year reign of Final Fantasy XIII.

Thanks to 1UP (http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3158958).

Is this viewpoint on downloadables just another cultural difference between Japan and the west, or does Hashimoto have a valid point about 'their users' not haveing access to the necessary billing systems?

[Heretic Machine]

Just bullshit, basically they know they can charge more for physical copies of their games, even if they are just ports or remakes. They wouldn't get away with it in a digital-only medium.

[Sl1pstream]

Do those billing problems include less money for them?

Would it hurt them that much to put these up for download? Let's say they re-release Final Fantasy VII. In that retail box they include a card that lets people know that, if they enjoyed the remake, they can also download the original version from Xbox Live Arcade/Playstation Network Store/Virtual Console for a small fee. Wouldn't that make them even more money?

[Incidence]

There is an argument to be made with regards to kids not having access to credit cards so they would be shut out, but lets be honest here, if your not old enough to have a credit card then what are you doing buying games without parental approval?

[Valkyrist]

In all honesty, I see two points:

1. If Squeenix went digital, people of all ages would find ways to get it. If people really want their product that bad, they would. If it's mundane news for a person even in the US to buy a $600 system because that's where the FF games are going to be, then this is really a moot argument.

2. It is quite likely, though, that this process will be a pain in the ass for many of their customers. And quite honestly, they're doing fine w/o downloadable games. Why fix something that isn't broken?

[Doctorossi]

Just bullshit, basically they know they can charge more for physical copies of their games, even if they are just ports or remakes. They wouldn't get away with it in a digital-only medium.

QFT.

They can sell FF3 on VC for $5-10. Or, they can sell FF3 remake #9 at a retailer for $30-40. Which would you choose?

[Sl1pstream]

Why fix something that isn't broken?

Because having the original Vagrant Story digitally distributed is a good thing?

[Venkman]

THey are still selling physical copies of the NES and SNES based games on other platforms for a much higher price.

[SPBTooL]

I'm kind of in between. I want to have the physical media but I also am lazy and would like to play any game I own with out changing a disc. Part of that is probably from my PC gaming background and all the No-CD hacks I used.

[agentgray]

Just bullshit, basically they know they can charge more for physical copies of their games, even if they are just ports or remakes. They wouldn't get away with it in a digital-only medium.
Have you seen most of the prices on Steam?

Digital delivery is not that much cheaper, if at all. I think they could make money at both media delivery systems.

[Doctorossi]

Have you seen most of the prices on Steam?

Digital delivery is not that much cheaper, if at all.

That's irrelevant. This is an explanation of their disinterest in Nintendo's Virtual Console, an environment in which they wouldn't be able to get away with Steam-like prices.

[Wraith]

If they can build a reliable system, where you don't have to worry about losing your downloaded game if your hardware dies, or your connection craps out in the middle of a big download, I don't see a problem with having the download option available.

But I think they do have to always have the hard media option. Some people, believe it or not, just don't have credit cards. Some people don't have broadband internet access. Some people would prefer driving to the store and buying a game off the shelf, rather than waiting for a game to download. And part of it is psychological - being able to actually hold this thing you've bought in your hand, rather than it simply existing somewhere on a hard drive or memory card.

*Edit* Ah, I though this was more about the future of digital distribution, rather than specific to classic games for Virtual Console.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Interesting note about Square: It appears that Final Fantasy 12 sold less copies (although more are to be sold in the future) than Final Fantasy 6. That's not good for them - I guess that 5-year break between 10 and 12 made people forget about the series.

[Jack B]

I think his answer about "problems with billing systems" must need more explanation. A better reason for the bigger titles would be bandwidth issues. For smaller titles, that likely wouldn't be an issue.

As for billing system issues, both Microsoft with MS Points and PSN Network with a credit card on file make it pretty easy to purchase. Kids can do it as well as adults unless they get locked out (I assume PSN allows for purchasing locks too).

Anyway, the PS4 may not have a physical drive for media. I assume the vision of digital distribution isn't hitting home with Square just yet, but it will be hard not to offer DD is an option at least in the next few years.

That's my take.

[Fonz]

Well japan releases a lot of their game soundtracks on vinyl, that should hint where they are when it comes to digital distribution. Personally I wish we had the game shops they have in JP, pretty much like treasure hunting once you step inside the shop doors. I would swear off DLC, but unfortantely we have gamestop and EB......

[EvilBob46]

Interesting note about Square: It appears that Final Fantasy 12 sold less copies (although more are to be sold in the future) than Final Fantasy 6.

Where are you getting this from? Final Fantasy VI sold about 3.5 million copies worldwide. Final Fantasy XII is at 5 million according to vgchartz.com (http://www.vgchartz.com/worldtotals.php?name=&console=&publisher=&sort=Total).

Since the above doesn't cite its sources, I found the following concrete data:

2.38 million in Japan (exact number)
http://www.rpgfan.com/news/2006/1287.html

1.3 M million in the USA (Up to December 2006 only, NPD figures)
http://videogames.yahoo.com/newsarticle?eid=500657&page=0

3.68 million with outdated numbers and no sales data from Europe. I think 5 million is not a stretch with the missing information. Either way, it sold more than FFVI, although it has been less successful than FFX.

EDIT:
It's worth noting that there was a substantial decrease in sales for the Playstation 1 era games from one to the next:

FFVII: 9.72 Million

FFVIII: 7.86 Million

FFIX: 5.30 Million

FFX reversed the trend by selling 7.95 million.

[SubversiveJustin]

I'll always prefer to have a physical copy of the media- be it a game, CD or DVD.

Call me old fashioned, but I'm very much not into downloading full priced software. I am cool with 10 dollar games on XBLA and downloadable extras.. but as far as CD's, DVD's, and full games I'll always want a physical copy.

No, I am not Japanese.

[Gorvi]

Because Square Enix, unlike a lot of other publishers/developers, can get away with selling their older remade games at full price, and people will buy them. That's pretty much it.

[Kamalot]

They can sell FF3 on VC for $5-10. Or, they can sell FF3 remake #9 at a retailer for $30-40. Which would you choose?
This post flipped Squeenix over onto its back and hit its weak point for massive damage.

Quoted for truth.

[lockwoodx]

Square Enix is taking a lesson from chapter 5, verse 32x out of the Micro$oft bible on squeezing every penny out of your customer.

[noxa]

The credit card stuff is BS. You can buy Microsoft point cards in stores, with cash. No different than prepaid cell phones, which kids are using now.

[Resarf]

Interesting note about Square: It appears that Final Fantasy 12 sold less copies (although more are to be sold in the future) than Final Fantasy 6. That's not good for them - I guess that 5-year break between 10 and 12 made people forget about the series.

Wasn't it XII that was leaked onto torrent sites a month or so before it's official release? That might account in part for the poorer than average sales. Maybe Squeenix have security concerns about digital distribution?

[Kamalot]

Wasn't it XII that was leaked onto torrent sites a month or so before it's official release? That might account in part for the poorer than average sales. Maybe Squeenix have security concerns about digital distribution?
Sounds like they should have security concerns about traditional disc-based media.

[agentgray]

That's irrelevant. This is an explanation of their disinterest in Nintendo's Virtual Console, an environment in which they wouldn't be able to get away with Steam-like prices.
I think it is. Steam is showing that people will pay those prices. I hate VC pricing as much as the next guy, but this goes back to the pricing of games in general. Part of why they are those prices is because people pay for them.

At it's base level the same ideology is used in SPAM. We have it because some idiot out there actually clicks on it.

[mkelehan]

Well then, when the PS4 doesn't have a disc drive like Sony predicts, I guess they're going Xbox 3 exclusive. This will be enough to turn the tides for MS in Japan, and then more Japanese developers will come aboard. This will give it the software support it needs to destroy Sony, who will go from first with the PS2 to last with the PS4. Such a huge blow to their gaming division will cause Sony to lose a tremendous amount of value, until it is forced to close its doors. Ken Kutaragi will commit ritual suicide.

You heard it here first!

At it's base level the same ideology is used in SPAM. We have it because some idiot out there actually clicks on it.

It's me. I keep hoping one of them will help me with my tiny penis.

...but back on topic. If SE isn't ready for the VC, then can someone explain what Actraiser's doing up there?

[KamaItachi]

If they're so against digital distribution then why do they have versions of FF for mobile phones in Japan?

[KingGorilla]

Isn't Square one of the few publishers/developers who own their own stampling plants?

[Ilikecapcom]

Maybe I am in the minority, but I want physical media to stay. I personally would rather have a copy of a game I buy in my hand. I'm weird though...

[KingGorilla]

Maybe I am in the minority, but I want physical media to stay. I personally would rather have a copy of a game I buy in my hand. I'm weird though...
No one talks about full conversion. But just as more people prefer to rent movies than buy DVDs, we are shifting to a point where more people will download a song, movie, or game than buy them at a store. More channels of distribution, is untilmately good for the consumer. As things like Steam and Gamefly take off, notice how much more aggressively the box stores and sites like Amazon.com are pricing their goods, and how paying for shipping has all but disappeared? I download a lot of games...but I buy a lot at Amazon and Go Gamer as well.
But I am not a collector, and that is the niche that gets worried from Digital Distribution. But the collectors, ultimately, are destructive as well. They hoarde rare games and will not release them. Read into the emulation community a bit, in particular 3D0, Saturn, Amiga, and more.

[Valkyrist]

Because having the original Vagrant Story digitally distributed is a good thing?

I'm sorry, but what rock did you crawl out of? I wasn't dumb enough to sell mine...

/pets ancient copy of VS.

For that matter, I still have my original carts of SoM and Chrono Trigger. Not that you can't get ROMs of any of those ::cough::

[KingGorilla]

2. It is quite likely, though, that this process will be a pain in the ass for many of their customers. And quite honestly, they're doing fine w/o downloadable games. Why fix something that isn't broken?

The entire situation of a retail dominated distribution of games is what is really broken in this conversation. Console games, especially. While Digital Distribution and E-tailing PC games has nearly removed all PC titles from store shelves, because the consumer found Amazon.com and Digital Download to be preferred methods of purchase.

[Valkyrist]

The entire situation of a retail dominated distribution of games is what is really broken in this conversation. Console games, especially. While Digital Distribution and E-tailing PC games has nearly removed all PC titles from store shelves, because the consumer found Amazon.com and Digital Download to be preferred methods of purchase.
Looks at *physical* copies of Call of Duty, BF2142, Doom 3, HalfLife2, World of Warcraft expasion, etc...

Yeah, you're bat s**t insane. Yes, your hardcore, savvy gamer will buy digital copies of the latest game. But your AVERAGE consumer will still go to gamestop or walmart and pick up a copy. Just like they've done for the last 20 years. It's going to take a LOT longer before the majority of game-buyers thinks of digital distribution as a normal method of purchasing a new game.

Square knows this. They obviously make more money this way (cause they'd be singing a different tune if that wasn't the case, let's not kid ourselves). So they're sticking with physical discs for the time being. That's not to say in 2-3 years, they won't change that stance...but for the time being, they're simply not jumping on the bandwagon that all the hardcore gamers want them to.

Ask yourself a simple question:

If Squeenix only releases physical remakes-rereleases of their old games, will they still sell rediculously well?

Yes?

Well then there's your answer.

The point is they don't ***NEED*** digital distribution. It's more trouble than it's worth to them. At least for now.

[KingGorilla]

By "average" are you neglecting the millions of people who play digitally distributed casual games like PartyPoker, Bejeweled, Popcap games like Peggle and Bookworm adventures, as well as new classics like Darwinia or Defcon? As well as the Gamefly users and all the people on Miniclip, Yahoo, and MSN games?

And if you look at the data on Steam, the vast majority if their users are NOT hardcore gamers, they are casual and "average" consumer gamers as you call them.

[Sl1pstream]

I'm sorry, but what rock did you crawl out of? I wasn't dumb enough to sell mine...

I'm sorry that not everyone has always had the cash to buy every single game. I was on a budget back then, selling games I finished was the only way I could afford new games.

[KingGorilla]

I'm sorry that not everyone has always had the cash to buy every single game. I was on a budget back then, selling games I finished was the only way I could afford new games.
I say this alot: He's yellow, who gives a fuck what he says?

[[Jez]]

I say this alot: He's yellow, who gives a fuck what he says?
Well I feel unloved now.... *sniff*

[appaws]

Actraiser being up there is proof of the whole capitalist argument. They don't really have a consistent "position" on this (and why should they?) They can't make money rereleasing an updated version of this game to retail....but DQ and FF games they can. Bottom line. So Actraiser goes up, FF does not.

I am surprised how worked up people get over this. I prefer the nice updated versions of these games as long as they don't tinker too much with the original gameplay. As a "$$$ to time" ratio, you can't get any better than these types of games. You can pick up things like Dawn of Souls or the Phantasy Star Collection for GBA really cheap, and get TONS of hours of great gaming out of it. I am happy with that.

[Kamalot]

Yes, your hardcore, savvy gamer will buy digital copies of the latest game. But your AVERAGE consumer will still go to gamestop or walmart and pick up a copy. Just like they've done for the last 20 years. It's going to take a LOT longer before the majority of game-buyers thinks of digital distribution as a normal method of purchasing a new game.
I remember these same arguments being made about digital distribution of music.

[Arglor]

I remember these same arguments being made about digital distribution of music.

I know I'm yellow, so I shall be ignored, but i think this analogy has one major problem with it. Storage Size.

Digital Music exploded because of mp3. A unique method of storing quality sound using very little storage space.

The problem with downloading games and movies is that their storage becomes more costly then having physical media. In order for something like this to work one of three alternatives must occur:

1) Digital storage space must become cheaper. This could very well happen in 5 or 10 years, but If i'm expected to download my games (which cannot be re-sold afterwards) I better be able to easily store it. You can give the argument that you can burn it on a dvd, but i say that if I'm going to take the time to burn it on a dvd, just give me a damn dvd.

2) Standardization in pc/console game construction that allows for game files to "share files" and be stored (zipped etc.) in smaller portions of digital storage. Major disadvantage is that originality begins to wane.

3) Bandwith expansion to average consumer. The last option would be that you can download large amounts of data in a miniscule amount of time. This is also something that may happen in the next 5 or 10 years with fiberoptics, but it hasn't become average.

these are just my thoughts.

[Dr.Finger]

I don't really buy SquEnix' argument. Yeah its marginally more difficult (in some ways) to buy a $5 game on Live than it is to buy a $5 game at the store, but not so much that it invalidates the process. They know that people won't pay $30 to DL a 15-20 year old game, but they'll buy the umpteenth updated version on the PSP for that much.

[Kamalot]

I know I'm yellow, so I shall be ignored, but i think this analogy has one major problem with it. Storage Size.

Digital Music exploded because of mp3. A unique method of storing quality sound using very little storage space.

The problem with downloading games and movies is that their storage becomes more costly then having physical media. In order for something like this to work one of three alternatives must occur:

1) Digital storage space must become cheaper. This could very well happen in 5 or 10 years, but If i'm expected to download my games (which cannot be re-sold afterwards) I better be able to easily store it. You can give the argument that you can burn it on a dvd, but i say that if I'm going to take the time to burn it on a dvd, just give me a damn dvd.

2) Standardization in pc/console game construction that allows for game files to "share files" and be stored (zipped etc.) in smaller portions of digital storage. Major disadvantage is that originality begins to wane.

3) Bandwith expansion to average consumer. The last option would be that you can download large amounts of data in a miniscule amount of time. This is also something that may happen in the next 5 or 10 years with fiberoptics, but it hasn't become average.

these are just my thoughts.
Like I said. I remember these arguments about digital music distribution. Storage prices continue to plummet. Compare hard drive size or Flash drive size to what was available 2 years ago. I'm sure we have more than a few people he who can tell stories of their first hard drive with, what seemed at the time, VAST amounts of space (40 MB HD). My friend's first MP3 player was 128 MB. My MP3 player is now 60 gigs.

Actually, I don't understand why you want modular games. People don't expect modular music or modular movies...

Bandwidth is constantly expanding. My neighbor who uses DSL just got a free, and substantial, bump in his bandwidth. I have Fiber Optic to my home. Bandwidth will increase. It simply does.

As bandwidth and storage capacity increase, digital distribution will expand to fill both. It started with music, and it will continue with movies and games.

To say otherwise is foolish.

Edit: I respect people's arguments and discussions based on their content, not the color of their name.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Where are you getting this from? Final Fantasy VI sold about 3.5 million copies worldwide. Final Fantasy XII is at 5 million according to vgchartz.com (http://www.vgchartz.com/worldtotals.php?name=&console=&publisher=&sort=Total).

Since the above doesn't cite its sources, I found the following concrete data:

2.38 million in Japan (exact number)
http://www.rpgfan.com/news/2006/1287.html

1.3 M million in the USA (Up to December 2006 only, NPD figures)
http://videogames.yahoo.com/newsarticle?eid=500657&page=0

3.68 million with outdated numbers and no sales data from Europe. I think 5 million is not a stretch with the missing information. Either way, it sold more than FFVI, although it has been less successful than FFX.

EDIT:
It's worth noting that there was a substantial decrease in sales for the Playstation 1 era games from one to the next:

FFVII: 9.72 Million

FFVIII: 7.86 Million

FFIX: 5.30 Million

FFX reversed the trend by selling 7.95 million.


The short version? I forgot Europe, and couldn't find GOOD data for FF6 outside of Japan.

However, those numbers are still a lot lower than 10. Might be the less gigantic ad campaign, though.

[hogi]

I haven't posted in a while so here my couple cents on some of these topics:

Billing: Japanese banking system really sucks. Last I was there, 2002, ATM stop working at 5pm or 6pm. Just like the tellers. Some banks, Sony, use 24/7 as their main draw to new customers.

Japan for most part is still a cash only society. I tried to buy a LCD monitor with a credit card. However they had difficulties since my purchase required them to ring the bank to confirm my credit is good (I exceeded their floor limit). I had to tell them what to do. Took a while as my Japanese was crap. Try using credit card is any small shop and they show they are not happy. Although as suggested value cards should work for well.

It was only recently (2004) that my friend is finally getting paid directly in his bank account. He was paid in a large wad of cash each month.

Digital Distribution: I love this. Now that I am in Australia, bandwidth here is stupidly expensive. I only get 10gig limit and that goes rather quickly. Not to mention it is expensive. So Australia may have issues when comes to games that are in the gigs size.

Personally I still prefer a hard copy. However depending on the size of the game, downloading is fine and would be happy to embrace DD.