Who Buys This Crap?

[Kamalot]

Games Radar takes a look at a number of series that consistently put out less than stellar games and asks the question, "Who buys this CRAP? (http://www.gamesradar.com/us/ds/game/news/article.jsp?sectionId=1006&articleId=2007042391755391074&releaseId=20060308162345714070)" They cover series like Armored Core, Gundam, Army Men, and the countless hunting games that appear. Gundam
Number of games in series - 15 (US)
Average score from Metacritic - 5.9

To the average Japanese gamer, insulting the Gundam universe is on par with socking their mother in the face with a flaming crowbar. Anyone who's spent five minutes in Japan knows how entrenched this franchise is within the general populace. Multiple stores within spitting distance of each other stock countless racks of robotic merchandise ranging from models to toys to socks to balloons to toothbrushes. If it's white, pointy and can hold a gun, it sells. Gundam is Japan's very own Star Wars, a world within a world that will never go away.

Despite its legendary status, the games are downright terrible. The Gundam universe didn't make its grand US entrance until 2000, yet since then we've already seen 15 games blob onto store shelves. That ludicrous number is ignoring the countless Japan-only releases that go as far back as the NES and as wide as the Wonderswan Color. And, just like Armored Core, somehow the concept of giant robots wielding arm cannons and laser swords manages to be dull, lifeless and repetitive. How in the world is that possible, and why do people keep lapping it up? Take a stand and let one or two of these turds flop so the developers get the hint. Even the PS3 game, Crossfire, which should have knocked our eyeballs into our ankles, failed to impress in any way at all. Zuh?What other series can you think of that have simply failed to elevate themselves from 'meh' status and could go for a reinvention (Resident Evil 4, Tomb Raider), or retirement?

[Gorvi]

Mega Man. That series needs a serious overhaul. And as much as I hate to say it, Castlevania. They can only keep selling SotN so many times.

[protocol_image]

woah now........i'm sure i'm not alone when i say that RE4 was an incredible game......and the Tomb Raider that was on 360 was actually a good game that did a good job reinventing the series

but i would agree that too many people buy Cabela (sp?) hunting games

[Gorvi]

woah now........i'm sure i'm not alone when i say that RE4 was an incredible game......and the Tomb Raider that was on 360 was actually a good game that did a good job reinventing the series

but i would agree that too many people buy Cabela (sp?) hunting games
Kam was giving those as examples of turning a flagging series around.

[karak]

...I bought dangerous game from Cabela. I saw a pal play it as a rental and I had a blast. It actually had amazing graphics for its time on the xbox and was fun looking for tracks and possibly getting attacked. For 10 bucks it offered more than 40 hours of fun.
So I guess...I buy that crap.

[protocol_image]

Kam was giving those as examples of turning a flagging series around.
ah, i can read it that way now that you mention it.......at first glance it seemed like those were examples of games that NEED overhaul'n

[Sandman]

Gundam has a few ok games here and there but it sells in Japan because the anime is mega popular. And they seem to be crazy for giant robots over there.

[Dag-Sabot]

The Ghost Recon series and Gran Turismo.

[PsychoticVile]

Sonic the Hedgehog & the TMNT games could all use a good rework. Also pretty much every EA sports title is in the "meh" area as every year they seem to take out some feature that was really good and replace it with nothing or some stupid buggy feature. EA has been doing the 4 major sports franchises for 15+ years now you would think they could go at least one year without releasing a game that didn't lack previous gameplay modes and wasn't riddled with bugs.

[Kamalot]

Sonic the Hedgehog
Mega Man
Tokyo Xtreme Racer
Metal Gear Solid (I know I'm gonna take flack for that one)
All of World War II

[51|RandoM]

Halo. They appear to be so afraid of breaking the core experience that they don't manage to advance it in any significant fashion.

[bryan]

Oh my kingdom for a decent Gundam game that would reflect the sheer awesomeness of the anime.

BTW I don't like Seed.

[Gorvi]

Sonic the Hedgehog
Mega Man
Tokyo Xtreme Racer
Metal Gear Solid (I know I'm gonna take flack for that one)
All of World War II
What do you feel is growing stale about MGS? Really, the game is coming off of probably the best entry in the series (MGS3 Subsistance). No flack, I'm just curious as to why you think that.

WWII, on the other hand, just needs to take a decade long vacation from games.

[Lord Nerdious]

Any sports game.... I mean seriously, it's the SAME SHIT every year. Innovation? Psh.

[Maskatron]

The Tenchu series. The first one was fun back when the PS1 was in it's prime, but now they just keep putting out the same game with slightly updated graphics and the same brain dead AI and glitches. There is so much potential there for a bad ass ninja sneak game.

[Tik-Tok]

I don't understand how the Resident Evil series could be viewed as failing franchise that's been turned around and I don't think I'm alone on that one.
At any rate.

Grand Theft Auto. Dull... boring... stale.

I agree that Metal Gear 3 was weak... I couldn't get past the outside parts because I kept losing interest. Maybe thats why I think it was weak because I didn't get into the meat of the game or something.

[Kamalot]

What do you feel is growing stale about MGS? Really, the game is coming off of probably the best entry in the series (MGS3 Subsistance). No flack, I'm just curious as to why you think that.

WWII, on the other hand, just needs to take a decade long vacation from games.
Maybe just me, but I can't stand the series. Dull, slow and convoluted for no reason other than being convoluted, the series could die tomorrow and I wouldn't shed a tear. There is more hype than substance in the Metal Gear series. Perhaps it has its moments, but I'm not slogging through so much crap to find a few nuggets of something tasty.

How about Driver?
I'd also put Doom on there.
Ridge Racer
The Outlaw series of sport titles or any other takes on taking normal sports and filling them with smack-talking avatars.

[LostToys]

Classic Tenchu Dialgoue: "It is such a beautiful night to take a walk". A new Tenchu would be great.

I agree that Sonic needs to either be put to sleep or go back to its 2D roots. The DS games are a step in the right direction.

Gran Turismo needs to get real. They need real AI, real physics, and real world damage modeling.

Call of Duty. We have been playing this same game for the past 7 years. Please come up with something more interesting and/or original.

Shinig Force. Sega has killed this property over the years. Shining Force III on the Genesis is still one of my favorite games.

Way of the Samurai. The first game was brilliant. Then they fucked with the formula and made every strike an instant kill in the sequal. I will not speak of the third title ... ever.

[Gorvi]

Maybe just me, but I can't stand the series. Dull, slow and convoluted for no reason other than being convoluted, the series could die tomorrow and I wouldn't shed a tear. There is more hype than substance in the Metal Gear series. Perhaps it has its moments, but I'm not slogging through so much crap to find a few nuggets of something tasty.

How about Driver?
I'd also put Doom on there.
Ridge Racer
The Outlaw series of sport titles or any other takes on taking normal sports and filling them with smack-talking avatars.
Eh, the style of game isn't for you then. Your complaints are just the way the series is.

Driver needs to die, but was it ever a good series?
I actually enjoyed Doom 3, it's not like they've been milking the series.
RR is hit or miss.
I hate the Outlaw series. It's bursting with XTREME ATTITUDE..... yeah.

[wezlypipz]

I have to agree that Armored Core could use some innovation, but they are still great games. Same thing for Romance of the Three Kingdoms.

[Dr.Finger]

Dynasty Warriors. The concept is good, but Koei puts out the same game every six months and they all sell. Not as much here as in Japan but still tons more than the series deserves right now.

[noxa]

Ridge Racer

Although I agree there has been very little innovation here (RR1 PSP to RR2 PSP, RR6 360 to RR7 PS3), RR6 with the 360 wheel has been the most fun I've had racing in ages, and RR2 PSP is the best portable racer out there.

[jpublic]

Phantasy Star. Sega, the PSO formula is tired. Try going back to the RPG one, we haven't seen that in a while.

WW2-based anything. Enough already.

[phantomhitman]

MAD FUCKING DEN

most horrible piece of garbage to ever grace any system....ever.

[IrishWhiskey]

Here's another contentious one: Castlevania

Yes, the GBA and DS games were good but they've barely changed at all since Symphony of the Night. And there still hasn't been a good 3D attempt to translate that world. Some sort of Devil May Cry/Metroid Prime fusion would be awesome. And while I still enjoy the classic 2D games, I can't see myself continue to buy them when almost nothing changes from game to game. Its like a random map generator.

[Johan]

Everyone buys some crap games at one time or another. Who doesn't have a title or two on their shelf or hard drive that they never play because it just turned out to be lousy? I've got several of those! More than I would like.

Some of this "crap" is just familiar and simple fun. Call of Duty is the same basic game over and over, but it's fun, people enjoy it, it's pretty reliable in terms of what you can expect, and hence it sells; a lot. I enjoyed CoD2 immensely. CoD3, not so much...

[Rafer]

Tony Hawk, big time. Skate looks like what I've been waiting for, a fresh take on the genre.
Silent Hill.
The entire "fighting game" genre.
The Matrix, I still think there could be a really interesting game set in that universe.
Castlevania 2d... getting stale, no problem with 2d gameplay mind you, I just want to see something new.

As for racing game genre, I'd still like to see something like a racing RPG, I know it's been tried before but it could give a series like Ridge Racer a boost if done well.

[IrishWhiskey]

Hell, let me pile on that even more: Zelda

I though that Ocarina of Time was one of my favorite games ever. But they haven't moved beyond that in a way like Zelda I or Link to the Past did. Majora's was practically a side story to that game (though I loved it) and Twilight Princess was basically Ocarina 2.0. At this point the design is starting to show its age, as I felt bored playing the game doing the same old puzzles with the same old solutions. Ocarina was startlingly new, a breath of fresh air. TP was improved, but heavily recycled. Fortunately Nintendo did say that TP would be the last one in that style, and they were making a break, so I think they know the series has to evolve. Hopefully they won't be afraid to break with convention.

[Kamalot]

Mario Party


That's right. I'm looking at you plumber-boy.

[Salamande]

Armored Core, to be fair, is kind of in a class all its own. It's not really for everyone, and the people who play it and dig it would cry bloody murder if it was changed significantly (hell, people bitched about Armored Core 4's boosting increase until they figured out it actually made the game better). It's like a mecha Virtua Fighter in a sense.

[Gorvi]

Hell, let me pile on that even more: Zelda
I'll take more 2D Zelda please.

And I agree with Rafer, the Tony Hawk games have gotten so redundant it's pathetic.

[zekels]

Tenchu in a free roaming GTA style setting would rock on so many levels.

[EyesNoMore]

Since I work at a game store I am going to provide my answer to the initial question.

Who buys this crap? Anime-nerds and kids. Except the hunting games, they're bought by ignorate people who don't play games.

Obviously my experience is limited to the people that come in to my store, but I think I get a fairly good cross-section.

[Dag-Sabot]

Two words: Final fantasy.

[Gorvi]

Two words: Final fantasy.
Yeah...... note even close. Next!

[Mr.Green]

Halo. They appear to be so afraid of breaking the core experience that they don't manage to advance it in any significant fashion.
The whole one sequel?

[Dag-Sabot]

Yeah...... note even close. Next!What are you saying?

[Gorvi]

What are you saying?
That it's not a series that has stagnated or in need of revitalization.

EDIT : I'm not getting drawn into a FF is stale discussion, btw. If you don't care for the series that's one thing, but that's not what this thread is about (a particular series you may not care for).

[Telefrog]

I think most of the games we're talking about are games that may or may not be stuck in a rut. They're still essentially good games. You may personally not like them, but the reviews and sales say otherwise. The Gundam series of games are uniformly awful. No one gives these games a good review and yet they continue to sell regardless of the ridicule.

I would put almost any Tycoon game in this category. Prison Tycoon? Mall Tycoon? Airport Tycoon? Trailer Park Tycoon? Ugh.

[Wyrm]

Tony Hawk, big time. Skate looks like what I've been waiting for, a fresh take on the genre.
Silent Hill.
The entire "fighting game" genre.
The Matrix, I still think there could be a really interesting game set in that universe.
Castlevania 2d... getting stale, no problem with 2d gameplay mind you, I just want to see something new.

As for racing game genre, I'd still like to see something like a racing RPG, I know it's been tried before but it could give a series like Ridge Racer a boost if done well.

The Matrix is a good one because I feel the same why. It just never found its way into the hands of a capable developer. There's a fountain of potential in that universe for some extremely cool gameplay.

My list goes like dis:

Megaman - for the most part, the evolution of this series has been more of a step in the opposite direction of fun.

Castlevania - while the 2d formula is pretty much the best thing ever and I'll never get tired of buying/playing games like this, I'm sort of waiting for them to make the step from good to great. I have faith the DS or the PSP will help with that one.

Resident Evil - This is actually a positive one. I've never thought this series was stale in the least, but after playing RE4, I'll never want to play the old games without the upgraded controls. They revamped the gameplay completely, but the game still felt like a fast paced version of my favorite survival horror game. It's on the list because the innovation needs to continue into the next generation. Keep up those cool 'moments' in the game that Resident Evil is infamous for, but make them more grand. See: God of War

Unreal Tournament - They are great games if you like to KILL stuff. Sure there are some interesting game types, but it boils down to blowing shit up and looking good while doing so. Gears showed the engine can bring some really awesome and quite fluid gameplay. Change the gameplay in some fundamental ways for the better!

[drakkarim]

WWII, on the other hand, just needs to take a decade long vacation from games.

not for me, i love the stuff. can't get enough.

there's a lot of franchises that i always ignore, but there's always people to buy them, so i don't really think they need to put anything on the back burner, everyone has different tastes.

personally i don't care how you reinvent the sports/sims/movie/horrorwalkalongtheline/puzzle titles, i'll never touch them. i used to love FF games, but ever since they got into the anime crap i can't stand to touch the stuff.

[galactic empire]

Halo. They appear to be so afraid of breaking the core experience that they don't manage to advance it in any significant fashion.What? There have only been two games released in this series. Trolling anyone?

[Wyrm]

That it's not a series that has stagnated or in need of revitalization.

EDIT : I'm not getting drawn into a FF is stale discussion, btw. If you don't care for the series that's one thing, but that's not what this thread is about (a particular series you may not care for).

And I think the point of the thread was asking what people thought were series like that. So, he told you what he thought. He stated his opinion, just as you did. Who are you to tell him he can't do that?

[Spigot]

While it would be nice if they broke out from the SotN/Metroidish rut that the 2D Castlevanias have sunk into, whenever they HAVE tried to do something different (see any 3D iteration of it) it tends to either suck or be mediocre at best.

As for Armoured Core, they're good,, albeit very niche, games. Their main flaw is the fact that each game is nearly identical (and not in a good way) to the previous ones.

Of course, they're not nearly as bad offenders as the X Warriors games (Samurai & Destiny) which are the sports games of the non-sports games world. The yearly iterations of these games may as well just be roster update discs, for all the new stuff they bring to the table. At least sports games tend to introduce new gameplay mechanics and improved graphics every once in a while.

[blademonkey]

Quake 4 is/was less than stellar (on the 360 at least).
FF is an interactive movie, reminds me of the old 3DO stuff. It needs new gameplay concepts not new art content.

Overall though, i don't think i'm looking for a good sequel as I am looking for a good game that can stand on its own. Sequel are safe for the publisher and for the consumer, they dont push the envelope (unless it's a sequel that pushes the envelope).

When you "think outside the box", you need not to expand the box all the time. Mastering the current box would go a long way, as well as different perspectives (or angles) on that box.

Eventually there will be more content on a game than we will have time to explore. The game should not be rated on how long it takes to beat it, but how long you want to keep playing it.

[KNOTE]

Madden, most FPS games, most J-Rpgs, most RTS games, all need significant refreshes. We need less iteration on existing formulas and more cross-pollenation with different genres.

[evilgoodwin]

But it's Ridge Racer! Riiiiiidge Ra--*windpipe closes out of self preservation*

Also, I'm there on Shining Force as well.

Developers that make worse and worse games in a series should be forced to play every game in the series to see if they can actually get why the series was so good in the first place. And then, if they make another crap game, Bam. Fork in the eye.

Shining Force: Stop ripping off DMC, or at the very least, increase the action a bit, but not so much that it becomes a Dynasty Warriors thing.

Sonic: No humans. Don't let them talk. Sonic, Knuckles, MAYBE Tails, Metal Sonic, Robotnik, and that's it. No bunnies, bats, or whatever the hell else they threw in there. And try to tell a great story without getting too retarded. I know they're trying to gear it towards kids, but god damn, don't treat them like idiots.

Halo: Don't know if this has ever been mentioned before, but give the guy a grappling hook or something to spice up the gameplay a little. Ever play Quake 2 after someone threw in that grappling hook in the mix? Awesome. Oh, and boss fights. Can't remember if Halo ever did that, or if they pretended to have a huge, new mob at one point that was hard to kill, but then just overused it as a normal mob later in the game.

Gundam: Dear Bandai, Play Zone of the Enders. Now.

Dynasty Warriors: Sure, it's fun to take out an army with one guy, but my thumb gets tired of mashing the same button every time. However, I'm not saying ramp up the difficulty and force me to dodge all of the time or only attack a mob after a successful parry attack (I'm looking at YOU Ninja Gaiden). Maybe if they occasionally threw in some things away from the army fighting things, such as sneaking into a fortress to open the gates or fight the commander by yourself, or SOMETHING to make it feel like you're actually affecting the story besides being that guy who kills the most of those guys.

Racing Games: The Fast and the Furious was alright the first few times. The second one wasn't. The third one blew. It's alright to make games that aren't about pimping your ride and becoming king of the underground racing circuit in *generic city full of buildings and neon*. It's fun to drive during the daytime, too.

Castlevania: Personally, I'm ok with this. I DO want bigger castles, though, and everyone knows that Dracula is going to be the last fight, so stop trying to surprise us and we'll stop pretending it's a spoiler.

Mario: That's right. I'm hitting YOU, plumber. While Mario Galaxy will probably be a blast, I'm talking about the others. Bowser is Mario's nemesis. Not some magician, or whatever jackass person they just make up. New Super Mario Bros. was close, but.. Bowser Jr. can die in a fire. Seriously. Bowser already has kids. There's 7 of them. Bring them back.

...That's all I got.

[jpublic]

Castlevania:

I have to disagree on this, guys. The problem isn't the 2D. It's the fact that they can't seem to really surpass SotN. Every single DS and GBA game has been for the most part some goofy SotN-lite experience.

And seriously, the whip? Speaking of tired....

I'm not sure how well a Metroid Prime take on Castlevania would work. I would be more inclined to say something alone the lines of Mega Man Legends, IMO. Similar, but a little more focus on deliberate action rather than immediate action from the player.

[Lunar Blue]

Gran Turismo. The first one sucked and even tho' i've yet to try GT4, i'm sure it sucks too. Horrible physics and crappy AI, it's criminal this shit is considered realistic by some and the year is 2007, not 1997. Buying 700 virtual cars has never been as fun tho' :)
Silent Hill. Whereas the first one's biggest merit was it's freshness, it didn't carry on to the sequels. Lousy controls and bad, pseudo-clever plots and completely failing to bring anything new to the series. Shit, they even recycle the environments from earlier games.
Nippon-ichi "strategy" games. I have to admit i have NEVER played any of them so basicly i'm just pulling this shit out of my ass: they look exactly the same from year to next with un-fucking-believably ugly levels made of legos and generic lowres anime characters. Fuck, i'm sure Front Mission is deeper than these games and it came out in like '95.
95% of the games made by EA. Just ditch that shit.

I'm too enraged due to writing this post that i can't think of any others ;)

[Evil Avnovice]

-Mega Man X
-Mega Man Zero
-Sonic the Hedgehog

[Food Nipple]

What do you feel is growing stale about MGS? Really, the game is coming off of probably the best entry in the series (MGS3 Subsistance). No flack, I'm just curious as to why you think that.

WWII, on the other hand, just needs to take a decade long vacation from games.

I have to agree, MGS is really starting to show its age. Splinter Cell has a superior stealth system and it's painful to try to shoot around a corner in MGS after playing Gears, Vegas, or even GRAW. The camera in MGS3 (non subsistence) made the game unplayable for me, at least with the re-release the game was playable.

MGS needs a massive control overhaul, the controls are still based on the PS1 scheme in the pre-dual shock era. All the additional moves from the sequels have been tacked on without overhauling those core mechanics. I used to be able to sneak up oon a guy from behind and snap his neck, but in MGS3 I screwed that up sometimes because of the amount of pressure I pushed the button with.

MGS 4 seems like it's only adding more moves, like shooting while on your back. I'd say that MGS probably has some of the most complicated and convoluted controls I've ever seen. If I still need to push three buttons simultaneously to shoot around a corner, I'm not playing it.

[SuperMonkeyFighter2]

I gotta jump on the mega man bandwagon also. They dabbled in 3D and such, but never quite gave it an effort.

DC Comics videogames are another one ... with so many great characters, why can't they get one lousy game right?

[Gorvi]

I have to agree, MGS is really starting to show its age. Splinter Cell has a superior stealth system and it's painful to try to shoot around a corner in MGS after playing Gears, Vegas, or even GRAW. The camera in MGS3 (non subsistence) made the game unplayable for me, at least with the re-release the game was playable.

MGS needs a massive control overhaul, the controls are still based on the PS1 scheme in the pre-dual shock era. All the additional moves from the sequels have been tacked on without overhauling those core mechanics. I used to be able to sneak up oon a guy from behind and snap his neck, but in MGS3 I screwed that up sometimes because of the amount of pressure I pushed the button with.

MGS 4 seems like it's only adding more moves, like shooting while on your back. I'd say that MGS probably has some of the most complicated and convoluted controls I've ever seen. If I still need to push three buttons simultaneously to shoot around a corner, I'm not playing it.
See, I can totally agree with what you're saying. An overhaul to the controls would be a welcome change. The camera was fixed in Subsistance though, I really hope they don't go back to the old style in MGS4.

[Spigot]

Nippon-ichi "strategy" games. I have to admit i have NEVER played any of them so basicly i'm just pulling this shit out of my ass: they look exactly the same from year to next with un-fucking-believably ugly levels made of legos and generic lowres anime characters. Fuck, i'm sure Front Mission is deeper than these games and it came out in like '95.I'm with you to a certain point, but not all the way.

I personally love the art style of the Nippon Ichi games. What did them in for me ws the fact that I had picked up the first three released over here (Disgaea, Phantom Brave and La Pucelle) and when they proceeded to release at least two more of the same general style within a relatively short timeline, I said, "Enough is enough."

I'd barely scrached the surface of the first three they'd shipped over here. No way was I dropping the cash to get more games that i'd barely get into.

And I personally thought that Phantom Brave had the best controls/layout of the bunch. Doing away with the grid system was a huge step forward for turnbased strats, in my opinion, and I wish more people would get on board with that change.

[MasterKwan]

I bought "Armored Core 4" the other day without consulting with my son. That was a mistake as it's a POS. He's laughing at me now. Why did I buy it? It was an impulse purchase that I hoped would tide me over will some good PS3 games came out. I'd say 20% of my game purchases are impulse purchases and I do regret perhaps 70% of these buys.

[Gorvi]

I bought "Armored Core 4" the other day without consulting with my son. That was a mistake as it's a POS. He's laughing at me now. Why did I buy it? It was an impulse purchase that I hoped would tide me over will some good PS3 games came out. I'd say 20% of my game purchases are impulse purchases and I do regret perhaps 70% of these buys.
There is a demo out for that you know. Man, that should have been enough to turn you off from purchasing the game.

[blademonkey]

I bought "Armored Core 4" the other day without consulting with my son. That was a mistake as it's a POS. He's laughing at me now. Why did I buy it? It was an impulse purchase that I hoped would tide me over will some good PS3 games came out. I'd say 20% of my game purchases are impulse purchases and I do regret perhaps 70% of these buys.

I totally understand. once, on a whim, i purchased (full price) this game called Goblin Commander.

"hi my name is Blademonkey, and I am a shotgun buyer . . ."

[MasterKwan]

IMPULSE meaning I didn't give it any thought. I was at the store, saw it, bought it.

[Gorvi]

IMPULSE meaning I didn't give it any thought. I was at the store, saw it, bought it.
Yeah, that's normally not a good idea, sorry to hear you got stuck with a bad game. The last time I did that was with Nightmare Creatures 2. That was enough to have me make sure that never happened again.

[trip1eX]

I think it's safe to say nearly every franchise is tired and old. :)

To get around that I rotate around alot because absence makes the heart grow fonder.

[Kamalot]

To get around that I rotate around alot...
I tried that, but I just got dizzy.

[drakkarim]

hmm, i got the AC4 demo, haven't played it yet, maybe i'll have to tonight to see whether i should stay away. thanks for the warning guys.

what's so bad about the game?

[Wraith]

The SimCity series could definitely do with some kind of major shift. While the games have become more realistic, more graphically impressive, and more intricate with each installment, they also seem to be more work and less fun, sad to say. Not crap, by any means, but losing some of the pick up and play factor. I don't want it to be a total sandbox where you never run out of money, but it shouldn't have to feel like a major undertaking to get a decent town started. (And bring back hydroelectric power, whydon'tcha.)

I suppose we won't start seeing much on SC5 until Spore is out the door.

[Gorvi]

hmm, i got the AC4 demo, haven't played it yet, maybe i'll have to tonight to see whether i should stay away. thanks for the warning guys.

what's so bad about the game?
For me, it's the same thing that's been wrong with the entire series : the controls just don't feel right. Personally, I just can't get past that. I'm sure there's a decent game under there somewhere.

[drakkarim]

just saw some gameplay footage, now i remember playing the demo, and quickly deleting it, definitely seemed 'empty'.

i think i was confusing it with chromehounds, which i haven't played either, but am curious about.

[Spigot]

I love the garage side of things with the AC series. I played AC 1 & 2 on the PS2 and loved tweaking my loadouts and such on the mechs. Actually playing the game was frustrating, but I had enough fun with the tweaking aspect to let me appreciate it for that side of things.

[Kamalot]

For me, it's the same thing that's been wrong with the entire series : the controls just don't feel right. Personally, I just can't get past that. I'm sure there's a decent game under there somewhere.
Here's at least one problem with the controls I found in Armor Core 4:

My right thumb is expected to aim with the right-stick at the same time it is pressing the 'shoot' buttons. How the hell am I supposed to do that?

[Gorvi]

Here's at least one problem with the controls I found in Armor Core 4:

My right thumb is expected to aim with the right-stick at the same time it is pressing the 'shoot' buttons. How the hell am I supposed to do that?
Yeah, that's a big part of it. If they would only change the controls to be more like what we have for your more standard third person shooter (or hell, even FPS), the games would be improved greatly. I swear, the have a great concept there, if they could only get the controls/handling of the mechs down, they'd have an amazing franchise.

[lockwoodx]

I thought the adventure island series was pretty crappy

[Kamalot]

Yeah, that's a big part of it. If they would only change the controls to be more like what we have for your more standard third person shooter (or hell, even FPS), the games would be improved greatly. I swear, the have a great concept there, if they could only get the controls/handling of the mechs down, they'd have an amazing franchise.
The game feels a lot like what Food Nipple was talking about with Metal Gear Solid. The controls are antique. Someone needs to sit down with a list of actions or 'verbs' in the game, prioritize them based on how the game should be played, and then assign those verbs to controller actions. Test it, play it and balance it until it makes sense.

You have to remember that games have changed a LOT since the early PS1 days. Games like Resident Evil and Tomb Raider had their control systems reworked from the bottom up to achieve excellent results.

At some point you need to wipe the slate clean and go back to the drawing board. With Armor Core, they could keep the sweet, sweet mechs and the customization but build it around a FUN and logical control scheme, while breathing some life into the otherwise stale series.

[miah]

The Tenchu series. The first one was fun back when the PS1 was in it's prime, but now they just keep putting out the same game with slightly updated graphics and the same brain dead AI and glitches. There is so much potential there for a bad ass ninja sneak game.

And a new one comes out this summer. Tenchu Z

[miah]

Dynasty Warriors. The concept is good, but Koei puts out the same game every six months and they all sell. Not as much here as in Japan but still tons more than the series deserves right now.

And every release has problems handling the amount of objects onscreen. They need to take a clue from the N3 developers.. though N3 is more of the same there.

[miah]

Here's another contentious one: Castlevania

Yes, the GBA and DS games were good but they've barely changed at all since Symphony of the Night. And there still hasn't been a good 3D attempt to translate that world. Some sort of Devil May Cry/Metroid Prime fusion would be awesome. And while I still enjoy the classic 2D games, I can't see myself continue to buy them when almost nothing changes from game to game. Its like a random map generator.

They did that, Castlevania: Lament of Innocence

[Sandman]

I kind of feal like Madden has grown stale. It's football game after football game after football game, yearly releases....they could do something different with it.

[Kamalot]

I kind of feal like Madden has grown stale. It's football game after football game after football game, yearly releases....they could do something different with it.
They could introduce land mines. That would spice things up.

[Sandman]

They could introduce land mines. That would spice things up.

Then it would be like Blitz.

[Metal Jesus]

Pokemon

I get why people "have to collect them all", but even Gamespot admitted that the DS version is reusing graphics and 8bit sound effects from the GB version?! Same game, different handheld.

[Dag-Sabot]

I kind of feal like Madden has grown stale. It's football game after football game after football game, yearly releases....they could do something different with it.You mean like a flight sim?

[Wyrm]

Pokemon

I get why people "have to collect them all", but even Gamespot admitted that the DS version is reusing graphics and 8bit sound effects from the GB version?! Same game, different handheld.

I'll still buy and lose months of my time to it though.

[IrishWhiskey]

They did that, Castlevania: Lament of InnocenceEmphasis on the Metroid Prime part (which Lament didn't really have) as exploration and coming back to puzzles with new abilities is a much bigger part of the 2D games than the combat. Also I said they hadn't made a good 3d game yet, not that they hadn't made a 3D one

[BabyJesus]

They should move Madden into some other franchises, like who wouldn't play, Super Madden Bus challenge, where you drive around in a big GI-HUGE-IC bus and try to announce as poorly as possible during a football game. The mini games could be AWESOME, like "Stating the obvious BLITZ" or "making stupid sounds when you see a good hit"..

[tombofsoldier]

The SimCity series could definitely do with some kind of major shift. While the games have become more realistic, more graphically impressive, and more intricate with each installment, they also seem to be more work and less fun, sad to say.

I would have to agree with you 100% there. I think it's because Will Right didn't have a lot to do with 3 and 4. His games aren't supposed to be even slightly challenging, that's part of the reason they're fun, but EA has to F* that up just like everything else.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Honestly? I think Final Fantasy is having some problems with staleness - but not because of Square. Every change to the formula is heavily resisted by the fanbase. Let me correct myself - every game that does not try to be Final Fantasy 7 is heavily resisted by the fanbase. They are getting to the point where they CANNOT innovate, because they'll get thrashed too hard. Which is sad, because they seem to be trying in 12 (which sold MUCH worse than 7-10)

[Ancalagon]

As much as it pains me to say this as a huge fan, the megaman series could use a shot in the arm.

they should get rid of insta kill things, like spikes and holes.

they should reinvent Syndicate, that was loads of fun.

[Wraith]

Honestly? I think Final Fantasy is having some problems with staleness - but not because of Square. Every change to the formula is heavily resisted by the fanbase. Let me correct myself - every game that does not try to be Final Fantasy 7 is heavily resisted by the fanbase. They are getting to the point where they CANNOT innovate, because they'll get thrashed too hard. Which is sad, because they seem to be trying in 12 (which sold MUCH worse than 7-10)Are you saying it sold worse than 7-10, in the same period x-many months since launch?

I wonder how much of it is "this isn't a carbon copy of FFVII" and how much of it is "these kind of RPGs aren't as much of a novelty anymore"... Because even if sales were lower, XII still got rave reviews.

[Spigot]

Aye. I think that people who enjoy FF as a whole and don't insist every game be a rehash of FFVII quite liked FFXII. I know I did!

[TheFlyingOrc]

Are you saying it sold worse than 7-10, in the same period x-many months since launch?

I wonder how much of it is "this isn't a carbon copy of FFVII" and how much of it is "these kind of RPGs aren't as much of a novelty anymore"... Because even if sales were lower, XII still got rave reviews.
Well, I'm saying this not expecting sales to go up that much in the future. It could be wrong, but it shouldn't ever get to the sales numbers of 10.

It DID get good reviews. I like it (except they don't give you enough money). But it seems that interest in Final Fantasy has plummeted in the last 5 years.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Aye. I think that people who enjoy FF as a whole and don't insist every game be a rehash of FFVII quite liked FFXII. I know I did!
I have nothing bad to say about 12 - but I think there are a lot of folk demanding it be exactly like 7.

[Venkman]

I'll second Metal Gear. Although the gameplay has been honed, it is still the exact same core gameplay from the PS1.

how did MGS3 get fresh? They toook away radar (same as playing the hardest level on MGS1) and gave you thousands of camo outfits to manage. Ugh. I don't need "dress up" in my "tactical espionage action".

GTAIV certainly LOOKS nice, we'll see if the gameplay gets overhauled or if they add more mundane time sinks. San Andreas had "working out". What's next? Filling up your car at a gas station?

As for those who say Halo, well there has only been two. They can still get back on track.

[MrSatan]

I definitely agree that armored core could use some innovation in the next iteration. Tenchu is another one from From Software that could use some freshening up. The problem is that because of how insanely popular these types of games are, the developer knows people will buy the game whether it is good or not.

[Gorvi]

I'll go so far as to say that, barring the story being a little underwhelming, FFXII is possibly the best game in the series. It's the only game in the series that I've spent over 125 hours playing on one playthrough. And I still didn't find everything. Damn I love that game.

[Kamalot]

Pokemon

I get why people "have to collect them all", but even Gamespot admitted that the DS version is reusing graphics and 8bit sound effects from the GB version?! Same game, different handheld.
I've tried some of the spinoff Pokemon games and they all left me wanting 'just another' Pokemon game. The Pokemon games change enough of the rules and introduce enough new gameplay techniques that they remain fresh. The depth in Pokemon games is already incredible, and the addition of online play is more addicting than ever.

[Kamalot]

Honestly? I think Final Fantasy is having some problems with staleness - but not because of Square.
I don't mind the main Final Fantasy series. I really appreciate how each one introduces a new world. I also don't mind the side-stories, like Crystal Chronicles and Tactics. What I find extraordinarily distasteful is how Square, after the merge with Enix, has gone into Milking Overdrive (TM). It used to be that every new Final Fantasy was just that, NEW. Now they introduce a whole bunch of spin-offs, sequels and Final Fantasy VII Snowboarding for cell phones.

Things just seem to be getting worse though, with Final Fantasy XIII appearing to set the stage for the biggest dairy farm in all of Internetland.

[Krispy]

Pokemon. How many have they made now (not counting spinoffs)? Lets see, somewhere around 14 through 6 generations, and how many new features are there? I don't think there has been a major innovation since Gold and Silver and all they seem to be doing is (sometimes) changing the scenery and adding new Pokemon. Don't even get me started on how unoriginal the new Pokemon are, they are going so far as to essentially remake the old 150 with new names and slightly different deisgns.

Six generations and they haven't even made a fully 3D adventure game. Wouldn't that be a logical step?

[BlueNu]

A bit off-topic, but XII was weak because the content within the game didn't mesh well with the gambit system. Don't misunderstand, I think the gambit system is amazing.

I think the lack of any real difficulty, a major problem that's plagued Square since their SNES products, just didn't fit at all with such a powerful toolset. They basically designed a game that was possible to play manually, in real-time, without any of the automation gambits provide, and as such, gambits trivialized the experience. Even on Active mode, I found myself absolutely obliterating most bosses, including the final one, with minimal manual commands.

It'd be interesting to see another game using the system with a high enough difficulty level to make complex macros required for success.

[Gorvi]

A bit off-topic, but XII was weak because the content within the game didn't mesh well with the gambit system. Don't misunderstand, I think the gambit system is amazing.

I think the lack of any real difficulty, a major problem that's plagued Square since their SNES products, just didn't fit at all with such a powerful toolset. They basically designed a game that was possible to play manually, in real-time, without any of the automation gambits provide, and as such, gambits trivialized the experience. Even on Active mode, I found myself absolutely obliterating most bosses, including the final one, with minimal manual commands.

It'd be interesting to see another game using the system with a high enough difficulty level to make complex macros required for success.
Did you do the hunts? I'd be curious to see how you fared against Gilgamesh or the Hell Wyrm.

[MrSatan]

HALO. If they don't change some things, I won't play this game. From what I have seen from the videos it looks like they are keeping the same crappy-ass havok physics from the first halo, just so the fanboys won't freak out. I know they won't change anything though, it will end up being just like Halo 2. Devs are too scared to change things in fear of losing their core audience (Look at counter-strike, people still play the ridiculous 1.6) It is sad really.

[BlueNu]

Did you do the hunts? I'd be curious to see how you fared against Gilgamesh or the Hell Wyrm.

Sure did, I completed everything. There were definitely some cases that broke the trend and required picking up the controller, but I was speaking in general terms. :)

The system has the potential to be the keystone of an amazing game; I don't think FFXII was it.

[MrSatan]

A bit off-topic, but XII was weak because the content within the game didn't mesh well with the gambit system. Don't misunderstand, I think the gambit system is amazing.

I think the lack of any real difficulty, a major problem that's plagued Square since their SNES products, just didn't fit at all with such a powerful toolset. They basically designed a game that was possible to play manually, in real-time, without any of the automation gambits provide, and as such, gambits trivialized the experience. Even on Active mode, I found myself absolutely obliterating most bosses, including the final one, with minimal manual commands.

It'd be interesting to see another game using the system with a high enough difficulty level to make complex macros required for success.

Finaly Fantasy has always been about creating your own challenges. I didn't think that many of the main bosses were very hard, but man some of those damn hunts kicked my ass. Also I think the gambit system worked very well. Sure it may automate a lot of the game and make the player feel more like a spectator then a player, but it really took the endless grind out of the game and made it much more enjoyable for me. Also you have to really intelligently setup your gambits for them to work correctly. Also if you still have problem with them, then why not play the game with them turned off. It's not as if anyone was forcing you to play with them on, they included them in the game so people didn't feel so overwhelmed by the FF grind.

If anything, FF XII lacked a strong narrative. I didn't really connect with the characters on a personal level like I do in most FF games. The game needed a stronger core plot and more interesting characters, then it would have been very memorable.

To me I still believe the best FF fighting engine is from FF-X2. You can hate on that game cause it is girly, but god-damn that dress sphere system is awesome.

[Gorvi]

Sure did, I completed everything. There were definitely some cases that broke the trend and required picking up the controller, but I was speaking in general terms. :)

The system has the potential to be the keystone of an amazing game; I don't think FFXII was it.
Man, if you took out that Hell Wyrm, you've got a lot more patience than I do.

[Spigot]

If anything, FF XII lacked a strong narrative. I didn't really connect with the characters on a personal level like I do in most FF games. The game needed a stronger core plot and more interesting characters, then it would have been very memorable.

To me I still believe the best FF fighting engine is from FF-X2. You can hate on that game cause it is girly, but god-damn that dress sphere system is awesome.
I agree on both counts, sort of. The biggest problem with me and FFXII is the fact that if I ever put the game down for a bit, I'm completely flummoxed as to who is doing what to whom where and why they're doing it. I liked the characters well enough and the storyline wasn't bad, but it just didn't have the memorable set-pieces later in the story to really grab me like most of the FF games do. That said, I still love the game to death... it's just the first FF in a long time that I haven't sat down and just plowed my way through in the space of a month.

The fact that all of the characters ended up with nearly indentical skill sets was a bit of a let-down. Sure, you can have your characters who go for the bows and magic first before rounding out the license tree, but when you're nearing the latter half of the game, they are all basically interchangable as far as skills and weapon loadouts go.

And whoever said that FFXII wasn't challenging must be playing a different game than I did. It is the first FF that has actually given me a challenge since the original. Most of the time, I'm used to just sauntering through a Final Fantasy, maybe having a squeeker battle where I ALMOST die, usually at around the 60 hour mark and on the third form of the end boss. I think that ties back into my previous point of not finishing FFXII. It was the first FF game that I can recall (heck, one of the first JRPG's aside from Nocturne) that I found myself facing the Game Over screen after only an hour of play. Repeatedly.

Now, the difficulty on the minor monster battles does go down somewhat, but honestly, don't blame the gambit system. All it did was save me the hassle of hitting X a thousand times like I usually do when playing against the random encounter mobs.

Oh, and whoever decided to make the party exclusively human aside from Fran needs a kick in the nuts. You have Ivalice, a land where there are no less than 5 distinct races inhabiting almost every major city and I have a party consisting almost exclusively of humans? Come on. That said, the humans in your party are all very well portrayed and amazingly voiced, but still...

Oh, and as for X-2, I did like the Dress Sphere system (although it was basically a very pretty Job System with a few enhancements) but thought the game itself was unnecessary as I thought X had a fantastic ending on its own without the need for a followup.

[divinechaos]

I think the reason why so many people are letting this new Pokemon game slip is because they haven't made a true Pokemon game in years. If the next Pokemon game doesn't up the graphics/sound then I won't be buying it.

[Spigot]

I think the reason why so many people are letting this new Pokemon game slip is because they haven't made a true Pokemon game in years. If the next Pokemon game doesn't up the graphics/sound then I won't be buying it.Sadly, I bought the new Pokemon game. That said, it has been YEARS since I played the originals and even there I never put a lot of time into it. It looks like it takes good advantage of the online capabilities of the DS (which is nice for an old fart like me who doesn't want dirty looks when I ask kids to trade Pokemons). Plus I'm just in a cute game mode of late.

But I agree. After seeing the paces that the DS can be put through with the FFIII remake and Chocobo Tales (two of the nicest looking DS games, thank you very much) they had better up the ante, graphically, for the next Pokemon game.

Of course, I haven't even fired up my copy of Pearl, so I'll reserve any harsh judgement for later.

[AzSinistar]

Series that need a good turnaround...

Master of Orion
Might and Magic
Heroes of Might and Magic
SimCity (I think this was already mentioned)
Ultima

[Jaybo]

Halo? Come back to me after a few more sequels before you say they need a redo.

[jpublic]

I've tried some of the spinoff Pokemon games and they all left me wanting 'just another' Pokemon game. The Pokemon games change enough of the rules and introduce enough new gameplay techniques that they remain fresh. The depth in Pokemon games is already incredible, and the addition of online play is more addicting than ever.

I wasn't that big on the core Pokemon games. They end up pissing me off, since I'm just obsessive-compulsive enough to want to, pardon the phrase, 'Catch 'em all', yet antisocial enough that the idea of having to trade for the Pokemon not on my version of the game makes me recoil in disgust.

However, the *world* is incredible, and the spinoffs are great. The GBC version of the Pokemon Card Game is one of my favorite games. The N64 and GC spinoffs were a blast.

Pokemon Core may need a bit of tweaking, but the part of Nintendo that keeps excreting these wonderous spin offs should be carefully tended like a goose that lays golden eggs.

[KingGorilla]

Series that need a good turnaround...
Ultima

Turnaround? When was there a new Ultima game? UO and its million Expansions(which the fans love by the way) have been going strong for 10 years.

[Wolvie]

Madden. No seriously, how many times can they sell the same crap with a few tweaks each year? I want to be amazed and shocked by a new game, and I'm sorry, but the ol roster update and a few new moves and features just don't cut it for me anymore.

[KingGorilla]

Madden. No seriously, how many times can they sell the same crap with a few tweaks each year? I want to be amazed and shocked by a new game, and I'm sorry, but the ol roster update and a few new moves and features just don't cut it for me anymore.
I think we are going on 17 straight years of the same game for Madden.

[Wolvie]

I think we are going on 17 straight years of the same game for Madden.

Sad but true, same game, new coat of paint. Rinse, repeat, PROFIT!

[Wasson_]

People keep saying Armored Core "could" use "some" innovation. when speaking as a person who has played all the games in the series from it's start waaaay back (remember when they put it's picture on the back of the PS1 box?) when it was a really cool and interesting game for console. They all had major game play issues. So much customization and attention to detail stats-wise during the process of creating your AC, but then when it came down to the combat, it was just derivative hop around and shoot the things you lock on to...in a narrow GIANT corridor...that a giant robot shouldn't be in.

sigh...

[Spigot]

I wasn't that big on the core Pokemon games. They end up pissing me off, since I'm just obsessive-compulsive enough to want to, pardon the phrase, 'Catch 'em all', yet antisocial enough that the idea of having to trade for the Pokemon not on my version of the game makes me recoil in disgust.

However, the *world* is incredible, and the spinoffs are great. The GBC version of the Pokemon Card Game is one of my favorite games. The N64 and GC spinoffs were a blast.

Pokemon Core may need a bit of tweaking, but the part of Nintendo that keeps excreting these wonderous spin offs should be carefully tended like a goose that lays golden eggs.I think I was in the same boat as you. I like the Pokeman 'world', such as it is, but the hassles involved in collecting all of the monsters was too much. That said, I even enjoyed Snap! The fact that these newest Pokemon games have the Wi-Fi suite of features to let me actually trade and battle other people without having to leave the safe, safe confines of my house, well, that was the selling point for me. I can finally see what all the hoopla is about AND not miss out on half of the gaming experience due to my not being a 12 year old boy. When you're in your late 20's/early 30's, it's kind of hard and borderline criminal to find willing trading partners for your Pokemon!

[BlueNu]

Also I think the gambit system worked very well. Sure it may automate a lot of the game and make the player feel more like a spectator then a player, but it really took the endless grind out of the game and made it much more enjoyable for me. Also you have to really intelligently setup your gambits for them to work correctly. Also if you still have problem with them, then why not play the game with them turned off. It's not as if anyone was forcing you to play with them on, they included them in the game so people didn't feel so overwhelmed by the FF grind.

Did you read anything past the first sentence of my post?

I agree with your points. I wish the combat was more involved and actually required good use of the gambit system, rather than good use of the gambit system trivializing the vast majority of the game! :)

And whoever said that FFXII wasn't challenging must be playing a different game than I did. It is the first FF that has actually given me a challenge since the original. Most of the time, I'm used to just sauntering through a Final Fantasy, maybe having a squeeker battle where I ALMOST die, usually at around the 60 hour mark and on the third form of the end boss. I think that ties back into my previous point of not finishing FFXII. It was the first FF game that I can recall (heck, one of the first JRPG's aside from Nocturne) that I found myself facing the Game Over screen after only an hour of play. Repeatedly.

What I generally found was that assigning each party member two of the buffs coupled with each character being set up to throw different levels of heals at different HP marks (ex. one main healer whenever someone is under ~60% and the other two having an emergency heal fire at ~20-30%) really eliminated any chance of death. Having a mana drain gambit was also clutch.

By keeping all the buffs up and maintaining a solid healing configuration, I found my characters were pretty much immortal. My attacks were somewhat varied, but by the end game, I was pretty much focused around strong physical attacks rather than doing anything fancy on the offensive side.

Regarding SMTIII: Nocturne... :) I love that game. Hard RPGs ftfw.