Xbox 360 Guts Revealed - Llamma Unsure About 65nm Core - UPDATED

[dolbex]

The Llamma (http://www.llamma.com/xbox360/news/inside_the_xbox_360_elite.htm) was fortunate enough to come across a Xbox 360 Elite at a local Wal-Mart that broke street date. Once he got it home he did what any Llamma would do - pulled it apart.

Two really interesting portions came from his investigating:

Next, I wasted no time in removing the CPU and GPU heat sinks as I was dying to know if they had implemented the anticipated 65nm CPU core. Both the CPU and GPU both sport different revision information on the chips but its hard to say whether or not 65nm has been implemented. One of the more interesting observations that seems to point to lower power consumption implying a possible 65nm core is the fact that there are some capacitors and transistors that have been removed on this revision of board.
One a side note, we all had a good belly laugh here at the shop when we saw Microsoft's most creative measures to minimize the dreaded Xbox 360 3 flashing red lights "ring of death" error caused by poor BGA connections of the CPU and GPU. It seems that that the good ol' a dab will do ya methodology applies here.

There are also some great pictures as well.

Found via various sources at NewsPail.com (http://www.newspail.com)

[CaptStu]

I think this was already posted somewhere. In a thread. Don't remember though. Good info though and definitely warrants its own thread.

[Klade]

The quote for the second comment is too short, it doesn't say why its funny.

At any rate interesting read.

[agentgray]

It's 65 nanometers. How can he possibly see it?

:D

[Telefrog]

The best thing about this article is the (partial) explanation of why we see the 3RL error so much in existing 360's. Nice to see that it's what I suspected it was.

[TrackZero]

I seriously doubt it's 65nm, the processor would be considerably smaller over the last version.

[CaptStu]

What I don't understand is why wouldn't MS use the 65nm chip (if it is in there) as a bulletpoint to buy the system? They didn't. I even think they refuted it.

[bapenguin]

What I don't understand is why wouldn't MS use the 65nm chip (if it is in there) as a bulletpoint to buy the system? They didn't. I even think they refuted it.

Because most customers don't even know what a nano-meter is, let alone what it has to do with processor and video games.

The response I got from PR is basically they were told the components are the same as the other 360s. But it may have changed.

[kokyunage]

What I don't understand is why wouldn't MS use the 65nm chip (if it is in there) as a bulletpoint to buy the system? They didn't. I even think they refuted it.

Because console makers have never really advertised this type of stuff during the lifetime of a console. Why should they? So Joe Average consumer gets pissed of that his 1st generation xbox360 doesn't have the newer cpu?

[Inverarity]

The idea that minor amounts of flexing in the board due to heat eventually loosens the BGA connections seems plausible enough to me. In another career, I used some reasonably large BGA packages in a design. They were finicky little bastards- really useful in that they gave you so many more interconnects for the same package size, but they were nasty to rework. Granted, that was some time ago, but I never really got a good feeling about them. (Anyone who works on the manufacturing side rather than the design side, feel free to refute...like I said, it's been a while.)

[laggerific]

Because most customers don't even know what a nano-meter is, let alone what it has to do with processor and video games.

The response I got from PR is basically they were told the components are the same as the other 360s. But it may have changed.


I highly doubt they would tell you one way and change it. It is silly, though, that they wouldn't take this opportunity to introduce the new fab, except that it too is probably unstable and able to take out a city block vs. currently just taking down your console.

[KingGorilla]

So the solution for the red rings...was essentialy Duct tape?

[grognard66]

Major Nelson had a MS hardware guy on his podcast a few episodes ago and they stated emphatically that the Elite will not use this new chip. They still hope to integrate it into all future SKU's sometime later this summer.

[Zacharai]

Because most customers don't even know what a nano-meter is, let alone what it has to do with processor and video games.
That doesn't matter. If they'd switched to the 65 nm process, they'd definitely point it out. Customers would just assume it's a good thing, if they're trumpeting it. Shit, they talk all about pixel pipelines in video cards, and I don't have a fucking clue what those are. I bet most people who don't have an HDTV have no idea what 1080i means, or whether it's better or worse than 1080p. And HDTVs are, theoretically, marketed to those who don't already have one.

Specifically about the 65nm process, MS has stated that they didn't change their manufacturing techniques between versions of 360's. Why is this rumor still going around when it's been explicitly denied by the producer?

[Xerxes]

What I don't understand is why wouldn't MS use the 65nm chip (if it is in there) as a bulletpoint to buy the system? They didn't. I even think they refuted it.

Glad I'm not the only one who thought that was a bulletpoint reason.

[Trazzlo the Magnificant]

Because most customers don't even know what a nano-meter is, let alone what it has to do with processor and video games.
They are unedjumacated. I personally run 3 nanometers a day. And back!

[TheEpicOfTyler]

The black controller lacks a certain aesthetic niceness that the white controller has.

I think it might be the gray of the analog stick/dpad and the bottom piece of the controller. They seem to clash.

[Xerxes]

The black controller lacks a certain aesthetic niceness that the white controller has.

I think it might be the gray of the analog stick/dpad and the bottom piece of the controller. They seem to clash.

Well use the white controller with that sleek ass system. I like the black more.

[Uniqueusername]

Seems to be pretty much the same thing, but shifted round a little. The glue seems like a pragmatic solution.

Although if they were going to fix things, they should have started with the wonky Dpad. The one big flaw in an otherwise great controller...

Another good change would be to add little rubber feet to the 360. Someone on another board found that adding stick-on rubber feet to the 360 reduces vibration (and noise) while helping cooling. (Airflow under the console)

I suppose some people might be disappointed that it's not radically different, but I can see advantages in small, stepwise refinements of a console. Still not buying an elite, though. Want a price cut.

[Watership]

I think there is some misunderstanding about why the 360s fail and how it's related to the 65 nanometer process and or HEAT. They are not related.

The chipsets are fine, the design is fine. The reason the 360 are failing is due to a old manufacturing error. The new refinements resolve that. The 65 nanometer process will reduce the cost of the CPU, and MIGHT reduce heat. That's it.

[NeoSuplex]

I can't for the life of me figure out my they wouldn't use the 65nm chips if they're ready. If they hadn't mad any revisions at all, it might make sence... but to make MoBo and Chip revisions and STILL not use the 65nm, which is cheaper to make? Either they haven't got it in good enough working condition or, they really only revised the board and are trying to flush out the older chips.
That or retardation. You can never rule out a learning disability.

[abso]

65nm or not, I'm still waiting on a price cut before I pick one up.

[cp#]

I seriously doubt it's 65nm, the processor would be considerably smaller over the last version.


Uhh exactly. The processors are clearly the same size in the comparison picture and the GPU still has that second memory die.

Microsoft would make an announcement, and not hide the transition to 65nm.


I can't for the life of me figure out my they wouldn't use the 65nm chips if they're ready. If they hadn't mad any revisions at all, it might make sence... but to make MoBo and Chip revisions and STILL not use the 65nm, which is cheaper to make? Either they haven't got it in good enough working condition or, they really only revised the board and are trying to flush out the older chips.
That or retardation. You can never rule out a learning disability.


I would have to say the 65nm parts are not ready yet. I would expect them by years end though. IBM makes the chips and I don't know much about their technology but I do know that AMD still uses 90nm (they are moving to 65nm now), Intel uses mostly 65nm and are already moving to 45nm (by years end).

[Tricky Thumb]

Apparently there were still a few rugs to peek under, as the Llama guys have gone and updated their previous article.

The interesting part to most is the area under where the CPU connects we see lots of changes around here but its mostly just smaller components in a tighter space. The Ball Grid Array size has of course not changed so although we see a denser arrangement of smaller components we should not take this to mean that it is necessarily the 65nm core.


Source page with pics (http://www.llamma.com/xbox360/news/inside_the_xbox_360_elite_part_2.htm)

Being a tech-junkie I do enjoy these little articles on pulling consoles apart.

[[Jez]]

will the white 360's now made use the mobo revisions/65mn cpu/epoxy because I dont have a HD-TV and a black case isnt enough to make me want a elite

[abso]

65 nm isn't supposed to be in there until late summer. Until then, hold your purchase. My guess is that will be around the time when there is an announced price cut...

[Pluvious]

Someone needs to explain why we are coveting 65nm again.. Was it just heat related?.. Is it really that important?

[Grimmjow]

wasn't there something similar in the news a few days ago?

[KingGorilla]

Someone needs to explain why we are coveting 65nm again.. Was it just heat related?.. Is it really that important?
Less electric power, less heat. A smaller CPU clocked the same will be more effecient and less costly to make, and to the consumer. Roughly every 18 months this should happen. Sadly, the smaller CPU is not translating to consumer savings.

Cough, the way it does with PC processors.

[fitbabits]

Merged both threads, added 'updated' to headline. Coughed, spat, sneezed, farted.

[wyeast]

Um. ew? *slowly backs away* :D

[KoenigMKII]

The benefits of a 65 nm CPU/GPU are

The chips will all bin at a higher frequency and the process will possibly use a slightly lower DC voltage. The chip runs cooler at the old frequency.

If the frequency is artificially pegged low to the old 360 one, it meens much higher yields of working CPU's at that frequency. In the console world its not politically acceptable to customers to make a 360 MkII which is 30% faster than 360 MkI - that is the PC way of doing things.

The chip dies are all smaller, so many more of them fit on the same silicon wafer. That increases productivity of the plants making the little beasties.

The cooler chips can mean smaller or slower fans can cope with the reduced heat. So quieter 360's are certain, unless MS tries to adopt a Rumsfeldtian strategy.

Summary:

1/Quieter

2/Cheaper (Dramatically so - a certain price cut for the 360)

3/Cooler

Possibly:
4/ a smaller 360 case [I would not recomend it - power density goes up, back to heat again]