EA confirms blacklisting of BF2 servers

[Ventura_DK]

Today EA has confirmed that servers have been removed from the BF2 server list, because changing the time limit and unlocking weapons is against the EULA that server operations have to accept upon installing the software. Check out the details here (http://bf1942.boomtown.net/en_uk/articles/art.view.php?id=8467).

Complete BS IMHO. Do they want to have people hooked on the demo or not?

[Smithersnz]

Yes, they should have locked them down more securely. It's incredibly easy to remove the time limit.
In their defense though, they did release a demo they didn't have any obligation to, and if they want to didcate terms, on their server platform, they can. Even with a time limit, I still think it's a great game.

[RichardTowler]

it seems companies are having to protect the EULA more and more, not sure if you guys have followed the nascar racing 2003 situation, with the company that bought the code (red sox burn).

[bobbler]

I think some companies take their EULA too seriously... If it's making it more fun for some and not ruining the experience for others then what's the big deal?

Defining gameplay in the EULA is ridiculous and needs to stop (unless it is an MMO, but that's usually just to stop cheating and keep fair play).

"You can only play our way!"

Some of the best things that can happen to a game company are the emergent gameplay methods users come up with (as long as they aren't destructive to gameplay for others). If you make a game and people find additional ways to have fun with it... More power to them! Emergent solutions is one of the key things developers look out for, hope for, and plan for (in some ways -- emergent solutions can lead to cheating but also things that developers never thought of that are real fun).

GTA is a perfect example of a game where that takes place -- I'd hazard a guess and say a lot of people never finish the game, but, have more fun with it than most other games because of all the fun you can have on your own terms.

[Hizawky]

Fucking 10 minutes in BF2 was a joke. Shame on you EA, especially since the devs of the god damn game play on the hacked servers anyways.

[AgtFox]

As I put it in my site's forum:

On the reverse side of the argument the ability to take the time limit off and allow all weapons may stop some people from picking up the full game and just sitting content with the demo. Granted, you don't get the Chinese troops and you are only stuck with 1 map, but some people could get their fix just from that.

I'm just throwing this argument out there, I don't necessarily agree with it.
Sadly, that is probably EA's thinking on this.

[BloodAngel]

I love a lot of EA's games, but I don't understand why they choose to play Asshole Corporate entity time and again. If they would just lighten up, and start treating their costumers and Employees worth a damn they would be the most beloved game Company in the world.

If they want to Blacklist someone, why not start with the idiots that spam warez urls in game?

[GunnyMo]

Just one more reason not to buy EA games (even though it's a demo). Just like PA said, pretty soon it'll be a white box with "GAME" on the front of it.

[Paranoia]

Since its EA's demo, and I didn't pay for it, I guess I can't do anything about it. Nothing is free anyway.

[Furious Wang]

They probably have every right to do this, but they should realize it won't win them any support. Don't they have any PR guys who analyze decisions like this? Is the negative press worth enforcing a stupid time limit rule?

[ÜberJumper]

Thankfully, I have the IP of a kit-unlocked, no time limit server with plenty O tickets.

I played from 8pm till 11:30 pm on it, and only managed to pry myself away when I remembered that I had to be up at 5am for a doctors appt with my wife.

[MosBen]

I'm always surprised that there are people that don't understand the difference between people being upset about a company doing something that they can't do/illegal, and something that just makes them seem like total dicks.

[Nesta]

Hate EA, love this game. Playing on a hacked server and it's too much goddamned fun. I'm going to be picking up the game second hand. I love to play it, but I'd rather not give my money directly to EA.

[Tia]

I think some companies take their EULA too seriously... If it's making it more fun for some and not ruining the experience for others then what's the big deal?

Defining gameplay in the EULA is ridiculous and needs to stop (unless it is an MMO, but that's usually just to stop cheating and keep fair play).

"You can only play our way!"



Well, they did not stop you from playing your way. All they did was stop you from being on their server listing. Which is not any different than kicking you from an MMO for exploiting. Besides, one can argue that since BF2 is a pretty much online only game, there is a need for eula and TOS. Think about it, the servers that EA shows on that list, directly effect them. So why not be able to remove people from that list if they did not follow the EULA, or if they are abusing the system?

(Not that I don't love the kit unlock/no time limit. But, well, I don't think EA were acting beyond their rights or being unreasonable. It is only a week bann)

Shrug, then they also might just be evil.

Hate EA, love this game. Playing on a hacked server and it's too much goddamned fun. I'm going to be picking up the game second hand. I love to play it, but I'd rather not give my money directly to EA.

Carefull. If they check serial number... you can never know if the used game you picked up doesn't already have it's serial number black listed. I wouldn't by online games used.

Also consider that when you buy the game you give money to Dice who worked hard to create that game. Not just to EA.

[doyama]

There's a certain irony in that if you think of it, BF2 is basically like version 2.0 of a HACK onto BF1.

[Klade]

Well, they did not stop you from playing your way. All they did was stop you from being on their server listing. Which is not any different than kicking you from an MMO for exploiting. Besides, one can argue that since BF2 is a pretty much online only game, there is a need for eula and TOS. Think about it, the servers that EA shows on that list, directly effect them. So why not be able to remove people from that list if they did not follow the EULA, or if they are abusing the system?

(Not that I don't love the kit unlock/no time limit. But, well, I don't think EA were acting beyond their rights or being unreasonable. It is only a week bann)

Shrug, then they also might just be evil.



Carefull. If they check serial number... you can never know if the used game you picked up doesn't already have it's serial number black listed. I wouldn't by online games used.

Also consider that when you buy the game you give money to Dice who worked hard to create that game. Not just to EA.

The MMO analogy is not a good one. In an MMO someone exploiting effects more then just that person, it effects others in a negative way. But having a server that has no time limit or what not only makes the game more fun for those that want such things. It also increases the chance that those same people will buy the game since they will be having more fun with the demo.

By removing servers they are pissing people off and probably hurting their profits by some small fraction of a percent.

Yes they have the right to do this but its fucking stupid so it bothers people. No real mystery here.

[bobbler]

Well, they did not stop you from playing your way. All they did was stop you from being on their server listing. Which is not any different than kicking you from an MMO for exploiting. Besides, one can argue that since BF2 is a pretty much online only game, there is a need for eula and TOS. Think about it, the servers that EA shows on that list, directly effect them. So why not be able to remove people from that list if they did not follow the EULA, or if they are abusing the system?
...

Oh, I was talking generalized there.

You make a good point though, regardless of if I like it...

I just don't like when companies try to define how you are supposed to have your fun with the game. This just happened to be the example at hand.

It doesn't really affect me that they removed it from their list, thats fine and dandy... I just don't like that they are using their EULA to screw with peoples fun when it isn't harming other people's fun -- If they try to shut down the server that is not cool, but, if they are just removing them from the list that is fine (people can still play on them).

[Tia]

In an MMO someone exploiting effects more then just that person, it effects others in a negative way.

Not true. Many exploits can make a lot of people happy, like a way to PL, or to get free XP. Which arguably does not effect anyone in a bad way, except for the game developers who want you to play longer. What about many MMO that have a rule against putting numbers in your name and being "angel11123432"? This doesn't hurt anyone does it? Besides it all depends how you look at it. In a way they could be saying "See, we deal with cheaters, so our game will be clean." All depends how you look at it.

Anyway as I said, they are not closing any servers, just not publishing them. Which is infact a lot less severe than they do on MMO, so maybe the analogy is not correct. I think that poeple get worked up over nothing.

I also do agree with you bobbler. I don't like when companies tell me how to enjoy my game. Though I do realize it is their right. This is why I don't play MMO's much anymore. I got tired of devs telling me what I am suppose to do or not do. (Like forcing me to group). I guess it is our choice not to play the game. But Battlefield 2 is just too damn awsome.

[Weaverboy]

I'm going to go against the grain here by saying that I think the conduct of EA in this one instance is completely acceptable. Not that I'm a great fan of the company (mind you, saying that you hate EA is pretty fashionable these days), but if EA release a piece of software with the EULA saying that you must use it as is, without modification, then you have to abide by that if you install and use it. If you break that EULA, then there they have justifiable recourse. I fail to see the problem, be it ethical, moral or otherwise. If you don't agree with the EULA of the software, then don't install it. By all means I understand if you say that you'd rather see no time limit on the demo – debate, discuss and complain – but that's another matter altogether. I just don't see how breaking the agreement and then complaining about being caught doing it is going to help, or indeed is the right thing to do.

I just don't like when companies try to define how you are supposed to have your fun with the game

I empathise, but I think this is an extreme view. Could you not say the same thing because they restricted the map list and available weapons? This is a demo after all, which I think implies restrictions.

[Beelzebud]

This is where you can really see the difference between a megalith like EA Games, and a smaller studio that just cares about making games. EA only care about money. That is the bottom line. If a game turns out fun, well that was just an accident.

Epic didn't say a word when people were unlocking things from the UT demo(s).

The bottom line is this: If they didn't want people having access to this stuff, they shouldn't have packaged it with the demo.

This vaugely reminds me of the people getting sued for modding Beach Vollyball for xbox...

[Tia]

Beelzebud, how is that make sense what you just said? How is them removing servers to the list show they only care about money? What's the connection? please enlighten me.

EA only care about money. That is the bottom line. If a game turns out fun, well that was just an accident.

Also makes no sense you realize that. If a game won't be fun, people won't buy it, they won't get money. So they care a lot if the game would be fun or not, they just have a different approach about it.

But don't let me stop you all from hating Electronic Arts and their evil ways. "Damn with the man, save the empire"

of course if Valve or Blizzard would have done it. People would have been all orgasmic about how great they are.

By the way, modding Xbox games is illegal. Since you must have an illegal hardware to do so. Basically modding any game without expressed permissions from the IP holder is illegal. But hey we are gamers right? what do we care about people Intelectual Property and laws. Should I say "Damn the man" again?

[Klade]

Not true. Many exploits can make a lot of people happy, like a way to PL, or to get free XP. Which arguably does not effect anyone in a bad way, except for the game developers who want you to play longer. What about many MMO that have a rule against putting numbers in your name and being "angel11123432"? This doesn't hurt anyone does it? Besides it all depends how you look at it. In a way they could be saying "See, we deal with cheaters, so our game will be clean." All depends how you look at it.

Anyway as I said, they are not closing any servers, just not publishing them. Which is infact a lot less severe than they do on MMO, so maybe the analogy is not correct. I think that poeple get worked up over nothing...

Actually both Power Leveling through an exploit and getting Free XP through an exploit hurt people in an MMO since it further distablizes the econonomy and in general places more people into a level range where they otherwise were not and thus makes it harder for people who got there naturally to find mobs to kill etc etc. As for numbers in a name.. Well that just has to do with roleplay atmosphere and last I heard didn't have anything to do with exploits but maybe there is one out there I don't know of.

And I'll speculate that one reason EA didn't close the servers is because they can't. They have no magic button on their desk that fries a persons comp when they press it. If they want to close a server they need to get a court order and a few months of litigation. And by then the game will come out and it will all be a mute point so theres no purpose in doing that.

And your right that just about every mod ever made is illegal. And they have pretty much made the game industry what it is today. End of Story.

[Rifter]

So, since EA likes to shut down listing the fun servers, does anyone have any IPs to servers that are fun, and usually stocked with people? The game just starts getting interesting, when the freaking time limit goes off. I have only played in one game, online, that was decided in the first 12 minutes.

[Tia]

Actually both Power Leveling through an exploit and getting Free XP through an exploit hurt people in an MMO since it further distablizes the econonomy and in general places more people into a level range where they otherwise were not and thus makes it harder for people who got there naturally to find mobs to kill etc etc.

This is actually not proven. People like to throw that around. But you can't really prove that one way or another. You also proved my point, it is the same "numbers in a name.. Well that just has to do with roleplay atmosphere." Yes it has nothing to do with exploits. That was exactly my point. It is a desicion that was made by the game developers because of one reason or another. Some hate it, some love it. EA desicion is to not allow poeple that mess around with their config files to be on their server lists. And by the way, as I said... all they do is bann you for a week from the list. Oh and yes, they can't shut you down, but it might also be that they don't really want to.

Admit it, we are gamers, we like to bitch and moan, and this is about the only thing we ever do. We are worse than a bunch of old ladies. Look at almost every thread in almost any gaming forum. We always find something to bitch about.

Not every mod ever made was illegal actually. And yes it did a lot of good to the industry. But we also need to understand that it is the right of a company to not want their game modded. And we don't need to get huffy about it.

meh this has been going for long enough.

[Goronmon]

I'm going to go against the grain here by saying that I think the conduct of EA in this one instance is completely acceptable. Not that I'm a great fan of the company (mind you, saying that you hate EA is pretty fashionable these days), but if EA release a piece of software with the EULA saying that you must use it as is, without modification, then you have to abide by that if you install and use it. If you break that EULA, then there they have justifiable recourse. I fail to see the problem, be it ethical, moral or otherwise. If you don't agree with the EULA of the software, then don't install it. By all means I understand if you say that you'd rather see no time limit on the demo – debate, discuss and complain – but that's another matter altogether. I just don't see how breaking the agreement and then complaining about being caught doing it is going to help, or indeed is the right thing to do.


I empathise, but I think this is an extreme view. Could you not say the same thing because they restricted the map list and available weapons? This is a demo after all, which I think implies restrictions.
Hey, someone on this thread is thinking this through and not just playing the "I hate EA" anti-fanboy role ;)

Seriously, when it comes down to it, we are all playing a free demo that EA was nice enough to release before the game is available for purchase. And removing the servers from the official list? Big deal. You can still play on them as much as you want, but since they are breaking the EULA it makes sense that EA just blocks access to the listing service.

I swear, I wish more gamers would just worry about having fun with games then coming up with reasons to get pissed off and feel "held down by the man." It gets silly sometimes.

[Klade]

This is actually not proven. People like to throw that around. But you can't really prove that one way or another. You also proved my point, it is the same "numbers in a name.. Well that just has to do with roleplay atmosphere." Yes it has nothing to do with exploits. That was exactly my point. It is a desicion that was made by the game developers because of one reason or another. Some hate it, some love it. EA desicion is to not allow poeple that mess around with their config files to be on their server lists. And by the way, as I said... all they do is bann you for a week from the list. Oh and yes, they can't shut you down, but it might also be that they don't really want to.

Admit it, we are gamers, we like to bitch and moan, and this is about the only thing we ever do. We are worse than a bunch of old ladies. Look at almost every thread in almost any gaming forum. We always find something to bitch about.

Not every mod ever made was illegal actually. And yes it did a lot of good to the industry. But we also need to understand that it is the right of a company to not want their game modded. And we don't need to get huffy about it.

meh this has been going for long enough.


It has gone on long enough but I've played a lot of MMOs so I can't really let it go yet. Its very very easy to show or 'prove' that power leveling through an exploit/free xp hurts others. Every zone or area hold just so many mobs of a certain level range or type. If character reaches that level range artificially through an exploit then thats one more person in that area that others have to compete with. Some games this doesn't matter others it matters a whole lot. If someone gets very high in level early in the game it can have massive consequences to the economy since they could flood the market with high level items that are easy for them to get. This happens all the time and fucks everything up. So yes it very much matters and therefore is not at all comparable to EA excluding a few servers from a list, when said servers are isolated and effect no one else. And the reason why you don't see a lot of people with numbers in there names in most MMOs is that its flat out not possible to type them in during character creation. And thus has no real relevance to this discussion.

[Bone]

It pisses me off. Yes, it's their demo, and they have the right to choose who is on the server listing. But the text of their message "obviously the hacking community is alive and well" or whatever... I mean, it doesn't take ub3r-l33t hack skills to change a fucking CONFIG FILE in your own server root.

If you want a good, competitive server, check out bf2.frontlineformation.com tonight. We're finally back on the server listing and we run a tight ship.

[Tia]

Hey, someone on this thread is thinking this through and not just playing the "I hate EA" anti-fanboy role ;)

Seriously, when it comes down to it, we are all playing a free demo that EA was nice enough to release before the game is available for purchase. And removing the servers from the official list? Big deal. You can still play on them as much as you want, but since they are breaking the EULA it makes sense that EA just blocks access to the listing service.

I swear, I wish more gamers would just worry about having fun with games then coming up with reasons to get pissed off and feel "held down by the man." It gets silly sometimes.

hey I did too :(

Where is my recommendation ;)

[Goronmon]

hey I did too :(

Where is my recommendation ;)
Oh, I definately agree with you, I just focused on Weaverboy's post because that was pretty much the same post I was going to make, haha :D

[Tia]

Yay \o/

:D

[Morratut]

Who cares. As long as the full version doesn't have these type of restrictions :D

EA is being silly with the time limit on rounds. I can see their point of view regarding the people unlocking other things though.<shrugs> :rolleyes:

[Paranoia]

People take things for granted. How sad!

[Royal Fool]

Oh dear! Now I can't use the shitty in-game GameSpy server browser (That freezes the game, locks up and halts when you scroll it) to find the demo servers I want to play on! Boohoo EA, you have ruined my week!

Or I can just do connect to IP and go straight to the best demo servers I know of... I recommend checking out the Shacknews servers, they're not always full by any means but there's always some people playing to make for a good game round.

[ÜberJumper]

What I find is funny is that they included all the art assets in the demo for the locked weapons (minus sounds?), and didn't hard code the server executable to run a map for only 12 minutes.

Either someone at EA dropped the ball, or they were planning on saying "BF2 demo, now with unlocked weapons and no time limits!" in a few months.

[Mrbunchypants]

Did i miss something. This is a demo. DEMO. DEMO.
I sure as hell didn't pay for it. so why am i not allowed to break it.
They gave it away FREE.
OH well there loss.

[Bone]

Oh dear! Now I can't use the shitty in-game GameSpy server browser (That freezes the game, locks up and halts when you scroll it) to find the demo servers I want to play on! Boohoo EA, you have ruined my week!

Or I can just do connect to IP and go straight to the best demo servers I know of... I recommend checking out the Shacknews servers, they're not always full by any means but there's always some people playing to make for a good game round.

As an admin of one of the blacklisted servers, we unfortunately do depend on some traffic to come from Gamespy's in-game browser, since All Seeing Eye has yet to update for BF2 and the demo is too new for us to fill the server on word-of-mouth.

Really, that's not as big an issue as the clear contempt EA is showing its customers by calling server admins "hackers" simply for configuring their server. And then having the gall to use that as an excuse to only allow EA servers to be ranked. Did you know they charge 8 dollars per player slot for their rented servers? 64 player server- $512 a month. We pay half that to run a much faster and more robust server. Not to mention that EA servers are notorious smacktard breeding grounds- our server (and most communities like ours who take pride in their server) is policed to keep the focus on good teamplay. So who exactly is going to use EA's ranking system if the servers are too expensive and they are full of morons?

But, I guess "Electronic Arts" actually translates to "fuck your customers" in some language anyway. I hope it all blows up their faces.

[Goronmon]

I didn't realize that only the EA servers would be ranked. Now that is kind of stupid, IMO.

I don't want to be forced to play on EA servers in order to take advantage of the ranking system.

[Bone]

The activities of the obviously active hacking community reinforce our decision to not release the Ranked server publicly with the final product. Our desire is to be able to offer an exploit-free place to play where players can legitimately gain ranks, and collect awards and unlocks. The only way we can offer such a service and protect the Ranked server content is by hosting the ranked servers directly and through trusted partners. The Unranked server tools will be released to the community so that they may host their own BF2 servers, mods, etc.

Is that not just a giant, passive-aggressive FUCK YOU?

[Chandler]

that time limit SUCKS ASS. isnt a demo supposed to show us what the game is like? The game isnt supposed to be a 12 min round where at the end you feel like you havent' even won or lost.

anyways, I dont think the reason is because they want more money, I mean, UT2k4 has like 10 demo servers...

[fndarkone]

As an admin of one of the blacklisted servers, we unfortunately do depend on some traffic to come from Gamespy's in-game browser, since All Seeing Eye has yet to update for BF2 and the demo is too new for us to fill the server on word-of-mouth.
hey, if you want, PM me the ip address I can bring some traffic your way. My friends and i actually care about playing and we do the whole teamwork and communication thing.

i had a real crappy time last night on a server that had no teamwork and i spent the whole time by myself trying to cap flags. so im definately looking for a server that has good people and good games on it.

[Oppe]

Why do they care about timelimits anyway? Are they worried prople will say "Why buy the game when I can play this one map forever?" This seems like a knee-jerk reaction, especially when the game isn't even available yet. Why enforce a 12 minute timelimit when there's only one map? It's a demo, let em play.

I haven't tried it myself, but the article leads me to believe that these "Hackers" just changed in game settings while setting up their servers... If that's the case, then EA needs to pull its thumb from its ass.

[Bone]

Oppe: it's a simple text file in the server directory, with plain english similar to "Timelimit=1" "UnlockedWeapons=0". To me, that's a server setting.

[Heretic Machine]

Why don't you guys just... not buy the game? It's not like it's that great to begin with... Putting up with a bad company that screws you over doesn't seem like a big motivator.

[MosBen]

Sure, it's in the EULA, and breaking the EULA is "wrong", but that doesn't mean it isn't a real dick move to just cram tons of things into the EULA that don't need to be there. I realize that people are altering, although in an extremely minor way, the software, but again, what if they decided to put other things (like "no spawn camping") in the EULA? Sure, you agree to it in order to play the game, but at that point, and I think here too, their regulations aren't protecting their IP or sales, it's just restricting people that *want* to play their game. It's not just simple business, they're just being dicks.

[Phades]

Whatever, I don't care too much as I'm still enjoying the game. I'll buy the full version when it comes out next week, can't wait. I would love to know the IP of some of these servers though that have good teamwork going on. So far, I haven't seen much of that and the commanders have all sucked with the exception of one. I'd like to see more use of the squad/commander features and more coordination. I think that has a lot of potential to make this game great.

[MasterEvilAce]

Why the fuck do they include all the models and textures in demos? If they removed that crap, not only would people not be able to find/unlock it, but the demo would be a hell of a lot smaller, too.

[Orphiuchus]

This is a very simple issue, its not about rights or sales numbers or anything like that.

Its very simple.

EA has its head up its ass, always has, always will. Anyone who still likes EA is either a moron or hasn't been watching games for very long. EA ruins games and alienates customers, and they do it because they have their collective heads so far up their collective asses that they can still taste breakfast at lunchtime.

Remember Ultima 9 anyone? Yea. Fuck EA. I have not purchased a game released by EA since they ruined Ultima, and I'm not resuming for this.

[ÜberJumper]

MasterEvilAce:

As per my last post, either they're dumdums, or they intended to leave those models in there so that in a couple of months they could re-ignight interest in BF2 by going "Now unlocked with more models!".

I wager they're just being lazy dumdums that hurried the release of the demo and demo server without doing any hard-coding of limitations.

[Tia]

MasterEvilAce:

As per my last post, either they're dumdums, or they intended to leave those models in there so that in a couple of months they could re-ignight interest in BF2 by going "Now unlocked with more models!".

I wager they're just being lazy dumdums that hurried the release of the demo and demo server without doing any hard-coding of limitations.

might just also be that the models and textures are embedded into the game so well that seperating it would have taken too long and be to expensive. So instead of saying "fuck it, lets not have a demo" they left it there and added to the EULA that you can't use it.

[Orphiuchus]

They didn't even bother to put any security between users and unlocking the files. None. Nada.

[ÜberJumper]

Tia:

If that's the case, then the chinese would be in the demo as well wouldn't they? :-)

[Tia]

I donno how it is built. Might be able to seperate an entire army, but not the different kits of an army. There is a difference between not having the chinese, and not having certain guns.

I don't know how the game is built. Sometimes it is just nopt worth it to take certain parts out and it is easier to disable them. I can't tell you wich parts.

But hey if you dig around enough, who knows :-P

[Kieron Gillen]

Yea. Fuck EA. I have not purchased a game released by EA since they ruined Ultima, and I'm not resuming for this.

And EA look at their sales figures, see that the games that vaguely cater to a hardcore gamer aren't selling due to petty "YOU KILLED THE WOMAN I LOVED" whining and the ones which are catering to a less precious one are, and divert even more money over there.

KG

[Orphiuchus]

And EA look at their sales figures, see that the games that vaguely cater to a hardcore gamer aren't selling due to petty "YOU KILLED THE WOMAN I LOVED" whining and the ones which are catering to a less precious one are, and divert even more money over there.

KG


And your a idiot. Every sale they dont make that they probably "should" have made is one that hurts them. And they know it, they just cant get their heads out of their asses enough to care.

[Kieron Gillen]

And somehow, they remain the richest publisher on earth and you get increasingly few games made for you.

I'd never argue they're not evil. I'm just a bigger picture kinda guy.

KG

[woodentaco]

Every sale they dont make that they probably "should" have made is one that hurts them.

...and it hurts you just as much. They see that the quality games don't sell and so they divert money to Harry Potter and Powerpuff games, since those games still sell to the uninformed consumers. In the end they don't lose that much money, and we lose our games.