Monday Afternoon Question: Loading Times

[if76]

Since it's not a particular busy day in the world of gaming news I'd like to pose the following question:With all 3 newly-announced consoles using 512MB system RAM (8x that of the original xbox) plus more RAM for the Graphics Processor, how do you think loading times will be affected by this major increase in space to fill? Would you be comfortable with games taking longer to load in the next generation than in the current one?Do some research before you attack me with what you think is an obvious answer. :)

[bapenguin]

I'm guessing RAM isn't going to be so much of a factor as the media drive being a bottleneck. I'm thinking we won't really see too much of a decrease in loading times.

[Kamalot]

I hope SOMETHING is done about loading times. They are my single bigest complaint about games.

[Varsity]

Caching technologies are starting to come in (Source and BF2 are the two I'm aware of) which allow the engine to load resources for only the immediate/visible map area, then stream the rest of the content in as you move about. There's UE3 too, which streams between maps but not I think within them. It's entirely possible that these new techs will be made use of and better still, because hardware is fixed on consoles nobody need ever get the stuttering that can accompany them on the PC.

[EvilBob46]

Some modern current generation console games work really well with streaming technology and little loading times, but with next gen games having a lot of high res textures and stuff like that I don't think loading times are going to be any better and might actually get worse because of the "slow" disc (DVD) drives.

[darkwarrior]

This is why HDs are essential. You can pre-cache tonnes of things at the start to remove any and all loading times for the rest of the game/level/world/mode/whatever. The most obvious example of this being useful is GTA. You can pre-load all 3 cities for SA potentially so that even on a console you could get the infinite draw distance since CDs are much slower access then most HD's.

Also, as shown with most peoples PS2s and GTA:SA, the constant streaming broke most drives.

[Deadend]

I think loading will be here to stay, at least for this generation.

PC games still take a bit to load a map in.

I also will forgive loading in some games, as games that are clearly divided into levels can have load times, but I would hope they would at least try to cover the loads (Advent Rising does this well).

[Kamalot]

I would hope they would at least try to cover the loads (Advent Rising does this well).

This can be done well. I've seen some games that actually give me something to DO during the load times. I'm all for that, just don't take me out of the game experience and leave me looking at a stupid loading screen.

[GrinR]

I'm still annoyed that the Xbox doesn't have an option to cache the whole disc to the HD. I don't expect things to be any different. Yay copy protection and fear of the "profit-stealing" pirate.

[Racknahm]

I don't mind loading so long as the game doesn't load frequently and take long periods of time to load. If I had a choice I'd go with no loading times at all.

[taxial]

What we may be given by some developers is one big load time going into the front end ( so all the models, movies, common textures and common sounds get loaded into RAM). Then from the main menu no more load time ( as everything else can be streamed and scratched ). meaning the only waiting times would be for rooms to fill up in online matches ( next gen systems won't give you more friends. )

[emperordahc]

Halo 1 and 2 were great; a long load time at the start of a level as it caches it to the HD, and you never see it again until you've beaten it.

[OSX]

Looking at history from all the way back in the NES days....they'll get longer.

*puts up flameshield*

Just learning from the past.

[darkwarrior]

512MB of ram isn't enough for big worlds like GTAs (I'd think not anyway, it comes on a dvd afterall).

And piracy as an excuse? Thats not a reason to not cache to the HD. One you could customise the HD for console use only, two, it should really be wiped clean when powered down anyway and three caching to HD reduces drive wear and tear which cuts down on Sony sending out new PS2s every time the drive fails.

[if76]

Well the harddrive on the x360 spins at 5400 rpm and x360 dvds are 12x (15MB/s). I'm not sure if the harddrive is gonna be all that much
faster

[KNOTE]

loading times will be longer. there is only so much data you can spool off a DVD per second. Good developers will be able to minimize loading's affect on gameplay through streaming.

[taxial]

32 MB's of ram is big enough for GTA on the PS2 with little loading (in game) and some disk seeking (which for the most part on any system is something you want to avoid as even with proper disk layout can add to you load times/stream). Everything that isn't necessary to be on screen isn't in memory and when know to be needed it is streamed. This is why the draw distance is so horrible and is a non issue on the Xbox. The extra RAM can hold the extra models and textures in memory so they can be drawn (and it’s only an extra 32 MB). Now if you add some HDR, crank the shaders, Bumped/Normaled models around 4 - 6 thousand polys, and jump all your important textures to 512*512, (maybe 1024 if its on screen all the time) you would be filling your 512 MB and be at the same point GTA is at now, picking a draw distance, setting a L.O.D. distance, and streaming the rest. But what you see on screen infront of you drops your jaw to China, and it was all loaded with the front end. After the architecture is unlock by the big boys and they figure out each system (like polyphonic knows the PS2, like Team Ninja knows the Xbox) we'll have some interesting scenarios that I think can really reduced load times (go stick DOA 3 in an Xbox sometime, its a launch title (2001), and it looks better than almost every Xbox game out there today, and it loads in a second.

[Kylie_Scotts]

...caching to HD reduces drive wear and tear which cuts down on Sony sending out new PS2s every time the drive fails.

But then they can't sell you a new PlayStation and claim their installed base is 2-3x what it really is!

Crafty! ;-)

[netcraazzy]

Well generally the way it works on a PC is, the more RAM you have, the more information can be cached ahead of time and the less time is spent loading levels and maps. So, from that perspective, the extra RAM should have a positive impact on loading times. I think Microsoft has the opportunity to do something that would set them apart from PS3 with the hard drive because you could do like an initial install of a game the first time you play it creating a cache on the hard drive of the most commonly accessed data. You would still need the disc to play the game but once you did the initial install you wouldn't have to access it as much.

[Mrbunchypants]

the more things change the more they stay the same.
Look at BF2. that has some nasty load times. just like the first one.
I'm thinking you will see more of the same in the way of load times. some games will be better then others.

[erasmus]

I also will forgive loading in some games, as games that are clearly divided into levels can have load times, but I would hope they would at least try to cover the loads (Advent Rising does this well).

For those of us who haven't played Advent Rising, how does it cover the load, just out of curiosity?

My current favorite load for a game is Ridge Racer on PSP, you get a fun little minigame. Half the time I'll notice that it's been loaded already for a few minutes, and I'm still playing the loading game. Although I've heard this approach is patented overall.

[Kamalot]

My current favorite load for a game is Ridge Racer on PSP, you get a fun little minigame.
That's embarrassing, especially for a handheld system. It screams, "We aren't fast enough to give you the game you want, so play this 25 year-old minigame while we get your track ready."

I doubt many purchased $300 piece of hardware to play old ports as a substitute for the real experience.

[automaton]

People talk about how a hard disk on a console is a way to eliminate or reduce load time. Well, I don't see too many Xbox games that make use of it. Why should we expect to see more 360 games that use it?

Plus, when MS intruduced the hard drive it wasn't touted as a way to reduce load times. It was supposed to introduce new functionality into games. Blinx is the only game I can think of that used the hard disk in this way.

[Oppe]

My only problem with loading times in games is that lots of the longest loads are for cutscenes. When you're playing through the first time that's okay, you (hopefully) want to see it all, but when you're trying to get through Devil May Cry 3 for the third time the game spends 90 seconds loading a cinematic and you're tapping start to skip it so you can wait for it to finish loading the next gameplay area.... It gets a little annoying.

You'd think developers could put an option to disable videos and their loadtimes completely... Or skip the video while it's still loading... Think how much time you'd save playing Metal Gear Solid 3 if you didn't have to wait for the videos to load. Developers put secret stuff and higher difficulties in their games because they want you to play through them more than once, so why don't they do this?

And on this same subject, I never want to play another game with unskippable cutscenes right before the hardest bosses in the game (Final Fantasy X, I'm looking in your direction).

[Liquidize105]

All I'm gonna say is that even BF2's menus have load time, which drove me insane.

Uninstalled.

[Dracula-X]

That's embarrassing, especially for a handheld system. It screams, "We aren't fast enough to give you the game you want, so play this 25 year-old minigame while we get your track ready."

I doubt many purchased $300 piece of hardware to play old ports as a substitute for the real experience.Uh

This can be done well. I've seen some games that actually give me something to DO during the load times. I'm all for that, just don't take me out of the game experience and leave me looking at a stupid loading screen.Way to think that through, Kamaltoe. An old nostalgic game is perfect for keeping one busy during the load duration - it's not embarrassing (what is embarrassing: moron fanboys looking for any opportunity or excuse to gripe about the competition), it's smart, takes up negligible resources, and gives one "something to do".

Load times never seem to bother me, I must be very patient.

[Kamalot]

My only problem with loading times in games is that lots of the longest loads are for cutscenes.
That is outrageous. Why would you have to WAIT for a video to play? If it is a pre-rendered cutscene, you don't need to load a level full of geometry or textures, just open the movie file and start playing.

Why on earth are there load times for pre-rendered cutscenes?

[Chandler]

Metal gear Solid 3 had zero load times except for starting the game. Get real here, the videos and prerendered cutscenes started after AT MOST 2 seconds.

[Kamalot]

Load times never seem to bother me, I must be very patient.
Riiight.

An old game shoveled in place of a loading screen still takes one out of the game experience. Hide those loading screens INSIDE the game you are already playing, not behind a 25 year old piece of code.

Shoot, even my daughter's Ty the Tasmanian Tiger 2 game has better loading areas than most games. They let you run around, in game, collecting goodies while the next area loads. It is seamless and you never stop playing.

1080 Avalanche has a nifty little music selection screen to allow you pick the music for the track. Loading the track takes less than 5 seconds, but it is done in the background so players never even notice.

Some of the Rouge Squadron games utilize an in-game cinema of your ship taking off to cover the load time. It only takes a mater of seconds and feels toally natural. Select a ship, take off, fly the mission. As opposed to, select a ship, stare at a loading screen,. fly mission.

[netcraazzy]

People talk about how a hard disk on a console is a way to eliminate or reduce load time. Well, I don't see too many Xbox games that make use of it. Why should we expect to see more 360 games that use it?

Plus, when MS intruduced the hard drive it wasn't touted as a way to reduce load times. It was supposed to introduce new functionality into games. Blinx is the only game I can think of that used the hard disk in this way.

That's what's kind of ironic about the Xbox. One of the most obvious uses for the hard drive is completely overlooked. I have a feeling the fear of making it easy for people to copy games is a major reason why it was never done on the Xbox. What I'm hoping is that Microsoft will realize the benefit of caching game data on the hard drive and motivate developers to do it.


As for adding new functionality some games did and some didn't. Games like MechAssult were some of the first to provide additional maps, units and game modes through downloadable content that was stored on the hard drive. Other games like Tiger Woods 2004 are totally retarded and didn't even allow you to store more than 4 characters despite the fact that you have a huge (compared to memory cards) hard drive to store all the data on. This brings up another reason why Sony is pissing me off by not supplying a hard drive in the base PS3 unit. Lazy game developers will write their games to the lowest standard, in Tiger Woods Case the PS2, and then not take advantage of the extra features of other consoles.

[Varsity]

That is outrageous. Why would you have to WAIT for a video to play? If it is a pre-rendered cutscene, you don't need to load a level full of geometry or textures, just open the movie file and start playing.

Why on earth are there load times for pre-rendered cutscenes?
Who says the long loads are for pre-rendered ones?

[Kamalot]

Who says the long loads are for pre-rendered ones?
Maybe I mis-read 'video' to mean pre-rendered 'video' but I don't typically consider 'video' to be rendered using the in-game engine.

This brings up the concept of waiting for in-game cinematics to load, which should be skippable, no?

[tai.mei.shu]

if a game can load in 10 min, and never load again for the rest of my playing time, i would be happy. the reason i dont like quick load times, is that they most often have to load again later on in the game, and anger me, for i want to continue my gaming.

[Metal Jesus]

Have you played RR on the PSP!? The point was that the load times aren't that long at all...but that there is an OPTIONAL game to play if you want. It's not a big deal.

Persoanlly I turned off the mini-game in the options...but it's cool that they added it. They didn't have to.

[Fonz]

From my experience, especially after playing battlefield 2 this weekend, i feel i have to get another stick of 512, maybe even 1GB of ram. Menus took a bit to load, game level was even more notorious, I was running at highest settings, but considering my system I wouldnt of expected such a preformance. Games are getting redicolous in caching all the game data. As for consoles, I hope nothing like a n64 expansion pack comes out.

BTW if your wondering the system i had: A64 3700+ 1gb 3200, bfg6800oc, im not trying to brag about my system, im just trying to put into scope what bf2 was demanding.

[kathode]

The bottom line is that drives are getting marginally faster, while data in games is increasing exponentially. More shit to load equals more waiting. Developers just have to be smart about how and when to load things, but load times are a fact of life. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[erasmus]

BTW if your wondering the system i had: A64 3700+ 1gb 3200, bfg6800oc, im not trying to brag about my system, im just trying to put into scope what bf2 was demanding.

Maybe you shouldn't have every single visual bell and whistle turned up at 1600x1200 resolution? There's no way that system shouldn't be able to display the game perfectly well without you having to upgrade more RAM.

[KNOTE]

From my experience, especially after playing battlefield 2 this weekend, i feel i have to get another stick of 512, maybe even 1GB of ram. Menus took a bit to load, game level was even more notorious

I have 3 gigs of ram in the computer i played the BF2 demo on and all the menus take forever to load, it's not your computer. It's just a very demanding game.

[Deadend]

Advent Rising covered level loads with pre-rendered cutscenes, you could skip the video, once the level is loaded.

BF2 is demanding... but it's in a BAD way, having to take time to load from menus to ingame is horrible! If I hit esc and have a delay before I see my damn menu, there is a problem. I don't care for their fancy videos and menus that run like ass.

Menus should have no load times, Menus should have a intutive layout, and menus should, again have no load times.

[Kamalot]

I like the menus used in Half-Life 2. They are simple, clean and effective, so much so that you don't even know it.

[SteveRage]

I dont really think it is a hardware issue, just lazy programming. We, as consumers have learned to except load screens, therefore, game-makers will continue to do the least they can to remove them. It is rare when you get a developer who cares enough about his game to put the extra effort into making it a seamless unit.

[AversionFX]

In all honesty, I think the improvement of graphics power and memory will not affect the load times. Developers are just going to make games capable of using that power to the most. So, I think loadtimes will be similar to what we're seeing now.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

That's what's kind of ironic about the Xbox. One of the most obvious uses for the hard drive is completely overlooked. I have a feeling the fear of making it easy for people to copy games is a major reason why it was never done on the Xbox. What I'm hoping is that Microsoft will realize the benefit of caching game data on the hard drive and motivate developers to do it.

I'm pretty sure developers do cache game data on the hard drive -- from what I understand there's a scratch area that can't be written to by the consumer and is set aside specifically for this kind of thing. But I don't know how big that area is and developers apparently aren't allowed to use anything above and beyond the already allotted scratch area (except for save games and downloadable content).

[*Legion*]

People talk about how a hard disk on a console is a way to eliminate or reduce load time. Well, I don't see too many Xbox games that make use of it..

Obviously you're not paying attention, or just have no clue what you're looking for.

[SmellDumpster]

Here's a question: Out of all the top title Gamecube games that you can think of (or google anyhow), how many of them have noticeable loading screens? I'm having troubles thinking of any. There's a standard for you.

I dont really think it is a hardware issue, just lazy programming. We, as consumers have learned to except load screens, therefore, game-makers will continue to do the least they can to remove them. It is rare when you get a developer who cares enough about his game to put the extra effort into making it a seamless unit.

I'm in the industry and I can say that for the most part that's not true. Developers usually try to make the best product that they can. If a game hasn't had its load times reduced as much as possible, it's probably due to mismanagement.

I think it's valid to say that developers are aware that gamers are forgiving about loading screens if they know their level content is good, but I think it's ignorant to say that developers don't care or that load times are a product of laziness.

Food for thought: While the end user only has to sit through the loading screens for the duration of playing the game, the developers have to sit through loading screens all day every day over a 2-3 year development cycle. You'd better bet people internal make it a priority to get those loading times down. There are ways internally to cheat around loading screens and times for testing purposes, but not enough to not make it a priority.

Another trend: From what I've seen first hand and also heard, often the loading times don't really get fully optomized until the very end of the project. If a project is under budget or mismanaged, this is a time where other things get prioritized such as content and core game mechanics.

Without having read more than a dozen of the other posts, I don't know if anyone has said anything about streaming, but a well streamed game can take care of a lot of loading problems. Unfortunately streaming is something that needs to be engineered into an engine from the very start but that some developers don't think about until the very end. It'll be interesting to see how streaming works out for Epic's new Unreal Engine 3 as so many developers are going to be using it.

I prophesize that, especially later in the life of a console (such as where we're at for the PS2 and XBox now), load times are still going be there no matter what the advancement is in hardware as developers will always do their best to push the hardware to its limits.

So, even if load screens are here to stay, I'd like to make the call out to make *interesting* loading screens. How awesome are Psychonauts load screens? Metal Arms is another one that comes to mind.. that little robot slowly plodding along.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Midway(?) has a patent on mini-games and interactivity during loading screens. That still blows my mind. If you want to hate someone for un-interesting loading screens, hate the patent-whore.

Smell Dumpster

[mister_slim]

I'm pretty sure developers do cache game data on the hard drive -- from what I understand there's a scratch area that can't be written to by the consumer and is set aside specifically for this kind of thing. But I don't know how big that area is and developers apparently aren't allowed to use anything above and beyond the already allotted scratch area (except for save games and downloadable content).
I'm pretty sure Halo 1 dumps around half a gig of data on the hard drive. I imagine other data gets swapped in if a game hasn't been played for a while.

I really wanted to play the Jade Empire vertical shooter they were planning to use during some loading screens.

[Rafer]

Yeah I wish programmers would put getting rid of loading times higher up on their to do lists, hopefully Unreal Engine 3 will make this easier. When I played Ultima IX years ago you could travel everywhere and into dungeons without loading screens, I thought that would mark the end of that but games still have them. The loading in Half-Life 2 was horrible no matter how much ram you had.

I really wanted to play the Jade Empire vertical shooter they were planning to use during some loading screens.

Yeah I hate that there's a patent on mini-games during loading screens. Gameplay patents suck.

[SteveRage]

Here's a question: Out of all the top title Gamecube games that you can think of (or google anyhow), how many of them have noticeable loading screens? I'm having troubles thinking of any. There's a standard for you.



I'm in the industry and I can say that for the most part that's not true. Developers usually try to make the best product that they can. If a game hasn't had its load times reduced as much as possible, it's probably due to mismanagement.


Smell Dumpster

that's nice to say, but I am not the only person to play a game that is unplayable out of the box due to bugs and such. I am not the first player to buy a game only to find it is half done. i am not the first consumer to purchase a game that, if it were a car, would blow up on the highway. There are some developers that truly care for what they do (nintendo games come to mind). And there are many that care about getting our $50 and that's it (cat-woman spring to mind). If developers tried to make the best game they could, we wouldn't have release day patches. These things would be tested and it's obvious many of them aren't. I stand by what I said, I believe it's a programming issue, not a hardware one; and it's getting worse as the industry grows.

[Banacek]

I like the menus used in Half-Life 2. They are simple, clean and effective, so much so that you don't even know it.

Agreed. They were simple, yet classy (you know what I mean :) )

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Midway(?) has a patent on mini-games and interactivity during loading screens. That still blows my mind. If you want to hate someone for un-interesting loading screens, hate the patent-whore.

I don't see how that's enforceable, given that there's at least one example of prior art (Mastertronic made several C64 games with a little Space Invaders clone you could play while waiting for the main game to load from the tape).