Blue Ray and HD-DVD Friends No More

[if76]

Gamerfeed (http://www.gamerfeed.com) reports that negotiations between Sony and Toshiba are over and that there will not be a unified High Definition DVD format (http://sony.gamerfeed.com/gf/pr/8851/).

Both companies realized the potential harm in a "Betamax vs. VHS" style of format war and sought to reach some concurrent standard. However, with hope of compromise lost, Sony and Toshiba are now trumping up their separate blue-laser using formats as the best.
Sounds like bad news for everyone who isn't Microsoft and Nintendo :(

[MrTA]

Exactly how will this effect us consumers anyway? I have not read much about this before, but what I understand this kind of formats wount come around until next year at best, maybe as late as 2007? Since new formats usually always have problems in the start, cost to much etc etc.

And how is a format war good for microsoft and nintendo? Is it not so that everyone gains on general standards?

[Varsity]

As far as consoles go it doesn't matter what happens to the formats.

[DeadPixel]

Honestly, did anyone really think huge beast companies such as Sony and Toshiba would be willing to merge competition? They are in it for the money, they both spent countless resources developing these technologies.

As someone mentioned before, same as DVD+R and DVD-R, drives that support both will come out at some point so all you have to do is select the cheapest, most realiable media. I use DVD+R disks for burning all of my file backups and DVD-R to burn DVD movies because DVD-R seems to work in most older DVD players, where DVR+R doesnt.

[Goronmon]

This could mean that either format isn't fully embraced for some time. So you have some movies released on Blu-Ray and some released on HD-DVD, meaning it could potentially lead to the need for two players if the movies you want are spread between formats.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

Apparently, the upcoming release of the PlayStation 3 forced Sony to push for the Blu-Ray.

So the PS3 won't have to switch formats and it'll still be out on time (maybe). Great news! The bad news: Blu-Ray now faces the very real risk of failing as a movie format. I don't know if the Blu-Ray group can recoup their investment if Blu-Ray doesn't succeed as a movie format. Same with HD-DVD, for that matter. This is a terrible move.

[crackeriah]

This is one of the stupidest business moves I've ever seen. Current generation DVD is good enough and popular enough that I think BOTH HD-DVD formats will be hard-up for many years. Though I suppose that since Blu-Ray is the more "future-proof" and high capacity it will most likely win in the end.

[Leaving Hope]

The format war over the next generation of media will effect consumers in a major negative way. Because there may not be a unification of standards, it could lead to:

- retailers being forced to sell both types of media, resulting in less shelf space and exposure
- higher costs for consumers and developers
- titles being available in only one format
- slow adoption of both formats, including players and media, due to a splintered user base

Obviously, both sides have a major stake in trying to win this war. The victor would possibly end up with a format that is used world wide for the next decade, leading to enormous royalties from other companies using their technology. The HD-DVD faction insists that their technology is easier and cheaper to implement; however, their format will hold less data than Blue-Ray. Blue-Ray, on the other hand, insists that their format holds more data, and that space will be necessary for high definition video in the near future.

Sony, leader of the Blue-Ray faction, is notorious for these format disagreements, unfortunately. Just look at Betamax, minidiscs, memory sticks, or UMD. Instead of relying on conventional, widespread technology, they tend to build their devices with their own storage formats. If I recall, they were also major advocates of DVD+R, instead of DVD-R.

MrTA, you asked about how this will effect Microsoft, Nintendo, and the other companies. Yes, everyone gains on a standard. But in Microsoft's and Nintendo's case, they're trying to decide what sort of drive to put in their next generation console. The options are DVD, HD-DVD, Blue-Ray, or some sort of proprietary format. Microsoft will probably opt to stick with DVD, since it's a very popular format, cheap, its media holds a reasonable amount of space, and it can be used to play today's movies; they will almost certainly not go with Blue-Ray, since that would be supporting their competitor, Sony. Nintendo is in the same boat with Revolution. However, Nintendo, as the did with the GameCube, will probably go with a proprietary format.

I believe that more storage (Blue-Ray over HD-DVD) is necessary, however I don't believe it's a good business plan to force a massive, many billion dollar restructure of the industry (HD-DVD over Blue-Ray). So, it's a toss up for me. But, In the end, I'm tired of Sony's arrogance; they have commonly gone with odd formats that never caught on, and it's led to the consumers losing out. This format war has been going on for atleast a year, and it's not going to end any time soon. If I had to guess, I'd say both companies will go their own way, and we'll be forced to develop hybrid players that can read both formats (Like DVD-+RW).

[Meatgortex]

This is one of the stupidest business moves I've ever seen. Current generation DVD is good enough and popular enough that I think BOTH HD-DVD formats will be hard-up for many years. Though I suppose that since Blu-Ray is the more "future-proof" and high capacity it will most likely win in the end.

Sony's Betamax was a higher quality format in many ways as well, but VHS was cheaper and thus more media outlets and retailers wanted the cheaper solution. Beta also though had less capacity when recording in extended play.

HD-DVD is cheaper which is a powerful motivator in the marketplace. However this time Sony's format is higher capacity so the field is a bit more even.

In the end the porn industry will push one of the two standards, just as it did with VHS. Technology seems to be pushed by either porn or games, and storage format doesn't mean a lot for games so look to porn to drive the format of choice.

[ElectricMonk]

i'm betting that by the time hd formats start gaining acceptance there will be players that are compatible with both

blu ray movies will just be more expensive and maybe higher quality.

[bobbler]

If you look at the companies backing each format it's not hard to see who has a better chance of winning.

This isn't really comparable to formats like mini disc, and betamax. Those didn't have consortiums. The reason consortiums came into existance was because of the betamax/vhs debacle. Sony and JVC had their betamax and VHS, respectively, and JVC won. JVC is with Sony in the BR consortium this time around. The success of BR doesn't solely depend on Sony just like the success of HD-DVD doesn't fully depend on Toshiba. All companies in the consortium are involved with it's success -- that is why getting more companies on your side is better.

In addition, if Blu-ray wins or has a clear advantage then Microsoft has no reason not to support it in their X2 (if they are planning on allowing for an upgradable drive later or whatever they were trying to hint at). Microsoft and Sony are friends in a lot more markets than they are rivals in. In addition to that, BR consortium is not just Sony -- Microsoft would be sluffing off half of the electronics/computer industry if they didn't give their full support. Sony on board or not, Microsoft is not going to just cross out BR because Sony and MS are rivals in the console market.

Some history:

DVD started in the same way, except the debate ended a lot better. Toshiba/Warner (SD) and Sony/Philips (MMCD) each had a competing idea to what the next generation CD format would be -- their compromise ended up being DVD.

Blu Ray (http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/): Board of directors currently:
Apple Computer, Inc.
Dell Inc.
Hewlett Packard Company
Hitachi, Ltd.
LG Electronics Inc.
Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd. (Panasonic)
Mitsubishi Electric Corporation
Pioneer Corporation
Royal Philips Electronics
Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.
Sharp Corporation
Sony Corporation
TDK Corporation
Thomson Multimedia
Twentieth Century Fox
Walt Disney Pictures
+ 100 others.

HD-DVD (http://www.hddvdprg.com/about/member.html): General Members (not complete, most of them are companies most have never heard of):
Toshiba
Fuji
Funai
Kenwood
NEC
Paramount
Universal
Warner Home
Konica-Minolta
Onkyo
Hitachi Maxell
Sanyo
+ others.

Those are arguably the biggest names for each side. You tell me who has more power and marketing money? HD-DVD may have a price advantage in production, but BR consortium has pretty much all the big name electronic companies besides, of course, Toshiba -- prices and production costs will go down real fast with all those companies competing with each other. Add in to that the install base of the PS3 and HD-DVDs future looks grim.

I have a feeling that has something to do with why BR group was rather unwilling to compromise -- they are in a better position overall.

[Rommel]

Technology seems to be pushed by either porn or games

Oh yeah... aliens are coming to visit *Us* We're the pervs of the universe!

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

Just look at Betamax, minidiscs, memory sticks, or UMD. Instead of relying on conventional, widespread technology, they tend to build their devices with their own storage formats.

With the exception of Memory Sticks (and DVD+Rs, although Philips was just as involved with those as Sony), I don't think this is really a fair criticism. What "conventional, widespread technology" was Sony supposed to use instead of Betamax? No other home video format existed at the time. What recordable digital audio format should Sony have adopted instead of Minidisc? DCC (Minidisc's only real competitor at the time) was hardly "conventional" or "widespread."

And I don't see any particular problem with using UMDs for the PSP, to be honest. Aside from the fact that proprietary formats have been used by portable gaming systems as long as they've existed, it's hard to think of an existing format that would've been completely suitable. Mini-DVDs wouldn't have worked without significant alterations -- namely the introduction of caddies -- and would've introduced major piracy concerns for no real benefit (it's not as if the system would've been able to use DVD movie playback as a selling point, given that very very few movies are available on mini DVD, and Sony would be forced to pay royalties to the DVD Forum). And 1.8 GB of solid state memory is just too expensive right now for use with a portable gaming system.

It's not as if Sony keeps their formats all to themselves, anyway. Sony's actually been pretty good about licensing out their formats -- a number of companies manufactured Beta decks and Minidisc players and discs are still available from several manufacturers (although not as many as in the past, given the rise of CD-Rs and MP3 players). They've even opened up UMD, although I don't see it be widely adopted for anything besides the PSP. I don't think the "failure" of these formats can be blamed wholly or even in large part on the fact that they were developed by Sony on their own initiative; if that were the case, then how did some of Sony's other formats (namely Betacam and DAT) become so successful in their respective markets? Memory Sticks are really the one case I can think of where Sony went ahead and developed their own format for absolutely no compelling reason beyond "we want to force people to buy Sony products."

[Furious Wang]

http://dvd.ign.com/articles/577/577955p2.html

HD-DVD Launch title list.

Looks like a good list to me.

[B_Money]

Oh yeah... aliens are coming to visit *Us* We're the pervs of the universe!

That explains all the probing.

[Wonka]

I am still unconvinced that ANY of this next gen DVD format stuff matters at all. I still smell a laserdisc fiasco. Why do I need Blu-Ray or HD-DVD? I just don't even FEEL the need for that. And I am a big huge geek. I mean, I own all the consoles, I have a gigantic TV, and a nice sound system blah, blah blah, blah. I know that I am SUPPOSED to be the guy who is all excited about higher resolution movies. But strangely, I am NOT. It all feels like greed to me. They want to sell me the movies I bought twice before: AGAIN. I am just tired of buying the same films over and over... Am I alone in this? Do any of you guys out there just have too much consumer burnout to repurchase your whole movie collection yet again?

Ugh, ask me after another decade if I want the holographic feelie version. Then maybe we will talk...

[Reanimated]

http://dvd.ign.com/articles/577/577955p2.html

HD-DVD Launch title list.

Looks like a good list to me.



Yeah and that doesn't even include the New Line stuff. Plus, that's all coming THIS YEAR, whereas Blu Ray will be about a year behind.

Oh and did I mention that Toshiba recently announced a 45GB HDDVD disc, thus negating Sony's capacity "advantage" for the home video market.

All this coupled with the fact that HDDVD is the only DVD Forum approved product leads me to believe that Blu Ray will be stillborn. In the end, Hollywood and the consumers will decide what the next gen format will be... not a list of electronics manufacturers. At the end of the day, electronics manufacturers will line up behind whichever format is taking off the fastest. A lot of japanese electronics firms are already seeing their market share being eaten away by Chinese companies who are undercutting their prices (Sony in particular has this problem). They're not going to take the chance of losing yet another market to Chinese and Korean manufacturers.

[mister_slim]

Oh and did I mention that Toshiba recently announced a 45GB HDDVD disc, thus negating Sony's capacity "advantage" for the home video market.

I don't see how 45GB negates 100GB.

[Fubl]

porn is pushing HD-dvd .....

[Reanimated]

I don't see how 45GB negates 100GB.



Maybe you need some reading comprehension. I said for the home video market. Blu Ray's home video discs are dual layer 50GB discs (BD-ROM). The only discs they have the higher capacity discs are the 4 layer BD-R/RE variety for home PC use.

Both formats now have the ability to hold 4+ hours of HD video content (plus 5.1 sound) on a single disc. As far as Hollywood is concerned, capacity is not an issue anymore.

[mister_slim]

Maybe you need some reading comprehension. I said for the home video market. Blu Ray's home video discs are dual layer 50GB discs (BD-ROM). The only discs they have the higher capacity discs are the 4 layer BD-R/RE variety for home PC use.

Both formats now have the ability to hold 4+ hours of HD video content (plus 5.1 sound) on a single disc. As far as Hollywood is concerned, capacity is not an issue anymore.
So why are you bragging about the difference between 8 hours of HD versus 12? I don't think Hollywood is going to be putting five movies on each HD-DVD.

[Reanimated]

What the hell are you talking about?

I'm saying both formats ROM discs (home video) are about 50GB and hold 4+ hours of HD video. What the fuck are you talking about 8 vs 12 hours and 5 movies?

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

Oh and did I mention that Toshiba recently announced a 45GB HDDVD disc, thus negating Sony's capacity "advantage" for the home video market.

Yes, but the HD-DVD spec approved by the DVD Forum doesn't support the 45GB triple-layer discs. In order to support the triple-layer discs, the DVD Forum would have to approve a new standard -- which shouldn't be impossible (indeed, they've already revised the standard several times; I think they're up to version 1.2 now), but then it'd be no more impossible for the Blu-Ray group to go back and approve a new BD-ROM standard that supports the 100GB discs.

[Reanimated]

Toshiba is currently working on getting the 45GB disc approved. This was mentioned in their press release. Shouldn't be a problem. Not like it matters anyway... I mean Blu Ray isn't approved AT ALL.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

Toshiba is currently working on getting the 45GB disc approved. This was mentioned in their press release. Shouldn't be a problem. Not like it matters anyway... I mean Blu Ray isn't approved AT ALL.

The issue is that the disc formats have to be approved by their respective consortiums (the DVD Forum for HD-DVD, the Blu-Ray Disc Association in the case of BD) in order for the formats to be standardized. If the 45GB disc isn't part of the standard, then HD-DVD players won't be required to support it, and the studios won't bother making 45GB discs because not all HD-DVD players will be able to handle them. There's no reason triple-layer support shouldn't be added to the HD-DVD standard; indeed, I'm positive it will be. But to say that the TDK 100GB Blu-Ray discs won't be supported for home video just because it's not part of the current BD-ROM spec while simultaneously arguing (correctly) that the HD-DVD spec can be changed to accomodate the 45GB discs seems rather inconsistent. It's no more difficult for the Blu-Ray group to change their spec than it is for the DVD Forum.

[mister_slim]

What the hell are you talking about?

I'm saying both formats ROM discs (home video) are about 50GB and hold 4+ hours of HD video. What the fuck are you talking about 8 vs 12 hours and 5 movies?
45GB is about 12 hours of HD (according to Toshiba). 30GB is about 8 hours. If 4+ hours is the sweet spot, why does this even matter? Is Hollywood going to consistently fill 8 hours, much less 12?

[Morrolan]

Sorry for the stupid question, but what the hell is the DVD Forum, and why do I as a consumer care what they do or do not approve?

[edit] - n/m, I think LotRHM's post pretty much answered my question.

[Reanimated]

The issue is that the disc formats have to be approved by their respective consortiums (the DVD Forum for HD-DVD, the Blu-Ray Disc Association in the case of BD) in order for the formats to be standardized. If the 45GB disc isn't part of the standard, then HD-DVD players won't be required to support it, and the studios won't bother making 45GB discs because not all HD-DVD players will be able to handle them. There's no reason triple-layer support shouldn't be added to the HD-DVD standard; indeed, I'm positive it will be. But to say that the TDK 100GB Blu-Ray discs won't be supported for home video just because it's not part of the current BD-ROM spec while simultaneously arguing (correctly) that the HD-DVD spec can be changed to accomodate the 45GB discs seems rather inconsistent. It's no more difficult for the Blu-Ray group to change their spec than it is for the DVD Forum.




lol, that's not what I'm saying at all. 4 layer BDROM discs don't exist. TDK's disc is a -R prototype. Yeah I guess if they come up with one in 2 years (Sony says late 2007), they could go back and add it to the spec, but it seems to me like that would pretty well screw the early adopters of Blu Ray over and add to the confusion for Joe Blow consumer.

[Reanimated]

45GB is about 12 hours of HD (according to Toshiba). 30GB is about 8 hours. If 4+ hours is the sweet spot, why does this even matter? Is Hollywood going to consistently fill 8 hours, much less 12?

All I'm saying is that HDDVD ROM and BDROM are the same capacity now. I have no idea what the fuck all this bullshit you're flinging around is about.

[Reanimated]

Sorry for the stupid question, but what the hell is the DVD Forum, and why do I as a consumer care what they do or do not approve?

[edit] - n/m, I think LotRHM's post pretty much answered my question.



The DVD forum is the consortium of companies that controls the DVD spec. Their approval carries a lot of weight in which format will come out on top in the HD race.

They have approved HDDVD. They have not approved Blu Ray.

[B_Money]

45GB is about 12 hours of HD (according to Toshiba). 30GB is about 8 hours. If 4+ hours is the sweet spot, why does this even matter? Is Hollywood going to consistently fill 8 hours, much less 12?

Hollywood will find a way. Imagine Star Wars 4-6 in Hd on one disk, or an entire season of Lost. Of course, whgat we'll end up most of the time as a 4 hour movie and 8 hours of deleted scenes, documentarys and commentary tracks.

[Reanimated]

Actually Hollywood would rather continue selling multi-disc sets (at least Warner has stated this). It allows them to jack up the price.

A single disc version of the Star Wars trilogy doesn't seem like it's worth as much as a 3 disc box set to the average consumer.

[B_Money]

Actually Hollywood would rather continue selling multi-disc sets (at least Warner has stated this). It allows them to jack up the price.

A single disc version of the Star Wars trilogy doesn't seem like it's worth as much as a 3 disc box set to the average consumer.

Interesting point. Just how much are they going to charge for these HD disks? A HD version of a movie has more value than the SD version, but how miuch more is the average consumer willing to pay? Persumabally early adopters will end up paying a premium, but the price will drop. Then production companies will add in extra content, allowing them to charge more again.

[Reanimated]

HDDVD is going to cost about 3 cents more per disc to produce (as opposed to 3-5 dollars - Sony's estimate - for Blu Ray), so HDDVDs are going to be priced at about the same level as current DVDs.

Toshiba is making a hard push on this point. Their biggest selling point is price. The price will be the same.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

lol, that's not what I'm saying at all. 4 layer BDROM discs don't exist. TDK's disc is a -R prototype. Yeah I guess if they come up with one in 2 years (Sony says late 2007)

Do you have a source for this? All I can find are articles noting that the new format is writable, but I've seen nothing from TDK or anyone else specifically ruling out a read-only variant of the same format. Even if it doesn't exist yet, I certainly don't see why it's so improbable that they could at least have a spec by 2006 (even if the discs themselves aren't actually ready for mass production). Hell, they don't really need to have Blu-Ray players out before spring 2006 (when the PS3 will presumably launch in Japan), so it's not like they don't have any wriggle room left.

Their approval carries a lot of weight in which format will come out on top in the HD race.

How so? The DVD Forum is a purely voluntary association and its members are not obliged follow the organization's lead. In fact, they've basically split over the HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray issue and most of the forum's 230-company membership hasn't committed to HD-DVD. Nearly all of the 120 companies currently belonging to the Blu-Ray Disc Association also belong to the DVD Forum, but that hardly means Sony, Hitachi and other Blu-Ray-backing DVD Forum members support HD-DVD. If the DVD Forum carried any significant weight, Blu-Ray probably wouldn't exist at all. Their main advantage is that they own the DVD trademark.

[bobbler]

The DVD forum is the consortium of companies that controls the DVD spec. Their approval carries a lot of weight in which format will come out on top in the HD race.

They have approved HDDVD. They have not approved Blu Ray.

On the other side of things, all (or almost all) the companies in the BR consortium are also in the DVD forum. The DVD forum may official give HD-DVD its 'Okay', but it doesn't explain the fact that BR has far more support company wise per consortium (comparing member lists of BR and HD-DVD consortiums). The DVD forum consists of about 250 -- the BR consortium already has ~120 and it isn't even out yet. Members of DVD forum don't magically become defacto members of the HD-DVD forum -- which atm only has about 87 companies (most of which are fairly small and don't have the manufacturing facilities of the key members of BR). So I'm not too sure how much DVD forum's support really means when considering the actual support.

I really don't see how HD-DVD players can get out in full force when there is essentially very little support, in terms of production abilities (Toshiba is the only major player they have in the home electronics market -- NEC/Sanyo/Onkyo makes some but they are relatively small in the home market). When a person walks into a store and sees 7-8 different BR players and 2-3 HD-DVD players, what do you think they are more inclined to look at? -- the average consumer will hear far more about BR than they will HD-DVD (from PS3, HP/Dell/Apple, and the various electronics companies, etc). You can argue that HD-DVD players may be cheaper, but it's doubtful -- especially considering BR players will have more inter format competition with so many companies -- they are also both blue laser based so there is about the same amount of cost going into both of them (disc costs are the only avantage HD-DVD currently has and that is slowly dwindling with new mastering techniques and coatings which several BR consortium companies have been working on). I don't see how they can put up the marketing force that the BR consortium can/will. They do have 3 major content companies, like BR (3 movie studios each) -- but they are missing backing in electronics and other departments. So who knows, there are still a few content providers that seemingly haven't decided yet (at least publically) and so it's hard to say (One thing is for sure: Star wars trilogy (the good 3) will be Blu-ray)

Who knows though, I can see the battle being close near the start (because it seems, as you said, HD-DVD will have a time advantage) -- over the next couple years though, I don't see how HD-DVD can continue to put up a fight.


edit: it seems Last of the Red Hot Mamas beat me to it :rolleyes:

[Reanimated]

lol, Toshiba is not the only company making HDDVD players and there are a TON of HDDVD movies launching THIS FALL.

Actually a lot of the manufacturers on the Blu Ray panel are also making HDDVD players. Like I said - the Japanese manufacturers are not going to sit back for a year and let cheap Chinese & Korean manufacturers squeeze them out of another market. They'll be making players for whichever format looks to be taking off faster, and right now that appears to be HDDVD.

Anyway, the last major player hanging out there is Fox. As go they, so goes the war, I say. Still though, I'll probably pick up an HDDVD player this fall if they get them out at around 500 dollars like they're saying. At that price I'd be hard pressed to pass up Batman Begins, LOTR, Harry Potter, and The Matrix in HD.



EDIT:

Ah yes, this is what I was alluding to earlier:

Sony also has already announced plans to develop 100GB (4-layer) and 200GB (8-layer) Blu-ray media, although it is not clear if upcoming Blu-ray players or the ones already released in Japan will support these 4/8 layer discs.

http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/11794


And here we go:

http://www.hddvdprg.com/about/member.html

There are a lot of manufacturers there, and I know Samsung (on the BR panel) has said that they will also be producing HDDVD drives.

Oh yeah, and there are actually more HDDVD members on the DVD Forum's sterring committee that BR.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

Still though, I'll probably pick up an HDDVD player this fall if they get them out at around 500 dollars like they're saying. At that price I'd be hard pressed to pass up Batman Begins, LOTR, Harry Potter, and The Matrix in HD.

But isn't HD-DVD a stopgap format destined to flop?

[bobbler]

lol, Toshiba is not the only company making HDDVD players
... ... ...

Who else?

Also ... Panasonic, Samsung, Pioneer, Philips, Sharp, Sony, and Mitsubishi for sure won't be touching HD-DVD. They are the board of directors of the BR consortium (very much responsible for Blu-ray). The others I can't say for sure, although, I have my doubts since they aren't in the HD-DVD consortium. To get the specs and such (to make a player) I'm pretty sure they'd need to be a member of the consortium -- maybe not.

[Reanimated]

But isn't HD-DVD a stopgap format destined to flop?



If you're asking me whether or not I still believe that something like HVD is going to come along in 2008+, when the market is actually ready for an upgrade, and wipe these other formats away, then the answer is yes. But I also had a Laser Disc player. I'm one of these people that spends a lot of money on a lot of toys that I probably don't need.

If you're just trying to bait me into another one of your stupid fucking pointless arguments, then the answer is fuck off, it's my bedtime.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

If you're asking me whether or not I still believe that something like HVD is going to come along in 2008+, when the market is actually ready for an upgrade, and wipe these other formats away, then the answer is yes. But I also had a Laser Disc player.

Yes, but laserdisc lasted two decades, not four or five years. Spending ~$500 for a piece of hardware (and god knows what on software) that will be obsolete in a few years isn't exactly uncommon (that's pretty much what gaming is), but re-buying movies for a format that you know full well will flop and then turning around and buying them again just a few years later seems less like a case of buying stuff you don't really need and more like a strange version of battered wife syndrome.

[bobbler]

http://www.hddvdprg.com/about/member.html

There are a lot of manufacturers there, and I know Samsung (on the BR panel) has said that they will also be producing HDDVD drives.

Oh yeah, and there are actually more HDDVD members on the DVD Forum's sterring committee that BR.

I looked through that list, but there isn't any major companies that produce home electronics. I see a lot of camera companies, some software companies, some disc/media companies, and a ton of small companies that produce god knows what.


Looking online for samsung's announcement of HD-DVD players it seems they are using just normal DVDs but are just higher quality players so they put the HD moniker on them. Samsung HD-841 "HD DVD" player (http://www.bytesector.com/data/bs-article.asp?ID=364), I'm not sure if that's the announced product you heard mentioned (it threw me off until I read the supported formats of their "HD DVD" players and none of them are HD-DVD). I have my doubts that any company on the Board of directors of the BR consortium are going to stick their hands into HD-DVD -- a lot of money has gone into it, why threaten that with support for another format?

[Reanimated]

Who else?

Also ... Panasonic, Samsung (scratch samsung, you are correct they are making an HD-DVD player), Pioneer, Philips, Sharp, Sony, and Mitsubishi for sure won't be touching HD-DVD. They are the board of directors of the BR consortium (very much responsible for Blu-ray). The others I can't say for sure, although, I have my doubts since they aren't in the HD-DVD consortium. To get the specs and such (to make a player) I'm pretty sure they'd need to be a member of the consortium -- maybe not.

edit: Who knows then...



Did you see the link I posted? There are several manufacturers there. Sanyo, Hitachi, Alpine, NEC, ONKYO, Fujitsu, Kenwood... Plus you've got Samsung. There's going to be plenty to choose from.

No "major" companies?

Wow. Just wow. Yeah, cus Fuji, Kenwood, Sanyo, Hitachi and Alpine are startups. I bet they've all got less than 50 employees. I wonder which one of them built my Sanyo DVD player. :rolleyes:

[Reanimated]

Yes, but laserdisc lasted two decades, not four or five years.



Yeah and it was huge. I can remember walking into Blockbuster and renting my favorite movies on Laser Disc... oh wait, no I can't. :(

[Kagger]

Disney has got to love this. Not only do they have huge sales everytime they rerelease one of their movies, but now they can claim 'first time ever on blue-ray snow white and the 7 dwares ultra platinum!"

[bobbler]

I wouldn't exactly call Sanyo, Hitachi, Alpine, Onkyo, Fujitsu, Kenwood, and Nec comparable to the major 'trusted' names that that BR has. All those companies (for the most part) make high quality stuff (which will be nice for HD-DVD consumers out there), but name recognition makes a huge difference in sales to random joe-wannabe-tech-savvy-consumer.

Looking online (as I just posted previously) I looked for the actual announcement or anything actually relating to HD-DVD from samsung and I couldn't find it. Their only mention of HD DVD is on the HD-8XX and HD-9XX line of normal DVD players, which they call HD DVD players (because they are actually progressive scan, I guess).

I have been to HD-DVD's website many times comparing their backing to BR's -- I looked at the lists long before posting to begin with (read my original post in this thread, I give links to both pages members).

The more we dig into it the messier it seems to get, heh. Neither side has a hands down clear win, however, I think BR is still in a better position overall (PS3 will, whether people want to believe it or not, give a major boost to the support of the format).

[DriveALW]

Most PS2 games are still pressed on CDs rather than DVDs. Most games just don't need that kind of storage space, unless there's a lot of video. Is this really a big issue for consoles? Won't conventional DVDs, or slight variations (Nintendo most likely) be plenty for this generation? Maybe a couple of 360 games would span 2 discs, but gamers are used to that. If BR eventually flops as a home video format, that doesn't keep Sony from using it for PS3 games for the next 5 years. I'm sure someone will be happy to yell at me for missing something major, but this, to me, seems to be a problem for just the home theater market. Thoughts?

[bobbler]

Most PS2 games are still pressed on CDs rather than DVDs. Most games just don't need that kind of storage space, unless there's a lot of video. Is this really a big issue for consoles? Won't conventional DVDs, or slight variations (Nintendo most likely) be plenty for this generation? Maybe a couple of 360 games would span 2 discs, but gamers are used to that. If BR eventually flops as a home video format, that doesn't keep Sony from using it for PS3 games for the next 5 years. I'm sure someone will be happy to yell at me for missing something major, but this, to me, seems to be a problem for just the home theater market. Thoughts?

I'm pretty sure only a handful of the launch games were like that (I've only heard recently that there were actually CD games for PS2, so I'm no expert on it). I know I don't have any PS2 games on CD (DVDs have the DVD logo on the disc and case -- check your PS2 games -- if you don't believe that, put it in a DVD drive on a PC and look at the disc size).

I agree with you, I think. Most of this debate doesn't really matter for games -- even if BR fails the PS3 isn't going to just stop functioning. In addition to that, the DVD size will probably be plenty for most games this generation (if not then dual layer and multiple disc will satisfy it). It's not a big deal either way, gaming wise.

[Vandenh]

Those lists of companies don't mean a lot... expect a lot of them to switch sides very quickly once one format begins to dominate.

[Goronmon]

Isn't there some other format being developed that basically combines the blue and red laser reader to create a super format? Something where the storage compacity could reach 1+ terabytes? I could have sworn I read about that somewhere.

Yeah, I think that format is going to win. ;)

[Reanimated]

Your'e thinking of HVD - Holographic Versitile Disc. It is capable of holding multiple terabytes of data on non-spinning discs.

And yeah, I too am convinced that this format, or something similar, will come along and wipe away these other formats. I think that Blu Ray and HDDVD are going be Laser Disc type of markets, and by the time the bulk of the market is actually ready for a switch, a far superior format like HVD will have matured.

But who knows...

[Goronmon]

Yeah, I just don't see Blu Ray and HDDVD taking off anytime soon. I mean, sure new TVs will all need to support HD soon, but I doubt many people are going to replace their current TV right away. And in 2-3 years, by the time HD is widespread (IMO) then you'll have some new format, like HVD, that'll be far superior and thus people switching from DVD will want to choose the best format, and BR or HDDVD prolly won't be it.

[DriveALW]

I'm pretty sure only a handful of the launch games were like that (I've only heard recently that there were actually CD games for PS2, so I'm no expert on it). I know I don't have any PS2 games on CD (DVDs have the DVD logo on the disc and case -- check your PS2 games -- if you don't believe that, put it in a DVD drive on a PC and look at the disc size).

Hm... Seems you're right. What threw me is that the DVD based games all used to be blue on the back. I remember reading in the first year of launch that most games were still on CD, but that's clearly not the case anymore. In any event, thanks for the polite correction!

[Kamalot]

http://dvd.ign.com/articles/577/577955p2.html

HD-DVD Launch title list.

Looks like a good list to me.
From what I understand, HD-DVD will be launching first as well.

I also read that the actual discs will be MUCH cheaper to produce.

[ElectricMonk]

HDDVD is going to cost about 3 cents more per disc to produce (as opposed to 3-5 dollars - Sony's estimate - for Blu Ray), so HDDVDs are going to be priced at about the same level as current DVDs.

Toshiba is making a hard push on this point. Their biggest selling point is price. The price will be the same.


you don't honestly believe that. cd's are a minute fraction of the cost of a tape. dvd's are nothing compared to a dvd. yet they still charge a premium for the dvd version.

[mister_slim]

Sony has developed equipment to streamline the disc mastering process by reducing the eleven steps currently used in DVD mastering to five for BD-ROM. This mastering process, Phase Transition Mastering (PTM), requires as little as one-fifth of the space required for DVD mastering and the equipment can be configured to allow mastering of both BD-ROM and DVD-ROM on a single system. The first two commercial machines are for Technicolor and Cinram for Q2, 2005 installation.

With these developments in the industry, replication facilities in the United States are setting up and preparing to mass produce BD-ROM Discs. Technicolor is establishing a complete pilot BD disc manufacturing process by July 2005. Cinram already has a pilot replication line that produced demo discs for CES 2005 and is awaiting the delivery of commercial lines.

"Fox is pleased to see the increasing number of technology companies and materials vendors committing to Blu-ray implementation, which is reducing costs to promising levels through technological breakthroughs and innovation," said Danny Kaye, SVP Technology and Research Strategy at Twentieth Century Fox. "We look forward to continued technological progress along with developments in content protection."

In addition to ramping up for mass production of the 50GB discs that will be available at format launch, Blu-ray has begun work to ensure that the format continues to grow as high-definition technology evolves. Blu-ray companies have successfully demonstrated 200GB discs in a laboratory environment and are poised to further expand the format's capacity as needs dictate.

Blu-Ray is d00med.