Nintendo Fans Their Own Greatest Enemy?

[Draconis]

N'Gai Croal has an interesting article up over on Newsweek from GoNintendo's own Kevin Cassidy about the state of how Nintendo Fans view Third Party Support of the Nintendo Wii.

P2P: GoNintendo.com's Kevin Cassidy Challenges Nintendo Fans' Rejection of Third Party Games (http://ncroal.talk.newsweek.com/default.asp?item=524536)


Are Nintendo Fanboys shooting themselves in their own foot? Who, where, why and when do Wii ourselves, as Nintendo Fans, Support Third Party Titles?

Editor - Thanks to if76 for a similar submission

[menage]

Well, because their crap and not targeted at Nintendo fans.

Take the cube for instance. the only good 3d party software came from Capcom, and thats about it. Ther rest was pure cash in or kiddy stuff. Compare that to the standard Nintendo fans have for games in general (metroid, zelda, mario) and the games they want to play.

PS2 and Xbox have a much heavier and diverse 3d party line-up. Plus the fans aren't in godlike admiration of anything concerning a certain Princess.

[Zeal]

Even my little 13-year-old cousin stopped playing Nintendo. He was tired of kids at school making fun of him.

[Klade]

All third party games for Nintendo flop between being ports that are best played on other systems or really poorly made titles. When we get a rare gem that is both good and best played on the nintendo console then it sells like gangbusters. This one isn't hard to figure out.

[DangerousDaze]

Oh God, don't let easi spot this thread. :p

[Gorvi]

If the 3rd party games on Nintendo platforms weren't largely throwaway crap, then, yeah, they would be. The DS has started to buck this trend finally, with pretty strong support from Capcom, Square Enix, Konami, and Atlus, but it still remains to be seen with the Wii.

[captainspankypants]

Cassidy's article is crap. He sites one really innovative game — Dewey's Adventure, which IS kiddie even if he won't admit it — and then lists Prince of Persia: Rival Swords, The Godfather: Blackhand Edition, Scarface, and Mortal Kombat: Armageddon. Those games were mediocre at best when they came out like a year ago. If there's so many fantastic games that use the Wii to their best advantage, he should list those games, not these half-baked ports.

[Draconis]

All third party games for Nintendo flop between being ports that are best played on other systems or really poorly made titles. When we get a rare gem that is both good and best played on the nintendo console then it sells like gangbusters. This one isn't hard to figure out.


The problem however, As Kevin Cassidy is stating, is that alot of the games third party wise, aren't even out yet, and already Nintendo Fanboys make up their mind that the game just flat out sucks without even giving it a try. They look at a single screenshot and go OMFG LAWL KIDDIEZ!

It's this mentality, as he points out, that is hurting the entire process.

[Baron Samedi]

Yeah, it's hard not to knock third parties when most of their games are ports from games they made last generation or shall we say, Billy Hatcher. Although Cassidy needs to mention that one reason Nintendo lost all its support was because they were arrogant assholes. But speaking of kiddie games, Little Big Planet or Viva Pinata anyone?

[violentp]

Even my little 13-year-old cousin stopped playing Nintendo. He was tired of kids at school making fun of him.

Hey, what did I already tell you about attempting humor? We don't need you getting hurt now.

[SalaciousPuck]

He's saying it's the people who buy the Wii, and that's true - you buy a Nintendo console to play Nintendo games. Still, a bigger issue for the Wii, long term, is hardware.

The Wii hardware is a magnet for PS2/XBOX ports and revamps (old engine w/ new levels, etc). That's the double edged sword of the Wii's design - it attracts publishers that can squeeze some juice out of a last gen game (so it should attract more support...), but won't appeal much to developers best and brightest ideas (....just not good support). No one is going to want to build a gaming revolution, or even a new gaming engine, on outdated tech.

[if76]

Nintendo doesn't really need/want 3rd party support on its consoles. Trying to develop for them is like pulling teeth. Once they lost the ability to charge out the ass for cartridge fees, they stopped trying to lure in 3rd parties.

A 3rd party game only takes away from 1st party sales. The problem isn't the fans. It's Nintendo itself.

[Draconis]

Nintendo doesn't really need/want 3rd party support on its consoles. Trying to develop for them is like pulling teeth. Once they lost the ability to charge out the ass for cartridge fees, they stopped trying to lure in 3rd parties.

A 3rd party game only takes away from 1st party sales. The problem isn't the fans. It's Nintendo itself.


I'll heavily disagree with this. Nintendo has made it quite clear that they are doing almost everything to support third parties. Even if that support has been coming slow (Net kits), it is there. No More Heroes and Manhunt 2 are two good examples of unique third party support. The Support is there. Nintendo realizes full well that they can only pump out so many titles from their development houses every iteration. And Nintendo as we all know takes their time to get it right.

No. What is hurting Nintendo, is it's fans. They are MORE then happy to Accept Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Kid Icarus, Etc....

But if it comes to any other title, that might be remotely along those lines from other Companies, they are quick to jump on it and tear the flesh from it's bones because it is not Zelda/Mario/etc....

Doesn't matter if it's a good game. It's not Nintendo. That's the point Kevin is making as well.

[Rirath]

Wow, between the font and the bright, bright whiteness of that site... that's one hard to read article. I'd expect more of somebody's blog, much less MSNBC. A little contrast helps, people.

I'll heavily disagree with this. Nintendo has made it quite clear that they are doing almost everything to support third parties. Even if that support has been coming slow (Net kits), it is there.

No. What is hurting Nintendo, is it's fans.
Doesn't matter if it's a good game. It's not Nintendo.

I don't believe any of that. Nintendo has been awful all along at providing 3rd party support, and third parties seem to want nothing to do with Nintendo. The net kits are just par for the course as far as Nintendo goes. They can say whatever they want, but it doesn't make it true.

How much time do they need? Most people, gamers or devs, aren't willing to sit around and wait when there's two other perfectly good platforms out there. A few good titles at the end of a console's lifespan doesn't equate to 3rd party support, nor IMO do one or two early examples. I mean, is anybody out there actually looking forward to Manhunt 2?

It just sounds like blaming the fans because Nintendo can't get or handle decent 3rd party support.

[Doctor Setebos]

I don't know whose fault it is, but a lot of 3rd party games on both the GameCube and the Wii just plain suck. I try hard to obtain the quality titles just so I can ensure further quality 3rd party support. I picked up Viewtiful Joe and Beyond Good and Evil for the Cube. But there's no way you can get me to pay full price for crap like Far Cry: Vengeance, Avatar, and Call of Duty 3. They were games that were rushed out to meet a deadline and show Nintendo that they "support" the Wii.

With support like this, who needs 3rd parties?

But honestly, it isn't the fans that are the problem. It's the publishers who need to get serious and put out some quality content, and not half-assed PS2 and PSP ports. They need to stop putting together "concepts" and "ideas" to test the waters.

I have hope for the future. Dragon Quest Swords looks fantastic. Godfather and Heatseeker have a lot of potential. I'm even looking forward to games like No More Heroes and Treasure Island Z.

Get on board the Wii train, publishers, or you'll be left behind and the companies that actually put forth the effort will be rewarded with all the great sales. :D

[Baron Samedi]

It just sounds like blaming the fans because Nintendo can't get or handle decent 3rd party support.

Exactly. Nintendo lost third parties because a) they were assholes (a position Sony now occupies, but may break out of) and b) CD's were so much cheaper. They didn't gain much Cube support simple because the install base was a joke next to PS2. *** won support because they went all out on trying to attract third parties and lowered their standards (something Nintendo has only done grudgingly), their million dollar bribery and their familiar PC architecture. Third parties = a greater install base = more profit. Nintendo wants third parties. They can float just find with minimal support as the GC nicely demonstrated, but if the Big N wants to be anything more than a novelty, it needs third parties.

[nemyhlovecraft]

I can't imagine how people could be more wrong about 3rd party games for Nintendo consoles.

The real reason there wasn't much love for 3rd party GCN games was because there weren't a lot of them worth playing. Some great ones came through though: Cubivore, RE4, Viewtiful Joe for instance, and I'll have to say I own more 3rd party GCN games than 1st party.

The DS's 3rd party appreciation is fantastic with awesome games like the two Castlevanias, Nanostray, Trauma Center, FF3, Phoenix Wright which people have rightly given praise. There are some 3rd party stinkers, but thats simply because of the Nickelodeon, etc spill over from the GBA.

Lastly, the Wii is largely untested ground for 3rd party. Raving Rabbids was a strong 3rd party, and Trauma Center. Unfortunately a lot of the 3rd party games out are either poorly made or, as my friend puts it, port-n-waggles. SSX Blur looks good, though, but honestly devs are going to prove they know what to do with the Wii-mote, I think.

About the whole kiddy thing...I don't get it. If a game is fun who cares what the key demo was for it. Honestly I think that universal appeal is what Nintendo is shooting for, and unfortunately Disney, Nickelodeon, and Cartoon Network think that means "hey, shunt all your stupid IPs over this way because kids play this console". Thats my two cents plus.

[ECM]

When 3rd party publishers actually start publishing unique, non-ported, non-shovelware junk to the Wii, they will start to take some marketshare from Nintendo (the same could be said for the Cube, which played, at best, 3rd fiddle last gen in the 3rd party stakes.) To blame Wii owners (as if Nintendo fanboys wouldn't lap up FFXIII if it came to Wii first, etc.) for this state of affairs is, frankly, absurd.

[Baron Samedi]

I picked up Viewtiful Joe and Beyond Good and Evil for the Cube. But there's no way you can get me to pay full price for crap like Far Cry: Vengeance, Avatar, and Call of Duty 3.

Yes, but I think another reason why third parties get slammed on Nintendo is because third parties are Sony's bread and butter. Sony's inhouse devs have given us God of War and a few other titles, but GTA, MGS, all those platformers like Jak and Daxter and Ratchet and Clank, and EA sports are all third party. The other thing is that there are so fucking many PS2 third party games that a few bad eggs get lost in the shuffle.

[baz]

I think its mainly a bunch of crap. The gamecube I bought was the first nintendo console I've ever owned, and the majority of the games I bought for the system were Nintendo published, even though I had not a jot of n-loyalty (although that has changed since owning the GCN, Wii, GBASP and DSLite) simply because they were the best games for that console.

I owned some really good third party games too (Res Evil 4, Prince of Persia: SoT, F-Zero GX, quite a few more...), but its probably 50/50 nintendo to third party.

[Headcase]

I'll agree with the majority here. Most 3rd party games on the GC and Wii just suck. I play the best games, and on the GC and Wii, most of those are made by Nintendo.

The only two 3rd party games on the Wii that have decent control that I can think of off the top of my head are Rayman and Trauma Center. Trauma Center is based on the DS version, so they would have had to try to mess it up. Rayman is probably the best 3rd party game on the Wii, but it's pretty unpolished and doesn't have much lasting value.

IMO, Sonic has really terrible controls, and Blur has pretty annoying controls as well.

Meanwhile, I love Warioware's controls, love Excite Truck's controls, love TP's controls, and like Wii Sports' controls enough (after getting used to them).

Most developers just dumped weak ports on to the GC. EA is a great example, porting all of their shit but not porting Burnout 3, since that game is actually pretty good, so they couldn't put that on the Cube. Good work, guys.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Nintendo fans buy:

Good Nintendo games.
Bad Nintendo games.
Quite Good 3rd Party games.

What they do NOT buy is BAD 3rd party games.

[TheFlyingOrc]

IMO, Sonic has really terrible controls, and Blur has pretty annoying controls as well.

Meanwhile, I love Warioware's controls, love Excite Truck's controls, love TP's controls, and like Wii Sports' controls enough (after getting used to them).


I felt that sonic controlled quite a bit LIKE excite truck. The problem is the handful of places where they want you need to back up. Also, I wish you didn't have to charge your jumps - it's somewhat counter-intuitive to sonic - it should be about your reaction time, not about planning ahead.

[Goronmon]

But if it comes to any other title, that might be remotely along those lines from other Companies, they are quick to jump on it and tear the flesh from it's bones because it is not Zelda/Mario/etc....Yeah, I remember how poorly RE4 was received and how people just blew it off as a crap because it wasn't a first party title. If only Nintendo fanboys could recognize great games like that when they are available on Nintendo consoles...

...oh wait.

Like TFO mentioned...what Nintendo fans don't accept are mediocre third-party titles that might sell better on the Playstation.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Yeah, I remember how poorly RE4 was received and how people just blew it off as a crap because it wasn't a first party title. If only Nintendo fanboys could recognize great games like that when they are available on Nintendo consoles...

...oh wait.

Like TFC mentioned...what Nintendo fans don't accept are mediocre third-party titles that might sell better on the Playstation.

I would add, however, that a 3rd-party game has to be QUITE good. Eternal Darkness did not do well, and it's pretty cool (story, at least).

But RE4 and the first Viewtiful Joe I think both sold quite well.

edit: It's TFO, dangit, not TFC. :)

[bean19]

All third party games for Nintendo flop between being ports that are best played on other systems or really poorly made titles. When we get a rare gem that is both good and best played on the nintendo console then it sells like gangbusters. This one isn't hard to figure out.

And yet the linked article goes on for ages without coming to this simple and logical conclusion. Instead, he feels that Nintendo fans are to blame for not buying games that were better on other systems, crappy movie tie-ins, or designed for a child audience. . . (wrong about that particular too - obviously Nintendo fans will buy "kiddie" games if they are high quality in gameplay).

I'd hate to have my name printed on something as illogical as this commentary. Hopefully the author of this crap will live it down and be able to continue his career without becoming infamous for this. Not that popular a site. . . . he might go unread by most people.

[TheFlyingOrc]

And yet the linked article goes on for ages without coming to this simple and logical conclusion. Instead, he feels that Nintendo fans are to blame for not buying games that were better on other systems, crappy movie tie-ins, or designed for a child audience. . . (wrong about that particular too - obviously Nintendo fans will buy "kiddie" games if they are high quality in gameplay).

I'd hate to have my name printed on something as illogical as this commentary. Hopefully the author of this crap will live it down and be able to continue his career without becoming infamous for this. Not that popular a site. . . . he might go unread by most people.

Actually, the "kiddy" games do well, because they are purchased by parents, who were told at the store that the gamecube was for kids, a nice self-fulfilling prophecy. The earlier years of the gamecube weren't so bad, but toward the end, the "Greatest Hits" section got embarassing to a cube owner.

[lockwoodx]

Nintendo fans buy:

Good Nintendo games.
Bad Nintendo games.
Quite Good 3rd Party games.

What they do NOT buy is BAD 3rd party games.




You hit the nail right on the head.


Remember back in the days of 8bit.... ALL games were considered Nintendo games, and not just for the Nintendo Entertainment System.

This is where the rabid loyalty sprang forth and these days we all sound so savoy talking between first, third, niche, indy, and JP titles....but they are all just games for the systems we love.

[Draconis]

Yeah, I remember how poorly RE4 was received and how people just blew it off as a crap because it wasn't a first party title. If only Nintendo fanboys could recognize great games like that when they are available on Nintendo consoles...

...oh wait.

Like TFC mentioned...what Nintendo fans don't accept are mediocre third-party titles that might sell better on the Playstation.


The Matter here is however, that RE4 was a well known Commodity in the Gaming Industry. RE was the first Survival Horror game ever out, and it created the genre if my memory serves me correctly. At least brought it into Mainstream Acceptance.

For a note, I am not stating my own opinion in any of these posts. I am merely stating the line of thought that Kevin himself is saying. My own opinion is completley different.

Now...My opinion is this. I see it going both ways. I can understand the vein of thought that Kevin is saying, and to an extent, I agree with it. On other portions, I disagree with it.

Nintendo IMO is doing a decent job of garnering Third Party Support. The problem is however, not Nintendo itself. Nor it's fans.

The Problem is the Developers who want to sit there, and as always, develop low risk, POS titles that tack on controls and rehash the same damned gameplay we've seen time and time again. They Don't push the Graphics capability of the Console, they slap together the control scheme, and they port it in an absolutley fricking terrible manner. (Farcry anyone?)

Nintendo is not at fault here. Nor are the Fans. This Generation, Nintendo has done a respectable job thus far of garnering IP's and Third Party Devs. The fact that Manhunt 2 is coming to the Wii is freaking HUGE news. There ARE good games in the pipeline, plain and simple.

The problem is, as I stated. Idiot Devs looking to make a quick buck and slapping together some POS port that bears no real effort on their part, and brings a bad name to the console, the fans, the company itself and all the games.

That is my personal Opinion.

[Darkkoji]

Are Nintendo Fanboys shooting themselves in their own foot? Who, where, why and when do Wii ourselves, as Nintendo Fans, Support Third Party Titles?


Make better third party games, and we'll buy them! This has all to do with the third parties themselves...Rayman Wii proved that if you make a GOOD third party game, people will respond.

[Yellowman]

I felt that sonic controlled quite a bit LIKE excite truck. The problem is the handful of places where they want you need to back up. Also, I wish you didn't have to charge your jumps - it's somewhat counter-intuitive to sonic - it should be about your reaction time, not about planning ahead.

QFT. Exactly how I felt about this game. Sonic didn't control badly it just wasn't quite right. I really hope they will get it right next time.

[ECM]

QFT. Exactly how I felt about this game. Sonic didn't control badly it just wasn't quite right. I really hope they will get it right next time.

I dunno, I found that if you give Sonic a couple of hours (to earn enough skills and unlock some of the later levels) it can be a real blast as the controls, precisions, etc. improve by leaps and bounds the more you play. The first few hours, tho, can be a bit tedious (Blur is kinda in the same camp as it takes a few hours for it to all 'click'--then it's just bloody awesome.)

[Flatpicker]

Nintendo fans buy:

Good Nintendo games.
Bad Nintendo games.
Quite Good 3rd Party games.

What they do NOT buy is BAD 3rd party games.


But, will they buy Average 3rd party games?

I don't even see why this matters. You see no matter what position a Nintendo system comes in during a console race, Nintendo makes money on the unit.
They are playing with a different set of rules over there. It's possible that they could care less about 3rd parties as the bulk of their profit comes from Miamoto and crew. Licensing fees are ok, but unlike the cart world, or even the GC smaller disk world, they are not pressing the media anymore.

[Goronmon]

I would add, however, that a 3rd-party game has to be QUITE good. Eternal Darkness did not do well, and it's pretty cool (story, at least).I loved Eternal Darkness, but I didn't realize it didn't sell that well. I consider it one of the best games on the GC, hell, one of the best games of last generation. The "breaking the fourth wall" effects such as showing the TV volume being lowered or the GC error messages were really well done and really fucked with you.

edit: It's TFO, dangit, not TFC. :)Weird, I double checked that twice. For some reason I was thinking Orc started with a 'C' I guess, haha.

[Evil Avatar]

Cassidy's article is crap. He sites one really innovative game — Dewey's Adventure, which IS kiddie even if he won't admit it — and then lists Prince of Persia: Rival Swords, The Godfather: Blackhand Edition, Scarface, and Mortal Kombat: Armageddon. Those games were mediocre at best when they came out like a year ago. If there's so many fantastic games that use the Wii to their best advantage, he should list those games, not these half-baked ports.

I think you just summed up the problem - these crappy second rate ports ARE the 3rd party support Nintendo is getting. Developers aren't willing to risk a new IP on an unproven system after the failure of the Gamecube.

I mentioned this a couple of days ago in another thread... if the Wii is so great - where are the good games for it?

(I have said the same thing about the PS3.)

Nintendo came out with a product that people obviously want - now is there even a small chance that either Nintendo or 3rd party companies are going to support it? I doubt it.

[Disgustipated]

The Matter here is however, that RE4 was a well known Commodity in the Gaming Industry. RE was the first Survival Horror game ever out, and it created the genre if my memory serves me correctly. At least brought it into Mainstream Acceptance.



Wrong. Alone In The Dark was the first true "Survival horror" game, RE was just the most popular.

[Doctor Setebos]

It doesn't help the "Nintendo is for kids" image when 3rd parties create exclusive content that looks like this (http://www.jeux-france.com/news19580_koei-annonce-opoona-sur-wii.html). :rolleyes:

And this whole "Nintendo is for kids" argument has me thinking: what would have been the reaction to a game like Viva Pinata if it had been released for the Wii instead of the 360? I can just about guarantee you that every 360 player out there addicted to VP would be railing against the game as yet another "Nintendo kiddie" title. :rolleyes:

I've been rolling my eyes a lot lately. :rolleyes:

[thecrazyd]

I think you just summed up the problem - these crappy second rate ports ARE the 3rd party support Nintendo is getting. Developers aren't willing to risk a new IP on an unproven system after the failure of the Gamecube.
Last I heard, the Gamecube was barely outsold by the Xbox. If it "failed", then so did you precious box.
I mentioned this a couple of days ago in another thread... if the Wii is so great - where are the good games for it?
Zelda, Trauma Center, Sonic, Metal Slug, and Wii Sports are all good. And those are just the ones I have played. There are plenty more in the pipeline.

[Evil Avnovice]

Yes, I'm shooting myself in the foot. I guess I'm the odd man for refusing third-party filth on the GameCube that PS2/Xbox fanboys would be desperate to pick up.

Well, what do Wii owners want then?

The same thing I've enjoyed on my GameCube and DS: Solid to excellent third-party support. For every Baten Kaitos, Trauma Center, Resident Evil 4, Elite Beat Agents or Eternal Darkness, there's games on the shelves which while they'll appeal to the younger set, are mostly tired hand-me-downs.

Can't forget the "GC doesn't support online play" excuse as well. :rolleyes:

[ECM]

Nintendo came out with a product that people obviously want - now is there even a small chance that either Nintendo or 3rd party companies are going to support it? I doubt it.

Yeah, you're right: there's every indication the Wii will follow the DS' spotty release schedule and lack of 3rd party support...

[Draconis]

Wrong. Alone In The Dark was the first true "Survival horror" game, RE was just the most popular.


Aye, which is why I worded my post the way I did. I wasn't sure RE was the first, which is why I said if my memory serves me correctly. :)

I was however, correct on it bringing the genre into Mainstream acceptance. :)

[Johan]

Nintendo fans buy:

Good Nintendo games.
Bad Nintendo games.
Quite Good 3rd Party games.

What they do NOT buy is BAD 3rd party games.

I agree with you, as lockwoodx did. Good, accurate observation...in my opinion!

[KingGorilla]

Well from the 1980's, it is not Nintendo and Third parties...it is Nintendo and WESTERN third parties. Capcom, Konami, Namco have great working relationships and sales on Nintendo consoles. But over the years Nintendo has gotten more and more and more myopic. They are also unwilling to put up the money to court exclusivity like Sony, and now Microsoft, are willing to do. Sega has been very happy with how their games have done on Nintendo products as of late, as well. And most recently, PS2 and on, Nintendo insists on custom archetecture for their games...custom discs, cartridged(that really pissed a lot of people off with the N64 and Gamecube). The Carts on the 64 and the Mini Disc on the Cube were HORRIBLE decisions. Where Sony(and later Microsoft) were willing to use more standardized, almost off the shelf PC archetecture and CD-DVDs.
And as a consequence, Nintendo really created this rift-hardcore nintendo fans(the Zelda, mario, Metroid fans)...and little kids-Mario Party, Pokemon, etc. With most of their money going to that small group of hardcore fans(5 million or so of their total consumerbase). But most of their Gen X and other older fans, moved on to Xbox, PS, or PC for most of their gaming needs. I think most os us fall into the latter, our Wii is a "Zelda Box." and we are now waiting for Smash Bros or Paper Mario to come out...but we will be playing GRAW2, God of War 2, or C and C 3 until that happens.

[TheFlyingOrc]

I dunno, I found that if you give Sonic a couple of hours (to earn enough skills and unlock some of the later levels) it can be a real blast as the controls, precisions, etc. improve by leaps and bounds the more you play. The first few hours, tho, can be a bit tedious (Blur is kinda in the same camp as it takes a few hours for it to all 'click'--then it's just bloody awesome.)

I think switching to a system where you jump immediately, and hold down the button for longer jumps, would improve the game immensely.

Also, you gain a lot more control once you realize you can jump cancel to come to a dead stop any time you want.

[Draconis]

Personally, I myself am a Gamer period. I play what has good games. And if a system screws up in some manner, whether it be Nintendo, ***, or $ony, I will be just as likley to bash their skulls in regardless for boneheaded maneuvers.

Nintendo has done some excellent things right, and so far they have eaten up over half of Microsofts Market Share by the end of this month most likley.

If anything, the only complaint I have is that they are not getting online up and fast enough. Plain and simple.

As for Games and Third Party games? Right now, I think Nintendo is doing Ok. Could be better, but they are doing Ok. I have 10 Wii games right now if that tells you anything. Compare that to my 0 PS3 Games and 3 Xbox 360 Games, and it becomes a Stark Contrast.

[TheFlyingOrc]

But, will they buy Average 3rd party games?


Sometimes, sometimes not. Really depends on the competition level from current Nintendo products and marketing. If there isn't a Nintendo game competing for your $$$ at that time, and if it's well marketed, it CAN happen.

One of the biggest problems I had this past generation as a cube owner was that Blockbuster had no idea what they were doing with the gamecube. Mainline Nintendo titles, they would buy 9, 10 copies - this is foolish, nobody RENTS Nintendo key franchises, they BUY them (as virtually no casuals owned a gamecube). Then they filled the rest of the shelves with kid-themed shovelware. Some of the best "under the radar" games never even showed up at Blockbuster - I really wanted to play Sega Soccer Slam when it came out, but they never got a copy. :(

[Podfork]

The Wii hardware is a magnet for PS2/XBOX ports and revamps (old engine w/ new levels, etc). That's the double edged sword of the Wii's design - it attracts publishers that can squeeze some juice out of a last gen game (so it should attract more support...), but won't appeal much to developers best and brightest ideas (....just not good support). No one is going to want to build a gaming revolution, or even a new gaming engine, on outdated tech.

I firmly believe that, by bringing Zelda:TP and taking Super Paper Mario off GC and onto Wii Nintendo are going to reap short-term success but have sent out a damaging long term message to everyone:

"Hey, if it's ok for Nintendo to port their previous-gen games to Wii then it's sure as hell good enough for us to do the same"

No publisher interested in staying in business is going to ignore the message set by Nintendo's actions. Ultimately, I think it's not the smartest of moves in the long term.

Also, in regards of comments on the strength of the DS's library - it's turning to rot before our eyes. Already Nicktoon-kart / Shrek-platformer / me-too-IQ-training bilge is filling up the catalogue. Do yourself a favour and check the entire global DS release list - I won't deny there are quality titles out there but they're being swamped by the kind of crap that fed the GBA, GBC and GB by a ratio of 5:1. The DS, like it's predecessors will be a victim of it's own success and Nintendo won't need to change anything because, despite their misleading 'Seal of Quality' emblem, they'll be raking it in from licence fees. It's win / win for Nintendo so they're not going to rock the boat. Oh, and please, whilst it may be tempting, PSP library comparisons are not relevent to the topic.

Furthermore, anyone saying Nintendo fans are blameless for the perception of Nintendo's 'maturity' or public image need only cast their mind back to Gamespot's 8.8 (and 8.9 for Gamecube) review of Zelda:TP and the hysterical reaction that followed - mainly from zealots who, of course, hadn't even played the game at the time.

I personally think the hardcore fanboys (not just Nintendo ones) are not doing anything but damaging the situation. Short term fun (writing "best game ever" reviews for Amazon listings of unreleased gamers etc) just drives more and more nails in the coffin.

I also tend to believe that gamers as a whole have a tendency to complain too much and too quickly. But that's a different kettle of fish.

[TheFlyingOrc]

As for Games and Third Party games? Right now, I think Nintendo is doing Ok. Could be better, but they are doing Ok. I have 10 Wii games right now if that tells you anything. Compare that to my 0 PS3 Games and 3 Xbox 360 Games, and it becomes a Stark Contrast.
Yeah, I don't see the huge problem people are having with games - at the B level of games, there's Trauma Center, Rayman, WarioWare, Sonic, SSX Blur, Elebits, Excite Truck. All of these are pretty good.

The FPS efforts thus far have been lacking, though - hopefully, MP3 will show developers how to make a good FPS, and we'll get some by the end of '08.

[score]

I firmly believe that, by bringing Zelda:TP and taking Super Paper Mario off GC and onto Wii Nintendo are going to reap short-term success but have sent out a damaging long term message to everyone:

"Hey, if it's ok for Nintendo to port their previous-gen games to Wii then it's sure as hell good enough for us to do the same"

I disagree. Had these games been released previous gen then you would have a point but these are new never before released games.

Also, to the guys article. It's like he's complaining because we won't buy turds. Why does he want us to buy turds? Surely that would send out a message to game devs that we like turds which would only lead them to publish more turds?

[Doctor Setebos]

The FPS efforts thus far have been lacking, though - hopefully, MP3 will show developers how to make a good FPS, and we'll get some by the end of '08.Before that hits, I'm hoping that Medal of Honor (http://www.gamespot.com/wii/action/medalofhonorvanguard/index.html) will be able to show us all the way. :D

[Achilles]

I'll heavily disagree with this. Nintendo has made it quite clear that they are doing almost everything to support third parties. Even if that support has been coming slow (Net kits), it is there.Nintendo is supporting 3rd parties better than they have in the past but their level of support is still nowhere near that of Microsoft. Their hardware has a lot of odd quirks and restrictions which cater to the kinds of games that Nintendo makes, but really restricts how much anyone else can successfuly depart from the Nintendo look and feel. They also don't have dev support personell as far as I know. 3rd parties on MS or Sony's platform have access to all the same hardware features as 1st party (online is a good example), and have more access to the hardware in general. This isn't the case on Nintendo platforms.

So I disaree with you on that one. It's better on the Wii than it has been in the past; they finally started making tools for 3rd party use rather than leaving it up to them to find tools for really important stuff like PC emulation.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Their hardware has a lot of odd quirks and restrictions which cater to the kinds of games that Nintendo makes, but really restricts how much anyone else can successfuly depart from the Nintendo look and feel.

BULLCRAP. Look and feel is flexible and dependant on your Art Design department, not your hardware. Heck, Mario, Zelda, and Metroid all have radically different looks to them.

[mouseclicked]

Nintendo fans only hurt Nintendo when you deem mediocre and crappy 3rd party games as acceptable. With Nintendo's games to compete with for our dollar, unless your game is REALLY good, we're probably going to go with Nintendo. Unfortunately, most 3rd party titles seem to be crap, and since people buy them on other consoles, the 3rd parties get used to half-assed games selling. Then Nintendo winds up with the blame for 3rd party games underselling on Nintendo systems. As if somehow your games being too good isn't a ridiculous criticism, but there you have it.

You'll notice the really good party games do sell rather well on Nintendo's console (or if they don't, it's not something unique to the Nintendo console version, ala Beyond Good and Evil). If games like Dead Rising or Lost Planet were released on the Wii, I'm sure they'd sell just fine.

3rd parties really just to need to step up and stop making such mediocre games. But it's too easy to just release them on the PS2/3 or XBox/360 where they don't have much sustained quality competition to deal with. Although that's turning around with Sony's in-house games, and if Microsoft would get off the Halo bandwagon and put Bungie to work at some other games, as well as incorporating some of their other developers, too, they could be in the same position. Really, it's a no-lose situation if this happens, because all 3 consoles would have consistent, quality 1st and 2nd party titles and the mediocre 3rd parties would have nowhere to hide.

-Moses

[TheFlyingOrc]

Actual, with the increased focus on casuals, it's very possible that this will change - Gamecube was pretty much only owned by the hardcore and children - if casuals buy it, things will be very different.

Also, the worst mistake Nintendo make recently was making the gamecube purple. I didn't care, but why release a purple console to our homophobic society?

[mouseclicked]

Hey, it wasn't purple it was inidigo. ;)

-Moses

[TheFlyingOrc]

Hey, it wasn't purple it was inidigo. ;)

-Moses

I bought the "indigo" one. I was OK with it. For the frat-boy halo audience, "indigo" is not an acceptabel color.

[RMan]

Their hardware has a lot of odd quirks and restrictions which cater to the kinds of games that Nintendo makes, but really restricts how much anyone else can successfuly depart from the Nintendo look and feel.
Microsoft’s hardware causes dementia and their development teams constantly take part in strange rituals involving road-kill and used popsicle sticks (hey, as long as we’re making silly statements we have no intention on supporting :)).
They also don't have dev support personell as far as I know.
Now that you mention it, I’ve also never seen their bathrooms (perhaps that’s because I’ve never been in their house… Nah, that can’t be it).
3rd parties on MS or Sony's platform have access to all the same hardware features as 1st party (online is a good example), and have more access to the hardware in general. This isn't the case on Nintendo platforms.
Why don’t you elaborate beyond online so we can fully understand what you’re saying.

[Royal Fool]

Actual, with the increased focus on casuals, it's very possible that this will change - Gamecube was pretty much only owned by the hardcore and children - if casuals buy it, things will be very different.

Also, the worst mistake Nintendo make recently was making the gamecube purple. I didn't care, but why release a purple console to our homophobic society?
It wouldn't have been so bad if the purple (sorry, indigo) one hadn't been used prominently in all the advertising material and for the logo. They did release a black unit as well, it just didn't get the same attention in the media (which was a silly mistake on Nintendo's part).

[Craigtheplague]

From the article
Still, they write on message boards that the game doesn't appeal to them at all because it lacks "mature" themes, yet many of the people leaving these comments aren't even old enough to purchase Mature-rated games.
Ha! It seems like this guy has been perusing the gamefaqs message boards.

It's quite simple and I'm preaching to the choir. The games don't sell well because they are crap. A third party can sell half-assed games for ps2 because you can't go wrong with a user base of 100 million. Somebody has got to buy its game. And also, they shouldn't release at the same time as an FF, MGS, or GTA game. Third parties: To make great games you need to open up your minds, not your wallets!

[Nessus]

No one seems to be mentioning how Nintendo appears to be changing its attitude towards third parties. Nintendo has only released 4 games (out of what? 40?) for Wii so far, to give third party titles a chance to sell. It seems to have worked somewhat.

Red Steel is the second best selling game on the system (not that it deserves to be, I really hope they put more effort into the sequel) and Trauma Center: Second Opinion is one of Atlus' better selling games.

As for good third party games built from the ground up, well, Elebits is amazing. Has a very Katamari Damacy feel to it. Trauma Center is really good. Sonic, yeah could have been better, but I think there's a foundation there they can work on so that the sequel is a genuinely great game. Rayman is really good (which is why I can forgive Ubi Soft's ports; they had 2 original built from the ground up Wii games there at launch, no other third party can make that claim).

[Achilles]

BULLCRAP. Look and feel is flexible and dependant on your Art Design department, not your hardware. Heck, Mario, Zelda, and Metroid all have radically different looks to them.When the hardware punches up the color values so you can't give your game a desaturated or realistic look it becomes less flexible. All 3 games you mentioned are very colorful, they may look different, though I'd argue how different they actually look, but none of them look like Gears, GRAW, or something like that.

There are many other art related features that are restricted on Nintendo platforms including how they can use the frame buffer or other hardware features to modify the image before they output it to the screen. Common art tricks on the PS2 and Xbox use these features to get the desired look from their game, on the Game Cube and Wii they’re locked out or restricted. It may be a shock, but to get a certain look on a game system it actually takes interacting with the hardware, not just some amorphous concept of art design.Now that you mention it, I’ve also never seen their bathrooms (perhaps that’s because I’ve never been in their house… Nah, that can’t be it).

Why don’t you elaborate beyond online so we can fully understand what you’re saying.On your first paragraph, MS has dev support for 3rd parties that will go in and debug problems for them or even rewrite parts of their engine for them, especially for important projects. Nintendo doesn't have this, that's what I'm talking about. I’m sure they have internal dev support for their own teams.

On your second paragraph I'll provide a couple examples. Nintendo is able to read GBA carts from a DS cart. And they allow their first party GBA games to know that they’re running on the DS. They don’t allow 3rd parties to do these things. We also know that presently Nintendo won’t allow 3rd parties to use the Miis in their games, and they won't this year allow 3rd parties to have online gaming on the Wii, so that’s another couple feature that are only for Nintendo.

[alleycatsphinx]

Developers don't generally choose to make ports, they're paid to do it. They have (or usually) are handed the latest version of product X for the ps2 and told to make it run on the wii, and, uh, be more wii-like. Wiification. This is tough because the wii doesn't have enough buttons (etc etc). A NEW game would be much easier to design rather than retrofitting an old one - its just MUCH harder and more expensive to make the rest of the game - so you get ports and design suffers.

When publishers are willing to dump tons of money in developing fully staffed Nintendo titles you'll see great third party titles instead of ports.

When Nintendo has a position that looks like sure profitability to publishers they will spend lots of money on good wii games. Until then expect ps2 ports.

[Craigtheplague]

Actual, with the increased focus on casuals, it's very possible that this will change - Gamecube was pretty much only owned by the hardcore and children - if casuals buy it, things will be very different.

Also, the worst mistake Nintendo make recently was making the gamecube purple. I didn't care, but why release a purple console to our homophobic society?

Can we justify blaming a color choice for Gamecube's (not failure!) lack of expected sales? On one hand it seems ridiculous, but on the other hand the ipod's white made it a trend symbol.

[Doctor Setebos]

We also know that presently Nintendo won’t allow 3rd parties to use the Miis in their games, and they won't this year allow 3rd parties to have online gaming on the Wii, so that’s another couple feature that are only for Nintendo.Huh. Funny. It took me all of ten second to find a 3rd-party game that does both (http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3157812).

I like how you speak with such authority, but really have no idea what you're talking about. It's kinda cute. :D

[Achilles]

Huh. Funny. It took me all of ten second to find a 3rd-party game that does both (http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3157812).

I like how you speak with such authority, but really have no idea what you're talking about. It's kinda cute. :DI didn't see this game, probably because it's a pachinko japan-only game. Apparently EA is having a problem with Nintendo's cooperation as are we. Let's see how many 3rd party games that use Miis and/or WiFi ship in the US this year. I speak to what I know and have to deal with, sure maybe I'm wrong, I don't know what every company's arrangement with Nintendo is, but I'm presently making Wii games so I'm not exactly uninformed.

Edit: Also that pachinko game doesn't seem to use the Miis in the actual game, just their portraits on what looks like the level select menu. Here's Segas site with some more screenshots: http://www.sega.co.jp/wii/pphokuto/
Interesting.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Can we justify blaming a color choice for Gamecube's (not failure!) lack of expected sales? On one hand it seems ridiculous, but on the other hand the ipod's white made it a trend symbol.

Not entirely, probably not even a ROOT cause, I just think it was amazingly bone-headed. I heard many people say before launch "I'd get one...but it's purple"

[TheFlyingOrc]

When the hardware punches up the color values so you can't give your game a desaturated or realistic look it becomes less flexible. All 3 games you mentioned are very colorful, they may look different, though I'd argue how different they actually look, but none of them look like Gears, GRAW, or something like that.


Twilight Princess actually has a VERY similar color scheme to what I've seen from Gears when you're in the twilight realm. MP2 had a very unique color scheme that I freaking hated. RE4 was the best-looking title out last gen.

Also, "punches up the color values"? What does that even MEAN?

[RMan]

When the hardware punches up the color values so you can't give your game a desaturated or realistic look it becomes less flexible.

There are many other art related features that are restricted on Nintendo platforms including how they can use the frame buffer or other hardware features to modify the image before they output it to the screen.
None of this relates to your original comment, which was that the hardware restricts games to Nintendo’s style. These are simply hardware limitations, and yea, we know that the hardware doesn’t allow the more realistic visuals of the PS3/360. It’s not like they force models to have cartoon proportions or something, clearly RE4 looks realistic and doesn’t have a Nintendo visual style. Try again and stick to the point, or rephrase your original post to something that makes sense.
On your second paragraph I'll provide a couple examples. Nintendo is able to read GBA carts from a DS cart. And they allow their first party GBA games to know that they’re running on the DS. They don’t allow 3rd parties to do these things. We also know that presently Nintendo won’t allow 3rd parties to use the Miis in their games, and they won't this year allow 3rd parties to have online gaming on the Wii, so that’s another couple feature that are only for Nintendo.
I’m sure many of their features are tested before they’re released. There’s no indication of a restriction on these technologies beyond wanting to get good tools in place. MS has the advantage of the bulk of their technologies being transferred from the PC so they already have the tools in place, and MS doesn’t seem to mind releasing relatively unfinished products. The fault would be Nintendo’s if they were ‘holding back’ these technologies as you suggest, but they are not, they’re simply finishing them. As stated many times before, MS, Sony, and Nintendo all have different resources and ways to exploit them, but there is no evidence of this near conspiracy against 3rd parties you suggest, you just keep faulting them basically because they aren’t spawned from PC hardware/software and carrying all those advantages or have precisely the same philosophies as MS.

It’s quite telling, though, that the best example that you can come up with is the GBA thing, a feature that’s likely required so little that they just didn’t bother making it a part of the SDK (and it also may introduce hard to navigate bugs). I’m sure there are many things that all three companies develop that don’t make it into the SDK for one reason or another but are used by first parties (if you understand the process, you’ll realize that first party developers are the SDK testers so these types of things are inevitable to a degree).

[Achilles]

I’m sure many of their features are tested before they’re released. There’s no indication of a restriction on these technologies beyond wanting to get good tools in place.Dude, they still don't have a Nintendo solution to PC emulation for GBA, how long do they need to take to test their tools. It's not like it's a minor feature, it's really freakn' important. But if you don't want to see that Nintendo isn't helping us out than fine, I've been in this argument too many times to care anymore. Nintendo fans will cling to anything to believe that their favorite hardware manufacturer is perfect and fair in all things. Twilight Princess actually has a VERY similar color scheme to what I've seen from Gears when you're in the twilight realm. MP2 had a very unique color scheme that I freaking hated. RE4 was the best-looking title out last gen.

Also, "punches up the color values"? What does that even MEAN?Same as the above. I could explain it to you, you wouldn't believe me and it would go around and around. Thanks for providing examples though, I'll have to check those out to see if they really got around it and how, or if they're just using blacks, whites and that kind of thing to get around not being able to desaturate the color.

[Doctor Setebos]

Dude, they still don't have a Nintendo solution to PC emulation for GBA, how long do they need to take to test their tools. It's not like it's a minor feature, it's really freakn' important. But if you don't want to see that Nintendo isn't helping us out than fine, I've been in this argument too many times to care anymore.You keep saying "us" and "we" -- are you a developer on Nintendo platforms? Because if you are, I would obviously take what you're saying with much more authority. As it is, it sounds like you're speaking like a developer, as though you know what it's like to develop on a Nintendo system.

EDIT: and that question wasn't meant to be an underhanded dig, I'm really honestly asking if you're a developer. :D

[RMan]

Dude, they still don't have a Nintendo solution to PC emulation for GBA, how long do they need to take to test their tools.
Dude, so you’re saying they suck because they aren’t actively making emulation tools for an obsolete system on a competitor’s platform? Clearly your problem with Nintendo is it’s products aren’t invariably tied to a MS product. Your complaint sounds as logical as bitching that DirectX still doesn’t run on Linux.

[Achilles]

You keep saying "us" and "we" -- are you a developer on Nintendo platforms? Because if you are, I would obviously take what you're saying with much more authority. As it is, it sounds like you're speaking like a developer, as though you know what it's like to develop on a Nintendo system.

EDIT: and that question wasn't meant to be an underhanded dig, I'm really honestly asking if you're a developer. :DYep I've worked on GBA, DS and Wii. Sorry to get all 'whatever I give up' on you, I just really have had this argument every time I bring up anything I don't like about Nintendo's hardware, it's like wading into a tar pit.

So you can desaturate the textures, which will work to an extent, but it'll still punch up (make more vibrant) the colors that are there (RE4 is my refference for this) so it'll never get the same desaturated look as Gears. Also you can overbrighten; adding white to everything till it's all washed out, but that's not desaturation either. It's actually really hard to explain.

[Achilles]

Dude, so you’re saying they suck because they aren’t actively making emulation tools for an obsolete system on a competitor’s platform? Clearly your problem with Nintendo is it’s products aren’t invariably tied to a MS product. Your complaint sounds as logical as bitching that DirectX still doesn’t run on Linux.Um, so what development platform do you suggest I should use if I was going to go out and make a GBA game. You realize that it compiles on the PC right? The code is written on the PC, not on the GBA dev kit itself. You could pobably compile and write code on Linux as well, but I doubt they have an emulation solution for Linux either.

I also like that when the product is new the tools are still in testing so we shouldn't have access to them, but after it's been out a while it's now obsolete so there's no reason they should give us tools for it. It's like an excuse loop.

[RMan]

Um, so what development platform do you suggest I should use if I was going to go out and make a GBA game. You realize that it compiles on the PC right? The code is written on the PC, not on the GBA dev kit itself.
I haven’t developed for the GBA, but have developed for other, non-PC devices, and all of it was done from a PC. It’s extraordinarily uncommon to have PC emulation of the device, and most certainly not expected or needed. The only way emulation would help is if the process of copying the compiled data to the system is prohibitively slow, so please post your average transfer times for this wealth of GBA titles you’ve developed so we can see how necessary this emulation would be :). Now, if you’re talking about emulation as well as integrated debugging, that’s a different story, but the bottom line is that emulation alone would only introduce another level of compliance bugs and wouldn’t do anything but cut down on data transfer times. You’re acting as if they couldn’t develop games or something, and related to the point at hand, I’ve never heard an indication that 1st party developers are using or emulation tools 3rd parties don’t have.
I also like that when the product is new the tools are still in testing so we shouldn't have access to them, but after it's been out a while it's now obsolete so there's no reason they should give us tools for it. It's like an excuse loop.
Hehe, are we talking about the one tool you think they should have, or the one function not included in the SDK? Again, your comments just continually exhibit a narrow “MS or nothing” view of development/gaming.

[mouseclicked]

I bought the purple one by choice, too, but it'd be stupid to say it wasn't a mistake on Nintendo's part to market it. That implies design has nothing to do with marketing, and there are quite a few people who would disagree with that. In fact, there jobs depend on it.

-Moses

[Achilles]

Hehe, are we talking about the one tool you think they should have, or the one function not included in the SDK? Again, your comments just continually exhibit a narrow “MS or nothing” view of development/gaming.Well actually all I'm saying is that MS has better 3rd party support, and I guess you disagree? I think it would be great if Nintendo included a tool, yeah, since it's something that 3rd parties need anyway, they just use a 3rd party solution.

Edit: To add to my previous response to Dr. Setebos; I've also worked on Xbox, PS2, 360 and PSP. Though I've spent next to no time with the 360.

[alleycatsphinx]

This place needs to have an "I'm a developer" tag. What happened to that?

[RMan]

Well actually all I'm saying is that MS has better 3rd party support, and I guess you disagree?
Nope, I agree with that, what I disagree with is that it's the result of effort or some kind of anti-3rd party philosophy. MS's 3rd party efforts yield greater gains because it’s based off the PC, which is a primary development platform. MS could put half the effort into supporting developers as Nintendo and still look twice as good because of what they already have in place (not to mention they’re effectively promoting two platforms, not one). You could also say that Nintendo takes their VC far more seriously than MS’s live arcade if you just compare the volume and quality of their releases. Of course, if you actually understand where they come from, you’d see that Nintendo simply has tons of games they can release easily, so in this area Nintendo could do half the work as MS and look twice as good.

[KingGorilla]

Not one fucking person quoted my brilliant post on page three? You guys are dicks.

[Blue]

Well from the 1980's, it is not Nintendo and Third parties...it is Nintendo and WESTERN third parties. Capcom, Konami, Namco have great working relationships and sales on Nintendo consoles. But over the years Nintendo has gotten more and more and more myopic. They are also unwilling to put up the money to court exclusivity like Sony, and now Microsoft, are willing to do. Sega has been very happy with how their games have done on Nintendo products as of late, as well. And most recently, PS2 and on, Nintendo insists on custom archetecture for their games...custom discs, cartridged(that really pissed a lot of people off with the N64 and Gamecube). The Carts on the 64 and the Mini Disc on the Cube were HORRIBLE decisions. Where Sony(and later Microsoft) were willing to use more standardized, almost off the shelf PC archetecture and CD-DVDs.
And as a consequence, Nintendo really created this rift-hardcore nintendo fans(the Zelda, mario, Metroid fans)...and little kids-Mario Party, Pokemon, etc. With most of their money going to that small group of hardcore fans(5 million or so of their total consumerbase). But most of their Gen X and other older fans, moved on to Xbox, PS, or PC for most of their gaming needs. I think most os us fall into the latter, our Wii is a "Zelda Box." and we are now waiting for Smash Bros or Paper Mario to come out...but we will be playing GRAW2, God of War 2, or C and C 3 until that happens.

I would have just made it a quote, but character length and all that.

[Achilles]

Well from the 1980's, it is not Nintendo and Third parties...it is Nintendo and WESTERN third parties. Capcom, Konami, Namco have great working relationships and sales on Nintendo consoles. But over the years Nintendo has gotten more and more and more myopic. They are also unwilling to put up the money to court exclusivity like Sony, and now Microsoft, are willing to do. Sega has been very happy with how their games have done on Nintendo products as of late, as well. And most recently, PS2 and on, Nintendo insists on custom archetecture for their games...custom discs, cartridged(that really pissed a lot of people off with the N64 and Gamecube). The Carts on the 64 and the Mini Disc on the Cube were HORRIBLE decisions. Where Sony(and later Microsoft) were willing to use more standardized, almost off the shelf PC archetecture and CD-DVDs.
And as a consequence, Nintendo really created this rift-hardcore nintendo fans(the Zelda, mario, Metroid fans)...and little kids-Mario Party, Pokemon, etc. With most of their money going to that small group of hardcore fans(5 million or so of their total consumerbase). But most of their Gen X and other older fans, moved on to Xbox, PS, or PC for most of their gaming needs. I think most os us fall into the latter, our Wii is a "Zelda Box." and we are now waiting for Smash Bros or Paper Mario to come out...but we will be playing GRAW2, God of War 2, or C and C 3 until that happens.This one? It's one huge solid brick of terror. Learn 2 Paragraph.

Interesting statement though. Honestly I skipped it because it was too difficult to read being so dense. As the Gearsmith might say "lej1b1l17y 1st d00d."

[Royal Fool]

Nintendo is able to read GBA carts from a DS cart. And they allow their first party GBA games to know that they’re running on the DS. They don’t allow 3rd parties to do these things.
Hmm, interesting. I'm not very much into the GBA scene anymore, but what games are able to detect that they run on a DS? And what exactly are the benefits? I can't think of very much apart from possibly using the system's internal clock or date features, or maybe possibly using the native DS sleep feature?

And don't mind RMan, it looks like he's exactly the sort of person that the original article is describing.

This place needs to have an "I'm a developer" tag. What happened to that?
It's more up to their own discretion. We know of a few that post regularly or semi-regularly and others that have all but disappeared.

[RMan]

And don't mind RMan, it looks like he's exactly the sort of person that the original article is describing.
Hehe, what tipped you off, the fact that I don't own a Gamecube, or was it the fact that I'm no particular fan of Nintendo franchises, or was it the not asking for mature titles or exhibiting ANY of the behavior he discusses? Heck, it’s hard to even call me a Nintendo fan, I like the DS and the Wii, this is the first time I’ve felt Nintendo is working in line with what I want in a LONG time (which is why I support them). And your complete lack of trying to dispute the logic of my posts is noted.

As far as having ‘I’m a developer’ tag, I don’t think that would be useful, if a poster can’t support their position through logic then they don’t deserve their credentials (it’s like a self-rating system). We’ve got enough people in the world not thinking for themselves, we don’t need to promote it.

[bitwise]

But speaking of kiddie games, Little Big Planet or Viva Pinata anyone?

It's sort of ironic that many consider LittleBigPlanet to be the killer app the PS3 has been waiting for.

He's saying it's the people who buy the Wii, and that's true - you buy a Nintendo console to play Nintendo games. Still, a bigger issue for the Wii, long term, is hardware.

Although it has weaker hardware than the 360 or PS3, it is not as weak as people say it is. The bigger problem is that some developers are taking a tenuous approach to the Wii based on what happened with the GC. At the same time, Nintendo seems to be much more willing to support 3rd party developers than they ever were in the past.

But if it comes to any other title, that might be remotely along those lines from other Companies, they are quick to jump on it and tear the flesh from it's bones because it is not Zelda/Mario/etc....

Doesn't matter if it's a good game. It's not Nintendo. That's the point Kevin is making as well.

There is definitely some truth to this. At the same time, you have to ask yourself whether it's due to an elitism on the part of Nintendo system owners or if it's for other reasons. It's sort of a chicken and egg thing. If publishers don't put worthwhile stuff on the system, people aren't going to buy it. If people don't buy, publishers will devote less resources to the system. I disagree that there is a systematic disdain for non-Nintendo titles among Nintendo fans (although there will always be rabid fanboys). I think it's more accurate to say that since Nintendo regularly puts out AAA titles, it's a bit harder for other publishers to compete with mere AA or A (or even shovelware) games.

In order to compete, they must also put out AAA titles, which means more resources which means less overall games. From what I've seen, Nintendo has been doing a lot to lower the cost to 3rd party developers with middleware and internal support, so this effect probably won't be as large this generation. Nintendo is certainly doing more than they ever did in the past. Also, if history is any indication, bad games don't sell well on any system. The PS2 and XBox had much larger game libraries than the Gamecube, but I see a much higher proportion of those libraries in the bargain bin at my local game shop.

I consider myself a Nintendo fan. Please note that I'm a fan of the artistry that comes out of Nintendo as opposed to the company, and that being a Nintendo fan doesn't mean I disdain Microsoft and Sony (although Sony has been trying really hard to earn it for the past year). I find that I'm looking forward much more to the 3rd party titles for the Wii than 1st party Nintendo titles. Of course I want Mario Galaxy, Brawl, Metroid Prime 3 and Super Paper Mario, but I'm looking forward to No More Heroes, Day of Disaster and Dewy's Adventure with much more anticipation, and I suspect that most Wii owners feel that way too. There is a very good chance I'll plunk down cash for those games when they come out.

Also (and this is just my opinion), 3rd parties seem to be really bad at coming up with new franchises. If there's even a remote chance the mascot for a new game would be considered cartoony or cute looking, American publishers and developers will try to give them an extreme image. Shades, goatees, muscles, the sorts of thing that would have more appeal to a 14 year old but which winds up looking stupid and silly to me. Sometimes even borderline insulting. At least Nintendo goes all the way and lets their cute characters be cute without saddling them with an intricate and painful backstory.

[Achilles]

Hmm, interesting. I'm not very much into the GBA scene anymore, but what games are able to detect that they run on a DS? And what exactly are the benefits? I can't think of very much apart from possibly using the system's internal clock or date features, or maybe possibly using the native DS sleep feature?I believe there was a pokemon DS game that allowed you to unlock pokemon using information from the GBA cart, but last I heard it was only out in Japan.

The detection for running on a DS thing has a couple obvious perks. The first is that you could correct for the brightness of the newer screens, since GBA screens are criminally dark, and the screens on the original GBA:SP are still not as bright as even the original DS screen. Right now we pump up the brightness on the actual assets to compensate for the dark screen, but when you look at it on a bright screen it looks day-glow.

There is also the sleep feature which could be a cute addition. One of the Nintendo games out recently for GBA played a sound when it went into sleep mode. So basically just polish stuff, but it's that kind of stuff that makes Nintendo games seem more polished than 3rd party games. I'm not sure if the GBA cart would have the ability to access the second screen, but that would obviously be a rather large boon if it were possible, even more so than accessing the date or time. Hehe, what tipped you off, the fact that I don't own a Gamecube, or was it the fact that I'm no particular fan of Nintendo franchises, or was it the not asking for mature titles or exhibiting ANY of the behavior he discusses? Heck, it’s hard to even call me a Nintendo fan, I like the DS and the Wii, this is the first time I’ve felt Nintendo is working in line with what I want in a LONG time (which is why I support them). And your complete lack of trying to dispute the logic of my posts is noted.I think that maybe the fact you haven’t owned any of their console hardware for the last 10 years may be linked to you defending them so ardently. :p (unless you finally managed to pick up a Wii that is, in which case congrats and I'd be curious what your favorite game for it is.)

[Zeal]

Why do Nintendo fans continually deny the fact that there's no third-party support. The N64 suffered from this problem, it practically killed the Gamecube, and now the same thing is beginning to happen with the Wii.

Nothing is gonna change.

[Skyelan]

Why do Nintendo fans continually deny the fact that there's no third-party support. The N64 suffered from this problem, it practically killed the Gamecube, and now the same thing is beginning to happen with the Wii.

Nothing is gonna change.

Because the third party support for the Wii is continuing to increase and more games are being announced as time goes by?

But why let a little thing like reality get in the way? Carry on! :p

[KingGorilla]

Because the third party support for the Wii is continuing to increase and more games are being announced as time goes by?

But why let a little thing like reality get in the way? Carry on! :p
So you are happy to play PSP ports or PS2 games on your Wii?

[Skyelan]

So you are happy to play PSP ports or PS2 games on your Wii?

No one said that. As market share grows, developers can't turn a blind eye to market share. That's the way third parties work.

Not to mention the fact that like it or not, systems with large libraries ARE mostly crap. The PS2 was the same way. Size of library exists purely for appealing to potential consumers, because when you get down to it, only a couple hundred games on a system with thousands are gonna be worth your time.

Also, we are slowly but surely seeing an influx of third party games built from the ground up, even if we have some ports to get through. For better or worse, within the past week (I believe it's only been a week since GDC, probably wrong) we find out that Igarashi is heading a new project for the Wii, Suda has two more games after NMH, and Namco is putting out a new (If not absolutely fucking bizarre) RPG. We can't call if they're good or bad yet, but this is a case of effort being put into games.

Do I think the support will pass up the 360? Of course not. But it's already far better than both the N64 and Gamecube. Let's not forget that it was pretty much only Nintendo and Rare who kept the N64 alive. Third parties wouldn't touch it with a very long stick.

If the consumer base continues to grow, yes, we'll see more games. That's the way the industry works, not some horrible primal fear of a certain company so third parties are gonna shy away no matter how many it's sold. ;)

[RMan]

I think that maybe the fact you haven’t owned any of their console hardware for the last 10 years may be linked to you defending them so ardently. :p
Read my post again, I said Gamecube. It’s an odd statement, though, exactly what purchase history would be good to you? I avoided the system people here bash all the time because I found it uninteresting and THAT makes my support suspect?
(unless you finally managed to pick up a Wii that is, in which case congrats and I'd be curious what your favorite game for it is.)
Nope, not yet. Haven’t called this week though, kinda got frustrated (think I’ll call tomorrow though).

[Achilles]

Read my post again, I said Gamecube. It’s an odd statement, though, exactly what purchase history would be good to you? I avoided the system people here bash all the time because I found it uninteresting and THAT makes my support suspect?

Nope, not yet. Haven’t called this week though, kinda got frustrated (think I’ll call tomorrow though).Everything makes your support suspect! You're just suspicious by nature… I was joking. You didn't own a Game Cube because it didn't interest you, the Wii does interest you and you don't own that either. So your dog in the hunt is more of a philosophical/theoretical dog.

Come to think of it, I don't really make jokes that often, so I can see why you were confused. I'm feeling a little giddy after grinding the Danish to dust and securing a perfect alliance with the HRE. Never mind me.

[blackzc]

Of course, thats why i dont mind if nintendo makes cheap underpowered stuff, all i care about are the nintendo games. Screw going out of business trying to keep up with MS and sony. They made money with the GC and they are making money with the Wii,

Whats the problem again?

[RMan]

...the Wii does interest you and you don't own that either.
Yep, at least I have company in that respect. As soon as they are readily available, one will be mine, as it appears I'm not lucky enough to get one before that.
Come to think of it, I don't really make jokes that often, so I can see why you were confused. I'm feeling a little giddy after grinding the Danish to dust and securing a perfect alliance with the HRE. Never mind me.
Yea, it didn't strike me as a joke. However, now I'm currious, what game are you talking about there?

[Achilles]

Yep, at least I have company in that respect. As soon as they are readily available, one will be mine, as it appears I'm not lucky enough to get one before that.

Yea, it didn't strike me as a joke. However, now I'm currious, what game are you talking about there?Medieval Total War 2. It’s a great game, and since I left my PS2 memory card at work I can’t play God of War 2 tonight. I’m on my 3rd long campaign, this time as the English. In fact I just got Sherwood Archers, which are pretty clearly Robin Hood’s men and the best archers in the game. The HRE would be the Holy Roman Empire, I bailed them out of their war with Milan, Denmark and Poland, gave them territory and finally managed to secure military access treaties with them which seems to be very hard to do. My goal is to kill any unlockable faction, and since the HRE is one of the starting factions I figured I might as well use them to protect my southern front.

[Zeal]

Deluded...

[RMan]

Medieval Total War 2.
Yea, I was interested in it, but I'd hoped they'd add some smaller scale campaigns, Rome was too large in scale, and I hated the freeform movement on the strategic map. Just overall took way too long to play the game and got tedious (Civ4 with a normal map is the limit of what I’ll take as far as tedium). Loved the systems besides that though.

[Achilles]

Yea, I was interested in it, but I'd hoped they'd add some smaller scale campaigns, Rome was too large in scale, and I hated the freeform movement on the strategic map. Just overall took way too long to play the game and got tedious (Civ4 with a normal map is the limit of what I’ll take as far as tedium). Loved the systems besides that though.I hope you discovered the spacebar. Unit movement in the game for some reason is unplayably slow. If you hit the spacebar it makes all the unit movement instant. For some reason it defaults to slow and returns to slow whenever a game is loaded, which I can only assume is some animator’s pet peeve in not seeing his models move at an actual (glacial) pace.

But if you were using the spacebar and found the campaign too much for you Medieval 2 introduced short campaigns (can’t reach all the tech so what’s the point), as well as 1 off historical battles, which I believe they had in Rome as well. Though they’re not very interesting if you ask me, and it’s hard to win them if you don’t have a lot of experience with the game. I've put probably 160 hours into the game at this point so I can see how it would be a bit much for folks who like shorter games.

[RMan]

I hope you discovered the spacebar.
I did (although it took me some time :(), but it still took way too long in terms of stuff you had to do that wasn't fun, and the stuff that was fun didn't stay that way after the billionth time. The historical battles weren't enough to hold my interest either. I just want the world in the game to get smaller, and they just go the other way. I’m likely passing on Supreme Commander for the same basic reason. C&C3 looks like my speed.

[Headcase]

I dunno, I found that if you give Sonic a couple of hours (to earn enough skills and unlock some of the later levels) it can be a real blast as the controls, precisions, etc. improve by leaps and bounds the more you play. The first few hours, tho, can be a bit tedious (Blur is kinda in the same camp as it takes a few hours for it to all 'click'--then it's just bloody awesome.)

You know, I'm playing more of Blur, and I have to admit the controls are getting a lot more enjoyable the more I play.

With Sonic I did not feel the same way, after about 3-4 hours of play. First of all, having to tilt the controller for a homing attack... wow, does that ever get old. I don't know... maybe there's a special power that lets you use a button instead. Secondly, sometimes the backwards walking seemed to just not want to work. Ditto for the catapults. So I ended up only playing two worlds and leveling up to... probably level 8 or something.

Blur I felt the same way about at first (especially user-tricks), but I'm learning that game and it's getting better all the time.

Not entirely, probably not even a ROOT cause, I just think it was amazingly bone-headed. I heard many people say before launch "I'd get one...but it's purple"

I got one at launch* and it wasn't purple.

*I really like Smash Bros