Playstation 3 - All Shook Up?

[Dr.Finger]

Apparently Immersion now <3 Sony (http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070301/sfth075.html?.v=79).
Immersion Corporation a leading developer and licensor of touch feedback technology, and Sony Computer Entertainment (SCE) today announced the companies have agreed to conclude their patent litigation at the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit and have entered into a new business agreement to explore the inclusion of Immersion technology in PlayStation® format products. Whether this means force feedback or rumble will be coming to the PS3 remains to be seen, although inquiring minds will note that the Game Developers Conference is right around the corner.

Big thanks to Jadkins555 for bringing this to our attention in the forums.

[Klade]

Golly do you think this means that Sony has found a way to stop the rumble technology from interfering with their motion sensing controller? How incredibly convienent that it might happen right when they settle this suit? *rolls eyes*

[torrefaction]

I can't wait to see what goes down at GDC this year.

[Adam Blue]

Golly do you think this means that Sony has found a way to stop the rumble technology from interfering with their motion sensing controller? How incredibly convienent that it might happen right when they settle this suit? *rolls eyes*

Exactly. This is the point.

[Johan]

I’m going to say what I said in the other thread on this topic:

This is terrific news for Sony, the PS3, and Immersion, in that rumble is a nice feature to have as an option for developers and gamers to utilize. However, it’s also an insult to people who've bought a PS3 WITHOUT rumble in the controllers, listening to the bullshit excuses from Sony that rumble is a last-gen feature.

What a load of horseshit, when it was always about money. Now, should this get into standard controllers, you'll need to replace yours to enjoy what should have been there from the get-go.

If the PS3 were flying off of shelves, I highly doubt such a wasted, last-gen feature would have made its way in to the controller (IF that's what happens).

[gojira]

Immersion less than three Sony?

[Kelegacy]

Can't you merge the threads, Dr. Finger? I don't want to have to fight with these guys all over again. :)

[Craigtheplague]

Perhaps Sony downplayed rumble to have a bit more bartering power with Immersion. When you negotiate with someone, you don't want to look desperate for the product you want or the money you need when you sell a product.

[Banacek]

Can we ever create a Sony thread without people trying to destroy it? Jesus. And fitbabits wonders why I give this site so much shit sometimes.

Where were you when this thread was going on? (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26029) Everyone acted like I was the crazy one.

[Kelegacy]

It's better for them to rectify this as soon as possible. 3 or 4 months after launch is a pain, but it's better than never. We'll forget all about this after using rumble PS3 motion controllers for 6 more years.

[Tyrant]

This had better mean rumble in PS3 controllers, otherwise there isn't much of a point to this, aside from being allowed to produce the older Dual Shocks.

[Kelegacy]

Where were you when this thread was going on? (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26029) Everyone acted like I was the crazy one.
Where did you get that quote? From the other rumble thread?

FITBABITS IS GONNA KILL ME. Or just lecture me profusely. :)

[EternalGamer]

It's better for them to rectify this as soon as possible. 3 or 4 months after launch is a pain, but it's better than never. We'll forget all about this after using rumble PS3 motion controllers for 6 more years.

Yeah, but until MS does something about their D-pads, I will never forget about the crappy ass directional controls on the 360. That is much bigger deal than the lack of rumble on the PS3 ever was.

[Banacek]

Where did you get that quote? From the other rumble thread?

FITBABITS IS GONNA KILL ME. Or just lecture me profusely. :)

The other thread. I'll delete it if you want. I just wanted to comment on it, but since that thread was closed...

[Kelegacy]

The other thread. I'll delete it if you want. I just wanted to comment on it, but since that thread was closed...
I was kidding. I don't care.

I'm glad I stayed out of that BC thread. It happens all the time, so while I'm not surprised it's still incredibly frustrating.

[NeoSuplex]

Yeah, but until MS does something about their D-pads, I will never forget about the crappy ass directional controls on the 360. That is much bigger deal than the lack of rumble on the PS3 ever was.

Fuck yes! I shouldn't get better precision from a damn Analog stick than with a D-Pad.

[Banacek]

I was kidding. I don't care.

I'm glad I stayed out of that BC thread. It happens all the time, so while it's not surprised it's still incredibly frustrating.

Since this thread is going to go to shit like all Sony threads, I'll just ask you here: did you ever pick up a PSP? One of the buttons on the one I bought was flakey, so I sent it back to get replaced, but while I had it I had PSX, NES, and SNES games playing on it. So sweet.

[Johan]

Yeah, but until MS does something about their D-pads, I will never forget about the crappy ass directional controls on the 360. That is much bigger deal than the lack of rumble on the PS3 ever was.

I totally agree. The 360 controller would be the best controller I've ever used, in my opinion, if it weren't for the totally useless d-pad making it HORRIBLE.

[EternalGamer]

Fuck yes! I shouldn't get better precision from a damn Analog stick than with a D-Pad.

Having to play Lumines with the analogue stick is terribly awkward.

[Evil Avnovice]

Of course, they could've solved the problem before it got out of control.

Either way, PS3 early adopters will probably end up getting screwed over again if Sony [unsurprisngly] doesn't take into account consumers who already picked up a unit at this point.

Rumble should have been in the controllers in the first place. Some people like it, others don't, but Sony could have saved themselves a headache from such an unimportant issue if they had just worked out an agreement with Immersion when the problem first arised.

[Tyrant]

Fuck yes! I shouldn't get better precision from a damn Analog stick than with a D-Pad.

?

That's like saying the arrow keys on your keyboard shouldn't be less precise than a mouse...unless you're referring to doing like half-circles and all that for fighting games as opposed to aiming a gun or something.

[Banacek]

Yeah, but until MS does something about their D-pads, I will never forget about the crappy ass directional controls on the 360. That is much bigger deal than the lack of rumble on the PS3 ever was.

Oh, tell me about it. Playing SF2 is a nightmare with that thing. Almost as bad as the Dreamcast directional pad.

[Hemalin]

Yeah, but until MS does something about their D-pads, I will never forget about the crappy ass directional controls on the 360. That is much bigger deal than the lack of rumble on the PS3 ever was.
At least they aren't using the Fatty's D-pad (http://www.toppaninteramericainc.com/mod/images/finallightson.jpg) anymore.

[EternalGamer]

Oh, tell me about it. Playing SF2 is a nightmare with that thing. Almost as bad as the Dreamcast directional pad.

Even trying to shortcut spells in Oblivion is a pain. Probably 1 out of every 4 times it can't read the diagonal inputs right and I can't select the spell I want.

[TheEpicOfTyler]

Woo. I feel sorry for all the PS3's owners that will have to buy new controllers.

[Evil Avnovice]

Even trying to shortcut spells in Oblivion is a pain. Probably 1 out of every 4 times it can't read the diagonal inputs right and I can't select the spell I want.

Sad to hear that. I never have a problem using Oblivion's hotkey feature, and while diagonal inputs are kind of spotty, they never frustrated me that much.

[Hemalin]

Woo. I feel sorry for all the PS3's owners that will have to buy new controllers.
So all current controllers are going to have thier self-destruct switches activated?

[EternalGamer]

Sad to hear that. I never have a problem using Oblivion's hotkey feature, and while diagonal inputs are kind of spotty, they never frustrated me that much.


Well, I fixed it by not putting any spells I use often on the diagonals. But the point is, I shouldn't have to do that to compensate for an inaccurate controller.

[Kelegacy]

Since this thread is going to go to shit like all Sony threads, I'll just ask you here: did you ever pick up a PSP? One of the buttons on the one I bought was flakey, so I sent it back to get replaced, but while I had it I had PSX, NES, and SNES games playing on it. So sweet.
I've contemplated starting a thread looking to trade or buy one. Also, I have to go down and pay my rent tomorrow (I live over my cousin's game store in a large downtown apartment) so I'll see what they have. Maybe they'll be willing to give me one for a bargain price.

Otherwise, I'm game to trade my DS Lite for one. Seriously.

[Johan]

Oh, tell me about it. Playing SF2 is a nightmare with that thing. Almost as bad as the Dreamcast directional pad.

My personal biggest Arcade disappointment...the pad makes the controls impossible. It was a real bummer for me.

[EternalGamer]

Otherwise, I'm game to trade my DS Lite for one. Seriously.


Lame, you are officially out of the EA Dragon Quest IX party, I guess.

[Kelegacy]

Lame, you are officially out of the EA Dragon Quest IX party, I guess.
I was the moment they announced it for the DS.

[Banacek]

I've contemplated starting a thread looking to trade or buy one. Also, I have to go down and pay my rent tomorrow (I live over my cousin's game store in a large downtown apartment) so I'll see what they have. Maybe they'll be willing to give me one for a bargain price.

Otherwise, I'm game to trade my DS Lite for one. Seriously.

Don't forget pawn shops, if you have any. I don't think you'll be disappointed with it.

[Banacek]

My personal biggest Arcade disappointment...the pad makes the controls impossible. It was a real bummer for me.

I know. Oh well, I can always go over to my arcade cabinet and play it on that. :)

[Tyrant]

Regarding the 360 d-pad, here's (http://www.ufighterx.com/guides/videogame/360dpadfix/360dpadfix.htm) a guide on how to "fix" it that I read a while back. I haven't tried it myself though.

[EternalGamer]

I was the moment they announced it for the DS.


So you complain about not wanting to play videogames on a portable game console because you prefer to play them on your TV. Then you go and trade in DS for a PSP and your reason? So that you can play games you could already play on your TV on a portable game console. :confused:

[Johan]

Regarding the 360 d-pad, here's (http://www.ufighterx.com/guides/videogame/360dpadfix/360dpadfix.htm) a guide on how to "fix" it that I read a while back. I haven't tried it myself though.

Thanks for that link. I'm going to bookmark it. I'm afraid to try since I really can't afford extra controllers, and I only have one as it is. :(

MS should have fixed that issue long ago. Very poor indeed.

[Kelegacy]

So you complain about not wanting to play videogames on a portable game console because you prefer to play them on your TV. Then you go and trade in DS for a PSP and your reason? So that you can play games you could already play on your TV on a portable game console. :confused:
Yup, pretty much.

Plus, I'm disenchanted with the DS. Haven't turned it on since the summer. I haven't been interested in much, and I own tons of games I have only played for a few minutes.

I don't think it's portable gaming that I don't enjoy, but rather the types of games the portables tend to get. The PSP is more like a portable Playstation (duh), and if it doesn't sit well with me I'll get rid of that, too. Then I've played through the portable circuit and learned my lesson.

[BlackPete]

Good for Sony to settle this stupid issue. It'd have been nice to settle this before the PS3 launch, but still...

I guess it's just lucky for developers that vibration has always been an option feature that you could turn on/off in the menu settings and never really been a required feature. I do miss the days that once a console shipped, then that was _it_. No changes until the next generation :(

[Fartacus]

Yeah, but until MS does something about their D-pads, I will never forget about the crappy ass directional controls on the 360. That is much bigger deal than the lack of rumble on the PS3 ever was.

And until Sony gets rid of the crappy ass layout of the Dual Shock and Sixaxis controllers that makes the thumb sticks practically unusable, I'll never forget about their crappy ass controls. Oh, with Sixaxis I'll add the additional gripe that the analog triggers must have been designed by a retarded intern. Who the hell thinks a trigger should be convex and angled towards the player so that the fingers slide off? It's a damn good thing that Sony doesn't design guns.

[EternalGamer]

I don't think it's portable gaming that I don't enjoy, but rather the types of games the portables tend to get. The PSP is more like a portable Playstation (duh), and if it doesn't sit well with me I'll get rid of that, too. Then I've played through the portable circuit and learned my lesson.

Oh, don't get me wrong. When the price drops, I'm completely interested in buying a PSP. I mean, playing Playstation like Symphony of the Night, Final Fantasy VII, or Dragon Quest VII anywhere sounds awesome. But until then, I guess I'll have to settle with games like Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow, Portrait of Run, and Dragon Quest IX, and Final Fantasy XII: RW. You know, those silly old portable games that are nothing like the good old traditional Playstation ones...

[Fartacus]

At least they aren't using the Fatty's D-pad (http://www.toppaninteramericainc.com/mod/images/finallightson.jpg) anymore.

It's called the Duke, not the Fatty. And until the 360 controller was released, the Duke was the best console controller available.

[Kelegacy]

It's called the Duke, not the Fatty. And until the 360 controller was released, the Duke was the best console controller available.
You mean the worst? Slanted, oval buttons? White and black buttons (stupid anyway) are way out of place. The size isn't much of a problem for me, but the button layout is unforgivable. And a controller dies or thrives on something such as that. BAD.

My friend, who's larger than me by far, always used to get stuck with the Duke when we played 2 player games while I had the better S. He friggin' hated it, too.

[Jack B]

Good. I'm a rumble fan.

Although..., Phil Harrison just said last week, that rumble was last gen technology. Since, so many PS3 owners have stated they hate rumble, this might be bad news for them if it raises to cost of a Sixaxis.

Personally, I hope they include it in future Sixaxis controllers as it will make the PS3 more attractive to me. Potentially good news.

[EternalGamer]

You mean the worst? Slanted, oval buttons? White and black buttons (stupid anyway) are way out of place. The size isn't much of a problem for me, but the button layout is unforgivable. And a controller dies or thrives on something such as that. BAD.

My friend, who's larger than me by far, always used to get stuck with the Duke when we played 2 player games while I had the better S. He friggin' hated it, too.


That controller convinced me that layout is just something you get used to. I used that pad for so long that I was more comfortable with it than any other pad that generation of consoles. And when I got an S-controller, I couldn't use it because I was so used to the black and white buttons being where they were on the original pad.

However the d-pad on it still sucked. Inaccuracy is one thing you can't ever just get used to.

[Jack B]

I can't wait to see what goes down at GDC this year.

Yeah, Sony seems to be pointing towards GDC to make some interesting announcements. This could be fun.

[Kamalot]

Yeah, Sony seems to be pointing towards GDC to make some interesting announcements. This could be fun.I'd like to hear the GDC announcement proclaiming they have fixed their corporate issues concerning honesty, tack, commitment-keeping and humility.

Instead, they'll probably announce some great ideas that they stole from someone else, previously bad-mouthed and crapped all over, and now proclaim are the greatest things since the Mini Discs.

[Hemalin]

The black and white buttons on the fatty were horribly placed. For a controller with a lot of real estate, the buttons were needlessly crowded. Plus the piece of melted plastic they called a d-pad.

[NeoSuplex]

?

That's like saying the arrow keys on your keyboard shouldn't be less precise than a mouse...unless you're referring to doing like half-circles and all that for fighting games as opposed to aiming a gun or something.

Yeah, I kinda worded that wrong... What I mean is, the advantage of a D-Pad is supposed to be that I can press just down and not to either side AT ALL.

[Banacek]

Fartacus hates the Dual Shock and loved the Fatty. I'm the complete opposite. I didn't even buy a Xbox till the S controller came out.

[Kamalot]

You mean the worst? Slanted, oval buttons? White and black buttons (stupid anyway) are way out of place. The size isn't much of a problem for me, but the button layout is unforgivable. And a controller dies or thrives on something such as that. BAD.
I wouldn't call the Duke the worst controller, but it is gawdamn close. Seriously, who came up with buttons that have a rounded dome on them? You are right on the money. The original Xbox 360 controller sucked so hard.

Hey, who knows. Maybe Sony will bring back the Double-Ended Dildorang (tm)!

[torrefaction]

I wouldn't call the Duke the worst controller, but it is gawdamn close. Seriously, who came up with buttons that have a rounded dome on them? You are right on the money. The original Xbox 360 controller sucked so hard.

Hey, who knows. Maybe Sony will bring back the Double-Ended Dildorang (tm)!

What? The original Xbox 360 controller sucked so hard? You mean the BEST CONTROLLER EVER?!!?!

(You probably didn't mean to put the 360 there, huh?)

[NeoSuplex]

It's a damn good thing that Sony doesn't design guns.

Sniper: Taking the shot. Oh Shit, my gun is de-synced!

[Kamalot]

What? The original Xbox 360 controller sucked so hard? You mean the BEST CONTROLLER EVER?!!?!

(You probably didn't mean to put the 360 there, huh?)
Haha! That's what I get for banging it out on my Treo's tiny screen.

yes, the 360 controller is probably the best traditional controller ever made. It is shockingly good.

[BlueBomber]

Hmm. I wonder if they will have some sort of replacement option for old controllers, kind of like the whole non-removable battery issue. Didn't they say they would replace the controller if the battery goes bad for a new one? Maybe when we send them in we could just get controllers that have force-feedback/rumble/whatever-its-called...

[Kamalot]

I don't recall there being a replacement program for the original dual-analog PS1 controller replacements, nor do I recall there being a replacement program for the original Xbox controllers.

[bitwise]

Awww, I was just about to submit this.

Anyone here who already has a PS3? People always say early adopters get screwed, but do you really care about rumble? Would you purchase a controller all over again?

If Sony were smart, they would let you mail in your gimpy controller for a fresh new awesome one free of charge.

[J Arcane]

Yup, pretty much.

Plus, I'm disenchanted with the DS. Haven't turned it on since the summer. I haven't been interested in much, and I own tons of games I have only played for a few minutes.

I don't think it's portable gaming that I don't enjoy, but rather the types of games the portables tend to get. The PSP is more like a portable Playstation (duh), and if it doesn't sit well with me I'll get rid of that, too. Then I've played through the portable circuit and learned my lesson.
You and me both brother.

I was initially the biggest DS cheerleader on the planet before the thing came out. I got sold on all the babble about innovation and crap.

In the end all we got were acres of minigames.

I like the PSP, because there's normal goddamn games for it. The portable Playstation aspect is exactly why it's fucking cool.

But the DS fanboys don't get it. They've swallowed the Nintendo idocy that says you can only do stupid "casual games" shit on portables. That portable games are just different somehow they never explain.


As for the 360 and Xbox controllers, well, that just shows you people what you get for avoiding PC games. Microsoft has never known how to design a good d-pad, and anyone who's ever touched a Sidewinder of any generation would know this, and expect it from an MS controller.

[BlueBomber]

Awww, I was just about to submit this.

Anyone here who already has a PS3? People always say early adopters get screwed, but do you really care about rumble? Would you purchase a controller all over again?

If Sony were smart, they would let you mail in your gimpy controller for a fresh new awesome one free of charge.Well, I use those Logitech Wireless Action controllers for my PS2, and I always have the rumble off. I think I remember the instructions reading that you can get something like 20+ hours more life if you keep the rumble function off, and I honestly haven't really noticed it, or miss it that much :/. That's just me, though.

I think the only gripe I really have about no rumble in the PS3 controllers is how light it makes them. Not that light is a bad thing - I'm just not used to it anymore. It feels like I'm holding an old NES/SNES controller or something. To quote Jurassic Park (sort of), the heavier it is, the more expensive it is (or feels, anyways).

[Kelegacy]

Well, I use those Logitech Wireless Action controllers for my PS2, and I always have the rumble off. I think I remember the instructions reading that you can get something like 20+ hours more life if you keep the rumble function off, and I honestly haven't really noticed it, or miss it that much :/. That's just me, though.

Same here. I saw that in the instructions and haven't used rumble since, AND haven't missed it. I've played FFXII, Rogue Galaxy, and I don't know how many other games and the batteries still haven't died (about 60-70 hours so far). The batteries last about 3x longer when rumble is off I think.

[NeoSuplex]

Looking at the Next-Gen write up of the situation intrigues me... According to them, Sony has some new rights with regards to Immersion's patents. Maybe this means they'll be putting some of the upgraded Rumble tech instead of the standard Big motor small motor? If that were the case, they could get away with the comments of rumble being a last gen feature by putting in 'Next-Gen Rumble'.

To Bomber and Kel: Do you play with the sound off too? Just asking...

[Kelegacy]

To Bomber and Kel: Do you play with the sound off too? Just asking...
That makes no fucking sense. Way to go, you're batting 1.000 for stupid comments today.

[EternalGamer]

In the end all we got were acres of minigames.



What in the heck are you talking about. I don't own a single mini-game collection for my DS and I own tons of games. Two great Castlevanias, a Mario game, a great 2D Sonic game, Star Fox, Final Fantasy, Sword of Mana, Yoshi's Island 2, Megaman X/Y, Elite Beat, Animal Crossing, etc.

In fact, I would be willing to bet that if you break the games available up in genres, "the mini-game" genre would be among the smallest.

I don't really care whether your or anybody else likes the DS, its popularity means that I'll be getting what I want from it regardless of the dectractors. But the idea that it only has a bunch of mini-game collections is just plain wrong.

What is true is that it has primarily 2D based games. So if you are not a fan of 2D platformers, RPGS, shooters, etc, then it isn't the system for you. But for those of use that grew up with this style of game and greatly miss it on the big consoles, both in terms of the type of tight gameplay it offers and its aesthetic, the DS is the only place to get great games in this style.

[NeoSuplex]

Makes no sense how? It's a pretty simple question as far as I can tell...

[Kelegacy]

Makes no sense how? It's a pretty simple question as far as I can tell...
How is playing with rumble off at all related to playing with the sound off? I know what you're aiming at, and it's foolish.

[Craigtheplague]

How is playing with rumble off at all related to playing with the sound off? I know what you're aiming at, and it's foolish.

He's trying to imply that rumble is just as important as sound, which we can all disagree with. I don't remember people whining to death when wavebirds came out. It was the opposite of whining.

EDIT: Actually, deaf people would benefit more from rumble than sound.

[Hemalin]

What's amusing about rumble is that people come in and say "How could you possibly x game or y game without rumble?" When infact I played these games without rumble, then when I turned rumble on, I promptly turned it off for being distracting.

[Adam Blue]

What's amusing about rumble is that people come in and say "How could you possibly x game or y game without rumble?" When infact I played these games without rumble, then when I turned rumble on, I promptly turned it off for being distracting.

True Story.

[Johan]

What is true is that it has primarily 2D based games. So if you are not a fan of 2D platformers, RPGS, shooters, etc, then it isn't the system for you. But for those of use that grew up with this style of game and greatly miss it on the big consoles, both in terms of the type of tight gameplay it offers and its aesthetic, the DS is the only place to get great games in this style.

That is what I LOVE about my DS. 2D is still awesome. I miss it on consoles (there are some, but not enough, on the consoles. Arcade is bringing some of that back for me with my 360).

Plus it's so accessible for my kids. My six-year-old was playing a Dora game tonight on it and just having a blast. I love that. That makes me feel good!

[J Arcane]

You guys do know there's some really killer 2D titles on the PSP, right?

[Johan]

You guys do know there's some really killer 2D titles on the PSP, right?

Price point is my biggest issue with the PSP. It's not much to others, but $70 extra bucks is tough for me.

It is obviously the superior piece of hardware, and I would love to use it for emulation, but...$$$ I got the DS for $129, and even that was a bit much for me.

[NeoSuplex]

How is playing with rumble off at all related to playing with the sound off? I know what you're aiming at, and it's foolish.

They're both outputs... they can both be inappropriate at certain times... I'd say that's related.

[EternalGamer]

You guys do know there's some really killer 2D titles on the PSP, right?

Yeah, I do, and that's the reason I want one. But you know what? There is A LOT more killer 2D titles on the DS.

[Hemalin]

They're both outputs... they can both be inappropriate at certain times... I'd say that's related.
And noone can figure out an "appropriate" time for rumble.

[bitwise]

In the end all we got were acres of minigames.

The last three DS games I picked up were Contact, Phoenix Wright 2, and FF3. Minigames, indeed.

Also, "in the end?" In the beginning all we got were acres of minigames. What you're saying was true for the first 6 months of launch, but it isn't true anymore. If you want to complain about "acres of minigames", complain about the Wii. The complaint will at least be valid before titles like Sadness, No More Heroes and Day of Disaster drop.

I like the PSP, because there's normal goddamn games for it. The portable Playstation aspect is exactly why it's fucking cool.

In a very technical sense, there is no such thing as a "normal" game, but I think I know what you mean. The DS has plenty of linear, story-driven, challenge-laden adventure/RPG/Shooter and sports games. In fact, I've seen more RPGs come out for the DS in the past year than I think I've seen on all three home consoles combined (just going from what's been under my radar).

Then again, maybe I misunderstood "normal". For all I know, it could refer to a very specific genre of game or a specific presentation or story type. If that is the case (and unless your favored genre/story is "a shooter with space marines vs. orkz"), you're going to be hard-pressed finding a plethora of that kind of game anywhere you look, not just on the DS.

But the DS fanboys don't get it. They've swallowed the Nintendo idocy that says you can only do stupid "casual games" shit on portables. That portable games are just different somehow they never explain.

I don't think the problem is that people don't get it. There are people who will believe anything Nintendo says, but the problem is Nintendo never said that, or even implied it. Both Castlevanias, Metroid, Final Fantasy, Contact, Phoenix Wright, Mario Kart, Lost In Blue, etc are not casual games. They're full games with real stories, real levels and real challenges. Some of them might include minigames along with the real game, but that in no way lessens their "normalcy".

Also, portable games are different, just not in terms of the kinds of gameplay you can have. I'll attempt to explain why and hope it makes sense. There are very real limitations imposed by the hardware, and there are certain assumptions a designer can not make for a portable that they could with a console.

For instance, the designer can't assume that the player will be able to *hear* what's going on in a game. The player may be someplace noisy or have the volume down. I know that when I play my DS in public, I usually have the sound off or way down. If I have to carry headphones for the sake of my portable, it is no longer portable.

Although you *can* have FMV on a portable, you aren't going to be able to have as much due to storage constraints. You could compress it more, but that increases loading times, etc. Also, although not technically required, it is nice when a portable game can be paused anytime. That's not too much of a problem with the DS, but being able to take gameplay in short chunks is something which is valued in a portable game and not incredibly important in a home console game.

Like it or not, portable hardware is going to be weaker than PC or console hardware. You aren't going to be able to push as many polygons or have as many on-screen effects. Your screen is going to be smaller and screen estate is that much more valuable. Enemies in shooters are going to be smaller. Less detail is going to be shown. Although 3D may look cooler, it can also inhibit the ability to show on-screen objects. For example, I remember seeing screenshots of the PSP's answer to Advance Wars (the title escapes me). It looked nice and the concept interested me, but I'll be damned if I could figure out what the nice looking 3D units were by glancing at them. In that case, Advance Wars's 2D cartoony units were clearly more condusive to the gameplay.

And last and most important is battery life. Everything I've talked about has some bearing on battery life in one way or another. In a home console, we all want more sound, more polys, more shaders, more voice acting, more FMV, more, more, more because we don't really care how much power the console is sucking out of the wall. The power cost is there, but it is an invisible cost (so most people ignore it), and you never had to worry about your console dying during the middle of play because there was no more power behind your wall.

In the portable world, battery life is a real cost because there's the risk of running out of juice, and you have to spend time charging your device once the battery has been depleted. If you take your portable for a trip where you may not have the opporunity to charge it along the way, battery life is valuable. As a result, more isn't necessarily always better in the portable space. In fact, if there is a simpler way to represent a game entity (say as a sprite rather than a 3D model), the developer may opt for simplicity so that the game doesn't absolutely drain the battery.

I hope that clears up the difference between home console games and portable games. I really hope I didn't type all that for a troll.

[Johan]

I really hope I didn't type all that for a troll.

WALL OF TEXT!

The above is all I read. u fayl th3 intart00bz. ;)

[KingGorilla]

Originally Posted by bitwise
I really hope I didn't type all that for a troll.
http://achievements.schrankmonster.de/Achievement.aspx?text=To%20stepped%20onto%20a%20tr oll%20bridge,%20and%20got%20caught

[TrackZero]

If the PS3 were flying off of shelves, I highly doubt such a wasted, last-gen feature would have made its way in to the controller (IF that's what happens).

Yeah, it's soooo last gen. Let's dump the d-pad while we're at it. *rolls eyes*

[bitwise]

http://achievements.schrankmonster.de/Achievement.aspx?text=To%20stepped%20onto%20a%20tr oll%20bridge,%20and%20got%20caught

i lol'd a lot :D

[Rafer]

I hope that clears up the difference between home console games and portable games. I really hope I didn't type all that for a troll.

You have some good points, just repost the comment next time a PSP thread comes up.

[J Arcane]

i lol'd a lot :D
I think you made some good points. I've jsut been aroudn this block so many times I really jsut wanan go home, and should've kept my mouth shut in the first place. I just wanted to point out to Kel that he's not alone in feeling the way he does.

I don't agree with all your points either, some of them are based off what I consider to be myths (the battery thing, for instance, isn't as bad as the DS fanboys like to trumpet about), and I think some of them are dead wrong simply becasue the PSP is proof, like you're claims about how handheld games should all be 2d, because somehow 3D doesn't work on a handheld (the 755,000 people who bought Monster Hunter in Japan last week would seem to disagree, let alone that there are 3d games on the DS too).

[ferrarimanf355]

Better late than never, I suppose, although it would have been preferable if Sony did this BEFORE the PS3 was released. You know, so we didn't have to hear all of the crappy excuses as to why there was no rumble in the first place. I can only imagine the response in that other forum...

[Siraris]

I own a DS, and used to own a PSP until it was stolen. I liked the PSP, but it definitely didn't deliver to me what I was hoping. The games just weren't there, and I didn't want to spend $20 to watch a UMD movie. Maybe things would have been different if I still owned it today. I also don't play much on the go, and I can play many of the PSP games at home.

The DS is a nice system, but it's nowhere near what many of the Nintendo fans beef it up to be. The touch screen is a huge gimick, and adds nothing to most games. It's like Sony and the Sixaxis, which is useful in many 1 out of every 20 games. I enjoy fl0w on it, but doing the whole shaking thing in Resistance is totally uncomfortable. I think the only games that I really enjoy on the DS are games that I would enjoy owning a GBA. New Super Mario, Yoshis Island, Castlevania. The only game that really couldn't have been done is Trauma Center and Wario Ware.

I think the best thing about the DS is the dual screens. I L O V E being able to have the map open in Castlevania without having to pause the game. Even in Yoshis Island it's nice to be able to see so much. Aside from that, the DS is great because of the battery life, and the price.

What Sony needs to do with the PSP is have a bunch of games that can be picked up and played for a little while, that are just plain fun. Don't make it for marathon RPG's, or Metal Gear Solids, but games like fl0w and Calling All Cars, or Blast Factor. Give me the functionality of being able to watch videos and listen to music, give me 4 hours of battery life, and make it $150, and I'll buy 10 of them.

And as for the topic, I could care less about rumble. The only reason I'd care is if it made it so Sony put FF back in the racing games, like F1. Having it rumble when something blows up on screen is about as useful as a paper cut.

[Wolvie]

Wow, Sony possibly getting force-feedback in their controllers. Whooptee-fuckin-doo. :rolleyes:

[bitwise]

I don't agree with all your points either, some of them are based off what I consider to be myths (the battery thing, for instance, isn't as bad as the DS fanboys like to trumpet about), and I think some of them are dead wrong simply becasue the PSP is proof, like you're claims about how handheld games should all be 2d, because somehow 3D doesn't work on a handheld (the 755,000 people who bought Monster Hunter in Japan last week would seem to disagree, let alone that there are 3d games on the DS too).

Hey, we can agree to disagree. Some people play their portables indoors attatched to a wall, so it's not really a big deal.

I was *not* trying to say 3D games don't belong on a handheld. They do, and many games benefit from 3D. All I was saying is that with portables it's not always obvious that 3D is a good idea. You look at the 360 or Wii and you say, "of course we're gonna make a game in 3D. The hardware can handle it and we don't have to worry about how much power we draw". On a handheld, the choice is not so clear. Maybe you go all 3D, maybe you do a mix, maybe you do full 2D. Because the hardware is limited, you have to design to it.

[Borys]

Let me get this straight, Johan123:

When Microsoft released a NEW, smaller Xbox 1 controller it was praised to heavens even though it meant it fucked the early adopters who got the Duke.

When Sony does the same - releases a new, BETTER controller in the future it's "load of horseshit"?

Some mighty double standards you have there. And mighty green glasses.

[Jack B]

Let me get this straight, Johan123:

When Microsoft released a NEW, smaller Xbox 1 controller it was praised to heavens even though it meant it fucked the early adopters who got the Duke.

When Sony does the same - releases a new, BETTER controller in the future it's "load of horseshit"?

Some mighty double standards you have there. And mighty green glasses.

There is a difference. The S-Controller had the exact same functionality with a different form factor. You can buy tons of 3rd party controllers which just modify the form factor.

If a 1st party controller were to add rumble or motion (in case the 360 offers that in the future) it could be a requirement for some games.

It's not a big deal, but a racing game for instance uses rumble to help you feel when your tires are slipping. In MLB 2k7 you feel the edge of the strike zone. Very helpful in multiplayer.

It's not a huge deal and I wouldn't care that much if I had a PS3 and they added rumble after the fact. I might pick up a new controller, I might not. However, some people would scream bloody murder and they would have a bit of a point.

[Jack B]

Wow, Sony possibly getting force-feedback in their controllers. Whooptee-fuckin-doo. :rolleyes:

Hey, I just came from a thread where you said, "who gives a flying fuck" about another topic...

You're on a real, "who gives a fuck" roll tonight! :D

[Chameleo]

The DS is a nice system, but it's nowhere near what many of the Nintendo fans beef it up to be. The touch screen is a huge gimick, and adds nothing to most games. It's like Sony and the Sixaxis, which is useful in many 1 out of every 20 games. I enjoy fl0w on it, but doing the whole shaking thing in Resistance is totally uncomfortable. I think the only games that I really enjoy on the DS are games that I would enjoy owning a GBA. New Super Mario, Yoshis Island, Castlevania. The only game that really couldn't have been done is Trauma Center and Wario Ware.


brain age REALLY boosted the DS to new heights of consumer awareness in Japan and around the world. Now there are all KINDS of "train your brain" software out there; theres even a brain age for the PSP developed by the same doctor who did the original brain age for the DS.

Nintendo now plans on making a work-out game, and other "good-for-you" games to pull in even more casual fans.

Brain Age and all its spin offs could not have been done without the touch screen. I think we owe a lot more to the touch screen than just being a "gimmick"; its a real useful feature that can change the way we game...

when rumble first came out it was a total gimmick. wow wow wee wow, the controller shakes when i crash in twisted metal now.... >_<

but later on it was used in very innovative ways - i.e. your heartbeat in fatal frame - man that was freaky, and other ways that i can't be bothered to point out.

point is, as it stands, the touch screen (alone) could be considered a gimmick, but with proper developer use (i.e. brain age/fatal frame) it can be championed as a real innovation.

[Chameleo]

Hey, we can agree to disagree. Some people play their portables indoors attatched to a wall, so it's not really a big deal.

I was *not* trying to say 3D games don't belong on a handheld. They do, and many games benefit from 3D. All I was saying is that with portables it's not always obvious that 3D is a good idea. You look at the 360 or Wii and you say, "of course we're gonna make a game in 3D. The hardware can handle it and we don't have to worry about how much power we draw". On a handheld, the choice is not so clear. Maybe you go all 3D, maybe you do a mix, maybe you do full 2D. Because the hardware is limited, you have to design to it.

bomberman Zero or whatever.... 3d bomberman? 3d sonic?

*puke*

[Chameleo]

Let me get this straight, Johan123:

When Microsoft released a NEW, smaller Xbox 1 controller it was praised to heavens even though it meant it fucked the early adopters who got the Duke.

When Sony does the same - releases a new, BETTER controller in the future it's "load of horseshit"?

Some mighty double standards you have there. And mighty green glasses.

didnt fuck early adopters b/c the controllers were the same. one was just smaller.....

you're grasping for straws here...

and sony's done this before - the original PS1 controllers did not come with rumble, but later ones did.

there's precedent for this; why sweat over it?

Sony has a less then 5million install base now, if they just did a quick switch on the contollers hardly anyone would notice; if they allowed the original buyers to send in their old controllers for new ones that would be an added bonus.

would do wonders for their PR as well.

[oldjadedgamer]

and sony's done this before - the original PS1 controllers did not come with rumble, but later ones did.

Also, the PS1 original controllers didn't have analog either until a new controller was introduced. They made some games (Ape Escape) require the new controller and you were simply unable to play the game at all with the controller that came with the launch unit.

For the original Playstation, Sony first had the launch controller, then they had the analog controller without rumble... then finally they released a controller with analog and rumble.

You can't compare that to the Duke/S-Controller since every single xbox game ever made works just fine with the Duke controller. Sony actually prevented gamers from playing some games released for the system if they didn't upgrade.

[ECM]

In the end all we got were acres of minigames.


Have you even looked at the DS library since the end of '05? Because that's the only way you could possibly justify a comment as asine as this...

[Gorvi]

Anyone who wants some of those quick fun games on the PSP can go here (http://www.psponme.com/list_psp.asp) and get an assload of flash games that you can always have on your memory stick, you just access them from the web browser. :)

[DubiousQuality]

Let me get this straight, Johan123:

When Microsoft released a NEW, smaller Xbox 1 controller it was praised to heavens even though it meant it fucked the early adopters who got the Duke.

When Sony does the same - releases a new, BETTER controller in the future it's "load of horseshit"?

Some mighty double standards you have there. And mighty green glasses.

Its not double standards at all. The S didn't add anything just was smaller and easier to handle. Sony adding rumble would however just point out another Sony lie about rumble interfering with their oh so innovative motion sensors.

[Joestar]

So the 360 is getting the HDMI, and PS3 is finally getting rumble after both companies flame those respective features on each other's consoles.

Can we just have a truce in this? :|

But what's next though, Wii to get like one of those Hi-res pack add-ons?

Edit: It would be cool though, if the sixaxis gets those new force-feedback tech Immersion just developed. Now about those dual analog placement..

[Johan]

Let me get this straight, Johan123:

Always knew you were a straight shooter, Borys! :rolleyes:

Plenty of others have already tackled this, but I'll chime in. The original Xbox controllers sucked. Both of them, in my opinion, as the black and white buttons were basically useless (for me, at least). That is actually my first comment on the original Xbox controllers, too! Many others will disagree and say they liked them; that's fine. I didn't like the black-white button placement at all. On either version.

The current 360 controller, as I said PREVIOUSLY, would be the best controller I've ever used for a console, if not for the absolutely useless d-pad.

But, why deal in what I've actually said, right? Just make it up as you go along on your trolls!

"trolling, trolling, trolling,
Whining and some groaning,
Borys is bemoaning..."

Good luck with your new job as resident troll! So far, frankly, you FAIL! :D

[Johan]

Anyone who wants some of those quick fun games on the PSP can go here (http://www.psponme.com/list_psp.asp) and get an assload of flash games that you can always have on your memory stick, you just access them from the web browser. :)

I have to say, if I had the money, I'd pick one up in a heartbeat. It's a terrific device.

I don't like having only one analog stick/nub, though. That's a big drawback for me. Give me two or none.

[Goronmon]

Finally some good news. Here's to hoping they have a new revision of the controller before I end up picking up a PS3.

[Zaro]

Why, rumble is so last gen.

[Yeti2005]

I was considered picking up a PS3 (for free with Sony points) in May. If they release a rumble version of their controller then I hope it's bundled in their system by then.

By adding rumble Sony will knock off one of the big complaints (besides price and half-assed network) of their list. This is definitely a good thing if it's true and pans out.

[SalaciousPuck]

I'm glad to hear Sony settled up. This was alot of money, but it's key to gaming. In ignoring a settlement they were trying to save a buck, and ignoring the basic expectations of gamers....the market. Hopefully this is a sign that Sony's focus is on gaming again.

Now they need to drop blu-ray as pre-req for the console, get it out at $299 for Christmas, match XBL feature-for-feature (which it sounds like they are doing)......and it's a three horse race again.


I wouldn't call the Duke the worst controller, but it is gawdamn close. Seriously, who came up with buttons that have a rounded dome on them? You are right on the money. The original Xbox 360 controller sucked so hard.


The Duke's form factor - the size and hold - was my favorite, all time. Still, I agree, as a whole, the control sucked. The ABXY & D's were all a little too curvy. How they placed the white/black buttons so inconveniently, with so much room available is incomprehensible. The S was an improvement and the 360's is near perfection.

[Citizen Philip]

So did they pay Immersion, or say "Fuck you." until Immersion agreed to license, at whatever price Sony was willing to pay for Rumble? As I recall, Sony didn't pay the 100 million awarded to Immersion, which didn't include licensing for future products (I would assume). It's unfortunate that it's the users who pay, when companies start pulling out the shitsticks, but sooner is better than later.

[Yeti2005]

I wonder how Sony will spin the announcement of the addition of the rumble.

"We told you rumble was last gen and you didn't need it but you bitched to us since May 2006 (ps3 specs announced) and we have finally listened!"

I still think the rumble addition is a good thing but Sony doesn't strike me as the type of company to come out and say "Yes we messed up but we're making it up to you." which would garner more respect.

[BlackPete]

The S was an improvement and the 360's is near perfection.

I generally agree -- that's why the dpad issue is so retarded and super aggravating. They came so close... oh so close to creating the perfect controller...

Then they go fuck it up with a lame-ass Gravis-like dpad from back in the 90's! WTF happened at the controller design department?!

[Magnanimous Gnome]

Also, the PS1 original controllers didn't have analog either until a new controller was introduced. They made some games (Ape Escape) require the new controller and you were simply unable to play the game at all with the controller that came with the launch unit.

For the original Playstation, Sony first had the launch controller, then they had the analog controller without rumble... then finally they released a controller with analog and rumble.

You can't compare that to the Duke/S-Controller since every single xbox game ever made works just fine with the Duke controller. Sony actually prevented gamers from playing some games released for the system if they didn't upgrade.


Nintendo did that as well with the N64 and the memory pack.

Lots of consoles have required extra things to be purchased for certain games to work.

I really doubt that there will be many, if any, PS3 games that have to have rumble to be playable.

[Kelegacy]

Nintendo did that as well with the N64 and the memory pack.

Lots of consoles have required extra things to be purchased for certain games to work.

I really doubt that there will be many, if any, PS3 games that have to have rumble to be playable.
Also, Turok 2 needed the memory expansion cartridge to be played, as did some other games. Now THAT was weak, especially since Turok was like 80 bucks at retail.

[NeoSuplex]

Also, the PS1 original controllers didn't have analog either until a new controller was introduced. They made some games (Ape Escape) require the new controller and you were simply unable to play the game at all with the controller that came with the launch unit.

For the original Playstation, Sony first had the launch controller, then they had the analog controller without rumble... then finally they released a controller with analog and rumble.

You can't compare that to the Duke/S-Controller since every single xbox game ever made works just fine with the Duke controller. Sony actually prevented gamers from playing some games released for the system if they didn't upgrade.

Actually, Ape escape was the SINGLE game in the PS1 Library that required the use of a Dual Shock. Hell, if you get mad about that, how about Guncon games? Or Steel Battalion?

Say what you will about Sony's PR handling of the whole ordeal, but I wouldn't consider the Dual Shock model a bad one to follow, especially if they use the fuller featured Immersion tech.
I dare you to get mad about Steel Battalion. I will kill you.

[oldjadedgamer]

Actually, Ape escape was the SINGLE game in the PS1 Library that required the use of a Dual Shock. Hell, if you get mad about that, how about Guncon games? Or Steel Battalion?

Say what you will about Sony's PR handling of the whole ordeal, but I wouldn't consider the Dual Shock model a bad one to follow, especially if they use the fuller featured Immersion tech.
I dare you to get mad about Steel Battalion. I will kill you.

The other games you mentioned came with the controller that was needed for the games to work. Nintendo did screw over consumers by requiring them to buy the ram pack and what was worse is that a Zelda title required it.

In the end, my point still stands that you can't compare this to the Duke/S-Controller since there is not a single game in the xbox library that can't be played with either controller.

[Joestar]

Also, the PS1 original controllers didn't have analog either until a new controller was introduced. They made some games (Ape Escape) require the new controller and you were simply unable to play the game at all with the controller that came with the launch unit.

For the original Playstation, Sony first had the launch controller, then they had the analog controller without rumble... then finally they released a controller with analog and rumble.

You can't compare that to the Duke/S-Controller since every single xbox game ever made works just fine with the Duke controller. Sony actually prevented gamers from playing some games released for the system if they didn't upgrade.

That's an unfair thing to say. It was Sony that prevented gamers from playing those games, it was the developers themselves. And honestly, Ape Escape was fun, but it wasn't one of the classic games for the system in my book.

I actually didn't have any dual shock back when I had the PSone, I was about 12 back then, with an allowance of about rm10 a week, and a Dual Shock costing about RM150 (ah, money conversion, I hate thee.)

Sorta why I haven't played Guitar Heroes yet, the whole thing + the game cost about rm500 here, and I'm dead broke after buying Rogue Galaxy.

But really, like the Xbox's original controller, this whole sixaxis fiasco will be largely forgotten by this time next year, probably. :)

Hell, I remember the whole 'Xbox sucked because it came from ***' discussions. Even Penny-Arcade was guilty of it, look where they stand now.

[Kamalot]

Sorta why I haven't played Guitar Heroes yet, the whole thing + the game cost about rm500 here, and I'm dead broke after buying Rogue Galaxy.
Sounds like you didn't get your extra job for Playstation funds. :rolleyes:

[Magnanimous Gnome]

Also, Turok 2 needed the memory expansion cartridge to be played, as did some other games. Now THAT was weak, especially since Turok was like 80 bucks at retail.


Yeah, that's what I was saying. :p I guess I didn't mention any particular games, but there were quite a few if I remember correctly.

[Magnanimous Gnome]

Sounds like you didn't get your extra job for Playstation funds. :rolleyes:


*hits Kamalot with a stick*

[Kamalot]

*hits Kamalot with a stick*
Is that kinda like pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey... but with more ass?

[Magnanimous Gnome]

Is that kinda like pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey... but with more ass?


Something like that.

Are you saying that you've got a big ass?

[Kamalot]

Something like that.

Are you saying that you've got a big ass?
I've been referred to as a big smart-ass before.

[Magnanimous Gnome]

I've been referred to as a big smart-ass before.


My mom used to call me a smart ass pretty often when I was a teenager.

My reply?

"Better a smart ass than a dumb ass!"


That didn't impress her. ;)

[oldjadedgamer]

That's an unfair thing to say. It was Sony that prevented gamers from playing those games, it was the developers themselves. And honestly, Ape Escape was fun, but it wasn't one of the classic games for the system in my book.

Ape Escape was a first party Sony developed title... so hence, Sony prevented gamers from playing the game unless they paid to upgrade their system.

If you thought Ape Escape was fun or not doesn't change the fact that you could not play the title at all unless you paid to upgrade your system. Any launch owner was left out.

[NeoSuplex]

The other games you mentioned came with the controller that was needed for the games to work. Nintendo did screw over consumers by requiring them to buy the ram pack and what was worse is that a Zelda title required it.

In the end, my point still stands that you can't compare this to the Duke/S-Controller since there is not a single game in the xbox library that can't be played with either controller.

If I remember correctly, there was a Bundle for Ape Escape 1. Again, while I can see what you're saying about the differences in the controller upgrade, I still consider a $40 controller that works with and adds to all your games and allows the use of one extra game not a bad deal compared to say, the Time Crisis gun that worked with only that game.

However, I will agree that the Ram Pack thing for 64 sucks.