The Truth Comes Out

[Liquidus]

You might have read fitbabits's news post (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25746) yesterday about the murder of a homeless man by Nathan Moore and his friends.

You might also have noticed Gabe's post (http://www.penny-arcade.com/2007/02/19) on Penny-arcade yesterday:

You might have seen this story on CNN about the teens that murdered a homeless guy and then equated it to the sort of thrill one might get from a “violent video game”. There will be plenty of articles focusing on these kids and their crime. I’d like to take a second and talk about the parents of these teenagers instead.

In response, Gabe received a email today from the stepmother (who happened to be a long-time PA reader) of Nathan Moore, giving a little insight of what kind of kid he really was. He has posted the email for all to read. (http://www.penny-arcade.com/)

Thanks to Loganrapp for a similar submission.

[walkstheplanes]

This is wild.

[rinichanraar]

Wow. That's crazy.

I don't know what else to say.

[fitbabits]

Jesus... To say the kid was "broken" is somewhat of an understatement.

[GrinR]

He's nothing but a low-down, double-dealing, backstabbing, larcenous perverted worm! Hanging's too good for him. Burning's too good for him! He should be torn into little bitsy pieces and buried alive!

[motor]

It's really unfortunate, most parents have a huge influence on their kids, but some kids are just unfixable. It's rare but it does happen. Sounds like from the letter that this was one of those cases. I wonder if they thought about boot camp, or if that was even an option. That's about the only thing I can think of for so drastic a situation.

[Gamefreaks]

Wow...just..wow

At least its the American justice system beating down on him. If this was NZ the 'be nice to kids' courts would have sent him to the equivilant of a holiday camp (ps2's included) and he's be out in 2 years :/

[Karmakin]

I've seen situations like this before, dealt with them, seen them head on. I've seen that story so many times. Smart kid, or at least clever enough...too clever. For some reason lacks any sort of compassion/responsibilty/whatever. The reality is, I suspect that in most of these cases with kids like this..the parents had no chance. Great parenting is good and all that. It'll help good kids become great. But it won't fix seriously damaged kids.

[KarmaGhost]

Wow. Sounds like he's psychotic... literally psychotic. There is no cure for this and once he's out in 15 years, he will do something like this again. I hope they distance themselves as much as possible from him and do whatever it takes to protect themselves.

[J Arcane]

That my friends, is what we call a "sociopath".

[Schnoogs]

I call BS on the letter...I'm sure the stepmom has nothing better to do than write 3 page letters to every website that mentions her stepson.

[rein]

Wow! As a parent I can't imagine what these people went through. I have been blessed and through no fault of my own my daughter has grown up with more motivation to succeed and to do the right thing than I could ever put on her. To think these parents did try and this kid still got away with everything he did is crazy. I would think at some point the parents could have turned him over to the state if he was accusing them of abuse. It would be hard to do and I am sure that no parent, no matter how bad their kid might be would never be able to imagine that the child would kill someone, but I think after the abuse accusations I would have told them to take him. Especially after going through what it sounds like these three parents went through.

It's a truly sad event in every way.

[Rakael]

I really do feel for those parents. I will say, were he my son, I would probably have been in jail myself. Whenever I have a kid, and if they act like him, the child abuse charges will be real. I will smooth kick the little bastards ass all over the house. 'Course, I was something of a late child (parents were in their late 40's when I was born), so I was raised by an older generation that demanded respect for your elders, parents especially.

[Draconis]

By the Gods...

Words just do not equate the sheer amount of horror they must have dealt with. Things like this make me worry for the day me and my GF will be married and have Kids. I always sit there and question myself if I will be a good enough Father to my children. I had considerably less then what some might consider to be a 'walk in the park' childhood. And I sit here and swear to myself that I will never end up like what was done to me, that I will be ten million times better to my own Children.

But things like this....just what does ONE do? I mean, when our own society, fucked up as it is and looking for a scapegoat to point the finger at everything on, does not even help the people WHO DO need helping, then what does one do? I mean, they begged and pleaded for something to be done, and everyone believed the kid. No one even dared to even lift a finger or sit there and go...wait a minute...something's not right here.

I mean come on...is our Society THAT damned Brainwashed and STUPID?

Sad thing is, the true story will never see the light of the media. Because only death, blood, and sex sells headlines nowadays.

What the sam hell is happening to our world...

[Wasson_]

I call BS on the letter...I'm sure the stepmom has nothing better to do than write 3 page letters to every website that mentions her stepson.

Hurm...soo...

Is it ligament?

[Food Nipple]

I call BS on the letter...I'm sure the stepmom has nothing better to do than write 3 page letters to every website that mentions her stepson.

The next time you find yourself making an assinine post like this, don't.

[camberiu]

Something does not add up in this story. That kid was very angry at something. Nice, balanced and fully functional families usually do not generate sociopaths.
The problem is probably deeper than what we are lead to believe.

[Dakar]

Writing three-page letters to gaming webcomics about your son....

Awesome parenting!!!

I'm sure the sort of woman who would put her family's business onto Penny Arcade has just dandy parental skills.

[KingGorilla]

I call BS on the letter...I'm sure the stepmom has nothing better to do than write 3 page letters to every website that mentions her stepson.
I Don't think some Jackass would crank out 1000+ words on a whim.

[Sion]

I call BS on the letter...I'm sure the stepmom has nothing better to do than write 3 page letters to every website that mentions her stepson.


I think this is a valid idea to bring up.

We dont know, and I doubt we ever will, and even though Schnoogs is going to get a lot of shit for this, I think something this serious deserves suspicion.

[camberiu]

I think this is a valid idea to bring up.

We dont know, and I doubt we ever will, and even though Schnoogs is going to get a lot of shit for this, I think something this serious deserves suspicion.


Yep, skepticism is a great trait to nurture. And this PA we are talking about, for Christ sake, not Reuters or the NYTimes. We should take this kind of stuff with some grain of salt.

[maharahaj]

My coworker is in a similar situation. His niece (age 17) has been arrested for possession of drugs, drunk driving, arrested of other offenses, hangs pictures of herself doing drugs in her room, brags about sleeping with up to ten guys on one day on her myspace account and in her diary which she apparently leaves open in public etc. Unfortunately, her mother, my coworker's sister, REFUSES to admit that any of these things are actually happening, despite her own daughter admitting to it, bragging about it, getting arrested for it and being caught in the act by other family members.

And from the stories my coworker always has, her younger brother is always scapegoated for the actions his older sister is doing, dispite being a smart and good kid all around (i've met him). Everytime my coworker tries to bring his sister to realize that something is seriously wrong, with multiple interventions with other friends and family, the end result is the mother still not buckling down or accepting the fact. She apparently always has someone else to blame for the situation and that her daughter is innocent. She'll also fully accept the typ. line like " Well, the time I did cocaine in that picture was the only time I tried it" line from her daughter. Etc.
The father does nothing as the mom is so dominant in the family she rules all and he just lets it continue. My coworker has now been banned from their house (he lives close by) for continually trying to bring it to his sister's attention. And he has always been a father-like figure in his niece's and nephews live. True discouraging. He's stated that MANY people have commented that both mother and daughter need serious psychological help; one of which came from an actual psychologist, a friend of the family.

For some reason, I have a feeling that situations like these are more prevalant than many people think or know.

[mkelehan]

And this PA we are talking about, for Christ sake, not Reuters or the NYTimes.You're right. I trust PA more.

[Taco]

I call BS on the letter...I'm sure the stepmom has nothing better to do than write 3 page letters to every website that mentions her stepson.

Yep. Now you can go ahead and name that second website.

And I bet she does have nothing better to do than vent about the situation. I'm sure that it has some therapeutic value with all the shit she's been through.

[Liquidus]

You're right. I trust PA more.

I second that.

[Taco]

I think this is a valid idea to bring up.

We dont know, and I doubt we ever will, and even though Schnoogs is going to get a lot of shit for this, I think something this serious deserves suspicion.

This is true. But the letter is pretty specific, if someone wanted to spend the time they could at least pin point it to someone who knew the family very well.

[Heretic Machine]

Something does not add up in this story. That kid was very angry at something. Nice, balanced and fully functional families usually do not generate sociopaths.
The problem is probably deeper than what we are lead to believe.

Sociopaths have problems with the actual chemistry and make-up of their brains, it isn't something that you can create by parenting.

[cppcrusader]

That kid was very angry at something.

Something like, oh, a divorce perhaps?

[archon]

Even if it is a made up letter, it's obvious the kid was messed up beyond what anything as trivial as video games could do to him.

[Chameleo]

I really do feel for those parents. I will say, were he my son, I would probably have been in jail myself. Whenever I have a kid, and if they act like him, the child abuse charges will be real. I will smooth kick the little bastards ass all over the house. 'Course, I was something of a late child (parents were in their late 40's when I was born), so I was raised by an older generation that demanded respect for your elders, parents especially.

i'm afraid of that tendency in myself as well. my father's in his 70s and i'm in my 20s.....

and schnoogs: how can you disbelieve the letter? you think some jackass just made that all up?! i dont think jackasses have enough patience to come up with and type all that and send it.

hopefully everything that could've been done was done - and people can live without regrets. the kid ended up where he should have been put and that's that. its too bad someone had to die for it... and in such a horrible way. to be shit on and then cut after being beaten....... god. the inhumanity.

[Taco]

Something like, oh, a divorce perhaps?

I can't tell if this was sarcasm. I'm assuming so.

If a divorce drives you to that, you got issues. My parents were divorced when I was young, but old enough to remember before and after. No huge deal really. I'm not wiping shit on the faces of bums.

And as the letter points out, he's got a sibling that turned out fine. I was going to pull the "To little too late" card until that paragraph. I can see them not being treated 100% the same, that's impossible, but to turn out so different if they were both chemically sound? No.

[Deadend]

Something like, oh, a divorce perhaps?
And how many kids with divorced parents go off and kill someone? Or adopted? Hmm? Oh wait, THEY DON'T.

Sociopath boy and co. decide to kill someone and then don't give a fuck about consequences.

[Chameleo]

You're right. I trust PA more.

well said. i'm with you on that one.

[heyitsjohn]

I have to side with the lot questioning the authenticity of the email, not on any specific basis, but with a Reagan-esqe 'trust, but verify' mentality. It would be fairly easy to corroborate the identity of the author by verifying prison records of the kid's mom's boyfriend - as long as that wasn't promulgated by the media.

[Taco]

I have to side with the lot questioning the authenticity of the email, not on any specific basis, but with a Reagan-esqe 'trust, but verify' mentality. It would be fairly easy to corroborate the identity of the author by verifying prison records of the kid's mom's boyfriend - as long as that wasn't promulgated by the media.

There's tons in there to corroborate the identity. I'm quite certain if it's bogus someone will prove it by the end of the day tomorrow and I'll gladly eat crow :).

[T-Rex Commando]

I think this is a valid idea to bring up.

We dont know, and I doubt we ever will, and even though Schnoogs is going to get a lot of shit for this, I think something this serious deserves suspicion.
I agree. Unless Gabe got some really hard evidence that this is legitimate, it looks pretty suspicious. Still, the letter is really well written and even if it's a fake it can't be THAT far from the truth.

Also, I wish Gabe would post more often like this. He usually just posts with updates on merchandise or upcoming PA projects, but whenever he does an "editorial" type of post it's pretty damn good. He just doesn't use as many big words as Tycho.

[Wasson_]

and schnoogs: how can you disbelieve the letter? you think some jackass just made that all up?! i dont think jackasses have enough patience to come up with and type all that and send it.



Come in Chameleo...this is Earth...it is not at all unreasonable to doubt something arbitrarily read on the internet...that is all.

[motor]

Something does not add up in this story. That kid was very angry at something. Nice, balanced and fully functional families usually do not generate sociopaths.
The problem is probably deeper than what we are lead to believe.

I think in general that is a very good rule to go by (the professionals were obviously following that rule), but there is a very small chance that someone is just busted inside. And this letter seems to heavily indicate that this is the case.

[rein]

Something like, oh, a divorce perhaps?
I'm divorced and my daughter will be graduating with honors this year. She is well balanced, no drugs, no sex and no alcohol. She will have 18 hours of college credit when she graduates and will be on her way as a premed student next year. One thing that people need to separate is divorce and parenting. Being divorced does not mean people should stop being parents or that other people should assume that is what happened. My ex and I have been parents first and foremost in our daughters life no matter what has gone on in our lives. Reading this letter it sounds like the parents were involved in this kids life. They seemed to have tried everything they could think of including seeking professional help. Do you really think if this kids parents stayed together it would have made a difference? In all honesty, if everything in the letter is true, he may have been even worse.

oops, she will only have 18 hours when she graduates.

[GunnyMo]

Wow, how quick many of you are to vilify what could very well be an honest and true account of the parent's side of things. Honestly, I find that more disturbing than the kid blaming the murder on video games. Who really cares if it's on PA or CNN? Seriously.

Some people are just fucked up from the beginning. There is no "root cause", no "abuse". They are just defective humans who need to be put down. The sad thing is, he'll probably be out of prison in 7-10 years and be a meaner and more criminally educated sociopath.

Anyway, her letter smacks of truth because she has nailed the way our "child protection system" works. The child is always, always believed over the parents. Always. And that is very wrong.

[EternalGamer]

But things like this....just what does ONE do? I mean, when our own society, fucked up as it is and looking for a scapegoat to point the finger at everything on, does not even help the people WHO DO need helping, then what does one do? I mean, they begged and pleaded for something to be done, and everyone believed the kid. No one even dared to even lift a finger or sit there and go...wait a minute...something's not right here.

I mean come on...is our Society THAT damned Brainwashed and STUPID?

Sad thing is, the true story will never see the light of the media. Because only death, blood, and sex sells headlines nowadays.

What the sam hell is happening to our world...

I think it is pretty ironic that you make a scapegoat out of scapegoating. This seems to me to be more of a case of a tragedy in the sense that there is no scapegoat, not even the concept of scapegoating itself can be used to promote a didacticism.

[camberiu]

I think in general that is a very good rule to go by (the professionals were obviously following that rule), but there is a very small chance that someone is just busted inside. And this letter seems to heavily indicate that this is the case.

Could very well be. I am no psychiatrist or behavioral expert to speak about this matters with much certainty. However, the kid was very quick to blame something else for his actions and the parents (if the letter is legit) were also very quick to remove themselves from any blame or responsibility. Maybe they had no fault at this, or this could also be a family characteristic that the kid picked up himself by watching and imitating. I do not know enough to judge one way or another, but I am suspicious.

[Taco]

And you are trying to stretch that into murder.

Nice.

[motor]

I really do feel for those parents. I will say, were he my son, I would probably have been in jail myself. Whenever I have a kid, and if they act like him, the child abuse charges will be real. I will smooth kick the little bastards ass all over the house. 'Course, I was something of a late child (parents were in their late 40's when I was born), so I was raised by an older generation that demanded respect for your elders, parents especially.

You know it's easier to say that then it is to actually pull it off. I was at a children hospital with my son the other day and while we were waiting I was sitting next to a guy whose kid was a complete vegetable, in a wheelchair/bed arms spread out, no eye movement. Didn't acknowledge anything the entire time we waited, probably suffered some serious brain damage in a car accident of something. And you sit there as a rational human being going, "You know you should really pull the plug in this kid. You're just destroying your life, and the life of your family to keep alive something that on the inside is for all intents and purposes dead." But you can't do it, they just trudge through it, because they can't bring themselves to be rational when it's your own child. Which is why it is so hard, no matter how bad a kid is to do the rational thing: Throw them out, hurt them, confine them, work very hard to get them in jail.

I don't mean to lord over you the fact that I have kids and you don't, but really it is very hard to do those kinds of things once you have some kids.

[Draconis]

I think it is pretty ironic that you make a scapegoat out of scapegoating. This seems to me to be more of a case of a tragedy in the sense that there is no scapegoat, not even the concept of scapegoating itself can be used to promote a didacticism.


I think you are mayhaps reading too much into my statement.

I am moreso questioning the facet of why the fuck no one did anything, instead making a scapegoat out of scapegoating. Though I am quite sure one might read my statement as being such, as you have. We can sit there and point fingers and question all we like, as we as humans tend to do. It sadly, will not change much.

I agree, this entire ordeal is a Tragedy, and it is even moreso Tragic that others would sit there and question the nature of what was posted upon Penny Arcade by the Stepmom as even being Valid.

Put simply, the world is just so many levels of fucked up nowadays it isn't even a laughing matter.

[camberiu]

And you are trying to stretch that into murder.

Nice.

Me? No, I am not trying to stretch anything. Maybe the kid is just rotten inside and there was nothing that anyone could have done. But I do find interesting how people automatically take sides so quickly, without acknowledging all the assumptions that need to be made to get to the conclusion that the kids was really just born "bad to the bone".

1st Assumption: That the letter is legit. That the step mom actually has the time and disposition to read (and reply to) a PA posting while her step son could potentially be facing 1st degree murder chargers.

2nd Assumption: The letter being legit, that the step mom is not omitting any relevant piece of information. How likely is she to admit on a letter to PA that her husband (or herself) might have been abusive and neglectful toward the kid? How like are parents to write to PA (or any other place) and say that they were bad parents, that they did not do all they could or that they might have not given their children all the attention and love that they deserved?

Could it all be true? It certainly could, but honestly, how likely is that? How often do we meet people that are evil just for being evil, with no past baggage underneath? Even Ted Bundy had a history of childhood neglect and abuse. Anyone is free to take this story at face value, take the leap of faith and simply assume that the kids was just rotten and the parents truly did everything they could. Maybe that is the truth. But forgive me if I am not fully convinced based solely on the little (or no) evidence presented so far.

[Wasson_]

I think you are mayhaps reading too much into my statement.


LOL...mayhaps...

that's a great word!

I mean not only is saying that to EternalGamer funny, "Mayhaps" is even better...lol..

[GunnyMo]

1st Assumption: That the letter is legit. That the step mom actually has the time and disposition to read (and reply to) a PA posting while her step son could potentially be facing 1st degree murder chargers.



Why does everyone keep saying "if she had the time". What the hell else would she be doing? Unless it is celebrity justice, the American Judicial System is slower than molasses. All she can do is hurry up and wait.

The letter smacks of truth to me. 100%, probably not but certainly enough to point out that the kid was fucked from birth. Are we so desperate to put video games completely and utterly in the clear from blame that we automatically discount someone's truth? "Video games didn't do it so the parents must have beat him!" Nope. Child abuse and neglect are not the sole reasons people are sociopaths. Ted Bundy was a complete psycho with or without bad parenting, my friends. Do you think Stalin would have been a much happier person if his parents had been more loving? Doubtful.

[bean19]

Go read "In Cold Blood" by Truman Capote. There are crazy people out there. These people have always been around and we will always have them.

Our system, when it works (and it does quite often), is actually good at preventing a lot of this. We have treatment programs for people who are abused (and studies show that abuse does not lead to extremely violent or sexual crime - that is a disproved theory - it can lead to behavioral disorders and this can lead to violent acts - but they don't show a greater inclination to commit murder or rape) and for people who simply have behavioral disorders. Many times therapy can and does work.

Sometimes it doesn't.

But it isn't because of video games or bad parenting. It is because there are broken people out there, as well as people who simply make very bad decisions.

[shnastybiznastic]

You know, having read that (regardless weather it's true or not), I hope the kid gets some help. It would be a shame for a sick person to be refused treatment because they committed a (fairly heinous) crime.

[bean19]

GunnyMo - I put aside the issue of whether or not is true and spoke to the letter's sentiment, but if you do want to talk about this issue, then I have to say that it doesn't meet any standard of proof. We have nothing to validate it and we do not have an oppositional response or fact finding of any kind. It's unvalidated emotional hearsay.

People are correct to doubt it.

[Wasson_]

Do you think Stalin would have been a much happier person if his parents had been more loving? Doubtful.

You know something?

Both Hitler and Stalin had somewhat similar up bringings, overprotective mothers, abusive to semi-abusive fathers. Stalin in particular...I'm pretty sure at least. Granted, both men changed their names to distance themselves from their past...They were definitely not men who would have took pleasure in talking about their childhood...

[bean19]

You know, having read that (regardless weather it's true or not), I hope the kid gets some help. It would be a shame for a sick person to be refused treatment because they committed a (fairly heinous) crime.

fairly heinous? Is there a bigger crime than murder (besides mass murder)?

[camberiu]

To the folks who:

--Believe with 100% certainty that the letter is legit

AND

--Believe with 100% certainty that the step mom is being fully honest

I have nothing to argue against. If it is all true, the kid is 100% rotten. I just find it interesting how people quickly assume that it is all true, that is all.

[rein]

To the folks who:

--Believe with 100% certainty that the letter is legit

AND

--Believe with 100% certainty that the step mom is being fully honest

I have nothing to argue against. If it is all true, the kid is 100% rotten. I just find it interesting how people quickly assume that it is all true, that is all.

You appear to assume it is fake. I give the guys at PA enough credit to think that they would at least try to validate the letter before posting it on the site. If you are assuming it is fake, it is no different than others assuming it is legit. Honestly, it is probably some where in between. It really doesn't matter. In the end, nothing excuses the behavior of this kid and his friends.

[Rakael]

You know it's easier to say that then it is to actually pull it off. I was at a children hospital with my son the other day and while we were waiting I was sitting next to a guy whose kid was a complete vegetable, in a wheelchair/bed arms spread out, no eye movement. Didn't acknowledge anything the entire time we waited, probably suffered some serious brain damage in a car accident of something. And you sit there as a rational human being going, "You know you should really pull the plug in this kid. You're just destroying your life, and the life of your family to keep alive something that on the inside is for all intents and purposes dead." But you can't do it, they just trudge through it, because they can't bring themselves to be rational when it's your own child. Which is why it is so hard, no matter how bad a kid is to do the rational thing: Throw them out, hurt them, confine them, work very hard to get them in jail.

I don't mean to lord over you the fact that I have kids and you don't, but really it is very hard to do those kinds of things once you have some kids.

Oh it most likely won't be as easy as I may think, and you may be right in the thought that my softie ass wouldn't do it at all. I do tend to be overly forgiving. I will only know once I have kids. I do know that if I acted like that though, my dad really would have kicked my ass. No questions asked. Not that my father was harsh or anything, but he did expect decent behavior and most of all, respect. He nearly loosened my teeth once for smarting off to my mother, and ya know what, I would have deserved it too.

[GWhite]

Does anyone live in the area, of the murder, that can verify any of the facts? I am to some extent willing to believe the story of the step-mother. There is however no proof pertaining to the murderer's prior actions nor those of his parents.

If we do take the allegations at face value the local criminal justice system has some explaining to do. That kid should have been put away long ago. Granted domestic situations are borderline impossible to deal with.

[Loganrapp]

Sociopaths have problems with the actual chemistry and make-up of their brains, it isn't something that you can create by parenting.


From what I've learned in my college Psychology classes - thus admitting that I'm not even that learned in such - you can actually change your brain chemistry over time through experiences and substance abuse.

But, beings I posted a similar one, it's clear that I thought the letter was compelling enough to merit review.

As for whether or not it's real - she didn't "post to every website."

If you actually read the Goddamn thing, you'd know that she professed to being a PA reader for many years. That is why she chose PA specifically, because it was her demographic, and because that demographic notoriously puts the blame squarely on the shoulders of the parents.

To me, it seems quite real, as Gabe adjusted his position in response, and something tells me he followed up on this to confirm this wasn't bullshit. I mean, really. I don't think Gabe's the type to post any old letter.

[Exodus]

*shrugs* I believe the letter. Of all the things that are possible and impossible this is one that is very much believable.

I demand justice for my video games and I'll be damned if some idiot kid is going to ruin the industry.

[camberiu]

You appear to assume it is fake. I give the guys at PA enough credit to think that they would at least try to validate the letter before posting it on the site. If you are assuming it is fake, it is no different than others assuming it is legit. Honestly, it is probably some where in between. It really doesn't matter. In the end, nothing excuses the behavior of this kid and his friends.


I do not assume anything, I simply follow the scientific/investigative method that is based in two core principles:

1) Occam's razor
2) Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidences

Occam's razor principle states that when trying to explain something, people should make as few assumptions as possible. In this case, people are coming to conclusions that are already requiring lots of assumptions.
Extraordinary claims do require extraordinary evidences. The claim that a parent exposed some very personal details about family behavior related to a 1st degree murder case on a computer game comic book website is pretty extraordinary (to say the least), since it certainly does not happen everyday nor is it something that most people would normally expect. However, no "extraordinary" evidence is presented. Does it mean that it is false? No. But the scientific method (you know, the method that made planes, the internet and computer games possible) dictates that people should be skeptical when faced with these types of scenarios. Are you free to take a leap of faith? You sure are, but be aware that you are not NOT following sound methodology by doing that.

[shnastybiznastic]

fairly heinous? Is there a bigger crime than murder (besides mass murder)?
Under the US justice system, there are various degrees of murder. This particular instance would not be considered very high up the "murder chain" due to the fact that it was (apparently) not premeditated.

I do believe that murder is a horrible offense, but it seemed worthwhile to moderate my language in order to reference the fact that under the applicable legal system, there are crimes that carry a heavier punishment.

[KingGorilla]

You know something?

Both Hitler and Stalin had somewhat similar up bringings, overprotective mothers, abusive to semi-abusive fathers. Stalin in particular...I'm pretty sure at least. Granted, both men changed their names to distance themselves from their past...They were definitely not men who would have took pleasure in talking about their childhood...
I prefer to talk about Serial Killers(I know them better). Jeffry Dahmer was raised in a affluent presbyterian home, graduated High School, entered the Army. John Wayne Gacy was from a loving midwerstern home, wife, 2 daughters, took care of his alzheimer's raddled mother, made good money as a self embloyed general contracter, was active in local politics. Ed Gein, military family, Christian values, small town upbringing. We all know about the McVeigh's family, and how he was raised. And if you want to hear a fascinating story learn more about Ralph Tortorici and what he did in Albany NY.

[shnastybiznastic]

I prefer to talk about Serial Killers(I know them better). Jeffry Dahmer was raised in a affluent presbyterian home, graduated High School, entered the Army. John Wayne Gacy was from a loving midwerstern home, wife, 2 daughters, took care of his alzheimer's raddled mother, made good money as a self embloyed general contracter, was active in local politics. Ed Gein, military family, Christian values, small town upbringing. We all know about the McVeigh's family, and how he was raised. And if you want to hear a fascinating story learn more about Ralph Tortorici and what he did in Albany NY.
You know, I'm really glad that I finally got private DNS, Tor, and transport encryption up since you have me bombing wikipedia about serial killers.

[captainstrombosis]

You know, I'm really glad that I finally got private DNS, Tor, and transport encryption up since you have me bombing wikipedia about serial killers.

Hahaha I was thinking something similar.

[TragicComic]

You know, this whole "the kid is broken" thing is such a load of crap. I've got a kid like that. A total nightmare (stepson) of an 11 year old. And you know what? It's my own damn fault. I know how to help him, I know what works, but it's hard, it's by far the hardest thing I've ever done in my life (and I've shipped 16 video games, remodeled a home and lost 60 lbs, so I know hard).

And you want to know why it's so hard? Because the person you are helping to create, doesn't care and won't tell you that he's thankful for another 20 years. Doing anything without positive feedback is hard.

Most of the time I just want to give up, and sometimes I do, I throw my hands in the air and say "screw this, it's not my responsibility anyway" . But, then I think, we're this kids only hope, so I get back in there and do my best.

Now this woman said that she hated this kid. HATED. You don't hate a kid and think that it doesn't have an impact.

There's only one way to raise kids and it's just like everything else in life. TIME ON TASK. If it's not working out, then work harder.

Any parent that says "I've tried everything and nothing works" clearly didn't try spending more time with their kids.

If you have a fucked up kid, quit your job, move in with your parents, grandparents, whatever, move to a cheaper town, sell your car, do whatever it takes to spend every possible minute with them and if that's too hard for you, then to fucking bad. You created this life, it's your goddamn responsibility. Period. There's no taking it back, if that little monster kills someone then the blood is on YOUR hands, after all if it weren't for your sperm and her egg, that monster wouldn't be here.

Think if it this way, if you built a homicidal killing robot, the state would throw you in prison, but hey, you raise a homicidal lunatic, well, hell, sometimes you just get a bad one, better luck next time.


ARRGHHH...

ok, sorry about the rant... going to my happy place..

[kaddar]

1) Occam's razor
2) Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidences



I think the thing is though, many people here are following occam's razor, but they have different value judgments for the number of assumptions on each side.


edit: reworded

[Disgustipated]

Whoo boy, I love this broken homes shit. It's fucking beautiful, really. Social workers, Child Protective Services, Adult Protective Services... why do we even have these useless fucking agencies? They don't do anything for kids/parents.

Yeah, I'm going off on a tangent here, it's just my way of saying "I understand all of this shit and I wish I could tell you guys how close it hits to home."

[TrackZero]

Interesting letter. Just furthers my position that this kid should be put down, he's a waste of time, space and resources at this point. Many better people have died for a lot less.

[ilian]

that kid sounds like 80% of the people I went to highschool with.

[J3DI]

Wow, I'm coming in late on this one... And as a member of those useless fucking agencies
It is not nor has it ever been the job of a social worker to raise people's children. This child is a criminal, therefore should be directed to local law officials. What it sounds like to me is that external forces outside the home had more influence than the parents did e.g. school, friends, drugs, etc.


I felt that I needed to defend the boy’s parents. His mother and father and I did absolutely everything we could think of to try to keep this kid in line.

In my opinion as a social worker... no where in her letter did I see that they beat his ASS!!! (Of course I could never say that to my clients but still...) IMO he needed a good ol' spankin'. Starting probably about 8 years ago

[GunnyMo]

Interesting letter. Just furthers my position that this kid should be put down, he's a waste of time, space and resources at this point. Many better people have died for a lot less.

Damn straight.

Saying he needs "help" is ludicrous. You don't treat people like this; you eliminate them for the greater good. Sadly, under US law, criminals have all the rights. So have no fear! He'll be back on the streets in a few years to ruin more lives. Keep the faith!

[Disgustipated]

Wow, I'm coming in late on this one... And as a member of those
It is not nor has it ever been the job of a social worker to raise people's children. This child is a criminal, therefore should be directed to local law officials. What it sounds like to me is that external forces outside the home had more influence than the parents did e.g. school, friends, drugs, etc.




In my opinion as a social worker... no where in her letter did I see that they beat his ASS!!! (Of course I could never say that to my clients but still...) IMO he needed a good ol' spankin'. Starting probably about 8 years ago

Let me ask you a question, are you a part of CPS? If so, how many children do you actually "save"? Or do you know how many of those children actually get the help they need? Which agency do you work for?

[J3DI]

Let me ask you a question, are you a part of CPS? If so, how many children do you actually "save"? Or do you know how many of those children actually get the help they need? Which agency do you work for?


You sound like a spy trying to get information... "Who does #2 work for!!!"
CPS no, I may go into that division in a couple of years. I used to work for a residential counseling agency though, right now I'm at United Way (trying to become well rounded in social services).

For the time that I was there of the children that came in (about 8 every two weeks)to the residential, I'd say that about 70-80% got the help that they needed. Many times it was because the parents were simply asses themselves and blamed all their problems on their children (I could tell you some stories . . . People seem to fail to realize though that children are people too, getting help or being "saved" can only occur if that person wants to be.

[TrackZero]

Damn straight.

Saying he needs "help" is ludicrous. You don't treat people like this; you eliminate them for the greater good. Sadly, under US law, criminals have all the rights. So have no fear! He'll be back on the streets in a few years to ruin more lives. Keep the faith!

Ugh, that was my thought as well. I can already see him getting out 10 years from now (for good behaviour, re: we're out of jail space), hunting down his 'good' brother and making his life a living hell.

[TrackZero]

You sound like a spy trying to get information... "Who does #2 work for!!!"


+1 for the funny man.

[Rirath]

I Don't think some Jackass would crank out 1000+ words on a whim.

Really? How many of us jackasses around here are willing to write 1,000+ posts on a whim?

The letter smacks of truth to me. "Smacks of truth"? That's quite some test you've got there. I'll continue being a skeptic and continue avoiding the trend of taking anything from Gabe and Tycho as word from on high.

Saying he needs "help" is ludicrous. You don't treat people like this; you eliminate them for the greater good.

I get farther and farther away from respecting your opinions with every post some days. :(

Now this woman said that she hated this kid. HATED. You don't hate a kid and think that it doesn't have an impact.

Damn good point.

If you have a fucked up kid, quit your job, move in with your parents, grandparents, whatever, move to a cheaper town, sell your car, do whatever it takes to spend every possible minute with them and if that's too hard for you, then to fucking bad. You created this life, it's your goddamn responsibility. Period. There's no taking it back, if that little monster kills someone then the blood is on YOUR hands, after all if it weren't for your sperm and her egg, that monster wouldn't be here.

Think if it this way, if you built a homicidal killing robot, the state would throw you in prison, but hey, you raise a homicidal lunatic, well, hell, sometimes you just get a bad one, better luck next time.

This will probably get glossed over and ignored because it's not the typical Carebare response these types of stories get, but man do you ever make one heck of an argument.

I'm not saying I agree 110%, the kid does seem to have terrible issues and knew exactly what buttons to push to make things even worse for the parents who tried to help him... but unlike a lot of people around here I can see shades of gray just fine.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Really? How many of us jackasses around here are willing to write 1,000+ posts on a whim?

...None. The longest post I think i've read was Food Nipple's review of trauma center, and I think it was about the same length as this. Nothing else even comes close.

I don't think DIVORCE is the root cause of his problems, but I think an ugly divorce, along with a unhealthy family situation BEFORE the divorce, might be enough to move the kid from vandal/drug user to more serious crimes. I cannot deny AT ALL that the kid would have to have severe mental problems to start with - but there could definately be factors with his birth mother, who we know very little about from this article - or the father, even.

That being said, I don't understand why nobody hit the kid, dangit.

[phantomhitman]

im sure i can link mightbe to this case...

;)

[Dakar]

You know, this whole "the kid is broken" thing is such a load of crap. I've got a kid like that. A total nightmare (stepson) of an 11 year old. And you know what? It's my own damn fault. I know how to help him, I know what works, but it's hard, it's by far the hardest thing I've ever done in my life (and I've shipped 16 video games, remodeled a home and lost 60 lbs, so I know hard).

And you want to know why it's so hard? Because the person you are helping to create, doesn't care and won't tell you that he's thankful for another 20 years. Doing anything without positive feedback is hard.

Most of the time I just want to give up, and sometimes I do, I throw my hands in the air and say "screw this, it's not my responsibility anyway" . But, then I think, we're this kids only hope, so I get back in there and do my best.

Now this woman said that she hated this kid. HATED. You don't hate a kid and think that it doesn't have an impact.

There's only one way to raise kids and it's just like everything else in life. TIME ON TASK. If it's not working out, then work harder.

Any parent that says "I've tried everything and nothing works" clearly didn't try spending more time with their kids.

If you have a fucked up kid, quit your job, move in with your parents, grandparents, whatever, move to a cheaper town, sell your car, do whatever it takes to spend every possible minute with them and if that's too hard for you, then to fucking bad. You created this life, it's your goddamn responsibility. Period. There's no taking it back, if that little monster kills someone then the blood is on YOUR hands, after all if it weren't for your sperm and her egg, that monster wouldn't be here.

Think if it this way, if you built a homicidal killing robot, the state would throw you in prison, but hey, you raise a homicidal lunatic, well, hell, sometimes you just get a bad one, better luck next time.


ARRGHHH...

ok, sorry about the rant... going to my happy place..

This is a great post and the bolded part is especially important. There is no way you actually hate a child and they don't know. There is no way you hate a child and they don't care. There is no way you hate a child and it doesn't affect them. She said she was 29 in her letter. That means she's helping to raise a kid only 12 years her junior who she actually says she hates. Then there's the fact she says she's been with the dad for 7 years. Meaning his dad left his mother for a 22 year old who hates him. Then you look at the fact she wrote a letter to a webcomic airing out personal details in an already extremely public situation. I think it's a pretty safe bet to say the kid was fucked up AND she was a shitty shitty "parent".

[TheFlyingOrc]

This is a great post and the bolded part is especially important. There is no way you actually hate a child and they don't know. There is no way you hate a child and they don't care. There is no way you hate a child and it doesn't affect them. She said she was 29 in her letter. That means she's helping to raise a kid only 12 years her junior who she actually says she hates. Then there's the fact she says she's been with the dad for 7 years. Meaning his dad left his mother for a 22 year old who hates him. Then you look at the fact she wrote a letter to a webcomic airing out personal details in an already extremely public situation. I think it's a pretty safe bet to say the kid was fucked up AND she was a shitty shitty "parent".

Except she says "I don't think I've ever hated anyone, but this kid makes my blood boil." I might be arguing semantics, but she distinctly says she doesn't hate him.

I personally had never hated anyone until last year!

[Rommel]

If this letter is true we have on our hands a true, honest to God, born sociopath. They're rare, but not unheard of. And I say on our hands, because he's now turned his evil on our passion.

[Disgustipated]

You sound like a spy trying to get information... "Who does #2 work for!!!"
CPS no, I may go into that division in a couple of years. I used to work for a residential counseling agency though, right now I'm at United Way (trying to become well rounded in social services).

For the time that I was there of the children that came in (about 8 every two weeks)to the residential, I'd say that about 70-80% got the help that they needed. Many times it was because the parents were simply asses themselves and blamed all their problems on their children (I could tell you some stories . . . People seem to fail to realize though that children are people too, getting help or being "saved" can only occur if that person wants to be.

Fine. If you had the incompetent fucks at CPS stopping by your house every few years to fuck things up because they're idiots, and don't give a shit about helping anyone, maybe you'd fucking interrogate every social worker you stumbled across too.

I realize that perhaps you're not one of their ilk, but I say if you truly want to help people, go into it with a full heart. And if you can't help people, don't do things that make it worse just because you have the power to.

[Sloth]

seems odd that the cops and everyone would believe the kid when he said he was abused. If this kid had the record the letter claims, no one would be so gullible as to believe him, especially cops. I could see some liberal tea bagger believing it, but cops hear lies all the time. That part of the letter just doesn't jive.

[DaXIthR]

This will probably get glossed over and ignored because it's not the typical Carebare response these types of stories get, but man do you ever make one heck of an argument.

I'm not saying I agree 110%, the kid does seem to have terrible issues and knew exactly what buttons to push to make things even worse for the parents who tried to help him... but unlike a lot of people around here I can see shades of gray just fine.

As soon as I got past his first paragraph, the whole time I was thinking...

"Man, this futhamucka getter get the hell off his computer and go play with that child!!"

If you feel like your kid is potentially someone who literally kills for fun, please spend less time lurking and posting on EvAv, and go raise that futhamucka.

[J3DI]

Fine. If you had the incompetent fucks at CPS stopping by your house every few years to fuck things up because they're idiots, and don't give a shit about helping anyone, maybe you'd fucking interrogate every social worker you stumbled across too.

I realize that perhaps you're not one of their ilk, but I say if you truly want to help people, go into it with a full heart. And if you can't help people, don't do things that make it worse just because you have the power to.

I'm obviously not in it for the money . . . :( Nor the pleasantries I get from people when they find out I'm a social worker :rolleyes: Most simply ask, "So you take people's kids?" :o

[motor]

Whoo boy, I love this broken homes shit. It's fucking beautiful, really. Social workers, Child Protective Services, Adult Protective Services... why do we even have these useless fucking agencies? They don't do anything for kids/parents.

Yeah, I'm going off on a tangent here, it's just my way of saying "I understand all of this shit and I wish I could tell you guys how close it hits to home."

Of course we don't have 1000 threads a month about the people they do help, just one about the kid that got through the system. We have organizations like this for a reason, sure they may be inefficient, but it is in the state's interest (our interest) to have a group of people that try to prevent this shit from getting worse when kids and families are on the wrong track. Could they do better? We all can. But are they needed? Yes. You want to make a difference? Go work/volunteer for them. Figure out where they spend money poorly or make the wrong decisions and try to fix it. Don't just take the easy way of hearing about one bad case out of thousands and write them off. I'm proud I live in a society that has measures in place to take care of it's own (now that doesn't mean I like it when people take advantage of the system, I'm a realistic liberal), especially children.

[motor]

You know, this whole "the kid is broken" thing is such a load of crap. I've got a kid like that. A total nightmare (stepson) of an 11 year old. And you know what? It's my own damn fault. I know how to help him, I know what works, but it's hard, it's by far the hardest thing I've ever done in my life (and I've shipped 16 video games, remodeled a home and lost 60 lbs, so I know hard)..

Good luck, my uncle had the exact same situation. His son, my cousin starting running with a very bad crowd, and he did the same things your doing (moved to a different part of town, cut down the amount of work he did, spent a ton of time with the kid) and it worked. My cousins in his mid twenties now, went to college, works a great job and is a great kid. Hopefully the same thing happens with you.

I agree that a lot of "broken" kids are really fixable, and I think that the assumption that we should all work with. But the nature of this crime and the behavior described in this letter, if accurate, makes me think that this kid falls into that VERY small percentage of really broken kids. What to do? I don't know. Maybe someone like this needs to be in jail for several years to see if they can mature and if not, stay in jail for the rest of their lives.

[Disgustipated]

Of course we don't have 1000 threads a month about the people they do help, just one about the kid that got through the system. We have organizations like this for a reason, sure they may be inefficient, but it is in the state's interest (our interest) to have a group of people that try to prevent this shit from getting worse when kids and families are on the wrong track. Could they do better? We all can. But are they needed? Yes. You want to make a difference? Go work/volunteer for them. Figure out where they spend money poorly or make the wrong decisions and try to fix it. Don't just take the easy way of hearing about one bad case out of thousands and write them off. I'm proud I live in a society that has measures in place to take care of it's own (now that doesn't mean I like it when people take advantage of the system, I'm a realistic liberal), especially children.

Amusing. I respect your opinion, but you have no idea where I'm coming from. I'm not like you, I'm not just hearing about one of those cases. I am one of the cases, and they did nothing for me or my family, just made things worse.
Perhaps it's just the region where I live, but I believe that trusting these government agencies to help is asking for trouble, considering they're not always looking to do the right thing.

[Disgustipated]

I'm obviously not in it for the money . . . :( Nor the pleasantries I get from people when they find out I'm a social worker :rolleyes: Most simply ask, "So you take people's kids?" :o

Well then I wish you luck and I hope, when you have the power to do the right thing, that you do it. And help, not harm. Because what is power if you abuse it? I'm not sure any good-hearted person would keep that power if it meant more harm than good.

[motor]

Amusing. I respect your opinion, but you have no idea where I'm coming from. I'm not like you, I'm not just hearing about one of those cases. I am one of the cases, and they did nothing for me or my family, just made things worse.
Perhaps it's just the region where I live, but I believe that trusting these government agencies to help is asking for trouble, considering they're not always looking to do the right thing.

You have me there, luckily my family life was very good. And it's difficult to get across in text exactly what I'm trying to get at, I'm certainly not naive enough to think that these organization are anywhere near perfect, but when you have a newsgroup filled in large part with young men trying to outdo each other, I think the brazen, "We should just put a bullet in the back of their heads! Did I mention how drunk I got last night!" can get a little thick. I'm just trying to balance that with the small amount of experience I have from volunteering and friends and extended family that these agencies also help a lot of people out. Certainly not all, but definitely more then the number of people they fail to catch and the number they hurt. I don't think it all an elaborate racket and I don't think the world would be a better place if these agencies didn't exist.

[TrackZero]

This will probably get glossed over and ignored because it's not the typical Carebare response these types of stories get, but man do you ever make one heck of an argument.

I'm not saying I agree 110%, the kid does seem to have terrible issues and knew exactly what buttons to push to make things even worse for the parents who tried to help him... but unlike a lot of people around here I can see shades of gray just fine.

Blaming the parents to that degree indicates a full belief in "nuture" and that there's no acceptance that nature may have played a part in this. Is it such a stretch to consider the idea that maybe he was physically damaged in his brain? Sometimes no matter how you raise someone, you can't get around physical (odd, but appropriate term) handicaps.

[Disgustipated]

You have me there, luckily my family life was very good. And it's difficult to get across in text exactly what I'm trying to get at, I'm certainly not naive enough to think that these organization are anywhere near perfect, but when you have a newsgroup filled in large part with young men trying to outdo each other, I think the brazen, "We should just put a bullet in the back of their heads! Did I mention how drunk I got last night!" can get a little thick. I'm just trying to balance that with the small amount of experience I have from volunteering and friends and extended family that these agencies also help a lot of people out. Certainly not all, but definitely more then the number of people they fail to catch and the number they hurt. I don't think it all an elaborate racket and I don't think the world would be a better place if these agencies didn't exist.

I am curious if you can agree that the world would be a better place if these shit-soaked agencies had a major shake-down and reworking, with, y'know, an emphasis on, shit, I dunno, helping people?

Could work. But who gives a shit enough to try it?

[TrackZero]

That being said, I don't understand why nobody hit the kid, dangit.

Because he was raised in THIS generation:

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/3565/barneyop9.jpg

I remember at the time saying "those kids are going to be fucked up". Taking "time outs". It's called a spanking, just do it.

[TrackZero]

seems odd that the cops and everyone would believe the kid when he said he was abused. If this kid had the record the letter claims, no one would be so gullible as to believe him, especially cops. I could see some liberal tea bagger believing it, but cops hear lies all the time. That part of the letter just doesn't jive.

Agreed, that part seemed very strange to me too. Cops are used to being lied to all day, they're not fools.

[Skyelan]

The kid is a fucking shit who's just taking up space and should get the death penalty because he crossed the line, but I love how a couple people are using that as a platform to endorse the concept of Euthenasia.

Cause if a toy is broken, you just throw in in the garbage, right? Why shouldn't humans be the same way?

I would love the ability to play judge and jury and just 'pull the plug' on any kid whose only crime was being born in a way no one would ask for. :D

Mind you, if they've actually done something fucked up like killed someone, by all means, they deserve what they get.

[Manzy]

Now this woman said that she hated this kid. HATED. You don't hate a kid and think that it doesn't have an impact.



I thought the same way as well. You aren't going to have a positive effect hanging around someone you despise, especially if you are the person who is replacing the kid's mom.

[Heretic Machine]

I prefer to talk about Serial Killers(I know them better). Jeffry Dahmer was raised in a affluent presbyterian home, graduated High School, entered the Army. John Wayne Gacy was from a loving midwerstern home, wife, 2 daughters, took care of his alzheimer's raddled mother, made good money as a self embloyed general contracter, was active in local politics. Ed Gein, military family, Christian values, small town upbringing. We all know about the McVeigh's family, and how he was raised. And if you want to hear a fascinating story learn more about Ralph Tortorici and what he did in Albany NY.

...Oh come on dude, you did NOT just say that Ed Gein had a good childhood and home life?

[Manzy]

...Oh come on dude, you did NOT just say that Ed Gein had a good childhood and home life?

Hahah, I missed that one. Ed Gein is a prime example of having parents that go overboard with control over their kids. Damn this world! You can either not give a damn about your kids and they'll go batshit crazy or you can give too much of a damn and they'll go batshit crazy!

[DarkDaY]

thats a sad tale, and ofcourse shes right. American media will rape the shit out of this and the powers that be will eat it up. so will the ignorant.
and there be many.

[BadCRC]

Holy shit man...

[drakkarim]

interesting read. i hope the kids become the prison bitches every night for their whole stay. curious to see how fast the "i'll do whatever i want" attitude changes now.

sadly however, i think these are the people that need to be taken out back and shot.

[Achilles]

I thought the same way as well. You aren't going to have a positive effect hanging around someone you despise, especially if you are the person who is replacing the kid's mom.Well they had 2 kids, not just this messed up sociopath. The other kid was doing well according to the letter, so why stay in a situation where you have to deal with someone you hate to avoid leaving two people you probably love to fend for themselves? Well if you were in a similar situation what would you do.

Also I've been around people similar to this though not nearly as bad. Lying little brats that threaten to call child services and report physical abuse whenever their mom doesn't cook the meal they want that night. I’m not at all surprised she hated this kid, it's hard not to. Is it productive? Probably not. But it is the natural reaction to an evil person trying to destroy you every day of your life for a number of years. You pour that much of your energy into trying to help someone and the best you get is that they leave and terrorize someone else and eventually murder a homeless guy. Well some people are evil and need to be in jail or dead in my opinion.

For those of you who believe this letter is fake, do you have any evidence at all to refute anything about this letter? Even something as small as the kid’s height? My guess is that you don’t and you’re just calling her a liar for the hell of it. The PA guys would have her name and her email adress to check up on. Maybe they got snowed but I’m going to assume it’s accurate till one of the many details in the letter is refuted in some way.

[Furious Wang]

First, fuck Gabe for this:
"In my post I took the absolute extreme opposite approach. I laid blame completely on the parents and that was intentional. Penny Arcade is a satire site and people come here to laugh or get angry and that’s what we try to provide."

What is this bullshit? If you're going to take a "blame the parents" approach by all means go ahead. In the end the parent is ultimately responsible for the actions of the child. The fish stinks from the head and "blaming the parents" is a fairly reasonable stance. But, claiming the stance "Oh a person was murdered, blame the parents" as a way to get people to laugh or get people riled up is beyond the pale.

The fact is society produces some really fucked up people on a regular basis. However, rarely does this fucked-up-ness materialize while the person in question is a minor under the guardianship of others. When this does occur it can be attributed almost entirely to the guardians. Sure these parents can claim to be the best parents on earth and they did nothing wrong and tried everything in their power to "fix" the boy - what parent would claim otherwise? No one ever says, "You know what? I was a really shitty parent. I really fucked this kid up mentally and at this point theres nothing I can do to fix it?"

But ya. Gabe jumped immediately to the "Blame the Parent because I have to defend video game violence at all costs" mindset, then tried to recant after receiving a letter from the "perfect parent who did no wrong". Your morals are all over the place, Gabe. If you want to blame the parents, fine, go ahead. It is at least partially their fault.

If you want to blame just the kid, though, then fuck you. You've gotta place at least some of the blame elsewhere. Sure maybe the kid is some fucking psychopath but that shit rarely shows itself at such a young age. Kids may do some fucked up things and they may kill other kids sometimes while messing around or in some gang fight or brawl. But the deliberate murder of another human being by a child is almost unheard of. So, gabe and all you other motherfuckers out there that want to defend your precious videogame violence - you've got to lay the blame somewhere other than the kid. Theres a reasonable limit to violence that exists in video games, and if you're a developer out there making a game where killing homeless people or other random innocents is glorified or if you're someone having a blast playing a game like this you should take a good look at your morals and whether or not you are happy saying that you enjoy the simulated murder of innocents. If the answer is yes, then Fuck You. You are garbage and I don't want you in my society.

[Avy]

I thought the same way as well. You aren't going to have a positive effect hanging around someone you despise, especially if you are the person who is replacing the kid's mom.

I've seen this type of comment a lot, and it really, really bugs me. I'm sensing a lot of people have 'stepmother issues' and are simply putting the blame on a figure they themselves dislike for personal reasons.

She hates him now. At the time she entered the picture, I severely doubt she already had some crazy hate-on for this kid. More than likely she tried her damndest to love him and help the father raise his children. I'm even willing to bet after years and years of being harassed and emotionally abused/blackmailed by this kid, she didn't outright hate him. The hate part came out after he proved himself to be a worthless scum-bag and she finally felt she could admit what she'd been living with.

As for 'Oh, the police deal with this stuff, they wouldn't believe his lies!', that's also utter BS. Authority figures are pretty much forced to forced to follow a lot of bureaucratic red tape when it comes to claims of child abuse. If you ignore a child abuse claim when it's true, you're screwed. So they take the claims seriously, find no real evidence, but can't really do anything to the contrary so the claims are logged. Next instance of 'abuse' pops up, all the officer sees on the file is a history of abuse reports. It doesn't really look all that great on the parents, ya know?

[Avy]

If you want to blame just the kid, though, then fuck you. You've gotta place at least some of the blame elsewhere. Sure maybe the kid is some fucking psychopath but that shit rarely shows itself at such a young age. Kids may do some fucked up things and they may kill other kids sometimes while messing around or in some gang fight or brawl. But the deliberate murder of another human being by a child is almost unheard of.

Actually, it's not really that rare. There's quite a few cases of deliberate murder amongst children and young teens. And sociopathic behaviour does manifest itself at a very early age [in extreme violence, abuse against animals, pyromania, and other behaviours].

And how do you know we want you in our society, either?

[bapenguin]

Interesting letter. Just furthers my position that this kid should be put down, he's a waste of time, space and resources at this point. Many better people have died for a lot less.

Exactly. Sometimes we are too soft as a society thinking we are so high and mighty above things like that, but in the long run to protect ourselves and our future, drastic measures like that should be taken.

[bean19]

Damn straight.

Saying he needs "help" is ludicrous. You don't treat people like this; you eliminate them for the greater good. Sadly, under US law, criminals have all the rights. So have no fear! He'll be back on the streets in a few years to ruin more lives. Keep the faith!

Actually, under the U.S. law, criminals are punished very severely and have fewer rehabilitation programs than any other first world country. We have the largest percentage of our population living in prisons in the world.

Many Democrats (and some Republicans) would like to raise the amount we spend on rehabilitation - not to be cuddly nice with convicted criminals - but to save MONEY. It takes a lot less money to send someone to intensive therapy for a year, put them back out on parole where you require them to pay for their therapy (and lodgings, etc.) than it does to provide and care for a huge prison population.

Our justice system that determines guilt or innocence protects the rights of the accused - not the rights of the guilty.

The U.S focus on crimes is VENGEANCE - not prevention. If you've ever seen a prosecutor's closing arguments, they talk to the jury about the victim's suffering and if they mention prevention at all, it is simply to encourage incarceration - but this is always followed with an appeal for vengeance. . . "so that he can't have any more victims."

This is a 15 year old boy who is reported to continuously makes bad mistakes and who may have been the victim of child abuse or, in some ways worse, a poor role model. He may also have a medical disorder that could be treated through medicine. We just don't know. You shouldn't be so quick to give out death sentences based on one-sided, unvalidated hearsay.

I stick with my point that some people are just messed up. There have always been these people and they always will be around. Therapists should make this determination and people who can't be rehabilitated should be incarcerated indefinitely.

[DingBat]

For those of you who believe this letter is fake, do you have any evidence at all to refute anything about this letter? Even something as small as the kid’s height? My guess is that you don’t and you’re just calling her a liar for the hell of it. The PA guys would have her name and her email adress to check up on. Maybe they got snowed but I’m going to assume it’s accurate till one of the many details in the letter is refuted in some way.

I'll put my evidence that it's a fake up against your evidence that it's genuine, then we can judge.

Wait, what's that you say? There's NO evidence at all?

It kills me how people will question stories that are printed in newspapers (which I believe you should do) but will accept something like as gospel because it's posted on a web site they enjoy.

Some of you are letting your emotions get the better of you. That's not to say the story isn't true. I don't know. Neither do you.

[cppcrusader]

I can't tell if this was sarcasm. I'm assuming so.

If a divorce drives you to that, you got issues. My parents were divorced when I was young, but old enough to remember before and after. No huge deal really. I'm not wiping shit on the faces of bums.

And as the letter points out, he's got a sibling that turned out fine. I was going to pull the "To little too late" card until that paragraph. I can see them not being treated 100% the same, that's impossible, but to turn out so different if they were both chemically sound? No.

It was a little bit of sarcasm and a little bit of playing devil's advocate. Everybody deals with those kind of things differently. My folks got divorced when I was 22 and I ended up barely speaking to my mother for 8 months because of it.

I highly doubt it was the root of the problem. Personally I think this kid came out pissed off at the world and his only excuse for doing these things is being born. It's possible that a divorce could have been the catalyst that triggered the crazy that was already there, but if it wasn't that then something else would have done it down the road anyway.

[Trazzlo the Magnificant]

I agree. Unless Gabe got some really hard evidence that this is legitimate, it looks pretty suspicious. Still, the letter is really well written and even if it's a fake it can't be THAT far from the truth.


It only looks suspicious if you have never lived through it yourself. This is mental illness at its most powerful.

My father was severely schizophrenic, had clinical paranoia, and sociopathic. When you live in that situation on a daily basis, this letter written to the PA isn't hard to believe at all. Its a fairly clear account of exactly what daily life is like. It's well written, it has emotion attached, plenty of fear and pain. Its impossible to rationalize the irrational.

My father was no idiot, he had a PHd, he did his thing. The issue was that part of his brain were decaying due to a disease that nobody really understands. He was very much able to defend himself verbally. He could think things out; often much faster and deeper than people around him. He manipulated people at every opportunity. It was how he felt whole, and I was one of his favorite targets.

There is no rationalizing with someone with these sorts of mental illness. It is a lot like living a continuous game of russian roulette, in which you never know if you will be alive at the end of a conversation. The conversations never follow a clear path to doom; it's a sudden and spontaneous transition into uncontrolled and uncapped violence.

For example, one time my father threw a vodka bottle at us (3 children) with such force that the entire bottle was shattered, it knocked a large piece out of a very solid table, and completely covered us in glass. He had no control, no target, no limits, and extreme rage brought on by a childrens show we were watching together. Absolutely 0 advance notice; it was pure and spontaneous rage that was hyper powered. If that bottle would have hit one of us, it would have killed us. There was no aim in his rage; life and death were by pure chance. You didn't know at the start of a sentence whether his rage would kick in by the end of it; it might start with him completely at ease, happy, enjoying life. Then, by the end of the sentence pure, blistering hate and rage. Never at anything specific; but still extreme in power.

And, it immediately evaporated as well. He walked off laughing about something completely different, and never seemed to recall the incident. never cared, never wanted to get better. If you told him he needed help, he would say it is our problem, not his and told us to fuck right off.

He often tried to destroy other peoples lives. It felt good to him. He would manipulate them, change things around, mention things in passing that he knew would cause conflicts. He loved to destroy others work and relationships. Needless to say, he didn't have any of his own.

And, the authorities ALWAYS took his side, 100% of the time. Ever been in a war zone with a very, very insane person who has no grasp on reality at all, call the police and have them blow you off as a kid who should obey his fathers wishes? I was trying to decide if I had to kill my father, before he killed my brother, sister, mother, or myself. I needed help, I called, and they never even bothered to show up. I was 12 then.

I had to try to decide who I would be; the person who let my brother or sister die while I did nothing, or to try to do something; anything. But, what? Where do you go for help when people didn't believe you; in fact they would specifically go to my father and tell him what I said.

We ran, we hid. We lost all of our friends, since someone somewhere would always "feel for the lonely man" who told all sorts of sad, sad stories in which he was the innocent victim. They gave him our non-listed numbers, addresses, anything they had in order to "help the situation". And he would stalk us with that, knowing the police would never help out. If they showed up, he would instantly use his money for lawyers to "prove our mother kept us from him".

We were forced to visit him, even though the courts knew about his severe psychological issues; in court he was always the sad, innocent man. As soon as the doors closed, he showed us his power over us and laughed at the courts stupidity. Children existed for only one real reason he said, to service the sexual needs of their father.

And the police, courts, lawyers, psychologists, and psychiatrists all seemed to agree.

When did it finally change? When his illness progressed to the point where he aimed it at the courts, lawyers, psychologists, and psychiatrists. Suddenly, they all claimed "something has to be done!". These "professionals" are mostly desk jockies, who move files from one pile to the next. My fathers issues were not ones that could be solved; let alone believed. So, they always decided that the best solution was for the kids to solve it. I will never understand this thinking, but it isn't rare. It's my experience that it is the most common.

This kid needs psychological help, in a big way. He needs to stay in prison, its the only way to keep him safe from himself, others safe from him, and for him to remain on the meds he needs, and to have someone there to make sure he does.

This letter to the PA is not at all odd, weird, "out there", irrational, nor overstated, in my mind.

Frankly, it's likely that she left the worst parts out.

[AlfredT]

This may sound kinda cold... but did they try beating him within an inch of his life? I know its not exactly legal in America, but I mean you could tell him you were taking him on a "vacation" and taken him somewhere where life is cheap.

I don't condone abuse, but in certain cases, you really have to show a person in an undeniable way about the value of life. And as ironic as it may seem, people get a greater appreciation for life when their own life is placed in jeopardy. The same correlation can be said of pain and empathy.

[Trazzlo the Magnificant]

This may sound kinda cold... but did they try beating him within an inch of his life?

In that case, he will see himself as justified in having learned this behavior. He and his lawyers would use that over "video games". Its a much, much more powerful argument and he might still use it, since its going to be his word against theirs.

If he does use it, the trick is to see that it wasn't his first defense when it should have been. Instead he used the "video game" reason.

There doesn't have to be a reason for madness. If there was, it becomes rational. Rational madness doesn't exist, but asylums do.

Also, note something else. The PA letter and the reports of what the kid himself said are not in conflict. The only thing they disagree on is whether video games are the reason.

He didn't say that he didn't kill the homeless man; neither did the writer from PA. He didn't say that there was a reason for his murdering the man other than in hindsight, he played video games. He simply had the urge to kill, to exert power, and he saw the opportunity, and he did it.

Does he feel remorse? No, he simply blames it on something outside of himself. Something "outside" is always the cause of irrational behavior, simply because facing that it might be an issue "inside" of yourself is much, much more scary.

Why is it scary? Because then you can't even trust yourself. It means you have to face the irrationality, and that is a long, long process.

[Majster Wichajster]

The above story is really depressing. (EDIT: The one by Trazzlo the Magnificent.)

Whatever you think about the whole situation, one thing is for certain - the whole thing isn't a simple blame game that everybody plays, be it media or us (yes, us). I think Gabe had his shit handed to him and I can't blame him because how often do you hear what the people close to the person in question have to say about the situation? We're just throwing shit around like there's no tomorrow, some people say the kids is beyond fucked up (I'm kinda with them), others that it's the parents fault, and a few just lynch Gabe for his opinion on the matter at hand like it matters the most at the moment. We might never know the definite truth about the whole situation, but with that letter, be it true (I think it's true) or otherwise, we're closer to understanding what lead to this and what we should take from this to avoid such an outcome with our kids.

Quite frankly we could actually get to the bottom of this if we had people in the media who could do some competent reporting. Remember that thing with the guy who masturbated at the library? I only watched the skit on The Daily Show (since I live in Europe), so I can't exactly understand how bad it was, but the kid was constantly bugged by the reporter to a point that you really felt sorry for him, I felt sorry for him because really, flogging a dead horse like that for so long?

We could get to understand the problem better if somebody did a report, presented the story in a way that you could draw your own conclusions from it, whatever they may be, because there is something serious going on with kids these days that goes well beyond gaming, but it ends reported as a "HURRR GAMES KILL!" Which probably isn't the case if one would take some time to give more attention to the story.

But that would require "effort" and "research" for which I can't blame media. Oh look at how Tom Cruise is weird!

Disclaimer: I just want to say that I'm not implying that every kid is fucked up and we should just kill the fuckers before they kill us. No, I'm just stating that there are some problems with the upbringing of kids which would be easily solved if more attention was given to it instead of a "blame-fest" that seems to happen every time stories about game-violence pop up.

Fox, I think, had a bit about the DS and the dangers of picto-chat. It's good to warn parents about your kids giving away information like that or talking to strangers, but why the fuck did you put such a sensational spin on it? "DS? More like PeDoS!"

That was long.

[Achilles]

I'll put my evidence that it's a fake up against your evidence that it's genuine, then we can judge.

Wait, what's that you say? There's NO evidence at all?

It kills me how people will question stories that are printed in newspapers (which I believe you should do) but will accept something like as gospel because it's posted on a web site they enjoy.

Some of you are letting your emotions get the better of you. That's not to say the story isn't true. I don't know. Neither do you.Well the PA guys have their credibility on the line posting something like this. They also have her email adress and name as I mentioned, so they could look up where she lives and what relation she has to the kid in question. Which is to say that I have no information, but I put some faith in Penny Arcade not to post some random person's fabrication as fact. Also the idea that a 29 year old woman would be a gamer and read PA doesn't seem as far fetched as the way CNN was reporting the story.

[camberiu]

OK, this debate was a great learning experience for me. My conclusion is that in the end, the video game crowd is not much different than the anti-video game crowd.
Both are more than willing to draw very fast conclusion (and guilty verdicts) based on completely unverified data or testimonials from highly biased sources. There is very little skepticism, very little critical thought, very little questioning of sources, very little introspection about how one's feelings and prejudices could be clouding judgment.
The anti-video game crowd is quick to jump into the "blame games for everything" boat as soon as any highly biased and unscientific study points the finger at the gaming industry for all the ills of society.
And the gaming crowd? The gaming crowd does the EXACT SAME thing, automatically concluding that a kid is the soon of Satan himself (without being negatively influenced by anyone else) and should be summarily executed based SOLELY on an unverified letter sent to a COMIC STRIP website.
Is the kid evil to the core? Are the parents to blame? I do not know and I very much doubt that any of you do either. You are simply coming to conclusions based solely on hearsay and your own prejudices, just like the anti-gaming crowd that you like to criticize so much. Two different sides of the same coin, I guess.

[shnastybiznastic]

Words words words
I just want to thank you for making me feel less alone on this cold expanse of rationality. Perhaps together we can construct a tower to pay homage to our enormous brains. The only stipulation is that my brain-phallus be larger.

[Avy]

We ran, we hid. We lost all of our friends, since someone somewhere would always "feel for the lonely man" who told all sorts of sad, sad stories in which he was the innocent victim. They gave him our non-listed numbers, addresses, anything they had in order to "help the situation".

Thank you for being strong enough to share your story, Trazzlo. It was heart-breaking to read.

My biological grandfather, while in no way near as manipulative as your father was, pulled similar stunts. He's mentally ill and the most manipulative person I've ever met. My entire family has tried so hard to get away from him, and without fail, 'well-meaning' friends and neighbors will give him our information because we're just oh so evil for abandoning a poor, defenseless old man who just needs his family.

It's so hard for people outside of the situation to grasp that this is emotionally manipulative behaviour that can be turned on or off at will. The kid in the original article was probably amazingly convincing when he made his abuse claims, so no one questioned him. He knew he was working the system and perfectly cognizant of what he was doing.

Do parents have a responsibility to do the best they can do ensure their children are productive members of society who aren't going around murdering everyone in sight? Of course. But even the best parents can only do so much. And I think anyone scoffing and saying they 'didn't try hard enough', or suggesting they try to lock him up, drug him, have him committed to a group home...has clearly never lived with someone capable of being so emotionally abusive and manipulative. It's a lot harder than you think, sometimes damned near impossible.

[Dag-Sabot]

That my friends, is what we call a "sociopath".I just hope he gets tried as an adult. "In my day" kids like that would be beaten to within an inch of their lives by:

Parents->Teachers->Police->Jailors->Army->Penal battalion.

*Somewhere along the line even the dumbest idiot gets the idea. I hope the judge throws the book at him and his buddies.

[ewiggy]

Kids don't get born 'broken', kids get busted by what's around them. That's not to take away the childs potential responsibility for the crime, but for the rest of you asinine, wash-your-hand fucks, this whole 'must have been born bad' bullshit is a sorry fucking excuse for a totally bad parenting job by every adult that might have assumed that role, for however brief a time, in a child's life.

[Dag-Sabot]

You're right. It's our [societys] fault. LOL. Whether he was a good kid or bad, Society should have quietly dragged this kid out into the woods beaten him to a pulp.

[Skytram]

Amazing post in PA. Once again, they have re-established themselves as the voice of sanity in the video game world. We are fortunate to have them.

[ewiggy]

I'm guessing you are not too bright.

[theCurse]

Kids don't get born 'broken', kids get busted by what's around them. That's not to take away the childs potential responsibility for the crime, but for the rest of you asinine, wash-your-hand fucks, this whole 'must have been born bad' bullshit is a sorry fucking excuse for a totally bad parenting job by every adult that might have assumed that role, for however brief a time, in a child's life.
I guess people aren't born missing limbs or with diseases either.

Why is it so hard to understand that the brain is an organ that can be damaged or simply grown incorrectly?

The child should have been committed to an institution. The letter in question purports that the child was receiving psychiatric care. If the psychiatrists did not recognize the severity of the boy's condition, they are themselves partially to blame for his actions. From the letter, it appears the parents did what they could.

The reality of the situation may be different, but the concept of a "broken" human being is not "asinine."

[fitbabits]

I'm guessing you are not too bright.
Actually, three posts in to your EvAv career and I would posit that you are the one who's not too bright. I've looked at your limited post history and I have no doubt we can expect the same level of thoughtful and meaningful posts in the future.

[Bagger]

Writing three-page letters to gaming webcomics about your son....

Awesome parenting!!!

I'm sure the sort of woman who would put her family's business onto Penny Arcade has just dandy parental skills.

Her family's business is on the national news. Do you think it matters at this point? If she's been a PA fan, then it makes sense that she would respond to Gabe's comments. If it's a hoax, then it's a very detailed and well-written hoax. I don't see what bearing it has on her parenting abilities. Some kids are just born fucked up. Sounds like this kid is probably one of them.

[saulob]

oh my... what history. congrats PA for that letter/email... great job.

[Goronmon]

The gaming crowd does the EXACT SAME thing, automatically concluding that a kid is the soon of Satan himself (without being negatively influenced by anyone else) and should be summarily executed based SOLELY on an unverified letter sent to a COMIC STRIP website.You seem to do a pretty good job of proving your own point, though maybe that was your intention. I doubt you really spent much time coming to your "conclusion" anyways.

I have no reason to doubt the woman's e-mail, and it does support my thought from the original news post that the kid sounds like he has serious mental problems. So until I hear some evidence to the contrary it certainly seems like the kid really was just "broken". Beyond that there isn't much else I can say.

I do agree with whoever mentioned justice in the US being about "vengeance" more than anything. Though I would argue that in today's society, most people consider them to be the same thing.

[Conductor_Grey]

My older brother is exactly like this kid sans the handicap beatdown and murder. There will never be enough attention and control in the world that will satisfy them. You think it's bad being the parent. Try being the 'good' brother in comparision. I used to get beat up if my mother gave me a hug in front of him. It never ends and it won't for this kid until they find their match...and that's usually found in prison. Good luck to him.

[ewiggy]

Actually, three posts in to your EvAv career and I would posit that you are the one who's not too bright. I've looked at your limited post history and I have no doubt we can expect the same level of thoughtful and meaningful posts in the future.

And I look forward to providing you with that. Well done for the [almost] correct use of 'posit', and for that colossal number of posts. Get out much?

[Rakael]

And I look forward to providing you with that. Well done for the [almost] correct use of 'posit', and for that colossal number of posts. Get out much?

Welp, doubt you will last long.

[theCurse]

And I look forward to providing you with that. Well done for the [almost] correct use of 'posit', and for that colossal number of posts. Get out much?
That was a perfectly correct use of "posit."

Those were not correct uses of brackets or single quotes, however.

[Disgustipated]

And I look forward to providing you with that. Well done for the [almost] correct use of 'posit', and for that colossal number of posts. Get out much?

OH NO, COLOSSAL AMOUNT OF POSTS. E-GADS, AN ADMIN THAT INTERACTS WITH THE COMMUNITY? A TRAVESTY, SAY I!

Fgt

[Johan]

As a parent of five kids...a teacher of 70 kids...and a former counselor in a residential facility for emotionally/behaviorally troubled kids, I can say with some confidence (though not omniscience) that BOTH nature and nurture are at play in how children grow up.

I've worked with kids who were so damaged from family abuse that they ripped up their arms until the bled...chewed the inside of their mouths and spit blood at you...crapped their pants and hid the underwear in their rooms...etc., etc..

At the same time, I've also seen kids whose chemical composition in their bodies/brains was NOT what it should be, and it led to all kinds of strange and socially negative behaviors and outcomes.

Some kids are born messed up. Some kids are slowly nurtured into it. Both are true, and nobody can say to what degree, or which truly applies to this particular case and these kids, since that is entirely speculative.

[KingGorilla]

Hahah, I missed that one. Ed Gein is a prime example of having parents that go overboard with control over their kids. Damn this world! You can either not give a damn about your kids and they'll go batshit crazy or you can give too much of a damn and they'll go batshit crazy!
He loved his mother.

[MAbans]

I am not a parent so I can't really begin to understand what it may take so when I speak I will speak of that of someone who was rised by a single mother who knew her young boy would eventually be a strong man. My mother's rule was simple. instill the fear of god in me through her. Not in a religious sense buy growing up and well into my late teens I had this inherit fear of her. I'm 6'1 275 pounds with the shaped something similar to that of mashed potatos. My mother was 5'3 120. she made it clear that SHE was the parent and above all things respect had to come to her, period, it was her only role. If I acted up I got yelled, that didn't work, slapped and in the worst case I had a bat swung at me with the simple message that I will NEVER forget and we joke about to this day.

"I don't care how big you are mFer I will Fyou up!" In spanish of course.

This lady was crazy! NUTS! And not someone I could mess with until I came to the realization that I was a man and all that yelling stuff was enough and hack and a mutual respect was born as 2 adults. and with all the craziness that my mother had towards in her disciplinary ways, she always had my back. If I got in trouble in school, she'd back me up! Problems in my personal life! She was there, when I was dumb and got arrested for mouthing off to a cop for skating she bailed me out. She was strict but fair and someone I could depend on always and without question.

Parents now rather be friends with their children than parents which results in monsters like these. I'm not advocating beating kids because as crazy as my mother was I can count on 1 hand how many she ever had to put a whooping on my ass. But just the idea of what she could do kept me in line but parents of monsters like these now are soft and unwilling to do what's necessary to keep their children in line. It's a more complex issue of parenting that I don't want to bother getting on a soap box on but the monster did this because he know he could get away with and had NO fear of his parents. Kids HAVE to fear and respect their parents as THE ultimate authority figure in their lives, above all social authorities.

Parent have to leave all this other 2ndary stuff about living lives for themselves and live and focus their energies on kids. I'm 31 and have no kids because I am still too irresponsible and selfish to want to have one, but when I do my focus will no longer be on me but them.

If you can teach a dog to sit, you can teach a child to behave. No matter what the chemical composition of the child. I've seen it with my sister who is mentally disable and has done all the things "experts" said she would be unable to do. From speaking 2 (she speaks 3, eng, spanish and japanese) to riding a bike like normal kids.