Memorial Day Question

[if76]

Since it's a slow news weekend I'd like to pose the following question:

How much impact do you think the PS2 and Xbox had in propelling the dvd format? Do you think dvd's would be as ubiquitous as they are today if it weren't for these consoles or would they still be fighting for acceptance?

Also how much impact do you think the X360 and PS3 will have in propelling the market for HDTVs and perhaps blue-ray discs?

[lpmiller]

very little, since DVD was already on it's way. I mean, I see a dvd player on sale right now for 23 bucks, so...


As to the second, maybe a little again, but what will drive that is broadcast TV and unit cost.

[Royal Fool]

Although Sony claim the PS2 is the "world's most popular DVD player", I still think the DVD format wouldn't have had much problem penetrating itself into people's homes and become standard without the PS2. But it certainly helped sales initially, until people realized how utterly bad the console was for playing said DVDs.

I don't think the Xbox helped very much, since it required a seperate addon to unlock the functionality.

I have no idea about the new disc formats - I for one don't care about buying movies again for marginally better quality. But the new console will certainly help HDTV sales.

[sTubbs]

I think that the XBOX and PS2 certainly helped the DVD market, but I think that it would have become the dominant movie format regardless of those consoles. I expect to see more important impact with the next generation systems, particularly the PS3. The fact that the PS3 will ship with a Blu Ray drive almost guarantees that Blu Ray will be victorious over HD-DVD. At this point, I feel that Toshiba is simply being stubborn, as they have much fewer companies backing HD-DVD than Sony has backing Blu Ray, and Toshiba has no comparable hardware plans. With the PS3, Sony will have millions of Blu Ray players in homes immediately. Couple that with the fact that Blu Ray is the superior format, and I think it is safe to say that Blu Ray is going to be the successor to DVD.

As for HDTV, I believe that the increase in sales will be slight. I think that the average price of HDTV has to go through one more decrease before it truly is accepted. Right now, the average price of a true HDTV is sitting at about 1000 dollars, which is far too much for most people to consider. When sets that support 720p and 1080i start to sell for about 500 dollars, I can see HDTV significantly increasing in popularity. Until that happens, I do not think that the new consoles will increase HDTV sales very noticeably, especially since higher resolutions do not dramatically increase gameplay.

[Jetherik]

DVDs are already in the home market area. I think the real question is will game makers be using DVDs instead of CDs. I hope so. It is nice to have a single DVD then four CDs. If these consoles help, wonderful. I think they will.

[Heretic Machine]

Those consoles had very little to do with the DVD's popularity, and they will find the creating a new format like Blu-ray and trying to push it into the homes will see little success. The general consumer market isn't going to want a new format this soon, no matter how many games they catch with PS3's, it's not going to get the movies in the stores. There are still people out there with VHS's, the stores still sell the tapes, and now they want to force THREE formats onto the shelves? That's not even counting this half-assed UMD stuff.

[Metal Jesus]

I have two very good friends who originally bought the PS2 because it could also play DVDs and was to be their first DVD movie player. They are both more casual gamers...but it was a factor in their decision.

[jacktion]

The HD-DVD player in the PS3 is not going to be as significant a propellant towards buying as the DVD player was in the PS2. For two reasons.
1. It will make the console expensive as all hell, which will discourage people from buying it.
2. People are not going to see HD-DVD as significant an upgrade as the original DVD was from videotape. Videotape was obviously inferior and DVDs looked better and where easier to use and more reliable. HD-DVD is just a suped up DVD player, and most people will be satisfied with their regular DVD player.

[Nessus]

I might be in the minority, but every time I've gone to an electronics store that had HD TVs on display they never look that good. This could be due to lack of HD signal, but if they can't even get an HD signal for their display models, how useful are they going to be?

I mean, the way people talk about HD the difference is supposed to be night and day, but most of the HD sets I've seen seem to be struggling to even produce the same quality as high end CRT, let alone surpassing them.

The fact that they're all widescreen doesn't help, because while the image is wider, they need a significantly larger screen to produce an image as big as mid-size regular big screen CRT TVs.

I've also found that the LCD HD units invariably have too much contrast, though I love my LCD computer monitor. And the plasmas look a lot blurrier than I would have expected given the way everyone raves about them.

Has no one else had similar experiences? I fully recognize it could just be the stores I've been shopping at.

[bradlay]

Slim to none. DVD's are easier to produce, ship, stock and right protect than videotape. Plus, much sexier to own and therefore easier to market to the 18-36 year old male demographic. I never bought the xbox dvd upgrade and I doubt many others did.

[Fubl]

CRT still has a better contrast ratio compared to the other tvs. the problem with the demo models in stores is they have ONE Hd signal split between 25-50 some tvs. I just wish they made larger Crts i know weight is the main issue since my 34 in tv weighs more than i do at a whopping 200 lbs.

HD-dvd is going to take awhile to take off. Its going to take basically the end production of Standard Dvds for people to really upgrade. I think HD-dvd and blu ray will end up more like Laser disc or Betamax. Course it could always come down to what ever format Porn decides to use.....

[Pex-Corrh]

I don't think either had nearly as much effect as the $49 sales on DVD players (followed by the $19 specials last year).

[Deadend]

DVD sold good because it wasn't the higher video quality.

It was EVERYTHING else, same with tapes to CDs.
Suddenly, you could skip to any part, there were all these extra things, they took up less space, oh and the video looked better.

Now that is a major shift.

But regular to HD/Blu-ray? Just higher def. Now, if those geniuses can make a blu-ray disc that if put in a normal player, will be read as a normal DVD, but has the ability to do all this stuff in a blu-ray/HDTV setup, maybe the format can do good.

Of course, that is not going to happen, and most films are not shot in HD from what I hear, even though I could be wrong on that.

I think the PS2 helped the DVD market, as the first DVD I saw was on a PS2 back in 2000, and by 2002 had my own PS2, and a DVD player (as the PS2 does a shit job of it).

I hate how the PC industry handles DVDs, the absolute horrible support for DVD movies (ALL DVD software seems to suck, and wrapping your head around the idea that something so normal as a DVD needing special software is weird).

But, from a consumer POV, I think Blu-Ray can be the better format, as it has a larger capacity, compared to HD-DVD, which means more content and better quality. I am also sick of the companies fighting it out over the formats, as to me, its just them all being greedy, the origninal DVD format was a fucking miracle, as getting all the companies to work together on something, even if they all profit, is impossible.

[Kelegacy]

I don't think the Xbox helped very much, since it required a seperate addon to unlock the functionality.

Yeah, what the fuck was up with that? I DONT have a DVD player (not counting my PC) and use my PS2 for my movie watching. I'd use my Xbox but i have to pay to unlock that feature? WTF

[mister_slim]

I think the DVD playing helped the PS2 gain momentum, but hurt Sony's profits. It boosted the install base, but many of those owners bought very few games. No real effect on the Xbox.

I doubt that this upcoming generation will help HD movies replace DVDs. Either the next gen, or MS and Sony will start implementing broadband sales/rental. HDTV uptake will be increased a bit, but it will be more affected by price drops.
But regular to HD/Blu-ray? Just higher def. Now, if those geniuses can make a blu-ray disc that if put in a normal player, will be read as a normal DVD, but has the ability to do all this stuff in a blu-ray/HDTV setup, maybe the format can do good.

I think Toshiba has talked about doing this. Bottom layers are DVD and other layers are HD-DVD. Not sure though.

[if76]

Of course, that is not going to happen, and most films are not shot in HD from what I hear, even though I could be wrong on that.


Actually pretty much all movies (other than the new star wars movies) are shot on film. Film quality quality far surpasses that of HDTV.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

But regular to HD/Blu-ray? Just higher def. Now, if those geniuses can make a blu-ray disc that if put in a normal player, will be read as a normal DVD, but has the ability to do all this stuff in a blu-ray/HDTV setup, maybe the format can do good.

They've already made one (http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/portable-media/dvd/jvcs-bluraydvd-hybrid-disc-028702.php).

[amusedtoe]

DVD was already on it's way, but the consoles definately helped propel it to where it is now and especially overseas where DVD players were even priceier. The PS3 will probably help propel BluRay to take DVD's place where there would likely have been no real reason for the consumer to adopt it otherwise and even more now that they've compromised on a standard that's part Blu Ray and part HDDVD.

As far as the consoles making HD manadatory for their games that's mostly future proofing, especially for the 360, at this point. HDTV's are still so expensive that most who would buy them already have, once the prices start to come down though the consoles will likely fuel sales and push them into the mainstream. How long until that is though we'll have to see since the networks still aren't interested in transitioning to it and until they do the units likely won't be selling enough they drop to reasonable prices. Though it goes both ways where sales would bring programming and vice versa, so until one gives the effect will probably be minimal unless the difference is so huge every gamer has to run out and get one.

[Furious Wang]

Actually pretty much all movies (other than the new star wars movies) are shot on film. Film quality quality far surpasses that of HDTV.

This statement is wrong. In fact, the major reason that HDTV cameras haven't caught on very quickly is that directors dislike the amount of detail they record. Things like wrinkles on an actors face and hair frizzles and what not. Some people may prefer the look of pure film, but HD signals definately capture more information.

You take your average film (read non-lucas non-robertson) made today and compare it on blueray 1080i and dvd 480p and you won't see enough of a difference to warrant the extra hundreds of dollars for the player and the $40 price tag of the disks.

Older movies are an even worse case and would need special restoration to on the original to even see that marginal increase over dvd.

[baz]

I am definately going to buy an HDTV for the next gen, so if I'm not an isolated case they will at least have an impact on HDTV sales.

I don't think the Xbox contributed to the uptake of the DVD format, but I definately think the PS2 did. The first DVD drive I lived with was my flatmates (read roommate if american) PS2. Early on I didn't even know anyone with a stand alone DVD, everyone was just using PS2s to play DVDs.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

This statement is wrong. In fact, the major reason that HDTV cameras haven't caught on very quickly is that directors dislike the amount of detail they record. Things like wrinkles on an actors face and hair frizzles and what not. Some people may prefer the look of pure film, but HD signals definately capture more information.

This isn't true at all. A typical 35mm motion picture film frame has a resolution of about 80-100 line pairs per millimeter, which works out in practice to an image resolution of 3,000-4,000 lines (this is heavily approximated because film doesn't have a fixed resolution like video). HD is 1,080 lines. Now, an actual 35mm print as projected in theaters is going to be considerably less detailed than the original negative, since film degrades heavily from generation to generation, which is why CG work is generally done at 2,000 lines (considerably less than the original camera negative but adequate for release prints). But even 2K is nearly double the resolution of HD and the actual information captured on the negative is by any standard far greater than that captured by HD -- indeed, there's been a big move towards 4,000-line scanning for archival and restoration work in recent years, because it's felt that nothing less than 4K can come close to capturing the full detail of the original negative. 6,000-line scanning has even been employed for some VistaVision films (which have a wider negative area than standard 35mm).

[Rommel]

I think they increased the format, but by no means were the cause of its popularity. The public was ready for a replacement for VHS, and DVDs were simply perfect. They did everything right, and the industry actually supported it.

[Achilles]

I think the PS2 and the DVD format helped each other. The PS2 was a cheap DVD player which gave broader access to DVD and helped sell the PS2. I doubt the Xbox had any impact on it, it needed a dongle, and by then DVD was already an accepted format. I do believe that the PS3 will help acceptance of the Blu-ray format as well. If you have a PS3 why not get the higher-res version of the movie? Assuming they don’t price them $10 higher like they have with the UMD movies.

What anyone who mentions $49 DVD players is forgetting is how much more expensive they were in 2000.

[Deadend]

So, it seems to me that a next gen format may take off and become standard, asuming that companies do not try to make the prices higher, and try and make some backwards compatability.

Really, I see HD/Blu not competing with each other, so much as competeing with downloading, as in the legal sense.

It is going to get fairly scary on the home theatre front in the next few years. Downloadable movies, NextDVD movies, DVD movies, all of the same movie, but at possibly diffrent prices and with diffrent resolutions and diffrent extras....

Spider-man 3 - Tivo version - $15.95 720p res NO extras, but instant. (sells 2 weeks after theatres)
Spider-man 3 - DVD version - $19.95 480i res Lots of extras. (8 months after theatres
Spider-man 3 - HD-DVD ver - $39.95 1080p res Lots of extras. ( 18 months after theatres)

Yeah, that may be extreme.. but I really see it happening that way, and you can't forget special editions and such. Be prepared for Quad-diping on movies (4 incremntaly better releases, that all claim to be the last).

[bobbler]

You'd be silly to say that the PS2 didn't have an effect on DVD's acceptance and success -- DVD's may have been out for a short while before that but they got a huge boost after it (if only by the fact that movie companies were more accepting of the format since it had increasing user base, support for the format is key). It's added to possible DVD sales (as far as movie companies saw) -- gamer population overlaps heavily with the movie goer population (same basic market). The installed user base grew a ton when the PS2 came out and over the 5 years after -- I know a lot of people (including myself) where consoles are the only TV dvd player they have (around college age), I can only name one person I know with an actual set-top DVD player (I bought it for them). Remember, theres more PS2's in the world than any other single type of DVD player -- most people don't care about the quality of the player, just that it plays stuff. This sort of relates to HD-DVD/BR. Since people don't really care about quality, but most people will opt to get newer 'stuff' if it is no extra work/cost (having next gen format in consoles = no extra work and increased movie sales). The reason HD-DVD will fail is because it has nothing pushing it besides player sales (which there is no huge reason to get as far as most people are concerned) -- its hard to sell something 'untested' that only does one thing, its one of the hardest things to do, especially when most people won't be able to tell the difference. However, if a person buys a PS3 they get a BR player extra, for 'free' (install base grows fast without the really hard part of trying to make it grow), so they now have the chance to buy BR movies since they already have a player -- This is exactly what happened with DVD (except there wasn't two competing standards). Never underestimate the power of a 'gauranteed' user base.

In short... Yes, PS2 (and to a very small extent, the xbox -- damned dvd remote) had an effect on the success and acceptance of DVD -- if only by relaxing the movie studio heads; allowing them to support DVD to a greater degree. Without PS2 I don't think adoption rates would be anywhere near what they were. The format would have succeeded without the PS2 but it wouldn't have been as fast.

I wish I could find the article that was talking about PS2 (and consoles in general -- how they can affect format acceptance) and success of the DVD -- there have been a few studies on how it has helped the format.

[Mav]

As someone who didn't own a PS2 (or a PS1 for that matter) nor an Xbox1, I don't think they had much effect on DVDs, in America.

I remember back when PS2 debuted in Japan, it sprung alot of attention to dvd's, which wasn't that huge over there at the time. When it came out here, I didn't own a dvd player (didn't get my first one till 2001).

New systems and such don't spure me to go buy the current things. Look back to 2000/2001, dvd players were hundreds of dollars, like VCR's used to be. Sure the PS2 helped solve that problem, being a game system and a dvd player, but in a matter of years DVD players drastically dropped. I've got a really nice one, that I got from Walmart, for like $70. Four years ago that woulda been $300+

As for PS3 and Xbox2, if they do require HDTV, they can forget me even considering purchasing them. I've never owned a Sony system, and no desire for the Xbox line either. Not to mention I really can't afford to drop $1000 on a HDTV for a fucking console. And even if they don't require HDTV, you know some developer is gonna make a game that requires HDTV and more than likely it's gonna be some kickass game that every fucker and their mom plays (like Halo).

I'll do what I've always done; wait for the PC port. I might buy a Rev, for the huge backlist of games, if its cheap that is.

[Dr.Finger]

I think the PS2 sped up acceptance of the DVD format, but it had enough over VHS & laserdiscs that it would have been a success anyway. I think the same will be true for HDTV. The 360 and PS3 will give people more of a reason to buy, but it won't be the only reason. The big reason will be price. You can regularly find 30-32 inch HDTV's for $800-$900 now, and I've even seen a 27" HDTV for $450 in a recent flyer. That will drive sales.

[alienhead]

Very little to none. I'm sure as hell not going to spend $1500 on an hdtv to play a $350 console on.

[Furious Wang]

This isn't true at all.

I misphrased. You're technically right. The resolution of the negative is higher than HD cameras, but by the time the film reaches a screen of disk the little details that stay with HD are gone. So for all intents and purposes...you know...

There are, however, HD cameras that are soon to be released which offer resolution the same as standard 35 mm and even up to 16,777,216 bytes per square inch which is a good deal more.

[51|RandoM]

Little, if any. More like none, imho.

[if76]

I've definitely seen HDTV's in the $500-900 range at Best Buy. They're CRT though so they're big but in all other ways superior to the flat panels. Of course Best Buy makes more money if you buy the $1300+ flat panels so they don't hook the CRTs to an HD signal. Instead they hook them to a regular coax signal which is playing the same "high def" programming as the flat panel displays a few feet away. It's a scam. I've seen the exact same setup in two different Best Buys

[Atrapas]

In America at least, all new cable programs will have gone digital by 2007. By 2010 all analog signals must be turned over to the FCC and everything will be digital. One of the main reasons you're seeing such an influx of HD Digital channels available in the past year. Cable companies are gearing up for the switch.

HD in itself is superior to the old school sets. However, there's quite a bit you need to put into a HD set in order to get HD quality picture. Wires is the biggest screw up there.

Kills me when someone will buy a 4000 dollar HDTV and then refuse to spend 200 bucks on DVI and fiber optic cables. No, it's composite (RCA) all the way for them. I just want to tell them "Congratulations, just give me the damn HDTV and I'll give you a regular TV in return. After all, the picture will be the same."

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

I've definitely seen HDTV's in the $500-900 range at Best Buy. They're CRT though so they're big but in all other ways superior to the flat panels. Of course Best Buy makes more money if you buy the $1300+ flat panels so they don't hook the CRTs to an HD signal. Instead they hook them to a regular coax signal which is playing the same "high def" programming as the flat panel displays a few feet away. It's a scam. I've seen the exact same setup in two different Best Buys

You think that's bad? I was in a Wal-Mart yesterday and they had their big-screen HDTVs running off the antenna. It looked even worse than it sounds (it's not easy to get decent reception inside a Wal-Mart).

[TheKeck]

I think DVD was more than established WELL before PS2 or XBox ever came out.

[Furious Wang]

I think DVD was more than established WELL before PS2 or XBox ever came out.

Wrong. My and many other people's first DVD player was PS2. You could argue that yes, some of the well to do people had dvd players, but the cost was prohibitive for 80% of the population and dvds just weren't available for many films before PS2 came out. But implying that DVD was "more than established well before the PS2" is just wrong. In 1998 players were running 1000 bucks.

[Furious Wang]

In America at least, all new cable programs will have gone digital by 2007. By 2010 all analog signals must be turned over to the FCC and everything will be digital. One of the main reasons you're seeing such an influx of HD Digital channels available in the past year. Cable companies are gearing up for the switch.

HD in itself is superior to the old school sets. However, there's quite a bit you need to put into a HD set in order to get HD quality picture. Wires is the biggest screw up there.

Kills me when someone will buy a 4000 dollar HDTV and then refuse to spend 200 bucks on DVI and fiber optic cables. No, it's composite (RCA) all the way for them. I just want to tell them "Congratulations, just give me the damn HDTV and I'll give you a regular TV in return. After all, the picture will be the same."


The switch date has been pushed back several times already. I think the original date was actually 2000 for all broadcasts.

[Atrapas]

Indeed, because the cable companies were complaining that the cost to switch was prohibitive. This quickly ended when the FCC laid the smack down on the cable companies over the Superbowl incident. It made clear in no uncertain terms that it would start fining for not falling into line.

I'm not saying that it might not get pushed back again, but it won't be because of procrastination this time around.

[Morratut]

My first dvd player was the PS2. I only have 1 dvd player in my house now at the mo and that is my Xbox. For me it's great. The picture is great on my Sony 32" Widescreen TV, 5.1 surround sound etc.No problems.

I reckon the take up of Blu Ray and HD-DVD won't be fast. A lot of people like myself are very very happy with the picture quality of a standard TV/DVD player.

[Furious Wang]

I'm confused about what perogative the government and fcc have in forcing companies to carry HD signals. Seems like its not really their place to force HD on the market. Dunno how it benefits them.