Wii: After the Honeymoon

[easi]

Arstechnica has followed up on their 'after the honeymoon' series and investigated if the Wii is still being loved by the public. The answer is yes and MS and Sony better look out, as the Wii is getting ready to "eat everyone's lunch".

Nintendo did something new, launched at a great price, and put the focus squarely back on fun. They've added more features and more games since we last looked at the system, and the Virtual Console has really taken off. If Sony and Microsoft haven't started taking the Wii seriously as a competitor they need to: the Wii is getting ready to eat everyone's lunch.

Source: ArsTechnica (http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardware/wii-honeymoon.ars/1)

I think MS and Nintendo can co-exist quite happily in the console space, but PS3 is in big trouble.

[Rirath]

I think MS and Nintendo can co-exist quite happily in the console space, but PS3 is in big trouble.

But you're forgetting the genre the Playstation practically owns: JRPG.
If it wasn't for JRPGs, how would the PS1 and PS2 have faired?

Not to mention other niche Japanese titles.

[Serapth]

I am a bit wary about my Wii purchase until I see a list of upcoming games. I wish Nintendo didnt play future releases so close to the chest.

[T-Rex Commando]

"After the honeymoon"??? I haven't even started dating the Wii yet.

[Rirath]

Arstechnica has followed up on their 'after the honeymoon' series and investigated if the Wii is still being loved by the public. The answer is yes and MS and Sony better look out, as the Wii is getting ready to "eat everyone's lunch".

Until the Wii can do more than just party games and put out titles like Final Fantasy XII, Rogue Galaxy, Gears of War, Unreal Tournament 3, BioShock, and so forth... the Wii will not now, nor ever, take over the market.

Metroid Prime 3 and such will be a good start, but too little, too late to pull them from 3rd place overall when all is said and done. (Perhaps 2nd place until Sony picks up steam by the end of '07, start of '08.)

[easi]

Aren't you forgetting something? "the market" has changed. Nintendo has EVERYONE as a customer now, whereas MS and Sony still only have basement dwellers, Gen Xers and stoned slackers. One could argue they've already cornered this new demographic.

[Rirath]

Aren't you forgetting something? "the market" has changed. Nintendo has EVERYONE as a customer now, whereas MS and Sony still only have basement dwellers, Gen Xers and stoned slackers. One could argue they've already cornered this new demographic.

Funny, what "market" are you looking at? Seems to me the 360 is doing quite well, and the PS3 seems to be fine in Japan. Just because Nintendo has moved a good deal of systems hardly means they've cornered the market.

[bapenguin]

I am a bit wary about my Wii purchase until I see a list of upcoming games. I wish Nintendo didnt play future releases so close to the chest.

I have to agree. Right now there's not much that really looks interesting until late summer.

[Zawath]

I have to agree. Right now there's not much that really looks interesting until late summer.

Super Paper Mario is just around the corner.

[ZephidsEmbrace]

I have to agree. Right now there's not much that really looks interesting until late summer.
Yep yep. That's my problem with the Wii. I'm a huge fan of Mario games, but I bought a Wii and I have to live with Super Mario 64 and the old Zelda games until they release something new :(

[easi]

SSX Blur. System seller right there.

[fitbabits]

SSX Blur. System seller right there.
PFfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft! You have to be kidding.

[fable2323]

There is plenty to choose from already and wealth of games coming down the pipeline for the system. Between the Virtual Console releases which drop every Monday in the states and the wealth of titles 3rd parties are developing for the machine are steadily growing. In the last gen race, no one looked twice at the 'Cube because it was just another Playstation like machine. This time around Nintendo truly differentiated itself from the pack.

Remember, companies love to keep secrets until around GDC (March) and the former E3 (May). Nintendo will doubt shock gamers with games that have yet to be revealed to gamers yet. Of note, Shigeru Miyamoto is doing the keynote speech for the GDC conference. Any doubt that something new will be revealed?

Bottom line, if you are posting on this site, the Wii is not going to be the end all machine for you as you represent the hardcore base. That is the same markey Sony and Microsoft are after exclusively. The problem is, the hardcore gamer makes up a VERY small portion of the market. Something like 5%. Nintendo on the other hand has just sold a console to people that I know that havent played a game in decades. These are the people that will drive the Wii's sales. Think of MP3 players before the iPod. Only the tech savy people had them. Once Apple released something that was simple and easy to use, everyone has one. They took over a market that was once dominated by companies that only wanted to have more tech filled products. The iPod was far from the best MP3 player on the block, but its functionality and interface was easy enough for the "casual" users to understand. This is the exact same philosophy Nintendo is taking. The DS did it before it and the Wii will continue it. Be prepared, if you are all about graphics, this Gen may very well disappoint you because Nintendo is here to stay and they just may wear the crown at the end of the day!

[Serapth]

fable.... what wealth of 3rd party titles? I hear tons of vague announcements, but I dont see a release schedule with tons of games.

[Johan]

But you're forgetting the genre the Playstation practically owns: JRPG.

It's looking more and more like MS owns that genre this generation...FF XIII excepted (for now).

[Banacek]

They need to start releasing good VC titles. Lttp was a step in the right direction, but the wife demands Starfox, now!

[Rirath]

It's looking more and more like MS owns that genre this generation...FF XIII excepted (for now).

While I'd be all for agreeing with you there as it would mean I didn't have to buy a PS3, I just don't see that happening. MS has what, 3 big name JRPGS? Enchanted Arms, Blue Dragon, and I believe another may have been announced... that certainly doesn't own a genre.

Once the PS3 gets into full swing, we'll be seeing these things pop out every other week. It's practically what the Playstation does. I sincerely don't expect that to ever happen on the 360.

[jeffbax]

But you're forgetting the genre the Playstation practically owns: JRPG.
If it wasn't for JRPGs, how would the PS1 and PS2 have faired?

Not to mention other niche Japanese titles.
While FF VII FMV was big on selling PSX's, I wouldn't say they carried the platform. GTA built the PS2.

[Vasanni]

My grandparents know a good deal about the wii, my girlfriend and her friends play the damn wii. I couldn't get her to touch a 360 until nintendo took her console virginity. I have no doubt that nintendo has alot higher share of the market than microsoft or sony, simply because i don't hear my grandparents and their friends talking about chainsawing bitches in gears, or how the launch selection of the ps3 is rather weak. I do hear them talking about how much fun wiisports is though and how simple it is to get going..

[fable2323]

Scarface
Blazing Angels
Bionicle Heroes
Dragon Quest Swords
Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles
Tiger Woods PGA Tour
Prince of Persia:Rival Swords
Medal of Honor: Vanguard
SSX Blur
Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix
The Godfather
Disney's Meet the Robinsons
Cooking Mama
Bust a Move Dash
Sonic and the Secret Rings
Spiderman 3
Shrek the 3rd
The Bigs
Blitz the League
Mortal Kombat Armageddon
Madden 08
Transformers
Sadness
Brothers in Arms
Legend of the Dragon
Black
Disaster: Day of Crisis
Haze
Red Steel 2
One Piece:Unlimited Adventure
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
100 Bullets
No More Heroes
Mercury Meltdown
Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer

Not to forget the 1st party stuff:

Wii Play
Mario Party 8
Mario Galaxy
Metroid Prime 3
Project HAMMER
Super Smash Brothers Brawl
Mario Strikers Charged
Fire Emblem
Animal Crossing
Battalion Wars II
Pokemon Revolution
Super Paper Mario
Wing Island


Hows that?

[Johan]

While I'd be all for agreeing with you there as it would mean I didn't have to buy a PS3, I just don't see that happening. MS has what, 3 big name JRPGS? Enchanted Arms, Blue Dragon, and I believe another may have been announced... that certainly doesn't own a genre.

Once the PS3 gets into full swing, we'll be seeing these things pop out every other week. It's practically what the Playstation does. I sincerely don't expect that to ever happen on the 360.

Point taken...."own this generation" is premature/wrong. How about MS currently is the place to go for latest-gen jRPGs? :)

And damn am I excited for Blue Dragon. What a triumvirate that worked on that one!!!

[Serapth]

Got dates? :D

I didnt know there was a transformers game coming. Me wants!

Mortal Kombat could be interesting.

[Rirath]

While FF VII FMV was big on selling PSX's, I wouldn't say they carried the platform. GTA built the PS2.

In America and some other west countries it no doubt was a huge boon, but I'm still placing my bet on FFX and all the other RPGs that top the Japanese sells charts weekly as the real console seller.

Personally, I don't care if the 360 fails in Japan, we carried the Xbox just fine without their support. Microsoft is an American company, after all. With Sony, the situation is different. The Playstation pretty much needs the support of Japan to survive, I'd say.

Nintendo will do fine with the Wii, great if you look at it only from a cost/profit standpoint. They've got support on both sides of the ocean. But I'm not a business / market analyst, I'm a gamer. Past their legendary first party lineup, they just don't have the 3rd party title list needed to pull in the sustained numbers of the 360/PS3.

[jeffool]

Got dates? :DThe release dates are depressing (http://wii.ign.com/index/release.html). Of course that said, I still want the damn thing.

[Serapth]

The release dates are depressing (http://wii.ign.com/index/release.html). Of course that said, I still want the damn thing.



Argh, first new game is Mario Party ( not counting Wii Play, which is already out most places ) in.... MARCH! :(

[Rirath]

My grandparents know a good deal about the wii, my girlfriend and her friends play the damn wii. I couldn't get her to touch a 360 until nintendo took her console virginity. I have no doubt that nintendo has alot higher share of the market than microsoft or sony, simply because i don't hear my grandparents and their friends talking about chainsawing bitches in gears, or how the launch selection of the ps3 is rather weak. I do hear them talking about how much fun wiisports is though and how simple it is to get going..

I believe the fatal flaw in this plan is the assumption that most non-gamers want to be gamers, if someone would just show them the right machine. Your girlfriend and your grandparents may be into the Wii, but the number of females and the number of grandparents who couldn't care less about gaming as a whole, regardless of the machine, is far greater. I believe the number of non-gamers who would keep a sustained interest to be marginal.

To me it's like saying we could REALLY get this generation interested in knitting if we just showed them how easy and fun it is with an interesting and new knitting method. -- Most of these "my grandparents" stories come from hardcore gamers who have probably introduced the system to their families / friends / SOs. It would be interesting to find out the market penetration to say, grandparents without younger gaming family members.

[bapenguin]

SSX Blur. System seller right there.

Good call forgot about that.

[bapenguin]

Big list with every Wii game

90% of that list comes out after March/April and 50% of it are multiplatform games that for the most part, will be better on the 360 or PS3.

[51|RandoM]

Aren't you forgetting something? "the market" has changed. Nintendo has EVERYONE as a customer now, whereas MS and Sony still only have basement dwellers, Gen Xers and stoned slackers. One could argue they've already cornered this new demographic.

he isn't forgetting most of the things you're forgetting.

The biggest thing you're forgetting is that new demographic doesn't buy very many games. The newness of the Wii will wear off on them eventually and it'll end up in the closet gathering dust.

Nintendo might very well sell the most consoles, they'll also have the lowest lifetime attach rate.

[51|RandoM]

<long list of games>

Hows that?

This list goes a great way towards proving in my mind why 3rd party developers don't do great on nintendo consoles. Just about every game I'd buy on that list is one of Nintendo's first party games, whereas the 3rd party games I've never even heard of, much less have any interest in.

[easi]

Nintendo might very well sell the most consoles, they'll also have the lowest lifetime attach rate.

For some reason you think attach rate matters on a console that's profitable from day 1? Do I NEED to bust out the "IT PRINTS MONEY!" gif?

[Rirath]

For some reason you think attach rate matters on a console that's profitable from day 1?

That only ensures that Nintendo will not go bankrupt from the Wii.
Not that we, the gamers, will actually have anything to buy and play.

That is why it matters.

[UnderHero5]

That only ensures that Nintendo will not go bankrupt from the Wii.
Not that we, the gamers, will actually have anything to buy and play.

That is why it matters.
You act as if no gamers will be/are buying the console. Just because casual players will ALSO own it doesn't mean it's unpopular with gamers. I already own six Wii games, for instance.

[easi]

I don't know why you're still on this 3rd party crap, they've all come out pledging massive support for the Wii. This won't be another Gamecube.

[downtempo]

I believe the fatal flaw in this plan is the assumption that most non-gamers want to be gamers, if someone would just show them the right machine.

I think this is really an excellent point and as of today, we'll all just have to wait and see. I'm sure I am in the minority of the forums here, but none of my friends have a 360 or PS3 and none of them plan to get one. However, they do seem to have at least an interest in a Wii, enough so that they enjoy playing with mine pretty much every opportunity they get (wow...that sounds so gross, I really wish Nintendo named it something else).

That being said, if this part of the market actually starts buying Wiis when they are readily available then it has a potential to really change things. I think you'd see a lot more third party support, new types of games, etc... But the jury is going to be out on that at least until you don't have to get up at 6am and wait in line for a Wii.

[51|RandoM]

I don't know why you're still on this 3rd party crap, they've all come out pledging massive support for the Wii. This won't be another Gamecube.

This isn't a telethon, your pledges are worthless. The 3rd party issue isn't that the games don't get made, is that they don't get pushed by nintendo and are inevitably overshadowed by Nintendo's first party titles.

[51|RandoM]

For some reason you think attach rate matters on a console that's profitable from day 1?


Yeah, I do. Evidently Nintendo agrees wtih me, since they're in the software business.

[Vandenh]

The Wii will do well... I don't think it will get to first place though. The lack of power could be a serious problem in a few years. One of my non-gaming buddies that bought the Wii thinks it is a cool system, but he always feels a bit bad about it when he sees Gears at my place. If Nintendo can keep him happy with a stream of fun games they will do well...

[easi]

inevitably overshadowed by Nintendo's first party titles.

Inevitable is right, nobody can make a better game than SMW, Mario 64, LttP, OoT or WW. So boo-fucking-hoo, but that's life. No matter how good you get at something, there's always somebody better than you.

[devicelimit]

For some reason you think attach rate matters on a console that's profitable from day 1? Do I NEED to bust out the "IT PRINTS MONEY!" gif?

Yes you do. I haven't seen it.

[Rirath]

You act as if no gamers will be/are buying the console. Just because casual players will ALSO own it doesn't mean it's unpopular with gamers. I already own six Wii games, for instance.

I'm not trying to say it's unpopular with regular gamers, I too plan to buy one as soon as one becomes available. Whether we will have enough titles to buy, however, is a totally different question. In fact, I'm not buying a Wii for a single title released right now. I already own TP on the Gamecube. I'm buying it for upcoming first party titles like Metroid Prime 3, Mario Galaxy, and Super Smash Brothers Brawl.

That was my biggest problem with the Gamecube. Aside from first party titles, which were few and far between, there just wasn't much of anything to buy on the system. Judging by the current list, I see the same thing happening. If a game is out on multiple systems, I'm getting the 360 version.

Inevitable is right, nobody can make a better game than SMW, Mario 64, LttP, OoT or WW. So boo-fucking-hoo, but that's life. No matter how good you get at something, there's always somebody better than you.

That honestly doesn't add up. As a hardcore gamer, I'm willing to buy a system for a handful of exclusive titles. However, that should not exclude the system from having great 3rd party titles as well. I believe the point 51|Random was making was that the 3rd party titles were rather poor quality to begin with, or just completely ignored by Nintendo.

[Phades]

For some reason you think attach rate matters on a console that's profitable from day 1? Do I NEED to bust out the "IT PRINTS MONEY!" gif?

It matters to the third parties who would be making the games... If Nintendo makes money do they care? THEY want to make money too.

That release list even further cements my sadness over the prospects of the Wii having a great non-Nintendo game lineup. So many of those are ports and several of them are ports of games that have been out a while. Black, Blazing Angels, Scarface, Prince of Persia, Godfather, etc...

When I found out that Prince of Persia was coming to the Wii I was excited. Then I found out it was just a port of The Two Thrones...... I wonder how often this is going to be the case? Personally, I'm not going to buy a Wii game that is also out on the PS3 or 360. Call of Duty 3, much better on the 360. X-men Ultimate Alliance, much better on the 360. I think this is going to be the trend.

[Mason]

A few things to note:

- Few consoles have worthwhile line-ups this close to their release. The 360 sure didn't, I've only recently started to feel the urge to purchase one.
- Wii's pre-release popularity exploded pretty late last year (let's say E3 was the epicenter), and any influence that this popularity might have on developer decision-making will necessarily take years to turn into new Wii titles. Even if every new 3rd-party project since December was a Wii-only title, you wouldn't see the fruits of that massive sea-change for quite some time.
- Casual and party games don't "win" mainstream gamers. Mainstream games don't draw many casual or social pseudo-gamers. They're separate markets and separate issues.
- Nintendo's profit has no bearing on its comparative market position. They can have a healthy financial situation and a lackluster console, or vice-versa. And aside from Nintendo investors and employees, I can't imagine why anyone would find it relevant, outside of the possibility of an eventual price drop.

[bitwise]

Blazing Angels
Dragon Quest Swords
Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles
Prince of Persia:Rival Swords
Medal of Honor: Vanguard
Sadness
Disaster: Day of Crisis
No More Heroes


Some good stuff there. I think Disaster: Day of Crisis is a first party Nintendo title, not third party. Could be wrong, though. At any rate, those are all third party titles I would be willing to plunk down fifty bucks for. I expect to like most of the first party titles you listed, which is why I didn't list them here.

I believe the fatal flaw in this plan is the assumption that most non-gamers want to be gamers, if someone would just show them the right machine.

Nintendo doesn't seem to be assuming that non-gamers want to be gamers at all. In fact, when you get a Wii, you will see that they've gone out of their way to give the console value even if you never play a single game on it. You can check the weather, view photos from your camera, check news stories, browse the internet, and send wiimail to other family members who have a Wii. It's the closest I've ever seen anything come to being a computer without actually being a PC. For the computer illiterate members of my own family, that's reason enough to consider owning one.

Your girlfriend and your grandparents may be into the Wii, but the number of females and the number of grandparents who couldn't care less about gaming as a whole, regardless of the machine, is far greater.

It doesn't matter what the proportion is. All that matters is whether or not people who would otherwise have not considered buying a game console now consider it, or even buy it. Then you have word of mouth, etc to do the rest. Middle aged house wives gather to excersize, play bridge and talk. I've heard that at one of these recent gatherings involving a relation of mine, the conversation turned to "this Wii thing". If that group of 40-50 year old women are talking about it, what's to say that several other groups of housewives aren't talking about it too? I dunno, it might be a localized phenomenon. Something in the water.

I believe the number of non-gamers who would keep a sustained interest to be marginal.

I think we know too little about these new gamers to be able to say one way or the other at this point. We'll just have to wait and see. But like I was trying to say above, I think the level of commitment you need to have to enjoy the Wii is so low that many non-gamers will have one, if only to check the news and weather every once in a while. And having it sitting there will make them curious about what games they might play, etc. Maybe they'll want to play games, and maybe they won't, but the point is they would have considered it. I expect some of them to actually "stick".

[RMan]

The 3rd party issue isn't that the games don't get made, is that they don't get pushed by nintendo and are inevitably overshadowed by Nintendo's first party titles.
And have you asked yourself why? To start, your statement isn’t actually true, there was plenty of 3rd party support for the SNES and NES, as well as their handhelds. The 3rd party games on the N64 and GC were generally overshadowed by Nintendo titles because there weren’t many 3rd party titles, period. It isn’t Nintendo’s responsibility to market all 3rd party titles, nor is it somehow better for a publisher to work on MS’s system which increases development costs in the hopes of MS paying some of their marketing costs when it’s done. The ONLY reason for the lack of 3rd party support on the last two systems is that developers chose the PS1 and PS2 over Nintendo’s systems, for various reasons, and the only way they could have helped is to have gone different directions with the hardware (I think a lesson they clearly learned when developing the Wii).

Clearly the major complaint from those who doubt it’s continued 3rd party support is that the GC had poor 3rd party support. It’s not about the Wii, because at this point in a console’s life the only thing you can expect to see from 3rd parties is ports and the results of support of the previous generation. Seriously, if any of you actually think this is a problem with the Wii, what exactly would make you happy? I mean, the 3rd party support seems great to me, I’m honestly not sure how it could have been better without them pushing their controller 2.5 years ago, and if they did then MS and Sony would have ripped it off. Their momentum is currently beyond their competitors and we don’t even know what the upper limit is since they sell out so fast. Every negative thing said about the system that I’ve seen that should have killed it 10 times over has been proven wrong or highly exaggerated (consumers demand HD, system’s not powerful enough, people don’t want to move, holding hands out for 8 hours straight, etc). Seriously, why on earth would you doubt the 3rd party support, do you imagine some massive negatives that publishers are seeing that everyone else doesn’t? I just don’t get it.

[Spigot]

The release dates are depressing (http://wii.ign.com/index/release.html). Of course that said, I still want the damn thing.Woo! I see Mario RPG on there... I wasn't 100% sure that was confirmed.

What scares me is that I don't see Disaster: Day Of Crisis on that list. I REALLY want Disaster.

Ah well. I'm trying to cut back on my game expenditures as it is, so a steady to slowish flow of games instead of a huge deluge is ok with me for now. I'm still waiting for Super Metroid as well... Though I'm not holding my breath.

Oh, and to stay somewhat on topic, I know that a lot of people (usually sisters-in-law or people like my wife) that normally have nothing good to say about gaming in general are quite interested by the Wii after seeing it in action at my place. Say what you will, but I think that anything that helps break gaming out of the nerd ghetto is good. I'm not saying that my wife is suddenly going to play Zelda or anything, but this is a baby-step towards her not scowling at the videogames but instead enjoying them.

[RMan]

To me it's like saying we could REALLY get this generation interested in knitting if we just showed them how easy and fun it is with an interesting and new knitting method.
Well, I think it’s a silly analogy, but to use it, I think you could really get a larger number of people into knitting if you sold knitting needles while everyone else was using knitting knives (I know it’s silly, but it’s your analogy and I don’t know what people used for knitting before needles). There are plenty of things you take for granted that are improvements on old things, and they quite frequently improve the size of the market (from Philips head screwdrivers to home computers), when you make it more accessible more people access them (funny how that works).
-- Most of these "my grandparents" stories come from hardcore gamers who have probably introduced the system to their families / friends / SOs. It would be interesting to find out the market penetration to say, grandparents without younger gaming family members.
So you’re saying you want to know what the response rate is among people who don’t know about the system? Hmm, well, if you restrict it even further to the homeless, quadriplegics, or dead people you can get really low numbers :). Seriously, the information has to come from somewhere, or are you expecting Nintendo to do a massive media blast on the weather channel so it can reach a small segment of elderly shut-ins? The system is designed more as a family/social system, it’s obviously far more important to it’s demographic to see how well it’s doing with these groups, rather than making an effort to find people outside their market to find people that don’t like it.

[T-Rex Commando]

So...it's going to be like the gamecube where they release one good first party title every 4-5 months? So be it. I'd bet that most people here have more than one console anyways, so what's the problem? You play a good 360/PS3/DS game or something until the next big Wii game hits. Problem solved.

[DeadScreenSky]

Funny, what "market" are you looking at? Seems to me the 360 is doing quite well, and the PS3 seems to be fine in Japan. Just because Nintendo has moved a good deal of systems hardly means they've cornered the market.
A fantasy land where sigs like "Wii: over 4 million sold in 2 months!" are fact and not a hallucination even when Nintendo only managed to get less than 3.2 million to retailers (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=139616). :p

The article seems a little silly to me. It seriously glosses over the fact that Nintendo undershipped the Wii and that's why it still shows such high demand. We saw the same thing with the 360 last year. None of that negates the fact that the Wii is a solid second behind the 360 since its release, so "Xbox 360s are everywhere" has no bearing on the Wii somehow being more popular. It simply isn't (so far!). I'm also not sure which alternate universe the writer is in where all his friends are hohum about the 360 and the Wii has a great selection of games available. Obviously personal experience varies, but everybody I know that has a 360 right now seems to love the thing.

But the usage of two Wii puns in various titles in the article probably tells us all we need to know about the author's...position on things. The Wii will probably be massively successful in the end (though I'll be surprised if it even manages N64-levels of success), but it's clear this author is definitely still on his honeymoon.

[Nessus]

- Nintendo's profit has no bearing on its comparative market position. They can have a healthy financial situation and a lackluster console, or vice-versa. And aside from Nintendo investors and employees, I can't imagine why anyone would find it relevant, outside of the possibility of an eventual price drop.

Personally I watch the financials because I like Nintendo games and I want them to keep making games. If they lose money they risk going out of business, and I don't want that to happen.



-- Most of these "my grandparents" stories come from hardcore gamers who have probably introduced the system to their families / friends / SOs. It would be interesting to find out the market penetration to say, grandparents without younger gaming family members.

Still, how is that not significant? It still represents more people trying/buying a video game console than would otherwise. If it has to disseminate from hardcore gamers first, so be it. Say one hardcore gamer exposes 7 non-gamers to the system (some of whom might mention it to their friends), and out of them maybe one person buys the console, that's a pretty good average I'd say.


But yeah, I remember a lot of similar arguments back when the DS first came out. I'm by no means saying Nintendo will grab first place (though they are doing extremely well in Japan), but that I have learned not to doubt Nintendo's crazy ideas because sometimes they work.

[DeadScreenSky]

he isn't forgetting most of the things you're forgetting.

The biggest thing you're forgetting is that new demographic doesn't buy very many games. The newness of the Wii will wear off on them eventually and it'll end up in the closet gathering dust.

Nintendo might very well sell the most consoles, they'll also have the lowest lifetime attach rate.
I just wanted to say I agree. Obviously all of this will still be fine for Nintendo - the hardware costs them what, less than $150 to make? - but it's hard to argue this makes it a very good console for most people since it guarantees the usual Nintendo shortages of game variety. That's bad for gamers of any sort, whether they are casual or hardcore.

Inevitable is right, nobody can make a better game than SMW, Mario 64, LttP, OoT or WW. So boo-fucking-hoo, but that's life. No matter how good you get at something, there's always somebody better than you.
The Wind Waker is overrated crap. Terrible gameplay design runs rampant in it, from the horrible stealth dungeon to the boring sailing mechanics to the annoying exploration limitations (like the game not remembering the clues you get from those damn fish) to the preponderance of fetch quests and forced backtracking. Some decent dungeon designs and vaguely attractive (if derivative) graphics don't make up for that. You even would have been better off with other lesser Nintendo Gamecube titles like Sunshine. Wind Waker is a seriously low bar to leave for other game developers to exceed.

[ChaosDent]

A fantasy land where sigs like "Wii: over 4 million sold in 2 months!" are fact and not a hallucination even when Nintendo only managed to get less than 3.2 million to retailers (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=139616). :p

The article seems a little silly to me. It seriously glosses over the fact that Nintendo undershipped the Wii and that's why it still shows such high demand. We saw the same thing with the 360 last year. None of that negates the fact that the Wii is a solid second behind the 360 since its release, so "Xbox 360s are everywhere" has no bearing on the Wii somehow being more popular. It simply isn't (so far!).

3.2 Million is still double what the 360 and PS3 sold in their 6 week post launch periods. The system is showing high demand in spite of double the availability of the 360 last year and two high-tech competitors on shelves. Credit should be given where it is due.

[DeadScreenSky]

3.2 Million is still double what the 360 and PS3 sold in their 6 week post launch periods. The system is showing high demand in spite of double the availability of the 360 last year and two high-tech competitors on shelves. Credit should be given where it is due.
Imaginary credit that they sold 4 million? Because that's specifically what I'm talking about.

(And it's ridiculous to talk about launch window numbers when early adopters haven't been satisfied yet. I'm willing to consider that Sony has satisfied them [though the mass shortages of the $500 models is a big issue IMO], but Nintendo hasn't yet just like MS hadn't this time last year. They're all supply constrained at this point to various degrees. Let's see how things go once all the consoles are widely available and selling mainly to the great masses of undecided people.)

[Kelegacy]

PS3 better watch out. This is why I hate seeing user comments on the front page. Objective, or reasonable, they typically are not.

And I agree with bapenguin and Serapth: the upcoming titles look like I won't be a Wii owner for quite some time. I complained about the 360 last year, but the Wii upcoming looks to be even more uninteresting.

I could probably say the same thing about the PS3, truth be told.

Still, to me, it seems the Wii is on a totally different playing field. It may very well win the majority of its matches, but you can't really compare the Peewee League to the Majors. Oooh, burn. :)

(Kidding, I think the Wii could be a very nice supplemental game system. But alone, it can't float. Needs a life preserver, like a 360 or PS3. Sorta like the Gamecube fared.)

[Wolfgang]

I think it is hard to declare the honeymoon over since the Wii is still hard to get.

The Wii is still getting the hype of being new and hard to obtain. Once that dies off, then we can declare the honeymoon over and see how popular it really is. I think there are still hardcore gamers trying to get one -- once the hardcore buy them up, then we can see how it is really doing.

I would estimate Nintendo, MS and Sony all have about 2 million fanboys that will buy their products. Once 2 million are sold in the US, then we can see after that.

[agentgray]

What if we are all looking at this wrong? What if, after the honeymoon, it's the handhelds that determine who should really look out?

I mean, that the handhelds are what goes into the mainstream. For example, the DS Lite is no where to be found as much as the Wii right now.

My grandmother is crazy for the DS. It has literally replaced all those handheld games she had lying around in her living room: yhatzee, solitaire, suduko, etc.

[Spigot]

Aye. I'm finding that my Wii will be a nice supplemental gaming system to my PS2 and DS. As shiny and pretty as the 360 and PS3 are, they just haven't done anything to really get me all fired up to own one.

I agree with Wolfgang about waiting until the Wii is in ready supply before we declare the honeymoon over.

I also love the fact that we've gone from rampant speculation and trash talking about the PS3 and Wii prior to their launch to now proclaiming doom and gloom (or outright victory in the console wars) every other day depending on the bit of financial information leaked. And here I thought we'd actually judge the systems on their merits rather than vague prognostication and taking figures out of context.

[UnderHero5]

The Wind Waker is overrated crap. Terrible gameplay design runs rampant in it, from the horrible stealth dungeon to the boring sailing mechanics to the annoying exploration limitations (like the game not remembering the clues you get from those damn fish) to the preponderance of fetch quests and forced backtracking. Some decent dungeon designs and vaguely attractive (if derivative) graphics don't make up for that. You even would have been better off with other lesser Nintendo Gamecube titles like Sunshine. Wind Waker is a seriously low bar to leave for other game developers to exceed.
You do realize that your opinion isn't the rule of the land, right? Most people see Wind Waker as an excellent game. Regardless of your personal opinion, you can't say it isn't a well made game. I personally don't like any of the Zelda games, but I recognize them as good (excellent?) games.

[31 Flavas]

Personally, I don't care if the 360 fails in Japan, we carried the Xbox just fine without their support. Microsoft is an American company, after all. With Sony, the situation is different. The Playstation pretty much needs the support of Japan to survive, I'd say.We'll then Sony better haul ass, the last time a PS3 game placed inside of the weekly (all systems) top 30 chart was the week before Christmas. (Armored Core 4, #26) Last week, no PS3 game even placed inside of the Top 50. Not to mention Wii has a 721k lifetime unit lead on the PS3 there.

Last weeks Japanese Top 50 (http://www.m-create.com/jpn/s_ranking.html) (Jan 15 - 21st)

[archon]

Cooking Mama has the potential to blow the F up given all the grandmas/girlfriend types that play the Wii. Especially considering that we all know that all women want to do besides cook in the real world is cook in a video game.

[Heretic Machine]

To those worried about the third party release list for the Wii, may I just point out that the DS had a terrible third party line up for it's first three quarters. Then it exploded, and today it is pretty much the handheld that you want to own. I'm not saying that the same thing will happen to the Wii, but I'd say that a lot of people are going to be carried over to the platform by the success of the DS. Once the Wii has a large install base, third party games will show up. Because regardless of what a certain rival platform's fans may say, customers breed games, not the other way around.

[Spudcula]

They need to start releasing good VC titles. Lttp was a step in the right direction, but the wife demands Starfox, now!

I'd be willing to pay ten bucks for the origional SNES Starfox with a better framerate.

[civil_dead]

I can't predict the future none, t’aint in my nature to do so. But I look out on the streets, my brothers and sisters, and I see the peoples' hearts. I hear what they is sayin'. I conversates with mah friends n' they friends, and they whispah too me about the Wii. They wants to know how to gets one of these things. They wants the party times with the friends. They wants to play the games that is fun and easy.

Good peoples of Evil Avatar, the folks ain't gettin' bored. They's already bored. And the Wii, it's awakenin' things in them, things they ain't felt in years if evah. Mark my words, my forum brethren: The Wii is gonna go places ain't none console done gone before.

Don't ya see, the DS it was like John the Baptist. It came and promised the peoples that new ways to have fun were a comin’. The Wii is comin' down off tha mountain like Jesus hisself to fulfills them promises. And the peoples, they is thirsty. All of ‘em.

[DeadScreenSky]

You do realize that your opinion isn't the rule of the land, right? Most people see Wind Waker as an excellent game. Regardless of your personal opinion, you can't say it isn't a well made game. I personally don't like any of the Zelda games, but I recognize them as good (excellent?) games.
No, really, you mean I was just offering my personal opinion on the internet? No fucking way! I thought I was handing down the goddamn law here!


And no, it isn't a well made game. Poor controls, poor level design, poor pacing. Easy example of all three: the early stealth dungeon was one of the must frustrating things I've ever put up with in a game, because the guards are entirely inconsistent in how they find you. I'm good at videogames, including the stealth genre. But there's no 100% way to know whether they aren't hearing you or seeing you (there's no radar or sound meter), and if they see or hear you you have to restart the whole unbelievably boring and somewhat lengthy segment over again. How the guards work is never explained, either. Better games like Sly Cooper will use things like the guard's light to show you where not to go, but in Wind Waker it's just for show. Metal Gear Solid and Splinter Cell will have the guards notice you without automatically finding you in situations where you are at least trying to be careful ("What was that noise?") which allows you time to correct yourself, but Wind Waker just has a single mistake put you back in your cell which you've already escaped from half a dozen times. The guards have some kind of limited cone of vision, but you have no idea how far away it is. They also seem to be able to hear or sense you if you get close to them (even with their back turned), but I never was able to figure out what specifically is used to determine that. It would be bad game design even at the end of the game, but to place it as the first major challenge in the game is crazy.

There are plenty of other examples in the game I could use instead, like a horrible sequence where the game asks you to solve a riddle that you can't actually solve (had to check Gamefaqs to figure that out after struggling to do it the right way for a long time). Even the developers later admitted the game was basically rushed (they chopped out at least two dungeons), unpolished, and filled with some poor game design decisions (like the Triforce Quest). I'll accept it's above average just because so many videogames are awful, and there are certainly segments of the game that are great, but the game itself is a mess. This isn't a "but review for a beloved classic Nintendo franchise sequel were pretty good!" issue, this is an issue of "do you have reasonable taste in videogames?"

And I only started this silly argument because he suggested nobody but Nintendo can make games as good as Wind Waker (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=626436&postcount=39). That's a fucking slur against all the game developers who have created wonderful games in that genre. Even if you think Wind Waker is a great game with some admitted flaws that's pushing it. But no he's just another ranting Nintendo zealot - the kind that puts false sales data in his signature to brag about how great of a company Nintendo is - and on some days that kind of shit pisses me off.

[Rirath]

may I just point out that the DS had a terrible third party line up for it's first three quarters. Then it exploded, and today it is pretty much the handheld that you want to own.

You may, but I believe you're disregarding the fact that Nintendo has OWNED the handheld market for ages. The PSP is a nice system, but it's not going to dethrown Nintendo and steal all of their support in one generation. Seriously, where else are handheld developers going to make their games?

So you’re saying you want to know what the response rate is among people who don’t know about the system?

Not people who don't know about the system, people who've seen the system in a store, on TV, heard talk of it on TV, etc. but otherwise would not care about video games.

My point about hardcore gamers "passing it on" is despite what we tend to think here, hardcore gamers are a niche. Casual gamers are also a niche. This is a niche of a niche... and I don't believe it's going to lead to the massive uptake in gamers that many Nintendo fans predict with their friends and family stories.

I suspect these people will play Wii Sports for an afternoon or two then move on.

[mister_slim]

I can't predict the future none, t’aint in my nature to do so. But I look out on the streets, my brothers and sisters, and I see the peoples' hearts. I hear what they is sayin'. I conversates with mah friends n' they friends, and they whispah too me about the Wii. They wants to know how to gets one of these things. They wants the party times with the friends. They wants to play the games that is fun and easy.

Good peoples of Evil Avatar, the folks ain't gettin' bored. They's already bored. And the Wii, it's awakenin' things in them, things they ain't felt in years if evah. Mark my words, my forum brethren: The Wii is gonna go places ain't none console done gone before.

Don't ya see, the DS it was like John the Baptist. It came and promised the peoples that new ways to have fun were a comin’. The Wii is comin' down off tha mountain like Jesus hisself to fulfills them promises. And the peoples, they is thirsty. All of ‘em.
Hey, just wanted to say that's one of the best posts I've read in a while.

[civil_dead]

Hey, just wanted to say that's one of the best posts I've read in a while.
Why, thank ya sir. I will say that your reply is one of the bests I done read in a while, too.

[Camel]

I love the Wii. I expect big things from it. For now though, it's gathering dust (until I finally get around to playing Chibi Robo!).

My 360 is too though. Only things that aren't are my DS and PC.

[Spudcula]

No, really, you mean I was just offering my personal opinion on the internet? No fucking way! I thought I was handing down the goddamn law here!


And no, it isn't a well made game. Poor controls, poor level design, poor pacing. Easy example of all three: the early stealth dungeon was one of the must frustrating things I've ever put up with in a game, because the guards are entirely inconsistent in how they find you. I'm good at videogames, including the stealth genre. But there's no 100% way to know whether they aren't hearing you or seeing you (there's no radar or sound meter), and if they see or hear you you have to restart the whole unbelievably boring and somewhat lengthy segment over again. How the guards work is never explained, either. Better games like Sly Cooper will use things like the guard's light to show you where not to go, but in Wind Waker it's just for show. Metal Gear Solid and Splinter Cell will have the guards notice you without automatically finding you in situations where you are at least trying to be careful ("What was that noise?") which allows you time to correct yourself, but Wind Waker just has a single mistake put you back in your cell which you've already escaped from half a dozen times. The guards have some kind of limited cone of vision, but you have no idea how far away it is. They also seem to be able to hear or sense you if you get close to them (even with their back turned), but I never was able to figure out what specifically is used to determine that. It would be bad game design even at the end of the game, but to place it as the first major challenge in the game is crazy.

There are plenty of other examples in the game I could use instead, like a horrible sequence where the game asks you to solve a riddle that you can't actually solve (had to check Gamefaqs to figure that out after struggling to do it the right way for a long time). Even the developers later admitted the game was basically rushed (they chopped out at least two dungeons), unpolished, and filled with some poor game design decisions (like the Triforce Quest). I'll accept it's above average just because so many videogames are awful, and there are certainly segments of the game that are great, but the game itself is a mess. This isn't a "but review for a beloved classic Nintendo franchise sequel were pretty good!" issue, this is an issue of "do you have reasonable taste in videogames?"

And I only started this silly argument because he suggested nobody but Nintendo can make games as good as Wind Waker (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=626436&postcount=39). That's a fucking slur against all the game developers who have created wonderful games in that genre. Even if you think Wind Waker is a great game with some admitted flaws that's pushing it. But no he's just another ranting Nintendo zealot - the kind that puts false sales data in his signature to brag about how great of a company Nintendo is - and on some days that kind of shit pisses me off.


What? The controls and the camera were great, and so was the stealth segment near the beginning. Yeah, there was no sound meter or anything, but do you really need one? Like the game isn't retard easy as it is? I usually get pissed off whenever I encounter some shitty stealth segment thrown into an otherwise decent action adventure, but Wind Waker's was probably the best attempt at this I've seen in a game that wasn't designed around stealth. This was actually one of the better and more memorable areas of the game for me. Really, my main problem with Wind Waker, as with Ocarina and Twilight Princess, was that the game was too easy. I only died once or twice, and the only part that really stumped me was, of course, the goofy-ass Triforce quest near the end, which I would agree, the game would have been better without. That, and all the sailing. I'd just throw up the sail and go take a piss or something. Overall, I'd say that Wind Waker was probably my second favorite 3D Zelda game, just behind Majora's Mask, which in itself could have been better.

[Skyelan]

You may, but I believe you're disregarding the fact that Nintendo has OWNED the handheld market for ages. The PSP is a nice system, but it's not going to dethrown Nintendo and steal all of their support in one generation. Seriously, where else are handheld developers going to make their games?

They would just not make handheld games at all. I thought that was obvious.

And yes, Nintendo has always owned the handheld market. What I love is how people use that as some sort of shrugging off of the fact that the DS is a world-over phenominon, not just "Hey cool, another Nintendo portable...".

Three years after launch and it's near impossible to find for 3 or 4 months around the holiday season? It's started a trend of games selling steadily and staying on charts for months instead of a quick splooging at launch and then dropping off?

I didn't see almost every 3rd party you could think of lining up to make AA GBA games, and I certainly didn't see the main Dragon Quest series hitting it.

DS is a smash hit with the hardcore, the casual, the non gamer, and the game creators. Trying to shrug off that factor as simply "Well it's just a Nintendo handheld! Nothing special!" is just absurd.

And I have a nice guarentee of at least one large chunk of third party support. Nintendo owns Japan. Anyone with half a brain could see it coming, and now it's happening. The PS3 isn't moving very fast. So what happens? Do the Japanese developers take their games to the filthy capitalist pig gaijin system, or the insanely hyper popular xeno-friendly Nintendo system?

It likely won't have the same effect in other countries and with western developers, not to the same extent, but the idea that the Japanese companies are just gonna blindly put their 'quirky' games on the PS3 just because it's Sony is, well, a fucking ignorant idea.

Hell, though I can see high-power RPGs thriving on the 360, there's a lot of lower-tier RPGs that would work fine on the Wii, with just a traditional control style.

Edit: And besides, I thought you guys (in general, not necisarily the person I'm replying to) were worried that the Wii would rape your childhood and destroy everything you love about gaming, making all your favorite franchises disappear for all eternity and only having a bunch of brain age clones. Seems to me you were pretty sure it had the support all signed up and was prepared to have it's death march against the good and holy gaming establishments that are currently in power? This is an odd 180.

[Rirath]

They would just not make handheld games at all. I thought that was obvious.

... Somehow I find that very doubtful.

DS is a smash hit with the hardcore, the casual, the non gamer, and the game creators. Trying to shrug off that factor as simply "Well it's just a Nintendo handheld! Nothing special!" is just absurd.

Oh come on, what Gameboy hasn't found their way into the hands of every kid around the world since launch? Think of about any series, game, TV show, or etc and you'll find a GBA title made for it. A few elderly folks playing Brain Age doesn't convince me it's doing anything terribly new, it's just doing it what it's always done very well. Yes, the DS is a success. Wonderful. Who'd a thunk it?

it's happening. The PS3 isn't moving very fast. So what happens? Do the Japanese developers take their games to the filthy capitalist pig gaijin system, or the insanely hyper popular xeno-friendly Nintendo system?

I... don't believe Japan has ever thought of us as "capitalist pigs" considering they're the 2nd largest economy and all... but I find the idea of the Wii becoming the go to system for RPGs nearly as unlikely. And the 360? No way.

Give the PS3 time, it'll get there. The PS2 was a DVD player for months. I would not underestimate Japan's loyalty to Sony.

are just gonna blindly put their 'quirky' games on the PS3 just because it's Sony is, well, a fucking ignorant idea.

Could you at least try to keep this civil, like the rest of the thread has been?

were pretty sure it had the support all signed up and was prepared to have it's death march against the good and holy gaming establishments that are currently in power? This is an odd 180.

Somehow it doesn't surprise me you got an idea like this. No, a few quacks out there, die hard Nintendo fans, decided Nintendo was going to do just as you described and wrote a few articles to that effect. The rest of us chuckled a bit and move on.

[Oddmaker]

Everyone i talk to wants a Wii, man even my grandad wants one! and no one says to me they want a PS3 nor an Xbox360.. thats saying something.

[Loganrapp]

The only console I see that's losing is the PS3 right now.

But really, the winner is us; we now have three viable gaming systems, and they're all going to be fighting for our dollar.

And does easi need a Maxi pad or some shit? Shit, I haven't seen this much crazed argumentation since Tom Cruise was declared the next Jesus.

[IRONGUSTAV]

easi is the new nintendofan joke character here?

[IRONGUSTAV]

To those worried about the third party release list for the Wii, may I just point out that the DS had a terrible third party line up for it's first three quarters. Then it exploded, and today it is pretty much the handheld that you want to own. I'm not saying that the same thing will happen to the Wii, but I'd say that a lot of people are going to be carried over to the platform by the success of the DS. Once the Wii has a large install base, third party games will show up. Because regardless of what a certain rival platform's fans may say, customers breed games, not the other way around.


third party releases from japan on ds? ok

thrid party releases form USA or europe on ds? pure crap

and by the way,comparing hand held systems with home consoles its a big mistake..

[RMan]

You may, but I believe you're disregarding the fact that Nintendo has OWNED the handheld market for ages. The PSP is a nice system, but it's not going to dethrown Nintendo and steal all of their support in one generation.
Haven’t heard of the PS1, eh?

[bapenguin]

Everyone i talk to wants a Wii, man even my grandad wants one! and no one says to me they want a PS3 nor an Xbox360.. thats saying something.

It says non gamers want a non gamers system to play pseudo-simulations of real life sports. Because really...that's all it is right now for them.

[Rirath]

Haven’t heard of the PS1, eh?

Again, consoles are not the same as handhelds. Nintendo did not go in the direction many people expected with their consoles. The N64, GC, and now the Wii all show Nintendo's shift in focus. Sony had a real chance to change the industry with the PS1, and they did it. Compare any PS1 RPG to say, Quest 64.

The DS does everything the GBA does and more, while the PSP is a bit expensive and has yet to prove itself. Devs have no real reason to jump ship like before. You're attempting to compare two different systems / markets / situations / time periods with one short quip.

The PSP is doing fairly well in a market where all other competitors have failed. I'd simply be happier if they'd get more new games based on popular Sony franchises and less direct ports. Can't wait for Crisis Core.

[Kelegacy]

It says non gamers want a non gamers system to play pseudo-simulations of real life sports. Because really...that's all it is right now for them.
That's right. People got on my case and called me an elitist when I said it before, but I do not care if my parents or grandfather or the old bitch down the street get into gaming. Traditionally those are not the types of games I'm going to enjoy as much as they. I like the games that are being released currently that cater to traditional gamers, not the casuals. Is it neat that non gamers are becoming interested in the Wii and DS? Yeah. If my mother wants to play a DS, is that cool? Sure. Would I care if she didn't? No. Hence, I don't care. That's not a negative comment, it's an indifferent one.

Non-gamers have no bearing on my gaming, and until more games become dumbed-down for them to enjoy while insulting my own craving for depth and complexity (Mom can't play Civ IV because she finds it too involving?? DUMB IT DOWN! RPGS have too many numbers? TAKE THEM OUT!) I'll continue not to care.

[destoo]

I'll get a wii the day I see Bob Ross on the shelves. (or even as a VC game)

It will happen. Oh yes, it will happen.

[RMan]

Again, consoles are not the same as handhelds.
No two things are the same, but the idea that the comparison doesn’t apply is ludicrous. The idea that people that buy handhelds are driven by a completely different brain that knows only brand loyalty or some other mysterious criteria and then uses a different one when buying consoles is quite silly. People dismiss it because they don’t want to acknowledge it, or they simply don’t understand it and want to write it off. If you want to use the “it’s not the same”, then two different console generations shouldn’t be comparable either because they’re also not the same.
Nintendo did not go in the direction many people expected with their consoles. The N64, GC, and now the Wii all show Nintendo's shift in focus. Sony had a real chance to change the industry with the PS1, and they did it.
Actually, the only thing the N64 didn’t have was a CD, which is what killed it and allowed the PS1 to dominate, and the GC didn’t have anything making it more appealing than the PS2/Xbox, and the lack of a DVD made it a far less attractive choice for many consumers. They were the result of arrogance, bad timing, and technical screw-ups, the N64 couldn’t really be called a “shift in focus” since it was following the same basic formula as the SNES, and the GC’s focus was only on being a cheap system with absolutely nothing else to appeal to developers or consumers over their competition.
The DS does everything the GBA does and more, while the PSP is a bit expensive and has yet to prove itself. Devs have no real reason to jump ship like before.
The N64 does everything the SNES does, and more, just like the DS. Developers jumped ship from the N64 because of the cost of cartridges, and many have/will avoid the PS3/360 in favor of the Wii for cost reasons as well.
You're attempting to compare two different systems / markets / situations / time periods with one short quip.
Yea, that’s because nobody can come up with a single reason or logical explanation as to why they’re so different (and the explanation for that is pretty simple, because they’re not magically different).
The PSP is doing fairly well in a market where all other competitors have failed. I'd simply be happier if they'd get more new games based on popular Sony franchises and less direct ports. Can't wait for Crisis Core.
Yea, I’d agree that without looking at the DS, the PSP is doing OK. The point, however, is that before the PSP’s launch and for some time after it, it was a foregone conclusion that it would be the system of choice for gamers and that it would ultimately dominate the market. This “unbeatable Nintendo lock on handhelds” concept wasn’t generally expressed until Sony was beaten (made more painful because of their superior hardware and game market dominance). Hardcore gamers just don’t want to face the fact that the vast majority of gamers aren’t really that concerned with the “power” of the system, but are only concerned with the joy it brings them (crazy consumers).

[pacman]

Yea, I’d agree that without looking at the DS, the PSP is doing OK. The point, however, is that before the PSP’s launch and for some time after it, it was a foregone conclusion that it would be the system of choice for gamers and that it would ultimately dominate the market. This “unbeatable Nintendo lock on handhelds” concept wasn’t generally expressed until Sony was beaten (made more painful because of their superior hardware and game market dominance).

I was about to say the same thing myself, although in a bit different of terms. People were spouting about big N's unbeatable hold, then the PSP started to gain momentum and it was all doom and gloom for Nintendo and the DS looked almost dead in the water during its first year of release. Then, DS exploded and now we're back where we started, with Nintendo's 'unbeatable hold.' People need to make up their minds, or, more accurately, admit when they were wrong.

As for the Wii/360/PS3 argument, I'm honestly tired of it. Everyone thinks the system they don't personally like is going to lose, or at least looking for reasons it's going to lose. For my part, I would be happy if PS3 went down in a ball of flames because I don't want a $600 Blu-ray player, but once games come out that I want for it, I'm sure I'll be on that bandwagon soon enough.
The 360 is only finally releasing the games everyone promised would be coming last year, so other than a superb XBOX Live component it doesn't have a lot to crow about. And the Wii? Let's just say that people are more excited about games they played 15 years ago or more instead of the 5 or so games actually made for the system. I own a Wii, and to be honest I think TP is overrated and a bit boring, and I am so fucking tired of waiting 9 months between first-party Nintendo releases I could scream (and I don't count Wii Play even though I may buy it). And could someone please name me a compelling third party title for the Wii, because right now I don't think there is one that caters to a large enough market to sell systems.

[51|RandoM]

and the GC didn’t have anything making it more appealing than the PS2/Xbox, and the lack of a DVD made it a far less attractive choice for many consumers.

In terms of pure hardware the GC was a better game console than the ps2. It had stuff to make it more appealing, what it didn't have was an install base to overcome the Nintendo fear. Maybe the Wii will. I kind of doubt it, since they're giving up the tech war and trying to take a different path.

Long story short, for me the Wii isn't a competitor to either the PS3 or the 360, it is just a console to play Nintendo games on. When they release a new Paper Mario for it, I'll be in line to buy one. :p

[boratika]

It's looking more and more like MS owns that genre this generation...FF XIII excepted (for now).

You seem to have misspelled DS ;)

[RMan]

In terms of pure hardware the GC was a better game console than the ps2. It had stuff to make it more appealing, what it didn't have was an install base to overcome the Nintendo fear.
Not sure what you mean by Nintendo fear, but I think from a consumer perspective the only significant shortcomming was the DVD. In terms of power, all three were so close that the vast majority of consumers and developers weren't going to be swayed by technical differences (even if they perceived them correctly), but the lack of a DVD was critical. I'm not suggesting that consumers were saying "I must have a DVD player on my gaming console" but rather "If I'm getting a game console, why not the one with a DVD". From a developer standpoint, you were going to have to deal with a smaller storage medium, so that makes cross platform titles even less attractive for many. In short, a large portion of the gaming community was either going to get a PS2 or an Xbox for the DVD support (I’m sure many when buying these said “it’ll be nice to have a backup” even if they already had a DVD). IMO, if it wasn’t for Nintendo’s first party titles, it’d have little chance of even reaching Dreamcast numbers, it just didn’t compete with the PS2/Xbox in any relevant way other than price (and a lower price doesn’t make it attractive, only less unattractive :)).

And really, in the end it didn't/doesn't have a bad install base, it's close to the Xbox1, but the problem with 3rd parties is that the majority of customers with a GC are going to have a PS2 and/or Xbox as well, and would likely buy the port for one of those, so why would a developer bother with the GC version much less an exclusive?

[rainbowblack]

Finished Zelda, and I've scarce touched my Wii since.

no big game on the horizon, VC spewing crap games. I've rediscovered my 360, thank you lost planet and soon to be purchased SotN

I'd like to play Metal Slug and I hear Elebits can be fun but seriously i bought my Wii for two reasons. VC and umpteenth sequels of Nintendo staples. so yeah i'm screwed till
Metriod or SSBM. Though i'm sure some good things will come from the VC in the meantime and i don't means MP-less Mario Kart 64. I will buy Wii-Play though. i think i family got tired of WiiSports and plus i need a 4th Wiimote

My wii honeymoon is over. And by this time next year iIcould be looking for a divorce if a strong library is not there

[blankoboy]

Funny, what "market" are you looking at? Seems to me the 360 is doing quite well, and the PS3 seems to be fine in Japan. Just because Nintendo has moved a good deal of systems hardly means they've cornered the market.

PS3 seems to be fine in Japan? You obviously aren't visting the local Yodabashi and Bic camera's with me on the way to my office everyday to laugh at the giant piles of PS3's stacked behind the counters. ;)

ps - That said the DS Lite and Wii's are generally still sold out everywhere here too. Hrmm....

[Phanto]

Well the Wii is a big hit there is no point discussing that right now but they really need to take games online.
Sometimes I wonder why they didn't released Wii Sports with online support, at launch you could already sent Miis via internet Wii Sport is based on the Miis so why they didn't include some kind of online support to that game ( when I said "some kind" I mean that they should have created a different infrastructure for online support Wii Sports only since they havn't released their plan yet of online multiplayer. )

[DangerousDaze]

http://www.nexgenwars.com

Have a nice day. Cunt.
I don't believe I've seen anyone called a cunt before on EvAv. I thought I read recently that Nintendo actually sold 3.19 million consoles by the end of '06 (in this (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24390) thread). Also, if you consider that the words used were:sold and delivered 3.19 million to its distributors and retail customers around the worldyou could argue that these are part sold/part shipped numbers, not purely sold.

Tbh I couldn't care less. The Wii is a great success - that's beyond argument - I just don't like to see language like that.

[Fartacus]

Metroid Prime 3 and such will be a good start, but too little, too late to pull them from 3rd place overall when all is said and done. (Perhaps 2nd place until Sony picks up steam by the end of '07, start of '08.)

Apparently you're not paying attention. It's Sony that needs to be pulling themselves from 3rd place, Wii is eating PS3's lunch.

[pawnblue]

Non-gamers have no bearing on my gaming, and until more games become dumbed-down for them to enjoy while insulting my own craving for depth and complexity I'll continue not to care.

You should care. MS cares that people are willing to pay $250 for Wii Sports. MS and Sony are already thinking about how to mimic the Wii's success.

As the apostle said earlier, people are already bored. We've all played every game on the 360 before. Better graphics and small gameplay improvements aren't going to excite me much.

But a remote that is a baseball bat (and could be a lightsaber, just one good online sword game please)? That makes pressing A to swing seem outdated to me.

[UnderHero5]

Finished Zelda, and I've scarce touched my Wii since.

no big game on the horizon, VC spewing crap games. I've rediscovered my 360, thank you lost planet and soon to be purchased SotN

I'd like to play Metal Slug and I hear Elebits can be fun but seriously i bought my Wii for two reasons. VC and umpteenth sequels of Nintendo staples. so yeah i'm screwed till
Metriod or SSBM. Though i'm sure some good things will come from the VC in the meantime and i don't means MP-less Mario Kart 64. I will buy Wii-Play though. i think i family got tired of WiiSports and plus i need a 4th Wiimote

My wii honeymoon is over. And by this time next year iIcould be looking for a divorce if a strong library is not there
Am I the only one who looks at a consoles library before buying it and makes sure there are at least a few games out for it that I want?

I don't understand why I see so many people saying things like that. "I beat Zelda and now there's nothing to play"... then why did you buy a Wii? That could have been another Wii out there for people who aren't afraid to only play Nintendo games on it. You could have bought Zelda on the Cube and picked a Wii up when there was more than one game you wanted.

Buy Trauma Center, for fucks sake! Pick up Excite Truck (great arcade racer)! Look into Super Swing Golf if you want a great golf game that has awesome controls and is hard to master with tons of unlockables and replay value. I mean there aren't the "big name games" on the Wii yet, but there are some genuinely great third party games on the Wii already (which is why I bought one at launch. I don't even own Zelda as I don't like the games).

Why do people buy consoles then bitch that there are no games for them to play. Don't buy it until there are! Why don't I own a 360? Because there are maybe 2 games that I have any interest in on the console at this point. It's all a matter of taste, I know, but know your taste then look through the consoles library and make some educated guesses about what games you'd like. Read reviews, forums, impression, etc. Do I really need to be explaining this?

[easi]

I thought I read recently that Nintendo actually sold 3.19 million consoles by the end of '06

It's now A MONTH LATER. An eon in launch-window terms. Stop using out-of-date numbers to prove half-baked points, people.

[Johan]

...for me the Wii isn't a competitor to either the PS3 or the 360, it is just a console to play Nintendo games on.

Same sentiment for me...

You seem to have misspelled DS ;)

:D I do seem to have made that mistake! Actually, I was just thinking in terms of consoles, not handhelds (and not making any arguments between them, either...).

[Lutheran]

But the usage of two Wii puns in various titles in the article probably tells us all we need to know about the author's...position on things. The Wii will probably be massively successful in the end (though I'll be surprised if it even manages N64-levels of success), but it's clear this author is definitely still on his honeymoon.


Your crazy if you think the Wii won't reach N64 levels of success. My aunt and uncle bought a Wii and own 3 games for it already. They love Wii sports for the tennis and bowling and golf and they just bought Wario Ware and Trauma Center..50 year old people who never bought a console in their lives...what sold them? Not me..it was the damn video that plays all day long in the local Best Buy stores. Every time I go in that store their are always 3-6 people watching the video. I already own the damn console and I still watch the video lol. As long as they make a lot of DS style games for that system ( Brain age type games and Wii sports type of games ) people who dont normally play games and buy this system will continue to use it and not put it in some closet. Of course for gamers like us we need to have one of the other 2 systems as well ( I have all 3 and the PS3 while lacking in games excites me just as much as the other 2 ).

[Lutheran]

Why, thank ya sir. I will say that your reply is one of the bests I done read in a while, too.

Ya damn man I even read your post to myself like I was a character in the show Deadwood. You done me proud , your not like the other hoopleheads on this darn board.

[DangerousDaze]

It's now A MONTH LATER. An eon in launch-window terms. Stop using out-of-date numbers to prove half-baked points, people.
The 3.19 million figure is from Nintendo's own Q3 financial results released 3 days ago, whereas your figures are from a dubious website which doesn't even state its sources.

[bitwise]

Am I the only one who looks at a consoles library before buying it and makes sure there are at least a few games out for it that I want?

I don't understand why I see so many people saying things like that. "I beat Zelda and now there's nothing to play"... then why did you buy a Wii? That could have been another Wii out there for people who aren't afraid to only play Nintendo games on it. You could have bought Zelda on the Cube and picked a Wii up when there was more than one game you wanted.

Buy Trauma Center, for fucks sake! Pick up Excite Truck (great arcade racer)! Look into Super Swing Golf if you want a great golf game that has awesome controls and is hard to master with tons of unlockables and replay value. I mean there aren't the "big name games" on the Wii yet, but there are some genuinely great third party games on the Wii already (which is why I bought one at launch. I don't even own Zelda as I don't like the games).

Why do people buy consoles then bitch that there are no games for them to play. Don't buy it until there are! Why don't I own a 360? Because there are maybe 2 games that I have any interest in on the console at this point. It's all a matter of taste, I know, but know your taste then look through the consoles library and make some educated guesses about what games you'd like. Read reviews, forums, impression, etc. Do I really need to be explaining this?

Well said. Bears repearing.

[xyz]

Guys... only 2 months! Will be hardcore games very soon... i hope soo :)

[xyz]

Someone have the wii sales number? 3mi? 4mi? how much?

[civil_dead]

Well said. Bears repearing.
Psst. The bear art thread is a couple of doors down.

As for them reappearing - I had that problem too. Try to not hit the Refresh button.

[hund_]

i can buy a ps3 or a xbox 360 but have not seen a wii yet.
did they shut down the factory after christmas ;)

[Morratut]

I am a bit wary about my Wii purchase until I see a list of upcoming games. I wish Nintendo didnt play future releases so close to the chest.

This is the reason why I won't buy the Wii until I know it has great 3rd party support.

[Vader582]

Death to the Gamecube 1.1, I mean the Wii.

When we have Granny/Grampie and Susie Soccer Mom playing more than Wii Sports and actaully buying 3 or 4 more games for their Wii...then we can all start to talk about Nintendo doing well, until then easi, get up off your knees and zip Nintendo's fly up...you're whoring yourself... :D

[Verocity]

Hehe, I love all you guys but you just *don't* get it. I will state that I am biased towards Nintendo. I mean, I grew up with the thing. However, my story is fact but my opinions you can take any way you like.

I'm 32, married, and have a daughter who is 6yrs old. We got a house, cars, etc. and plenty of disposable income. I'm a big gamer, and my wife and daughter enjoy them casually. We all love the DS Lite even though I bought it and hardly get to play it. I asked my wife about getting a Wii before Xmas. She said no, we don't need one so I said ok. I'm waiting for some of the killer 1st party game any ways.

Well, a friend brought his over last week. It was my first experience with the thing as well and man, did we have fun. You know what the best part was? I was playing bowling, tennis, etc. with my wife AND daughter. That is what you guys do not understand here and is what is going to make this thing bigger than a 360 or PS3 could ever dream to be.

Needless to say, last Saturday she went to SEVEN stores until she got lucky and found one. Of course I had to take my jab about her stating we didn't need one. I got a dirty look but it was worth it. :)

Fast forward to Sunday and we are at my parents house. My mother and father, who are in their 50s, and my 2 cousins that are home from the military in their early 20s, and my brother who is 18. My grandparents were there also, but they left before we brought the Wii out unfortunately. We all played for 2 hours straight. My dad I expected to play but my mom? She's never touched a video game in her entire life. I remember her chastising me when I was playing the original Nintendo when I was 10 years old yet there she was, fighting for her next turn at Wii bowling.

It's not about how cool gears looks. It's not about JRPGs. And sorry to burst all of your bubbles, it sure as hell is not about us hardcore gamers who think graphics and gameplay rule the day.

It's about for every one of us, there are 10+ more who do not play games but will play, enjoy, and purchase a Wii and STILL have no idea what an XBox or PS3 is. Ease of use and damn fun to play with family and friends. For everyone that sits in their basement playing Resistance alone, 10 more will be upstairs enjoying a Wii and wanting to buy one themselves.

And Nintendo, you can take THAT to the bank!

[Vader582]

You Nintendo furries better hope you're picking the right horse. Because if you're right, we going to get games like "Salon Cuts" and "Let's Hug It Out" for Nintendo Wii.
Think about who Nintendo is targeting. Verocity's posts just prove it. Games like GoW, MGS etc will go the wayside when developers can make cheap crap games and reap a huge profit. It's similar to several years ago (and somewhat now) when networks made tons of reality shows and gave up/cancelled well-produced TV programs. Reality shows are cheap to produce and the masses flock to them like moths to the flame. Do you want gaming to end up like a second rate reality TV show?!
Turn potential Wii buyers into your local police right away. Help eliminate this problem before it's out of control. Would you like to know more??? ;)

[Serapth]

You Nintendo furries better hope you're picking the right horse. Because if you're right, we going to get games like "Salon Cuts" and "Let's Hug It Out" for Nintendo Wii.
Think about who Nintendo is targeting. Verocity's posts just prove it. Games like GoW, MGS etc will go the wayside when developers can make cheap crap games and reap a huge profit. It's similar to several years ago (and somewhat now) when networks made tons of reality shows and gave up/cancelled well-produced TV programs. Reality shows are cheap to produce and the masses flock to them like moths to the flame. Do you want gaming to end up like a second rate reality TV show?!
Turn potential Wii buyers into your local police right away. Help eliminate this problem before it's out of control. Would you like to know more??? ;)


This is true and a big fear of mine aswell. Im quite content with the current state of gaming, and I dont want to see it replaced with cheap gimicky party games.

[Verocity]

You Nintendo furries better hope you're picking the right horse. Because if you're right, we going to get games like "Salon Cuts" and "Let's Hug It Out" for Nintendo Wii.
Think about who Nintendo is targeting. Verocity's posts just prove it. Games like GoW, MGS etc will go the wayside when developers can make cheap crap games and reap a huge profit. It's similar to several years ago (and somewhat now) when networks made tons of reality shows and gave up/cancelled well-produced TV programs. Reality shows are cheap to produce and the masses flock to them like moths to the flame. Do you want gaming to end up like a second rate reality TV show?!
Turn potential Wii buyers into your local police right away. Help eliminate this problem before it's out of control. Would you like to know more??? ;)

LOL that is funny but scary at the same time. While I agree whole heartedly that I want nothing to do with the changing of our current gaming culture, the Wii is here, making money, and others are noticing it. If Salon Cuts sells a million copies then you better believe companies will flock to where the money is.

Could this be the beginning of the end of hardcore gaming?

I'm gonna go hide in the corner with my PC for a while...

[Gorvi]

This is true and a big fear of mine aswell. Im quite content with the current state of gaming, and I dont want to see it replaced with cheap gimicky party games.

But grandmas and grandpas will play them!!!! Doesn't that excite you? Who needs deep, rewarding games when non-gamers everywhere are buying simple gimicky party games to play?

[Serapth]

But grandmas and grandpas will play them!!!! Doesn't that excite you? Who needs deep, rewarding games when non-gamers everywhere are buying simple gimicky party games to play?


It happened before with a little company called atari. They made it into the mainstream and publishers quickly realized they could sell any crap they wanted to. Then, KABOOM, industry implodes under the festuring weight of its own crap and gaming goes back to a niche market.

The more things change....

[easi]

A bunch of nobodies on an internet message board are predicting the downfall of Nintendo while both their hardware offerings are selling out everywhere and reaping millions upon millions of pure PROFIT.

What is this, Slashdot??

[Gorvi]

A bunch of nobodies on an internet message board are predicting the downfall of Nintendo while both their hardware offerings are selling out everywhere and reaping millions upon millions of pure PROFIT.

What is this, Slashdot??

The course that Nintendo seems to currently be on with the Wii runs the risk of watering down the industry. Look at any mainstream medium, whether it's movies, music, or TV, and you'll see, on average, an inferior product. Mass appeal is not what the industry needs for growth, it stunts innovation. It leads to a lot of 'safe' products (by this I mean the games themselves, not the console itself).

I love my DS because it does great things as a portable console, but when I sit down on my couch in front of my TV for a nice gaming session, I want more than a short burst of fun. I want an immersive, deep, engaging experience that challenges me on multiple levels, something I know my grandparents wouldn't be looking for, and more than likely wouldn't understand. And I'm ok with that.

Maybe it's that I grew up being a punk fan, but seeing things trying to go mainstream for the sake of it just doesn't sit right with me.

[civil_dead]

Death to the Gamecube 1.1, I mean the Wii.

When we have Granny/Grampie and Susie Soccer Mom playing more than Wii Sports and actaully buying 3 or 4 more games for their Wii...then we can all start to talk about Nintendo doing well, until then easi, get up off your knees and zip Nintendo's fly up...you're whoring yourself... :D
I'm sorry Dark Helmet #4893, Dark Helmets #'s 1-4892 agreed that the Wii is just beginning its domination. They realized that it doesn't matter if all the Wii Converts only buy one game or buy 23. The fact is, they bought the console. Nintendo's foot is already in the door of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people who treat the 360 & PS3 like Jehovah's Witnesses come to the door on Superbowl Sunday. That is why they will eventually win.

As for whoring, I for one welcome our new Console Overlords with open orifi.

[Yellowman]

My god you guys, you just sound like the biggest total geeks ever. It's something you don't 'get' and you react with scorn, derision and fear. Truly pathetic, you run around like chickens with their heads cut off. I swear Serapth is playing a part, like he originally decided 'I'm going to tell everyone I bought a wii and that at first I liked it, then tell them how much I hate it now'. I'm sorry you guys don't enjoy gaming with friends and family, I'm sorry the only way you can enjoy gaming is by sipping testorone and playing Gears and I'm truly sorry that you don't get the Wii but you know what you can do? Stop posting in these stories, stop flinging stuff at Nintendo in the face of the massive successes they have.

Constructive criticism of Nintendo is interesting and by god have they made mistakes, but saying that 'casual' gaming offends you and somehow it is going to ruin your gaming experience is ridiculous, your market isn't going to go away! Testorone filled boys are all part of the mainstream experience, just look at films. And the comparison to Atari, my god where did that argument come from? Try to be a mature gamer, someone who understands that a great expansion of market can bring adavantages to everybody. Just look at the PS1, it finally bought gaming out of the children's market, now Nintendo will bring it out of the 'kidult' market. And everyone will reap the rewards! If people really start to take an interest think of how gaming could expand, plots written by coherent writers, voice acting done by people who can actually act, interfaces that are even more radical than the Wii.

Mini-games are the easiest way to grab people's attention, think about it, your love of computer games came from Final Fantasy 7, but the first games you played were things like Tetris (im generalising here but the point is valid) or sport sims. The deep involved gaming came later. And what an experience that could be with the force of mass market, because the thing about a fringe is, its not a fringe without a mainstream.

P.S. The plural of orifice is orifices, like devices.

[civil_dead]

P.S. The plural of orifice is orifices, like devices.
Thank you oh Obvious Sage of the Internets. But using orifices is no where near as fun or hip (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Orifi).

P.S. I also hate it when chickens run around with their heads cut off. I especially hate it when those heads bounce around, find themselves on a keyboard and through sheer luck in their bounce type in uninteresting statements like "biggest total geeks ever". Oh those crazy chicken heads!

[Yellowman]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

My god I just spat out my chocolote milk and cheetos. That was so funny. The way you put me down like that. It was amazing. And of course orifi is a really cool word, you must of spent hours in your basement laughing at how funny it is to use a made up retarded word. And shit its in the urban dictionary as well so it must be cool

[Vader582]

I find it funny how many Nintendo-philes revert to talking about others "who live in a basement" all the while they are waving their arms around like an 8 year-old girl on Red Bull and coffee beans to move a few pixels. Some of you people are not getting the delicate balance of humor and "terror" that this subject holds.
To whomever mentioned something about Hollywood and all their testosterone filled movies of late. Have you actually seen many that were good? I doubt it. That is the slippery slope gaming is riding.
When things go mainstream, the people at the forefront...the ones who made the subject/item popular get pushed aside. A prefer example is music...someone mentioned punk. We started with the Ramones and the Sex Pistols etc, but today we, after the punk/hard rock has become mainstream, we end up with wanna-bes such as Good Charlotte and the like. Tell me going mainstream is a positive now? :D

[HardScores]

Vader582:
Because if a company makes more money with their games or hardware, they have more money to make niche titles. The PlayStation 2 is mainstream, so I'm sorry to burst your hipster bubble. But thanks to games like Metal Gear that make assloads of money for Konami we also get games like Katamari Damacy. For every Halo 2 there is a Viva Pinata

[Serapth]

We started with the Ramones and the Sex Pistols etc, but today we, after the punk/hard rock has become mainstream, we end up with wanna-bes such as Good Charlotte and the like. Tell me going mainstream is a positive now? :D


You know, ive loved punk for a very long time, but frankly the Sex Pistols sucked. Frankly, alot of punk sucks musically. Zero talent bands screaming meaningless quasi political rants that you cant understand anyways because the lead singer isnt actually any good at singing. As much as you may hate a band like Green Day for example, they are more musically talented then the Sex Pistols ever were.

[RMan]

It's similar to several years ago (and somewhat now) when networks made tons of reality shows and gave up/cancelled well-produced TV programs. Reality shows are cheap to produce and the masses flock to them like moths to the flame. Do you want gaming to end up like a second rate reality TV show?!
That's not a very rational concern. First off, it's not as if scripted television got “replaced” when those shows were at the height of their popularity, I’m sure many lesser scripted shows got canned, but there was, and is, plenty of scripted TV shows. Animated programs are also well liked by producers because they’re cheap, and I’m sure many of you guys enjoy those. I’m quite happy that there is a variety of TV shows to choose from, and not just 24, lost, and a bunch of 24 and lost rip-offs (although I love those two shows). Variety in games is far less of a problem since they don’t have to fight for time slots, so this fear of having more variety in gaming is just silly to me.

Seriously, has the casual game market on cell phones or any other system slowed the production of big budget games? I certainly see no evidence of it.

[Serapth]

Variety in games is far less of a problem since they don’t have to fight for time slots, so this fear of having more variety in gaming is just silly to me.


Thats simply not true. If anything in gaming its the oppposite. Game sales are so front loaded ( aka, when its a "New Release" ). Instead of duking it out for a timeslot, instead its shelf space. Many very good games went unnoticed becase they released at a poor time.

[RMan]

Thats simply not true. If anything in gaming its the oppposite. Game sales are so front loaded ( aka, when its a "New Release" ). Instead of duking it out for a timeslot, instead its shelf space. Many very good games went unnoticed becase they released at a poor time.
Hopefully you’re not suggesting that big budget or otherwise successful games are frequently being pushed off the shelf for casual/experimental products. In TV, they would have to be, but in gaming they would be smaller/online products, the games causing the effect you refer to are the big budget games. Retail space has been gradually shrinking for many years, especially for PC games, my point is that it isn’t going to be made worse by expanding the customer base. Games like Okami will be pushed aside for extra shelf space for the latest Final Fantasy, blame for that can not, and will never be rightfully placed at the feet of casual games.

[Serapth]

Hopefully you’re not suggesting that big budget or otherwise successful games are frequently being pushed off the shelf for casual/experimental products. In TV, they would have to be, but in gaming they would be smaller/online products, the games causing the effect you refer to are the big budget games. Retail space has been gradually shrinking for many years, especially for PC games, my point is that it isn’t going to be made worse by expanding the customer base. Games like Okami will be pushed aside for extra shelf space for the latest Final Fantasy, blame for that can not, and will never be rightfully placed at the feet of casual games.


I think we got our arguments crossed somewhere.... I am simply saying that like TV time slots, there is a finite amount of shelf space available and a short window in which games sell. Releasing a game at the same time as a monster hit, is like releasing a TV at the same time another network is running a monster of a show. Im simply arguing that TV and Games arent that dissimilar in this regard. Some games like Beyond Good and Evil, took big hits in initial sales because of when they launch and who they launched beside.

[Spigot]

Mini-games are the easiest way to grab people's attention, think about it, your love of computer games came from Final Fantasy 7, but the first games you played were things like Tetris (im generalising here but the point is valid) or sport sims. The deep involved gaming came later. And what an experience that could be with the force of mass market, because the thing about a fringe is, its not a fringe without a mainstream.
You know what, I think that might be the best thing said on this subject so far.

While I love my deep gaming experiences as much as the rest of us who hang out here, I know for a fact that when I try to show that kind of game off to a non-gamer it just scares them off. They can sometimes appreciate a pretty game but the complexity of a game that we intuitively can pick up and play just frightens them.

Unlike Serapth, I'm NOT particularly happy with the current state of gaming. Things are getting very stale these days and the few games that try to go outside of the boundaries dictated by the established genres very rarely survive, regardless of how good they are.

While I am glad that we have games like Gears that are a natural evolution of the shooter genre and all that, I'm just not finding myself getting very excited about most, if any, of the games out for the 360 or PS3. 99% of them are just the same old gaming experiences I've been having for the past 20+ years with a shinier coat of paint on them. The Wii, on the other hand, has enabled me to experience games, some derivative, some not, in a whole new way. That is what counts for me. Some people want that shiny paint job. Others, like myself, want something different.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, we need to wait for the Wii to get over that first year hump like the DS did. I didn't have any urge to get a DS until after it had been out for a year or so and developers started designing games around the platform and its interface instead of just slapping a hackneyed port onto it. So far, MOST of the third-party games for the Wii are like those early DS games. That said, there are several games (I've got 7 already) that DO get the idea and really show what the system can do. Sure, it takes some time to wrap your head around the whole new interface but it does become second nature after a bit. I hated the way Zelda controlled when I first started playing it but now I have a hard time imagining how I'd play the Cube version after mastering the sword slashes and other tricks on the Wii.

But that's just me.

And Serapth, stop being so grumpy. You're giving Canadians a bad name. We must all be polite automotons!

[Serapth]

And Serapth, stop being so grumpy. You're giving Canadians a bad name. We must all be polite automotons!


I'm not being grumpy, Im just treating Nintendo with the same critical eye I treat Microsoft and Sony. Something many people seem not to be able to do.

[Spigot]

But they're Nintendo! They're infallible!

Forgive him, Mario, he knows not what he says.

[RMan]

I think we got our arguments crossed somewhere.... I am simply saying that like TV time slots, there is a finite amount of shelf space available and a short window in which games sell. Releasing a game at the same time as a monster hit, is like releasing a TV at the same time another network is running a monster of a show. Im simply arguing that TV and Games arent that dissimilar in this regard. Some games like Beyond Good and Evil, took big hits in initial sales because of when they launch and who they launched beside.
Yea, but the comment I was responding to was the TV comparison in terms of crappy games/shows or cheap shows killing off good, traditional shows. I think there is far less chance of that in games because of the multiple distribution methods. Your argument kinda went on a tangent, I would agree that big games hurt good “mid list” titles, and in that respect they’re more similar, but that only applies to retail games. Even in terms of retail, the game shelf space has shrunk because retailers have learned that the bulk of their profit is being made by the heavily marketed, sequel, and/or licensed products and reduced retail space in reaction to that. In contrast, the TV market seems to be steadily growing, and I think the extreme versatility of the TV market helps that.

In short, yea, you’re correct if looking at retail products and the effect of high profile titles on it, but that’s not the argument I was refuting (your argument actually more supports it in that respect). That finite retail space would clearly grow if there were more than a handful of products people were willing to buy (not that I care much, games will be primarily online distributed in no more than 10 years).

[Vader582]

Vader582:
Because if a company makes more money with their games or hardware, they have more money to make niche titles. The PlayStation 2 is mainstream, so I'm sorry to burst your hipster bubble. But thanks to games like Metal Gear that make assloads of money for Konami we also get games like Katamari Damacy. For every Halo 2 there is a Viva Pinata

Perhaps I've not made myself clear. The PS2 was never marketed towards old people, soccer-moms and the like. So I'm really sorry to burst your snot-nosed brat bubble but the Wii IS being marketed to those groups. Can you really sit there and tell me that there is no potential for that to become a negative?! Don't kid yourself.

BTW, were I a "hipster", as you put it, wouldn't I want/have a Wii?:D It's the console EVERYONE is busting a nut over...hrm. :rolleyes:

RE: Punk music: I used punk only as an example. Not really a huge fan of the genre. The Ramones I like, Sex Pistols not so much.

[mister_slim]

The course that Nintendo seems to currently be on with the Wii runs the risk of watering down the industry. Look at any mainstream medium, whether it's movies, music, or TV, and you'll see, on average, an inferior product. Mass appeal is not what the industry needs for growth, it stunts innovation. It leads to a lot of 'safe' products (by this I mean the games themselves, not the console itself).

I love my DS because it does great things as a portable console, but when I sit down on my couch in front of my TV for a nice gaming session, I want more than a short burst of fun. I want an immersive, deep, engaging experience that challenges me on multiple levels, something I know my grandparents wouldn't be looking for, and more than likely wouldn't understand. And I'm ok with that.

Maybe it's that I grew up being a punk fan, but seeing things trying to go mainstream for the sake of it just doesn't sit right with me.
I symphathize a bit with your fears, but at the same time your argument sounds like Borys ranting about Oblivion and Bioshock.

[theguido]

Well, I personally think Wario Ware is the best game released for the Wii so far, so that has given it a little more life. Not to mention the uber VC games that have been coming out recently.

[fitbabits]

I don't believe I've seen anyone called a cunt before on EvAv.
It happened one time before and I banned the person responsible for using such a reprehensible word. Something I'm very willing to do should the same thing be repeated.

[ElPresidente]

What is this honeymoon period everyone is talking about. My Wii got relegated to third place behind the PS2 and 360 after the first two days with the system.

It has a lot of promise but at the moment it is one big gimmick.

Get your act together Nintendo.

[easi]

My Wii is currently in first place, where it should be in any sane person's mind.

Oh, and hey - last gen called. They want their gfx cards back.

[Vader582]

My Wii is currently in first place, where it should be in any sane person's mind.

Oh, and hey - last gen called. They want their gfx cards back.

Your idiocy continues to make me smile. :D You have the gall to criticize the man's gfx card when you bought a GameCube 1.1?!!?! Priceless! :)
Why don't you quit deep-throating that Wii-mote and join us in reality for a bit. Sounds like it might do you some good. :rolleyes:

[Spigot]

Your idiocy continues to make me smile. :D You have the gall to criticize the man's gfx card when you bought a GameCube 1.1?!!?! Priceless! :)
Why don't you quit deep-throating that Wii-mote and join us in reality for a bit. Sounds like it might do you some good. :rolleyes:
Wow... you're just too hardcore for the rest of us. We'll just go back to having fun instead of comparing spec sheets.

[mister_slim]

Wow... you're just too hardcore for the rest of us. We'll just go back to having fun instead of comparing spec sheets.
Nintendo spec sheets are for kids. They're too colorful and cartoony, and they're too different the old kinda spec sheets I'm used to. Sony's spec sheets are just too expensive for the mass market, and you can just feel the arrogance coming off the page. Luckily, Microsoft's spec sheets are only slightly too expensive, and they can be connected to all kinds of other spec sheets (even if it costs extra).

[Vader582]

Wow... you're just too hardcore for the rest of us. We'll just go back to having fun instead of comparing spec sheets.

Hey Wiidiot, read before you post. Your fellow Wiidiot, easi, was the one critizing someone else's specs, on their PC nonetheless.

[Spigot]

Hey Wiidiot, read before you post. Your fellow Wiidiot, easi, was the one critizing someone else's specs, on their PC nonetheless.I'm bored, so I'll bite.

I don't see any reference to a PC thing aside from the graphics card jab, which could have easily been talking about the fact that he had the PS2 ahead of the Wii. That was beside the point.

What I was making fun of was your extraordinarily hostile tone in EVERY SINGLE POST you've made in this thread. If your profile didn't say that you were a year older than me, I'd swear you were about 12 and trying to act all tough and mature.

Some of us aren't out to try to be all 'hardcore' and l33t d00ds like you seem to be. We chase the fun wherever it may go. It might be on the 360 or PS3, it might be on the Wii, heck, it might be on my Gamegear!

Most of us around here are a bit beyond the 'Nintendo is for Kiddiez' type of thinking. We just want good games that keep us entertained.

Is the Wii perfect? No. Is the Wiimote control scheme anything more than a gimmick? Maybe. Is the Wii better than the 360 or PS3 from a technical standpoint? No. Does that mean it automatically sucks? NO!

Granted, I think your sig sums it up. If all you want is shinier graphics? Go nuts. Hate the Wii. Just stop being such a prick about it. A lot of us who actually own the system are having quite a bit of fun with it. Most of us also have 360s and/or PS3s. Acting like you're some kind of macho man because you think the Wii is bad won't really earn you much respect around here and will probably just relegate you to the pantheon of Trolls that have come and gone before you.

Though I do like that Wiidiot term. Thanks!

[Chameleo]

yellowman said some good stuff, but called everyone geeks.

vader is abrasive and close-minded.

wii is doing fine and will carve out its own market, there will always be a place for hardcore gamers; because hardcore gamers have money; and companies want money.

one of the hardest core (or is it hard corest?) games of last year has a huuuuge install base, that being world of warcraft.

i bet you at least 50% of the people who picked up a wii would not touch WoW with a 10 ft pole, yet you have 8mil people subscribed to it.

hardcore gaming isn't going anywhere.

though hardcore gamers like vader now have someone they can point at and laught at because they now have some kind of superiority complex over people who play games at inferior resolutions and complexities.

[Vader582]

Obviously my winks and grins have been wasted here. Most of my gabs were made after someone else threw the first swing. You can't tell me all your cohorts have been acting like perfect respectable human beings. Believe it or not I do have an open mind (I have a DS, tyvm). I was this jaded about the PS3 but then I got my hands on one and that changed. I've also played the Wii and think that Nintendo is really doing their fans a disservice and potentially taking a hobby we all enjoy and watering it down. Not to mention the fact that a $250 Wii and 3 additional Wiimotes/nunchuks @ $180 - $430 does not seem like a very good value.
Finally I find it amusing how some of you can call someone else abrasive after you've (no one specific; just your fellow Wiidiots) called them a name.
Cham: I find it amusing you can criticize the PS3 (God knows they've deserved it at times) yet me picking on the Wii (it also deserves some scorn, you know it does:D ) is abrasive and wrong. Seems a bit hypocritical.

In any case, I'm happy that YOU'RE happy Wii-ing it up. Some of you people take this crap way too seriously.:D :p :rolleyes: :) ;) :cool: :eek:

[Spigot]

Ah, Vader, this is the kind of post I wish you'd written about 12 posts earlier.

It's not that we're picking on you for picking on the Wii... It's the way you were doing it. Putting 13 different smiley faces after a juvenile tirade like your previous posts doesn't really off-set it. It just came off as being really angry and bitter.

Calling someone a Wiidiot is one thing. Doing post after post about how the Wii sucks and not really backing up those statements besides saying it sucks even more and people who like it are lobotomized troglodytes who haven't hit puberty (sorry if I'm paraphrasing here) doesn't help what was a somewhat civilized arguement progress very far.

Yeah, I take things seriously because while I love the ribald and often edgy nature of EvAv, what makes it a special site to me is the fact that even with the sometimes insane nature of the conversations, there usually is a civilized conversation going on underneath it. I'm not saying that everyone here is necessarily acting like a white knight in shining armour and being paragons of truth and beauty. However, they didn't spend the majority of the thread calling people names.
I've also played the Wii and think that Nintendo is really doing their fans a disservice and potentially taking a hobby we all enjoy and watering it down. Not to mention the fact that a $250 Wii and 3 additional Wiimotes/nunchuks @ $180 - $430 does not seem like a very good value.
See, now THIS is the kind of statement I like to see. We can have a good discussion about something like this.

HOW is Nintendo watering down a hobby we all enjoy? Back that statement up. I don't agree in the least, but I'm interested to see why you think this.

And I'll pick your price cost apart. You don't NEED 3 extra Wiimotes and Nunchucks. I think one is fine. According to your arguement, shouldn't we factor in extra controller costs for PS3s and 360s? What about the fact that the Wii comes with a pack-in game (which is a load of fun to boot)? Should we also add the cost of one game to the prices of the other next-gen systems to keep the whole equation fair?

Not that I really want to get into that tired arguement. I've seen other people rip it apart too many times already on about 400 other threads here. But I am interested to see your reasoning for saying that the Wii waters down gaming. It actually has some bearing on the topic at hand.

[Vader582]

Ah, Vader, this is the kind of post I wish you'd written about 12 posts earlier.

It's not that we're picking on you for picking on the Wii... It's the way you were doing it. Putting 13 different smiley faces after a juvenile tirade like your previous posts doesn't really off-set it. It just came off as being really angry and bitter.

Calling someone a Wiidiot is one thing. Doing post after post about how the Wii sucks and not really backing up those statements besides saying it sucks even more and people who like it are lobotomized troglodytes who haven't hit puberty (sorry if I'm paraphrasing here) doesn't help what was a somewhat civilized arguement progress very far.

Yeah, I take things seriously because while I love the ribald and often edgy nature of EvAv, what makes it a special site to me is the fact that even with the sometimes insane nature of the conversations, there usually is a civilized conversation going on underneath it. I'm not saying that everyone here is necessarily acting like a white knight in shining armour and being paragons of truth and beauty. However, they didn't spend the majority of the thread calling people names.

See, now THIS is the kind of statement I like to see. We can have a good discussion about something like this.

HOW is Nintendo watering down a hobby we all enjoy? Back that statement up. I don't agree in the least, but I'm interested to see why you think this.

And I'll pick your price cost apart. You don't NEED 3 extra Wiimotes and Nunchucks. I think one is fine. According to your arguement, shouldn't we factor in extra controller costs for PS3s and 360s? What about the fact that the Wii comes with a pack-in game (which is a load of fun to boot)? Should we also add the cost of one game to the prices of the other next-gen systems to keep the whole equation fair?

Not that I really want to get into that tired arguement. I've seen other people rip it apart too many times already on about 400 other threads here. But I am interested to see your reasoning for saying that the Wii waters down gaming. It actually has some bearing on the topic at hand.

Wow...Have you even read any of the posts I've made?! I really don't think you have. Let me give you a recap of the 7 posts I've made in this thread...since you're so high up on that horse there, don't want to trouble you to come down and actually read anything before you write :rolleyes: :

1: Death to the Gamecube 1.1, I mean the Wii.
When we have Granny/Grampie and Susie Soccer Mom playing more than Wii Sports and actaully buying 3 or 4 more games for their Wii...then we can all start to talk about Nintendo doing well, until then easi, get up off your knees and zip Nintendo's fly up...you're whoring yourself...

2: You Nintendo furries better hope you're picking the right horse. Because if you're right, we going to get games like "Salon Cuts" and "Let's Hug It Out" for Nintendo Wii.
Think about who Nintendo is targeting. Verocity's posts just prove it. Games like GoW, MGS etc will go the wayside when developers can make cheap crap games and reap a huge profit. It's similar to several years ago (and somewhat now) when networks made tons of reality shows and gave up/cancelled well-produced TV programs. Reality shows are cheap to produce and the masses flock to them like moths to the flame. Do you want gaming to end up like a second rate reality TV show?!
Turn potential Wii buyers into your local police right away. Help eliminate this problem before it's out of control. Would you like to know more???

3: I find it funny how many Nintendo-philes revert to talking about others "who live in a basement" all the while they are waving their arms around like an 8 year-old girl on Red Bull and coffee beans to move a few pixels. Some of you people are not getting the delicate balance of humor and "terror" that this subject holds.
To whomever mentioned something about Hollywood and all their testosterone filled movies of late. Have you actually seen many that were good? I doubt it. That is the slippery slope gaming is riding.
When things go mainstream, the people at the forefront...the ones who made the subject/item popular get pushed aside. A prefer example is music...someone mentioned punk. We started with the Ramones and the Sex Pistols etc, but today we, after the punk/hard rock has become mainstream, we end up with wanna-bes such as Good Charlotte and the like. Tell me going mainstream is a positive now?

4: Perhaps I've not made myself clear. The PS2 was never marketed towards old people, soccer-moms and the like. So I'm really sorry to burst your snot-nosed brat bubble but the Wii IS being marketed to those groups. Can you really sit there and tell me that there is no potential for that to become a negative?! Don't kid yourself.
BTW, were I a "hipster", as you put it, wouldn't I want/have a Wii? It's the console EVERYONE is busting a nut over...hrm.
RE: Punk music: I used punk only as an example. Not really a huge fan of the genre. The Ramones I like, Sex Pistols not so much.

5: Your idiocy continues to make me smile. You have the gall to criticize the man's gfx card when you bought a GameCube 1.1?!!?! Priceless!
Why don't you quit deep-throating that Wii-mote and join us in reality for a bit. Sounds like it might do you some good.

6: Hey Wiidiot, read before you post. Your fellow Wiidiot, easi, was the one critizing someone else's specs, on their PC nonetheless.

7: Obviously my winks and grins have been wasted here. Most of my gabs were made after someone else threw the first swing. You can't tell me all your cohorts have been acting like perfect respectable human beings. Believe it or not I do have an open mind (I have a DS, tyvm). I was this jaded about the PS3 but then I got my hands on one and that changed. I've also played the Wii and think that Nintendo is really doing their fans a disservice and potentially taking a hobby we all enjoy and watering it down. Not to mention the fact that a $250 Wii and 3 additional Wiimotes/nunchuks @ $180 - $430 does not seem like a very good value.
Finally I find it amusing how some of you can call someone else abrasive after you've (no one specific; just your fellow Wiidiots) called them a name.
Cham: I find it amusing you can criticize the PS3 (God knows they've deserved it at times) yet me picking on the Wii (it also deserves some scorn, you know it does ) is abrasive and wrong. Seems a bit hypocritical.
In any case, I'm happy that YOU'RE happy Wii-ing it up. Some of you people take this crap way too seriously.

Present post:
So obviously you really haven't been paying attention. I never said "dude the wii totally sucks, man!". And I think I have backed up my POV, maybe you disagree but that doesn't make the points any less valid.
We're going to have to agree to disagree. I'm not going to convince you and you're certainly not going to convince me and quite frankly I'm tired/bored with you Nintendo-philes. So your highness and to your fellow Wiidiots, enjoy that Wii. :rolleyes:

PS: people who like it are lobotomized troglodytes who haven't hit puberty = hilarious :D

[Spigot]

Sigh... It's a good thing I'm still at work for another hour or so and have nothing better to do. Anyway, here we go!

Oh, thanks for the paraphrase. Your scintillating wit had me rolling on the floor for hours. Sigh...

I never said "dude the wii totally sucks, man!". Oh come on... Talk about selective semantics. If you'd been saying, "I think the Wii has problems and here they are... blah blah blah." I wouldn't have wasted all this time (well, I might have, but it would have felt constructive).

I did read your previous posts (thanks for the recap though) and you still manage to be extraordinarily hostile in every single one of them.

I'm not saying that you don't have any valid points. It's just very hard to find them in the pile of name-calling and rude gestures you bury them under. It's like trying to debate macroeconomics with a toddler who's throwing a temper-tantrum!

Let me try this one more time. Without fabricating quotes, delving into the history of punk rock or calling me names, can you tell me why it is that you think that the Wii is watering down the hobby?

If you want to complain about games going mainstream, hell, you'd better have some harsh words for EA and their perennial sports franchises. Those are doing more damage to gaming in general than the Wii ever would.

It's like complaining that the DS is bad because it's popular with people who wouldn't play games. I think that having a monstrous installed base is great because it gives devs the option to make gems like Hotel Dusk or Phoenix Wright or Lost In Blue to go along with the more mainstream 'games' like Brain Age or Nintendogs. The PS2 was the same way. Having a zillion consoles out there meant that we got to see things like Mr. Mosquito, Rez, Shadow of the Colossus and Disaster Report... ie. games that you don't see on the other consoles.

Anyway, I'm trying to be polite and nice here (I apologize... I'm Canadian... I can't help it) and I wouldn't mind having a good debate about those points you raise. Just try to be a bit coherent in your rage!

Ah, that helped kill about 20 minutes here at work. Only an hour till I go home. Of course, my coworkers think I'm Uber Nerd for getting into an arguement about games online, but what can ya do?

[Spigot]

Why don't you quit deep-throating that Wii-mote and join us in reality for a bit. Sounds like it might do you some good. Hey! I only did that for the one microgame in Warioware! Don't you judge me!

[Disgustipated]

Man, when you hate the Wii so much that you're willing to write novellas about it, you know you've got a problem.

[mister_slim]

What an awesome thread. I love it when people pour their brain disfunction over everything.