360 for techies

[Vandenh]

Arstechnica starts a new series (http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/xbox360-1.ars/1) exploring the technology behind the 360, the goals of Microsoft and the possible software implications and opportunities for games.
Before we talk in detail about the way that IBM put together the Xenon CPU, we should first discuss Microsoft's vision for the role that Xenon should play in powering the next generation of games. Thus Part I of this series will be devoted to exploring the types of applications for which the Xbox 360 was designed, with a particular emphasis on 3D gaming and the real-time procedural synthesis of in-game geometry.
So it looks like the 360 can produce virtual objects and phenomenons inside the computer. Amazing! ;)

[Orphiuchus]

But can it upgrade my SD videos to HD? Because thats really a deal breaker.

[Atorak]

I heard the PS3 Cell Processor is going to have built-in "checkbook balancing", "mortgage payment deductors", and "anti-terrorist sub-satellite detection", all while you aren't even home!

I'm sold.

PS: The article was a good read. I really do have complete faith in Microsoft. They have more money to throw around then any company on this planet, and you KNOW Bill Gates wants to win this round of the "Console Wars". He hired the right people, asked them to develop the best platform possible, and threw a ton of cash at them. Hell, I'll probably buy both systems, but the more I read about ACTUAL implementations of the XBox 360 vs. the APPARENT implementations of the PS3, the more I feel comfortable dumping my cash into Microsoft this November.

[bapenguin]

Procedural art programming is definitley the way of the future. I can't wait to see what Spore does, and with an entire console that takes advantage of some sort of procedural generation of art assets, it's going to be interesting. Excellent read.

[Atorak]

Does Oblivion take advantage of Procedural Art? I know they dynamically generate their forests based on gathered real-world data, I'm just not sure if it's taking advantage of these specific techniques.

Very cool stuff to look forward to, imagine what they could do with a world like Grand Theft Auto.

[NACIONAL]

incredible read!....

I'm really wanting a Xbox 360... after the E3 show i think that the console is the most "real" in every aspect than the other 2.

[outontheporch]

lame - o

this site is super biased

[DriveALW]

no u are teh bias!!!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

I'm wondering which $300+ console will crap out first, and in what way. Smart money's on the Sony disc-drive falling out of alignment or burning out, but there are so many exiciting new ways that these things will be able to break now! Bad USB ports? Wireless controllers not recognized? Ooh! Imagine if people start writing viruses for them!

Seriously, I expect them both to cut costs on the quality of the hardware every way they can. In two years we will all be *pissed off.*

[Mason]

Phenomena?

[[HATE]MyLife]

Da, da, da da daa. Da da da da.

Phenomena!

[bobbler]

I'll be honest here. While the ideas here are good and solve a lot of the problems coming up, none of them are particularly patent worthy in the process they use, more so in execution (hopefully they only patented the execution so this type of technique is usable outside MS' world). With the increase in cores lately and the difficulty in trying to use all the threads to their full extent, this kind of thing is a great way to eat up CPU time while actually doing something useful. A smart developer could figure this kind of thing out while trying to get the most out of a console and use it on a lot of hardware today (with some fudging, it wouldn't surprise me if it's been used before; you'd be amazed at the kind of crazy stuff that developers did on the ps2 -- or any other console -- to try to get the most out of that confusing hardware), I'm sure the Cell would work pretty well at doing this kind of thing also (their archetecture allows the same kind of thing as the XCPU -- they both had similar ideas, which means they were probably right on a lot of aspects of design, they just differed in a few areas). Good idea regardless.

Good article; Ars is one of my favorite sites. The Cell articles are a good read also, if anyone is interested in those.

[netcraazzy]

Since most traditional PC CPUs have between 512KB and 1MB of L2 cache I'm wondering how much of an impact the Xbox 360's relatively small amount of L2 cache will have on performance. I know that Xenon has 1MB L2 cache but now it's being shared between 3 cores, not to mention the fact that the programmer can also set aside some of that L2 cache for read or write streaming thus making the amount available for more general purposes even smaller.

[Kelegacy]

Good article; Ars is one of my favorite sites. The Cell articles are a good read also, if anyone is interested in those.

Are you crazy? No one wants to read those Cell articles. They might make certain people feel stupid. Procedural Art Programming rocks, Cell SuXorz.

Microsoft can say something like "We are implementing a "Phase-Conduit Real-time Art Entropy Fabricator" and half the people here would line up and applaud Microsoft's engineering. But if Kaz or Ken from Sony say they have a "Multisteeping Cross-Hybrid Conditional Matrix" people would jump around saying how silly and bullshit that is.

I just find it hilarous, that's all. I was kidding about the Cell articles BTW. I was just being sarcastic to prove a point.

[bapenguin]

Are you crazy? No one wants to read those Cell articles. They might make certain people feel stupid. Procedural Art Programming rocks, Cell SuXorz.

Microsoft can say something like "We are implementing a "Phase-Conduit Real-time Art Entropy Fabricator" and half the people here would line up and applaud Microsoft's engineering. But if Kaz or Ken from Sony say they have a "Multisteeping Cross-Hybrid Conditional Matrix" people would jump around saying how silly and bullshit that is.

I just find it hilarous, that's all. I was kidding about the Cell articles BTW. I was just being sarcastic to prove a point.

Actually the Cell articles were posted here back in Feb when they came out.

I agree with whoever said this stuff isn't patent worthy, the entire patent process is severly flawed. Some of the patents people get are ridiculous.

[Stryfe01]

But can it upgrade my SD videos to HD? Because thats really a deal breaker.

How is that a deal breaker ? u'll need to upload a ripped dvd to the "cell online" place. it will reencode then you'll either stream or download the HD version. Where in the world does the average user have the money to pay for that kind of bandwidth ???

[baz]

How is that a deal breaker ? u'll need to upload a ripped dvd to the "cell online" place. it will reencode then you'll either stream or download the HD version. Where in the world does the average user have the money to pay for that kind of bandwidth ???

someone needs to readjust their sarcasm meter...

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

But can it upgrade my SD videos to HD? Because thats really a deal breaker.

Well, MS has already said (http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1817025,00.asp) it "probably" won't perform upconversion for standard definition DVDs. Which is a bit of a shame (it's not as if it would particularly tax the hardware or anything), but it's something that could theoretically be added via a software upgrade -- you can do upconversion on a modded Xbox with the proper software, although I hear it doesn't work all that well. From what I understand the studios don't like upconversion, since they think it's an easy way to pirate HD (or rather "pseudo-HD") content, so that may be why MS didn't bother including it in the Xbox or the 360.

[Furious Wang]

I just find it hilarous, that's all. I was kidding about the Cell articles BTW. I was just being sarcastic to prove a point.

I find you hilarious.

And I'm not being sarcastic.

[Furious Wang]

Just to be clear. Upscaling to HD and converting to HD are two completely different things.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

Yeah, but what's the difference between upscaling and upconverting? I've seen the two terms used interchangably (I've also seen some people use "uprezzing") even by people who are traditionally pretty precise about these things (i.e. home theater freaks) so it confuses me a bit.

[WileE.Coyte]

Are you crazy? No one wants to read those Cell articles. They might make certain people feel stupid. Procedural Art Programming rocks, Cell SuXorz.

Microsoft can say something like "We are implementing a "Phase-Conduit Real-time Art Entropy Fabricator" and half the people here would line up and applaud Microsoft's engineering. But if Kaz or Ken from Sony say they have a "Multisteeping Cross-Hybrid Conditional Matrix" people would jump around saying how silly and bullshit that is.

I just find it hilarous, that's all. I was kidding about the Cell articles BTW. I was just being sarcastic to prove a point.

This is why though, I found this while cleaning my basement today.

qoute EGM Jan 1999,

" The 10,500,000 transistor, 250 MHZ DSP will combine 14 accumulators for floating point calculations that will help in math processing of rich 3D graphics. Another rumor has suggested that Sony's PS2 will use a more advanced form of 3D graphics called NURBS (or Non-Uniform Rational B-spline),thus evolving the look of computer graphics to TOY STORY-ESQUE proportions. "

It also goes on about how the PS2 can do real time damage that's not even possible on the XBOX, but I'm too lazy to write it all out. The point is, I feel people are justified to question Sony, because we've been there done that. The Cell is kind of sounding like it's 1999 all over again. You can't blame people for their BS meter going off.

[Dracula-X]

"The 10,500,000 transistor, 250 MHZ DSP will combine 14 accumulators for floating point calculations that will help in math processing of rich 3D graphics. Another rumor has suggested that Sony's PS2 will use a more advanced form of 3D graphics called NURBS (or Non-Uniform Rational B-spline),thus evolving the look of computer graphics to TOY STORY-ESQUE proportions."

It also goes on about how the PS2 can do real time damage that's not even possible on the XBOX, but I'm too lazy to write it all out. The point is, I feel people are justified to question Sony, because we've been there done that. The Cell is kind of sounding like it's 1999 all over again. You can't blame people for their BS meter going off.That's not terribly unlike Bill Gate's quote about Xbox: "We're approaching the level of detail seen in Toy Story 2." (http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,40970,00.html?tw=wn_story_related) How truly fascinating it is that nobody gives Microsoft any shit about such a lofty claim, but when it's Sony - they're satanic liars...