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Liquidize105
01-16-2007, 02:33 PM
StarCraft is a name that is synonymous with excellence, quality, a "good game," best RTS ever made, the standard with which other hopefuls are measured - take your pick of the blanket words. They all say the same thing.

That is, StarCraft made the seemly impossible, possible. A whole expansion pack, two beta tests, and a series of patches were devoted to balancing out the three sides. Consequently it's the closest thing to a perfectly balanced real-time strategy game. StarCraft is 99% balanced.

But that's not its only accomplishment. It is one of the first, and the best example of a game driven by an enjoyable storyline as well as a cast of compelling personalities. The game tells a human interest story - a story of love, betrayal, loyalty, perseverance, even self-sacrifice. The range of emotional spectrum is uncharacteristically broad for a RTS game then, and of any games released today.

The third and the final ingredient to StarCraft's breakaway success is the prepackaged commercial-grade map editor: StarEdit. Oh the ease with which to completely redefine the baseline gameplay! Imagine playing real chess in StarCraft. Chess! The longevity of SC (going 9 years now) is entirely through the use of StarEdit. On the singleplayer side, story-based campaigns many times Blizzard's better (I do not exaggerate) were being released at a steady pace. This "custom campaign" community is where I hail from. Regrettably, Blizzard as a company never officially embraced the work of the community. In fact, Blizzard frowned upon the community's use of the word "campaign" to address a series of "interlinked singleplayer missions." Anyway, that's a story for another time.

Getting to the subject, I re-discovered a nice surprise recently. It's something that I made long ago for my personal enjoyment. I still remember when Deception (http://battle.net/scc/OS/motm2000.shtml) was released back in 2000 as one of Blizzard's "Map of the Month". I loved the crisp trigger work, innovative use of in-game effects, and the custom scoring system. It's the only singleplayer mission to emphasize stealth above all else. The featured story is completely self-contained and canonical. Since then I've enhanced the map in the one area that was lacking: atmosphere. It now boasts a mini soundtrack of its own.

I present to you my tribute to a phenomenal game - Deception: Special Edition (http://evilavatar.com/downloads/sc-tribute.zip) (StarCraft and BroodWar required). Try it today! I hope you'll enjoy it as much as I did so many years ago.

-Liquidize105
Happy New Year Face (@ ^^ @)

Deception:SE Download (http://evilavatar.com/downloads/sc-tribute.zip)
Deception:SE Mirror (http://files.filefront.com//;6545606;;/)
StarCraft Chess Download (http://evilavatar.com/downloads/sc-chess.zip) for the curious!

alleycatsphinx
01-16-2007, 03:00 PM
What's a commercial grade map editor? Is that like 3dstudio, which crashes consistently whenever I close it? (and inconsistently at random intervals)

;) Cool deal dude, SC is epic (and still installed). I'll check this out when I get home.

Liquidize105
01-16-2007, 03:03 PM
An editor you can use to make maps that are commercial grade. Before StarCraft, WarCraft 2 only had a terrain editor.

BlackPete
01-16-2007, 03:27 PM
Another Starcraft accomplishment that I admired was that they managed to make it balanced using three completely different races.

WC2 was an excellent game, although it's been criticized for keeping the Orcs and Humans too much the same. In Starcraft, each race had its own distinctive flavour.

Since then, very few games has been able to accomplish the same feat.

Captain Awesome
01-16-2007, 03:33 PM
Another Starcraft accomplishment that I admired was that they managed to make it balanced using three completely different races.

WC2 was an excellent game, although it's been criticized for keeping the Orcs and Humans too much the same. In Starcraft, each race had its own distinctive flavour.

Since then, very few games has been able to accomplish the same feat.

Didn't it also take Blizzard years after its release to get it to its current balanced state? While I love SC. It takes Blizzard quite a long while to seat their own games in terms of balancing.

Phanto
01-16-2007, 03:38 PM
Didn't it also take Blizzard years after its release to get it to its current balanced state? While I love SC. It takes Blizzard quite a long while to seat their own games in terms of balancing.

Thats true for every single franchise they have released.

BlackPete
01-16-2007, 03:40 PM
Didn't it also take Blizzard years after its release to get it to its current balanced state? While I love SC. It takes Blizzard quite a long while to seat their own games in terms of balancing.

It came pretty close to being balanced at the time it shipped, so there were no obvious exploits. It wasn't until people started crunching numbers before "flaws" and weak spots showed themselves that balance issues really started cropping up.

It was still good enough that you could win with any race vs any race as far as me and my friends were concerned.

BlackPete
01-16-2007, 03:42 PM
Thats true for every single franchise they have released.

What franchises have they released since SC? :D

Echani
01-16-2007, 03:44 PM
On the singleplayer side, story-based campaigns many times Blizzard's better (I do not exaggerate) were being released at a steady pace. This "custom campaign" community is where I hail from. Regrettably, Blizzard as a company never officially embraced the work of the community. In fact, Blizzard frowned upon the community's use of the word "campaign" to address a series of "interlinked singleplayer missions." Anyway, that's a story for another time.

Any particular recommendations on the SP custom campaigns? I have Starcraft installed on either my laptop or main rig most of the time, and it'd be nice to try something new on the single-player side of things.

Skyelan
01-16-2007, 03:46 PM
Hey, looks like I picked a good time to finally get my head out of the sand and buy StarCraft. Battle Chest for only 20 bucks is the best 20 bucks I've ever spent. :D

Crono
01-16-2007, 04:05 PM
Any particular recommendations on the SP custom campaigns? I have Starcraft installed on either my laptop or main rig most of the time, and it'd be nice to try something new on the single-player side of things.

OMG YES!!

Ok, first off, visit campaign creations (http://www.campaigncreations.org/). They have some of the best custom campaigns ever. They went so far as to have their own cinematics done (which are impressive in quality for indy projects).

I would recommend starting with Legacy of the Confederation (http://www.campaigncreations.org/index.php?topic=72.0) . This campaign has everything. From compelling story, memorable characters, custom sound(s) and musical scores, custom graphics, sophisticated triggers (sophisticated for the way StarEdit map editor was setup) and great level designs. You will thank me after playing through it. Definitely worth it.

((It appears that LotC (http://www.campaigncreations.org/index.php?topic=72.0) uses Brood War version 1.07. To get it, use this link for v1.07 of Brood War (http://games.softpedia.com/get/Patch/Starcraft-Brood-War-107-Patch.shtml). Then uninstall your game, re-install it, and apply the 1.07 patch before playing the campaign.))

After that, choose at your own discretion. Most of the campaigns seem to be missing from years past. I was also going to recommend Reclamation of Auir, but it is one of the missing campaigns. If you can find it though, I would play through it. Its author is Sharandar.

Enjoy!

Mav
01-16-2007, 05:18 PM
What franchises have they released since SC? :D

IIRC Diablo 1 came out shortly before SC. And I know for a fact Diablo 2 came out in 2000, with it's expansion LoD coming out in 2001. So not technically a new franchise they did add on to existing franchises after SC and BW were released.

TheHulk
01-16-2007, 05:29 PM
This is something I haven't played in awhile. Need to break it out again soon.

Liquidize105
01-16-2007, 05:41 PM
Any particular recommendations on the SP custom campaigns? I have Starcraft installed on either my laptop or main rig most of the time, and it'd be nice to try something new on the single-player side of things.
I plan to do another post with some recommendations. If you really can't wait, I'd say give LotC's Fall Angel and The Gallantry a try.

Campaign Creations hasn't been itself in the past 3-4 years after Desler turned over admin duties. These days it's simply a repository.

ElPresidente
01-16-2007, 05:54 PM
Am I the only person who does not feel the Starcraft love as others do.

Sure... it was a very good RTS and perhaps one of the most polished examples of the form as most people know it. It was also horribly derivative; from it's Warhammer 40k inspired visuals to its resource management.

Don't get me wrong, it is an exceptional game but there are plenty of RTS games that trounce it for enjoyment and innovation.

Then again as my mag's supposed 'strategy guy' I spend a lot of time playing RTS games and it is entirely likely that I've played so many traditional RTS games that even the most polished examples of their kind leave me cold.

I am prepared to admit that. :P

cp#
01-16-2007, 06:04 PM
I'm sorry El Presidente but I'm going to have to kill you

jeffbax
01-16-2007, 06:08 PM
Didn't it also take Blizzard years after its release to get it to its current balanced state? While I love SC. It takes Blizzard quite a long while to seat their own games in terms of balancing.
I don't think thats entirely accurate. I think the game is generally very balanced since I've first played it... the tweaks I've never noticed personally. I think the important thing, is that Blizzard is still releasing updates 9 years later :)

ElPresidente
01-16-2007, 06:29 PM
Agreed. The game shipped extremely balanced as far as your average player goes and was praised for its efforts in this area upon release.

It was only those players who became exceptionally good at the game who started to notice slight advantages and it was for these (usually competition players) people the patches balanced things out.

I'm sorry El Presidente but I'm going to have to kill you

Damn. :(

Zeal
01-16-2007, 06:32 PM
Yeah, that's right. Get ready for Starcraft 2, biatches.

A storm's comin'.

Lint of Death
01-16-2007, 06:33 PM
Oddly enough, today I just played Total Annihilation (complete with UTASP) for the first time in a long while.

StarCraft rarely sat well with me. To be more accurate, it bored me often. Several of my friends are/were/secretly still are enthusiastic about it, though.

It can be really fun, though. I was playing with a friend -- he attacked me with a full fleet of carriers. They didn't stand a chance against my defense consisting of 200 marines. I was too incompetent to bring the fight to him, but every attack of his failed (even though I would consider him a very good player - dumb luck on my part?). It was only over when he mind-controlled my (basically obliterated other friend)'s SCV, built up a Terran base of his own, and nuked every last one of my poor marines. They all died at once. Ow :(

The only times I really enjoyed the game (campaign aside, I guess) were when I either rushed with blinding speed, or zoning out (OK, it wasn't exactly a ball) while filling my own base with missile turrets and 200 marines.

The ridiculous unit variety, physics-based projectiles, and relentless potential for destruction are probably why I prefer Total Annihilation. Not to mention the premise is so simple that I love it; and all of this will be back for Supreme Commander!

...please don't kill me.

ElPresidente
01-16-2007, 06:34 PM
TA and RA2 were much more 'fun' games in my books. Don't worry Lint... they've gotta kill me first before they get to you. :D

Freak705
01-16-2007, 06:50 PM
Oddly enough, today I just played Total Annihilation (complete with UTASP) for the first time in a long while.

StarCraft rarely sat well with me. To be more accurate, it bored me often. Several of my friends are/were/secretly still are enthusiastic about it, though.

It can be really fun, though. I was playing with a friend -- he attacked me with a full fleet of carriers. They didn't stand a chance against my defense consisting of 200 marines. I was too incompetent to bring the fight to him, but every attack of his failed (even though I would consider him a very good player - dumb luck on my part?). It was only over when he mind-controlled my (basically obliterated other friend)'s SCV, built up a Terran base of his own, and nuked every last one of my poor marines. They all died at once. Ow :(

The only times I really enjoyed the game (campaign aside, I guess) were when I either rushed with blinding speed, or zoning out (OK, it wasn't exactly a ball) while filling my own base with missile turrets and 200 marines.

The ridiculous unit variety, physics-based projectiles, and relentless potential for destruction are probably why I prefer Total Annihilation. Not to mention the premise is so simple that I love it; and all of this will be back for Supreme Commander!

...please don't kill me.
Hold on. Did you use 'Carrier Fleet' and 'good player' in the same sentence? Ohhhh... the n00bness.

Crono
01-16-2007, 07:55 PM
Did you also say you had 200 marines? Meaning you had no SCVs... or anything else for that matter?

Doctor Setebos
01-16-2007, 08:07 PM
Well, crap! I was going to give my copy of SC (and SC:BW) to fitbabits since he admitted to never having played the game. But NOW?!

Sorry, bootsy -- you'll have to scour the bargain bins now. :D

Thanks, Liquidize!!!

Lint of Death
01-16-2007, 08:58 PM
Hold on. Did you use 'Carrier Fleet' and 'good player' in the same sentence? Ohhhh... the n00bness.

To be fair, I think there were arbiters and some other nasty things mixed in as well, and that was only the last stand in the game; memory has a tendency to rewrite history. I just remember the numerous carriers rapidly rendered useless as their near-infinite swarm of little bastards became a cloud of dust and plasma. My endgame tended to not vary overmuch between games (can you tell?), but I don't think he was expecting so many bloody meatbags.

And yes, it is quite possible that I sacrificed my SCVs so I could have 200 marines (it was probably Big Game Hunter$$$$$, so resources weren't a big issue). I wouldn't put it past me. Seeing my sea of soldiers splatter and scream their searing suffering was sincerely satisfying, considering I surely seemed screwed. What sinister sadism.

Ugh. Did I just write that?

OrangePulp
01-16-2007, 10:53 PM
Am I the only person who does not feel the Starcraft love as others do.

Sure... it was a very good RTS and perhaps one of the most polished examples of the form as most people know it. It was also horribly derivative; from it's Warhammer 40k inspired visuals to its resource management.

Don't get me wrong, it is an exceptional game but there are plenty of RTS games that trounce it for enjoyment and innovation.

Then again as my mag's supposed 'strategy guy' I spend a lot of time playing RTS games and it is entirely likely that I've played so many traditional RTS games that even the most polished examples of their kind leave me cold.

I am prepared to admit that. :P
Some people just have different preferences when it comes to what 'flavor' of RTS they like (IE: CnC, Blizzard, etc). And I think there are a lot of people (like me) who were raised on Blizzard RTS.

As far as it being trounced in enjoyment and innovation, well, enjoyment is purely subjective. But innovation, well... Admittedly, it's mostly a perfected version of Warcraft 2 in the case of basic mechanics (as opposed to something like Warcraft 3, which started to try to do something different in heroes (although it ended up being much more pure RTS than they originally planned; anyone else remember "role-playing strategy"?)), but the whole three races thing, and the distinctly different style of each race (especially zerg), I think that was pretty new.

And in the end, I think I prefer focus on execution, rather than innovation, in games. Even a normally drab game that is implemented very well can be excellent, whereas an innovative game can never the less be very boring/frustrating to play.

And if you aren't already aware, there's a total converstion (http://www.wc3campaigns.net/revolution/) for Warcraft 3, aimed at bringing Starcraft into the third dimension. It's going to be completely true to the original game's mechanics, and even use the old sounds and such. It should be a real treat when it releases, whenever that may be.

Qoz
01-17-2007, 12:15 AM
The longevity of SC (going 9 years now) is entirely through the use of StarEdit Uhm?! No. It was due to the excellent game and perfect multiplayer balance (plus the perfect expansion). It was because of competitive gaming that Starcraft kept selling - and they kept the interest via patches.

Whimbrel
01-17-2007, 08:08 AM
I understand that many people really loved Starcraft, however, I doi not think any of these people had really played Total Annihilation first. And, for the record, I think TA was the best RTS game. TA introduced so many new features that playing Starcraft was like taking a time machine. Starcraft players should spend a day playing Warcraft 1 to experience the same phenomenon of going from TA to SC. The graphics, unit customizability, command and build queueing, boneyards, the downloadable units, scale, simultaneous air, land, and sea battles, epic multiplayer!

SC was a well done game. I am not trying to imply that it was a poor quality game or that its creator's were inept. I am not saying that the game was not fun. But to be superior to TA, it would have needed to include all of those features that made TA so great, and add the depth touches of story, personality, balance, and character that make Blizzard games so damn satisfying.

Liquidize105
01-17-2007, 03:27 PM
Uhm?! No. It was due to the excellent game and perfect multiplayer balance (plus the perfect expansion). It was because of competitive gaming that Starcraft kept selling - and they kept the interest via patches.

You're not looking at this thoroughly enough. Professional StarCraft runs through StarEdit via the professional maps. Moreover Pro SC also survives on the personality of the progamers, and South Koreans generally play in cafes.

Scenario games these days are played as often (or more even) as melee.

I understand that many people really loved Starcraft, however, I doi not think any of these people had really played Total Annihilation first. And, for the record, I think TA was the best RTS game. TA introduced so many new features that playing Starcraft was like taking a time machine. Starcraft players should spend a day playing Warcraft 1 to experience the same phenomenon of going from TA to SC. The graphics, unit customizability, command and build queueing, boneyards, the downloadable units, scale, simultaneous air, land, and sea battles, epic multiplayer!

SC was a well done game. I am not trying to imply that it was a poor quality game or that its creator's were inept. I am not saying that the game was not fun. But to be superior to TA, it would have needed to include all of those features that made TA so great, and add the depth touches of story, personality, balance, and character that make Blizzard games so damn satisfying.

"Best" is just a word, my friend. I can just as easily say that in order for TA to be even considered on par with SC it'd have to have an engaging story with characters you can relate to, totally unique and balanced factions, a utility allowing the community to continously refresh the stock gameplay- in essense, all the glowing qualities of SC.

I don't think that a debate over which game is quote unquote the best is necessary. In fact, I never personally called it "the best RTS." Paying tribute to one game doesn't take away from another.

The one thing no opinion can take away from SC though is that it's the one and only RTS still being active played after 9 years. It hasn't aged terribly either.

Crono
01-17-2007, 04:00 PM
Not to go off-topic, but has StarCraft (Brood War) sold more copies of its game on than all of the Command and Conquer games (including expansion, the games on N64, and Playstation 1.... and Renegade {which was fucking awesome for its time <3}) combined? Does anyone know? I think its safe to assume so, but there are a LOT of Command and Conquer games out there and tons of expansion packs. Simply curious.

I think, should this become an opinion driven argument, that StarCraft is my personal favorite above its timely competitors because StarCraft had fluid controls, good pacing, fun maps (before everyone started playing BGH), tons of players, and integrated multiplayer interface. The multiplayer interface was easy to use, didn't require the user to directly connect to anyone, and was free. This was all during the dial-up era. For a game to be played online for free with a system like Battle.net (originally released for Diablo), with the depth of StarCraft, it is almost a no-brainer that it would succeed based almost entirely on that!

StarCraft had so many memorable moments for me. I still remember the first game I played on Battle.net. It was on New Gettysburg, I was in the South-East section, it was 4v4 with pre-defined teams. I was Terran. Two of my three allies spawned near me by luck's sake. We pincered our nearest enemy and eliminated him.

Naturally, I brought the artillery.

Zealots, Marines and Dragoons stormed the the front as I deployed my siege tanks. It was magnificent to watch as hordes of the Zerg were wiped out; zerglings popped like swollen zits, buildings burst like an infected appendix. It was spectacular.

I was hooked immediately.

The longer I played, the more strategic possibilities I discovered. The combination of units for a single race and ways to use them was impressive; coupled with teammates, the possibility for strategies grew to nearly infinite. The maps were fun until everyone started playing solely BGH and $$$ maps. LT was always fun because it forced you to expand.

In the pre-BGH era, the game was much more fun and full of more possibilities. This is because the maps would force you to relocate, and force you to island hop and fight for resources, unlike the players who play today, where turtling is viable, and expanding is hardly an option.

As you may have noticed (if anyone is even reading this anymore) I could talk about StarCraft for hours on end. I could play it even longer. But I digress. The game is the best in my opinion because it gave me more memories than any other RTS (or game for that matter) for its time. It will forever hold a spot as one of the top games of all time to me simply because of that alone. It is not always "which game is the best?" Sometimes it is "Which game is most memorable?"

Nate Graves
01-18-2007, 10:22 AM
Well, crap! I was going to give my copy of SC (and SC:BW) to fitbabits since he admitted to never having played the game. But NOW?!

Sorry, bootsy -- you'll have to scour the bargain bins now. :D

Thanks, Liquidize!!!

"scour" isn't really the right word here...you can still find the 'battle chest' of the original and brood war for like $20, and there are a million copies of it on amazon/ebay...I doubt it would be difficult to find new copies for cheap.

The game is definitely dated by now...but still a great piece of work.

I require more vespene gas.