City of Villains preview

[Ventura_DK]

Boomtown has posted a preview (http://pc.boomtown.net/en_uk/articles/art.view.php?id=8298) of City of Villains; the upcoming, stand-a-lone, City of Heroes expansion. The preview explores general gameplay, zones, costumes, base building + raiding and includes interview bites with Lord Recluse (aka. David "Zeb" Cook) about his game.

http://i.boomtown.net/pics/4/8/2/77284/184x69.jpg (http://pc.boomtown.net/en_uk/articles/art.view.php?id=8298)

”Only punks beat old ladies up in the streets. You’re a supervillain, you only deal with the big stuff.”

[Savok]

Boomtown, haha, that's a zone north of Steel Canyon. I'll read it tomorrow, when I wake up

[GrinR]

I loved CoH until I got dominated by the mid-level grinding. It's too much of a time investment for me to play... CoV looks to be no different.

[Heretic Machine]

I agree with GrinR, and add that PVP is horribly unbalanced right now, and I really don't see much of a way for them to fix it for CoV. That alone renders CoV worthless...

[Mason]

Pretty true GrinR. Some of the upper-level archvillain stuff is kind of cool, but the grind is just far too long.

And the PvP is horrible. I think they need to start over and give every archetype PvP-specific powers or something, because the current way it is handled is pathetic. From the bit I've played, it seems that slows and defense debuffs dominate. Half the archetypes are worthless.

And what's up with villains fighting criminals? Not picking on civilians is sensible, but security forces and low-level NPC heroes would seem like far more interesting targets than street thugs. And various mercenary/vigilante factions, like Crey, would make sense as well. But nobody will buy this if a villain is just a hero in a different costume, named "Dreadlord Bloodravendeath" or something.

[MosBen]

Yeah, I got to level 23 or something and it just got to be a job to progress. I still play every once in a while and have a good time, but it's hard to find people to play with.

[GrinR]

It's really odd to me that WoW is the only game I've played where it gets more fun (read: less of a grind) as you get to the higher levels. Most of the MOGs I've played (and certainly CoH is a great example) have the most fun during the early levels and then ultimately wind up being a brutal grind. AO, EQ, CoH, AC, Lineage - all of them are fun for the first 10 levels or so, then drop in fun.

In WoW, when I start an alt it's levels 1-10 that are the most boring! *shrug*

[A-Team]

I'm not trying to drive the discussion off topic, but how steep of a treadmill is too steep for you all? The last time I played CoH was toward the end of beta, but the time taken to level didn't feel any worse than DAoC and definitely no where close to FFXI.

As far as CoV, I've had my eye on it for awhile because I figured a number of people still on the fence will pick it up and it'll give me an opportunity to grow along with the game. I've always been afraid of joining an MMO too "late" in fear of there being a lack of people to level.

[Rakael]

I think almost any treadmill is too much for me, or so it seems. I have now played quite a few MMO's, and left every one during the mid-level grind. I already have a job, I don't need a "game" thats just another job.

[MosBen]

CoH is my first MMORPG and basically I want to feel like I'm going to level at least once every couple of hours so that I level at least once per time I play. I want to feel like I'm progressing and getting more powerful all the time. I don't want to feel like I logged in and dropped a couple hours and didn't accomplish anything substantial.

Now, I guess I should say that I still like the gameplay of CoH, I just have trouble finding good people to play with.

[GrinR]

I think Rakael basically has the same view as I do. I want to log in for a couple of hours and feel like I've progressed somehow when I log out. WoW succeeds for me because in 2 hours I can always do at least one of the following:

- get a new cool item
- raise my tradeskill
- discover a new area
- complete at least one quest
- make a noticable amount of money

The same cannot be said of any other MOG I've played.

[Rakael]

Actually WoW was the only MMO I didn't leave because of the grind. I left it due to loosing two 22+ lvl characters with no GM support. I will admit that it was pretty fun while I played it though and I rarely felt any "grind".

[Wolfgang]

I think Rakael basically has the same view as I do. I want to log in for a couple of hours and feel like I've progressed somehow when I log out. WoW succeeds for me because in 2 hours I can always do at least one of the following:

- get a new cool item
- raise my tradeskill
- discover a new area
- complete at least one quest
- make a noticable amount of money

The same cannot be said of any other MOG I've played.
- complete at least one quest

CoH had the quickest quests known to man. They were almost all instances. No waiting for 1 boss to spawn, etc.. Plus you could get amazingly fast travel powers which you can't in WoW. I currently play WoW and cancelled my CoH account, but the complete 1 quest in 2hrs was always possible in CoH.

[Rommel]

CoH features the best role-playing of any title in the genre. Creating your own costume and background from scracth in such a fun setting basically ingrained everyone into the world like no other. The problem was the balance (Scrappers were one-man armies, defenders could do nothing on their own) and the depth (No items or crafting). If they fix those two issues, I'm going back!

[Talanvor]

Huh, I always found the low levels to be the boring ones. You have hardly any powers and you're fighting the easy stuff. After my first level 50 character I tried to roll another one up, but felt like the new character was completely useless. Had to let it like dormant for awhile before it felt like less of a chore.

I think the reason PvP in CoH is unbalanced is they didn't really plan out the powers to be used against each other. From my experience my Scrapper is a killing machine, unless he runs into a Controller with Fear powers. Now my Blaster, pfft. Might as well just paint a target on him.

That's one thing that's irked me about CoH, no loot. I'd be perfectly happy not having to camp for a good drop, but once you ding 50 the only thing to do really is just finish storyarcs you might be interested in, or Hamidon raids for special enhancements. I remember hearing awhile back about.. I think they were called aspects or specializations? Anyway, basic idea was you could have some type of "skill" that would be useful on missions and TFs. One of them IIRC was the ability to easily spot the blinkies, which seems kind of funny considering how easy they are to find now. (;

Anyway, about CoV. You fight the thugs in the street? WTF? I can see the occassional villian doing the "I'm doing heroic thing to lull the fools into my clutches", but every goddamn one? C'mon Cryptic, you can do better.

[Savok]

WoW was fantastic with hiding the grind. Sadly, it couldn't hide that the devs are a pack of fucking assholes and thus it all fell apart for me.

If you expect to lvl every time you play then MMOGs are not for you, simple as that.

[Savok]

As for the preview, it looks really nice, hopefully PvP works by then.

And remember, the supervillians aren't saving the old lady, they're removing creatures so pitiful they're offended by their very existence. It's a sith mentality.

[MosBen]

Savok, I know I said that I wanted to be leveling every time I play, but that's not what I really meant. I just meant that I'm at a point in CoH where I feel like I log in and play for a couple hours and accomplish nothing. Sure, I may beat some fetch/destroy quest, and I may get a nub or two towards a ding, but that's hardly a satisfying prize for an evening of gaming. I want to feel like I'm progressing every time I play and I don't think it's a crazy wacky idea either. Yeah, some people just love MMORPGs the way they are, but that doesn't mean that that's the way they have to be, and I think they can be better.

[Heretic Machine]

I honestly think MMO's would be better if you did level every few hours. All they would have to do is stop making the games with only 50 levels, bump it up to about 200 and the game still has plenty of lasting power. You still feel like you are making progress and having fun.

[MosBen]

Of course, that would require a lot more work out of the developers because they'd have to make more areas for the high level characters to play. If every level actually results in more power to the character, which is sort of what we're talking about with the idea of getting a sense of accomplishment, then it's not going to make much sense to have lvl 200s running around in the same areas as lvl 50s, and the same is true of lvl 50s vs lvl 20s, so the game needs to be bigger in order to accomodate our broader spectrum of power.

I would like to be leveling every few hours because I think it's the easiest and most obvious way to make the player feel like they're accomplishing something all the time, but I think it will actually take some clever developer to figure out some other, less costly and labor intensive, way to make players feel like their time in the world matters, and is fun, every time they play.

[mindstrike]

Well, I know this is more of a action game.. but they might have to include some sort of secondary grinding... I hate to say Crafting.. but if you can get thugs to drop certain items, you can make your own Nades, Guns, "Special Ring of Flame"

I am too worried PvP might be a bit unbalanced for a while.. but for now, it is a simplie game I can play with my Bro.

[Blue]

I would like to be leveling every few hours because I think it's the easiest and most obvious way to make the player feel like they're accomplishing something all the time, but I think it will actually take some clever developer to figure out some other, less costly and labor intensive, way to make players feel like their time in the world matters, and is fun, every time they play.

I think I may be a rarity in this and it could be that I was originally used to the FF XI grind, but even though I don't level every time I play (or even every three times I play), I still feel as though I'm progressing. It's still ultimately satisfying for me to see that I have 15 blocks left to, say, 48, and then when I'm finished for the night I'm at 10. And, I really enjoy WoW's list of things to do because I always feel as though I have options to select from during my time within the game. I don't simply have to level grind, I can work on a profession, run a raid, hit some missions (which, yes, ultimately are masked grinds) - you get the idea. Regardless of whether or not I've "dinged" when I leave my computer seems somewhat irrelevant because I actually wouldn't feel any sense of accomplishment if it was too easy to level. When I start getting into the 50's, I want some sense that I'm actually being pushed and that I have to use the skills I've acquired during my time with a given MMO in order to progress. If the game was a continuous level fest, my sense of accomplishment would dwindle significantly.

For instance: I just recently rented the Episode 3 game and beat it in less than five hours. Sure I beat it but if I can beat it in five hours on Hard, there's little feeling of "Hey, check out what I did." I want to feel as though I've earned that next level. I already think WoW is kind of easy when it comes to the MMO genre as I see a load of 60's running around (a friend hit 60 in a month and a half) and less in-between levels.

[Savok]

I don't think many of you know about CoH's "Super Secret Non-Combat System". Those universities aren't under construction for nothing.

[Rommel]

I don't think many of you know about CoH's "Super Secret Non-Combat System". Those universities aren't under construction for nothing.

Oh? Please tell us about them then

[MosBen]

Blue, it just strikes me as somehow wrong for the method of "earning" levels to be so intimitely tied to the ammount of hours you grind into the game and therefore the ammount of monthly dues. I know, I know, I may be missing a fundamental aspect of MMORPGs, I just feel like there should be a way for a casual player of online games such as myself to actually play a game online without feeling like I'm just throwing time away into a deep time sucking pit.

[Heretic Machine]

I don't think many of you know about CoH's "Super Secret Non-Combat System". Those universities aren't under construction for nothing.

I don't think you know how lame it's going to be. It will add -nothing- to fun factor or taking away from the grind...

[Captain Alaska]

All MMORPGs seem to have this grinding. It really is just a part of it. Any time you want to progress any RPG character, it is just a matter of working for it. Thus said, I really try not to think of it as grinding, or even care that I may only be level 30, and not level 50. I just try to have fun with it. For me, the fun of CoH's is going into a mission with a team and simply trying to survive.

The game has always seemed much more fast paced and exciting than other MOGs, and when I do level, it is usually somewhat of a suprise/bonus, because I am not playing to hit 50, I am playing for the fun of grouping and kicking ass. Of course, anyone who regularly groups can tell you, it can be hit or miss....most groups can be just horrible...but those that are great, where the conversation is good, the teamwork is all there, and people seem to actually care...man. That is why I play the game.

Of course, I do somewhat lie...I power leveled the spandex off my superhero until he could fly.

[Savok]

I don't think you know how lame it's going to be. It will add -nothing- to fun factor or taking away from the grind...

You know exactly how it works then do you? Fantastic, please inform us all.

[Steele Johnson]

no no... mmorpg's need to evolve in such a way that leveling is an after-thought. Think of other genres. Do you have fun playing FPS's? How about adventure games? All genres have some sort of fun-factor that keeps you playing. If all that keeps you playing in an mmorpg is getting to the next level, then something is seriously wrong. If you quit the game because you're feeling a "grind", then the fun-factor is diminishing the longer you play. That is a serious design flaw. The reason gamers keep playing other games of different genres that were designed well, is because there's more reason to keep playing than finding the next item or getting the next power. It could be a deep story that keeps you guessing, or a great combat system that's entertaining, or cooperative gameplay that requires strategic skills from all players, or more importantly, becoming part of the game world.

IMO, mmorpg's haven't evolved enough, and they're one of the only genres that have the potential to go anywhere. When you think about it, you've got thousands of players on a server at a time. There is way more potential for a new game design just by feeding off of the number of players that co-exist at one time! The designers aren't utilizing that concept enough. Why should I join a group if I can solo? One might say that you can level up faster by getting more xp when you're in a group, another person might say that it's best to be in a group because you won't die as much, some might say that they like playing with friends. But in the end, you're just doing the same things with or without the other players.

IMO, mmorpg's need to evolve in such a way, that when you question yourself as to why you're soloing, or why you're in a group, or why you're weaving a freakin' basket, the answer is... because the world wouldn't be the same if I wasn't. :)

[MosBen]

I don't know Steel, it may be the inner uber-nerd in me, but there's just something fun about playing with stats, and I get to do that when I level. I don't think there's anything wrong with playing a game because you like to play with the numbers you get from exploring, what I do think is wrong is if the game in between the number crunchings is so boring and pointless that it seems like a chore to get to the next level. I think what you're saying is actually another option to my "make it easier to level" idea, and is actually the most plausible from a business perspective, it's just also a bit more difficult to do from a creative/design standpoint. What I'm talking about is taking your existing somewhat boring game and compress the adventuring into smaller chunks with quicker numerical rewards. You're talking about keeping the intervals the same, but making the underlying gameplay better. I'd sure love to see that happen, I'm just not sure what it would look like, and in the meantime I'm stuck with a game that I actually do like playing, I just wish it felt like what I did was actually doing something for me in the game other than bringing me another infintesimally small step closer to that oh so satifying ding.

[Steele Johnson]

I don't know.... I have a feeling if you leveled up more often, the feeling of being rewarded would diminish. With the current design, the ultimate goal is to get to the next lvl. If that goal was too easy, or happened too frequently, the feeling of accomplishment would be gone, and all you'd have left is the same boring gameplay. Too me it would be like basketball, whereas every basket is a level. The first 90 baskets are meaningless until the last minute of the game. The problem is that there is no last minute of an mmorpg. :)

What I'm saying is to add something more exciting to keep a gamer's interest so that as to keep their mind off of the "I can't wait to level" paradigm. If the design changed in such a way that it would keep the gamer's mind on something more important, or more fun, then the anticipation of getting to the next level would not matter, and it would be just a subset of a series of goals and manifestations in the game world.

[MosBen]

I agree Steele, your solution is certainly the better one, I just don't know what it would be like. I'm sure though that some clever developer will come up with something interesting. In the mean time though, I just wish it wasn't such a grind...