Putting the RPG back in MMORPG

[Garthilk]

From the original masters of online roleplaying games, Simutronics decided to show off their upcoming MMORPG to a select few at this years E3. Not only did the game look great, but also the world felt and looked alive. Check out this preview by Okratas.

If you like to roleplay, or want an MMO with an immersive world where your character is not only unique, but is a key in the story. Check out this preview for Hero's Journey.

Full Story Here (http://hj.okratas.com/index.php?module=subjects&func=viewpage&pageid=2).

[Liquidize105]

I approved it, but honestly I'm not very impressed with your article. Here's why:

The article contains 3 and only 3 somewhat important details - 1. there's group combat moves, 2. there are pre-set traps/blockade, and 3. the character's clothing is customizable.

That's it. You didn't mention to what degree would any of this affect the overall gameplay.

Also You fell head over heels for a mmorpg with how many hours of play? Poised to take MMO again? Help define the genre? I can't draw any conclusions for myself with just 3 remotely alternative ideas that have all been done before in non-mmos.

If you think this mmo has something substantially new and different, rewrite your article and explain the nuts and bolts to us.

[snubber]

dizzamn!!!

[bobbler]

From the article the game does sound interesting. I like how environment is seemingly a bit more important than in normal MMOs, where environments are very static and are usually very limited in the way you can interact with them (doors, buttons only). Worth keeping an eye on at least.

[Taran Wanderer]

I approved it, but honestly I'm not very impressed with your article.

If you think this mmo has something substantially new and different, rewrite your article and explain the nuts and bolts to us.

Damn, no need to be so harsh. I thought the article was fine. During his short time with the game, Garthilk found 3 things that impressed him the most. He described these 3 things to us. I don't see how you could possibly expect him to explain the nuts and bolts of an MMO after seeing it at E3. I mean, "professional" journalists have a tough time with this when doing a full review. And this is an MMO. How the heck would he be able to judge how these ideas affect overall gameplay for an MMO in what I assume was a non-MMO setting? This article is a PREVIEW. You don't explain "nuts and bolts" in a preview. You give your target audience a taste of some elements of the game. This is exactly what Garthrik has done.

[dr_qwandry]

looks like I might actually consider picking up an MMORPG one day

[KDups]

Damn on the reply. E3 is crazy, the fact that companies show MMOs on the floor is pretty silly. But they have to get the game out there, can't just ignore the biggest trade event of the year. Garthilk's impressions seem typical for an E3 "first look".

Now if he actually worked on the game, it would be a bit different...

[Liquidize105]

Damn, no need to be so harsh. I thought the article was fine. During his short time with the game, Garthilk found 3 things that impressed him the most. He described these 3 things to us. I don't see how you could possibly expect him to explain the nuts and bolts of an MMO after seeing it at E3. I mean, "professional" journalists have a tough time with this when doing a full review. And this is an MMO. How the heck would he be able to judge how these ideas affect overall gameplay for an MMO in what I assume was a non-MMO setting? This article is a PREVIEW. You don't explain "nuts and bolts" in a preview. You give your target audience a taste of some elements of the game. This is exactly what Garthrik has done.
I believe I explained myself very well (so don't quote me out of context). The article said it was out-standing and genre-defining, I wanted to know why. If he came to that conclusion through only these 3 things, I'd call that premature. I simply went by the description in the intro that the body didn't follow.

I was being critical, not harsh. :cool:

[jeffool]

I gotta go with Liquidize here. I mean, it's not like he denied the post, or even lambasted the guy on the front page. He saw some claims and noted that he expected such claims to be backed up. By "nuts and bolts" I feel Lq obviously meant the 'nuts and bolts' of what made this MMORPG spectacular.

Admittedly I'm generally not an MMORPG guy, and that's largely because "I" as a single player don't matter to the world. What Garthilk wrote on the front-page-blurb for EvAv was energetic and pretty good. It got me interested. And the game looks like it could be cool to be honest. I loved the mentioned gameplay specifics. (Though how is 'my' player key in the story?)

And no offense, but http://www.spellcheck.net/ is a useful tool.

I'm not 'part of EvAv' (, though I'm taking credit for coining the term "EvAv",) but anything that makes the community I reside in a better place is a positive step. And this coming from a guy who near-offended a site op the other day on this very site.

[Deadend]

So, why do small companies keep making MMOs? It does not seem to be the best genre to make a game in, even if your dev team has experince with MUDs, and thus, in theory, could make a better MMORPG.

[Talanvor]

Customizable clothing? Great, so I get to stand in line for hours on end hoping that maybe a merchant will show up, do about 10 people out of the hundred that gather, then disappear?

RPG? Are you fucking kidding me? I played their masterpiece, GemStone 3, for years and I could count on one hand all of the times I've been given RP bonuses. At the time I quit the game there were zero, let me repeat that, ZERO quests to do for experience. It was ALL hack and slash, unless you were an Empath, then you could heal. Which basically meant you sat on your ass in the node running macros all day.

Oh and their delightful experience system. Basically it was like this. You "filled" your head with experience, then you had to go rest and absorb it. You could keep fighting, but beyond a certain point you were faced with diminishing returns. So the routine ran go hunt until your head was full then ring back to the safe node, rest, go AFK for about 15 minutes or chat if you had a group, then head out again. Lather, rinse, repeat. I didn't have a term like grinding at the time to describe it.

And their GameMasters were hopelessly corrupt. You think the crap going on in WoW is bad? They've got nothing on these guys. I've been personally hunted down and killed, multiple times, without even knowing what I had done or who I had pissed off.

Seriously, the only way I might contemplate joining is if it's a rocking game (i.e. it's almost nothing like GS or DR, at all) and NONE of the people involved with their previous games are running it. And even then I'd loathe to give that company anymore of my money. I've become that bitter about my experience with them.

[Thenetcase]

The article said it was out-standing and genre-defining, I wanted to know why. If he came to that conclusion through only these 3 things, I'd call that premature. I simply went by the description in the intro that the body didn't follow.

I could have told you that World of Warcraft would be an instant classic by playing it for 10-15 minutes very easily. I couldn't have told you exactly why.
Sometimes you can play a game for a short amount of time and get a feeling about it that says "Blockbuster". If you've never gotten that, then you're probably not supposed to be so harsh a critic.

I'm not saying that's what this guy got and I'm not saying that this game really even strikes me as impressive. I'm just saying that sometimes people will say apparently stupid things like that because of a vibe or something they got off the game.

Not to sound cliche, but sometimes you can just tell. :)

-TNC-

[Taran Wanderer]

I believe I explained myself very well (so don't quote me out of context). The article said it was out-standing and genre-defining, I wanted to know why. If he came to that conclusion through only these 3 things, I'd call that premature. I simply went by the description in the intro that the body didn't follow.

I was being critical, not harsh. :cool:

First, you'd really have to be stretching things to say I quoted you out of context. Hell, our posts are separated by two short posts. I doubt that anyone who is reading this thread would be misled by the fact that I didn't copy and paste your entire post.

Second, if I had taken the time to write an article, and someone told me in a public forum, "I approved it, but honestly I'm not very impressed with your article," I'd feel insulted and patronized. You could have simply not approved the article and made your comments private. Or you could have just taken some responsibility for your approval without comment. Maybe I'm just ignorant about how the editing process works, but I'm pretty sure criticism (constructive or not) usually is not public.

Third, he did not say the game was "genre-defining." He said it would "help define the genre." Splitting hairs? Maybe. But I think there's a difference between these two statements, and others might too. So maybe you shouldn't misquote others to justify your argument.

Fourth, I would say go back and reread his introduction to figure out what the goal of his little article is. Here's the last sentence (commonly the thesis sentence of an essay) of his intro: "What impressed me the most was the gameplay, and the character creation process." Then he talked a little bit about both and mentioned something about the content as well. He supported his thesis. Well done.

Lastly, this is a PREview. His claims are PREmature? Well, duh. He's providing his gut instinct on his feelings about the game. He describes a few elements of the game given his short experience at E3. Good job, I say.

[Garthilk]

Woah, calm down guys.

Since you've already read the article, and you know what impressed me the most, let me help connect the dots for you. First I rarely speak in absolutes. Reread the article, and I think you'll find that to be true. Lastly, everyone has their own unique opinion, just like everyone else.

The article contains 3 and only 3 somewhat important details - 1. there's group combat moves, 2. there are pre-set traps/blockade, and 3. the character's clothing is customizable.

Here is how some of the things I will mention, can effect gameplay. In terms of character customization, often one barrier to roleplaying is how you look. If you want to be the dingy Samuri swordsman, who looks desheveled but uses it as a facade for his true skill. Can you do that? Yes. Simply the amount of character customizaiton seen during the preview was amazing. Also, how many MMORPGs lets you look like you want to? This in an of itself is helping to put the RPG back into MMORPG.

Advancement in the game isn't going to be limited by simply hacking away at creatures. Imagine a game where items, clothing, and weapons are intergrated into your advancement.

What other game has combo's? Heroic opportunities pusha! As an example of what I saw. One warrior engaged a large creature. The second warrior in the party knelt down on one knee. The rogue in the party ran towards the kneeling warrior, jumped off him, spun around in the air and slashed at the creatures head.

Also, the preset/traps and blockades, don't have to be triggered. They are parts of a quest that if you don't have a keen eye, or mind you could miss and pass up, thus altering your quest. Quests could have many different endings, or several different legs. Each different than the others, based on what your actions are.

If while on the first leg of a quest you don't defeat the monsters who are building a tower that might amplify their power, the second leg of the quest will be considerably difficult if they do complete the tower.

I've played every MMO since M59. Contributed to several official strategy guides, and tested a list to long to type. Hero's Journey impressed me.

[Liquidize105]

Work all that into your article. All I'm saying is that something was left by the wayside when you wrote that piece. You were obviously impressed; but I, from reading your translation, was not.

[Blue]

Despite the article itself being somewhat short, it has me interested. Acted as a very good teaser, I suppose. If they can execute some of what they mentioned in the party attacks or the enviornmental elements (the rock slide or the bridge) and not have it simply be a gimmick (only able to just target a certain section of rock or just use the catapolt mentioned to take down the bridge....why not simply have the warrior take out the ropes with his sword himself?, etc), this may end up being the MMO for me.

I'm farily new to the genre - FF XI being my first, WoW my second - but this seems to have the potential to be an interesting spin within the online gaming world. Would love to see some strategy added aside from the usual Warrior tanks, Warlock nukes, Healer heals with the Paladin back-up tank/healer formula. I'll have to keep my eye on it.

[Blue]

Woah, calm down guys.

Since you've already read the article, and you know what impressed me the most, let me help connect the dots for you. First I rarely speak in absolutes. Reread the article, and I think you'll find that to be true. Lastly, everyone has their own unique opinion, just like everyone else.

The article contains 3 and only 3 somewhat important details - 1. there's group combat moves, 2. there are pre-set traps/blockade, and 3. the character's clothing is customizable.

Here is how some of the things I will mention, can effect gameplay. In terms of character customization, often one barrier to roleplaying is how you look. If you want to be the dingy Samuri swordsman, who looks desheveled but uses it as a facade for his true skill. Can you do that? Yes. Simply the amount of character customizaiton seen during the preview was amazing. Also, how many MMORPGs lets you look like you want to? This in an of itself is helping to put the RPG back into MMORPG.

Advancement in the game isn't going to be limited by simply hacking away at creatures. Imagine a game where items, clothing, and weapons are intergrated into your advancement.

What other game has combo's? Heroic opportunities pusha! As an example of what I saw. One warrior engaged a large creature. The second warrior in the party knelt down on one knee. The rogue in the party ran towards the kneeling warrior, jumped off him, spun around in the air and slashed at the creatures head.

Also, the preset/traps and blockades, don't have to be triggered. They are parts of a quest that if you don't have a keen eye, or mind you could miss and pass up, thus altering your quest. Quests could have many different endings, or several different legs. Each different than the others, based on what your actions are.

If while on the first leg of a quest you don't defeat the monsters who are building a tower that might amplify their power, the second leg of the quest will be considerably difficult if they do complete the tower.

I've played every MMO since M59. Contributed to several official strategy guides, and tested a list to long to type. Hero's Journey impressed me.

Okay, the part about the Rogue and the Warrior was smooth; creamy peanut-butter smooth. If you're alluding to the fact that you can indeed be a Samurai in this game, my money is already spent. While FF XI had it's flaws, I stuck with it a lot longer than I probably should have simply because I wanted to keep running around mowing things down with my Katana (or Great Katana if we're using the trappings of the FF wording).

I'll admit to being somewhat disappointed in reading that there are pre-set tracks/blockades, but it would still be a nice change of pace while on a particular quest to keep it a) fresh, b) interesting, and c) make one feel as though they are actually questing.

[rein]

I approved it, but honestly I'm not very impressed with your article. Here's why:

The article contains 3 and only 3 somewhat important details - 1. there's group combat moves, 2. there are pre-set traps/blockade, and 3. the character's clothing is customizable.

That's it. You didn't mention to what degree would any of this affect the overall gameplay.

Also You fell head over heels for a mmorpg with how many hours of play? Poised to take MMO again? Help define the genre? I can't draw any conclusions for myself with just 3 remotely alternative ideas that have all been done before in non-mmos.

If you think this mmo has something substantially new and different, rewrite your article and explain the nuts and bolts to us.

So now we get our news submissions critiqued too. After seeing some of the crap that has been posted the last week I find it funny that this is the one that gets the big critique. If nothing else, why not just reply and ask him to re-submit the article when it is written more to your liking. Why criticize it after approving it on the public site you approved it on. Do your job as an editor instead of trying to look big on a message board. This isn't the message board part of the site, this is the news part. EvilAvatar seems to be slipping lately.

[Mason]

To be fair, FFXI already has group combat moves, and GW already has the more interactive instanced environment. And player customization is something that every MMO claims, with varying degrees of veracity.

So to someone that has played a few MMOs, this article doesn't highlight anything particularly unique about the game.

Having limited exposure to a MMO during E3 makes it hard to evalute in depth, of course. But that should change the ton of one's article from "here's the unique wonderful stuff that'll make this game superior to all other MMOs" to "here's what I observed about the game". When your evidence doesn't add up to your thesis, it rubs people the wrong way.

[Mason]

So now we get our news submissions critiqued too. After seeing some of the crap that has been posted the last week I find it funny that this is the one that gets the big critique. If nothing else, why not just reply and ask him to re-submit the article when it is written more to your liking. Why criticize it after approving it on the public site you approved it on. Do your job as an editor instead of trying to look big on a message board. This isn't the message board part of the site, this is the news part. EvilAvatar seems to be slipping lately.

First, this was a guy submitting his own review of the game as news. EvAv mods can control what gets posted on the actual submission, but have no place telling him what to write on his own website. There would be no reason to deny the submission, as it is about a game for which there has been relatively little exposure. But EvAv mods do not give up their ability, as members of the site, to express their feelings about posted news.

These guys have both editorial voices, and voices as members of the community. Liquid kept his editorial voice silent on this one (approved the submission to the front page w/o comment) and criticized it as a member of the community, which seems to me quite appropriate.

[Taran Wanderer]

EvAv mods can control what gets posted on the actual submission, but have no place telling him what to write on his own website.

Yes, mods have no place telling people what to write on his or her own website.


If you think this mmo has something substantially new and different, rewrite your article and explain the nuts and bolts to us.


Work all that into your article.

[Blue]

To be fair, FFXI already has group combat moves, and GW already has the more interactive instanced environment. And player customization is something that every MMO claims, with varying degrees of veracity.

I had totally forgotten about the skillchains in FF XI. That did require a bit of skill and planning in order to time one's attack properly and use the right chain to exploit an enemy's weakness. The teamwork elements mentioned above could easily have a similar feel to them in terms of timing but I'm wondering if they're stronger attacks, ways to stun an enemy, or perhaps made to draw the mob's attention (like the Rogue example, perhaps that's them pushing him/her in as the primary attacker) - if these combo attacks are more skill induced rather than simply attack-based.

Does WoW have anything like skillchains to where you can time things to make for a larger dmg bonus? Haven't found any, but then again I'm a level 47 Hunter and still trying to figure out macros, so my credibility is more or less obsolete anyhow.

[Thenetcase]

Work all that into your article. All I'm saying is that something was left by the wayside when you wrote that piece. You were obviously impressed; but I, from reading your translation, was not.

I agree with lukemi on this one... Who are you to tell someone how to write an article on their own website?
You obviously have a hugely over-inflated idea of your importance. Get over it. You just aren't that important to anyone on this forum.

I think that the article was actually well written. I've gone over it several times and I see no problem with it or any of his claims.

If you want a better article, Liquid... Write one of your own. Oh wait... you can't because you didn't play it, perhaps? Well, no use showing us how sour the grapes are because of that. Get ahold of yourself and step off before everyone hates you.

-TNC-

[Liquidize105]

Ahaha, some of you are taking this a little too far :D

Yes, I approved it. No, I'm not telling Garthilk how to writw his stuff. I went with what was said in the article and I critiqued it. There's a fair bit of presumptuous language in it, I looked for the basis of these bold words and found naught, so I threw in a few suggestions for good measure.

Speaking of presumptuous language though, I was talking to bapenquin the other day about how I think my posting behaviors have changed since I made staff here, that I've become more prone to compromise because people are so critical of mods. Evil's got my respect for speaking his mind as an admin, you should see how many people jump on his back. How many other admins do that?

I didn't like it when a mod gave my submission the face-lift, so I don't do that. But as a member of the EA community, it's just not me to take the middle ground all the time, or most of the time :D

It's nice knowing I still got my balls huh? :D Honestly, I don't think anyone here can speak for the site itself.

[Garthilk]

People,

Lets lay off Liquidize a bit. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Honestly, I know my writing skills are far from that of anything resembling a writer. I appreciate the fact that they take the time to do their jobs here, and opinions are always welcome. Reguardless of whether or not you liked the style of the article, I encourage all of you to check out the game for youserlf. Though there is little in the way of official info, try to dig around and check it out!

[ldi222]

I think Liquidize was power playing a little and has since backed off saving face by saying it took "balls." I thought there was nothing wrong with the article to begin with.

[Rommel]

Stop listening to the mods. If we did that this place would be no fun, and Evil wouldn't constantly be shooting at us. Seriously, the man is a loose cannon. And reanimated has sex with horses. And I apparently hate games. This place is about having fun, so lighten up and get back to telling others they cannot S-P-E-L-L-0-X-X-0-R.

My toaster > Nintendo Revolution

[mister_slim]

I do love being reminded how dumb most people are. Thanks EvAv (and I believe I used that first).

[jeffool]

Hmmm, I may be wrong... It was pre-wipe so I can't tell when... But my bad. Maybe I read and forgot it, or we both thought it up independently. Hmmm. Wanna share credit?

"Mods are people too!"

[A-Team]

So now we get our news submissions critiqued too. After seeing some of the crap that has been posted the last week I find it funny that this is the one that gets the big critique. If nothing else, why not just reply and ask him to re-submit the article when it is written more to your liking. Why criticize it after approving it on the public site you approved it on. Do your job as an editor instead of trying to look big on a message board. This isn't the message board part of the site, this is the news part. EvilAvatar seems to be slipping lately.
I'm not going to comment on posts being made by other people, but I will say this. As someone that writes his own articles (previews, news briefs, etc.), I've learned that the only way to get better is to absorb every single reply that I receive. Even if I feel that the article has a powerful foundation and flows well, I still find myself making very minor mistakes from time to time that nearly ruin my writings.

Now, if you apply this logic to the feedback that Garthilk's article received, then it should be clear that people are just being critical to help him out. He doesn't need 20 people coming to his aid over a little feedback. Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion regardless of the situation.

Time for me to go read the article now. :)

[A-Team]

Before I begin, it's important that to note that everything stated in this post is entirely my opinion. The purpose of my response to Garthilk's article is to provide constructive criticism and help him become a better writer. In understanding that each and every one of us has his/her own writing style, I must say that I'm not here to change his style.

Here's the list of "problems" I saw with the article (in no particular order):

- You state that Simultronics is making a "new graphical MMORPG", which emphasizes their use of graphics. The two problems I see with this are (1) you contradict yourself in the next line that the most spectacular thing about Hero's Journey isn't the graphics and (2) you don't really explain why the graphics are so good. What you might consider doing in the future is splitting the introduction like you did, but explain yourself a little more before jumping into the "body" of your article.

- I noticed a good number of misplaced .'s and ,'s that should've been noticed during revision.

- Try not to jump around so much. Example: When you're talking about the rogue flipping over the warrior to slash the creature, what exactly happened? Is there a possibility that the rogue could miss while performing such an attack?
- More explanation for the quest system would've been good

- You say that the character customization options are unique in such a way that every character can seemingly stand out amongst his or her peers. What I don't understand though is why that is especially when considering all of the options available in EverQuest 2 (in terms of customizable traits). It'd be helpful if you added more information about the various options available to the end-user such as hair color, eye color, etc.

- A screenshot of your character would've been great, but I know how dreadful company NDAs are.

- The "Content" portion of the article is much too short. Every MMOG I've played has "original and exciting content" and it's kind of hard to "imagine" a game with the few details you gave us. My only advice would be to try and be more specific.

- The "Closing" is extremely weak. After going through and explaining all of that information about the game, it might've been better to recap on the highlights of your experience.

----------------------

Since I've been honest up to this point, I'll just go ahead and tell you that the article could've been better. Although I'm glad that you're taking a stab at it, I must say that being lazy with your grammar and spelling won't get you very far. Any form of a misspelling or grammatical error instantly throws the reader off track and can cause people to misinterpret what you're trying to say.

Another key area that you need to focus on is detail. Telling us what you think of something and telling us about something are two entirely different approaches. You should consider sticking to a third-person point-of-view in future articles at least until you're able to mix the two together evenly.

All in all, I can only tell you to keep working at it and that I hope to see more articles from you in the future.

[Liquidize105]

Anyway, I take responsibility for being the first EA member to respond, and for using the oppositional "YOU" language more than I intended to.

But half of you are not really listening, so god help me and bring on the imps :D

[Garthilk]

I think perhaps from now on, I will preface all of my internet ramblings with the phrase. I am not a journalist, writer, english teacher, or dictator. Frankly in the 30 minutes that I had with the developers, I wasn't able to pin down every detail. In fact, I asked the core questions and I did not have enough time to get them all answered. Questions about player verses player combat, questions about housing, questions about the scalability of the graphics engine.

If my poorly writen article somehow has inspired you to learn more about the game, then objective complete. I appreciate all the feedback, thank you.

[Taran Wanderer]

I think perhaps from now on, I will preface all of my internet ramblings with the phrase. I am not a journalist, writer, english teacher, or dictator. Frankly in the 30 minutes that I had with the developers, I wasn't able to pin down every detail. In fact, I asked the core questions and I did not have enough time to get them all answered. Questions about player verses player combat, questions about housing, questions about the scalability of the graphics engine.

If my poorly writen article somehow has inspired you to learn more about the game, then objective complete. I appreciate all the feedback, thank you.
I'll definitely be keeping an eye out for future info on this game. Thanks for the preview, Garthilk. And no, you should not have to preface your articles in such a way as you described. Your preview was quite functional.

I also don't think the point of this forum is to critique the writing found in every news item that comes along. Otherwise, there'd never be any useful discussion possible about the content of a linked IGN article.

If you're a great editor in your own mind, and you'd like to provide some useful feedback to someone, why not just send the person a private message? Is common courtesy too much to expect in an online environment? Ok, maybe that was a stupid question.

Of course, if a truly craptastic article gets posted, I would welcome a public outcry from all the forum members.

Finally, I apologize if I was excessively belligerent in defense of Garthilk's article. I simply felt he deserved better treatment.

[A-Team]

No problem with the feedback.

How can I pass up a game that lets me flip over someone, spiral through the air and cut something to pieces with a knife? :)

[bapenguin]

Where's the RPG? :D