X1950PRO AGP as good as PC-E brother?

[Fonz]

FiringSquad (http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/powercolor_radeon_x1950_pro_agp_review/default.asp) has a review of the new RADEON X1950pro AGP and the results were pretty nice, most of the times only 1-2 fps difference in games, and in some cases faster than the PCI-E version of the card.

There has been concerns about how mature and capable PCI-E really is. I know for someone like myself who still has a really good AGP system, upgrading my whole system mobo/ram/cpu just to get a new pci-e card is not a option I want to consider since quad core affordability is a year away, DDR3, and 2nd generation DX10 cards too with a more exposed Windows Vista.

[NeuroMan42]

I agree... I still have and love my AGP system, and upgrading just for a PCI-e card is a bit extreme at this time.

[jpublic]

Most people *don't* upgrade just for PCI-E. They upgrade because they want a newer processor, and really, you're not getting a Core2- or AM2-capable MB without PCI-E, or they want SLI/Crossfire, both of which are PCI-E based.

[OldeWolf]

Thats one monster fan on that thing. The next thing we know, they will have a fan bigger than the card itself, not counting the case that holds the fan on top of the card. I wonder when it will become the biggest thing that takes up space in a computer case.

[Grifter]

This is definitely good news, and for only $200 it's a better deal than nVidia's 7800gs in every aspect.

Now I just need the release date and $200.

[crashedout]

This is no surprise, single video cards were not using enough bandwidth to saturate AGP, let alone PCIE. I was forced to PCIE due to no good GPU's at the time. I am just ticked that the PCIE expansion market still sucks. Still waiting for a good PCIE sound card, tuners that are not expensive....maybe next year. Its good to see some AGP support, although a little late.

[Watership]

I fought the good fight and avoided getting awhole new computer, just so I can buy a new videocard. 2006 was okay for me, until Company of Heroes came out. Now i'm hurting. I'm very glad to read about his card.

[The Continental]

This makes me happy, I'm hoping to get one more year out of the current rig with the addition of a new video card, before springing for a new machine around this time next year.

[Taco]

I just bought a 7950GT from NewEgg for 239. Can't beat that.

Though I also bought a mobo, cpu, drives, memory, case, ect ;). I went the Intel route, for the first time since my P2 333.

[ldi222]

eh I have a 7800 GTX PCI-E and I like it. Its nice to see AGP still getting some support but in the long run the money is better spent on technology that isnt close to obsolete.

[fitbabits]

Holy crap, that's not a fan on that card - it's a small village or subdivision.

[Cupelix]

seriously, I don't think that fan would even FIT in my Shuttle. I groan when I see shit like this or the double slot video cards that are all over the place now.

Someone needs to find a better solution.

[Wyrm]

Got a pair of 8800 GTXs for christmas, so this card can effectively kiss my butt. ;)

[ToeBot]

There are at least 5 companies making an AGP version with the same RV570 chip so there should be a model to accommodate most everyone's needs. It should force the prices down a bit as well.

[Corngood]

I wonder how much this has to do with the games themselves. I doubt many games take advantage of the PCIE bandwidth, as they need to run on AGP as well. From my experience, most games try to change the data used by the GPU as little as possible and just leave it in graphics ram.

It's still a good value though, because there's no need to pay for the extra bandwidth if it's not going to be used.

[Syl]

AGP is so unused these days that it took me forever to sell off that 6800GT AGP i've had....

[Talltale]

I think in general its gotten to the point that I would much much rather buy a 360, or put those pennies toward a really nice HDTV as opposed to upgrading my PC in ANY fashion.

[Varsity]

I wonder how much this has to do with the games themselves. I doubt many games take advantage of the PCIE bandwidth, as they need to run on AGP as well.
You, sir, are correct.

[51|RandoM]

PCI-E is a bus. As such, don't expect one individual card to tax it. If it did, then the bus obviously sucks.

[Draft]

AGP cards never even came close to maxing out the available bandwidth of the AGP slot. The move to PCI-e was an "upgrade" in name only.

[51|RandoM]

I think in general its gotten to the point that I would much much rather buy a 360, or put those pennies toward a really nice HDTV as opposed to upgrading my PC in ANY fashion.

Just depends on how you spend your time. I'd go hungry before letting my PC stagnate. People say home is where the heart is, well home for me is where my PC is .

Compare the PC version of Oblivion after adding a few popular interface mods to the 360 version... and you'll know one of the main reasons a PC is a requirement for some gamers.

[Taco]

I've spent probably 7k over the last 4 years on my home PCs.

Consoles and TV combined, $200 for a used XBox a couple years ago. That's it. This whole post is just as pointless and stupid as Talltale's.

[swiftdraw]

AGP cards never even came close to maxing out the available bandwidth of the AGP slot. The move to PCI-e was an "upgrade" in name only.

From what my really tech oriented friends tell me, the move to PCI-E was to avoid some sort of royalty dues that came with AGP. That was the only real reason for the switch, to avoid paying royalties.

[Taco]

Well, I know the expansion capability with SLI is nice. I only have one, but it's nice to know 6 months from now I can pop a second in.

I remember loving the ability to do that with my Voodoo 2's as well.

[Corngood]

AGP cards never even came close to maxing out the available bandwidth of the AGP slot. The move to PCI-e was an "upgrade" in name only.


I don't think that's fair, if AGP wasn't maxed out, it was because of the software, not the hardware (at least with newer GPUs). I'm sure if you started writing software that pushed a lot of data across the bus by texturing or drawing geometry from system memory, or reading back graphics memory, you'd see a big difference. Current games don't do those things much, because they were too slow before the PCIE bus. Now with DirectX 10 and multicore CPUs, it makes a lot more sense to start sharing work between the CPU and GPU, and I'm sure developers will start to take advantage of the bus speed.

[cp#]

Ahh the cliche PC saying

"Why upgrade now when next year there will be this and this and this!"

The problem is you can say that at any fucking time. There will always be something better on the horizon, that is just how it works.

If you want to upgrade now to PCI-E from AGP then you would be perfectly fine with a Core 2 Duo system for a few years. AGP is dead (!!!!) and the CPU sitting in your AGP enabled mobo has got to be showing its age.

Upgrading will require you to buy a CPU, mobo, video card, hard drive, RAM, PSU, case and accessories but if you want to wait that isn't going to change.

SLI is not useless or unnecessary.

[tombofsoldier]

PC Gaming is being killed by the very people that depend on it. ATI and Nvidia keep amping the prices for new video cards, which drives more and more people to consoles to save money/time and effort. I am starting to think that gaming does need a swift kick in the arse to get back on track, maybe the PS3 failing will do that.

[RMan]

I don't think that's fair, if AGP wasn't maxed out, it was because of the software, not the hardware (at least with newer GPUs). I'm sure if you started writing software that pushed a lot of data across the bus by texturing or drawing geometry from system memory, or reading back graphics memory, you'd see a big difference.
Here’s the point, your argument seems predicated on the idea of writing software to make use of new technology, which is a wholly backward approach. Software and hardware should be developed as a way to satisfy a need (or at least in anticipation of one), games don’t push a lot of data across the bus because it doesn’t need to, and even if they did, it’d ALWAYS be slower than doing it on the card. They’re concentrating on geometry shaders and the like, which is good, that’s WAY smarter than trying to push stuff across the bus and put more strain on your general purpose CPU. Anyway, PCIE, yet another near useless “upgrade” that you have to deal with because you have little choice, hardly a new thing.

[ldi222]

This is another fanboy thread of those that have PCI-E are going to say its better and those who dont are going to try and find a way to say its worse. Putting more money towards a console instead of staying current and thus supporting the PC market is just selling out your soul.

[Taco]

Not really. There is a right answer and it's been stated a couple times already. PCI-E is better, period, if only for SLI support. But it's not nearly good enough to justify a system upgrade. I'm not sure who would disagree with that.

However I totally agree with your closing point :).

[MasterKwan]

My machine's top of the line. I use it for work and need it current. Still, I feel the pull of console gaming and am starting to feel like I don't care about gaming on my PC any more. It's hard to top GOW or "Fall of Man" on my HDTV versus hunching over my nice 22" LCD. I vowed to never play a shooter on a console but, after playing Vegas and to a lesser extent, FOM, I'm starting to get the hang of it.

Sure, I'll play Cryisis on my PC. It's special but, when I pick up games, instead of getting the PC version, I get the console one instead.

[crashedout]

Not really. There is a right answer and it's been stated a couple times already. PCI-E is better, period, if only for SLI support. But it's not nearly good enough to justify a system upgrade. I'm not sure who would disagree with that.

However I totally agree with your closing point :).


I don't know, the last time I did a price comparison(10 months ago) SLI/Crossfire did not make sense if you were concerned with bang/dollar. If you want all out speed, like the guy above with two 8800's, it is great but it you are on a budget it is more cost effective to sell your current card and get the latest version rather than add a second of the older. I have not priced it now but I suspect the costs are similar. Also it tied you to one brand and we all know the leaders can change every quarter. To each their own. I was forced to uprade to PCIE so I may be biased.

[Voodoo]

I know for Core 2 there are AGP motherboards fully available. I'm unsure about AM2 though... There are even Core 2 mainboard that allow you to use either DDR 1 or DDR 2. PCIe is very nice, I like it since I've moved to it only because of the available GPUs.

[51|RandoM]

I don't know, the last time I did a price comparison(10 months ago) SLI/Crossfire did not make sense if you were concerned with bang/dollar.

In normal situations(as in a 2nd card didn't fall from the skies into your uplifted hands)SLI/Crossfire never makes sense when talking bang for buck.

SLI/crossfire only really make sense when what needs to be done cannot be done acceptably with a single card. Case in point: Driving 23 inch or larger widescreen panels at native resolution with full eye candy in modern games(before the 8800GTX, and argueably before the latest ATI part).

Back when I did the last major upgrade to my computer, the 7800gtx was top dog and a single 7800gtx couldn't drive a 23" LCD at native resolution with full eyecandyin some games, so I bought two. Sadly, even two of them can't do that for some of the very latest games. I'm going to sell both of them, get an 8800GTX or maybe the next refresh.

I will be very happy to go back to a single card solution. Dealing with SLI is quite frankly a headache I would prefer to do without.

[MacD]

The benchmarks on this card proove that AGP need not have been dumped.

Guess my AGP machine still has legs...if it didn't hold up so well. I still play the latest games at speed (except for Gothic3...but I finally fixed that!:P) and quality, I can push 1.2 million polys in 3dsmax and recursive calcs in matlab go fast enough. Not bad for a two year old machine with one gfx card upgrade and two extra 512mb's of ram. By the time my 6800ultra is underpowered, this card will cost $100-150 and will be good enough. Or gaming/applications will have gone 64 bit and I'll upgrade whole hog...but that's still years away.

[MasterKwan]

Something nobody's really commented on is that the X1950 PRO's not that much of a video card any more. In any performance comparison, it's pretty much low man of the graphics totem pole. It's what I have in my system. It's OK but, there are plenty of faster cards that aren't available in AGP.

[51|RandoM]

The benchmarks on this card proove that AGP need not have been dumped.

AGP needed dumping, these benchmarks just don't have anything to do with the reasons.

PCI-E wasn't an upgrade specifically for AGP, it was an upgrade for PCI. Since it has more than enough horsepower to handle videocards too, it made perfectly good sense to ditch AGP.

[Schnoogs]

AGP doesn't scale any more...they HAD to ditch it. So this is the one genration of PCI-E that is on par with AGP. Once they switch to 32x, AGP is choking on PCI-E's dust.

[Schnoogs]

Something nobody's really commented on is that the X1950 PRO's not that much of a video card any more. In any performance comparison, it's pretty much low man of the graphics totem pole. It's what I have in my system. It's OK but, there are plenty of faster cards that aren't available in AGP.

That's not true...the X1950 is far more affordable than any of those faster options. I have an X1900 and I can play ALL of the current games at 2560x1600 so even though there are faster cards out there the X1950 is still fast and a far better value than say an 8800 who's cost reflects how new it is.

For someone who has an older PC sitting around and doesn't want to change motherboard, ram, processor just to get PCI-E this card will be a FANTASTIC way of maxing that system out and enjoying all of the recent games at resolutions like 1600x1200 or even 1920x1200.

[MacD]

AGP needed dumping, these benchmarks just don't have anything to do with the reasons.

PCI-E wasn't an upgrade specifically for AGP, it was an upgrade for PCI. Since it has more than enough horsepower to handle videocards too, it made perfectly good sense to ditch AGP.

@Random: you do realise that AGP is just PCIplus? As in, AGP is a form of PCI, modified for graphical data throughput.

AGP doesn't scale any more...they HAD to ditch it. So this is the one genration of PCI-E that is on par with AGP. Once they switch to 32x, AGP is choking on PCI-E's dust.

@Schnoogs: PCI-E has been around for, what...a year or two? With video card cycles being something like half yearly, that's three to four cycles where AGP performance has been not just viable, but perfectly adequate. Hell, right now, we're still not hitting AGPx8 throughput maximums! If vendors put out AGP versions of the 8800, that would still be satisfied (and not overflow) AGPx8 throughput.

But you're right, at one point, AGP needs to be replaced. Thing is, that was not two years ago and it's not now. Theoretically, PCI-E is much better than AGP...but we're not filling AGPx8 bandwidth as is; not with the latest games at least.

@everyone: HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!

@myself: shit, I come home from a new years party, drunk, and the first thing I do is start up firefox? I should have put on my beergoggles :P