[Comics] - Dan Slott's New Project: Avengers - The Initiative

[Dr.Finger]

From Newsarama (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=94501):
Avengers: The Initiative…I’m not saying who wins Civil War – I’m not saying that at all,” the writer began, “But I will say that there are Pro-Registration heroes, and Anti-Registration heroes, and that for every single guy that registered, there is a price to pay. That price to pay is the Initiative. Whether you knew it or not when you registered, by signing that little slip of paper, you’ve been back-door drafted. If you signed up, you’re falling in when you’re called.

“Marvel’s army of super-heroes is now a super-hero army.”

With art by Stefano (Young Avengers/Runaways) Caselli and covers by Jim Cheung, the miniseries is, essentially, life after Civil War.Slott also says that, unlike most of his recent stuff, this isn't a humor book and has a more serious tone to it.

[Savok]

If more people read Cable & Deadpool this guy wouldn't have to explain it :p

[MaiXu]

Maybe it's the beer talking, but do any of you comic readers get tired of reading the same shit about the same group of characters, over and over?

Just a thought.

[Savok]

Well Deadpool is quite literally insane, he fought and killed the Space Baby.

As for the rest... well I guess that's why they keep having these huge events :p

[Sazime]

Hey! Quesada found a way to fit in another title! No way!

Sad thing is, I'll buy it. Yeah, that's right, I'm a sucker.

[Frogleg Special]

On the scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is Pure Evil and 10 is Pure Good - where does Deadpool stand?

[Savok]

Around 6 when he decided to stop being a "huge jerk" as he put it to everyone, though it can vary wildly based on mood, current events, someone manipulating his mind (happens an awful lot to him) or one of his many, many psychotic breaks.

Like the time he put Blind Al (the old blind lady he kept prisoner in his apartment) and Weasel (his best bud) in "the box", basically a torture chamber for blind people after finding them talking to each other.

[Heretic Machine]

Maybe it's the beer talking, but do any of you comic readers get tired of reading the same shit about the same group of characters, over and over?

Just a thought.

Simply put: No.

[thecrazyd]

Simply put: No.
Speak for yourself.

[agentgray]

Speak for yourself.
I agree. I've only been back "in" for a year now and it is the same old crap over and over and over.

I'm just glad there are people here that can steer me towards good stuff.

[Sazime]

I agree. I've only been back "in" for a year now and it is the same old crap over and over and over.

I'm just glad there are people here that can steer me towards good stuff.
Welcome to [insert media here]. Happens in everything.

[thecrazyd]

Welcome to [insert media here]. Happens in everything.
I dunno, most media doesn't reuse the same characters for 40-60 years straight.

[Kefkataran]

Maybe it's the beer talking, but do any of you comic readers get tired of reading the same shit about the same group of characters, over and over?

Just a thought.

Actually, most comic readers on EvAv aren't interested in "the same shit" at all. That's why most books that are just the basic same ol' superhero v. supervillain stuff aren't the books most of us around here buy.

I dunno, most media doesn't reuse the same characters for 40-60 years straight.

Really? James Bond, Star Wars, Star Trek, Mario, Zelda, the Hardy Boys, Dracula, Frankenstein, and about a million other franchise-style characters all called. They disagree.

Using the same characters does not = the same shit. Right now more than at any other time in comics, people are trying new and interesting stuff that's worth reading. Plenty of "same old" shit is still around, it's just the stuff most of us around here ignore.

On-topic: this new Slott book sounds promising. Sad that it's only a mini, but we'll see how it goes. I've only read one non-humor book of his before (his Arkham Asylum mini), but it was a good read, so hopefully he can pull off something more serious again.

[thecrazyd]

Really? James Bond, Star Wars, Star Trek, Mario, Zelda, the Hardy Boys, Dracula, Frankenstein, and about a million other franchise-style characters all called. They disagree.
James Bond I'll give you, but that is the exception and not the rule. Star Wars has had 6 movies in 20 years, and there is not likely to be another. Star Trek is all new characters and situations in the same Universe. That would be like if the DC Universe was still around, but there is no more Superman or Batman. Mario and Zelda have been around for about 20 years, but this is not really an established continuity. Do they still even make Hardy Boys books? And Dracula and Frankenstein aren't really used anymore either. They had their prime, then faded away.

[Kefkataran]

James Bond I'll give you, but that is the exception and not the rule. Star Wars has had 6 movies in 20 years, and there is not likely to be another. Star Trek is all new characters and situations in the same Universe. That would be like if the DC Universe was still around, but there is no more Superman or Batman. Mario and Zelda have been around for about 20 years, but this is not really an established continuity. Do they still even make Hardy Boys books? And Dracula and Frankenstein aren't really used anymore either. They had their prime, then faded away.

Star Wars has had 6 movies... and a TON of video games, comics, and books. Same with Star Trek, which repeats characters plenty. There is a whole Star Trek universe exploring MANY diff. characters, same as DC. And Mario/Zelda have only been around 20 years, but I'm willing to bet they'll still be around 20-40 years from now.

Yes, they still make Hardy Boys books, and yes Dracula and Frankenstein are still used PLENTY and, at the very least, were used popularly for the 40-60 year amount you mentioned in your first post.

Also, does it not count when it's Warren Ellis re-using these characters? Just saying.

[Anthony W]

Now Dan Slott is going to be serious too? Doesn't Marvel have enough emo writers as it is?

[thecrazyd]

Star Wars has had 6 movies... and a TON of video games, comics, and books. Same with Star Trek, which repeats characters plenty. There is a whole Star Trek universe exploring MANY diff. characters, same as DC. And Mario/Zelda have only been around 20 years, but I'm willing to bet they'll still be around 20-40 years from now.

Yes, they still make Hardy Boys books, and yes Dracula and Frankenstein are still used PLENTY and, at the very least, were used popularly for the 40-60 year amount you mentioned in your first post.

Also, does it not count when it's Warren Ellis re-using these characters? Just saying.
Let's say I you all of your examples (I don't, but let's say I do). Even then, this is a very small amount of content stretched over multiple genres. It is still the exception and not the rule. If you go to a place that sells DVDs, for example, what percentage do you think is franchised content? Now, compare that to your average comic book shop.

I think you will notice quite the disparity.

Heh, and that Warren Ellis remark is a low blow. I still avoid most of his franchised stuff, because you can generally tell that he doesn't care about it like he would a series he created his self.

Also, just cause it can get tiring doesn't mean I ignore it completely. I am not saying that there are no franchised books out there worth reading.

[Kefkataran]

Now Dan Slott is going to be serious too? Doesn't Marvel have enough emo writers as it is?

He's actually done serious before, and fairly well, in the Arkham Asylum mini I mentioned. Check it out.

Let's say I you all of your examples (I don't, but let's say I do). Even then, this is a very small amount of content stretched over multiple genres. It is still the exception and not the rule. If you go to a place that sells DVDs, for example, what percentage do you think is franchised content? Now, compare that to your average comic book shop.

I think you will notice quite the disparity.

Heh, and that Warren Ellis remark is a low blow. I still avoid most of his franchised stuff, because you can generally tell that he doesn't care about it like he would a series he created his self.

Also, just cause it can get tiring doesn't mean I ignore it completely. I am not saying that there are no franchised books out there worth reading.

Oh, see, if you're trying to say that percentage-wise too much of comics is franchise stuff, I agree whole-heartedly. You're right on there. Thankfully we've got DC and Marvel (sort of) both trying new, non-superhero/non-franchise stuff in bigger amounts now than ever. Now it's just a matter of getting more people reading comics, which is something I'm always trying to do, mostly via Vertigo books.

Also, most comic shops nowadays have a very nice selection of indie stuff, evne if there's still a lot more Marvel/DC superhero stuff. It's slow, but we are making progress.

[thecrazyd]

Oh, see, if you're trying to say that percentage-wise too much of comics is franchise stuff, I agree whole-heartedly. You're right on there. Thankfully we've got DC and Marvel (sort of) both trying new, non-superhero/non-franchise stuff in bigger amounts now than ever. Now it's just a matter of getting more people reading comics, which is something I'm always trying to do, mostly via Vertigo books.

Also, most comic shops nowadays have a very nice selection of indie stuff, evne if there's still a lot more Marvel/DC superhero stuff. It's slow, but we are making progress.
Hah! We are in agreement! I win!

[Dr.Finger]

I'm going to disagree with some of you. I like the long history many of these characters have.

When you think about it there have probably been more stories written about Batman and Superman that any other fictional character by far. Do they get stale and recycled at times? Sure, but that's why they change writers so often.

[Spigot]

Ooo... A Dan Slott mini? Sign me up.

I refuse to get between the D and Kef. It's too fun to watch the fireworks.
On the scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is Pure Evil and 10 is Pure Good - where does Deadpool stand?
And Deadpool ranks a Q on your scale. He's beyond good and evil. He's just pure awesome.

[thecrazyd]

I refuse to get between the D and Kef. It's too fun to watch the fireworks.
We already agreed. Do they even teach reading comprehension in Canada-land?

[Sazime]

We already agreed. Do they even teach reading comprehension in Canada-land?
No you did'n!

[Anthony W]

He's actually done serious before, and fairly well, in the Arkham Asylum mini I mentioned. Check it out.

Don't care that he has done serious before, I'm getting tired of Marvel's pretentious post 911 crap.

[Spigot]

We already agreed. Do they even teach reading comprehension in Canada-land?
Duh... Me no reed gud. Me obveeuslee sufer frum thred delai sindrom. Me stil think u fitings.

*Spigot slobbers on his shoes as he stares vacantly at the wall and wonders why the screen isn't refreshing*

[Savok]

Shouldn't there be an "eh?" at the end of that? :p

[Spigot]

Shouldn't there be an "eh?" at the end of that? :p
Shut up, ya hoser, before I come over there and beat you with my maple syrup covered hockey stick.

I'm going back to my igloo to make more mukluks out of my free range baby seals. Mukluk mukluk mukluk... That's such a fun word to say.

[Dylan McCrae]

This isn't news, news is the Fantastic Four line up changing for the first time since 1991! That's freakin' news. Awesome news!!! Why is that not on the front page?! Black Panther is part of the Fantastic Four, and its all going to be written by Dwayne (Justice League Unlimited) McDuffie!

I'm over Civil War news. Civil War news is on par with PS3 news. Same thing everytime, the guy in charge says something stupid to make the whole company look like retards, they announce a delay of some sort, make excuses, hate on their customers/fans and then announce some super new thingy that will most likely suck ad nauseam.

[Savok]

This isn't news, news is the Fantastic Four line up changing for the first time since 1991! That's freakin' news. Awesome news!!! Why is that not on the front page?! Black Panther is part of the Fantastic Four, and its all going to be written by Dwayne (Justice League Unlimited) McDuffie!
...

Huh?!

[Dylan McCrae]

Marvel Comics has just released the following image with a single question included, "Is this the new Fantastic Four?"

The image by Michael Turner features Johnny Storm (The Human Torch), Ben Grimm (The Thing), Storm and Black Panther and suggests that this is the new line-up for the team starting with March's "Fantastic Four" #544 following the conclusion of "Civil War," which tore apart the group. That issue is written by Dwayne McDuffie with art by Paul Pelletier.

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/4748/newffmm3.jpg

Whilst Civil War sucks, the stories coming out of it have been a rockin'!

[Savok]

Oh god Storm as well.

I officially despise Civil War.

[Spigot]

I'm over Civil War news. Civil War news is on par with PS3 news. Same thing everytime, the guy in charge says something stupid to make the whole company look like retards, they announce a delay of some sort, make excuses, hate on their customers/fans and then announce some super new thingy that will most likely suck ad nauseam.
That is the best analogy I've heard for Civil War.

If I wasn't already as invested in it as I am, I'd actually concider just dropping the anxilliary titles and moving on with my life. It's a shame how they took something with quite a lot of momentum behind it and ended up just bleeding it dry.

Sigh.

Just wake me when it's over.

[Savok]

Actually I think I'll go off on a rant here.

Now I haven't been reading comics all my life so what I'm about to go off about might be Marvel's bread and butter, I don't know, I just know I'm cranky

But increasingly, especially in the Ultimate universe, things are becoming more and more mindless, doing things for no other reason then making the fanboys go "OMG WTF?!".

The Liberators shit in the Ultimates... for many, many years, I watched wrestling (shut up, it was great once), WCW (before it turned into pure suck), WWF (I'll never call them WWE, fuck the wildlife). Those that know wrestling know about the dramas they like to play out, however the dramas always play out the same, unexpected entrances, betrayals at vital moments and eventually the heel (bad guy) getting what's coming to him.

Now for wrestling, this works just fine, you're there to watch large, oiled up men grapple each other, not for character depth. Comics on the other hand, you want characters, you want to read something interesting. Getting back to Ultimates, watching that whole battle play out (and looking back everything else in Ultimates) I could quite honestly hear a little JR and King commentating the whole thing in my head.

JR: Good God, King, this is a real slobberknocker, how are they are going to win this one?

King: I have no idea, JR. *high pitched ARRRGH*

JR: Vertical Suplex ther - what the? IT'S HULK!! GOOD GOD, GOOD GOD ALMIGHTY, HULK IS HERE AND... MY GOD THIS IS A SLAUGHTER!!

King: *high pitched ARRRGH*

JR: Victory seems assured here.. good god no, LOKI!... wait... my god it's THOR, THOR, THOR!!!!!!!!!!!

King: *high pitched ARRRGH*

And so it goes on.

Civil War is just a rotating door on every stable (group) which always appears when the company feels people are bored with the current story threads and a few wrestlers turn face/heel and maybe get a new gimmick. I mean shit, how many gigs has Wolverine had now? He was a fucking Horseman at one point for christ sake.

Nothing seems to be character driven, hell most seem to have broken character for Civil War, it purely exists for shock value alone, "Storm in F4?!? WTF?!". The Ultimate universe seems to have its foundations in this sort of thinking which only makes things worse, "Hulk just ate that guy, WTF?!".

Here's the thing Marvel doesn't seem to grasp, shock can only work if you give two shits about the characters.

[Heretic Machine]

Well, I love Marvel, and their comics have never been better. I've only been reading a few years, maybe that is the problem, but I don't see myself getting bored anytime soon.

[Kefkataran]

Don't care that he has done serious before, I'm getting tired of Marvel's pretentious post 911 crap.

Okay. Well, I'm not all about the jumping to conclusions about a book before we barely know anything about it besides that it's serious instead of humorous, so I'll wait and see.

This isn't news, news is the Fantastic Four line up changing for the first time since 1991! That's freakin' news. Awesome news!!! Why is that not on the front page?! Black Panther is part of the Fantastic Four, and its all going to be written by Dwayne (Justice League Unlimited) McDuffie!


The Fantastic Four line-up is ALWAYS changing it seems like. :p But still, you're right, Dwayne McDuffie taking over is going to be freakin' sweet hopefully. Especially since it'll supposedly be building on the stuff he did in Beyond. Awesome mini.

And Savok, you're right to point out that Civil War itself hasn't been especially (or enough) character-driven, but the books around it mostly (thankfully) have. Millar's not the best character-building guy, though, no doubt. Not even close.

[Sazime]

What's with Michael Turner getting so much work? Hasn't anyone caught on to him yet?

[Dylan McCrae]

Here's the thing Marvel doesn't seem to grasp, shock can only work if you give two shits about the characters.

Agreed. That is why the Fantastic Four thing will work, McDuffie is a huge Black Panther fan, and has wanted to write Fantastic Four for a very very very long time. How Ororo work within the team I don't know, thats got me quite interested, but at least they still have two Storms on the team right! :]

I'm really interested in how the FF villians will be handled now that they have a King on their team. Fighting Doom, Namor or even having a run in with Black Bolt will be a whole different kettle of fish. A run in with Doom is what I want to see, Black Panther is at his best taking on those types of villians or even heroes. Priest's Enemy of the State stories in Black Panther still remain some of my fav comic from all time. Seeing Black Panther out wit and take down Iron Man was brilliant...kinda like seeing Batman take down Superman. If you ever get the chance, check it out.

Back onto Civil War, as I said, I'm not a fan, but things like this new FF, Amazing Spidey and Omega Flight are keeping me somewhat interested in the Marvel Universe. This Intiative thing does nothing for me at this current point in time.

As for the Ultimate Universe, I'm in agreeance Savok, I lost interest long ago, I'll pick up that last issue of Ultimates to stare at Hitch's lovely art and thats about it. Though there is one exception within the Ultimate universe at the moment that I can't get enough of, Ultimate Fantastic Four, if you haven't checked out Carey's run, I highly encourage you too! Pascal Ferry's art is absolutely brilliant as well.

And Turner, I can't stand his work, I'm sure his a nice guy, but I really hate the work he churns out. Hopefully thats actually a cover for Black Panther, seeing as he has been doing alot of those. Paul is a much better artist and I'd rather se cover by him or ed McGuiness, seeing as Ed isn't doing much else right now.

[Kefkataran]

See, I'm a fan of the Ultimate U on the whole. Take Bendis's Ultimate Spidey. There's up and down arcs, sure, but one thing Bendis does right is that he spends a LOT of time making sure you care about Peter as a character and, more surprisingly and important, that you care about some of the other Ultimate Spidey cast (Aunt May and Jameson, most surprisingly) as characters.

[Dylan McCrae]

He spends a bit too much time on the characters, and just the characters, for my liking. Its possible to have things actually happening and still give the characters some room to shine. As you said though, up and down arcs, up and down issues I'd have no probems with, but whole arcs that are just crap with one or two good panels or even pages is a bit much to swallow. I agree that he does make you care about the characters, but the way he goes about it makes you careless about picking up another issue. Well it did for me anyhow. Each to their own. :]

[thecrazyd]

The thing about the new Fantastic Four team that annoys me is that you now have two strong guys, and two flight based energy characters. Also, two funny guys, and two serious characters. I dunno, just seems kinda redundant to me.

[Dylan McCrae]

Nah D, Storm isn't always serious, in battle yes, away from battle she is usually pretty chill. I actually wouldn't be surprised to see her join in on the pranking, raining on Johnny and Ben's parades everynow and then. Storm was also a sister to a lot of the Xmen, I wouldn't be surprised to see the same thing happen here. Instead of having Reed locked in his lab unaware of the happening on the team, you will now have T'Challa drawn away dealing with the issues a King must deal with.

The team/family dynamic hasn't shifted a great deal, its just the characters that have changed.

[Kefkataran]

He spends a bit too much time on the characters, and just the characters, for my liking. Its possible to have things actually happening and still give the characters some room to shine. As you said though, up and down arcs, up and down issues I'd have no probems with, but whole arcs that are just crap with one or two good panels or even pages is a bit much to swallow. I agree that he does make you care about the characters, but the way he goes about it makes you careless about picking up another issue. Well it did for me anyhow. Each to their own. :]

It might help that I read it in trades. :) I collect all the Ultimate stuff in trades. I'd probably go nuts collecting it in single issues.

The thing about the new Fantastic Four team that annoys me is that you now have two strong guys, and two flight based energy characters. Also, two funny guys, and two serious characters. I dunno, just seems kinda redundant to me.

Those are really broad generalizations, though. They don't actually say anything about the characters beyond their powers/general personalities.

[thecrazyd]

Those are really broad generalizations, though. They don't actually say anything about the characters beyond their powers/general personalities.
And I feel that their powers are redundant for a superhero team (I do not feel that I am experienced enough in their personalities to make a qualified judge, so I cede that point).

[Kefkataran]

And I feel that their powers are redundant for a superhero team (I do not feel that I am experienced enough in their personalities to make a qualified judge, so I cede that point).

Yeah, but most superhero powers are redundant in the long scheme of things. That's why the personality and the deeper stuff is actually what matters with the books. You wouldn't pick what book you're going to be based on what powers the characters have... unless the powers are, like, fucking goats or something. Because how could you ignore that, you know?

Also, it's worth pointing out that saying The Thing and Black Panther are just "two strong characters" is a bit deceptive. Thing has super-strength and is also kind of a freak because of it. Black Panther, IIRC, doesn't have any specific superpowers, but just is generally a good fighter. Maybe with enhanced senses or something too. Not even close to the same thing as the Thing though. And also Panther's royalty deal adds another layer of interest to the whole thing. I mean being a member of FF *while* trying to be king of a nation? Should prove to be interesting.

[Dr.Finger]

Don't worry d. The FF does change lineups a lot, but in the end they always go back to the original Four. I'd bet that Reed & Sue will be back on the team within a year.

Although I also confidently predicted that Jean Grey would be back to life by the time X3 came out so take my predictions with a grain of salt.

[Savok]

Jean Grey did come back to life. But she died again so quickly no one noticed.

[JimmyDanger]

Don't worry d. The FF does change lineups a lot, but in the end they always go back to the original Four. I'd bet that Reed & Sue will be back on the team within a year.


I don't doubt that (in fact I'd be willing to swear they'll be back in time for the FF2 movie) - But DMC is right on the money when he says there hasn't been a lineup change since 1991. I remember most of my childhood (mid Byrne run 80's) - from SheHulk - to Reed & Sue joining Avengers and Ms Marvel (not Carol Danvers - the wrestler Sharon redheaded one) and Crystal (who joined originally when Sue was pregnant in the sevs) - then Sharon becoming She-Thing - then of course the excellent 3 issue Art Adams Wolverine/Hulk/Spidey/Ghost Rider FF run - but it's been since then - oh wait - then Lyja the Skrull (or possibly the worst idea of all time) was kicking around Post Simonson (a fucking awesome run from old Walt) - but it's been stable since then.

Which has gotta be a fucking record amount of time in their entire histroy they haven't fucked with the lineup.

[Savok]

... Wolverine was in F4?

I'm going to have to kill someone now.

[Sazime]

... Wolverine was in F4?

I'm going to have to kill someone now.
Wolverine is everywhere... at once. But it's all memory implants, so no one really knows.

I love the character, but my god editors have just let writers run roughshod over him. Annoying as hell.

[Dylan McCrae]

You guys should read the Wolverine/Spidey/Hulk/Ghost Rider issues, they were actually pretty cool. They came back and actually fought the original Fantastic Four later on as well, think that was issue 373 or 374, its where Thing loses part of his face due to a slight beserker rage from Logan, and he starts wearing a funky Doom type mask.

So check those issues out that Jimmy mentioned, or perhaps some old Fantastic Four comics in general...because it doesn't seem like any of you have read any haha, and your missing out on alot of cool stuff. :]

[Kefkataran]

Who was the writer for that stuff, Dylan?