BC on the PS3: Life in a Jaggy World

[bapenguin]

There's an interesting video up on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoCD9TwLrVs) which shows side by side shots and video of the Playstation 3 running a Playstation 2 title and a Playstation 2 running a Playstation 2 title. The difference? The PS3 version is jiggy-jiggy-jaggalicious. Yes that's a real word.

Eeeek. You'd think they'd be able to apply SOME sort of post processing.

Thanks ____j____ for submitting this.

[Sion]

Sony is the Bush administration of video games.

[fitbabits]

Uh-oh, I'm outta here...

[Norse]

The Cell is nothing compared to the mighty Emotion Engine

[violentp]

Chucklelicious

[digitalErich]

Wow...I figured the video was just going to nit pick, but that is night and day.

[Esquilax1138]

Seing more bad news about Sony always puts a smile on my face. And those graphics looked absolutley fucking horrible, eyes-bleeding-bad type of stuff, and really washed out looking next to the PS2 version.

Still good for a laugh though!

[Kamalot]

This is too funny.

*sends it to friends*

[Johan]

Don't draw any conclusions yet! Everything you've seen, heard and read will...well, it will...uh, um, Sony's going to...

Oh hell...what a mess! ;)

I'll take my 'incomplete' 360 BC any day over that crap.

[Sandman]

I've had no problems looking at the PS2 games I've played on it so far. FFXII and Metal Gear Solid 3 both look as good to me as they did on PS2.

[Abednigo]

Holy cwap.

[EternalGamer]

Hopefully enough people will voice frustration that they will do something about this in the update. Otherwise, I might just go ahead and buy a slim line PS2 to replace the one I traded in towards my inevitable PS3 purchase.

[Kamalot]

Why is the color so different between the PS2 and PS3?

[Norse]

Is this somehow connected to the fact that the PS3 has no hw scaler?

[Camel]

I've had no problems looking at the PS2 games I've played on it so far. FFXII and Metal Gear Solid 3 both look as good to me as they did on PS2.
This comment is 1000x more significant to me than that video.

Any other PS3 owners (all 5 of you) have comments? I was going to put a winky face here so people didn't think I was trying to make fun of Sony (I'm not), but seriously...I think there's maybe five people. :)

[Karmakin]

There's a sizable difference in color display/contrast as well. The colors look much less defined on the PS3. They look more "accurate" but it makes the picture look dull.

[Kamalot]

I'll take my 'incomplete' 360 BC any day over that crap.
Agreed. I'm amazed how well the 360 upscales older games to 720 and applies anti-aliasing to them. It really makes a big difference.

This PS3 video is...just...wow.

[Kamalot]

There's a sizable difference in color display/contrast as well. The colors look much less defined on the PS3. They look more "accurate" but it makes the picture look dull.
In screen shots that compare cross-platform titles it looks like everything coming out of the PS3 is washed out. There is something about the contrast that makes all the screens seem 'flat' with very little contrast 'pop'. Is it a hardware issue?

[Atorak]

Well, it's official:

X360 BC > PS3 BC

[Sandman]

Honestly, I'll have to look at MGS3 again later tonight, but I didn't notice anything like they show in that video.

[momusak]

It could be that they decided against using a better Scaler/Deinterlacer in the PS3 because that would have increased the loss they are currently experiencing. What I don't understand is why isn't the Video Card doing the AA and scaling correctly or would it have given a huge performance hit? Hmmm

[RMan]

Well, the "jaggies" that are most visible are the direct result of the output resolution not being evenly divisible by the input resolution. If, for instance, you run a game made for 100 lines and output it on 150 lines (imaginary resolution, BTW) you’d have a pixel drawn on two pixels, then on one, then on two, which would cause uneven lines like those you see here. It’s possible that those not having problems with PS2 games on the PS3 are simply running on more compatible resolutions, but frankly, I’m not up to speed on HDTV resolutions and how the PS3 works with them, so someone else will have to chime in on the possibility of this.

[Chameleo]

i havent heard of this issue from any PS3 owners.... i think it might be a hardware/cable/TV thing....?

[agentgray]

Well, it's official:

X360 BC > PS3 BC
I think it's a toss up.

Wii BC = 360 BC = PS3 BC

1. Wii: You PAY for pre-'cube compatability
2. 360: Have you seen the list?
3. PS3: Washed out color and anti-aliasing jaggedness.

I would lean more towards the PS3 as being the best though. (GASP!) Why? Because most people are playing PS2 games on a TV that was not meant for it.

360 would be at the top, but they "underpromise and overdeliver"

[Suicidal ShiZuru]

Since when is YouTube an accurate source for shit like this? Or anything, really.

[Dag-Sabot]

... someone get the SDF on the line right now!

[motor]

This is bad, but I'd still rather have so-so graphics on everything then good graphhics on 10%. Plus this is actually easy to fix then bringing the 360 BC list up to 100%.

360 BC < PS3 BC

[Johan]

This comment is 1000x more significant to me than that video.

Seeing with your own eyes is less significant than someone's opinion? Sure, he owns it, but it's only verbal opinion unless you see it yourself. And no...it wouldn't matter to me who said it; I prefer my own eyes to someone else's.

That's interesting to me...and I couldn't disagree more with your point.

This is bad, but I'd still rather have so-so graphics on everything then good graphhics on 10%. Plus this is actually easy to fix then bringing the 360 BC list up to 100%.

360 BC < PS3 BC

I totally disagree. And you might want to check your 10% hyperbole there. You're off by a lot. A helluva lot.

[HalLoco]

Sony's handling of the PS3 is like watching a train wreak in slow motion. The more of this I see, the more I'm convinced that they pushed an incomplete and buggy PS3 out, just to have something for the holiday season. They knew that if they didn't release this year before the holidays, they would be dead in the water, ergo pushing out a buggy PS3 is better than not pushing out a PS3 at all.

[Busted_Astromech]

Well, the "jaggies" that are most visible are the direct result of the output resolution not being evenly divisible by the input resolution. If, for instance, you run a game made for 100 lines and output it on 150 lines (imaginary resolution, BTW) you’d have a pixel drawn on two pixels, then on one, then on two, which would cause uneven lines like those you see here. It’s possible that those not having problems with PS2 games on the PS3 are simply running on more compatible resolutions, but frankly, I’m not up to speed on HDTV resolutions and how the PS3 works with them, so someone else will have to chime in on the possibility of this.
I don't know, they say at the discussion forum (http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=ps3&thread.id=808212&view=by_date_ascending&page=1) that it happens on non-HDTVs as well.
It seems to have something to do with progressive scanning; games that support it can exhibit these terrible symptoms if progressive scan is turned off but look fine if turned on. It seems to happen with certain combinations of cables and resolutions, so it must be some weird problem with detecting what signal it should be sending out, I presume.

I don't know what's up with the color, though; that may be because of the cables and how the signal is sent through them. I know the 360 gets different color through VGA and component cables.

[RMan]

Seeing with your own eyes is less significant than someone's opinion?
I'd say both are pretty similar, the problem with the video is that it clearly intends to bash the PS3. It's quite possible that, either on purpose or by accident, they are showing the PS3 in the worst possible light (which is certainly what I'd assume by the comments in the video) and the problems presented are either uncommon or easily circumvented.

[EternalGamer]

I do hope Sony fixes this problem, but those of you saying the 360 has better backwards compatibility are out of your mind. Have you actually tried to play old Xbox games on your 360? Even many the ones that crappy small little list have problems with locking up and chunky framerates. All of SIX of the 25 or so Xbox games I own work on my 360 and many of those work really crappily. I'll take 97% backwards compatibility with jaggies over that any damn day.

[Sandman]

I'd say both are pretty similar, the problem with the video is that it clearly intends to bash the PS3. It's quite possible that, either on purpose or by accident, they are showing the PS3 in the worst possible light (which is certainly what I'd assume by the comments in the video) and the problems presented are either uncommon or easily circumvented.

Agreed, and given the tone of the video I almost wouldn't put it past the creator to do a little touch up of the PS3 images knowing how few people would be able to confirm or deny how valid it is. And like I said before I'd have to double check with MGS3 tonight, but I think I would have noticed something like that.

[Camel]

Seeing with your own eyes is less significant than someone's opinion? Sure, he owns it, but it's only verbal opinion unless you see it yourself. And no...it wouldn't matter to me who said it; I prefer my own eyes to someone else's.

That's interesting to me...and I couldn't disagree more with your point.

Sandman is someone who cares about "the original experience." I mean, the man bought Valkyrie Profile for way more (WAY more) than it's worth just so he could play it on a PS1. I think if the games he was playing looked significantly worse, he would know it.

The main reason I like EvAv is because I trust the opinions of a lot of people on this site...I've pretty much stopped looking at review sites altogether and instead look for impressions and things here. Out of everyone who has posted in this thread, Sandman is probably the ONLY one who has seen the difference with his own eyes. If I had to trust a youtube video, or Sandman's firsthand impressions, I will pick Sandman 10 times out of 10.

And people who are saying the 360's BC is better than the PS3's BC are INSANE. I am looking at my XBOX right now...the fact that I still own the thing, despite having a superior machine capable of playing its games, is reason enough for me that the PS3 has better BC.

[Evil Avnovice]

My God! :eek: that's jagger-rific.

Already there were BC-compatible games with audio/framerate issues. How many will come with jaggies?

Wonder when someone will try PSOne games in the same fashion....

[silv]

Almost assuredly is due to the internal rendering resolution vs. the resolution outputted to the TV. Since it doesn't render in the actual TV resolution like the 360 does but instead relies on upscaling, there are going to be some ugly ugly ugly jaggies unless they increase the amount of horsepower they are willing to spend and apply some level of filtering.

[Kamalot]

Agreed, and given the tone of the video I almost wouldn't put it past the creator to do a little touch up of the PS3 images knowing how few people would be able to confirm or deny how valid it is. And like I said before I'd have to double check with MGS3 tonight, but I think I would have noticed something like that.

Set up your camera on a tripod. Play the game on your PS3, then play it again on your PS2. You can even do the same split-screen thing when you edit the footage.

I'd love to see a few Evil Avatar versions of this video as well. I find it difficult to imagine that anyone could make this up though. How could you make a PS2 game more jaggy on purpose?

[Mr.Condescension]

This is most likely a good example of the PS3 not being set to output in 480i/p on the PS3 (as in, unchecking 720p,1080i,1080p,etc.). You don't want the PS3 trying to scale the 480i game to your HDTV resolution. You want the TV to scale the 480 line original resolution. It's probably just the PS3 doing some stupid scaling instead of outputting the game's resolution to the TV and letting it handle it. That's my best guess.

[mkelehan]

Yikes. I'll take the 360's quality over the PS3's quantity of BC any day.This is most likely a good example of the PS3 not being set to output in 480i/p on the PS3 (as in, unchecking 720p,1080i,1080p,etc.). You don't want the PS3 trying to scale the 480i game to your HDTV resolution. You want the TV to scale the 480 line original resolution. It's probably just the PS3 doing some stupid scaling instead of outputting the game's resolution to the TV and letting it handle it. That's my best guess.The PS3 outputs all PS2 games in 480i, regardless of your settings. Since my TV displays 480i like crap, I'd way prefer upscaled with jaggies to this.

[t3g]

Even though the list is limited, I love how the Xbox 360 upscales Xbox 1 games to 720p and 1080i. I don't have a 1080p TV, but I am assuming it upscales to whatever resolution you have it set.

[BrokenSymmetry]

About the 360 BC: Yes the lack of many great titles on the BC list is infuriating, but those titles that work well under the 360 BC look incredible on my HDTV. Games like Sands of Time, Halo 1&2, Jade Empire, Fable, Ninja Gaiden, etc. look much, much better than they ever looked on my old XBox.

[Johan]

I'm not happy with the 360's BC, and I give them shit in other threads on the topic all the time. However, over 50% of my collection works, and looks quite good, too.

I would much rather totally enjoy 50%, as opposed to what I see happening with the PS3, with sound and visual issues. Sacrificing a few titles to have a great experience with the others is better, to me, than having nearly all of them and spreading out the problems across more of them.

[IrishWhiskey]

Originally Posted by Camel
This comment is 1000x more significant to me than that video.

Well let's see if this comment is worth just as much.

My friend down the street owns three PS3s. Yes. Three. And I've gotten quite a lot of hands on with it.

One of the things I did when we were first messing around with it is to try switching between with PS2 and the PS3. He and I both owned Disgea and GTA: San Andreas, and with both put in and turned on we compared. We also switched for a few others.

To be frank, there wasn't a huge difference on a number of games, not to the extent I saw in the video, but the PS3 definately looked worse than the PS2. Jaggies were the primary culprits, in some cases really badly, other times not so much. Disgea simply looked like ass on the PS3. It really broke my heart to see it look worse than SNES graphics. The giant pixels.... Shudder.


The reason I wanted to do this instead of playing more of the Motorstorm demo is because I remember when I first hooked my PS2 up to my Sony A2000. I was expected HD to show me more detail in old games, and instead it scarred me. When I heard that the PS3 didn't upconvert or apply any antialiasing or other effects to PS2 games, I called this exact situation. Sooo... sucks to be right.


What does this really mean? Well for me, they might as well not have BC at all. If old games look better on the PS2, and I can keep playing Guitar Hero, and it uses less power, then I am definately going to keep my slimline PS2 around, even if I get a PS3.

I've rightly called out Microsoft for their slow BC updates, but I would far rather have games like Halo 2 and Jade Empire looking far better than before on the 360, than have more titles, but worse looking than the Xbox. Keep in mind, almost everyone has a PS2 already. So this is hardly a deathnell, but its one less reason to get a PS3. Not a critical reason, but it still matters.



.

[RMan]

How could you make a PS2 game more jaggy on purpose?
Again, it's entirely resolution dependant. You can test the same effect in any paint program, take a 640x480 image and resize it to 800x480, you will see precisely the same artifacts you see in the video. Take the same image and resize to 1280x480 or 1280x960 and you will not. You can make it look bad simply by picking the least compliant target resolution.

[Sandman]

Set up your camera on a tripod. Play the game on your PS3, then play it again on your PS2. You can even do the same split-screen thing when you edit the footage.

I'd love to see a few Evil Avatar versions of this video as well. I find it difficult to imagine that anyone could make this up though. How could you make a PS2 game more jaggy on purpose?

I don't have a PS2 to compare the quality but I can take a pic of the same shots on my cell phone from the PS3 tonight. I'm pretty sure I would have noticed some jaggys like that when I was playing MGS3 this weekend. I must add though that I didn't try to start the game up in anything above 480i with 4:3 screen setting. I keep my PS3 in that mode for PS1/2 games and mp4 videos.

[MrE]

Looks like a Scaler problem to me. They probably opted for a cheaper part figuring that most people interested in the PS3 would spend far less time playing PS2 games on it. Still jaggies = yuk.

-E

[the soUL TRAder]

Concidering MS has to write a huge check to Nvidia everytime they make a group of games BC, I think they have "OP, UD"d.
Sony has access to their games library scot-free, and decided to spend very few resources to deliver what MS can't, even though Sony will certainly take stabs at MS for their BC problems.

On top of it all, Sony Apologists want to say that's "ok".
Wow, precious.

Of course, even knowing this, no one can claim MS has "won" on BC, but it's not as much of a "loss" as it was before.

[rein]

When did everyone at Evilavatar decide backward compatibility was a big deal? The times are changing.

Like Sandman, I have played a few PS2 and PS games on the PS3 and it hasn't been a problem. At least no more a problem than playing games on the PS2 connected to the HD set.

I would much rather have the BC of the PS3 vs the 360. It's nice to pull a game out of the stack and be pretty damn sure it is going to work instead of hoping and having to look it up.

Seeing with your own eyes is less significant than someone's opinion? Sure, he owns it, but it's only verbal opinion unless you see it yourself. And no...it wouldn't matter to me who said it; I prefer my own eyes to someone else's.

Did you forget that the video was on Youtube?

I have seen it with my own eyes in person on my television set in a controlled environment. I'm not going to drag the PS2 back in here to run them side by side, but I will be damned if I notice much difference when playing a game on the PS3. Maybe there is a difference, if so, it has not made playing FFXII or any other game any less fun on the PS3 for me. Now if I could play Morrowind on the 360. That would be nice.

[Johan]

What does this really mean? Well for me, they might as well not have BC at all...

I've rightly called out Microsoft for their slow BC updates, but I would far rather have games like Halo 2 and Jade Empire looking far better than before on the 360, than have more titles, but worse looking than the Xbox

And that was exactly my point a few posts above.

And IrishWhiskey's differing firsthand opinion, from rein and others, also reinforces why I like to see with my own eyes.

Good post IrishWhiskey. Logical, clear, and decidedly un-hateful. Just the facts.

[Johan]

Concidering MS has to write a huge check to Nvidia everytime they make a group of games BC, I think they have "OP, UD"d.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but if MS was paying licensing fees, BC emulation would be unnecessary...right? They could have put the hardware in there, rather than emulate.

MS isn't paying a licensing fee, which is why they have to emulate.

Someone set this straight! Or did I just do it? :confused:

[Camel]

Well let's see if this comment is worth just as much.

Why...why does he own three PS3's? :eek:

And like I said, comments like yoursmean more to me than that video. My opinion used to be, "PS3 BC is great...I can play old PS2 games!" Now my opinion is, "PS3 BC makes games look a little worse, which is disappointing since the 360 often does the exact opposite. But I can still play old PS2 games!"

BC is important to me because it means I can get rid of an old system and not worry about having a pile of games that I can only use as coasters. If the difference is slight in most cases (and still taking Sandman's comment into consideration, only really noticeable when viewed side to side with the original running on a PS2), then I am OK with that. BC is only important to me to play all-time favorites (I've played Chrono Cross many a time on my PS2) and to finish up the games I still want to play from the old system. After a year or so it doesn't really matter anymore.

[wezlypipz]

This is the only side by side comparison I've seen so far, I guess we'll have to wait for more.

Based on what I saw, this is a huge dissapointment. I will be playing my PSX and PS2 games for years to come and quite frankly, this is not cool.

[bapenguin]

This is most likely a good example of the PS3 not being set to output in 480i/p on the PS3 (as in, unchecking 720p,1080i,1080p,etc.). You don't want the PS3 trying to scale the 480i game to your HDTV resolution. You want the TV to scale the 480 line original resolution. It's probably just the PS3 doing some stupid scaling instead of outputting the game's resolution to the TV and letting it handle it. That's my best guess.

PS3 doesn't scale anything, it only outputs at native resolution. Hence it's outputting that game at 480i/p.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Honestly, I'll have to look at MGS3 again later tonight, but I didn't notice anything like they show in that video.

How big is your TV?

[Kamalot]

If the difference is slight in most cases (and still taking Sandman's comment into consideration, only really noticeable when viewed side to side with the original running on a PS2), then I am OK with that.
Interesting note: Most people can only tell the difference in HDTV and Standard Definition TV when shown the difference side-by-side. If you are okay with a visual downgrade where it is only noticable when compared to the original, wouldn't most people be happy sticking with SDTV?

[KidCactus]

PS3 doesn't scale anything, it only outputs at native resolution. Hence it's outputting that game at 480i/p.
Then I just can't figure out why there would be a difference in picture quality with jaggies on the PS3? Shouldn't it be the same signal from both the PS2 and the PS3?

[Kamalot]

Then I just can't figure out why there would be a difference in picture quality with jaggies on the PS3? Shouldn't it be the same signal from both the PS2 and the PS3?
I think it SHOULD be the same signal, but apparently, Sony thinks differently about this issue.

I'm fairly baffled by this too. How could someone even begin to fake this? How do you make a PS2 game look worse?

[rein]

And that was exactly my point a few posts above.

And IrishWhiskey's differing firsthand opinion, from rein and others, also reinforces why I like to see with my own eyes.

Good post IrishWhiskey. Logical, clear, and decidedly un-hateful. Just the facts.

I have not played a lot of PS2 games on the PS3, mostly FFXII. It does not look significantly worse to me. If it does to someone else, great eye. I even said it could look worse but that has not made the game any less fun for me. I'm sorry if an insignificant decrease in visual quality does not ruin a game for me. I was only saying I feel differently about the backward compatibility. I prefer that more games are playable so that I do not have to do research before buying a bargain game.

I have a 360 and I am basing my opinions on my wants. I hardly bother with the BC on it because it is a pain in the ass. You have to know if the game is going to work or not before you buy it.

[Sandman]

Well let's see if this comment is worth just as much.

My friend down the street owns three PS3s. Yes. Three. And I've gotten quite a lot of hands on with it.

Thats the only problem I have with your comment.....seems a little shady that it's your friend down the street and somehow he owns 3.

How big is your TV?

It's a 27" Samsung CRT set that outputs 720p and 1080i nativly.

[TheFlyingOrc]

I think it SHOULD be the same signal, but apparently, Sony thinks differently about this issue.

I'm fairly baffled by this too. How could someone even begin to fake this? How do you make a PS2 game look worse?

If someone GOOD did it, I GUESS it could be faked - But the fact that they were able to do the split screen like that is decently difficult if you don't leave the camera and television immobile, implying that it is the same television.

The only thing I'm coming up with is that they could have lied and used composite or S video cables for the PS3 - If they pruposefully stretched out the TV resolution to screw it up, it shouldn't line up so well.

[the soUL TRAder]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but if MS was paying licensing fees, BC emulation would be unnecessary...right? They could have put the hardware in there, rather than emulate.

MS isn't paying a licensing fee, which is why they have to emulate.

Someone set this straight! Or did I just do it? :confused:

Well, I can't clarify, since I've never seen the actual contract.
But, since MS was trying to "break into gaming" the contracts they signed for xbox1 were archaic. Nvidia owns more of the xbox1 games than MS does, and they won't just let MS emulate them for an ATI product w/o getting some royalties.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=9562

[TheFlyingOrc]

It's a 27" Samsung CRT set that outputs 720p and 1080i nativly.

I'm not saying this is the case, but 27 inches MIGHT be small enough(not that there's anything wrong with a 27"-it's a good size, just not a BIG tv) to make the jaggies a lot less noticable in comparison with a larger television. Everything looks better smaller.

[Reanimated]

Jesus christ what a disaster. How is it that they had an extra year to work on all of this stuff and still managed to get everything absolutely wrong?

[51|RandoM]

Well, it's official:

X360 BC > PS3 BC

Obviously, since not being able to play a game at all is infinitely better than being able to play a game without antialiasing.


/boggle

[Camel]

Interesting note: Most people can only tell the difference in HDTV and Standard Definition TV when shown the difference side-by-side. If you are okay with a visual downgrade where it is only noticable when compared to the original, wouldn't most people be happy sticking with SDTV?
Most people do not own HDTVs (now whether or not they are happy with that is another story).

I don't own a HDTV either. I play my 360 on my computer monitor, and when I went home for Thanksgiving and played Viva Pinata on my parents' SDTV, I could hardly read the text. With some 360 games (Dead Rising being my other example), HD makes a world of difference. With PS2 games? I will happily take a slight decrease in quality that I probably don't notice unless I do side-by-side comparisons if it means I only have to keep one system. BC is just the icing on the cake if you're going to buy a new console (although I think it plays a huge role in whether or not you want to be an early adopter or not..at least for me), and I would much rather have a cake with dull white icing as opposed to a cake that is only half covered but looks great.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Obviously, since not being able to play a game at all is infinitely better than being able to play a game without antialiasing.


/boggle

Goodness, it can be - I don't care about good graphics, but bad graphics are distracting.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Most people do not own HDTVs (now whether or not they are happy with that is another story).

Stuff about SD vs HD blah blah blah

I actually preferred RE4 on a smaller television. I was very disappointed when I got my 42" and the picture quality went down. Component cables help, though.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Sony is the Bush administration of video games.

Yeah, let's drag politics into a video game discussion. That sounds fun.

[51|RandoM]

Goodness, it can be - I don't care about good graphics, but bad graphics are distracting.

I didn't see bad graphics. Looking at the side by side FF video, I'd have no problem playing either.

People sure do like to blow shit way out of proportion around here.

If 360 bc supports the game you want to play, then obviously it is better than ps3 emulation(which isn't emulation). But if it won't play the game at all you're shit out of luck, now aren't you?


Go back and watch that youtube video, but sit a foot farther away from your monitor. :p

[Virtual Machine]

Noticed no difference whatsoever with FFXII, Bully, or Freedom Fighters. NONE, ZIP, ZERO. And i'm one scrutinizing bastard. I won't be buying a console until it does upscaling on older titles.

Put me into the "i prefer the 360's BC" camp - Black, Doom 3, Halo 1 and 2, KOTOR 1 and 2, Jade Empire, and Prince of Persia all look a hell of a lot nicer when played on the 360 - now if only i could play Brothers in Arms 1 and 2 or Driver 3 and Driver: Parallel Lines, i think i'd part with my old Xbox altogether (don't give me shit about Driver please, it's a guilty pleasure ;) )

[Atorak]

Obviously, since not being able to play a game at all is infinitely better than being able to play a game without antialiasing.


/boggle

Sarcasm, anyone? Yikes...


I don't own a PS3, and I don't plan on buying one. I own original Xbox games, but I have no interest in playing any of them on my X360. The only game I ever have played was Halo 2, and that looked great. The only game from original Xbox that I wish worked on my X360 is NCAA Football 07'. But it's a slim to none chance that EA will allow Microsoft to enable BC on a game that is on both of Microsoft's platforms. Oh, and the Xbox one has more features AND is $20 less than the X360 one.

I've been waiting for a Wii forever, and I'm sure i'll pick up some of those BC titles for nostalgia purposes. But frankly, their prices seem a little high.

I completely agree with agentgray. The Wii's BC list lhas some nice titles, but it's expensive. The X360's BC list is short but is the most "next-generation". The PS3's BC list is the most complete, but has issues as stated above.

As for which one is the best? I'm leaning towards "who cares"? The more titles available for purchase the better for the consumer, so long as the price is right and the bugs get worked out.

[Morratut]

Lol only Sony could make the shitty graphics of a PS2 worse.

[Hagetaka]

Since when is YouTube an accurate source for shit like this? Or anything, really.

Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner.

One might imagine that if this was really such a problem, that someone much more reputable than YouTube would have noticed first. YouTube is full of Fanboyism; have you seen the Wii vs PS3 video and read its comments? Jesus Christ, I have never heard such biased blather in such a strong concentration before.

I am not shutting this down, but I'd like to hear it from someone who has played the BC PS2 games.

EDIT: Upon further review... Yikes, I guess this really is the case. Can't say im surprised. This is the sort of neglegence I have come to expect from Sony. Thanks for not letting me down Sony.

[Tyrant]

I tried out Shadow of the Colossus on my PS3 a few days ago and noticed it looked markedly worse than on my PS2. So I read through the Playstation forum thread a few days ago and as posted a little bit down the page here (http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=ps3&thread.id=808212&view=by_date_ascending&page=12), there seems to be an issue of pixel flipping as it were.

[J Arcane]

Ugg. The Virtual Console is not "backwards compatibility".

The ability to stick your Gamecube disks into the drive is BC, and I might add, entirely free, and so far seems to be problem free. If you could stick actual SNES cartridges into the Wii, that would be BC.

VC is an added component on the order of XBLA, and should be judged on the same criteria.

And last I knew, Genesis and TG-16 weren't Nintendo systems. It's kinda hard to call it BC when you're talking about systems Nintendo never made or supported in the first place.

Unless you're telling me Galaga on the 360 qualifies as "backward compatibility".

[Disgustipated]

Noticed no difference whatsoever with FFXII, Bully, or Freedom Fighters. NONE, ZIP, ZERO. And i'm one scrutinizing bastard. I won't be buying a console until it does upscaling on older titles.

Put me into the "i prefer the 360's BC" camp - Black, Doom 3, Halo 1 and 2, KOTOR 1 and 2, Jade Empire, and Prince of Persia all look a hell of a lot nicer when played on the 360 - now if only i could play Brothers in Arms 1 and 2 or Driver 3 and Driver: Parallel Lines, i think i'd part with my old Xbox altogether (don't give me shit about Driver please, it's a guilty pleasure ;) )

I'm guessing Black would look fantastic at 720P/1080i/p. Wish they woulda released it on PC, it seemed like an awesome shooter. Black 2, anyone?

[Captain Awesome]

Uh-oh, I'm outta here...
hahaha, thanks


Sony is the Bush administration of video games.
Sony does not care about Anti-Aliasing?

[Shandor]

The only PS2 game I've played on my PS3 so far is Final Fantasy 12. And yeah, it definately looks worse on the PS3. Way more jaggies and shimmering. I'm hoping that Sony fixes this issue with a firmware update. It's not so bad that I wouldn't play the game, but it is definately distracting.

[J Arcane]

I'm guessing Black would look fantastic at 720P/1080i/p. Wish they woulda released it on PC, it seemed like an awesome shooter. Black 2, anyone?
Black was OK, but the enemy difficulty was just plain stupid. They had little to no AI or any other way to make them challenging, so their solution was just to make even the lowliest of soldiers nigh invincible. Every random thug takes a whole clip or more to take out.

Many jokes were made among my friends about bulletproof ski masks.

[silv]

The confusing thing, is that this is the same TV. So the PS2 can obviously render the correct output, and the PS3 can't. So unless the PS3 is trying to render in a rez above 480p, I don't see why this would happen.

I.E. it's not a TV capability issue, as the PS2 is obviously outputting a 480p signal and it looks fine.

[Poewan]

I did notice a certain artifacts, jaggies, and overall degradation on my PS3 with PS2 games, and to varying degrees depending on the game. But even in the worst case scenario, it remained very marginal. Nothing I cant live with, it far from destroys the game.

What really bugs me tough, is the fact that PLII dosent work on the PS3. Now, that's something that annoys the bloody hell out of me. Its the only reason I still got my PS2 plugged in.

[_j_]

The only PS2 game I've played on my PS3 so far is Final Fantasy 12. And yeah, it definately looks worse on the PS3. Way more jaggies and shimmering. I'm hoping that Sony fixes this issue with a firmware update.

There are rumors that Sony are thinking about returning to their original plan of trying to write a software emulator to run the PS2 games (just like the 360 does). Then you probably could get issues fixed and games rendering upscaled to look nice (just like those Xbox 1 games on Xbox 360) but don't expect it any time soon. Probably at least a couple of years from now on until they have such emulator running and shippable ...

[jeffool]

I'll take 97% backwards compatibility with jaggies over that any damn day.Amen. Wii has apparently scored a touchdown, PS3 fumbled the ball, and X360 punted the ball three yards on the first down.Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but if MS was paying licensing fees, BC emulation would be unnecessary...right?Wrong, sir.They could have put the hardware in there, rather than emulate.

MS isn't paying a licensing fee, which is why they have to emulate.

Someone set this straight! Or did I just do it? :confused:A graphics card isn't just the hardware, but the software running on it. And graphics card companies are smart enough to sign contracts stating they own everything about that chip, from the design to the execution of instructions. Long story made simple, Microsoft is paying to license the ability to mimic Nvidia's Xbox1 specific instructions. It's far cheaper than actually having them supply the chips, though.

At least, it's something like that.

[jadkins555]

Amen. Wii has apparently scored a touchdown, PS3 fumbled the ball, and X360 punted the ball three yards on the first down.Wrong, sir.A graphics card isn't just the hardware, but the software running on it. And graphics card companies are smart enough to sign contracts stating they own everything about that chip, from the design to the execution of instructions. Long story made simple, Microsoft is paying to license the ability to mimic Nvidia's Xbox1 specific instructions. It's far cheaper than actually having them supply the chips, though.

At least, it's something like that.

So the only way to really get around it is if Microsoft had still partnered with Nvidia instead of dropping them for ATI?

[Tyrant]

Unless MS decided to also toss in a Celeron with the 360, they'd still have to emulate CPU functions.

[Captain Awesome]

A graphics card isn't just the hardware, but the software running on it. And graphics card companies are smart enough to sign contracts stating they own everything about that chip, from the design to the execution of instructions. Long story made simple, Microsoft is paying to license the ability to mimic Nvidia's Xbox1 specific instructions. It's far cheaper than actually having them supply the chips, though.

At least, it's something like that.


What the fuck are you talking about?

[Voodoo]

Ok, ok... After going through many pages and not seeing it asked I thought I would ask myself...

Is there any game on the PS3 yet that is a "must have" title? Sure you can fight backwards compatibility but the point makes no sense when the reason of owning a PS3 seems to escape me.

[Heart Grenade]

Frankly, it looks like crap on both consoles.

[rein]

Ok, ok... After going through many pages and not seeing it asked I thought I would ask myself...

Is there any game on the PS3 yet that is a "must have" title? Sure you can fight backwards compatibility but the point makes no sense when the reason of owning a PS3 seems to escape me.

It might be because we are talking about BC in this thread and not the PS3's launch line-up. God forbid one Sony thread exist without someone attempting to discredit the launch line-up. :rolleyes:

Yes, there are games other than Resistance worth owning of you do not leave out non-exclusives.

[Grimmjow]

Don't draw any conclusions yet! Everything you've seen, heard and read will...well, it will...uh, um, Sony's going to...

Oh hell...what a mess! ;)

I'll take my 'incomplete' 360 BC any day over that crap.

interesting, when i played FF12 it looked the same as it did on my ps2. Someone else also mentioned the same thing. Could possibly be a TV thing who knows! but i will have to say, im happy just being able to play my Ps2 games and what not then to have MS select them for the library they have. So my 2cents *BOO TO YOU X360 BC* and im out!!

[Tyrant]

I noticed that people with CRTs or those who are using composite or s-video cables seem to experience the issue to a much lesser degree/they don't see it unless they really look for it.

Are you using a CRT and/or the above mentioned cables G35?

[Voodoo]

It might be because we are talking about BC in this thread and not the PS3's launch line-up. God forbid one Sony thread exist without someone attempting to discredit the launch line-up. :rolleyes:

Yes, there are games other than Resistance worth owning of you do not leave out non-exclusives.Ahh, ok makes sense now. Well from the sound of things the fix to this from Sony would be coming in the form of a firmware/software update. I definitely don't think the current PS3 BC situation will be the same in a few months.

[Kamalot]

I would much rather have a cake with dull white icing as opposed to a cake that is only half covered but looks great.
I don't plan on eating an entire cake. ;)

And I would rather have less of a fantastic tasting cake instead of an entire cake that was covered in sharp, jaggy edges! :O

[IrishWhiskey]

Originally Posted by IrishWhiskey
My friend down the street owns three PS3s. Yes. Three. And I've gotten quite a lot of hands on with it.
Originally Posted by Sandman
Thats the only problem I have with your comment.....seems a little shady that it's your friend down the street and somehow he owns 3.

Its true. I mean, why would I insert an unbelievable detail like that without a reason? He has three, without once camping out to get one. The first he got through a pre-order, the next two through web contests, the details of which are still vague to me. Although he's opened one, he plans on selling all three just before Christmas, when he figures demand will be greatest. I urged him to sell at least one just after launch when they were selling for thousands, but he's holding out.

And just to clarify my previous statement, I agree with some of the Sony defenders that on some games there wasn't a big difference. But on older games that don't support prog scan, and some that do, there was a huge difference. And its definately true that a smaller CRT with a good scaler will show lower rez games much better. But on a 60 inch 1080p LCD TV... Yuck.


Now most consumers don't have that, which, like I said, means this isn't the biggest deal in the world. But even on the smaller monitor my friend uses, there were very noticeable differences in Jaggies.

This means that the PS3 isn't ruined for BC for most owners, but in every situation, I would recommend hanging onto your PS2 both for GH and better visuals. And like I said, for me this means I completely discount the PS3s BC, as most owners will already have a PS2, and now have reason to hang onto it.


I guess the point of my earlier post is that the YouTube video is plausible, and I personally have seen worse quality on the PS3. Now, that video might also have used different settings, or even the composite cable that came with the PS3, and so it might not be as bad as it seems, but I wouldn't throw away the PS2 just yet.



.

[Camel]

I don't plan on eating an entire cake. ;)

And I would rather have less of a fantastic tasting cake instead of an entire cake that was covered in sharp, jaggy edges! :O
Haha I was actually trying to figure out a way to incorporate jaggy edges into my cake analogy and couldn't figure out a way to do it without completely ruining my point. Let's just agree that the PS3 and 360 have both made shitty cakes. :D

[_j_]

I noticed that people with CRTs ... seem to experience the issue to a much lesser degree

CRT = free antialiaser (not perfect but still working) ... :)

[Kamalot]

Haha I was actually trying to figure out a way to incorporate jaggy edges into my cake analogy and couldn't figure out a way to do it without completely ruining my point. Let's just agree that the PS3 and 360 have both made shitty cakes. :D
Hmm. If only you could have your console, and eat it too!

[f1sh3r]

who cares? you've already played these games. buy some new ones and quit whining about jaggies or incomplete lists.

[saulob]

Wow...I figured the video was just going to nit pick, but that is night and day.

night and day all the way.

ouch. sony.

[Hitoriga]

I have been wondering what the hell was happening. I am pretty sure the problem will be patched eventually, but for now, the way I usually solve it is playing on a smaller CRT television. It works quite well, but still not enough. I have to admit it is very annoying, because I am a graphics whore, but the games that support the progressive scanning almost completely eliminates the problem, so my Soul Calibur III plays almost fine. Hopefully, they fully fix this problem so I can play my games normally again.

[Grimmjow]

I noticed that people with CRTs or those who are using composite or s-video cables seem to experience the issue to a much lesser degree/they don't see it unless they really look for it.

Are you using a CRT and/or the above mentioned cables G35?

I'm using composite on this busted ass CRT I got

[crackeriah]

No one seems to have mentioned this yet:
IT'S JUST POOR-MAN'S ANTIALIASING.

The PS3 was using HDMI (digital), the PS2 was using component (analog). What you see from the PS3 is exactly what the game is rendering. What you see from the PS2 is the image after it has been changed by the PS2's digital-to-analog converter, blurred by the component cables, and changed again by the LCD TV's analog-to-digital converter and filters. In this case, HDMI shows you just how crappy your old games look.

I'm as much of a PS3 hater as the next guy, but this is BS.

[Dracula-X]

Jaggies don't bother me.

However, this might be a bug of sorts, perhaps an endian (for the programmer types) issue, where pairs of pixels are exhibiting the problem.

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/9195/ff1202ps2wb7.jpg
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/7340/ff1202ps3ag8.jpg

You can clearly see it best with the letter N in Enix, where the problem manifests as a stripe. Swap those pixels and the problem is no longer there.

If this is indeed the case, hopefully they can resolve this with a firmware update.

[Grimmjow]

No one seems to have mentioned this yet:
IT'S JUST POOR-MAN'S ANTI ALIASING.

The PS3 was using HDMI (digital), the PS2 was using component (analog). What you see from the PS3 is exactly what the game is rendering. What you see from the PS2 is the image after it has been changed by the PS2's digital-to-analog converter, blurred by the component cables, and changed again by the LCD TV's analog-to-digital converter and filters. In this case, HDMI shows you just how crappy your old games look.

I'm as much of a PS3 hater as the next guy, but this is BS.

you sir, gets 2 thumbs up from me, that actually makes sense. (not being sarcastic either)

[KingGorilla]

I've had no problems looking at the PS2 games I've played on it so far. FFXII and Metal Gear Solid 3 both look as good to me as they did on PS2.
When I saw the title of the thread I thought "You mean 10+ year old games look like crap on HD?" No shit? I do not doubt games made on the PS2 later, that were made with HD in mind are as much of an issue of first gen PS2 and PS1 games are.

[crackeriah]

However, this might be a bug of sorts, perhaps an endian (for the programmer types) issue, where pairs of pixels are exhibiting the problem.

Okay, maybe there is some "pixel flipping" going on. Naughty, naughty Sony. (Probably not endian-related, though, as that would completely change all the color values.) However, I still think this is just what happens when you move from analog to digital. Broadcasters, DVD producers and game companies have long relied on analog blur to clean up their signals. A lot of early DVD's had visible compression artifacts when played on a computer, but not on TV...

[JG_ZERO]

I have the exact same issues when playing MGS and other games on PS3. I had to hook back up my PS2 just to play some FF12 without it looking even jaggier than usual. Sony really screwed up on this one.

[the soUL TRAder]

No one seems to have mentioned this yet:
IT'S JUST POOR-MAN'S ANTIALIASING.

The PS3 was using HDMI (digital), the PS2 was using component (analog). What you see from the PS3 is exactly what the game is rendering. What you see from the PS2 is the image after it has been changed by the PS2's digital-to-analog converter, blurred by the component cables, and changed again by the LCD TV's analog-to-digital converter and filters. In this case, HDMI shows you just how crappy your old games look.

I'm as much of a PS3 hater as the next guy, but this is BS.

Now that's Fucking interesting, man.
I should find this Lebow........

Wait a second, so why didn't Sony do SOMETHING to make those games look better?
I'm just sayin......

It was something they skimped on, why?
It should have been a "pZwned" but ended up a "meh". (whatever "meh" means)

[Zanzibar]

Now that's Fucking interesting, man.
I should find this Lebow........

Wait a second, so why didn't Sony do SOMETHING to make those games look better?
I'm just sayin......

It was something they skimped on, why?
It should have been a "pZwned" but ended up a "meh". (whatever "meh" means)
I agree, it's all nice to understand why, but it's not forgivable to have your BC games look so much WORSE on the same TV.

[rein]

Jaggies don't bother me.

However, this might be a bug of sorts, perhaps an endian (for the programmer types) issue, where pairs of pixels are exhibiting the problem.

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/9195/ff1202ps2wb7.jpg
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/7340/ff1202ps3ag8.jpg

You can clearly see it best with the letter N in Enix, where the problem manifests as a stripe. Swap those pixels and the problem is no longer there.

If this is indeed the case, hopefully they can resolve this with a firmware update.

Ouch. I have not noticed anything like that. Maybe I am just blind or not paying attention. That shows a much bigger difference in the two. Are those your pics?

[Dracula-X]

Okay, maybe there is some "pixel flipping" going on. Naughty, naughty Sony. (Probably not endian-related, though, as that would completely change all the color values.)
Right, I should have perhaps been clearer. You're right, an endian issue can result in warped colors if we're talking about doublewords (assuming a word is 16bits for example, and our colors are stored as doublewords; color + alpha) alone. The hardware (RSX, whatever) however, might be shuffling off quadwords and could be swapping doublewords in the process, which could still be an endian issue of sorts, and give us the pixel pairing issues we're seeing, without your suggested color problems.

Rein: No, these aren't mine. If I have the time I'll dig out my old playstation stuff and make some comparisons myself and post pics.

[tombofsoldier]

Bwahahahahahahaha!

that is all.

[Shandor]

Ahh, ok makes sense now. Well from the sound of things the fix to this from Sony would be coming in the form of a firmware/software update. I definitely don't think the current PS3 BC situation will be the same in a few months.
I definately hope this is the case. :) I still have PS2 games I'd like to play, and would like to get rid of my PS2. Plus, the "fake" memory cards on the PS3 hard drive are pretty cool. It beats searching for a memory card for a specific game.

[Phanto]

Well nothing is perfect after all :D

[Wyrm]

BC is huge for me, because I love to boot up old games, and I love to buy old games. I've hated my fair share on the 360's shoddy BC, but I've never actually had problems with games on it that DID work. 2 reasons for not giving a flying fuck about the PS3 for the time being:

1) It cannot currently play Guitar Hero
2) It's still 600 fucking dollars

Other than that... Honestly, I do want one of these things (after a significant price drop), but what do you expect for early adopting a Sony console? This is what you get when you buy a brand new Sony product.

I'm also EXTREMELY curious as to why anyone would be willing to pay even 500 bucks for one of these things. I'm a reasonably well off guy, and I have a job. I could buy one, hell I could even buy one off ebay if I saved a little. But how the fuck can you justify spending this much money for shoddy launch titles, crappy BC, and a blu-ray player you're telling yourself will be really useful right now in order to justify the purchase? I'm not big on buying into potential.

[Jack B]

Well the library of BC PS2/PS One games is significantly larger than the library of BC Xbox games, but it was expected the 360's upscaling and anti-aliasing would likely be better.

However, I'm surprised the PS3 is actually reduces the quality. I didn't expect the anti-aliasing improvements of the 360, but I didn't expect it to be worse.

I read quite a few posts on the You Tube site saying, "ah, backwards compatibility doesn't matter anyway...". I wonder if some of those were the same people flaming Microsoft for a less than 100% list of BC titles.

It's a tough call on who has the better BC. PS3 has poorer quality, but a much bigger list.

[Rival]

:mad: Damn you! I got all excited when I saw the title "BC on the PS3." I thought maybe Lionhead studios resumed development on the game BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BC_%28video_game%29) . I don't have a PS3, nor will I ever, but I would still like to see BC completed.

[fleshlight]

I'm not saying this is the case, but 27 inches MIGHT be small enough(not that there's anything wrong with a 27"-it's a good size, just not a BIG tv) to make the jaggies a lot less noticable in comparison with a larger television. Everything looks better smaller.

How's that line working with the ladies? ;)

[Sandman]

I will say this : the jaggies are there but...and this is a big but...I had to have my eyes about 3" from my tv in order to notice them, and I only noticed them because it was stuff that was pointed out in the screenshots. Looking at normal gameplay stuff I didn't really see anything wrong. Seriously, folks these images are zoomed in, magnified and most of you are probably looking at them on your PC screens sitting less than a foot away from the monitor. I would be surprised if you noticed these things in normal gaming situations, without any prior knowladge that it was there.

[Tyrant]

Be surprised, because I noticed it in a normal gaming situation via a 21" monitor before I even heard that this was a widespread issue.

[Wolvie]

yet another reason why I don't want the POS3.

[Jack B]

I will say this : the jaggies are there but...and this is a big but...I had to have my eyes about 3" from my tv in order to notice them, and I only noticed them because it was stuff that was pointed out in the screenshots. Looking at normal gameplay stuff I didn't really see anything wrong. Seriously, folks these images are zoomed in, magnified and most of you are probably looking at them on your PC screens sitting less than a foot away from the monitor. I would be surprised if you noticed these things in normal gaming situations, without any prior knowladge that it was there.

It's definitely true that often it's difficult to notice differences in many things without a side by side comparison. I've seen so many posts claiming HD is no better than SD or DVD or Blu-Ray/HD-DVD is no better than current DVD's. Or that Madden, Ridge Racer, Need for Speed etc, looks better on one console or another.

Most of the time, people aren't looking at side by side comparisions. What they see is more influenced by what they "expected" or "hoped" to see. You could call it the "Emperor's New Clothes" syndrome or possibly a Scotoma (sometimes called blind spot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_spot_%28vision%29))

The blind spot or hole is filled in by your brain. It's actually a physical hole caused by lack of light detecting cells on the optic disk of the retina, but I've heard the term also used to describe the brain filling in holes to see what you want or expect to see.

For example: Two people drive along the same road on the way home from work. One is a gun collector and sees the gun shop often as he passes by each day. The other is a antique collector who notices the antique shop. When each quizes the other they both claim to never have seen the "other" shop although, it's been there for years.... They "saw" it, but their brains decided to "see" something else or nothing at all instead.

If you want the 360 or the PS3 to look better, you may be blown away by the images and claim XYZ console is much better. Sometimes even with side by side comparisions... In those cases the brain may be distorting reality.

In many cases the differences are just not that noticeble for the undiscerning eye unless you have a side by side comparision. In the end, if you don't notice it, who cares. It's not that big a deal.

It's like moving from the PS2 to the PS3. The graphics on the PS3 are much better, but the PS2 seems plenty good until you see them side by side especially on an HDTV.

[Shandor]

Agreed. The only reason it bugs me so much is because I did do a comparison. Not side by side, but because both systems can use the same video cable (standard Sony component cable), I swapped them back and forth. Now, the issue is very visible to me. Annoying, but not enough to make me stop playing. And the only reason I'd rather deal with the issue is because I prefer to have fewer items in my entertainment system, if possible, and the memory cards on the hard drive (really handy... I wish the Wii did this, heh).

[Kamalot]

Impress PC Watch: Will the PS3's backward compatibility with the PlayStation
and PlayStation 2 be done through hardware?

Ken Kutaragi: It will be done through a combination of hardware and
software. We can do it with software alone, but it's important to make it as
close to perfect as possible.

[silv]

No one seems to have mentioned this yet:
IT'S JUST POOR-MAN'S ANTIALIASING.

The PS3 was using HDMI (digital), the PS2 was using component (analog). What you see from the PS3 is exactly what the game is rendering. What you see from the PS2 is the image after it has been changed by the PS2's digital-to-analog converter, blurred by the component cables, and changed again by the LCD TV's analog-to-digital converter and filters. In this case, HDMI shows you just how crappy your old games look.

I'm as much of a PS3 hater as the next guy, but this is BS.

If you look at the screenshots, it is readily apparent that it is not blurring like you suggest. The PS2 output is actually quite sharp, as is the PS3. The problem is there is quite clearly some pixel flipping going on in the PS3 output.

This is almost assuredly a bug.