Oh, Sonic! What happened?

[GunnyMo]

In article about which some might use the terms "horse", "dead" and "beat" to describe, the sordid history of Sonic the Hedgehog (http://www.racketboy.com/retro/2006/12/how-sega-all-but-ruined-sonic-hedgehog.html?08316730) is chronicled. There is also a bit of Sega bashing for their mishandling of the property but, after Shadow, can we be blamed for being a bit raw towards the company?

Sega needs to take a long look at Sonic and decide where the games of the past really shine and focus on those aspects and those alone instead of doing even more damage.
I lost many a day to the original Sonics and can feel some of the pain the author describes. I had a good laugh over the comparison (in pictures) near the end of Sonic and Mario with their respective babes.

[Gorvi]

The overall quality of Sega titles in general has been on the decline as the years have gone by. Sega needs to take a long look at themselves as a company and try to get back on the right track in more areas than just Sonic.

[Tricky Thumb]

I still have an old Sonic plushy I got when I was just a kid. Sonic was really the only reason I personally ever envied Genesis owners. It'd be nice if Sega would just let a decent developer try their hand at a Sonic title.

[bjornbarspingvinen]

For me the should skip the lame robots, and they even had "real" people in one of the games. Also , why not try to make sonic look like he did in the old games , but in 3D. Ever since they made him in 3D , he´s been looking way to weird. Well most of the games have sucked too, but they should try to get something right .

[mightbe]

What we *need* is a Sonic Spinball remake on the Wii.

[webrunner]

The last good sonic game was 1/5th of sonic adventure 2. The controls in that game were -good-. They were responsive, precise, and the animation felt like every single footstep was touching the ground. It had a great sense of simultaneous speed and control, and most of Sonic's levels had fantastic design.

Then Sonic Heroes introduced the "giant beachballs flopping around on rubber bands" mechanic, and Shadow the Hedgehog's control was just atrocious.

Did the guy in charge of making SA2 good get fired?



A lot of people point to SA2 as where the series really went wrong, but no segments have really captured the ideal of what Sonic represents than City Escape, Metal Harbor, and Final Rush.

[RPT]

The last good sonic game was 1/5th of sonic adventure 2.
I guess you never played Sonic Rush for the DS then. All the 3d versions of Sonic have been terrible. I am holding out hope for the Wii version however.

[Watership]

I liked Sonic Adventure on the Dreamcast.. but something was wrong. There was a HUGE disconnect even then. The whole pounding 80s rock music that never went away... god. I don't miss that. Sonic Team can be a little weird and I they had lost their direction long ago.

[Yellowman]

You know Sonic may be one of those games that would really benefit from cel-shading, I think it would fit more with the general aesthetic of Sonic games.

[phantomhitman]

they just need to make a 2d side scroller of old with really cool gameplay and graphical enhancements of the new hardware. so basically, take the same old 2d action and spiff it up a little with new 3d harward capabilities.

[GodFather]

my son and I played sonic all the time. Great memories, especially with Sonic adventure on the Dreamcast. After that ya kinda just scratched your head. I was hoping the 360 version was going to revitalize the franschise but guess it buried it for good from things Ive read.

[Chris_D]

Not so much a counterpoint to the article, but an interesting side note discussion - why is sonic still popular? An little out of date but worth a read.

http://www.edge-online.co.uk/archives/2005/02/an_unlikely_her.php

[menage]

Sonic Adventure wasn't fun at all. Only the first level had any kind of appeal. I thought the article was right on the money. They really should make a game about Sonic and not of a lot of unplayable unfun characters. Let everbody shut up and just do more of the loop the loop stuff. Oh and aboslutely loose the cheap deaths, fake-questing, bottomless pits, weird camera, etc.

Just make a reamke of mega-cd Sonic. Big-fun. And at least that music was kinda cool.

[Kem0sabe]

Now going completely off topic, but all this talk about sonic adventure and the dreamcast, reminds me of Skies of Arcadia, anyone else absolutely loved that game?

I feel like the first Sonic adventure was the pinnacle, from there, things just went downhill.

[Gorvi]

Now going completely off topic, but all this talk about sonic adventure and the dreamcast, reminds me of Skies of Arcadia, anyone else absolutely loved that game?

I feel like the first Sonic adventure was the pinnacle, from there, things just went downhill.

Skies of Arcadia was an amazing game. I still need to pick up the GC rerelease to play through it again for the extra stuff that was added.

[webrunner]

Sonic is the shining example of why "2D GOOD 3D BAD UG SMASH" isn't the way to go.

It's a game about going fast, where the games people keep saying are the best ones DON'T LET YOU SEE WHAT YOU'RE RUNNING TOWARDS. As a result they have to limit speed, and in fact make the game more exploration based than even the original sonic adventure.

Sonic is just not cut out for 2D. There's no room for improvement, it's hit the wall.

A good 3D sonic game is going to be better than a good 2D sonic game, there's no doubt in my mind there, but we've only gotten glimses of good 3D sonic, and that was 1/5th of Sonic Adventure 2.

If they took that ideal and -improved it- we could have a 5/5 superstar title. Instead we get sloppy controls and camera.

[Spigot]

Now to bring up the obligatory "HEY SEGA! Hurry up and give Yu Suzuki a boatload of cash so he can make Shenmue 3!" rant that every Dreamcast or Sega thread requires.

I loved Sonic 1 & 2 (2, especially) and Spinball was a tonne of fun. I actually did a math report on Sonic 2 where I calculated the speed of Sonic using a lot of string and the average size of a hedgehog. I actually got a great mark and it was cool to see my report starring Sonic up on the walls of the highschool along with all the other less videogame related reports :)

I've never really been able to get into the 3D versions of Sonic. I liked Sonic Adventure, but never played terribly far in it.

[Wyrm]

The article is right, and Sega is stupid to think anyone wants to play anything other than those original 2d titles. For once, they need to stop trying to be ahead of the curve (not that the 3d titles have been, in any way, ahead of the curve) and just make the game people want to play. A 2d sonic, brand new, on xbox live arcade? Just imagine how badass that would be. Even a full fledged release for the newer consoles, but with the great mechanics that made Sonic so much fun to play in 2D. I keep hearing about this DS Sonic, I may need to go pick it up.

[Johan]

As a few have already said, "Sega happened."

They've killed the poor little fellow off with poorly designed games.

[Kamalot]

I keep hearing about this DS Sonic, I may need to go pick it up.
Do. It is the first good Sonic game I've played in a LONG time.

I'm replaying the original Sonic on Virtual Console now. It is much harder (and slower) than I ever remembered! :eek:

[if76]

This guy may be on the money with the new sonics being bad but he doesnt' know much about game design.

From his article on how to bring Sonic back:

"When Sonic is in 2D, players had limited vision when it came to their enemies and obstacles. While at times this brought frustration, it also required players to have quick reaction time, and also rely on either quick instincts or a bit of memorization in order to succeed."

I'm sorry but you shouldn't have to memorize the path through a sidescroller just to play it.

This guy assumes that just because Sonic hasn't really worked in 3d yet, it's impossible. Yet he also admits Sega has lately been really inept with the Sonic series. Is it possible that it's the fault of the creators rather than the perspective?

He's right when he says Sonic shouldn't come to a dead halt when he hits a wall. But again this is the fault of the designers not the perspective. Sonic should just push off the wall with his arm and keep going just like how cars bounce off walls in arcade racing games.

The more I read this article, the more misguided I think this guy is: http://www.racketboy.com/retro/2006/12/how-sega-can-bring-sonic-hedgehog-back.html

[Camel]

I am just going to cling to the 2d sonic games on the Genesis, and pretend the rest never existed. Sort of like what I do with Jurassic Park 2 and 3.

I am also going to say that I consider the Sonic games (well, 1 and 2 at least) to have the most memorable video game music ever. I can remember so many of the songs it's kind of ridiculous.

[JazGalaxy]

Sonic has NEVER been a very good game. It's always been about style over substance, and now it's basic mechanic doesn't even work anymore and people wonder what happened.

The concept is inherently broken. How does one make a game that allows the player to control a character who's supposedly uncontrollably fast?

Until they solve that issue, you're not going to get a sonic game that works.

I think the main problem that needs to be dealt with immediately is a) getting rid of a story for Sonic, and B) getting over the idea that it needs to be a graphical showcase with a giant player model. The closer in the camera is, the harder the game will be to control. Player's will either have to learn to deal with a small character (small being a reletive term. The original Sonic sprite was more than big enough) or forget it.

[Royal Fool]

Sonic needs a large dose of heroin injected in him. He's become terribly stale, and although Mario has arguably been exploited more (Despite never actually getting various long-lived TV shows and comic books like Sonic), he manages to hide it with regular botox treatments.

Meanwhile, our rodent friend feels like he needs to be admitted to the home for old hedgehogs. He no longer is the mascot he once was for Sega, who have now effectively given him his final farewell with the horrifying "next-gen" makeover for the 360 and PS3, which was ironically intended to be a reboot of the franchise and returning the blue senior citizen to his roots. Sonic Rush, while being good, is unlikely to get a sequel and Sonic Rivals on the PSP doesn't seem to be setting the charts on fire. The classic collection packs have been far more popular.

Still, I'm sure Sega will keep violating the poor guy's mangled near-dead corpse because he does sell better than most other things that Sega produces these days.

Oh, how the mighty have fallen...

The concept is inherently broken. How does one make a game that allows the player to control a character who's supposedly uncontrollably fast?

Until they solve that issue, you're not going to get a sonic game that works.
2.5D would be the way to go here, with a widescreen view so that you can hopefully avoid obstacles in time. I think they need to change the way Sonic games play to be successful with this idea, however.

I think the main problem that needs to be dealt with immediately is a) getting rid of a story for Sonic, and B) getting over the idea that it needs to be a graphical showcase with a giant player model. The closer in the camera is, the harder the game will be to control. Player's will either have to learn to deal with a small character (small being a reletive term. The original Sonic sprite was more than big enough) or forget it.
Agreed. The storyline in the new next-gen Sonic is terrible (the other games aren't much better, but at least bearable), the characters just don't really fit into the worlds some of the storylines are trying to portray. Giant flying robots with lasers and a blue, anthromorphic hedgehog that talks don't really go together when you're going for realism in other areas. Keep it cartoony, keep it funny (something that Sega lost years ago) and make it smart. If you cannot do that, don't go for a edgy plot instead where the characters all have these stupid issues, secret pasts, etc. etc. It's dumb.

[Klunka]

I'm just here to re-confirm the Sonic Rush being a great game statements. This game is honestly right behind Sonic 3 in my top Sonic games list. The speed is great. You get the sense you're moving at ridiculous speeds but it never gets to the point where you feel it's out of control. The tricks in it give a great twist to the classic style.

The only problems I found is the female cat character is completely pointless. She is in every way an exact copy of sonic and she goes through the same exact stages. Also, wen I collect all the damn emeralds, then double jump when I have at least 50 rings I should go Super Sonic dammit! Bring that back!

[Kamalot]

I am just going to cling to the 2d sonic games on the Genesis, and pretend the rest never existed. Sort of like what I do with Jurassic Park 2 and 3.
Someone told me there was a sequel to Highlander and a bunch of prequels made to Star Wars. Don't believe that junk!

[Heretic Machine]

Making a good Sonic game wouldn't be hard. Seriously, it isn't rocket science. Make it 2D with 3D environments and characters. Playable characters: Sonic, Tails, Knuckles. Just like in Sonic 3/Knuckles, they go through the same levels, but they are presented with different paths to take. Hell, throw Shadow and Silver in, if absolutely necessary. The gameplay would be old school and fun, the graphics would be new.

But it won't happen until Sega is dead, and the Sonic property has been sold off to someone else (probably Microsoft).

[bjornbarspingvinen]

I think Sega has had problem to adapt their old 2d titles to 3d, even though they were pioneers when it came to 3d (virtua racing, Virtua fighter)......

[Headcase]

I'll also chip in that Sonic Rush is really awesome. Better than the Genesis games, possibly (or at least faster, I guess it could do with a little more actual platforming). And I absolutely hated Sonic Advance 3, too. Man I hate that game. But Sonic Rush is awesome.

They even got the scoring system set up perfectly.

[VTMarik]

What they need to do is take Sonic Heroes and eliminate the unnecessary character switching mechanic. That game had the speed down perfectly, and all the platforming aspects too. If it wasn't for the "teams and switch to a flying character" part of the game it would've been a winner in my book.

Then again, I look at all the criticism that Sega's getting for these games and then I think, how would these gamers react if they were given a true-to-the-original Sonic experience. I have a funny feeling we'd get the Halo generation all whining "Oh, this game is too simple, I would've liked more from Sega at this point." Albeit spelled wrong, with leetspeak, and using more exclamation points.

[cookyshark]

The concept is inherently broken. How does one make a game that allows the player to control a character who's supposedly uncontrollably fast?

Until they solve that issue, you're not going to get a sonic game that works.

Sonic Bullet Time perhaps? Maybe even giving the ability to slow down time or speed up time like Viewtiful Joe

[danhoo]

This article just makes me want to dig my Genesis CDX out of the closet and fire up Sonic CD one more time.

[Animated X]

A 2d sonic, brand new, on xbox live arcade? Just imagine how badass that would be. Even a full fledged release for the newer consoles, but with the great mechanics that made Sonic so much fun to play in 2D. I

I think you are right on with this thinking, as the 2D Sonic games on GBA and DS are definately the best sonic games since the Genesis.

It just occured to me that this is exactly the same dilemma that Konami is having with the Castlevania games. They do 3d versions, (N64, and two on Ps2), and they are average at best, but usally hardly playable (in my opinion), and definately pale in comparison to the original games, or Symphony of the Night. It is only on handheld that they have managed to keep the Castlevania spirit intact, with amazing 2D games like Aria and Dawn of Sorrow. They consistantly spend a much bigger budget trying to make a 3D castlevania, but it never works out as well.

The moral of the story? Both Castlevania and Sonic games should get a next gen, 2D! game, because thats their strength, and the consumers will flock to it.

[webrunner]

I do not want to see a lot more 2D sonic games. 2D holds sonic back, 3D has the potential for the perfect sonic game (REMEMBER: he's about SPEED. Speed works better from behind so you can see what's coming. Would you play a side-scrolling version of BURNOUT?)

Sonic has never been a platform character, but they shoehorned him into 2D platform games because that's all they could make at the time. Now they have a chance to make a truly great sonic title, but they keep screwing it up by adding unfun characters, horribly controlled gimmicks, slippery physics, and bad cameras.

They had a glimmer of it, but they lost it.

[01010]

Let Criterion make the next Sonic game.

Sonic done Burnout style would be amazingly awesome.

[Telefrog]

If Sonic was done Burnout style, I would go bananas crashing him into oncoming traffic and getting the crash bonus.

[Nate Graves]

Let Criterion make the next Sonic game.

Sonic done Burnout style would be amazingly awesome.

Holy balls. I had the exact same thought after reading the article.

Make some great crash physics for Sonic (I want to run him into things and wince like I used to in Tony Hawk), add in some bullet-time-esque-I-am-going-ridiculously-fast moments for taking out a multitude of enemies, and throw in some awesome giant robotic bosses (think something along the lines of that boss in the E3 video for Mario Galaxy in terms of scale).

It doesn't even have to be that hard if your bullet-time and speed overcomes most obstacles...Sonic is essentially a mass-market, kid-friendly property, so the main things that would appease people is tighter controls and a great sense of being really fast and really awesome.

[Kamalot]

Holy balls. I had the exact same thought after reading the article.

Make some great crash physics for Sonic (I want to run him into things and wince like I used to in Tony Hawk), add in some bullet-time-esque-I-am-going-ridiculously-fast moments for taking out a multitude of enemies, and throw in some awesome giant robotic bosses (think something along the lines of that boss in the E3 video for Mario Galaxy in terms of scale).

It doesn't even have to be that hard if your bullet-time and speed overcomes most obstacles...Sonic is essentially a mass-market, kid-friendly property, so the main things that would appease people is tighter controls and a great sense of being really fast and really awesome.
I could be convinced of this. :D

[MacD]

Man...imagine doing a loop de loop with a fixed-looking-at-your-back camera, with the whole world spinning around to the sides of the loop, followed by a ramp and crash into a bunch of enemies, 'spintime' kicking in when you come off the ramp and the enemies being scattered in slowmo (cellshaded but at least with some texture, so with slightly more depth than Zelda).

But oh my would I not want to be the camera programmer for that sonic 3d....it would have to be perfect to pull the game off.

Oh, and Sonic Riders....I have seldom played a more horrible (and limited) game: BLEARGH!

[archon]

First off, you guys are on the right track with Sonic Burnout, that would be fucking RAD.

Secondly, Sonic rush was a good game, but not quite on the same level as the best of the Sonic 2D series. It is by far the best modern Sonic game and even had some cool stuff like the tricks to get points and more skating (etc.), but some of the levels weren't all that great (to say the least) and as I've mentioned before there's NO DAMN SUPER SONIC IN THE REGULAR LEVELS!!!!!!! FUUUUUUUUUUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Spigot]

They need to do Castlevania and Sonic like Klonoa... 2.5D for the win!

[OrangePulp]

I never played Klonoa, but if by 2.5 D you're referring to the kind of stuff that's in Crash Bandicoot (at least the old PSX ones), then that's what I've always thought they should do with sonic. Have one plane be unlimited and scrolling, and the other plane be fairly limited. Either going forward with some side to side movement, or going right (or left) with some up and down movement. Maybe even some of the indiana jones boulder style levels, where you're running towards the camera; just give enough room in front that you would have time to react.

[RedFoxDelta]

original sonic...awesome!! Last couple sonic games achieved new levels of sucking only seen in a few other games. Such as Gundam (crappy game play, crappy story, and lousy graphics).

[Thrift]

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Sonic Robo Blast 2. I was skeptical at first at the idea of a Sonic game using the Doom source, but IIRC it actually retains the charm of the original games and has some solid controls. I'm about to download it again and give it another go.

http://www.srb2.org/