Vanguard: Saga of Heroes (PC) Preview

[RainOfTerror]

Vanguard: Saga of Heroes is an MMORPG with a vast, seamless, immersive virtual world filled with elements of familiar High Fantasy, including traditional themes and more, all depicted using cutting-edge graphics technology. Sigil’s expertise and experience in the field will bring groundbreaking static and dynamic content to the genre. WorthPlaying (http://www.WorthPlaying.com) recently had a chance to participate in the current Vanguard: Saga of Heroes beta test, here is a snip :

The difference such a focused vision has had on this graphical style is astounding. I have long maintained that the visual power of EverQuest 2 is frequently lost under the ‘design by committee’ effect, Vanguard suffers no such ill effect and the world looks excellent. I can only imagine how this will continue to improve, as the build I have to work with is still two more beta phases from completion. From a technical perspective, Vanguard boasts a heavily modified version of the Unreal engine. So heavily modified, in fact, that it no longer adheres to the Epic naming conventions. This isn’t “Unreal 2”, or “Unreal 3”, or “Unreal Warfare”… It’s “Unreal somewhere in between all the other versions.” Is that vague enough for you? Yes? Good, no trade secrets for you! The game also uses a flora rendering engine called Speedtree, tweaked to allow a six kilometre field of view. Start saving your shekels, Ladies and Gents. This will require some PCI-E juice to fully appreciate.Check the full Vanguard: Saga of Heroes preview (http://www.worthplaying.com/article.php?sid=38894) over at WorthPlaying.

[drakkarim]

Vanguard: Saga of Heroes is an MMORPG with a vast, seamless, immersive virtual world filled with elements of familiar High Fantasy, including traditional themes and more,........ also coming back for a cameo; endless fetch quests, forced grouping to kills rats, and enough special time sinks to get years of monthly fees out of the most dedicated of she...err players.

[balamoor]

Yes I feel so adventurous walking to the Monster playpen to grind the perfunctionary kill 10 quest. This is truly 3rd generation. I actually feel sorry for Brad they have many pissed off beta testers and no clue as to how to fix their broken game...that is suppose to launch in March. They just keep changing the “Vision” and WoWifying. Face it MMO’s are dead.

[zrikz]

Face it MMO’s are dead.

The other stuff I will agree with you, but I guess you missed the fact that WoW has 5+ million subscribers still, EQ1, EQ2, UO, DAOC are all still going strong? Oh but yes I guess MMO's are dead.

[bean19]

The preview doesn't mention any of the hardcore elements that have turned so many players off from Vanguard. Did he never have to perform a corpse run? Did he never lose progress from xp debt/loss? Was he never forced to group in order to get decent rewards?

It also does nothing to respond to the many beta-tester NDA-breaking negative reports on the game: Does the world become a contentless wasteland when you move away from the starter cities? Are most of the features that are planned still not working? Are travel times still long and boring? Does the game still lack basic accessibility features like radar (to display quest givers and a mini-map) and a larger map?

This really isn't much of a preview when it stays so shiny/happy at the expense of not answering so many vital questions.

[xcalibur]

The other stuff I will agree with you, but I guess you missed the fact that WoW has 5+ million subscribers still, EQ1, EQ2, UO, DAOC are all still going strong? Oh but yes I guess MMO's are dead.

Actually WoW has 7+ million subs. DAoC is still going, but certainly not strong. Other than a handful of servers, many of the servers only have a few hundred people on during primetime. They did cluster servers, which helps that problem. EQ2 never really took off. EQ1 still has more subs than EQ2 last I heard, by a wide margin.


-X

[bean19]

Keep in mind that this is from June 2006 and that WoW, Lineage, and Lineage II have inflated numbers because of the Eastern cyber cafe business model.

In these cyber cafes you pay by the hour on your account, so every account - even those that are only used for one hour to try out the game ONCE - is added to the total number of subscriptions. So the effects of churn (people who play for a while before leaving) are not shown. This means that Lineage and Lineage II are probably small players in the MMO-market despite their 2nd and 3rd places according to the chart, and that while WoW is still the leader by an enormous margin, their numbers are also inflated greatly.

http://www.mmorpgchart.com/Chart7_files/Subscriptions_12473_image001.gif

The interesting thing about this is that all of those MMOs that have around 1% of the market are actually profitable. CoH/CoV, DAoC, and both Everquest games, etc. still make money because of the monthly subscription income. A developer once told me that even current MMOs with larger development costs than last-gen MMOs like EQ, SWG, and DAoC can turn a profit and continue to have a development team update the project if they have at least 50,000 subscribers. The costs of continued development are fairly low and the costs of maintaining servers are scalable.

The point of all this is that there continues to be room in the MMORPG market for more games that offer different experiences. I think that we will see something interesting in the upcoming year when Gods & Heroes, Age of Conan, and Warhammer Online are released. The genre will have multiple AAA products out there instead of just one big player (WOW) and a bunch of marginal genre players.

If LOTRO and VSOH manage to release good products (not certain by any means right now) then the market could be broadened even further. . . This broadening of the market actually is what I think boads poorly for LOTRO and Vanguard. Lord of the Rings Online is "standard MMO" with Tolkien, and Vanguard, despite their claims to the contrary and the few compromises they've made, is still a group-dependent hardcore game at it's core vision and will probably get that hardcore market but very few other people. While people might have played the same-old-thing with an LOTR-skin or a hardcore but deep MMO because the only other real option was WoW, I don't think they'll make those choices when there are 4 really deep, fun, accessible, and interesting AAA competitors to choose between. The niche titles will still be profitable, but they won't ever get to sit at the grown-ups table with WoW, Gods and Heroes, Age of Conan, and Warhammer Online.

[Kem0sabe]

The preview forgot to mention that the game is so horrible that the vast majority of beta testers don't play it, and spend their time bitching about it in the forums.

Its not exciting to log in to a beta test for a supposedly AAA mmorpg, only to see 200 people logged on at prime time...

[Skytram]

The preview forgot to mention that the game is so horrible that the vast majority of beta testers don't play it, and spend their time bitching about it in the forums.

Its not exciting to log in to a beta test for a supposedly AAA mmorpg, only to see 200 people logged on at prime time...

QFT.

I logged in and threw up a little in my mouth.

[Esquilax1138]

Mix all of the above comments with the fact that SOE is involved and this game is DOA.

Age of Conan is about the only one I *might* think of trying, and I'll wait to see what BioWare can come up with. Oh and a real Star Wars MMO would rock, not that mess called SWG.

[bean19]

Mix all of the above comments with the fact that SOE is involved and this game is DOA.

Age of Conan is about the only one I *might* think of trying, and I'll wait to see what BioWare can come up with. Oh and a real Star Wars MMO would rock, not that mess called SWG.

You should really give G&H and Warhammer Online another look. They are both bringing some new ides to the genre while keeping the high level of quality that people expect after WoW.

Age of Conan is going to rock too, of course.

[Saladin]

The preview doesn't mention any of the hardcore elements that have turned so many players off from Vanguard. Did he never have to perform a corpse run? Did he never lose progress from xp debt/loss? Was he never forced to group in order to get decent rewards?

A preview for a game under NDA has to be vetted by the developers, so of course they're not going to let him write anything negative.

[Zombosis]

You people seem to forget the difference between a preview and a review. Calling developers to task for things they may or may not have done correctly is what a review is for. A preview is a first-glance, initial impressions write-up. How could it possibly be fair to the developers to put out a critique of their software when it isn't even finished?

I also find it interesting how much spite there is in this thread coming from people who've done nothing more than read the comments of the vocal minority on another messageboard. You've judged the game 100% off of the gripings of whiners. Have any of you played the game? No? Then how are you qualified to say it's terrible?

200 people during prime time? I never saw less than 800 people, and I never play during what's considered 'prime time' in North America.

So many haters, so many armchair critics.

[bean19]

You people seem to forget the difference between a preview and a review. Calling developers to task for things they may or may not have done correctly is what a review is for. A preview is a first-glance, initial impressions write-up. How could it possibly be fair to the developers to put out a critique of their software when it isn't even finished?

A good preview will raise the issues, but won't comment on them negatively.

For instance, the reviewer could say, "While the starting areas show a lot of great content, they still have a long way to go in development as much of this large world is currently a wasteland waiting to get populated with content."

[balamoor]

Beta tester since there was a beta. Vanguard makes Horizons look good. To say that the game sucks is like saying that Pamela Lee kinda likes giving Rock stars head. :rolleyes: The developers know the game is in serious trouble and will probably be DOA, Do they attempt to get back on track of what the game was originally slated to be??? NO! they are doing the most stupid thing possible WoWifying it even more. It is buggy, Boring shit and isn't getting any better. And it's not a vocal minority 99% of the beta testers feel this way, only the die hard "Vision" Cock suckers think differently.


And I am hardly Arm-Chair Skippy. The Only reason I am not developing for Mythic, SOE or Blizzard is I choose not to. Working twice the hours for half the pay of my current gig isn't my idea of fun.

You people seem to forget the difference between a preview and a review. Calling developers to task for things they may or may not have done correctly is what a review is for. A preview is a first-glance, initial impressions write-up. How could it possibly be fair to the developers to put out a critique of their software when it isn't even finished?

I also find it interesting how much spite there is in this thread coming from people who've done nothing more than read the comments of the vocal minority on another messageboard. You've judged the game 100% off of the gripings of whiners. Have any of you played the game? No? Then how are you qualified to say it's terrible?

200 people during prime time? I never saw less than 800 people, and I never play during what's considered 'prime time' in North America.

So many haters, so many armchair critics.

[bean19]

Beta tester since there was a beta. Vanguard makes Horizons look good. To say that the game sucks is like saying that Pamela Lee kinda likes giving Rock stars head. :rolleyes: The developers know the game is in serious trouble and will probably be DOA, Do they attempt to get back on track of what the game was originally slated to be??? NO! they are doing the most stupid thing possible WoWifying it even more. It is buggy, Boring shit and isn't getting any better. And it's not a vocal minority 99% of the beta testers feel this way, only the die hard "Vision" Cock suckers think differently.

This is what you get when you design for the fickle hardcore crowd. They simply can't be happy.

Vanguard is the most hardcore MMO to be made in years and probably the last hardcore MMO to ever be made given the tiny number of players who want games without radar or maps, group-dependency required for successful play and other hardcore crap like severe death penalties that have xp debt/loss and/or corpse runs. However, the hardcore crowd is pissed that the half-measures they've taken to try and make the game more appealing to a broader audience (basically they are going to have some forms of fast travel and you won't have to do corpse runs except when you die to certain elite mobs or some crap (but who dies on easy stuff anyway?)). It's still an extremely hardcore game that most of the hardcore folks would hate after they get past their nostalgia and actually play with a system that is punishing and boring.

Yet these same hardcore folks that are being catered to despite the fact that the market shows them to be a minority are screaming bloody murder over the half-measures.

[balamoor]

Wrong Bean, at the end of the day it is a uninspired game. The quest are boring, lame, unoriginal unfun and they suck too. The mobs are literally in little play pens waiting for for the bored adventures to use the same three combat moves on them. The World has no soul. If anything remotely dynamic showed up in Vanguard the code would probably burst into flames. Love or hate WoW at least the world had a soul. There is no reason for being we keep getting promises of lore but it never shows up. So we exsist to level and grind...why should we switch our current grind fest for this again?

Now lets talk developer communication. The Archlord beta had more... and that was a joke the developers aren't communicating because they have a mob of angry villagers at their doorsteps.

All in all guy there is a reason MS cut sigil loose, the game is a shambles, think SWG right after the NGE only the devs have been given lobotomies.

Balamoors prediction: The game will not see launch if it dose expect a disastrous launch and a short life cycle.


This is what you get when you design for the fickle hardcore crowd. They simply can't be happy.

Vanguard is the most hardcore MMO to be made in years and probably the last hardcore MMO to ever be made given the tiny number of players who want games without radar or maps, group-dependency required for successful play and other hardcore crap like severe death penalties that have xp debt/loss and/or corpse runs. However, the hardcore crowd is pissed that the half-measures they've taken to try and make the game more appealing to a broader audience (basically they are going to have some forms of fast travel and you won't have to do corpse runs except when you die to certain elite mobs or some crap (but who dies on easy stuff anyway?)). It's still an extremely hardcore game that most of the hardcore folks would hate after they get past their nostalgia and actually play with a system that is punishing and boring.

Yet these same hardcore folks that are being catered to despite the fact that the market shows them to be a minority are screaming bloody murder over the half-measures.

[bean19]

balamoor - Okay, well that stuff is all good. I just get tired of the hardcore whiners that complain whenever Sigil decides to make their game a little less backward and inaccessible (though their half-measures really won't be effective with a market that loves extremely accessible games like WoW). It's sort of like having a fried liver booth next to an ice-cream booth, lightly dusting your fried liver with sugar won't turn it into ice cream.

[Kem0sabe]

You people seem to forget the difference between a preview and a review. Calling developers to task for things they may or may not have done correctly is what a review is for. A preview is a first-glance, initial impressions write-up. How could it possibly be fair to the developers to put out a critique of their software when it isn't even finished?

I also find it interesting how much spite there is in this thread coming from people who've done nothing more than read the comments of the vocal minority on another message board. You've judged the game 100% off of the griping of whiners. Have any of you played the game? No? Then how are you qualified to say it's terrible?

200 people during prime time? I never saw less than 800 people, and I never play during what's considered 'prime time' in North America.

So many haters, so many armchair critics.


I´ve been a beta tester since beta 2 started almost a year ago in December's. Remember how many people were playing then? no more than 50 at a time, when thousands were accepted into the beta. Remember the online survey Sigil sent all their beta testers, asking why they weren't playing the game?

Thousands were invited, only a few end up playing the game, thats exactly wha will happen if and when the game launches, sigil(SOE) might make some money with initial box sales, but subscribers past the first month? i believe there wont be many.

One more thing, i wouldn't trust Sigil to code a mobile phone tetris game, they had years with the most documented game engine available (Unreal 2), with shinning examples of how to implement a good network code... and what did they come up with? a game that runs so horribly, that it makes Ultima IX look amazing. The 2 continents they have opened so far, are horrible uninspired messes, with no art direction whatsoever and don't even get me started at the animations, spell effects, sound effects, textures. This game has been more than a year in beta, and it still looks like an alpha, seriously...