Zelda? Bad? What? [Archive]

GunnyMo

11-13-2006, 02:43 PM

Joystiq managed to create an uproar over the weekend with this article (http://www.joystiq.com/2006/11/11/nintendos-new-zelda-falls-flat/) claiming that Twilight Princess isn't as wonderful as we've been led to believe.

In sum: it's clear that we're playing a GameCube game that's had motion-sensitive controls bolted on in order to move Wii boxes off of retailer shelves.
Author Vladimir Cole does say this isn't the official Joystiq review and that a rebuttal (http://www.joystiq.com/2006/11/12/nintendos-new-zelda-most-certainly-doesnt-fall-flat/) to his claim is being penned. It begs the question: if it's not the "official review" then why put it up? Is it just a ploy to garner more page hits on a slow news weekend?

You might be inclined to write this off as "Oh, there goes Joystiq again" except the piece's assertion that "Zelda is bad" is backed up, at least in part, by none other than Gabe of Penny Arcade. (http://www.penny-arcade.com/)

See the problem is that he’s partially right. The game doesn't look very good. I don’t just mean it doesn’t look like Gears of War either, I mean it doesn’t even look good for a GC game and let’s be honest here that’s what we’re talking about.
However, it's not all doom and gloom from Gabe:

-Playing Zelda with the Wii controller is super fun. -The game play is a blast. -The story is great. -You’ll never even think about the graphics while you’re playing it.

edit - sheesh

Atepsflame

11-13-2006, 02:47 PM

You might be inclined to write this off as "Oh, there goes Joystiq again" except the piece's assertion that "Zelda is bad" is backed up, at least in part, by none other than Gabe of Penny Arcade. (http://www.penny-arcade.com/)

Who then goes on to say:
So he’s right about that, what he’s wrong about is everything else.

and

-Playing Zelda with the Wii controller is super fun. -The game play is a blast. -The story is great. -You’ll never even think about the graphics while you’re playing it.

Which to me seems to say that the crux of this guy's arguement is that Zelda doesn't look that hot, which I think most of us sane gamers can agree means nothing in the face of revolutionary and *gasp* FUN gameplay.

SaintArnold

11-13-2006, 02:50 PM

GunnyMo

11-13-2006, 02:50 PM

Jenga

11-13-2006, 02:51 PM

Joystiq wants traffic. What else is new? Also, isn't there different seasons in TP? Or does the whole game just take place in Autumn?

GunnyMo

11-13-2006, 02:51 PM

Yes. The title of Gabe's post is "Zelda is really good." And you could have linked the Joystiq rebuttal (http://www.joystiq.com/2006/11/12/nintendos-new-zelda-most-certainly-doesnt-fall-flat/) which was up when you posted this.

lol Actually, I was going to then I was distracted by my son and forgot to link it. Fixing. Thanks for the catch.

Disgustipated

11-13-2006, 02:52 PM

I thought Twilight Princess looks gorgeous for the technology it's running on. Like Okami, it's got art design in spades.

Entropy Effect

11-13-2006, 02:53 PM

Everything I've seen and heard about this game seems to indicate that no Legend of Zelda fan is going to be disappointed. Gamespot played quite a bit of the beginning in one of their On The Spot videos, and while the graphics might look "only" good, the game as a whole looks great. If anyone was expecting Zelda to make everyone say the Wii has better graphics than PS3, well, that's just dumb.

Food Nipple

11-13-2006, 02:58 PM

Yep, that's why I said, "in part" which would indicate Gabe didn't agree with the entire piece on Joystiq which would further indicate he had positive things to say. The reader is then supposed to read the article thus generating readership for Evil Avatar. :)

This isn't Kotaku, your summary should accurately reflect the people you quote. From the way you frame the quote you make it seem like Gabe is in agreement with Cole, when in reality his full comments are a rebuttal. The point of a summary to to condense the information accurately so that I don't have to read the full articles linked to get the basic idea of the story. Your summary gives me misinformation.

Global Goblin

11-13-2006, 02:59 PM

hmmm i just read gabe's post and he says it's fucking awesome. No where is the assertion "Zelda is bad" is backed up anywhere by gabe. come on, this is a joke.

SaintArnold

11-13-2006, 03:00 PM

lol Actually, I was going to then I was distracted by my son and forgot to link it. Fixing. Thanks for the catch.

No problem, that's why I don my Zelda fanboi armor in the morning.

Mr.Green

11-13-2006, 03:01 PM

You mean the game doesn't please everyone?

Unheard of!

Klunka

11-13-2006, 03:02 PM

I don't doubt that it's graphically sub-par. We've all seen the videos, they're not impressive cause Link is rendered in a particular way.

My problem is the example used in the Joystiq article is awful. He's upset cause you need to click A to read signs.... yea, a travesty for sure buddy.

Siraris

11-13-2006, 03:02 PM

http://blogs.ign.com/Hil-IGN/2006/11/11/36713

Probably playing the game on a LCD TV or something with the composite cables. That is a damn scathing post about the Wii.

JazGalaxy

11-13-2006, 03:03 PM

Joystiq wants traffic. What else is new? Also, isn't there different seasons in TP? Or does the whole game just take place in Autumn?
I think they fashioned the game to look like that not for the sake of having it look like autumn, but for having it have more of an early morning look in order to contrast it to the opposing "twilight".

You're right though, there is a distict yellow orange light permeating everything.

Wyrm

11-13-2006, 03:06 PM

thecrazyd

11-13-2006, 03:09 PM

As pretty much everyone else said, the Penny Arcade quote doesn't belong and is taken quite out of context. Gabe simply does not agree.

Also: The Joystiq review is just about the stupidest thing I have ever read.

GunnyMo

11-13-2006, 03:12 PM

Sion

11-13-2006, 03:14 PM

I think Im going to submit a news bit about how news GunnyMo made has people in an uproar.

Intruder

11-13-2006, 03:15 PM

Zelda will not disappoint. Out of all the hands on articles I have read, especially this one here (http://forum.officialnintendomagazine.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=803717&highlight=#803717/) I am not worried in the least.

thecrazyd

11-13-2006, 03:17 PM

How is it taken out of context? It is exactly what he said. He doesn't like the look of the game. He's very clear on that point. But, just to keep you rabid fanboys from abusing yourselves in consternation I'll make an adjustment.
It is taken out of context because you posted the only minor part of his statement that agreed in the slightest. Did you post the part where he says he would rather play it then Gears of War, or that when you are playing, you won't even notice the graphics? Or how about where he clarified his statement by saying it is just not as good looking as only the best looking GC games? No. So I feel your little snip was quite out of context.

danhoo

11-13-2006, 03:19 PM

They keep giving RPGs to people that still can't forget how much they fucking loved Oblivion. STOP THE COMPARISONS. Zelda is NOTHING like Oblivion. I'm not even a big Zelda fan and that pisses me the fuck off. God that guy is a moron.

It's true, why the heck are they comparing it to Oblivion? I'd go so far as to say Zelda really isn't an RPG at all. Maybe "RPG-lite". Paper Mario is much closer to a RPG than Zelda.

I think anyone who even remotely liked the previous Zelda games is going to love TP.

GunnyMo

11-13-2006, 03:19 PM

Fair enough. :) I've adjusted the post.

(note to self: On the day the Wii releases post news that says, "Fuck Zelda", just to piss off the fanboys. :rolleyes: )

Food Nipple

11-13-2006, 03:22 PM

How is it taken out of context? It is exactly what he said. He doesn't like the look of the game. He's very clear on that point. But, just to keep you rabid fanboys from abusing yourselves in consternation I'll make an adjustment.

Do you really not see how your quote was out of context? You quoted the only negative comment in a post entitled "Zelda is really good". You cannot get any more out of context than that! Thank you for satisfying all of us fanboys of objective journalism with an edit though.

EDIT: and now for an edit of my own, my post is almost an exact copy of danhoo's, he just types faster, bastard

JazGalaxy

11-13-2006, 03:24 PM

I'm worried since I havne't liked any Zelda since A Link To The Past. I keep buying them though...

What I'm worried about:

The characters making that annoying half-talking-noise crap that started on Dreamcast and makes me want to kill myself. "Hey!" If I hear anybody say Hey in TP, someone from Nintendo dies.

The game telling me what to do every second. Zelda is supposed to be an adventure. Give me my quest and let me do it. I don't want someone saying "Now... go here. Now take this here. Now do this." Or even worse "Hey, can you help me solve a mystery? I think the answer is this. Go over there and do exactly what I tell you even though I could just do it myself. Isn't it fun to follow my orders?"

The game being too easy. The original Zeldas were fun because they were challenging. I liked when you ahd to go nab a few fairies before you went into a dungeon because you knew you were going to need them. I think the concept of having to prepare for a hcallenge has been lost in games for about the decade and a half.

Hearts are segmented into FIVE now. What the heck? It's as though not only is combat getting easier, htey also feel the need to make Link invincible. I want Zelda to be mature, and it has nothing to do with making him a blood and guts loving anti hero, for me it has to do with the game being able to hold my interst with a proper level of challenge.

Things that I'm relieved about:

The game is apparently harder than previous zeldas and doesn't replenish your health immediately after you've been hit.

The game doesn't look goofy. (like Ocarina of Time looked. Tha game was hideous)

Serapth

11-13-2006, 03:25 PM

In Joystiqs defence... well, Zelda is "a GameCube game that's had motion-sensitive controls bolted on". Nintendo has all but said that themselves and the fact they are releasing a GC version that looks pretty much identical confirms it.

Does this really shock anyone? I imagine most of the first gen Wii titles are actually GC titles that they moved over to the Wii. This would be a big part of the reason they stayed so close to the GC in hardware design.

UglyPimp

11-13-2006, 03:28 PM

The thing that looks bothersome about Zelda (to me) is that it's still restrictive in its movement and controls. The game's environment and characters, while interesting from a conceptual standpoint, still lack some sort of immersion that better looking games possess. Would Gears of War be so highly touted without its visuals? I think it would still be a solid game but probably not as well reviewed.

I'm not trying to bash Nintendo or Zelda as I'm sure it will appeal to its intended audience. But along with motion controls can't we have some sort of noticable improvement in graphics? Who cares if it was originally destined for the Gamecube? It seems to be going the way of Perfect Dark Zero -- a solid game built on non-resonating visuals that don't quite pass expectations.

On another note, after watching Gamespot's 'We've got a Wii' it didn't seem it utilized the motion controls that much (at least initially). Seems rather tacked on -- not that it's going to somehow be a negative towards the game itself. But if this is Nintendo's flagship title shouldn't it have been built from the ground up to utilize the Wii's unique controls instead of being added as an afterthought? I still have to play it myself. These are just my initial impressions after only seeing previews.

GunnyMo

11-13-2006, 03:29 PM

No problem, Food. I'm just an ass when it comes to fanboyism (hence my reaction here in the thread) even though I'll be there playing Zelda like the rest of you and not giving a damn about the graphics. For the record, I loved Wind Waker.

And, also for the record, my definition of "out of context": if I had posted part of a sentence or a quote with the words "Zelda" and "bad" and somehow linked them together, that would be out of context. If I had not said "in part", referring to Gabe's disagreement with most of the Joystiq post, that would be out of context. I quoted the entire paragraph where he states his opinion on the graphics and it is relevant to the Joystiq post. I felt it was up to the reader to figure out why they both felt that way and to see if there was a different opinion.

Out of context is obviously subject to opinion. To be honest, I assume EvAv readers are of a higher caliber and can see through obvious news trolling and an honest attempt to generate talking points.

danhoo

11-13-2006, 03:29 PM

Do you really not see how your quote was out of context? You quoted the only negative comment in a post entitled "Zelda is really good". You cannot get any more out of context than that! Thank you for satisfying all of us fanboys of objective journalism with an edit though.

EDIT: and now for an edit of my own, my post is almost an exact copy of danhoo's, he just types faster, bastard

Actually I think your post is a near-copy of thecrazyd's post. Besides being crazy, he is indeed a fast-typing bastard.

Megalith

11-13-2006, 03:31 PM

Nintendo games are all cartoons...you can only make them look good to a certain extent.

thecrazyd

11-13-2006, 03:32 PM

GunnyMo

11-13-2006, 03:34 PM

Just for JazGalaxy:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y38/GunnyMo/navispar.gif

Hey! Listen!

cp#

11-13-2006, 03:36 PM

I like how the "Zelda is ugly" blogger brought up Wind Waker saying it looks so much better. I loved WW but so many people hated that style (who doesn't remember the outcry after the first video shown?) that Nintendo went right to work on this more realistic title

This game is apparently huge so I can't wait

Royal Fool

11-13-2006, 03:37 PM

We all know Gabe is a huge graphics whore anyway. :rolleyes:

From watching the Gamespot Wii marathon, Zelda looks awesome. I haven't even been keeping up on it very well, I prefer to be spoiled once I buy it and play it on my own.

Sandman

11-13-2006, 03:40 PM

I saw these articles over the weekend....all I needed to see on the first one was Vladimir Cole and I didn't need to read either.

Jenga

11-13-2006, 03:40 PM

We all know Gabe is a huge graphics whore anyway.
The fact that even the Gamecube graphics wasn't enough to make him not absolutely love this game tells me this Zelda will be awesome.

Captain Awesome

11-13-2006, 03:45 PM

-You’ll never even think about the graphics while you’re playing it.

I hate quotes like this. Call me fucking insane, but I "actually" love the way the game looks. One of my favorite things about it is how detailed and well built the art style is in the game itself.

Royal Fool

11-13-2006, 03:46 PM

What I'm worried about:

The characters making that annoying half-talking-noise crap that started on Dreamcast and makes me want to kill myself. "Hey!" If I hear anybody say Hey in TP, someone from Nintendo dies.
Yup, it's there. You'd better start putting together those bombs.

mkelehan

11-13-2006, 03:50 PM

What? The game doesn't look as good as Gears of War? That's it; I'm cancelling my preorder.

digitalErich

11-13-2006, 03:55 PM

Disgustipated

11-13-2006, 03:56 PM

Gears of Twilight: Zelda War

Serapth

11-13-2006, 03:57 PM

Just cause it has the same graphics does not mean that it is a GameCube game. There is a little more to games then just graphics.

Yes, your right, bolted on Wii controls. I thought the quote covered that part too?

RMan

11-13-2006, 04:02 PM

I quoted the entire paragraph where he states his opinion on the graphics and it is relevant to the Joystiq post. I felt it was up to the reader to figure out why they both felt that way and to see if there was a different opinion.
Yea, but just to give you some perspective, the selective filtering of information you have done here is a core technique of the fanboyism you dislike. In reality, you have left it up to the reader to read the article in order to get the real idea of what the guy was saying, you chose the portion of his post that was the setup for the core of his statement, not that portions of the statement that represented the message (I’m not sure how you could have misrepresented his message more with a single cut). Anyway, you can certainly generate posts by doing this sort of “shock jock” reporting, but don’t try to defend it as journalistic integrity; you don’t get to walk the line between two extremes.

Captain Awesome

11-13-2006, 04:06 PM

Nintendo games are all cartoons...you can only make them look good to a certain extent.

Since when did "cartoons" have a limitation to it's art style? I'd like to see an example please.

thecrazyd

11-13-2006, 04:08 PM

Yes, your right, bolted on Wii controls. I thought the quote covered that part too?
Except they had well over a year to adjust the game to the Wii controls. This is no tarted up port. It is a Wii game.

Odyzen

11-13-2006, 04:08 PM

Gunny, just some feedback, You're working too hard. Everybody is going to rip you for being thorough in your posting. It gives a lot but never enough.

I read all three articles yesterday, today and countless others and am convinced that Twilight Princess will be exactly as an other Zelda game. Questionable graphics but a solid and immersible game.

It's all right to criticize the game, but I think that too many people have the wrong idea about the game (Comparing it to Oblivion?) and how to view it. The graphics are closer to the GameCube than it is to the Xbox 360, that's a known fact get over it. It uses an unncessary control scheme. It's what the Wii is about, as a launch title it needs to push the Wii-mote and the progression to using this type of control. Though, it might feel gimmicky (as I do think it will for many games until developers really dwell in it for awhile, like the DS), it can be enjoyable if you let it.

Argh, I have a lot of frustration trying to come out. :(

MSUStud911

11-13-2006, 04:10 PM

All I know is the guys on the 1upShow had glowing things to say about it and they weren't positive after E3. I'm gonna choose to believe that it's good because I'm getting it no matter what.

Disgustipated

11-13-2006, 04:12 PM

Argh, I have a lot of frustration trying to come out. :(

That isn't frustration trying to come out, it's feces. Constipation. Take some Ex-Lax.

ilian

11-13-2006, 04:13 PM

Odyzen

11-13-2006, 04:13 PM

That isn't frustration trying to come out, it's feces. Constipation. Take some Ex-Lax.Actually, I have been constipated the last few days. I don't know if you wanted to know that, but now you can't un-know it. :p

Serapth

11-13-2006, 04:14 PM

Except they had well over a year to adjust the game to the Wii controls. This is no tarted up port. It is a Wii game.

Actually its a Wii/GC game to be more accurate. That, and you are assuming the game was done a year ago, which given the constant delays the series has, I highly doubt.

Serapth

11-13-2006, 04:15 PM

Actually, I have been constipated the last few days. I don't know if you wanted to know that, but now you can't un-know it. :p

Since we are already way into too much information land, I learned a neat trick about constipation. Did you know fibre suppliments both help with diarea and constipation. It makes no fucking sense but its true!

Or you could drink a ton of fishoil, but I wouldnt recommend it.

Captain Awesome

11-13-2006, 04:15 PM

I think overweight people hate the Wii version because they have to work it!

ilian

11-13-2006, 04:15 PM

Except they had well over a year to adjust the game to the Wii controls. This is no tarted up port. It is a Wii game.

We will see. But as someone really looking forward to the game, and someone who is going to play it on the Wii, it seems hard to argue that it is anything but a tarted up port. We will see for ourselves very soon, but from everything weve seen so far the evidence seems to point squarely towards "port". That isnt really that bad of a thing in my opinion though. Yeah would have been nice to be Wii focused, but its a Zelda game, I will most likely love it for the Wii =)

Serapth

11-13-2006, 04:16 PM

I think overweight people hate the Wii version because they have to work it!

Nice troll, 8/10 for execution but only 4/10 for origonality.

Stupid Fat Hobbit

11-13-2006, 04:17 PM

Since we are already way into too much information land, I learned a neat trick about constipation. Did you know fibre suppliments both help with diarea and constipation. It makes no fucking sense but its true!

That's crazy! It's like thermos flasks. They keep cold things cold, and hot things hot. But how do they know?

Captain Awesome

11-13-2006, 04:18 PM

Nice troll, 8/10 for execution but only 4/10 for origonality.

5/10 for "originality". :p

Serapth

11-13-2006, 04:19 PM

5/10 for "originality". :p

1/10 for being a grammar nazi!!!!! :p

Serapth

11-13-2006, 04:20 PM

That's crazy! It's like thermos flasks. They keep cold things cold, and hot things hot. But how do they know?

MAGICKS (tm)!!!

Disgustipated

11-13-2006, 04:22 PM

That's crazy! It's like thermos flasks. They keep cold things cold, and hot things hot. But how do they know?

Jesus knows, therefore, they know. They are a part of him, he has come unto the thermos flasks and said "Thine temperature matter not; thy abilities shall be steadfast."

dark_inchworm

11-13-2006, 04:27 PM

Say what you will, but I think Joystiq has gone to shit ever since Robert left and this Vladimir fuckwit has been hired (or become more prominent, whichever).

TheBrainKills

11-13-2006, 04:33 PM

If you havn't read a good preview for the Wii version here is one from Steven Rodriguez, from Planet Game Cube http://www.planetgamecube.com/impressionsArt.cfm?artid=12340

"I want to conclude this set impressions with a bit about the GameCube version. No, NOA didn't show it to us. Likely, they're not going to show it to anyone until it releases in December. But ever since the announcement of the Wii version, there has been the debate over which version of Zelda is going to control better. My friends, the debate is over: Wii Zelda is the real deal. I've played the game long enough to come to the conclusion that I don't want to use a traditional controller to play Twilight Princess. I'm hooked on the Wii controls."

GunnyMo

11-13-2006, 04:34 PM

I wonder if anyone has ever tried to graph our threads and the way the go from one bizarre subject to another, especially on controversial topics. :) It would create some interesting mathematics.

On another note, when I get out of the hospital after being severely beaten by you bastards, I plan on never putting the words "zelda" and "submit news" together on the same day. :p

AzN.Homeboy

11-13-2006, 04:42 PM

1/10 for being a grammar nazi!!!!! :p
-500/10 for not knowing the difference between spelling and grammar.

Serapth

11-13-2006, 04:43 PM

-500/10 for not knowing the difference between spelling and grammar.

In all my days on the inter-web ( well, since last friday more accurately ), I have never seen someone referred to as a spelling nazi.

Goronmon

11-13-2006, 04:55 PM

http://blogs.ign.com/Hil-IGN/2006/11/11/36713Wow, that guy sure seems to be enjoying his PS3 so far...
My excitement for the Wii has just dropped by about 20%. That’s still better than the PS3, which, after seeing in the office the past week, is now below “Root Canal” among things I’d like to have for Christmas.

51|RandoM

11-13-2006, 04:55 PM

In all my days on the inter-web ( well, since last friday more accurately ), I have never seen someone referred to as a spelling nazi.

...guess that makes you the first, then. Keep up your efforts.

dirtbag

11-13-2006, 05:00 PM

Bah, Vlad Cole is to Joystiq as Florian is to Kotaku. Both use hyperbole and sensationalism to drum up traffic and comments, all the while saying nothing intelligent or insightful. Only in Florian's case, we are subjected to sexism and jokes only he is laughing at.

Each site would be magnitudes better if they canned these asshats. I don't have the hate for Kotaku or Joystiq that some do around here, but when I see either of those two names, I stop reading and move onto the next item on their respective sites.

Isn't Joystiq the site Tycho referred to as a "Retard Rodeo"? In fact, wasn't it specifically in response to one of Vlad's articles?

It's fun to think about the author tippity-tappin' this one in while he eats light bulbs in the last car of the circus train.

Indeed, it appears the rodeo is still in town.

kabutor

11-13-2006, 05:12 PM

This article needs more editing, its the perfect example of taking out of context Gabe's sentence.

He say in his article that Zelda is awesome, even if the graphics are gamecubish wich they are, and that is not what it seems after reading this article.

:cool:

KingGorilla

11-13-2006, 05:14 PM

Just to make sure I understand...Gears of War-generic drivel...but good looking=good, Zelda-unique gameplay, new controller, but not so good looking=bad?

Odyzen

11-13-2006, 05:16 PM

Just to make sure I understand...Gears of War-generic drivel...but good looking=good, Zelda-unique gameplay, new controller, but not so good looking=bad?What? :confused:

EvilBob46

11-13-2006, 05:27 PM

I don't understand how bad graphics warrant comments that suggest Zelda TP is "bad" or "falls flat."

GSI_Jago

11-13-2006, 05:33 PM

Well IT IS Vladimir after all. He has a NOTORIOUS record on Joystiq for bashing Nintendo anytime he has the chance (whether it be subtly or blatantly obvious.)

Plus his previous post when they first got the Wii was pretty pathetic (as was his pitiful roommate): LINK (http://www.joystiq.com/2006/11/10/wii-en-la-casa-de-joystiq/)

Captain Awesome

11-13-2006, 05:33 PM

Just to make sure I understand...Gears of War-generic drivel...but good looking=good, Zelda-unique gameplay, new controller, but not so good looking=bad?

Someone get a translator, QUICK!

cp#

11-13-2006, 05:34 PM

I listened to a lot of gaming podcasts, and a lot of them got a chance to play Zelda at the recent press-only wii event and some of them at e3. Not a single one had anything positive to say about the Wii version. Many of them who were getting a wii at launch day claimed they were going to wait for the Gamecube version.

Well, Im going to get it for Wii anyways, but this joystiq preview isn't surprising to me in the leas.t

Expect Twilight Princess to get at least a 9/10 from every gaming site you heard those podcasts on.

I personally have not seen much negative stuff written about TP but I really don't care.. I saw plenty of negative things when Wind Waker was revealed and released and I loved that game (going to the bottom of the Ocean to Ocarina's Hyrule.. !!!).

ttoastt

11-13-2006, 06:23 PM

I just have a question. I keep seeing people say that the game feels like the Wii controls were just tacked on. Given the timeline of the game's development and when the controls were maybe added in, that's technically accurate. However, what is it specifically that feels so odd about the Wii controls? I assume it has to do with the motion sensing half (sorry, I don't know the name for it) of the controller. From what I've read, I get the impression that the motion is used for aiming and making Link do things with his sword. This seems like it would be a logical use of this capability, but I still don't get the tacked on comment. I'm serious about this question, not trying to troll

divinechaos

11-13-2006, 06:23 PM

Just to make sure I understand...Gears of War-generic drivel...but good looking=good, Zelda-unique gameplay, new controller, but not so good looking=bad?

It took me a while, but now I got it.

Gears of War has generic drivel but it looks good, therefore it's a good game. Zelda has unique gameplay, new controls but it doesn't look good and that makes it a bad game?

There, now where is my cookie?

Goronmon

11-13-2006, 06:44 PM

Just to make sure I understand...Gears of War-generic drivel...but good looking=good, Zelda-unique gameplay, new controller, but not so good looking=bad?Man, talk about putting all your effort into trolling. Not only is your post flamebait, but the execution matches the quality of the point you were trying to make perfectly.

Guy Mariano

11-13-2006, 07:25 PM

So are Wii games graphic scores going to be on a PS2 Xbox Gamecube scale? Or a PS3 X360 scale? I'm not sure how they will ever avoid Gamecube comparisons in all reviews.

ilian

11-13-2006, 07:33 PM

also the guy mentions in his blog that you might not be able to get component cables. but i saw wii component cables oat best buy this weekend, and they have themm up at gamestop.com.

Blade

11-13-2006, 07:34 PM

They're on a Wii scale, Guy.

Kagger

11-13-2006, 08:07 PM

So are Wii games graphic scores going to be on a PS2 Xbox Gamecube scale? Or a PS3 X360 scale? I'm not sure how they will ever avoid Gamecube comparisons in all reviews.

I'm really hoping that the Wii version doenst get knocked for it's graphics on overall score. I'd love to see something like this pass up Ocarina as the highest rated game, and I just hope it doesn't get knocked for it.

nemyhlovecraft

11-13-2006, 08:11 PM

themulf

11-13-2006, 08:30 PM

Well I played Excite Truck today, and that sucked. The graphics where stretched and blurry on the Toshiba HDTV, and the steering range was limited as well as not very responsive. When you crashed, you had to tab a button repeatedly to induce a boost that would help you catch up to the competition; witch is a rather sad attempt at leveraging issue of the poor control.

Mason

11-13-2006, 09:26 PM

Watership

11-13-2006, 09:29 PM

What? The game doesn't look as good as Gears of War? That's it; I'm cancelling my preorder.

But Gabe's comment is more damming (about graphics), in that it doesn't look as good as Wind Waker or Resident Evil 4.

There is a great article on GAF about "Still Beautiful after 5 years". Wind Waker still looks gorgeous, especially in motion. Will Twlight Princess?

Loganrapp

11-13-2006, 09:32 PM

Cole is a tool. I refuse to use his first name because it's an awesome fucking name and no one that big of a tool deserves to be known as such.

Zeal

11-13-2006, 09:35 PM

shnastybiznastic

11-13-2006, 09:36 PM

I see a lot of people citing TP's innovative gameplay. Innovative how? Has this been concretely demonstrated, or is it based off of Nintendo PR? And what even qualifies as "innovative" for a series as formulaic as Zelda?
First things first, look up the word innovative. Next, explain what aspect of the Zelda series is formulaic.

taken from tips 3 and 5 in The Big Book Of Making Yourself Understood In Conversation

jonat3

11-13-2006, 09:40 PM

If TP is indeed the best zelda ever, then GOTY simply won't be enough to describe zelda. More like GOTC(enthury).

OOT holds the top spot right now on gamerankings.com. If TP is better than that, we may have a new best game of all time on our hands.

Heretic Machine

11-13-2006, 09:42 PM

Next, explain what aspect of the Zelda series is formulaic.

...I like Zelda as much as the next guy... but come on. They have had the same block puzzles since '87. Sure, they throw in one or two new things in every game, like the hook shot in LTTP, or the musical element in OoT. But on the whole, the games are usually pretty much the same, especially the 2D ones. OoT and WW are particurally guilty of this, so much so that I wasn't able to finish WW. I had already played OoT through a few times, I didn't need to do it again with cell shading.

More like GOTC(enthury).

The series has only been around since the late 80's. Imagine what it will be like in 2099.

Zeal

11-13-2006, 09:49 PM

In sum: it's clear that we're playing a GameCube game that's had motion-sensitive controls bolted on in order to move Wii boxes off of retailer shelves.

Phew, thank God I was right as usual.

Savok

11-13-2006, 09:49 PM

As I recall, in Zelda they speak Hylian, the written language is Hylian, therefore you'll need to learn the language before being able to read it, no matter the res.

jonat3

11-13-2006, 09:55 PM

...I like Zelda as much as the next guy... but come on. They have had the same block puzzles since '87. Sure, they throw in one or two new things in every game, like the hook shot in LTTP, or the musical element in OoT. But on the whole, the games are usually pretty much the same, especially the 2D ones. OoT and WW are particurally guilty of this, so much so that I wasn't able to finish WW. I had already played OoT thorugh a few times, I didn't need to do it again with cell shading.

The zelda series were pretty influential on the gaming industry. Just look at the zelda history vids on joystiq.com. You'll notice that new things did keep getting added to the zelda series. As for OOT, that title was pretty innovative as well. I think it first used lock on targeting (or made it mainstream). So, up till OOT innovative elements did keep getting added.

However, majora's mask and WW did indeed not add anything that i could truly call innovative. So, i have to agree with you there. Still, i enjoyed those alot.

The series has only been around since the late 80's. Imagine what it will be like in 2099.

Heck, a GOTC game could always be dethroned by a new one. So, no problem there.

Savok

11-13-2006, 09:57 PM

A note on Oblivion's signs, I have a brand new PC, everything on max settings, you have to press your nose up against them due to the font used, it'd be easier if you could just press a button.

Also, for those that wanted a realistic Zelda over the amazing Wind Waker style, enjoy.

Atepsflame

11-13-2006, 10:03 PM

vladcole

11-13-2006, 10:03 PM

Nintendos fans will hold the company back. By accepting no criticism of the holy N whatsoever, they encourage the company to keep churning out more of the same.

I'm no graphics whore. I called Geometry Wars the single best title of the Xbox 360 launch. My post from last November is still there. I got a lot of flak for making that call, but I think that most people who played all the launch titles (including the XBLA launch titles) now agree, in retrospect. http://www.joystiq.com/2005/11/20/and-the-best-xbox-360-launch-title-is/

Now to the Wii... expectations for Zelda are too high. My own were too high. The game looks like it could have been created 6 years ago. Like a digital photo taken with a phone with camera, it's just blurry, low-fi, and disappointing. Still, as we all know, you can film porn on a phone's camera... and even the grainiest of images can still be smoking hot.

Zelda's not smoking hot.

It's stuck in a rut. If you happen to enjoy that rut, power to ya. I thought that this console was supposed to be some sort of Revolution? The most anticipated game on it is a title that runs on six-year-old hardware. That's no revolution. That's just phoning it in for dollars.

I've seen the deflated looks in the fanboy faces. Even the biggest Nintendo fanboy in the room spent more time playing games other than Zelda this past weekend. It's disappointing, and no mouselike controllermabob is going to save it from that damnation.

MaiXu

11-13-2006, 10:05 PM

So we're getting a good-looking (if not great-looking) GameCube game, that uses the Wiimote in a tried-and-true game like Zelda to prove the viability of the control scheme to really enhance the gameplay experience. I know graphics are important and all, but really, doesn't it seem that Zelda is trying to do a lot more than simply wow us visually?

I know the Wii is more "GameCube 1.5" than a whole new piece of hardware, but I wonder what the next Zelda title for Wii will look like? By the time its ready, methinks it'll look pretty damn amazing ...

jonat3

11-13-2006, 10:10 PM

Nintendos fans will hold the company back. By accepting no criticism of the holy N whatsoever, they encourage the company to keep churning out more of the same.

I'm no graphics whore. I called Geometry Wars the single best title of the Xbox 360 launch. My post from last November is still there. I got a lot of flak for making that call, but I think that most people who played all the launch titles (including the XBLA launch titles) now agree, in retrospect. http://www.joystiq.com/2005/11/20/and-the-best-xbox-360-launch-title-is/

Now to the Wii... expectations on Zelda are too high. My own were too high. The game looks like it could have been created 6 years ago. Like a digital photo taken with a phone with camera, it's just blurry, low-fi, and disappointing. Still, as we all know, you can film porn on a phone's camera... and even the grainiest of images can still be smoking hot.

Zelda's not smoking hot.

It's stuck in a rut. If you happen to enjoy that rut, power to ya. I thought that this console was supposed to be some sort of Revolution? The most anticipated game on it is a title that runs on six-year-old hardware. That's no revolution. That's just phoning it in for dollars.

I've seen the deflated looks in the fanboy faces. Even the biggest Nintendo fanboy in the room spent more time playing games other than Zelda this past weekend. It's disappointing.

Whoa, your post seems from an entirely different planet. Yeah, we've gotten some comments on the graphics, that's understandable. Afterall, it's only a GC port with nearly no graphical improvement over the GC version and wii controls tacked on. But so far, the majority thinks it's great. And i follow alot of news sites. So i don't understand where this comment comes from that this zelda has dissapointed. There's more evidence towards the opposite.

Loganrapp

11-13-2006, 10:13 PM

Yes, and since your Geometry Wars post the only posts of note you've made are vitriolic (which, really, coming from me, pot and kettle syndrome) and targeted at going against the flood of press coverage in a manner that suggests it's done for the sake of doing it, not because you genuinely believe it.

Your tone is smug, your diction provokes irritation instead of thought and discussion, and I haven't seen this sort of "hater" quality since Derek Smart last popped up on gaming forums.

Even if you're right on this post, your approach to it turns people off who want critical analysis in the true sense of the word: objective (even in opinion), well-cited views on a given game.

This is why games journalism is viewed upon by the rest of the media with scorn. This, right here.

vladcole

11-13-2006, 10:15 PM

There's more evidence towards the opposite.

What evidence? All I'm seeing is plenty of people drinking the Koolaid, afraid to piss off the fanboy legions. I've received friggin threats of bodily injury because I've dared criticise this sacred cow of gaming. People are emailing higher ups at AOL asking for me to be fired because I dared voice a contrary opinion.

Mass delusion isn't pretty. I believe that's what's happening here.

Most folks who haven't tasted of the HD gaming fruit and who've been studiously avoiding modern game screenshots will be able to play this title in ignorant bliss. Those of you who've been playing any modern games will find that this feels like a retro title that should have been downloadable from the virtual console for $20.

Savok

11-13-2006, 10:18 PM

Not the first time, is it (http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/14/an-honest-question-wouldnt-you-rather-companies-subsidize-your/), Cole.

I never thought I'd actually miss Summa.

Rook34

11-13-2006, 10:21 PM

vladcole

11-13-2006, 10:21 PM

I like this comment from a Joystiq reader: "Science damn this Vladimir Cole! How dare he have negative opinions about this game I am perpetually orgasming over! He should be immediately fired for this incompetence!"

jonat3

11-13-2006, 10:22 PM

What evidence? All I'm seeing is plenty of people drinking the Koolaid, afraid to piss off the fanboy legions. I've received friggin threats of bodily injury because I've dared criticise this sacred cow of gaming. People are emailing higher ups at AOL asking for me to be fired because I dared voice a contrary opinion.

Mass delusion isn't pretty. I believe that's what's happening here.

Most folks who haven't tasted of the HD gaming fruit and who've been studiously avoiding modern game screenshots will be able to play this title in ignorant bliss. Those of you who've been playing any modern games will find that this feels like a retro title that should have been downloadable from the virtual console for $20.

Ah, so it's the graphics that upset you. It's never been about how the game plays. Ok. I pretty much understand why people wanted to have you fired then.

As for that mass delusion, i actually agree with you on that somewhat. But on the other hand, zelda series have had good track records in the past, so i can understand why expectations are high. We'll just have to see if this zelda will break that track record. But given Nintendo's comments, i don't think this will be the case. Anyways, feel free to bag on the graphics abit more. Keeps the boards lively.

vladcole

11-13-2006, 10:26 PM

Ah, so it's the graphics that upset you. It's never been about how the game plays. Ok. I pretty much understand why people wanted to have you fired then.

Wrong. It's the fact that the game's awful graphics undermine gameplay in multiple instances. The game is less fun as a result of its inability to render puzzles properly.

Chess, for instance, requires graphics. Without sufficient graphical fidelity to render two colors (for opposing sides) and 9 distinct units, the game is unplayable.

"Is that a pawn?"

"No that pebble is a queen. This pebble here is a pawn. And that pebble there is a bishop. Checkmate."

It's actually hard to navigate the world in some places because even passageways blend into the muddy background. Puzzles should be difficult because they're cleverly designed, not because they're obfuscated.

Heretic Machine

11-13-2006, 10:27 PM

This is why games journalism is viewed upon by the rest of the media with scorn. This, right here.

I love it when people say that. Some dude said it like three years ago, and it has become some kind of forum mantra. What exactly do you expect a game review to read like? They are meant to tell you what is good about a game, and what is bad. That is it, there isn't anything more to it than that. Film reviews, reviews of plays, music, automobiles, they are all written in the same way as game reviews. They are meant to give you an idea of whether or not you will like a product, and they accomplish this more often than not with the aid of your own good judgement.

If you want meaningful insight into the idea of gaming, or the psychological aspects of being a gamer, then read The Escapist. But that kind of stuff doesn't help me decide what games to buy, which is what most gaming journalism is intended to do, and is what most gamers want to read.

vladcole

11-13-2006, 10:28 PM

I hope to Christ you never take it upon yourself to review a DS game.

I love Mario and Tetris on my DS*. I have played Tetris DS more than I've played 80% of my Xbox 360 titles. You kids are barking up the wrong tree. You want to crucify me for being a blind hater of all things Nintendo. I think certain games on the DS are fantastic (while some are just awful).

* Note that this is a DS I purchased with my own cash from the Nintendo employee store. I was (and still am) an enthusiastic supporter of the DS. Your charges that I'm a mere graphics whore are baseless.

jonat3

11-13-2006, 10:31 PM

Wrong. It's the fact that the game's awful graphics undermine gameplay in multiple instances. The game is less fun as a result of its inability to render puzzles properly.

Chess, for instance, requires graphics. Without sufficient graphical fidelity to render two colors (for opposing sides) and 9 distinct units, the game is unplayable.

"Is that a pawn?"

"No that pebble is a queen. This pebble here is a pawn. And that pebble there is a bishop. Checkmate."

It's actually hard to navigate the world in some places because even passageways blend into the muddy background. Puzzles should be difficult because they're cleverly designed, not because they're obfuscated.

I dunno, you don't really sound that convincing. You seem to be the only one that has this problem.

Besides, i've played gritty, dark games before, where i couldn't make out squat ( a former silent hill game or resident evil, don't remember). Sometimes that did bother me, but that's just the style of the game. It was a minor gripe that didn't really affect my enjoyment of the rest of the game.

vladcole

11-13-2006, 10:34 PM

jonat3

11-13-2006, 10:35 PM

vladcole

11-13-2006, 10:36 PM

PS: I love the Evil Avatar comment system! I've given up commenting on Joystiq because it's so friggin onerous to post comments there. Even staff have to click a link in an email in order to have our comments there show up. Argh.

Ok, enough of my off-topic vent. It's just very nice to be on an actual forum built for quick and easy replies...

Loganrapp

11-13-2006, 10:38 PM

I love it when people say that. Some dude said it like three years ago, and it has become some kind of forum mantra. What exactly do you expect a game review to read like? They are meant to tell you what is good about a game, and what is bad. That is it, there isn't anything more to it than that. Film reviews, reviews of plays, music, automobiles, they are all written in the same way as game reviews. They are meant to give you an idea of whether or not you will like a product, and they accomplish this more often than not with the aid of your own good judgement.

If you want meaningful insight into the idea of gaming, or the psychological aspects of being a gamer, then read The Escapist. But that kind of stuff doesn't help me decide what games to buy, which is what most gaming journalism is intended to do, and is what most gamers want to read.
Nothing to do with content. Again, like I said, Cole's assertions may be right - his methods to reach it are meant to attack the "fanboys," as he himself just earlier stated that he seemed to enjoy.

Film reviews do not trash a movie before watching the entire thing. The ones that do? They get thrown off the stage. Television reviewers get to watch six full episodes - that's five hours, as the commercials are not there in their advance copies - on average before they review a show.

Even when they do trash a product, they weigh the pros and cons, the good and bad, they also weigh which audiences would like it, which audiences wouldn't, and then they provide a review.

The problem here is that this isn't even an official review. This is just someone posting a rant and then trying to pose it off as journalism.

Therein lies the problem with games journalism, particularly ones that are online. It allows anyone with an axe to grind to go off and hide behind their "credentials" and the site backs that person up because, hey, it's the Internet.

They do this while simultaneously trying to show themselves as a real entertainment news entity. Do you see Entertainment Weekly saying "Sleeper Cell is going to suck because I don't like Oded Fehr's face!"? No. They trashed Sleeper Cell, against the grain of many other critics, the right way - they watched the requisite episodes, weighed the pros and cons, and felt it was overhyped and did so in a manner that wasn't inflammatory.

There's a right way to give a critical analysis, and a way to be critical just because it gets a few more clicks. The latter is what has been done here.

Heretic Machine

11-13-2006, 10:38 PM

I don't expect to convince you. In fact, I want everyone that is blindly lashing out at me to go out and purchase the game because regret's a far better teacher than I will ever be.

You'll be playing the game soon enough. Try -- as you're playing it -- to look into your heart and ask yourself honestly whether you're not even a little disappointed. If you're honest with yourself, that answer can only be affirmative.

Here is what I don't get... You aren't saying that this game has an unstable frame rate, or graphics glitches. You are saying that it is ugly. I have seen screenshots that tell me otherwise, and unless those screenshots were fabricated or touched up, I don't understand how I could be disapointed in the graphics department.

As for it being a GC game with a Wiimote control scheme tacked on, that should be obvious. It isn't a coincidence that there hasn't been even one decent exclusive title on the GC in 2006. They took all of their projects from the GC and started working them into the Wii, and dedicated the rest of their resources to the DS, leaving the GC to rot for an entire year before the launch of their next console. Now that is something to complain about.

vladcole

11-13-2006, 10:39 PM

Film reviews do not trash a movie before watching the entire thing.

By this logic, a review of World of Warcraft can never ever be published. The game can't be finished.

If a game can't sell me after five hours of play, it's lost my consumer dollars.

vladcole

11-13-2006, 10:41 PM

You are saying that it is ugly. I have seen screenshots that tell me otherwise, and unless those screenshots were fabricated or touched up,

In fact, there are fabricated screenshots circulating. Can you share a screenshot from the production version that you find particularly impressive? (Though I don't know why anybody's trying to convince us that the GameCube renders scenes beautifully. It's outdated tech.)

Loganrapp

11-13-2006, 10:43 PM

By this logic, a review of World of Warcraft can never ever be published. The game can't be finished.

If a game can't sell me after five hours of play, it's lost my consumer dollars.

Way to ignore what I said immediately after that with television reviewers, because I knew you were going to suggest that very thing.

vladcole

11-13-2006, 10:43 PM

This screenshot?
http://wiimedia.ign.com/wii/image/article/727/727813/the-legend-of-zelda-twilight-princess-20060823081805659.jpg

Fake.

This screenshot?
http://wiimedia.ign.com/wii/image/article/727/727813/the-legend-of-zelda-twilight-princess-20060823081804393.jpg

Fake.

vladcole

11-13-2006, 10:44 PM

Way to ignore what I said immediately after that with television reviewers, because I knew you were going to suggest that very thing.

Why do you think I used the "five hours" metric? Who's not reading the full post? =)

Heretic Machine

11-13-2006, 10:45 PM

Film reviews do not trash a movie before watching the entire thing.

Most films don't take more than an hour and a half to watch.

Television reviewers get to watch six full episodes - that's five hours, as the commercials are not there in their advance copies - on average before they review a show.

Again, that is five hours, versus dozens. Not to mention that they are just watching, not activley participating in the film. Playing games is a tiring experience in marathon sessions, not physically, but mentally. Even just treading through an FPS, mindlessly shooting enemies, gets tiring after a couple of hours. Besides, unless the graphics somehow improved in the second half of the game, I'm not sure that his impressions would of changed.

Even when they do trash a product, they weigh the pros and cons, the good and bad, they also weigh which audiences would like it, which audiences wouldn't, and then they provide a review.

...And? Most game reviews do that as well. This was a preview. Expect to see pros/cons, and more depth in the actual review.

The problem here is that this isn't even an official review. This is just someone posting a rant and then trying to pose it off as journalism.

He played a game that a lot of people are wanting to play. He gave his impressions. That is a preview.

Therein lies the problem with games journalism, particularly ones that are online. It allows anyone with an axe to grind to go off and hide behind their "credentials" and the site backs that person up because, hey, it's the Internet.

What do you want? A degree in Game Reviewing? The guy plays games. He gives his impressions of the games. As long as he can write out full sentences, he is good to go.

They do this while simultaneously trying to show themselves as a real entertainment news entity. Do you see Entertainment Weekly saying "Sleeper Cell is going to suck because I don't like Oded Fehr's face!"?

...No, I try to avoid the Bennifer gossip columns they call entertainment news.

Heretic Machine

11-13-2006, 10:46 PM

digitalErich

11-13-2006, 10:48 PM

Vlad, were the component cables available to you on this review setup (for lack of a better term) you used played the game?

Loganrapp

11-13-2006, 10:48 PM

If a reviewer plays an MMO for two hours and then reviews it, sorry, that's not enough, buddy. An MMO is a game meant to play for months - some people play it more than the average TV watcher watches TV, and they are the weak gamers, meaning, even a five-hour review is proportionately less than what you would do for any other game.

Thus, yes, if you're reviewing an MMO, five hours should be standard. Sorry, that's the life you chose. Even if it sucks, maybe you're digging through Star Wars Galaxies for the better part of a day.

So yeah, you need to devote a day to an MMO, just as you would devote the better part of a day to reviewing a TV show.

vladcole

11-13-2006, 10:49 PM

vladcole

11-13-2006, 10:50 PM

Vlad, were the component cables available to you on this review setup (for lack of a better term) you used played the game?

No.

We tried the game on two different HD monitors (one an HD projector, the other a 24-inch LCD monitor).

I know that component cables would fix some of the issues, but it'd be putting lipstick on a pig.

Savok

11-13-2006, 10:50 PM

By this logic, a review of World of Warcraft can never ever be published. The game can't be finished.

If a game can't sell me after five hours of play, it's lost my consumer dollars.
I take it you hate Square then, their games don't start until at least the 5 hour mark these days.

Cole, anyone who has a grasp of your "journalistic" history knows you're a troll, like a supercharged Evil, you make outlandish comments to generate hits, mission accomplished, you're one of the best at what you do. Just don't ever expect to be taken seriously.

Heretic Machine

11-13-2006, 10:51 PM

If a reviewer plays an MMO for two hours and then reviews it, sorry, that's not enough, buddy. An MMO is a game meant to play for months - some people play it more than the average TV watcher watches TV, and they are the weak gamers, meaning, even a five-hour review is proportionately less than what you would do for any other game.

Thus, yes, if you're reviewing an MMO, five hours should be standard. Sorry, that's the life you chose. Even if it sucks, maybe you're digging through Star Wars Galaxies for the better part of a day.

So yeah, you need to devote a day to an MMO.

MMOs are an entirely different sort of beast, and no one has a handle on how to review them. I think giving them a week to play it for at least three hours a day will give them a good judge of whether or not the game is fun or not. If it takes a year of play time for a game to become fun, then it isn't worth buying, and that is all you need to know.

digitalErich

11-13-2006, 10:52 PM

I know that component cables would fix some of the issues, but it'd be putting lipstick on a pig.
Yeah, I was just curious. Thanks.

vladcole

11-13-2006, 10:53 PM

I take it you hate Square then, their games don't start until at least the 5 hour mark these days.

Cole, anyone who has a grasp of your "journalistic" history knows you're a troll, like a supercharged Evil, you make outlandish comments to generate hits, mission accomplished, you're one of the best at what you do. Just don't ever expect to be taken seriously.

Gosh, if I didn't know any better, I'd think someone was trying to troll me.

I wrote what I wrote because I believe it. I have no ulterior motives.

Loganrapp

11-13-2006, 10:56 PM

MMOs are an entirely different sort of beast, and no one has a handle on how to review them. I think giving them a week to play it for at least three hours a day will give them a good judge of whether or not the game is fun or not. If it takes a year of play time for a game to become fun, then it isn't worth buying, and that is all you need to know.

Right - I wasn't even talking about MMOs at the onset, but since Cole brought it up like a red herring, I was stupid enough to be goaded into it.

Which only solidifies my opinion that there's no substance, here.

Heretic Machine

11-13-2006, 10:57 PM

Perignon: you can back up that claim yourself. Check the size of the images. Tell me how you get that resolution from a box that only outputs in 480p.

Those are target renders from over a year ago. The real game (the one I played and many more will soon play) looks nothing like that.

Fair enough, though I doubt that will have a huge effect for most gamers. Anyhow, I get most of my screenshots from Gamespot (http://www.gamespot.com/wii/action/thelegendofzelda/screenindex.html), and they seem to be legit. Lets take a look at a few while I steal their bandwidth:

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2006/316/928519_20061113_screen002.jpg

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2006/316/928519_20061113_screen001.jpg

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2006/316/928519_20061113_screen007.jpg

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2006/316/928519_20061113_screen008.jpg

Now, I'll give you this: The game is not the hottest thing since Hottness came to Hot Town, but it looks acceptable for a GC (Wii) game. The textures are a bit on the muddy side, but I don't see anything unacceptable here.

Goronmon

11-13-2006, 10:58 PM

Just out of curiosity, how do the visuals compare to the gameplay portions of FFXII? (I ask because thats what I am currently putting my time into along with Gears)

[VSK]BadCRC

11-13-2006, 11:00 PM

The only complaint I could possibly have with this version of Legend of Zelda is the lack of Antialiasing, it could really use some.

vladcole

11-13-2006, 11:00 PM

Heretic Machine

11-13-2006, 11:02 PM

In fact, you'll spend a lot of time retracing your steps through boring, brown landscapes that look nowhere near as interesting as these action-packed, enemy-packed screenshots would lead you to believe.

I pretty much always do in any 3D game.

TheBrainKills

11-13-2006, 11:02 PM

No.

We tried the game on two different HD monitors (one an HD projector, the other a 24-inch LCD monitor).

I know that component cables would fix some of the issues, but it'd be putting lipstick on a pig.
My god man, using a composite cable on a projector and a LCD monitor, thats just asking for Fugly right there. You are bitchin about graphics and you arn't even viewing it with the best possible setup. Try using it with Components or if you must use a composite use a CRT man.

vladcole

11-13-2006, 11:04 PM

My god man, using a composite cable on a projector and a LCD monitor, thats just asking for Fugly right there. You are bitchin about graphics and you arn't even viewing it with the best possible setup. Try using it with Components or if you must use a composite use a CRT man.

Oh, I agree with ya.

But component cables are not part of the retail setup. "Cha-ching," says Nintendo, as fans who've joined the HD era purchase yet another "optional" accessory.

Heretic Machine

11-13-2006, 11:04 PM

My god man, using a composite cable on a projector and a LCD monitor, thats just asking for Fugly right there. You are bitchin about graphics and you arn't even viewing it with the best possible setup. Try using it with Components or if you must use a composite use a CRT man.

Composite is what we are being given with the Wii, and many people have said that it is all we will get until sometime in December. I think reviewing it with component cables would be a bit dishonest.

Goronmon

11-13-2006, 11:05 PM

My god man, using a composite cable on a projector and a LCD monitor, thats just asking for Fugly right there. You are bitchin about graphics and you arn't even viewing it with the best possible setup. Try using it with Components or if you must use a composite use a CRT man.Yeah, I'm actually thinking about picking up a cheap tube to play the older games on. FFXII on my 32" LCD just hurts my eyes, even with the component cables.

Loganrapp

11-13-2006, 11:07 PM

Compare those screenshots to the renders I linked to above and you'll see the huge gap between what was once promised and what is now delivered.

Those are official screenshots from the Nintendo press site, selected by Nintendo staff to be minimally horrific.

In fact, you'll spend a lot of time retracing your steps through boring, brown landscapes that look nowhere near as interesting as these action-packed, enemy-packed screenshots would lead you to believe.

All this is well and good, but you do a disservice to your readership and the games journalism industry by applying a style and tone better suited to portions of Something Awful (http://www.somethingawful.com/yourbandsucks/), considering that you do this from the site's main page. If you want Joystiq to become a truly credible entity, this sort of writing has no business there.

And the funny thing is, you don't care. Or get it. Yes, the fanboys are out in force, all well and good, that's not hard to do, but there's a large portion of gamers who aren't fanboys that have the same sort of irritation toward your posts.

You write like you're writing now, explaining yourself, citing your sources, going step-by-step with how you came to the conclusion, and presto, you're golden. People will disagree, fanboys will be pissed, but no one other than true-blue trolls are calling you a tool.

But starting off a post with "At great risk to personal health, this author dares criticize The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess for the Nintendo Wii." Reeks of self-importance.

EDIT: Oh, right, and headlines? The engine that couldn't - again, what purpose did this serve, other than to stir up controversy?

You're quickly becoming the John C. Dvorak of gaming. Only you don't have Leo Laporte as a friend to keep you afloat.

Heretic Machine

11-13-2006, 11:07 PM

Yeah, I'm actually thinking about picking up a cheap tube to play the older games on. FFXII on my 32" LCD just hurts my eyes, even with the component cables.

That is one of the many downsides to LCD screens. If you play something at a non-native resolution, it looks terrible. That is a big part of the reason I went with a CRT when I bought my HDTV, and why I won't be getting an LCD monitor for my PC anytime soon. They are sexy, yes, but a CRT is just more functional for a hardcore gamer.

digitalErich

11-13-2006, 11:12 PM

Composite is what we are being given with the Wii, and many people have said that it is all we will get until sometime in December. I think reviewing it with component cables would be a bit dishonest.
While not as huge of a gap, that's like saying reviewing a PS3 or 360 game on a HDTV is dishonest since most people out there still don't have one. It's not dishonest...it's giving the game the best possible setup so that it can shine.

I agree that the game probably should be reviewed with the composite cables (then again, do you really think anyone will review PS3 games with the composite cables?) but calling it dishonest to use component is a bit of a stretch, I think.

In either case, I think it should be noted in the article.

Heretic Machine

11-13-2006, 11:15 PM

While not as huge of a gap, that's like saying reviewing a PS3 or 360 game on a HDTV is dishonest since most people out there still don't have one.

Not really, they were made to be played on HDTVs. That is why one of them comes with component cables. The Wii ships with composite, and doesn't even have component available as an extra (overpriced) accessory at launch. To me, that means that the game is intended to be played over composite cables.

Now maybe if they were offering official component cables at launch, then I could see reviewing them with that even if it is an extra accessory that you have to buy. But before Nintendo puts them on the market, no game should be reviewed using them.

Besides that, it is my understanding that this dude was given the oppurtunity to play these games by Nintendo, under conditions that they set up. If they made these conditions worse than they should of been, that is their fault.

digitalErich

11-13-2006, 11:17 PM

Loganrapp

11-13-2006, 11:18 PM

Goronmon

11-13-2006, 11:20 PM

That is one of the many downsides to LCD screens. If you play something at a non-native resolution, it looks terrible. That is a big part of the reason I went with a CRT when I bought my HDTV, and why I won't be getting an LCD monitor for my PC anytime soon. They are sexy, yes, but a CRT is just more functional for a hardcore gamer.Well, when I bought my HDTV I had to make sure it was something that I could easily lift by myself. Haven't yet found a CRT that could make that claim.

Heretic Machine

11-13-2006, 11:21 PM

So, because something isn't available at retail for 3 weeks, reviewers shouldn't use it in their reviews? That seems to go against every tech review out there. Again, it should be noted that they are being used, but I say if the reviewer has access, use them.

You shouldn't review a launch game with features that aren't going to be available at launch. Maybe he should of mentioned that he was playing the game over composite, but that is something that most gamers will be playing it over when launch day comes, so I don't see how it really matters in the end.

Well, when I bought my HDTV I had to make sure it was something that I could easily lift by myself. Haven't yet found a CRT that could make that claim.

That is understandable. Mine weights about a hundred pounds, which wouldn't be that bad if it weren't so thick. I can't get a good grip on it, and that added with the weight means that it takes two people to move.

digitalErich

11-13-2006, 11:26 PM

The Wii ships with composite, and doesn't even have component available as an extra (overpriced) accessory at launch. To me, that means that the game is intended to be played over composite cables.

The fact that in 3 weeks (small timespan given it's a hardware launch) you'll be able to use either and the fact that the Wii can output 480p tells me it is intened to use either.

I know you only said one, implying you weren't talking about the PS3, but I suspect if a reviewer said anything about visual quality and it turns out he was using composite cables or an SDTV, people would scream bloody murder.

I don't think the difference between SD and HD is same as 480i and 480p, of course but I think whatever system you are using, you should give the game the best setup you can, in order to give it the benefit of the doubt, visually.

In any case, with the new gen of consoles I think setups should be noted in any reviews, as they are in any credible PC game review. That only goes double as I know this 1080p pissing contest is only getting started between Sony and MS.

pooty-tang

11-13-2006, 11:32 PM

wow, just like to say that i love this thread. been reading for about 15 min. and cole has already defended himself about 4 times. a very dilligent poster you are, v-cole.

i'm not going to flame or bait anyone, especially v-cole, because i've seen that that has become fruitless with his rationalizing. rather, i'd like to point out one fact that has been brought up multiple times, but no one has semed to grasp hold of yet:

ITS GC GRAPHICS.

even admitted by Nin., the graphics were not upgraded. and i'm sorry, but they are not ugly by any standard for comparable hardware. re4 quality? not quite. ugly? you must have bad eyesight. out of all posters on this forum (save Zeal), i've only seen one person post that the graphics were fucking ugly. we all know who this is. by general standards, the majority is usually correct, with the exception being nazi germany. and in on way, shape, or form will i ever compare a fucking videogame with nazi germany.

in closing, i suggest everyone take whater they hear about any unreleased game with a grain of salt. especially from people who have a habit of baiting for one side or the other for whatever reason, or no reason at all. there will be extremes on both sides of the good/bad arguement. if you're not sure which one is more accurate? spend $3 and rent the damn thing.

all that said, i'm still buying the damn game. i've got a 360 and i still think the graphics look great.

Heretic Machine

11-13-2006, 11:32 PM

The fact that in 3 weeks (small timespan given it's a hardware launch) you'll be able to use either and the fact that the Wii can output 480p tells me it is intened to use either.

1. Most gamers buying the Wii probably don't have televisions that take component-in.

2. The cables aren't available at launch.

3. You have to buy them seperatly when they finally do come out.

That would be like launching the 360 before HDTVs, and asking that they hold all reviews until said TVs show up on the shelves.

I know you only said one, implying you weren't talking about the PS3, but I suspect if a reviewer said anything about visual quality and it turns out he was using composite cables or an SDTV, people would scream bloody murder.

And if component cables were actually available to buy from Nintendo when I go to Wal-mart to pick up a Wii this Sunday, then I would be fine with using them for a review. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure a review isn't going to give me an accurate representation of what I am going to see when I start up Zelda over composite.

I don't think the difference between SD and HD is same as 480i and 480p, of course but I think whatever system you are using, you should give the game the best setup you can, in order to give it the benefit of the doubt, visually.

The difference between 480i and 480p is... negligable, in my opinion. But some people say that anything, even SDTV (480i, as 480p is EDTV), looks better over component. I'm not sure I buy that, but whatev.

TheBrainKills

11-13-2006, 11:34 PM

Not really, they were made to be played on HDTVs. That is why one of them comes with component cables. The Wii ships with composite, and doesn't even have component available as an extra (overpriced) accessory at launch. To me, that means that the game is intended to be played over composite cables.

Now maybe if they were offering official component cables at launch, then I could see reviewing them with that even if it is an extra accessory that you have to buy. But before Nintendo puts them on the market, no game should be reviewed using them.

Besides that, it is my understanding that this dude was given the oppurtunity to play these games by Nintendo, under conditions that they set up. If they made these conditions worse than they should of been, that is their fault.

There are 2 different brands of component cables at launch I believe, and just because they are not "official" they shouldn't be used? What? Are you nuts? The Wii ships with composite only because it was meant to be played that way with 75% of the people out there whom have CRT TV's. I hope those PS3 reviews we see are using the included composite cable.

LogainAblar

11-13-2006, 11:40 PM

So, I understand that the game map was mirrored to suit right-handed people, but is there an option to switch it around so we can play as a left-handed Link?

Heretic Machine

11-13-2006, 11:41 PM

There are 2 different brands of component cables at launch I believe, and just because they are not "official" they shouldn't be used?

...Dude, if you want to buy MadCatz garbage, go for it. I don't deal with that crap, because they seem to have a hard time making just about anything (including regular old composite cables).

What? Are you nuts? The Wii ships with composite only because it was meant to be played that way with 75% of the people out there whom have CRT TV's.

Exactly, which means that this whole component cable issue is irrelevant to begin with. The quality increase is small, most gamers buying the Wii won't have the TV to use it, the cable isn't available at launch, and it is an extra $25 when it finally does come out.

I hope those PS3 reviews we see are using the included composite cable.

I hope they at least give a comparison, for the ignorant people out there who don't understand what an increase in resolution means. Let me tell you, it doesn't fix bad textures or blocky models. Frequently it makes problems worse.

digitalErich

11-13-2006, 11:43 PM

I guess I just see it as being unfair to the game. If you are going to complain about the visuals, but not mention a variable that can affect the visuals, even if only slightly, then you are not being completely responsible. To me, it's like reviewing a Dolby remaster of a movie with a 2.1 setup and complaining that new, remastered sound isn't all that hot. Sure that is more extreme, but it illustrates my point. If you want to review an aspect of a game, whether that be sound of visuals, review it with a strong setup so that you are reviewing the game, not game+hardware variability.

And I never said they should hold the review. You argued reviewers shouldn't use the cables; I was arguing they should. Or at the very least, note this in the article.

Also, the component cables for the PS3 hit numbers 1 and 3 up there (not sure about #2), so is this the trifecta of hardware review criteria that has to be met or something? ;)

Goronmon

11-13-2006, 11:52 PM

Honestly when it comes down to it, if it looks better than OoT, I'll be a happy Zelda fanboy.

Zeal

11-13-2006, 11:53 PM

Oh really, it's Gamecube graphics huh. Then what happened to all the supposed graphical updates being made to the Wii version.

Bullshit, that's what. I've been saying it's a Gamecube port for months.

Oh course the Nintendo heads were all "NAH PLAYA THAT SHIT GONNA BE WII GRAPHIC UPGRADE SON. THE WII VERSION A WHOLE NEW VERSION OF THE GAME."

Yeah, new version my dick.

TheBrainKills

11-13-2006, 11:56 PM

Well, I will be playing on a DLP 50" Widescreen and believe me there is a huge difference in Composite to Component. IF I can't find cables at launch I will simply wait untill I get them, I do not play games if I can't play them with the best possible setup. Simply not done.

Zeal, why the hell are you in this thread .... I thought Zelda was your kryptonite.

Zeal

11-14-2006, 12:00 AM

Nigga please, I'm the reason they renamed the Golden Land to the Dark World.

MaiXu

11-14-2006, 12:14 AM

Oh course the Nintendo heads were all "NAH PLAYA THAT SHIT GONNA BE WII GRAPHIC UPGRADE SON. THE WII VERSION A WHOLE NEW VERSION OF THE GAME."

Zeal, is that the voice you hear inside your head?

I think I am beginning to understand him ...

Kefkataran

11-14-2006, 12:30 AM

Guys, it's Vladimir Cole. What did you expect? The guy hates the Wii. Or at the very least he has a tendency (in almost every news post he does on Joystiq) of being quite negative about it. Big deal, no surprise, yawn, move on, buy the Wii next weekend, play Zelda, and love it. The end.

score

11-14-2006, 01:39 AM

Yes, your right, bolted on Wii controls. I thought the quote covered that part too?

So, I may be a bit vague here with my dates but the Twilight Princess has been in development for, what, 3 years now? and 1 year of that has been Wii specific development?

Kefkataran

11-14-2006, 01:42 AM

Score, that sounds right-ish -- maybe another year or so on the total development time, but close at least.

HumpYourWay

11-14-2006, 01:47 AM

LOOOL This thread is great!
The new Zelda sucks as it should.

Evil Avnovice

11-14-2006, 02:16 AM

I read this last night, and this:

...Example: roadside signs are illegible. In Zelda, merely reading signs becomes laborious and annoying. You must first walk up to the sign. You must then press the controller's "a" button. When you do this, the game zooms in on the sign (taking a moment to do this). The game then shows you the text of the sign. Finally, having read the sign, you must hit another button to zoom away from the sign and regain control of your character.

...To read a sign in The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, merely stand in the street and look at it. Signs (by design) are meant to be read from afar. Zelda's clumsy sign-reading is just one example of how graphical shortcomings result in decreased immersion and a lower overall fun factor. Oblivion won praises for its immersive feel. Zelda falls short of the bar set by modern virtual worlds.

sums up my thoughts on the article.

Captain Awesome

11-14-2006, 02:29 AM

ttoastt

11-14-2006, 04:14 AM

No one has any comments about the tacked on feel of the Wii controls?

bapenguin

11-14-2006, 04:32 AM

Does anybody else get the mental image of Nintendo fanboys of the Russian army during the battle of Stalingrad? That is...if they turn there back on Nintendo does Nintendo mow them down with machine guns for retreating?
That's just the mental image I get.

Guys....chill the fuck out. It's one guys opinion of the graphics. It's not the god damn bible. If he thinks the graphics sucks...you aren't going to change that.

And Vlad...glad you could join our little party. :)

Feltoar

11-14-2006, 05:24 AM

Bolted on Wii controls...

Yes its true. I just fail to see why thats such a huge f* flaw. Why do we need to be negative because it doesnt embody everything the Wii is about? Some of the best games on the DS, such as Advance Wars and Mario Kart have little to do with the new style of play which is possible. Unless the controls are unusable or unplayable, you dont go mouthing off like that.

The sign stuff was simply laughable too. Im currently playing Oblivion and Ive even gotten a sign mod to improve them (yay). So I know the importance of a sign :P. But damn, this is Zelda. I dont want to have to go into first person mode just to read a sign, pressing A is easier. Its an action/adventure which shouldnt be compared to Oblivion. Its not after 'immersion', which would just be broken anyway if you decided to ditch the Hylian signs for English ones. Bah, and somehow this effects gameplay?

Serapth

11-14-2006, 05:28 AM

Nintendos fans will hold the company back. By accepting no criticism of the holy N whatsoever, they encourage the company to keep churning out more of the same.

This may perhaps be the biggest reason I didnt get a Gamecube. More of the same... blah blah blah. My hope is, Wii changes that.

By the way, many of you Nintendo fans look extremely silly in this thread. You are attacking a guy for having a divergent opinion from the rest of the gaming world. Um yeah, ok... back to your grazing sheep!

Cole represented his point well here, and took alot of childish fanboy attacks without attacking back. I applaud him in that regard.

Jenga

11-14-2006, 05:29 AM

TSA from The Hylia just gave TP a 9.6

http://www.thehylia.com/index.php?subaction=showfull&id=1163469393&archive=&start_from=&ucat=9&

He's the guy who did the OoT speedrun.

Jenga

11-14-2006, 05:31 AM

This may perhaps be the biggest reason I didnt get a Gamecube. More of the same... blah blah blah. My hope is, Wii changes that.

By the way, many of you Nintendo fans look extremely silly in this thread. You are attacking a guy for having a divergent opinion from the rest of the gaming world.Maybe because it's a very STUPID opinion? Seriously, blasting the game for being too brown, sure that's a decent complaint. But whining about sign reading in a Zelda game is the most retarded thing I've ever heard.

Serapth

11-14-2006, 05:36 AM

Maybe because it's a very STUPID opinion? Seriously, blasting the game for being too brown, sure that's a decent complaint. But whining about sign reading in a Zelda game is the most retarded thing I've ever heard.

Sure, pick out individual parts of his "opinion" and present it like its the only thing he said. Kinda makes you look like a defender.

Here's one thing to keep in mind, he has played the game. He is intitled to an opinion. You have not, thus you are not. Funny how people are defending this game like its gods gift the gamers, while having never actually played it???

Besides, if the sign thing is the most retarded thing you've ever heard, you are very lucky. You most be surrounded by extremely intelligent people. I hear shit dumber then that 5 times on my way to work, and its only a 3 minute walk!

Feltoar

11-14-2006, 05:45 AM

Lol, way to go Serapth.. I dont think Jenga was literally saying its the most retarded thing hes ever heard. Ever heard of a hyperbole?

That fact of the matter is, the reviewer is bashing a game many people are highly anticipating; and with good reason. A very compitent team over at Nintendo postponed this game by a year to get it done right. That reeks of confidence, even if it isnt concrete evidence for us who havent played it yet. Its enough for us to question the integrity of what has been written, particularly when measured against other reports we are getting from the game.

cp#

11-14-2006, 06:43 AM

Oh shut up you babies. It's no secret that Nintendo heads can't take valid criticism. The guy played the game and says it sucks.

In other news, why is Gears of War the best game I have played since Halo. Game of the Year award right here. Anyone who doesn't agree can get fucked.

I LOL'ed.

Halo is a shit-tacular game.

I will be purchasing Zelda when I get my Wii system and I can assure everyone that I will enjoy it. The graphics look good to me and I have only watched a bit of video from E3 and Engadget (their video is just a camera focused on a TV and it looks fine n' dandy)

Sure the 360 looks better, it also outputs at 720p (except for a few games ;) ). But you cannot compare the 360 visuals to that of the Wii. Sorry.

Also remember that the PS3 only has composite cables in the box. The HD era has officially begun.

One of the biggest issues concerning some are the visuals. Twilight Princess is the flagship title of Wii, a system not being touted for its next-gen graphics, but rather next-leap gaming. The title is also a converted GameCube title, and many want to know just how great Zelda really looks in action. Zelda titles have never been known for their ground-breaking visuals, but Twilight Princess is easily the most amazing looking Zelda title ever. Compared to Resistance: Fall of Man on PS3 or Gears of War on XBOX 360, though, the graphics don't quite compare, but hold their own nicely. If you're not running the title on 480p on an HDTV with component cables, you're going to get the blurriness associated with Nintendo's composite outputs. For those obsessed with graphics, the component cables are a must-have, but for those who can look past having sharper visuals, the default composite cables will suffice.

Still, the scale of Hyrule and the sheer brilliance of each new area and dungeon must not go unheralded. Nintendo did a spectacular job bringing Twilight Princess to life, and it is one of the best looking titles of 2006. Personally, for the size of this title, the visuals are impressive. I think only Oblivion outshines Twilight Princess in this area in the context of size and scale. There are some, however, who will have problems with some of the animations in the game, in particular Link's running and Epona's galloping. I never had a big issue, but it is probably one of the small things that detracts from Twilight Princess.

MAbans

11-14-2006, 07:19 AM

Welcome to the Post-Gears of War years.

Goronmon

11-14-2006, 07:19 AM

Halo is a shit-tacular game.Now, I think Gears plays better than Halo, but that doesn't mean I no longer think its a great game. I look down on anyone who calls Halo something like "shit-tacular" even if its hyperbole.

Serapth

11-14-2006, 07:19 AM

Sure the 360 looks better, it also outputs at 720p (except for a few games ;) ). But you cannot compare the 360 visuals to that of the Wii. Sorry.

Ummmm.... why not? They are two competing products fighting for consumers dollars this year. Seems kinda silly to ignore ones strong points, dontcha think?

Mason

11-14-2006, 07:33 AM

First things first, look up the word innovative. Next, explain what aspect of the Zelda series is formulaic.
As has been mentioned, apply whatever positive adjectives to the franchise as you like, but "innovative" stopped being applicable after OoT. Innovative would be the Adventure of Link, in comparison to the first Zelda. But hey, you know, adding magnetic boots and a wolf form is pretty great, too.

Repetition is not a bad thing, plenty of game franchises just offer permutations of the same formula, and that doesn't keep them from being fun if it's a formula you like. But it does keep them from being innovative. Don't sling that word around just because Nintendo's marketing drilled it into your skull.

MAbans

11-14-2006, 07:34 AM

Ummmm.... why not? They are two competing products fighting for consumers dollars this year. Seems kinda silly to ignore ones strong points, dontcha think?

huh.. Not at all, Nintendo has never said they were competing for graphics, they kno they can't. So they are doing something different; which has worked for them (DS vs PSP?) I will have all 3 systems at one point cause it comes down to games but buying into the idea that the game sucks just because you can read signs from a distance is like saying Gears of War sucks because it's only 8 hours long (Short for ANY game). So ultimately what it comes down to a stupid opinion by someone who didn't really review the game on it's merits but rather to do it for the sake of planeting the seed of debate we have all now been sucked into..

Brilliant work Vladimir Cole; now everyone is talking about your article, bringing the site traffic and you have your moment in the sun as "the lone voice against Zelda and Nintendo". It's dishonest on it's face and you can now join the circle of people who also didn't like Wind Waker becuase of it's "Cartoony graphics" and just didn't get the whole "funny" of Borat.

Zelda has YET to disappoint me. Just like GTA, HALO, Final Fantasy (Yes including 8 and 11), Mario, Metal Gear Solid and Call of Duty. That is why I'm going to get it, but if you are gonna tell me that the game sucks becuase of the brown graphics and illegible type prior to having to press a button I'll rebutt that Gears of Wars Sucks because it's only 8 hours long and nothing more than a pretty face. It's just a stupid, yet valid. If anyone doesn't see how calculated this entire thing has been you're just silly.

Serapth

11-14-2006, 07:47 AM

huh.. Not at all, Nintendo has never said they were competing for graphics, they kno they can't. So they are doing something different; which has worked for them (DS vs PSP?) I will have all 3 systems at one point cause it comes down to games but buying into the idea that the game sucks just because you can read signs from a distance is like saying Gears of War sucks because it's only 8 hours long (Short for ANY game). So ultimately what it comes down to a stupid opinion by someone who didn't really review the game on it's merits but rather to do it for the sake of planeting the seed of debate we have all now been sucked into..

Brilliant work Vladimir Cole; now everyone is talking about your article, bringing the site traffic and you have your moment in the sun as "the lone voice against Zelda and Nintendo". It's dishonest on it's face and you can now join the circle of people who also didn't like Wind Waker becuase of it's "Cartoony graphics" and just didn't get the whole "funny" of Borat.

Zelda has YET to disappoint me. Just like GTA, HALO, Final Fantasy (Yes including 8 and 11), Mario, Metal Gear Solid and Call of Duty. That is why I'm going to get it, but if you are gonna tell me that the game sucks becuase of the brown graphics and illegible type prior to having to press a button I'll rebutt that Gears of Wars Sucks because it's only 8 hours long and nothing more than a pretty face. It's just a stupid, yet valid. If anyone doesn't see how calculated this entire thing has been you're just silly.

Then on the flipside, never once in a PS3 or XBox 360 thread do I want to hear about how the controls suck and its not innovative coming from team Nintendo. Thats never going to happen though, especially on games like CoD3 that are on all three platforms. You are going to hear Nintendo fans chime in about how the controls on the Wii are so awesome and innovative, but if someone from the Sony or MS camp says "yeah, but you're graphics suck", you will hear the same thing from the Nboys "Its not about graphics, graphic whores!".

Double fucking standard.

Goronmon

11-14-2006, 07:54 AM

Double fucking standard.Gameplay beating out graphics in terms of importance is a double standard?

TheFlyingOrc

11-14-2006, 07:59 AM

Vlad joined the site! Yay! I was worried where I'd get my trolling from!

Hey, how about another economics lesson?

vladcole

11-14-2006, 07:59 AM

Gameplay beating out graphics in terms of importance is a double standard?

Gameplay vs. graphics is a false dichotomy.

Gameplay requires sufficient graphics.

To repeat my chess example from earlier in this thread:

Chess, for instance, requires graphics. Without sufficient graphical fidelity to render two colors (for opposing sides) and 9 distinct units, the game is unplayable.

"Is that a pawn?"

"No, that pebble is a queen. This pebble here is a pawn. And that pebble there is a bishop. Checkmate."

"LoL, you can't checkmate my rook."

It's actually hard to navigate the world of Zelda in some places because even passageways blend into the muddy background. Puzzles should be difficult because they're cleverly designed, not because they're obfuscated.

Zelda's graphics make puzzles harder and make ordinary gameplay more onerous and less immersive. Graphics and gameplay interact. Each can either support or undermine the other.
__________________

Goronmon

11-14-2006, 08:04 AM

Zelda's graphics make puzzles harder and make ordinary gameplay more onerous and less immersive. Graphics and gameplay interact. Each can either support or undermine the other.Are you saying its worse visually than the previous generation of games?

Serapth

11-14-2006, 08:04 AM

Gameplay beating out graphics in terms of importance is a double standard?

Saying its ok to be critical of one but not the other, yes, thats a double standard. Or as vlad said, trying to seperate the two, or to ignore one and focus on the other, is simply wrong.

jonat3

11-14-2006, 08:04 AM

Then on the flipside, never once in a PS3 or XBox 360 thread do I want to hear about how the controls suck and its not innovative coming from team Nintendo. Thats never going to happen though, especially on games like CoD3 that are on all three platforms. You are going to hear Nintendo fans chime in about how the controls on the Wii are so awesome and innovative, but if someone from the Sony or MS camp says "yeah, but you're graphics suck", you will hear the same thing from the Nboys "Its not about graphics, graphic whores!".

Double fucking standard.

There are double standards on every side. Just pick out the intelligent non biased replies and ignore the rest. If you tend to group supporters from one console in one basket, you lose sight of yourself and fall in the trap of becoming a fanboy unknowingly.

If one looks at this matter objectively, Cole does have a fight seeking tone. The way he states his opinions, if he did that on a message board, it would most likely be deleted as a troll post. So i have to agree that Cole's tone is provocative. People with such attitudes don't inspire confidence. Since he seems to be the only one that has real problems with TP, his opinion becomes especially suspect.

As for his point that fanboys can't take criticism, i must agree there. But this is mostly true of every fanboy. Admittedly, the fanboyism for zelda is one of the most extreme, but i think you should also fault Nintendo for putting out too many quality zelda titles for that. Based on track record, the series has hardly ever dissapointed, which is why expectations are high. But seriously, based on track record, Nintendo's statements and the extra developement time, what do you think the odds are for zelda being a good game? Pretty good.

I always try to be as unbiased as possible, which is why i try to respect everyone's opinion. Even the one sole dissenting one. Which is why i will try out the game first, before making final judgements.

vladcole

11-14-2006, 08:09 AM

Are you saying its worse visually than the previous generation of games?

The gap between "new Zelda" and "competitor products" has never been greater. Nintendo's using a product that could have been launched five years ago to go against the likes of Blue Dragon, Oblivion, Lair, and so on. The Zelda series has never looked so antiquated versus competition as it does now.

Everything is relative. Back in the day, a Ford Mustang stacked up well against its competitors. If Ford were to launch a 1971 Mustang against current competitors, however, the car world (and consumers) would laugh. It just doesn't compete against today's engines.

Fast in cars is as important as graphics in games. It's still possible to be fun without being fast in absolute terms (evidence: go kart racing), but it's hard to remain relevant without a product that can match the competition.

Mr.Green

11-14-2006, 08:17 AM

Gameplay beating out graphics in terms of importance is a double standard?
No, but I'm hesitant to call the replacement of button presses with hand waving better gameplay, especially after trying the Wiimote myself. I have to be honest and say I didn't have much time with it though. Not nearly enough to form a definitive opinion, but that being said, I was a bit underwhelmed by it nonetheless. Aiming with this thing didn't feel nearly as good as I was hoping for. It's probably better than an analog stick but it's nowhere near a mouse. The graphics, on the other hand, looked just fine, and the Wii's were hooked to huge LCD displays.

Goronmon

11-14-2006, 08:21 AM

Saying its ok to be critical of one but not the other, yes, thats a double standard. Or as vlad said, trying to seperate the two, or to ignore one and focus on the other, is simply wrong.If you want to pretend that I said graphics should be ignored when discussing a game, thats fine.

I'm willing to overlook non next gen graphics in order to enjoy a game. Some people place more important on visuals, which is fine. I just hope too many games aren't developed with those people in mind.

Goronmon

11-14-2006, 08:25 AM

Fast in cars is as important as graphics in games.I would argue that a better analogy would be that a car's aesthetics are as important as graphics in games.

Anyways, the more you explain your point of view, the more I disagree with it.

Royal Fool

11-14-2006, 08:32 AM

This vlad guy is hilarious. He gets paid for trolling people?

I especially like how he goes to extremes with his arguments and thinks that if anyone likes Zelda they're immediately a "Nintendo fanboy" that won't accept any criticism whatsoever.

That's really good, coming from someone who's supposed to be an editor for a gaming website.

Serapth

11-14-2006, 08:37 AM

If you want to pretend that I said graphics should be ignored when discussing a game, thats fine.

I'm willing to overlook non next gen graphics in order to enjoy a game. Some people place more important on visuals, which is fine. I just hope too many games aren't developed with those people in mind.

I wasnt so much talking about you, I was talking about some of the fanboy speak thats been spewed in this thread. Your comment "place more importance on visuals, which is fine." places you firmly outside of that group. Many people dont seem to grasp this concept.

Serapth

11-14-2006, 08:39 AM

I would argue that a better analogy would be that a car's aesthetics are as important as graphics in games.

Anyways, the more you explain your point of view, the more I disagree with it.

I agree with that. That said, I think a car's aesthetics are probrably the number one factor in sales. Not many people will buy an ugly car with incredible mileage. We are a very image oriented soceity.

Royal Fool

11-14-2006, 08:47 AM

Serapth, did you put that quote in your signature because you agree with him or because you think it's funny?

Heretic Machine

11-14-2006, 08:48 AM

Graphics matter, that is just a simple fact. They do matter, and people do care. Ignoring them is just making excuses for companies and developers. That said, the Wii doesn't cost $400, $500, or $600. It costs $250, and from what I've seen, it gives you a lot of bang for your buck. But it would not be my first choice for the new generation of consoles (that being the 360), even if I hadn't already entered it.

Just to compare it to the PS3 and the 360, the Wii comes with the following: Wifi, free online gaming, wireless controllers, motion sensitive gameplay, and a web browser. That is for $250. If they charged $400, it's graphics could be on par with with the 360. Instead of that though, they opted to appeal to our wallets, and I think that is a fair choice.

digitalErich

11-14-2006, 08:50 AM

I agree with that. That said, I think a car's aesthetics are probrably the number one factor in sales. Not many people will buy an ugly car with incredible mileage. We are a very image oriented soceity.
The Honda Accord has been the best selling car (world wide) for something ridiculous like 18 of the last 20 years. I would not call any recent Accord particularly sexy. I do like the analogy though, as it shows there are people willing to put more stock in aesthetics than any other factor.

Serapth

11-14-2006, 08:56 AM

Serapth, did you put that quote in your signature because you agree with him or because you think it's funny?

Frankly a bit of both.

Royal Fool

11-14-2006, 09:13 AM

But it would not be my first choice for the new generation of consoles (that being the 360), even if I hadn't already entered it.
Oh, I completely agree with you there. The 360 is very much the current benchmark; the Wii and PS3 have a lot of catching up to do.

cp#

11-14-2006, 09:14 AM

The gap between "new Zelda" and "competitor products" has never been greater. Nintendo's using a product that could have been launched five years ago to go against the likes of Blue Dragon, Oblivion, Lair, and so on. The Zelda series has never looked so antiquated versus competition as it does now.

Everything is relative. Back in the day, a Ford Mustang stacked up well against its competitors. If Ford were to launch a 1971 Mustang against current competitors, however, the car world (and consumers) would laugh. It just doesn't compete against today's engines.

Fast in cars is as important as graphics in games. It's still possible to be fun without being fast in absolute terms (evidence: go kart racing), but it's hard to remain relevant without a product that can match the competition.

Are you even reading what you are saying? '71 Mustang > Today's Mustang.

Also, Zelda is going to smoke Oblivion, Blue Dragon, Lair, and so on in sales. I have Oblivion and it really isn't that great in my opinion. The graphics are great and with all of the user mods it can look even better but that doesn't make the game good (the fighting sucks, the leveling system is terrible, etc). Oblivion is dumbed down in comparison to Morrowind while on the other hand it looks like Twilight Princess is quite a step up in terms of size and graphics from all previous Zelda titles.

Heretic Machine

11-14-2006, 09:43 AM

Are you even reading what you are saying? '71 Mustang > Today's Mustang.

Also, Zelda is going to smoke Oblivion, Blue Dragon, Lair, and so on in sales. I have Oblivion and it really isn't that great in my opinion. The graphics are great and with all of the user mods it can look even better but that doesn't make the game good (the fighting sucks, the leveling system is terrible, etc). Oblivion is dumbed down in comparison to Morrowind while on the other hand it looks like Twilight Princess is quite a step up in terms of size and graphics from all previous Zelda titles.

I disagree with your comment on Oblivion combat. If anything, that was the best feature of the game.

Kefkataran

11-14-2006, 09:48 AM

Are you guys still arguing? Didn't you see mine or Bap's post? This isn't a big deal. Go on home, folks. Nothing to see here.

Serapth

11-14-2006, 10:49 AM

Are you guys still arguing? Didn't you see mine or Bap's post? This isn't a big deal. Go on home, folks. Nothing to see here.
Ego much? :)

MAbans

11-14-2006, 11:11 AM

Goronmon

11-14-2006, 11:33 AM

Are you guys still arguing? Didn't you see mine or Bap's post? This isn't a big deal. Go on home, folks. Nothing to see here.Out of your 12k posts, I'm sure there are a handful from topics that weren't a big deal. ;)

TheFlyingOrc

11-14-2006, 12:13 PM

Gameplay vs. graphics is a false dichotomy.

Gameplay requires sufficient graphics.

To repeat my chess example from earlier in this thread:

Chess, for instance, requires graphics. Without sufficient graphical fidelity to render two colors (for opposing sides) and 9 distinct units, the game is unplayable.

"Is that a pawn?"

"No, that pebble is a queen. This pebble here is a pawn. And that pebble there is a bishop. Checkmate."

"LoL, you can't checkmate my rook."

It's actually hard to navigate the world of Zelda in some places because even passageways blend into the muddy background. Puzzles should be difficult because they're cleverly designed, not because they're obfuscated.

Zelda's graphics make puzzles harder and make ordinary gameplay more onerous and less immersive. Graphics and gameplay interact. Each can either support or undermine the other.
__________________

There is an argument here, but the simple fact of the matter is you purposefully used the word "dichotomy" and talked about chess to make yourself sound smart. As you do in all your Joystiq posts. Go home, little man. Your kind is not wanted here.

vladcole

11-14-2006, 12:20 PM

Zeal

11-14-2006, 12:25 PM

TSA from The Hylia just gave TP a 9.6

http://www.thehylia.com/index.php?subaction=showfull&id=1163469393&archive=&start_from=&ucat=9&

He's the guy who did the OoT speedrun.

Ohhhh The Hylia huh. Oh snap.....just wow....The Hylia review is up....

Thank God someone is giving unbiased impressions. Phew.

Hylia up in this.

Goronmon

11-14-2006, 12:25 PM

What's with the anti-intellectualism? What's wrong with using polysyllabic words? I use the word "dichotomy" in daily speech, not just in my writing. It's part of the lexicon; it's fair game. No need to turn this into a class war. Games are for everyone, even big-word-haters from the Carolinas. ;)Someone got a Word-of-the-Day calender for his birthday. ;)

Goronmon

11-14-2006, 12:26 PM

Ohhhh the Hylia huh. Oh snap.....just wow....The Hylia review is up....Haha, yeah, I laughed when I saw that.

cp#

11-14-2006, 01:51 PM

Ohhhh The Hylia huh. Oh snap.....just wow....The Hylia review is up....

Thank God someone is giving unbiased impressions. Phew.

Hylia up in this.

Can't wait to see your impressions on Halo 3. Halo 1 was the best game ever, right? Roffle

Serapth

11-14-2006, 02:09 PM

Can't wait to see your impressions on Halo 3. Halo 1 was the best game ever, right? Roffle

Hey, Halo 1 was the best game ever released!!!!!

*if you are talking about the Xbox launch lineup FPS games that is*

Zeal

11-14-2006, 02:14 PM

And God made Halo on the seventh day...

And He saw that it was good.

::Moses lifts Ten Commandment tablets::

::lightning strikes them::

"11. Thou Shalt Play No Game Over Halo"

jonat3

11-14-2006, 02:33 PM

Ohhhh The Hylia huh. Oh snap.....just wow....The Hylia review is up....

Thank God someone is giving unbiased impressions. Phew.

Hylia up in this.

Ironically enough, their scores for lttp and OOT have been especially harsh, markedly below the average score. I believe lttp scored a 9.1 and OOT scored something like 9.2 with them (maybe i mixed them up?).

Lutheran

11-14-2006, 05:09 PM

Can't wait to see your impressions on Halo 3. Halo 1 was the best game ever, right? Roffle

LMAO , ya I can't wait for that either..

Kefkataran

11-14-2006, 08:25 PM

If I were one to change my sig often, my new sig would become from this day forward: "Hylia up in this."

Let it be known.

LogainAblar

11-14-2006, 08:50 PM

Kefkataran

11-14-2006, 09:00 PM

I love it when people bring up Nintendo's track record. The fact is, the Zelda franchise (along with the Mario and Metroid franchises) owes its success as much to nostalgia as anything else; objective scrutiny doesn't apply to these games, and you all know it.

I hope the game lives up to its potential, but for fuck's sake, grow up.

I completely disagree with this. There's definitely some nostalgia that adds to these gameplay experiences, but to say they hinge on them is a complete lie. Ocarina of Time and even Wind Waker (though to a much less extent) were good games because they were good games. Yes, part of the reason they were good games was successful emulation of elements that made previous Zelda games also good, but from an objective look at the gameplay on its own, they were good.

That's why another Zelda-esque game that's removed from the nostalgia quality that Zelda has (Okami on the PS2) is also simply a good game.

[VSK]BadCRC

11-14-2006, 09:09 PM

Sorry man, but you're wrong there. Zelda's appeal has nothing to do with nestalgia, and is instead based soley on the fact that Nintendo's core franchises are rock solid titles. I've never had to ask myself if I was going to or not going to like a Zelda, or any other Nintendo first party title, because Nintendo just seems to get it right, they get it right a lot.

Nintendo's first party game development methods are pretty unorthodox. They basically take a group of developers, split them into smaller groups, give them a game to develop, all of them develop the same game, and Miyamoto basically takes the best builds/concepts from those games and uses them in upcoming titles. The people who didn't make the cut are put on other projects.

Truthfully, I'm not aware of any other software developers that do their software this way, but it seems to work really well for Nintendo. And it really shows in the quality of their games, from their core franchises that they continue to develop and build upon to their new franchises.

shnastybiznastic

11-15-2006, 07:14 AM

As if anyone's still checking this thread...

As has been mentioned, apply whatever positive adjectives to the franchise as you like, but "innovative" stopped being applicable after OoT. Innovative would be the Adventure of Link, in comparison to the first Zelda. But hey, you know, adding magnetic boots and a wolf form is pretty great, too.
I wasn't being very sarcastic. I would actually like for someone to look up the word innovative and make sure that when we bandy it around, we are actually using it properly.

Repetition is not a bad thing, plenty of game franchises just offer permutations of the same formula, and that doesn't keep them from being fun if it's a formula you like. But it does keep them from being innovative. Don't sling that word around just because Nintendo's marketing drilled it into your skull.
Of course there are aspects of any franchise that are formulaic. I wanted specific examples, so I will actually understand what you are referring to. Here's an example:

Gears of War is formulaic because it offers almost no charicter development, an all-too-common dystopian future setting with little to distinguish it from its peers, and the typical "you need to plant this doohicky to kill all the bad aliens" overarching goal structure of every other sci-fi shooter out there.

disclaimer: I loved GoW. That was just an example.

shnastybiznastic

11-15-2006, 07:22 AM

What's with the anti-intellectualism? What's wrong with using polysyllabic words? I use the word "dichotomy" in daily speech, not just in my writing. It's part of the lexicon; it's fair game. No need to turn this into a class war. Games are for everyone, even big-word-haters from the Carolinas. ;)
The problem is that while many polysylabic words indicate precise differences within the umbrella of meaning allowed by thier shorter cousins, "dichotomy" is not one of them.

Goronmon

11-15-2006, 07:34 AM

shnastybiznastic

11-15-2006, 09:28 AM

Excuse me?
Look, it's pretty clear that LogianAblar, our new overloard, has realised the tyranny of a rampant fanboy the moment he saw it. We are marching on your home to burn you out and boil you in pitch, so stay right there... Our god-king wants your head, his scathing and flawlessly accurate ideals need to be personified by your destruction.

Run! His power level is approaching three-thousand! :D

LogainAblar

11-15-2006, 09:59 AM

I never said they were bad games, in fact I think most of the time they're great games. I grew up to Zelda just like everyone else here, and I thought that Ocarina of Time was just amazing (not too fond of the later installments though). But a great game doesn't always mean a large number of sales, as I'm sure I don't need to point out. Video game enthusiasts generally grew up playing Nintendo games, and are predisposed to thinking rather highly of as-of-yet unreleased Nintendo games. I can't imagine the number of people who have already labeled TP as a "classic".

As an example, nobody has really played Twilight Princess yet, but that hasn't stopped a mass effusion of attacks directed toward the editor of the posted article. The article may be found lacking in some fundamental aspects, but the sheer amount of negative feedback tells me that a good number of gamers have a soft spot for Nintendo.

I'm not saying that everyone here is a Nintendo fanboy, but I will say that everyone who has played video games for at least the last 10 years will probably have fond memories of Zelda, and so when Nintendo makes a half-way decent game in the franchise, it's automatically a success. So, at the risk of sounding even more like an asshole than I already do, I would like to tell all the people that have spent hours arguing with Vlad Cole to spent the same amount of time scrutinizing every other article posted; otherwise, your claims to objectivity hold no more merit than Vlad's.

Kefkataran

11-16-2006, 12:00 AM

I'm not saying that everyone here is a Nintendo fanboy, but I will say that everyone who has played video games for at least the last 10 years will probably have fond memories of Zelda, and so when Nintendo makes a half-way decent game in the franchise, it's automatically a success. So, at the risk of sounding even more like an asshole than I already do, I would like to tell all the people that have spent hours arguing with Vlad Cole to spent the same amount of time scrutinizing every other article posted; otherwise, your claims to objectivity hold no more merit than Vlad's.

This is, I think, a fair point. I never understood why everyone got so twisted out of shape over this article.