XBox 360 to have HD-DVD afterall?

[bapenguin]

Well, this came out of left field. Variety Online (http://www.variety.com/index.asp?layout=upsell_article&articleID=VR1117922513&categoryID=18&cs=1) (free reg required) is claiming Microsoft will announce non-exclusive HD-DVD Support this week.

What exactly is non-exclusive support? I guess we'll find out everything tomorrow. Full article posted inside.

[bapenguin]

Here is the full article:
Game for integration

At stake is a financial cut and control of the disc on which consumers spend tens of billions of dollars each year to see movies and TV shows and play videogames. Sony is already planning to integrate Blu-ray into the PlayStation 3, while Microsoft is expected to announce this week that HD DVD will be a non-exclusive component of the upcoming Xbox 360. Both next-generation gaming consoles will be used for DVD playback and home media networking.

Last month the two sides began quiet negotiations on a potential compromise. They are scheduled to hold meetings in Tokyo starting Monday.

Just prior to Toshiba's announcement Tuesday, the company issued a statement debunking reports from the Japanese media that an agreement was at hand. A short while later the company made its announcement about the two revisions to its proposed HD DVD format.

The HD DVD camp said Tuesday's announcement was aimed at swaying Disney over to the HD DVD side. Disney has no stake in underlying technology patent fees and has said its support of Blu-ray was non-exclusive in hopes that a single standard could emerge. But Disney has been vocal in its preference for the increased capacity of Blu-ray for the purposes of including more content and more interactivity.

Just pre-confab spin?

Officials at Disney and Sony had no official comment Tuesday, but sources within the Blu-ray camp dismissed the Toshiba announcement as rhetoric and strategic positioning on the eve of a Media Tech Expo in Las Vegas and just ahead of the meetings in Japan next week. None of the new technologies announced by Toshiba has been seen or approved by any of the necessary parties.

"We're pleased they're finally acknowledging more capacity is very important, but what they're talking about is theoretical and down-the-road," said Andy Parsons, senior VP of advanced products at Blu-ray backer Pioneer. "This doesn't help the chances for unification."

A spokesman for Toshiba acknowledged that the timing of the announcement was geared to Media Tech and that the technologies announced Tuesday would have to be approved by the DVD Forum, which could mean these optional components of the HD DVD may not be ready in time for the planned fourth-quarter launch.

[Reanimated]

Perhaps this is for a media center version of X360.

I don't believe that any base model consoles will ship with a next-gen drive. BRD and HDDVD drives are going to be WAY too expensive to be putting in 300 dollar consoles.

I think the likely scenario is that both X360 and PS3 will have media center versions that will cost more and have the next-gen drives.

Who knows though... I guess we'll see soon enough.

[bapenguin]

Good point Reanimated, and very likely.

[CaptStu]

You know, I am at a point where I just want the damn console out and in my living room.

[kokyunage]

And I'm willing to bet that these media center versions of the consoles won't be released this year with the base model.

[Royal Fool]

Non-exclusive, so what... will games be appearing in either formats?

[Varsity]

http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1998&

So what's going on?

[Klade]

That statement was supposedly denied by the companies involved Varsity. Whether its true anyway is up in the air according to some.

At any rate if HD-DVD is in xbox360 but everyone else in the world uses Blue-ray then it would probably end up being the strongest anti-pirating measure ever taken. I mean how much stronger can you get then your own optical disk format? Of course it will still be broken... in a lot of different ways... but its interesting to speculate wildly on.

[Adam Blue]

Unless I'm missing something, which I don't believe I am, HD-DVD seems the better format for the consumer, while not sacrificing quality. I see going with these new HD DVD's, be it BR or HD, would really be good for gaming. But it's really all about time.

[Goronmon]

I'll laugh if after all this HD-DVD and Blu-Ray controversy, some new format comes out in a couple years that smokes either two and dominates the market ;)

[bapenguin]

I'll laugh if after all this HD-DVD and Blu-Ray controversy, some new format comes out in a couple years that smokes either two and dominates the market ;)

Umm..that's going to happen anyway.

[Heretic Machine]

What the industry doesn't seem to understand is that consumers don't -want- a new format, so it's sort of stupid fight to have right now. MAYBE in ten years we'll see a new format start to build a market, but even that would be unlikely in my opinion.

[Klade]

What the industry doesn't seem to understand is that consumers don't -want- a new format, so it's sort of stupid fight to have right now. MAYBE in ten years we'll see a new format start to build a market, but even that would be unlikely in my opinion.

Thats where your wrong. There is a lot of call for a new format but only from those people that have the tricked out home theater systems. The reason being that they just payed X amount of money for a new HDTV (where X is a number greater then 1000) and now they want some way to watch movies on it while using the HD. DVDs can't do that so there needs to be a new format.

[crashedout]

Cause when I think reliable console news, I think Variety Online....it would be neat but it would be a boneheaded move now that both formats may be combined.

As for the need when you see DVD on a good HDTV 40" or larger, you realize how much we need a new format. The smart prediction says this may be the last media based format, after this using broadband may make be what we want.

[Azrikam]

Thats where your wrong. There is a lot of call for a new format but only from those people that have the tricked out home theater systems. The reason being that they just payed X amount of money for a new HDTV (where X is a number greater then 1000) and now they want some way to watch movies on it while using the HD. DVDs can't do that so there needs to be a new format.

This is a very small segment of the movie-buying market. Just ask high-end home theatre dealers... if you can find one.

[Roc Ingersol]

Frankly, if that 3 layer HD-DVD pans out (making it 45g vs 50g) - Blu-Ray's going to lose on cost. Particularly with the half-and-half transitional disc Toshiba's been touting.

My only question is: does this mean we're going to have to wait 6 months for the media center version of the neXtBox? Because it seems that November would be early for even a premium release of HD-DVD drives.

I'm more interested in a tuner and Tivo-style capability anyway - particularly since MS is sitting on all that cable/satellite set-top tech.

[dr_qwandry]

good god not another format. I know I read a while ago that DVD's would be around for five years until something else tries to steal the plate. But seriously I really don't need to buy the fifth element for the fifth time.

[bapenguin]

Thing is, the formats always start in the enthusiest market before making it mainstream. This is definitley something that needs to be figured out, it may not be as big as the "dvd revolution" but it's still a fairly large step in the evolution of digital media.

[netcraazzy]

What the industry doesn't seem to understand is that consumers don't -want- a new format, so it's sort of stupid fight to have right now. MAYBE in ten years we'll see a new format start to build a market, but even that would be unlikely in my opinion.

I think you may be half right on that Perigon. But it's not that consumer's don't WANT a new format it's more a matter of them not really having any motivation to PAY for a new format. I think just about everybody would love to have a nice shinny new HDTV and a HD-DVD or Blue-Ray disc player to go along with it, but realistically it's only going to be the home theaters buffs that are willing to spend the big bucks that are really going to buy this stuff when it first comes out. My guess is that your average Joe Wal-Mart consumer still thinks of DVD's as new and high-tech and pushing yet another format in their face will probably be met with minimal interest unless they have a good reason to upgrade, and unfortunately most people don’t' have HD-TVs. What really needs to happen is more HD content needs to be available on TV so that Joe Wal-Mart feels like he's missing out on something and has a reason to replace his 10 year old boob-tube with a HD-TV. Then once he has that new shinny HD-TV he'll be a lot more interested in those new fangled HD movie discs. In my opinion if Sony and Toshiba really wanted to sell their new formats, and more HD-TVs, they would spend less time fighting over a format and more time fighting with the big networks to get them to broadcast more stuff in HD.

[Reanimated]

I'll laugh if after all this HD-DVD and Blu-Ray controversy, some new format comes out in a couple years that smokes either two and dominates the market ;)




It's called HVD and it's already coming.

[Heretic Machine]

As for the need when you see DVD on a good HDTV 40" or larger

I'm sure Puff Daddy is real upset about that, but it's none of my fucking concern what .2% of the population needs out of a home theatre system. You think you're gonna find a bunch of Blu-ray movies in Wal-mart when only one out of a hundred people can buy them? You think studios would put out the money needed to fill the space on those discs just so they can sell a few hundred copies? No. Please give a warm welcome to the new laser disc, have fun with that.

[Reanimated]

I'm sure Puff Daddy is real upset about that, but it's none of my fucking concern what .2% of the population needs out of a home theatre system. You think you're gonna find a bunch of Blu-ray movies in Wal-mart when only one out of a hundred people can buy them? You think studios would put out the money needed to fill the space on those discs just so they can sell a few hundred copies? No. Please give a warm welcome to the new laser disc, have fun with that.




You hit the nail on the head there.

[crashedout]

Considering you can get good 40+ inch tv's for 1000 and the mandated change over to HDTV, I think there will be a large market building for these. This will not be the big switch from VHS to DVD, but it will be far larger than laser disc...the dvd change took a long time as well. I really see this supplanting DVD's rather then competing, at some break point people will just be buying the new.

As for Walmart, clearly they think HDTV is valid since they are ever increasing the
floorspace for new HD models...so maybe Joe Six-pack will be buying shortly to go with his new ilo plasma.

AND HD upscalling dvd players sell very well right now so there is some interest now.
Time will tell, it all depends on cost and software.

This arguement is null if there is not one standard though.

HVD is a lot like the old WORM drives that took a decade to become cd-r drives. Three years maybe but as we are seeing now, if they cannot get a large percentage of companies behind it....that would be a true succesor to the laser disc.

[[HATE]MyLife]

I'm sure Puff Daddy is real upset about that, but it's none of my fucking concern what .2% of the population needs out of a home theatre system. You think you're gonna find a bunch of Blu-ray movies in Wal-mart when only one out of a hundred people can buy them? You think studios would put out the money needed to fill the space on those discs just so they can sell a few hundred copies? No. Please give a warm welcome to the new laser disc, have fun with that.

You know, I can see the difference with my 30" HDTV, and I spent $1000 on that a year ago. Your argument that only the extravagantly wealthy can afford these TVs is getting ridiculous. I mean, if you're still using a 10" Black and White set and eating Top Ramen every day, this might be a little beyond your means. On the other hand, once you've got a job outside of the fast food industry, this kind of purchase should be within the realm of possibility. Also, considering how rapidly the cost of an entry-level HD set has dropped, they're far more affordable now than when I got mine. Now if the only new TV you'd consider is a gigantic LCD or Plasma, then I think you've got your sights set a little too high. In under a minute, I found you this HDTV (http://www.idealav.com/item.aspx?pid=54555) for under $800, and it's 43". Puts my TV to shame, as a matter of fact.

My point is, these are not ultra-luxury items now. Get with the times.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

I think the thing that's being overlooked here is that Blu-Ray and HD-DVD aren't really intended to be "formats for today." The studios and manufacturers don't see HD video as something that will be a hit right out of the gate; they're looking at it as a long-term strategy. They put the stuff out there within the next couple of years to satisfy the niche market that already owns HD sets. They get the ball rolling, work out the kinks, learn how to use the format, and make a little money. Then they wait while that niche market grows and grows (which is happening as we speak) and eventually becomes the mainstream. And when it does become mainstream, Joe Sixpack will be looking for HD movies for his lovely new HD set, and the studios and manufacturers will already have a widely adopted, standardized format on the shelves and ready to go. Meanwhile the fact that there's already an HD video format out there will help create its own demand; if people buy a PS3 with built-in Blu-Ray support (or a 360 with HD-DVD support) they might very well think "I've got this game console that supports HD video gaming and HD movies, maybe I should think about getting an HDTV." Keep in mind, of course, that a long format war between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray would complicate things; the ideal situation would be either a) a merger or b) one format loses quickly and the losers turn around and embrace the winner, in much the same way Sony embraced VHS after the failure of Beta. If that doesn't happen, all bets are off.

So to say that "HD video is going to be a niche thing like laserdisc for at least the next ten years or so" is basically accurate, but it doesn't really change anything, since the studios are already fully aware of this. Blu-Ray/HD-DVD aren't attempts to respond to an existing demand -- the studios have the same figures everyone else does, and they know just as well as anyone that HD is not mainstream yet. They're attempts to respond to an emerging demand. That's where I think the laserdisc comparison sort of falls down. LD never became mainstream because the emerging demand it responded to was "videophiles who are willing to spend $40-100 for a movie on a big bulky silver platter so as to get better video and sound quality and maybe a few extra features here and there." Suffice to say that there was such a group of people (otherwise LD wouldn't have survived as long as it did), but they were never going to be the mainstream. The emerging demand to which HD video is responding is "people who have upgraded to HDTV and actually want to get some use out of it," which is not really a select group anymore and is getting less and less select with every passing day.

[kokyunage]

mandated change over to HDTV

That mandate will get reversed. Both consumers and broadcasters aren't ready.

[Reanimated]

Actually there is no HDTV mandate from the FCC. The mandate is to move from analog broadcasts to all digital. This has absolutely nothing to do with the broadcast resolution. HD broadcasts will continue to lag WELL after the mandated switch to digital, which is ALSO lagging BTW.

In any event, a true next-gen DVD format won't be viable as a business model until somewhere near 2010, at which time MUCH better formats like HVD will be a major factor.

[bapenguin]

That mandate will get reversed. Both consumers and broadcasters aren't ready.

Not true, Broadcasters are more than ready. Last I read it's something like 96% of the stations have converted to digital broadcasting.

[Reanimated]

Last I heard, they were trying to get the FCC to extend the deadline.

Anyway, it has absolutely nothing to do with HD broadcasting. HD broadcasting will continue on it's current (slow) growth path for some time.

[crashedout]

You are right, the mandate is for digital not HD but most stations just went and upgraded anyway since they had to outlay the cost they might as well be ready. Most new programing from the networks has been in HD even WV and UPN, outside of reality tv and basic cable there is a fair amount of stuff out there. Most of the pay channels are in HD as well. 10 years is too far out, I figure 2 years for broad adoption since things move much faster now. We are just going to have to agree to disagree and see what time will tell.

For the migration, there is too much money to be made for it to be pushed back anymore, the FCC wants to auction those fequencies now. The broadcast flag is the issue now...whatever that should be easy enough to remove.

[mister_slim]

But how many TVs can convert digital signals, flag or no flag? Anyway, I was under the impression that HD DVD and HD-DVD were different things. I guess I'm confused.

[Pumped'Up]

LOL.

It has been recently announced that Blu-Ray is the new standard format. Guess Microsoft jumped the gun a wee too early on the 360. Move over Dreamcast and make room for the 360 in the coffin.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

It has been recently announced that Blu-Ray is the new standard format.

No it hasn't.

[netcraazzy]

LOL.

It has been recently announced that Blu-Ray is the new standard format. Guess Microsoft jumped the gun a wee too early on the 360. Move over Dreamcast and make room for the 360 in the coffin.

Even if Blu-Ray discs were to become the defacto standard today, that wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing for Microsoft. I think it was mentioned earlier in this post, it would be a great way to keep people from copying their games since there wouldn't be many devices out there that could read the discs. Just look at the PSP and its proprietary format.

[Pumped'Up]

Even if Blu-Ray discs were to become the defacto standard today, that wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing for Microsoft. I think it was mentioned earlier in this post, it would be a great way to keep people from copying their games since there wouldn't be many devices out there that could read the discs. Just look at the PSP and its proprietary format.
yes, piracy prevention like the GameCube. Too bad 360 owners will be screwed when they realize they can't play Blu-Ray movies on their $450 system.

[Pumped'Up]

No it hasn't.
yes it has, just google it.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

yes it has, just google it.

I have. I can find no evidence of any such announcement. There were reports (not an announcement) that the Blu-Ray and HD-DVD camps had agreed on a format incorporating Blu-Ray's 0.1mm physical format and the HD-DVD application layer -- which would basically be a victory for Blu-Ray -- but Toshiba (the principal mover behind HD-DVD) has denied (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/05/10/toshiba_slams_hd_claims/) this. If you have any evidence of an official announcement contradicting this, please link it.