1up Pulls Review of Neverwinter Nights 2 [Archive]

neblig

11-03-2006, 02:40 PM

A review of Neverwinter Nights was pulled from 1up.com. This is the first time in history that 1up has pulled a review. The review has also been pulled from the premier issue of Games For Windows magazine.

We have made a mistake.

The 1UP Network review of Neverwinter Nights 2, authored by Matt Peckham, has been officially retracted from 1UP.com and will not appear in the January issue of Games For Windows: The Official Magazine.

Upon further review of the author's text, listening to the feedback from our community and others, and after internal discussion between the 1UP and GFW editors, we have determined that the text of the review did not live up to our editorial standards. We respect the opinions of Mr. Peckham and all of our writers, but we felt that this particular review of Neverwinter Nights 2 did a disservice to fans of the RPG genre.

We have commissioned a new review by a different author to be published next week on 1UP.com, and in the January issue of Games For Windows.

We truly regret our error, and apologize to you, our readers.

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3154916

I almost pity the author of this review for his... career limiting maneuver. While flaming an otherwise highly-rated game in a review is a good way of attracting attention, it sometimes backfires.

Netami

11-03-2006, 03:31 PM

So... Was it taken down for being poorly written or did they just not want to flame a game that was giving them ad money?

Psykoboy2

11-03-2006, 03:31 PM

Hmm...wish I could have read it now. Anyone find a google cache or whatever it is?

Johan

11-03-2006, 03:32 PM

Without being able to read the review, it's hard to know if they were right or wrong.

Personally, I think the industry needs more independence in its reviews/previews, but what the hell do I know? Everything that's yet to come out is the best thing since sliced bread, and far too many games are "worthy of any (fill in the blank for genre type) player to enjoy and experience."

Bah! Phooey!

MrE

11-03-2006, 03:33 PM

Didn't the reviewer give this game like 50%? Wish I read the review as well.

-E

EvilBob46

11-03-2006, 03:34 PM

The original review was at this location AFAIK:
http://www.1up.com/do/reviewPage?cId=3154870
Cache of the above link anyone?

Netami

11-03-2006, 03:35 PM

Jeff Green had this to say about pulling it on his blog

"It wasn't the score. ...nor was it pressure from Atari. Nor was it even pressure from the fans.

It was our own sense that it could be perceived as an unfair review because of the many criticisms he made of D&D itself. I don't even necessarily think his opinion was "wrong"---I just feel it should have gone through another round of editing/rewriting so that it wouldn't be perceived that we had someone review the game who would have been inherently predisposed to NOT like it from the start."

So it looks like he pretty much just harshed on D&D and didn't do a whole lot of actual review? Hmm. Someone failed their rolls.

Murtaug

11-03-2006, 03:35 PM

I read this review last night/early this morning. It was pretty horrible all around. I am not exactly happy with Neverwinter, but he made some terrible points on the game, basically saying it only caters to the rule strict crowd and people who are sick of lugging their D&D books around (which is half of being a D&D player in my opinion.. carrying ninety pounds worth of books builds character damnit!)

It was also just full of obvious typos and pretty much poorly written all around. He gave it a 5/10.

disc

11-03-2006, 03:36 PM

The review was shit.

Netami

11-03-2006, 03:37 PM

If there's anything I wanted after playing D&D online, it's a rules-strict D&D game.

Hemalin

11-03-2006, 03:37 PM

It sounds like someone who doesn't like RPGs was given the task of reviewing RPGs.

KingGorilla

11-03-2006, 03:38 PM

GFW seems to do reviews by committee, several people playing the game and giving input. Maybe the reviewer's opinion did not sync up with others(overly generous or overly harsh). Maybe after the Enchanted Arms debauchery-I hate this game because it is exactly what it sets out to be(a Japanese RPG) GFW mistakenly gave the game to someone unfamiliar with Bioware's adaptation of Dungeons and Dragons rules in Neverwinter Nights games. The latter I see as most plausible, as the retraction specifically mentions "to the fans of the series."

What I am wondering why the pull the review, but not the 5.0 number. Most people in and out of the industry seem to focus so much on the number, not the text.

Rirath

11-03-2006, 03:50 PM

Not crazy about pulled reviews, but oh well. If they accept this guy as a writer they should probably suck it up and accept his score. But, things don't work that way. There's a whole lot of people to please in video game reviews, and they all have a hand in the final say. People who assign all of the blame for a review on the reviewer need to see the process these things go through.

Dakar

11-03-2006, 03:55 PM

My thing was the review didn't make sense. He basically gave D&D a 5/10 and said well since NWN2 is a D&D CRPG it gets a 5/10 too. He even says that if he liked D&D he might have given it an 8 or a 9. It was a really stupid review for him to write. It would be like giving Madden a 5/10 because it was "too much like football" and giving Blitz a 9/10 because it "made football fun". I even said to a friend today "How the hell did that review get past an editor."

dark_inchworm

11-03-2006, 04:09 PM

1UP reviews have always been far too critical. IGN, too forgiving. Two sites I avoid.

51|RandoM

11-03-2006, 04:11 PM

So... Was it taken down for being poorly written or did they just not want to flame a game that was giving them ad money?

They pulled it because it was more of an editorial than a review.

I tend to agree with much of what he said in the review, but I disagree when he blames most of it on adherence to the DnD ruleset. It isn't the ruleset that makes for boring gameplay.

Wombat

11-03-2006, 04:13 PM

I remember a review a bit like that from quite a few years ago when The Operational Art of War first came out. It was a minor site, I don't remember which, and the authors basic argument was that all turn based wargames are crap, therefore this is crap. He made no other arguments.

It's something you see occasionaly, someone reviewing the type of game, not the game itself.

51|RandoM

11-03-2006, 04:13 PM

Pulled this from a nwn2 forum post, for those who didn't catch it while it was up.

5/10
Quote: By Matt Peckham
This review appears in the January issue of Games For Windows: The Official Magazine.

----

As everything-the-original-did -- and more -- follow-ups go, Neverwinter Nights 2 deserves a banner&something like "mission accomplished." Think the sequel to Jurassic Park, where Spielberg's all "You want more dinosaurs? I'll show you more dinosaurs..." As a contemporary CRPG, on the other hand, NWN2 leaves a lot to be desired, and that's too bad, because these are the guys who brought us Planescape: Torment and Icewind Dale 2...and therefore they are the guys I'm least inclined to take issue with.

But issues exist, and defining them is really no more complex than saying, "Hello D&D superchrome, buh-bye storytelling and character development (you know, those things you're supposed to "immerse" yourself in)." The idea seems to be that we're meant to rah-rah about a superabundance of feats, spells, races, prestige (advanced) classes, and math-equation tickers full of the usual "I attack you with a +4 sword of --" booooooring. Fine, sure, dandy...but when is a "role" not a "role"? Simple: when it's a rule to a fault.

Ever loyal bites
I'm cruising for a bruising (don't I know it), but NWN2 is a splash of cold water to the face: A revelatory, polarizing experience that -- in the wake of newer, better alternatives -- makes you question the very notion of "RPG by numbers." It foists Wizards of the Coast's latest v3.5 D&D system (a molehill that's become a mountain at this point) onto your hard drive with stunning fidelity, then tacks on dozens of artificial-looking areas vaguely linked by forget-table plot points you check off like grocery to-do's.

Sure, the interface is sleeker with context-sensitive menus and a smart little bar that lets you more intuitively toggle modes like "power attack" and "stealth," but with all the added rule-shuffling, NWN2 seems like it's working twice as hard to accomplish half as much. Worse -- and blame this on games like Oblivion -- NWN2's levels feel pint-sized: Peewee zones inhabited by pull-string NPCs with no existence to speak of beyond their little playpens. Wander and you'll wonder why the forests, towns, and dungeons are like movie lots with lay-about monsters waiting patiently for you to trip their arbitrary triggers. As if the pencil and paper "module" approach were a virtue that computers -- by now demonstrably capable of simulating entire worlds with considerably more depth -- should emulate. It's like we're supposed to park half our brain in feature mania and the rest in nostalgic slush, and somehow call bingo.

The dungeons feel especially stale, so linear and inorganic they might as well be graph-paper lifts filled with room after room of pop-up bogeymen (Doom put them in closets; NWN2 just makes the closets bigger). Maybe you'd rather chat with the dumb NPCs that speak and sound like extras in a bad Saturday morning cartoon? Oh, boy -- there's the portrait "plus" sign! Time to shuffle another party member (improved to four simultaneous) through the level-up grinder, which you can click "recommend" to zip past...but then, what's the point?

Rule-playing game
In all fairness, it's not entirely developer Obsidian's fault. D&D certainly puts the "rule" in role-playing, and a madcap base of D&D aficionados is no doubt ready to string me up for suggesting that faithful is here tantamount to folly (to these people, I say: "Go for it, NWN2's all you've ever wanted and more"). Call me crazy -- I guess I'm just finally weary of being led around on a pencil-and-paper leash and batting numbers around a glorified three-dimensional spreadsheet in a computer translation that should have synthesized, not forklifted.

That five-of-10 is actually a hedge, by the way. For D&D fans who want to play an amazingly thorough PC translation of the system they're carting around in book form, it's proba-bly closer an eight or nine. But if, like me, you want less "rules for rule's sake" and more depth and beauty to your simulated game worlds, you can certainly find more exciting prospects. Part of the reason we call them "the good old days" and think fondly of games past is that it's always easier to love what we don't have to play anymore.

Quoted from http://www.1up.com/do/reviewPage?cId=3154870 , now producing a Null Pointer error.

J Arcane

11-03-2006, 04:14 PM

The original review was at this location AFAIK:
http://www.1up.com/do/reviewPage?cId=3154870
Cache of the above link anyone?
Sadly 1up.com blocks archive.org's webcrawlers, so I couldn't pull up the cache there, and I've yet to find a way to direct acess Google's Cache.

Johan

11-03-2006, 04:19 PM

51|RandoM: Thanks for posting that!

It's not horrific, but it does come across as his having a predisposition against the very foundation of the game; the D&D rules set.

I love NWN, and regardless of review, I'll be buying it when I can afford it (YEARS, sadly :().

independentcreator

11-03-2006, 04:25 PM

I'd actually like to see more reviews like that, even though I'm going to pick up the game. :)

If 1up's concerned about hitting their audience, they could do like EGM and put 3 reviews up for every game. Find someone who's a D&D die-hard, have him write a review. Find, uh... this guy, and have him write a review. Everybody's happy.

The_Reckoning

11-03-2006, 04:25 PM

What a plie of shit of a review. He should be fired. He's criticising the game for following the fucking ruleset it's based on, like the Enc. Arms reviewer.

It's like seeing a bond film and saying "Well why does he have to use the gun?" or listening to rap and saying "Why are they talking so fast? Can't they talk at a normal speed!?"

Wyrm

11-03-2006, 04:26 PM

Doesn't seem like a bad review to me. I'd agree with a few of his points based on what I've seen so far. Maybe a little harsh, but a review is an opinion. If he isn't allowed to express his...

51|RandoM

11-03-2006, 04:27 PM

snubber

11-03-2006, 04:30 PM

I understand why people have a problem with the review -- it does criticize the rules more than the game. That being said, although I'm fine with the strict p'n'p rules (and even like them to some extent), as an RPG it _does_ have all the terrible flaws he mentioned:

+ "pull-string NPCs with no existence to speak of beyond their little playpens."
+ "lay-about monsters waiting patiently for you to trip their arbitrary triggers."
+ "dungeons feel especially stale, so linear and inorganic"
+ "forget-table plot points you check off like grocery to-do's"

reimomo

11-03-2006, 04:31 PM

SymetriX

11-03-2006, 04:36 PM

Pulled this from a nwn2 forum post, for those who didn't catch it while it was up.

*SNIP!*

Wow, I heard people complaining that the 1UP review sounded like it was written by a 4-year-old, but I didn't actually bother to read it until now.

That's an insult to 4-year-olds!

Here are some literary gems from the article:

Think the sequel to Jurassic Park, where Spielberg's all "You want more dinosaurs? I'll show you more dinosaurs..."
Is that ghetto slang or something?

But issues exist, and defining them is really no more complex than saying, "Hello D&D superchrome, buh-bye storytelling and character development (you know, those things you're supposed to "immerse" yourself in)."
How on earth did that sentence get by the editors? Not only is he putting parentheses inside of his self-quote, but he's also using quotes within the parentheses within the self-quote. What would that be, a self-self-quote?

...full of the usual "I attack you with a +4 sword of --" booooooring.
I feel embarrassed for the guy who wrote this...

Maybe you'd rather chat with the dumb NPCs that speak and sound like extras in a bad Saturday morning cartoon?
I didn't think it was possible to troll in your own editorial piece, but I think this guy has somehow managed to do that.

I guess I'm just finally weary of being led around on a pencil-and-paper leash and batting numbers around a glorified three-dimensional spreadsheet in a computer translation that should have synthesized, not forklifted.
I kept waiting to read the part at the end where he says "... but that's just my opinion, I could be wrong!"

What a literary disaster... somebody needs to find some more of this guy's work and see if he was just hitting the bottle too much, or if they're just letting anyone write game reviews these days. No wonder people don't respect gaming journalism.

ilian

11-03-2006, 04:43 PM

Terrible writing style, but sounded like a perfectly legit opinion. Didnt they know if he could write or not before that article? It is written like a random forum post somewhere.

Oblivion

11-03-2006, 04:46 PM

reimomo

11-03-2006, 04:53 PM

patch? driver update? if you bought the game at least you should try something to get your money's worth.

I patched. Newest nvidia driver installed. At 800x600, staring at the ground with the camera zoomed in all the way, by the fighting arena at the start of the game, I'm getting 35 frames per second.

Save your money.

Serapth

11-03-2006, 04:56 PM

I was pretty down on it at first, but after the first patch and the new nvidia driver at least the performance issues are gone and the game looks much better.

Additionally, Act II is giving me more of that BG/BG2 feel, whereas Act I is either step and kill it, or step and kill it, then fetch it, ad nauseum.

I am down on it still. But im still in Act I and my technical problems havent been fixed.

So far though, Act I is pretty close to shit. Its gotten a bit better now that the NPC have changed and I got the Dwarf. The initial NPCs and Quests are laughably fucking bad and the starting task really feel lame. That and the first dungeon is fucking pathetic.

On top of that, it is an AD&D rule wankfest, it really is. I have never played a game that made the rules so obvious as this game. Thing is, I enjoy that, but I can see how someone would rank this game harshly because of it.

Finally, and the author doesnt even touch on it, but this game is buggy as fuck out of the gate. A number ( check the support forums ) of people are having massive trouble getting this game to run. I am talking seriously powerfull gaming machines running this game like a slideshow in 800x600 resolution with all options turned off. On technical merits alone, this game should lose 2 points out of 10 based purely off its technical state when it shipped. ( Think Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil... and your damned close, without the format your HD bug ).

Frankly, unless you play this game, dont be too quick to damn this review as it isnt that far off the mark ( from a certain mindset ) and went incredibly easy on the game in other areas ( aka... bugs ). The only thing I question is the final score... in this day and age, only complete shit games get a 5 out of 10. NWN is not completely a shit game, only parts of it are.

That said, its pretty obvious this game was rushed out the door by the financially troubled atari. I think there may be a good game in there somewhere, buts its fucking painful to try and get at it. If things dont improve in the next week or so, im going to return it.

... so, until you play the game, dont condemn this review that much. NWN2 has more then its share of faults.

OrangePulp

11-03-2006, 04:56 PM

Spigot

11-03-2006, 04:57 PM

Wow. Yeah... That review was horribly written. That in itself should have warranted a pull.

And I'll agree with everyone else. It sounds more like it was a review handed to someone who did not enjoy the genre or at least not western RPG's given the complaints he had about the underlying rules structure.

It'd be like giving the review of FFXII to someone who only enjoyed playing EA sports games.

Of course, sometimes you find the kind of game that does reach out from a genre to those who dislike it. Those are usually good counterpoint reviews, not main reviews.

Serapth

11-03-2006, 05:08 PM

It'd be like giving the review of FFXII to someone who only enjoyed playing EA sports games.

You know what... I dont think that is any worse then the alternative. Most magazines give reviews to rabid fans of that genre. Is having a jRPG fanboy reviewing FFXII really that much better?

Either way, most reviews are fundamentally flawed. Either from bias or hate, but there are definate flaws.

ilian

11-03-2006, 05:08 PM

My question was, after reading the review, did he not understand that a DnD based game is a kind of sub-genre of RPGs? Or does he think that it's fine to give a bad review to a game simply because you don't like said genre? I don't like soccer games, but that doesn't mean I think all soccer games deserve a 5/10 rating.

Also, his writing sucked, big time.

I read his review, and he seemed to be giving it negative marks on very legit things, not because he disliked the genre. He was saying the story was terrible, the characters were shallow, the enviornments were small, and the dungeon design was uninspired. As a D&D lover sounds like pretty big negatives to me. And Yeah, his writing did suck big time.

Kefkataran

11-03-2006, 05:10 PM

Serapth

11-03-2006, 05:11 PM

I read his review, and he seemed to be giving it negative marks on very legit things, not because he disliked the genre. He was saying the story was terrible, the characters were shallow, the enviornments were small, and the dungeon design was uninspired. As a D&D lover sounds like pretty big negatives to me. And Yeah, his writing did suck big time.

... and from my first hour or so with the game, all of that is true. Characters are shallow, the dungeon sofar was shit, the environments ( especially contrasted as he has done with Oblivion ) are tiny and the story is very meh.

Plus, the game is buggy as fuck.

Disclosure though... I have only just started. Like I said earlier, I just met a dwarf in the game proper with dialog as good or better then Dekon from NWN 1. Until this point, everything seemed worse.

DeadScreenSky

11-03-2006, 05:13 PM

Seems like an opinionated but fair review that definitely needed some further editing. Sure, he slams it for being too much of a D&D sim (a legit if not universal complaint IMO), but he also tears it apart for a lot of other major problems.

Kefkataran

11-03-2006, 05:20 PM

rein

11-03-2006, 05:24 PM

Yeah, that review isn't well-written or well-informed at all, IMO. I can see why they pulled it, but what's distressing is that it got accepted at all in the first place. Oh well, glad that they realized their mistake before it was in print at least.

I agree Kef, do editors not proof read articles and reviews before they go up? Maybe that is the problem and the print magazine editors caught it and said no way.

Serapth

11-03-2006, 05:25 PM

The guy didn't like D&D and they had him reviewing a D&D game. That'd be fine on some random website where someone's editorializing but for a big gaming magazine, it just doesn't work that way and shouldn't. The idea is that if you're interested in the game, you'll read the review. But if you're already interested, you're going to want a review from someone else who's going in interested in that genre/style of game as well.
... I wouldnt say that

As a contemporary CRPG, on the other hand, NWN2 leaves a lot to be desired, and that's too bad, because these are the guys who brought us Planescape: Torment and Icewind Dale 2...and therefore they are the guys I'm least inclined to take issue with.

Obviously he liked PS:T and ID2, so he isnt anti AD&D. He is either anti 3.5e or doesnt like the rule fetish of NWN2. Its a legit point too, as they rule do push the number in your face, and if you arent a fan of seeing the mechanics behind the scenes in a computer game its legit.

It does take it too far though I agree to that. But, until you have played NWN2 you dont realize just how numbers oriented it is.

Kefkataran

11-03-2006, 05:28 PM

I agree Kef, do editors not proof read articles and reviews before they go up? Maybe that is the problem and the print magazine editors caught it and said no way.

Perhaps, rein. I tossed an e-mail with some questions on the issue to Jeff Green of Games for Windows and Garnett Lee of 1Up. If they get back to me, I'll let you guys know what they had to say.

... I wouldnt say that

Yes, but I'm willing to bet that you, like most of the vocal people on EvAv, are not a big magazine reader. You're not the crowd the magazines are aiming towards, and what's important is that they keep that crowd in mind. Either way, even if you agree with the ideas behind the review, there's no denying how badly written it is. It's lacks clarity and is just generally... bad.

Obviously he liked PS:T and ID2, so he isnt anti AD&D. He is either anti 3.5e or doesnt like the rule fetish of NWN2. Its a legit point too, as they rule do push the number in your face, and if you arent a fan of seeing the mechanics behind the scenes in a computer game its legit.

It does take it too far though I agree to that. But, until you have played NWN2 you dont realize just how numbers oriented it is.

Good points. Another thing worth considering: what the final review will look like. This is going to be of much interest in relation to this issue, IMO. If it ends up being waaaay too easy on the game, then it's really time to start complaining.

Feltoar

11-03-2006, 05:32 PM

That review is pathetic, if I had never heard of NWN or NWN2 before, I would have no idea what he is on about and the only thing I would have learned from that review is that its based on D&D.

Shockingly written, completely useless to someone after information and like everyone else said it harps on what it was supposed to be; a D&D game. The idiot didnt even mention multiplayer either.

Serapth

11-03-2006, 05:34 PM

Yes, but I'm willing to bet that you, like most of the vocal people on EvAv, are not a big magazine reader. You're not the crowd the magazines are aiming towards, and what's important is that they keep that crowd in mind. Either way, even if you agree with the ideas behind the review, there's no denying how badly written it is. It's lacks clarity and is just generally... bad.

... trying to decide if "vocal" is an insult or compliment....... ;)

Actually, I buy a couple magazines a month. Generally just Game Informer and Computer Gaming World with the occasional PC Gamer thrown in. There isnt alot of reason anymore as the internet has made gaming mags mostly a relic of the past ( they just cant keep up... ). But, old habits die hard.

That said, I read when I go to the bathroom, and the toilet is just super comfy sometimes. You need reading material dont you know... plus, my wife thinks it just sick when I bring my laptop into the bathroom with me, so I only do that when she isnt home... :D

I will agree... the writing in his review isnt great. That said, the writing in most reviews in print magazines is usually pretty horrid, especially magazines like EGM or Play.

Kefkataran

11-03-2006, 05:39 PM

... trying to decide if "vocal" is an insult or compliment.......

Neither. :) But obviously I'm one of the most vocal on EvAv, so not too much of an insult, I hope.

I will agree... the writing in his review isnt great. That said, the writing in most reviews in print magazines is usually pretty horrid, especially magazines like EGM or Play.

EGM and a lot of other mags (never read Play), it's not great, but I've never read anything in EGM in the last two years that's close to that bad. And CGW certainly is one of the best-written game rags out there, so it's not up to those standards for sure.

Serapth

11-03-2006, 05:49 PM

EGM and a lot of other mags (never read Play), it's not great, but I've never read anything in EGM in the last two years that's close to that bad. And CGW certainly is one of the best-written game rags out there, so it's not up to those standards for sure.

CGW is actually a very well written magazine, thats why it tends to be the one I pick up most often. Then again, I also feel CGW targets an older ( 25+ ) demographic. I have read alot of crap in EGM, but I havent read in recent years so it may have improved greatly.

Play is pure cancer, it doesnt deserve the tree's that died to print it. In the few issues I have read, they have contained atleast one writeup/review that is as bad, or worse then this 1UP NWN2 review. That magazine is truly complete shit.

tombofsoldier

11-03-2006, 05:49 PM

Serapth

11-03-2006, 05:57 PM

Guess I won't be touching this thing then. Not based on a bad writer who probably wouldn't have liked the originals review. But on how you kind people don't seem to like it. thing is, I really want a good RPG damnit. Unfortunately Oblivion felt like shit to me, Gothic 3 is buggy as hell, and now this. Here's to hoping Mass Effect comes out soon.

I think underneath all the shit and after the opening, there is a great game in NWN2. Just not out of the box. Give it a month or two, then ask people for their opinions. Obsidion/Atari need to get some patches out. Given that on day two we already saw patch number 1, I expect it to be pretty quick.

Ask people there opinions in a few weeks before making your decision. Right now though, unless the store has a very liberal return policy, I wouldnt recommend the game to anybody.

Spigot

11-03-2006, 06:05 PM

You know what... I dont think that is any worse then the alternative. Most magazines give reviews to rabid fans of that genre. Is having a jRPG fanboy reviewing FFXII really that much better?

Either way, most reviews are fundamentally flawed. Either from bias or hate, but there are definate flaws.
I'm not saying you can only have games reviewed by people who absolutely love that particular genre. However, giving the game to someone who has an axe to grind about a particular series or game style is probably the worse of the two evils.

While I really don't care for sports games in the least, I can at least appreciate what they're trying to do and if I were tasked with reviewing one, I'd try to review it on its merits. I might not notice things that a hardcore sports gamer would notice, but I could at least judge it on its merits.

If I went into that review with the mindset of, "I Hate Sports Games And So Should You" (which seems to be the mindset of this reviewer, at least with regards to the core D&D rules that underlie the gameplay), that would be wrong.

Of course, if the game is buggier than an 8 day old corpse, then it should be mentioned in the review.

Kefkataran

11-03-2006, 06:07 PM

Play is pure cancer, it doesnt deserve the tree's that died to print it. In the few issues I have read, they have contained atleast one writeup/review that is as bad, or worse then this 1UP NWN2 review. That magazine is truly complete shit.

Euch. I might pick up a copy some time just to see how bad it is.

You know what... I dont think that is any worse then the alternative. Most magazines give reviews to rabid fans of that genre. Is having a jRPG fanboy reviewing FFXII really that much better?

You don't want a fanboy, but you do want someone who knows the genre well enough to understand the negatives and positives of a game based in that genre -- where it moves the genre forward AND holds it back.

Serapth

11-03-2006, 06:12 PM

While I really don't care for sports games in the least, I can at least appreciate what they're trying to do and if I were tasked with reviewing one, I'd try to review it on its merits. I might not notice things that a hardcore sports gamer would notice, but I could at least judge it on its merits.

This is a good example of what im trying to say. I have seen sports games reviewed by die hard sports gamers that condemn the game for say... implementing a rule differently from the league interpretation. Or, condemning a game for including "trivial fluff" like the ability to set consession prices. This is another example of how being a genre fan can be just as harmful as being a hater.

A casual football fan might love the hell out of the fact they get an economic sim to go with their game. But a sports fan might hate the fact the game focuses on "non core" actions.

This is why most reviews are flawed. Its just one persons opinion... there is nothing wrong or right about that.

Chromehounds is a perfect example of a game that cant be reviewed. You either loved the online, or you despised the game. So this game either got high ratings, or abysmal ones. Games cant be rated like say... cars are by consumer reports. And even car ratings are subjective as hell, but atleast they can look at tangible things like fuel efficency and safety ratings. Even still, if a volvo is rated 10/10 on mileage and fuel efficency... if im looking for a sports car, that still doesnt mean shit to me.

.... guess ratings in general just kinda suck. Im all for the idea of getting rid of numeric scores.

Serapth

11-03-2006, 06:15 PM

You don't want a fanboy, but you do want someone who knows the genre well enough to understand the negatives and positives of a game based in that genre -- where it moves the genre forward AND holds it back.

Why is this true for games but not say... movies. I mean, Siskel and Ebert reviewed all movies, not just "genres" they liked. Why should games be treated differently?

The biggest problem with magazine reviews is they cant hire objective qualified staff or they take the wrong approach.

Kefkataran

11-03-2006, 06:16 PM

Chromehounds is a perfect example of a game that cant be reviewed. You either loved the online, or you despised the game. So this game either got high ratings, or abysmal ones. Games cant be rated like say... cars are by consumer reports. And even car ratings are subjective as hell, but atleast they can look at tangible things like fuel efficency and safety ratings. Even still, if a volvo is rated 10/10 on mileage and fuel efficency... if im looking for a sports car, that still doesnt mean shit to me.

.... guess ratings in general just kinda suck. Im all for the idea of getting rid of numeric scores.

Oh I totally agree with this. The more casual fans have a huge bitchfest when there's no points though. Just look at any thread on EvAv where we post quotes from a review but don't mention the score that the game is given. Maaaan, people hate that. That said, the review system isn't perfect, but it is evolving in the only ways that I think it acceptably can for the mass market that must be appealed to. Some mags, like GFW, are definitely on the cutting edge of this.

Why is this true for games but not say... movies. I mean, Siskel and Ebert reviewed all movies, not just "genres" they liked. Why should games be treated differently?

That makes it true for movies as well. Siskel and Ebert review all the movies so in THEORY they have a grasp on all the genres and can know the good/bad of all and what moves them forward/holds them back in any particular film. Just like any one gamer can do with multiple genres. I never said you couldn't have a guy who knows/reviews sports games who also does so with RPGs.

Ultima Thulian

11-03-2006, 06:33 PM

My review of the Peckham NWN2 review:

It sucks.

End review.

51|RandoM

11-03-2006, 06:33 PM

But on how you kind people don't seem to like it. thing is, I really want a good RPG damnit.

There will be good roleplaying had with NWN2. That roleplaying just won't ship in the box.

Same story as NWN...

ProfPuppet

11-03-2006, 06:39 PM

I give it a 5/10 for running like ass.

9 frames per second at 1024x768 resolution, with all options turned off (shadows mip-map etc), low res textures, as low as everything goes. 5 fps at 1600x1200 with everything turned on.

AMD XP 3700+ 2GB RAM 7900GT video card.

Weaksauce. I am short of the RECOMMENDED spec only by the CPU clock, where I still exceed the minimum. Game is unplayable, kthxbai.

All of these might sound kind of stupid and no-duh, but *shrugs* it's something to try anyway.

1- Run Ewido anti-spyware. http://www.ewido.net/en/
A family member had a similar problem, had no idea what was wrong, and it turns out that she had a couple spyware things absolutely killing system performance- AVG Free didn't catch them, nor did Spybot Search and Destroy.

2- Check disk space and then scandisk/defragment your computer, and perhaps run a registry cleaner.

3- Check driver versions of DirectX, video, and sound cards.

4- Turn down sound quality in the game.
You'd be surprised how much this can kill a system in some programs.

5- Try running 3DMark after this to see if it's just crap coding on NWN2.

Loganrapp

11-03-2006, 06:58 PM

It sounds like someone who doesn't like RPGs was given the task of reviewing RPGs.

That's my guess, so I'm thinking it's not a "career limiting" review. Chances are, someone read the review, was all "WTF?" then realized the guy writing it didn't like RPGs to begin with!

This would go with Kirkus Review and Publisher's Weekly, if you want to find a comparison - you wouldn't have a fantasy reader/reviewer look at a Lawrence Block (mystery) novel and review it, would you?

The guy could simply be a dick and was told off by 1UP. I won't say that's not a possibility.

---

The reason Ebert and Roeper/Siskel are different is because movies are different in that they are a cold media. Yes, you're in the theater, yes, you're not doing anything but watching, but it's still a passive media. (Don't think of me dishing out on movies, beings that I want to make them for a living.)

Video games and books both require your complete and undivided attention. You have to use your hands to operate them both properly. With a movie, you're capable of watching a wide range of films. Everyone's movie tastes are probably a lot more forgiving than their video game (if they play them) or book (if they read them) tastes. It doesn't stop at critics, there.

Serapth

11-03-2006, 07:00 PM

All of these might sound kind of stupid and no-duh, but *shrugs* it's something to try anyway.

1- Run Ewido anti-spyware. http://www.ewido.net/en/
A family member had a similar problem, had no idea what was wrong, and it turns out that she had a couple spyware things absolutely killing system performance- AVG Free didn't catch them, nor did Spybot Search and Destroy.

2- Check disk space and then scandisk/defragment your computer, and perhaps run a registry cleaner.

3- Check driver versions of DirectX, video, and sound cards.

4- Turn down sound quality in the game.
You'd be surprised how much this can kill a system in some programs.

5- Try running 3DMark after this to see if it's just crap coding on NWN2.

In my case, I *JUST* got my laptop back from getting the main board replaced. So, no spyware/viruses, fresh XP Sp2 install, newest DX and nVidia drivers, and all settings turned down to nothing.

Simply put, the game code is fucked. I think in my case it might be the dual core cpus that are causing the problems based on whats happening.

For reference... my 20ish FPS if that, are running at 800x600 with everything turned to minimum.

The machine is:
Dual Core 1.83 mhz intel ( all power savings options turned off)
nVidia 256meg Quadro 350m
4 gigs of Ran
7200 rpm SATA drive

Point blank, this machine runs every new game flawlessly, but when it comes to NWN2, it chugs like it was a 386. NWN2 has bugs that kill certain systems.

Citizen Philip

11-03-2006, 08:15 PM

The machine is:
Dual Core 1.83 mhz intel ( all power savings options turned off)
nVidia 256meg Quadro 350m
4 gigs of Ran
7200 rpm SATA drive

Point blank, this machine runs every new game flawlessly, but when it comes to NWN2, it chugs like it was a 386. NWN2 has bugs that kill certain systems.

That is a laptop?.. Your bottleneck is the video device, as a 350M is akin to a 7300 which is about: 7300 = 4 PSUs, 3 vertex units, 4 ROPs. And it's a 'business' GPU, ergo it's clocked much slower.

---

I'm definitely not saying it's not the game, but man - never play games on a laptop! It's painful :(

It's running fine on my system, not a bug or an issue.

dac5

11-03-2006, 08:50 PM

Terribly written review--He must've been under the influence of something when he wrote that. seems like a PO'd muthaf'er going postal.

But seriously now, NVN sucks compared to BG. Bring on a new Baldurs Gate, pllllllease!

Serapth

11-03-2006, 08:51 PM

That is a laptop?.. Your bottleneck is the video device, as a 350M is akin to a 7300 which is about: 7300 = 4 PSUs, 3 vertex units, 4 ROPs. And it's a 'business' GPU, ergo it's clocked much slower.

---

I'm definitely not saying it's not the game, but man - never play games on a laptop! It's painful :(

It's running fine on my system, not a bug or an issue.

I agree, its not a gamer card, its optimized towards CAD, but so far as laptops go, it still kicks the shit out of most options out there. Its fully PS3 and DX9.0c complient and runs EVERY other game I throw at it without issues. This biggest bottleneck with this card is the memory bus, limited at *cough* only 7 gig/sec of bandwidth. It is a PCI-express card.

I dont expect it to run games perfectly, but I dont expect to have to run at 800x600 with all graphics options set to minimal or off to get approx 15 frames a second. Especially when the same card can run Oblivion at 1920x1280 at > 30fps. Oblivion is way more graphically demanding then NWN2.

From reading NWN2 forums, im really starting to think its the Dual core intel CPU that is causing the problems. There have been a ton of complaints from people with dual procs.

Oh, and im running standard GeForce drivers at this point, as the Quadro drivers are optomized for CAD. Fucked part is, I can run Maya ( 3D commerical package ), and push an image with 1mil+ polys and it doesnt stutter in the least.

Point blank, something is wrong with NWN2's code on certain machines. A quick look at their support forums will show you that. Many people are reporting their problems started after the 1.01 patch, but I cant verify that.

I can get the game playable, but on a laptop, running at 800x600 on an LCD screen that is meant to run 1920x1200, is just fugly. Plus, running with shadows and most texture options off, makes it even fuglier.

Laptop or now, this machine should be more then capable of running this game. Like I said, it runs every other game ive thrown at it, at full settings, even games considered demanding ( Oblivion, Fear, etc...)

J Arcane

11-03-2006, 08:57 PM

Guess I won't be touching this thing then. Not based on a bad writer who probably wouldn't have liked the originals review. But on how you kind people don't seem to like it. thing is, I really want a good RPG damnit. Unfortunately Oblivion felt like shit to me, Gothic 3 is buggy as hell, and now this. Here's to hoping Mass Effect comes out soon.
I'm enjoying the goddamn hell out of my Warlock. Eldritch blast FTW. It's a great game so far, though the guy who plays your foster father is one of the worst damn voice actors I've seen in a game, so far the only real low point was the dialogue with him at the beginning of the tutorial with him.

The controls were different from what I'm used to, so that took a bit of getting used to. There are also some very random and unpredictable issues with people's machines not running it when they should be able to, but I haven't had said problem at all. My friend's 6600 runs it just fine.

Remember, never discount the Peter Moore Effect. A problem can be very small, but message board whiners have a habit of blowing it way otu of proportion.

Serapth

11-03-2006, 09:06 PM

I'm enjoying the goddamn hell out of my Warlock. Eldritch blast FTW. It's a great game so far, though the guy who plays your foster father is one of the worst damn voice actors I've seen in a game, so far the only real low point was the dialogue with him at the beginning of the tutorial with him.

The controls were different from what I'm used to, so that took a bit of getting used to. There are also some very random and unpredictable issues with people's machines not running it when they should be able to, but I haven't had said problem at all. My friend's 6600 runs it just fine.

Remember, never discount the Peter Moore Effect. A problem can be very small, but message board whiners have a habit of blowing it way otu of proportion.

...FYI, apparantly at around level 10, the Warlock class is supposed to be bugged.

Just letting you know so you dont sink too much time into the game before having to restart and become one of those whiners you mention.

Plus, in the case of NWN2... those whiners seem to be well... almost everyone with a cutting edge system. Thats kinda a double edged pissoff. I could understand if I was trying to play the game on 2 year old hardware and it not working, but the people that seem to be having an issue with this game all seem to have high end < 1 year old systems, myself included.

Royal Fool

11-03-2006, 09:23 PM

laggerific

11-03-2006, 09:41 PM

I don't get what's up with RPGs running like ASS. It reminds me of Ultima 9 with its horrific performance which was better with a worse card (voodoo2 vs. TNT).

I never picked up NWN, but my friend bought every expansion for it and loved them, so I feel that NWN2 has a good future, so I'm not worried about having it in my collection. I hope it can live up to its predecessors legacy.

Serapth

11-03-2006, 09:55 PM

An Obsidian game bugged to hell right at launch? Hmm, that's two strikes. Hope their third release won't be broken at release too. This is eerily similar to KotOR II.

If the piece that 51|RandoM quoted is the whole review, I'd have to say that it's terrible. It utterly fails to explain the game properly to people (even as a sequel, you'd at least have to touch upon the basics for newcomers).

Quite terrible.

In this case, I wouldnt blame Obsidian at all. Atari has been doing some desperate things lately to stave off going broke. I would probrably put most of the blame on them. Granted, this is just speculating.

Mason

11-03-2006, 10:05 PM

An Obsidian game bugged to hell right at launch? Hmm, that's two strikes. Hope their third release won't be broken at release too. This is eerily similar to KotOR II.
Exactly what I was thinking. The problem is that Obsidian doesn't have a history of delivering a patch which makes everything better. This is currently in the "why even bother?" category.

The review is something I would've mocked if it had appeared on our forum. Of the many reported problems with NWN2, dinging it for being a D&D game that lays bare its underlying mechanics is perhaps the most foolish he could choose. And the points which hit their mark (repetitive zombie NPCs, transparently-triggered monsters, meaningless busywork "quests", &c) are part of the whole genre's baggage, and while I'd be very happy to see them disappear, hating a game for failing to transcend its genre just isn't reasonable.

Serapth

11-03-2006, 10:07 PM

And the points which hit their mark (repetitive zombie NPCs, transparently-triggered monsters, meaningless busywork "quests", &c) are part of the whole genre's baggage, and while I'd be very happy to see them disappear, hating a game for failing to transcend its genre just isn't reasonable.

While at the same time, he credits ( perhaps unfairly, given it was black isle ) the team behind NWN2 with PS:T, an rpg that shed all of the genres baggage.

Crabby

11-03-2006, 10:19 PM

I would like to see one review at least mention the horrible community-wide system performance that this game is causing for many, many people right now.

mister_slim

11-04-2006, 02:16 AM

BigJonno

11-04-2006, 02:38 AM

Heh, I'm running this on my (mostly) three year old system with no problems at all. I even put the textures up to medium from the recommended low without having any noticeable performance hit (probably comes from upgrading my graphics card a few months ago.

As for the review, it's shit. It's poorly written and the main criticism seems to be that it's an accurate simulation of the D&D 3.5 rules. There are some valid points in there, but they're hard to find amongst the pile of crap. I have to say the reviewer's obvious predisposition to dislike the game makes my score adjustment much easier. He obviously does not like the idea of what is basically a 3.5 sim, I do. I'd easily add three points to his score for that, making it an eight, which is where I'd rate it at the moment.

The game does get much more interesting as soon as you're out of the village. The dwarf you encounter is the best character I've seen in an RPG since, oooo, KotOR2 'Nuff said, really.

My only major criticisms at the moment are the camera, which requires too much attention, in my opinion, and the auto updater not working properly. It downloads the file, gets about 19% of the way through the patching process and then throws up a file error.

H.Bogard

11-04-2006, 03:54 AM

Reminds me of the Dark Messiah review at gamespot... :(

kiranos

11-04-2006, 04:51 AM

Here is the review, thought someone might still like to read it...

This review appears in the January issue of Games For Windows: The Official Magazine. (edit, not true anymore)

----

As everything-the-original-did -- and more -- follow-ups go, Neverwinter Nights 2 deserves a banner&something like "mission accomplished." Think the sequel to Jurassic Park, where Spielberg's all "You want more dinosaurs? I'll show you more dinosaurs..." As a contemporary CRPG, on the other hand, NWN2 leaves a lot to be desired, and that's too bad, because these are the guys who brought us Planescape: Torment and Icewind Dale 2...and therefore they are the guys I'm least inclined to take issue with.

But issues exist, and defining them is really no more complex than saying, "Hello D&D superchrome, buh-bye storytelling and character development (you know, those things you're supposed to "immerse" yourself in)." The idea seems to be that we're meant to rah-rah about a superabundance of feats, spells, races, prestige (advanced) classes, and math-equation tickers full of the usual "I attack you with a +4 sword of --" booooooring. Fine, sure, dandy...but when is a "role" not a "role"? Simple: when it's a rule to a fault.

Ever loyal bites
I'm cruising for a bruising (don't I know it), but NWN2 is a splash of cold water to the face: A revelatory, polarizing experience that -- in the wake of newer, better alternatives -- makes you question the very notion of "RPG by numbers." It foists Wizards of the Coast's latest v3.5 D&D system (a molehill that's become a mountain at this point) onto your hard drive with stunning fidelity, then tacks on dozens of artificial-looking areas vaguely linked by forget-table plot points you check off like grocery to-do's.

Sure, the interface is sleeker with context-sensitive menus and a smart little bar that lets you more intuitively toggle modes like "power attack" and "stealth," but with all the added rule-shuffling, NWN2 seems like it's working twice as hard to accomplish half as much. Worse -- and blame this on games like Oblivion -- NWN2's levels feel pint-sized: Peewee zones inhabited by pull-string NPCs with no existence to speak of beyond their little playpens. Wander and you'll wonder why the forests, towns, and dungeons are like movie lots with lay-about monsters waiting patiently for you to trip their arbitrary triggers. As if the pencil and paper "module" approach were a virtue that computers -- by now demonstrably capable of simulating entire worlds with considerably more depth -- should emulate. It's like we're supposed to park half our brain in feature mania and the rest in nostalgic slush, and somehow call bingo.

The dungeons feel especially stale, so linear and inorganic they might as well be graph-paper lifts filled with room after room of pop-up bogeymen (Doom put them in closets; NWN2 just makes the closets bigger). Maybe you'd rather chat with the dumb NPCs that speak and sound like extras in a bad Saturday morning cartoon? Oh, boy -- there's the portrait "plus" sign! Time to shuffle another party member (improved to four simultaneous) through the level-up grinder, which you can click "recommend" to zip past...but then, what's the point?

Rule-playing game
In all fairness, it's not entirely developer Obsidian's fault. D&D certainly puts the "rule" in role-playing, and a madcap base of D&D aficionados is no doubt ready to string me up for suggesting that faithful is here tantamount to folly (to these people, I say: "Go for it, NWN2's all you've ever wanted and more"). Call me crazy -- I guess I'm just finally weary of being led around on a pencil-and-paper leash and batting numbers around a glorified three-dimensional spreadsheet in a computer translation that should have synthesized, not forklifted.

That five-of-10 is actually a hedge, by the way. For D&D fans who want to play an amazingly thorough PC translation of the system they're carting around in book form, it's proba-bly closer an eight or nine. But if, like me, you want less "rules for rule's sake" and more depth and beauty to your simulated game worlds, you can certainly find more exciting prospects. Part of the reason we call them "the good old days" and think fondly of games past is that it's always easier to love what we don't have to play anymore.

Demo_Boy

11-04-2006, 06:54 AM

Numbers and rules for the sake of it are not intrinsic gameplay, nor do they add "fun".

Spigot

11-04-2006, 08:22 AM

Numbers and rules for the sake of it are not intrinsic gameplay, nor do they add "fun".
But when the game is based around those same numbers and rules, it's kind of silly to bash them.

Beelzebud

11-04-2006, 09:10 AM

Here is the bottom line, for me.

Does the game's single player campaign suck as bad as NWN's, or is it actually decent?

The first NWN, I really tried hard to like, but it was just a lame storyline, and campaign.

I have not yet had a chance to see for myself, but from some of the comments, I'm getting the feeling that this is either as bad, or worse than the original, in terms of the main single player campaign... I'm not even sure I want to spend the cash to find out.

Jack9

11-04-2006, 10:28 AM

Looks like he played it and gave his opinion. That's a review.

BigJonno

11-04-2006, 10:32 AM

The campaign is MUCH better than the original. From mechanics (having a four man party makes it so much more interesting) to the storyline, I'd say everything is improved, especially once you get to Neverwinter. I'm also really liking the NPCs and their general bickering. I'm actually going to find it difficult to swap out any of the first three party members you find.

Both of my complaints mentioned above have been sorted. The problem with the autoupdater was due to it needing several gigs of temporary hard drive space while patching. The camera takes some getting used to, but it's hardly game breaking.

J Arcane

11-04-2006, 10:40 AM

So far I've found the best way to set up the camera is to turn on driving camera mode and plop it down and close over the character's shoulder. It's closer to KOTOR than NWN, in terms of how the driving camera works, but since I've been playing KOTOR a bit lately, it works for me.

Farrok

11-04-2006, 10:46 AM

Apart from the performance concerns, I'm a little surprised about some of the hate this game is getting even from fans of the series. As far as introductory sequences go, I don't think this one was half bad. Yes, the first dungeon was terrible, but the battle leading up to it was a good bit better than most of what you get in the first stages of an RPG. Or even a fantasy novel, for that matter. Its a little unfair to compare it to BG2, also (the best RPG ever imo), but that's because BG2 started you right in the middle of being tortured and had a backstory and NPCs that were probably familiar to most of the players. Additionally, it sets you down at a relatively high (for D&D) level 8. If there is one thing that D&D based games seriously lack, its entertainment at low level. You have about 2 spells and constantly miss everything. Thats why NWN2 probably deserves praise for pushing you to level 3 by the end of the tutorial. In BG, level 3 was close to halfway through the game! But BG made up for that with an awesome story and really interesting NPCs. Personally, I think the dwarf is hilarious and actually has pretty good voice acting, so while I'm not even at Act II, I'm overall very pleased with what NWN2 has offered so far. That being said, I feel like this is what the first one should have been like, instead of starting you off as some generic mercenary with no actual tie to the plot events beyond money. Thats what Bioware lost when they made NWN after the wonderful BG series, and it appears that Obsidian has at least brought that aspect back. Here's to hoping it only gets better!

Kefkataran

11-04-2006, 11:32 AM

Looks like he played it and gave his opinion. That's a review.

Yep. Of course, so is everyone else's little ditties here giving their opinions. But I wouldn't publish most of them.

Spigot

11-04-2006, 11:36 AM

Yep. Of course, so is everyone else's little ditties here giving their opinions. But I wouldn't publish most of them.
Hell, a lot of the responses to the 'review' are better written than the actual review was.

J Arcane

11-04-2006, 12:06 PM

I played through NWN1, and enjoyed it the first time. Further attempts though, have all ended in me getting bored before I even got to Act II.

Unlike Hordes of the Underdark, which I've played countless times.

And I agree, low-level D&D does suck. Even in tabletop I prefer to start at level 5 or 6 or so, because that's generally where you start getting decent enough for it to be fun.

GrinR

11-04-2006, 01:27 PM

BigJonno

11-04-2006, 02:20 PM

I second this. I have that same spec, and even with everything turned to minimum the game runs horribly. Frankly, it's unplayable as far as I'm concerned.

It's disappointments like this that keep me glued to my 360, btw.

Firstly, HOLY SHIT!

Secondly, this proves that they have some very strange problems under the hood. That spec beats my machine in every way and I can run it fine.

Kefkataran

11-04-2006, 02:23 PM

It's disappointments like this that keep me glued to my 360, btw.

Ignore first post. Wrong thread. But... WELCOME BACK!

And you are on your 360 a lot. :p

Also, this thread has thoroughly scared me away from NWN2 as well. Too bad. Maybe after some patching and price lowerage, I'll look into it, but I'm glad I had too much other gaming going on to even look into this one at launch.

Spigot

11-04-2006, 02:38 PM

I'm going to let my friend who only plays one or two games at a time beta test this for me. He was going to try it while I tried out FFXII. So far, it seems I made the safer bet :)

And welcome back GrinR. I've seen you poking your head up here and there. Is this a sign of you actually sticking around for good?

BigJonno

11-04-2006, 07:02 PM

Just read the Eurogamer (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=69595) review. It's positive, but not fawningly so. It touches upon the problems in the game, but puts them as annoyances, rather than game-breakers (including a tongue-in-cheek dig at the fact that not all the keyboard shortcuts are given in-game and that you have to *SHOCK HORROR* read the manual.)

It's pretty much the review I would've written, but better.

By the way, it's just gone 3AM, I've been playing this for about the last 12 hours straight.

Crabby

11-04-2006, 09:54 PM

I've managed to shoehorn my way into an acceptable framerate but the settings are so horribly low that the game looks worse than NWN 1 and I simply can't accept that. I mean, you're reading the post of a person who in no way prioritizes graphics above anything else. But I have played games from ten years ago that looked better than what I have to endure while trying to enjoy NWN 2.

Those issues aside, it seems to me like the game would be just delicious. Especially the way they have returned to full party customization. Something that has been pointed out as a major positive even in this thread.

Disgustipated

11-05-2006, 01:27 AM

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:4WvtC2bboHMJ:www.1up.com/do/reviewPage%3FcId%3D3154870+1UP+Neverwinter+Nights+ 2+review&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1&client=firefox-a

That's what I got off the google cache, not sure if it'll work but it's the original review. Pretty crappy.

MacD

11-05-2006, 09:29 AM

First off, performance wise: it's very obvious that the problems lie with high end systems; somehow, I think Obsidian just didn't code for Core 2 and 7900 series of cpu/gpu. I have a p4 2,6c, 2 gig ram and a v9999(6800+256ddr3) and I play 1024x768, textures at high, normalmapped ground, shadows at second highest with no stuttering at all (NGO91.47).

But appart from performance, there's massive bugs; inventory bugs (can't equip, duping, losing stuff when paused), graphical bugs (cool...my weapon turned invisible!), pathfinding bugs, quest bugs (frak you, Kipp...I'm a rogue, I don't need you and I already completed the quest...now I get to keep your quest around for the rest of the game?) and annoyances (camera sucks! How can they have screwed that up so bad? Four camera systems and none of them work like a camera system should. From a camera movement perspective to trees only going slightly transparent and staying annoyingly in view. Walkmeshes are very limited, making the game feel very 'on rails'. Why is the quickbar so limited? I can't use it to put my weapons away, or to put certain actions on it (like parry/dual wield). And what's up with the re-appearing bandits? I just cleared the whole camp, wnet inside, came outside...still dead; but as soon as I talk to the refugees, all of the sudden the camp is filled with bandits again? Wtf? Or how about the whole kill-anything-that-you-can mindset of the game. There's some places where you can use diplomacy to avoid fighting...too bad that slaughtering everyone gives you much more xp, and you get to loot the corpses besides).

As for the review...well, I think the guy has a point. I loved the old SSI games (Pool of Radiance FTW!), loved PS:T and all the others...but NWN2 is a perfect example of why tabletop rulesets are not a good system for computer games.
The way a round works is just silly...everyone whacks each other once (or twice), then there's this long pause where no-one does anything but stand there...and then they whack each other again. And the pausing! Pause, give orders, wait for resolution, pause, repeat...yup, that's gameplay for you! It's like a turn based game (which D&D3.5 really is) using the faulty UFO:Apocalypse realtime game system. It's just not that fun anymore. And it's plagued by the same problem Dungeion Siege has...autocombat; you can just click in the neighbourhood of the enemy and let the game play itself.
Then there's the leveling up...I so agree with the 'and then you click through the level up treadmill for ALL PARTY MEMBERS at the same time' sentiment. Leveling is a staple for the genre, but taking away any individual progression is just...it takes away the whole special feeling you're supposedto get that your character finally leveled.
But more than that...leveling in NWN2 is like a preplanned carreer. Those prestige classes mean the 'propper' way to do it is to think up a whole carreer path for your character before you actually start! Just playing the way you want, picking feats as and when you want is not an option if you want to get any prestige class. It's a system which emphasises a certain pre-planned path over a freeflowing progression towards a choice. Then again, I preffer the Shadowrun/Fallout ruleset...I think they translate better to a computer game (and in the latter case were made for it, and it showed).
The small areas too....it's like freakin' Deus Ex: Invisible War! Areas seem much smaller than Fallout(2)...sometimes they're equal enough in size, but filled with next to nothing. And the areas feel disjointed too, like nothing connects in a realworld sense...which is strange, because they use pretty much the same system Fallout used, but the result is nowhere near as cohesive as Fallout.
Then there's the characters...like that stereotypical dwarf. Wow...fighting dwarf with battleaxe...and the twist is

*SPOILER*

...he wants to become a monk and you get to decide if he goes pacifist or not. Wow...didn't see that coming a mile off. And the tiefling? Come on! We've all seen that character way too many times (all the more irritating for those of us who play rogues).

*/SPOILER*

And then there's the AI...which goes barreling through traps whilst you're disarming them, or running around disarming traps and accidentally springing them or pulling enemies in the process...so you switch that behaviour off and they become useless baggae in gameplay terms, except as cannon fodder.

That all being said...there are actual characters in this game, unlike for example Oblivion (which makes me fear Fallout3...Bethesda just can't seem to do propper, real characters), so that's better than most RPG's out nowadays. And the game itself is kinda fun, in a Diablo with numbers kinda way. The opening battle for your village is nicely done, as are a few of the latter quests; there's definitely some cool stuff in the game. And of course the multiplayer rocks. But for me, this game is cool due to what the fans will build for it and the multiplayer. 'Cause if this game shipped with only the single player campaign, it would not be worth the hassle of playing it.

Skookum

11-05-2006, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by reimomo
I give it a 5/10 for running like ass.

9 frames per second at 1024x768 resolution, with all options turned off (shadows mip-map etc), low res textures, as low as everything goes. 5 fps at 1600x1200 with everything turned on.

AMD XP 3700+ 2GB RAM 7900GT video card.

AMD64 3500, 2 Gigs of Ram, X800pro. 1024x768 - everything runs well and looks good (looks even better once bloom is turned off for some reason). I guess my CPU is pulling it ahead somehow (btw the fan comes on full speed while playing this game, sounds like a little refrigerator!)

After reading some of the really negative comments on this game I'm a little surprised at how much I'm enjoying it. However, I guess I can make up my own mind and say that I like the game based on its own merits.

Although I disagree with the review, I am very disappointed that 1up would pull it off their page. It's not like he lied anywhere in it, or didn't play the game, every one of his points is a valid criticism. Why they couldn't just say that his opinions were his and not reflective of 1up is beyond me.

Pulling a review completely destroys their integrity, as if 1up was getting pressure from the publisher. If they don't have the balls to put up a negative review of a popular game then they shouldn't be putting up any reviews at all. I'm going to remember this every time I see a 1up review from now on.

Spigot

11-05-2006, 10:52 AM

Pulling a review completely destroys their integrity, as if 1up was getting pressure from the publisher. If they don't have the balls to put up a negative review of a popular game then they shouldn't be putting up any reviews at all. I'm going to remember this every time I see a 1up review from now on.
I don't know about that. The review itself was very poorly written and the complaints weren't about the game as much as they were about the underlying rules in the game.

I almost hope they put another negative review up. I just hope they make sure it's run through an editor this time around and that the charges it levels against the game are legit.

Of course, now that everyone knows that 1Up pulled the review, I think they're going to be very careful about what goes up in its place. If they put up a glowing review, they'll be labeled hypocrites and shills.

MacD

11-05-2006, 11:29 AM

[...] and the complaints weren't about the game as much as they were about the underlying rules in the game.

A game is defined by it's underlying rules and the implementation of said rules. So why is that not a valid criticism?

BigJonno

11-05-2006, 11:49 AM

NWN2 is a D&D 3.5 game. Criticising it because you don't like D&D 3.5 is like criticising Pro Evolution Soccer for being about soccer.

Spigot

11-05-2006, 11:53 AM

A game is defined by it's underlying rules and the implementation of said rules. So why is that not a valid criticism?
What BigJonno said.

Metal

11-05-2006, 01:48 PM

The development team for this game continues to dissapoint. On paper they should be pumping out AAA games, but continue their track record of mediocre games in the last 3 years. A 5 or 6 out of 10 for this train wreck of a game technically is more than fair. Boo to 1UP for pulling it.

Greymane

11-05-2006, 02:49 PM

I've been enjoying NWN2 so far, but the reviewer isn't completely wrong in all his points. I disagree with the bit about the game fetishizing the D&D ruleset, because that's what D&D games do in the first place. The bit on the character development, well, yeah, in the tutorial there really isn't much - a few amusing personalities, if you're willing to go through the conversation trees, but as you would expect from a tutorial, it isn't really all that inspired. It gets substantially better as you start to meet more and more of the NPCs - I'm currently fond of Khelgar, the dwarf folks keep mentioning, and Casavir, a paladin character further along in act I. There are duds, and there are some genuinely entertaining characters, with serious personality development.

As for the question of the 'pull-string NPCs,' I don't know what to make of the comment. There are certainly areas of the game where that appears true, such as Fort Locke fairly early in the game, but there are also areas where that's really not true at all, such as when you get to Neverwinter itself. I'm always fascinated by that kind of comment, however; it's basically asking games to go out and be something that they did not promote themselves to be. I don't recall seeing any press for NWN2 where they talked about NPC AI, day and night cycles, or any of that business. The primary hype machine was on the updated graphics, the improved toolset, and the singleplayer storyline. Like reviewing a movie based upon the characteristics it claims to be bringing to the table, you review a game based upon the characteristics it states it's bringing to the table. You don't review a drama movie based upon its lack of comedic content, you review it based upon the quality of its dramatic content.

Addressing folks' problems with the games, I don't know what problems y'all are having. I have had none. The game runs fine, and I do not have a wunder-machine. I run an AMD 3200+ with an ATI Radeon 1600. I have 4 gigs of RAM, though, so that might account for things for some of the smoothness. I have the resolution of the game at 1280x1024, and I'm seeing about 50 fps, except in long-shots in particularly busy areas, where it drops to about 30. I have had no crashes, no lost saved games, no broken quests, no formatted hard drives - nothing. It runs just fine. I don't know what to say, other than, sorry things didn't turn out so well for you guys.

I haven't had any camera bugs, either - trees turn about 90% transparent on my system. I haven't had any inventory bugs; equipment is as it should be, nothing turns transparent at strange times, I've had no duping.

I agree with the sentiments about individual progression; everyone in NWN2 appears to share XP equally, so there's never any distinction between characters in level terms. So yes, you do need to go fumbling through four character sheets at once; also, gods help you if you bring in one of the characters you've benched for a good while, because you'll suddenly have about five or six runs of that on a single character. OY!

Something I don't really see people, Peckham or folks here, talking about is the NPC influence system. If you've played KotOR2, you know the system already. Do things that your companion NPCs approve of, and you'll gain influence with them; gain enough influence, and you can ask them more serious questions, get to know them better, maybe unlock some specific sidequests related to them. It's a cute system, although a little rough around the edges; far as I know, there's no place where your current standing with your companions is recorded, so it's all vague.

Ultimately, NWN2 is, especially when compared to its predecessor, a decent game. It's not particularly amazing; it brings little to blow your socks off. If you enjoy D&D, it's worth picking up, as the singleplayer game is an amusing diversion (and it gets better as it goes along) and the long-term potential thanks to the toolset and the community is really quite high. If you had any appreciation for the first game, either due to the original content or what the community made of it, I see no reason not to pick up NWN2.

Disgustipated

11-05-2006, 04:15 PM

Seems like it's having the most problems on NVidia GPU's, as every time I look and see a problem, people have a NV card.

BigJonno

11-05-2006, 04:22 PM

I've got an Nvidia card, no problems at all.

I'm now a good way through act 2 and I can safetly say this is the best RPG in terms of storyline and your involvement in it since BG2. Not even the KotORs drew me in this much.

MacD

11-05-2006, 07:18 PM

NWN2 is a D&D 3.5 game. Criticising it because you don't like D&D 3.5 is like criticising Pro Evolution Soccer for being about soccer.

I don't think that holds...soccer translates nicely to a computer game. Here we have a tabletop system which when translated to a computer game creaks.
It's not that I don't like D&D rules (although as stated I prefer SR, but D&D moved towards that with v3 anyway), it's that the ruleset, as translated, makes for a clunky computer game.
One of the reasons being how 'initiative' is translated and that use neccesetating a round based game; that's fine in a tabletop setting, but in an online, "realtime" and multiplayer setting, they could have actually have gone realtime, all the while keeping strictly to D&D3.5 rules.
Point being, Initiative and rounds are strictly part of the combat side of D&D...the major part of D&D is realtime interaction with party members and DM. The 'initiative' and 'round' concept are thus pretty much only there to aid in combat resolution...which they thus could have left out or changed for a realtime computer game, thus creating a better computer game, whilst still adhering fully to D&D rules. All they had to do was change round to it's stated equivalent in seconds and used that throughout the ruleset.

Criticising it because you don't like D&D 3.5 is like criticising Pro Evolution Soccer for being about soccer.

So, no; it would be more like criticising PES for making you wait 15 minutes during halftime; sure, it's in the game it's based on, but that doesn't mean it's a critical feature to add to the computer game .

Balthasar

11-05-2006, 07:19 PM

It's disappointments like this that keep me glued to my 360, btw.
Hey, I thought you abandoned ship? Welcome back.

And, agreed, if you replace 360 with PS2. I've got so many games that I have left to play and want to play for it, I am going to wait a few months before considering NWN. By that time, Bioshock may be out, in which case, it may be even longer. It's too bad, because I was really looking forward to this in the summer. My roomate's got it already (pirated), but he seems to be hating it right now. He's got a core 2 duo running to boot. Graphically, there's no reason it should require so much to do what it is doing.

BioGeorg

11-06-2006, 06:14 AM

The original review was unfair, faulting the game for being a rules based role playing game - which is the clear and stated goal of the game, especially since it is a sequel to a rules based role playing game (and a good one, IMO ). One could just as well fault Flight Simulator for be a complex, non combat simulation and not an action game or Guitar Hero for not featuring Accordions (http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20060314/freude_01.shtml).

It is good that they had the balls to retract it, it is rarely seen that game reviewers stand to honestly broken reviews.

Georg, BioWare

Wolvie

11-06-2006, 07:26 AM

I'd like to see thios happen more often. If editors don't play a game for more then a few hours before decrying it, then they shouldn't be allowed to review games. Play a fucking game ALL the way through, or at least try all the features before you slam it. What an idiot.

Edit: I also think they need to have an actual EXPERT on the genre of game being reviewed, review the game. That way the person in question actually knows what the hell they are talking about.

BigJonno

11-06-2006, 08:31 AM

So, no; it would be more like criticising PES for making you wait 15 minutes during halftime; sure, it's in the game it's based on, but that doesn't mean it's a critical feature to add to the computer game .

Sorry, but I disagree. A fifteen minute half time is not a fundemental part of the rules of football. Initiative and rounds ARE a fundemental part of the rules of D&D. A more accurate comparison would be PES removing throw-ins, corners and goal kicks and programming the ball to just bounce off the sides of the pitch. After all, they're needed in football in case the ball goes out of play, but that doesn't need to happen in a computer game.

Yes, pen 'n' paper RPG rulesets are just a way to simulate a world with a few dice and a computer means that they're no longer necessary. It's my major beef with jRPGs; they make a game about the stats and ignore the interaction and customisability, which to me is completely missing the point. I'd love to see a game that combined the depth of story and interaction of Baldur's Gate 2 with the combat from God of War and an organic character development system.

However NWN2 is supposed to be a simulation of D&D 3.5. It's supposed to allow you to create, run and play computerised adventures just as you would pen 'n' paper ones. The only way it could be any more accurate is by being completely turn based, so I think it should be applauded for succeeding in this area, not criticised for it.

Skookum

11-06-2006, 09:21 AM

The only way it could be any more accurate is by being completely turn based.

That's probably a good idea. The stand-around-wait-patiently-for-the-orc-to-bash-you-in-the-head thing just looks ridiculous in real time. I understand that I'm actually waiting for simulated dice rolls (lovingly shown scrolling across the bottom of the screen), but that doesn't mean it isn't frustrating watching my characters apparently frozen, doing nothing. DnD video games are really a distinct sub genre of RPGs, meaning I have to put up with this specific quirk or I won't be able to enjoy the game.

I do *really* dig the game, I spent maybe 12 hours on it yesterday (go me). But that was in spite of the DnD rule set. I'm enjoying it for the immersive, cheap fantasy story that has me wondering how all the plot elements will be nicely tied up at the end. I very much wish that I could play this game in a manner similar to Oblivion but I can't, so I make do with it as is. And I'm having a lot of fun.

PA has a link to Jeff Green's blog this morning: http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=7592798&publicUserId=5380367
talking about the reasons behind pulling the article off 1up. Apparently if he'd left it there he would have had to publish it in the first issue of GFW, and he just didn't want that. After reading Green I have a little more sympathy for him taking the article down, but more so I want to read Peckham's original article, the one Green told him to rewrite before they finally posted (and rescinded) this one.

BioGeorg

11-06-2006, 09:25 AM

However NWN2 is supposed to be a simulation of D&D 3.5.

Actually, both NWN and NWN2 are computer games first (that's what's on the box), rules simulators second. Having fun and lasting gameplay is more important than strictly sticking to the rules, especially when they don't translate nicely.

There are always people who will think that the rules should be #1 priority, but in the end, only a fraction of the people who end up playing the computer game ever play Pen and Paper (on only a fraction of those are rabid rules lawyers), and a developer has to ensure that the game is fun to play the whole audience, which sometimes means streamlining the ruleset to be fun within the engine and platform limitations.

Citizen Philip

11-06-2006, 09:39 AM

I've just arrived in Highcliff (an objective you are given in your village), and thus far I am very pleased with the character development and story: specifically, it's very plausible and easy to accept. As I've mentioned previously I have no technical issues per se, regarding performance - although the camera is a bit tricky.

I do agree that the game 'appears' to be clunky - by way of combat: ie. large pauses between attacks, etc. but this is more rule-centric: the issue will disappear as well as the complaints as one levels up.

santos

11-06-2006, 09:56 AM

The review was by no means great journalism, but I've also read much worse in game reviews on major sites over the years. The reviewer made seemingly valid points about the quality of the game design. He qualifies the review at the end, saying that D&D diehards would rate it higher. I think reviews are (or at least can be) more useful if coming from writers who are not genre diehards or fanboys. Anyway, they could've revamped some of his text a bit to make it a bit more professional-sounding, but pulling the review seems like a spineless manoeuver. I mean someone read it and approved it before it was posted, right? They seem to be acting like the writer snuck it onto the site without their knowledge. Smells like BS to me.

Ultima Thulian

11-06-2006, 10:02 AM

You make a good point Santos. Bah, we need more EvAvers to do reviews! We do a kickass jobs at 'em! In fact, maybe I'll do a couple today...

Mad-E-Fact

11-06-2006, 10:06 AM

I had almost forgotten about this game until I saw this article. The first NWN was hard to get into due to the slow start of the campaign, but once I got a feel for the game I enjoyed it immensely, aswell as the second expansion.

Oblivion got great reviews across the board yet it felt like a huge disappointment for an avid fan of Morrowind, so if Oblivion is the staple RPG all others are measured against nowadays, I think I will definitely give NWN2 a shot.

Johan

11-06-2006, 10:29 AM

As for the question of the 'pull-string NPCs,' I don't know what to make of the comment. There are certainly areas of the game where that appears true, such as Fort Locke fairly early in the game, but there are also areas where that's really not true at all, such as when you get to Neverwinter itself. I'm always fascinated by that kind of comment, however; it's basically asking games to go out and be something that they did not promote themselves to be. I don't recall seeing any press for NWN2 where they talked about NPC AI, day and night cycles, or any of that business. The primary hype machine was on the updated graphics, the improved toolset, and the singleplayer storyline. Like reviewing a movie based upon the characteristics it claims to be bringing to the table, you review a game based upon the characteristics it states it's bringing to the table. You don't review a drama movie based upon its lack of comedic content, you review it based upon the quality of its dramatic content.

Wow...this paragraph really rocked in its logic and point. Well done sir! :)

Kefkataran

11-06-2006, 10:41 AM

They seem to be acting like the writer snuck it onto the site without their knowledge. Smells like BS to me.

What are you talking about? It's not like they snuck it off the site without saying anything. They posted a big huge fucking public apology and said they'd do a new review. They obviously realize this was a fuck-up on their part, and they say so in the apology.

Jack9

11-07-2006, 02:21 PM

So what if it's badly written. PA said it best, a review is an ongoing dialogue. Pulling it was the wrong thing to do. What will the backseat losers (please get a job writing better reviews, since you're so much better) do with their time now? Probably complain about me.

Balthasar

11-07-2006, 04:20 PM

So what if it's badly written.
If you're a publication with any integrity then you must have a certain standard that all items published must meet before distribution. 1Up clearly thought this article did not meet standards.

Greymane

11-07-2006, 04:38 PM

Heh, thanks Johan.

This is just something that I've been thinking on lately is all - the nature of game journalism, reviewing quality and standards, and the whole preview/review culture that the industry has working against its favor. Well, against in my opinion, I'm no expert.

Jack9

11-14-2006, 09:04 AM

If you're a publication with any integrity then you must have a certain standard that all items published must meet before distribution.

Thanks for that very subjective argument that has no weight. There is no "must" as it was published initially. According to the author 1Up did not pull it, he did. So there's 2 wrong. The question is "was it appropriate to pull it rather than alter or add to it?" which is the norm. There is nothing wrong with a game review that is "poorly written" on the web or every gamer would be a grammar nazi and we quickly grow out of that through experience. I'm sure every review of a game you've ever given to friends or strangers has been grammatically and factually accurate *roll eyes*

Kefkataran

11-14-2006, 09:47 AM

Jack9, where did the author say that he pulled it rather than 1Up and why does Jeff Green say differently in his blog post on the subject? Also, assuming that publications have some level of integrity they try to mantain is sillier than assuming they don't? Whaaa?

There is nothing wrong with a game review that is "poorly written" on the web or every gamer would be a grammar nazi and we quickly grow out of that through experience. I'm sure every review of a game you've ever given to friends or strangers has been grammatically and factually accurate *roll eyes*

So you're saying you're an idiot? Got it.

Jack9

11-21-2006, 01:14 PM

Given your responses, you seem to fit the description. I understand it makes you upset to think that you know it all and are perfect, but you're not and the world isn't. Allowing that to show is better than rolling back and pretending something didn't happen.

Sl1pstream

11-21-2006, 01:27 PM

Kefkataran

11-22-2006, 02:45 AM

I understand it makes you upset to think that you know it all and are perfect, but you're not and the world isn't. Allowing that to show is better than rolling back and pretending something didn't happen.

1. I don't think I know it all nor that I am perfect. Never have, never will.

2. By pulling it, they're showing they aren't perfect MUCH more than by keeping it up and pretending it's something they actually agree with.

Spigot

11-22-2006, 06:16 AM

You're not perfect, Kef? AH! My world view is shattered!

You're right though. As has been said several times already, if the replacement review is a glowing perfect score, we, the gaming public, can call foul on the whole shenanigans. As it stands, it seemed more like they are going to have another review that will be a little better written and hopefully won't attack the game for being what it is (that being a faithful recreation of tabletop D&D rules).

This review was also the first victim of the tighter integration of 1Up and Games For Windows mag. In the past, 1Up might have put that review up and let it stand but the same review that might have passed muster on 1Up obviously wasn't up to snuff to GfW's editorial policies.

Kefkataran

11-22-2006, 06:48 AM

Very good point, Spigs.

P.S. the first issue of Games For Windows rocked.

Jack9

11-29-2006, 09:21 AM

I dont troll the boards waiting for responses. Again, it's obvious some dont bother with the whole "thinking" much.

The argument is about revisionism and there is no merit to the opinion that it is good. The magazine, by nature is not up to any literary standard. By backing the move to revise what is published on the online version (which is separate) is to say "that crap is too crappy". Hiding mistakes reflects badly on any organization, when the proper response from a mature industry is to embrace and correct.

Kefkataran

12-01-2006, 11:23 AM

The magazine, by nature is not up to any literary standard. By backing the move to revise what is published on the online version (which is separate) is to say "that crap is too crappy". Hiding mistakes reflects badly on any organization, when the proper response from a mature industry is to embrace and correct.

If you don't like magazines, why does this even affect you?

And again, they are not and never did hide the change. It was well-publicized and covered by the 1up and Games for Windows editors on their various blogs as soon as the change happened.

If you disagree with me, that's fine, but accusing me of not thinking is completely ridiculous. If you'd rather throw schoolground insults than actually discuss the issue, feel free to head elsewhere, but I'm not really interested in that.

Serapth

12-01-2006, 12:47 PM

My god Kef, let this thread die... let it die! ;)

Kefkataran

12-01-2006, 12:53 PM

Whatever, I heard the Wii sucks.

Goronmon

12-01-2006, 01:04 PM

Whatever, I heard the Wii sucks.Really? I heard it just kinda sucks.

Balthasar

12-01-2006, 02:22 PM

Whatever, I heard the Wii sucks.
Wow, I thought I was resilient. Isn't this thread three weeks old? Shit, man, my hat goes off to you.

Edit: One month? Yowza.

Johan

12-01-2006, 03:57 PM

Suck the Wii.

The Wii; suck.

The suck Wii.

It's amazing what three words can do, when reordered and punctuated differently...:) I like the second one best; the Wii sounds like a milk bottle...

Serapth

12-01-2006, 05:45 PM

Whatever, I heard the Wii sucks.

Really?!?! Who told you that?

I love my Wii! :D

Ultima Thulian

12-01-2006, 10:54 PM

I kinda suck. Serially.

Jack9

12-05-2006, 09:53 AM

Kef,
My direct insult was obviously for Spigot.

Yours was unwarranted and based in complete nonsense. Please review the thread.

Please refrain from putting words in my mouh. I clearly do purchase and care about magazines and online media. The difference between someone pulling content, generating outcry, and someone editorializing a mistake is huge and signifigant in an online publication. You are rightly derided from claiming meta-responses from third parties is the equivalent to accurately archiving events. This seems of little importance in some 3rd rate "online publication". If a large site like FoxNews goes revisionist, it's properly a scandal (serves only to corrupt the chronicled history of events in the future). I'm sure you dont care or believe that this is an issue for such a site, while I think if it's such a quality "publication" to have standards, it must be able to properly own up to what it puts out.

Spigot

12-05-2006, 11:00 AM

Kef,
My direct insult was obviously for Spigot.
I was being insulted? Hmm.. I didn't even notice.

Can we all just let this thread die? Yeesh. Some people are going to be crying foul at the thought that a review could ever be rescinded by a publication. The rest of us can move on with our lives.

1Up has put a new review (http://www.1up.com/do/reviewPage?cId=3155234) up which is a) actually well written and b) still derides the game for being 2-3 patches away from being a decent game. Compare this review to that earlier one and tell me why they wouldn't throw out the earlier review. It slammed the game for being an RPG that strictly followed the rules of 3rd Edition D&D (*psst* That's what the game is supposed to do!). This new review actually brings up legitimate gameplay and technical issues instead of ranting about how much the reviewer hates rule-based D&D games.

Meh. I'm done with this. I don't sense a big conspiracy at play here. Having the game score 6/10 is still a pretty harsh score in this age of 'crappy' games scoring in the 7-8/10 range.