Lik-Sang Out of Business

[Norse]

Lik-Sang (http://www.lik-sang.com) has announced that they are closing down. From EuroGamer (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=69068):

Online retailer Lik-Sang has announced that it has gone out of business following a series of lawsuits filed by Sony - and has named a number of SCEE employees who Lik-Sang allege purchased PSP hardware and software from the company.
Read the full message (http://www.lik-sang.com/news.php?artc=3901), straight from Lik-Sang.

I've never used them myself, but I've heard only good things about them. Sad news.

[bapenguin]

Another thing to blame on Sony... ;)

[ElPresidente]

This is very sad news. I've dealt with Lik-Sang a number of times and they were a great company for importing titles and hardware from.

Looks like I'll be relying on Play Asia (http://www.playasia.com) now.

[joruussuun]

NooooooooooooooooOooooooooooOOOOOOOOOO
I've used them before and I love them!
(Whoa... just noticed Firefox 2.0 has built in spellchecking... apparently I can't spell 'no' or 'spell checking' correctly.)

[mikeohara]

I've submitted a news story for this as well.

[NoName]

I didn't import often, but Lik-Sang was the place to go to. Every purchase from them has been good. There as a slight mess up once and their customer support took care of it very promptly.

Sad sad news indeed ;_;.

[violentp]

This story makes me genuinly sad.

[BabyJesus]

Too bad, more Sony bad press. I LOVE the fact that they NAMED NAMES. Stick it to 'em.

[NoName]

Another thing to blame on Sony...
I used to dislike Sony in a Wii60 fanboy sort of way. I think this is the first time I've truely felt angry at Sony. Dislike doesn't cover it anymore.

[Gorvi]

I always prefered PlayAsia, but this still sucks. I don't think you can really blame Sony for wanting to try to launch the PS3 in regions they were actually doing a launch in. And wasn't Lik Sang the company that was saying they wouldn't gaurentee what they would charge for PS3 preorders?

[Goronmon]

Sony can go DIAF.

[total]

Yeah Sony bombed on them with a squad of lawyers for taking games out of their region. GG Sony, sorry I want to play Bleach but you don't give developers enough incentive to release some games stateside (or vice versa).

I've got a bad case of the fucksonys lately.

[Reanimated]

Wow, sony is so awesome guys.

[NoName]

And wasn't Lik Sang the company that was saying they wouldn't gaurentee what they would charge for PS3 preorders?
Lik Sang learned from the DS lite launch. To fill their DS Lite preorders, they had to buy the units at an inflated price. So they had to ask everyone who bought one if the slightly inflated price was ok. They're letting people know this may be the case again, which is likely considering the number of units.

Lik Sang has always been one to care about their customers and always be up front about things.

[Beelzebud]

What a fucking shame..

I'm offically never buying another Sony product again.

[Cyotik]

Fuck you too Sony.

[[Jez]]

Sony fucks me over again.....

[Gorvi]

Lik Sang learned from the DS lite launch. To fill their DS Lite preorders, they had to buy the units at an inflated price. So they had to ask everyone who bought one if the slightly inflated price was ok. They're letting people know this may be the case again, which is likely considering the number of units.

Lik Sang has always been one to care about their customers and always be up front about things.

And how would they be purchasing them at inflated prices? If they're buying the consoles through the proper channels (i.e. through Sony), this wouldn't be an issue. If they're buying them up at inflated prices at retail or second hand, I don't see how what they were doing is any better than Joe Jackass going to Best Buy, standing in line, and selling it on eBay.

And I was under the impression that they came down on Lik Sang not for importing games, but importing consoles, as it could cause legal problems for Sony not manufacturing the consoles to be compatable with EU power sources.

[Adam Blue]

This does suck. ANother source would be NSCX if anyone's interested.

Another problem with Sony, eh? How could anyone ever defend Sony?

[Psykoboy2]

Just adding my two fucks.

Fuck you Sony...you fucktards you.

[NoName]

And how would they be purchasing them at inflated prices? If they're buying the consoles through the proper channels (i.e. through Sony), this wouldn't be an issue. If they're buying them up at inflated prices at retail or second hand, I don't see how what they were doing is any better than Joe Jackass going to Best Buy, standing in line, and selling it on eBay.

And I was under the impression that they came down on Lik Sang not for importing games, but importing consoles, as it could cause legal problems for Sony not manufacturing the consoles to be compatable with EU power sources.
I think the inflated price of the DS was like 10-15 dollars, which was being charge to Lik Sang. They weren't lining their own pockets.

And yes, it was about consoles. Of course, you're ignoring the fact that they shipped the proper cables (at no additional cost I believe?) to connect to the EU power sources. It's not like they gave people in EU Japanese power cables like Sony would have you believe.

[ZeroOmegaZX]

And how would they be purchasing them at inflated prices? If they're buying the consoles through the proper channels (i.e. through Sony), this wouldn't be an issue. If they're buying them up at inflated prices at retail or second hand, I don't see how what they were doing is any better than Joe Jackass going to Best Buy, standing in line, and selling it on eBay.

And I was under the impression that they came down on Lik Sang not for importing games, but importing consoles, as it could cause legal problems for Sony not manufacturing the consoles to be compatable with EU power sources.


Whether or not that is the reason there should be some god damn personal responsibility of the consumer buying the PSP out of area. It's not SONY's issue if someone buys an ASIAN psp for EU. If i buy a DS from Japan i know what im getting, an imported device not necessarilly made to work in my area. All Sony wants is a grip on supply and demand, so that they think they can keep the price justified, when in reality i hope noone shells out for the waaaay overpriced PS3. SONY has no right doing a damn thing here, and what sickens me more is that an institution of justice ruled in their favor, all i can say is.... what the flying fuck is going on...

[Reanimated]

I love the smell of backlash in the morning.

[Tyrant]

Well that sucks.

Hopefully making one example is enough for them, as I'd be mighty pissed if they started going after Play-Asia and the like.

[Gorvi]

I think the inflated price of the DS was like 10-15 dollars, which was being charge to Lik Sang. They weren't lining their own pockets.

And yes, it was about consoles. Of course, you're ignoring the fact that they shipped the proper cables (at no additional cost I believe?) to connect to the EU power sources. It's not like they gave people in EU Japanese power cables like Sony would have you believe.

I think the DS price actually went up to $249-299 if I remember correctly. Didn't Tycho of PA have one preordered that went up to some ridiculous price? I think it was implied as well (and I can't recall where I saw the thread, CAG I think) that the PS3 price was going to see a very significant increase if ordered from Lik Sang.

And even though they shipped the proper power cords with them, I believe if someone used the cords that came with the system and caused a fire or something, Sony could possibly still be held liable. I could be wrong, but I still don't see how this would actually cause Lik Sang to shut down unless they were really doing something that was quite illegal and forced to pay out damages.

[gzsfrk]

It's not as if I needed another reason to despise Sony at the corporate level, but this is just fuel on the fire. They pretty much did that same thing to the Bleem! emulator back in the day. For those not in the know, it was one of the first fairly functional PS1 emulators back in the day, and it was sold commercially. Granted, it was ultimately not that great of an emulator, but I always resented how Sony attempted to basically legal-cost the Bleem guys out of business (along with Connectix for their Virtual Game Station on the Mac). It's lame, and it's a misuse of a broken mechanism in our legal system.

Sony makes a great console (well, I can speak for the PS1 and PS2, at least), and I love most of their first party games. But as a corporation? Total sleezebags. (Of course, I won't deny that pretty much equally applies to 90% or more of the Fortune 500s as well.)

[Stig]

Worst news in quite a long time. I was definitely getting a PS3 at some point next year, but it looks like this might be my final straw with these mother-grabbing bastards. I can't in good conscience support a company that doesn't care about gamers.

And if they go after Play-Asia and the like I don't think I could ever support them again.

RIP Lik-Sang.

[Gorvi]

It's not as if I needed another reason to despise Sony at the corporate level, but this is just fuel on the fire. They pretty much did that same thing to the Bleem! emulator back in the day. For those not in the know, it was one of the first fairly functional PS1 emulators back in the day, and it was sold commercially. Granted, it was ultimately not that great of an emulator, but I always resented how Sony attempted to basically legal-cost the Bleem guys out of business (along with Connectix for their Virtual Game Station on the Mac). It's lame, and it's a misuse of a broken mechanism in our legal system.

Sony makes a great console (well, I can speak for the PS1 and PS2, at least), and I love most of their first party games. But as a corporation? Total sleezebags. (Of course, I won't deny that pretty much equally applies to 90% or more of the Fortune 500s as well.)

How exaclty can you compare this to Bleem? Please tell me any hardware company that wouldn't go after a commercially sold emulator of their hardware.

[UnderHero5]

Sony makes sense.
They make the PSP region free and then sue people for selling it in other regions...

Not that I was going to buy a PS3 anyway (too much) but now I might not bother even when it drops in price, based only on principal.
I liked Lik-Sang.

[Samurai Joe]

Wow, I am really starting to get disgusted by Sony.

[Heretic Machine]

Meh... I wasn't buying a PSP or PS3 before I heard this news, and I'm still not after. Doesn't really change anything, it's just another reason to hate Sony, and a legal system that can allow a company to be lawyered out of business.

[MentallyInept]

This is BAD.

This opens the floodgates to shut down all importer companies. Look for Play-Asia and NSCX to be shut down in the near future.

[Heretic Machine]

This is BAD.

This opens the floodgates to shut down all importer companies. Look for Play-Asia and NSCX to be shut down in the near future.

Well, personally, I'd just stop selling Sony products. It'd cut out a big part of their profits, but damn, there is no reason to put money in Sony's pockets if they don't want them to.

[fitbabits]

So remind me again why those with a grudge against Sony should put their opinions to one side and support the company who made gaming what it is today? I'll wait...

[Deadend]

There would not have been a problem if Sony didn't treat Europe like shit. If the PSP came out at a reasonable time, and had a reasonable cost... People would not import them. But Sony decided to fuck Europe, and now they fuck all of us, because Lik-Sang is/was really good.

Sony is still only good at one thing, making good looking hardware... NOTHING ELSE.

[gzsfrk]

How exaclty can you compare this to Bleem? Please tell me any hardware company that wouldn't go after a commercially sold emulator of their hardware.

Umm... IBM? Plenty of mainframe emulators out there. (and no, not just terminal emulators--full fledged OS/390 emulators used by developers.)

[fitbabits]

Sony is still only good at one thing, making good looking hardware... NOTHING ELSE.
I personally think that the PS2 and PS3 look like shite, but that's just me. Sure, there other Sony products can occasionally look pretty swanky, but the original PlayStation is by far their best looking console to date.

[Morangie]

I think the DS price actually went up to $249-299 if I remember correctly. Didn't Tycho of PA have one preordered that went up to some ridiculous price? I think it was implied as well (and I can't recall where I saw the thread, CAG I think) that the PS3 price was going to see a very significant increase if ordered from Lik Sang.

And even though they shipped the proper power cords with them, I believe if someone used the cords that came with the system and caused a fire or something, Sony could possibly still be held liable. I could be wrong, but I still don't see how this would actually cause Lik Sang to shut down unless they were really doing something that was quite illegal and forced to pay out damages.
There is no way to spin this. Sony are assholes and supporting them is supporting this.

[rein]

Sony are assholes...

So are most of the people on these message boards and I would still buy a PS 3 from them. :D


I feel bad for Lik-Sang, but they were sued by Sony the first time for selling PS2's and Sony won. If that is the case, then why the frack would you turn around and sell PSP's? That was pure idiocy.

[Kamalot]

This is sad news indeed.

I am a HUGE fan of Lik-Sang for all my import needs.

[manu_pkp]

http://www.parssinen.net/liksangrip.jpg

[Savok]

Sony have been doing this for years, but they never got anyone as big as Lik Sang. You can bet they're having a fucking party at the office right now.

Hey Sony, we in PAL wouldn't need Lik Sang if you'd fucking release your shit on time, or in the case of quite a few classics, at all.

[Kamalot]

Here's the beef

Sony relies on mystery and imagination to sell its products. If Sony comes into town with a marketing message of, "Our product is so awesome", your imagination goes to town on awesomeness. They use this media-induced buzz to build up to launch, to ensure that a large number of people are excited about the marketing.

If you can actually import the product and try it out, your impressions may not match what the marketing department wants you to think. Sony fears people getting the product in Europe early will be a buzz-kill. It will erode the marketing messages and buzz, since someone you know already imported the PS3.

That, in and of itself, isn't dastardly.
What is downright evil and wrong is closing down these import shops.

Sony: People WANT to buy your product. It is YOUR fault that the European launch was delayed. Now you want to PUNISH the end consumers that want your product so badly that they are willing to pay import fees for it? Punishing your strongest supporters?

Sony - Screwing over their fanbase one sucker at a time.

[zyzyx]

Lik Sang have closed down before. Last time it happened it was Nintendo using a similar method to stop them selling GBA flash carts. A slightly different set of people then reopened the company, or something. I think we could be seeing them again once all legal ramifications have been suitably dodged.

This doesn't change the simple fact that Sony can't spin this. That rubbish they said about the various pitfalls of importing, ANYONE who is going to import a console already 100% knows those facts and more. It's a simple case of Sony wanting to treat Europe like shit and get away with it. This story, for me, is the current absolute low in the spectacular self-destruction of Sony. So, until the same time tomorrow.

[CapnBob]

Wait wait wait. Didn't Nintendo get fined several hundred million dollars by the EU for trying to prevent retailers from importing games and systems? Or am I not remembering that correctly? Is Sony getting away with it just because they call it by a different name?

[Beansly]

During this "console war", all I had hoped was that Nintendo would get more 3rd party support. This has been replaced by the new hope that Sony gets embarrassed and buried by Microsoft and Nintendo.

[IrishWhiskey]

Just to add to the pile, this really really sucks. I liked Lik-Sang.
And for those who say "well we still have Play-Asia": The question is for how long? Or don't you thing Play-Asia might adjust some of their selling practices after this?

Sony doesn't have to be right or win by fair competition. They are a megacorporation with lawyers. They would use these same legal harassment tactics on anyone who hacks their PSP, uses their CD on more than one computer, or uses Tivo to fastforward through one of their commercials. Why should it be illegal for people to import PS3s and not other kinds of hardware? This is increasingly a time when the lines between consumer rights and corporate rights are being drawn, and DRMing Sony knows which sides its on.

[MrE]

Ah man, I've purchased goods from Lik Sang a few times. They've always been really quick with shipping, and I could get xbox titles from Japan a month before they were horribly dubbed in English here. (yes, modded region free xbox).

-E

[menage]

Can I punch someone

[MagicAlex]

I'm noticing that some of you have not read the article(s). It's not a matter of whether or not Lik-sang is judged guilty or not guilty. The problem is that they can't afford the legal expenses imposed on them by having to fight this lawsuit in multiple countries.

[Royal Fool]

This is going to go down badly with the importers and hardcore gamers. Really fucking badly. I'm one of them.

Fuck you Sony.

[BlackPete]

Not that it matters really... but Sony has responded denying responsibility for this shut-down, and accuses them of sour grapes. (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=20564)

Again, I call bullshit on Sony. This is EXACTLY what they hoped would happen.

Remind me again why I should support Sony?

[Kamalot]

Not that it matters really... but Sony has responded denying responsibility for this shut-down, and accuses them of sour grapes. (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=20564)

Again, I call bullshit on Sony. This is EXACTLY what they hoped would happen.

Remind me again why I should support Sony?
Sony does not understand the meaning of Sour Grapes.

Let me get this straight.
Sony brings lawsuits against Lik-Sang from several European countries at the same time. Lik-Sang can't afford to fight them all and does not go to court, opting instead to close. Sony says, 'Well, they didn't show up in court, which means they incurred no legal expense. That means we didn't force them out of business. They must be whiners!'Right.

Sony is a bunch of filthy, scum-sucking liars.

[fatefodder]

Sigh.

So lame. And yet that response by Sony was so by-the-book, and expected.

I just tried to go to PlayAsia.com, but was blocked (I'm at work)--something about the site being flagged as containing adult-material? I hope the site has improved over what it was three years ago, because it was a no-brainer for me back then that Lik-sang.com was a better option.

[alejandro79]

How will Sony fanboys defend their company this time?

[KingGorilla]

Never imported..but why can they not continue dealing with the other countries? British law is not world law, no matter how hard some may believe it.

[Doctor Setebos]

I knew Cory Doctorow would have some harsh words (http://www.boingboing.net/2006/10/24/sony_assassinates_am.html) for Sony on this:

This is part of Sony's ongoing, suicidal war against its own customers -- from installing rootkits on CD-buyers' PCs to threatening hackers with lawsuits over teaching new dances to their Aibos to re-crippling the PSP to lock out homebrew software. Great companies like Lik-Sang that exist to serve an early-adopter, passionate user niche are collateral damage in the war.

Thanks, Sony. I hope you lose a shitload of money on Blu-Ray.Amen.

[Borys]

Sony to Lik-Sang:

"Welcome to 4th Dimension, bitches!"

Rot in hell for cancelling customers rights, Sony.

[bKangy]

Sony are a bunch of fucking heartless corporate bastards, I hope they enjoy it in hell. At least MS tend to have some heart sometimes when dealing with things.

[Heretic Machine]

Sony are a bunch of fucking heartless corporate bastards, I hope they enjoy it in hell. At least MS tend to have some heart sometimes when dealing with things.

No, MS just knows enough not to be so overt in it's jackassery. Besides, their strategy involves making friends, not new enemies.

[Morangie]

How will Sony fanboys defend their company this time?
They can't, the most deluded will simply ignore this.

Sony to Lik-Sang:

"Welcome to 4th Dimension, bitches!"

Rot in hell for cancelling customers rights, Sony.
Still going to buy a PS3? Because thats what Sony is counting on, that they can do anything they want and people will whine and bitch, then buy a PS3 anyway.

[BlackPete]

No, MS just knows enough not to be so overt in it's jackassery. Besides, their strategy involves making friends, not new enemies.

A strategy that involves making friends? In the corporate world?! Blasphemy! MS should've followed the Sony way instead! :D

[menage]

Still going to buy a PS3?

No, I'd rather buy a vacuumcleaner, at least I know it is going to suck.

[DCJoeDog]

I will buy a PS3, 5-6 years from now LOL, when the price is reasonable and HD penetration is more a reality than a future estimate, also, MY HDTV DOESN'T HAVE AN HDMI port, yeah, I'm bitter. Heck, I JUST got a ps2 so why do I need a PS3 so soon LOL

[Siraris]

I will buy a PS3, 5-6 years from now LOL, when the price is reasonable and HD penetration is more a reality than a future estimate, also, MY HDTV DOESN'T HAVE AN HDMI port, yeah, I'm bitter. Heck, I JUST got a ps2 so why do I need a PS3 so soon LOL

ROFLMAO THAT'S HILARIOUS!!!

[Johan]

Still going to buy a PS3? Because thats what Sony is counting on, that they can do anything they want and people will whine and bitch, then buy a PS3 anyway.

I'm not, but I hear the distinct sound of a herd of cowsumers on the moooooooooooove in the direction of doing just that. :mad:

[Royal Fool]

Does someone out there have a comprehensive list of every infamous thing done by Sony lately?

[Beelzebud]

My TV and monitor were made by Sony.

My next ones will not be. It's that simple.

[lockwoodx]

I used lik sang once or twice. Prompt very professional service and they always sent me free goodies too!!

My only complaint would be they didn't accept american express.

[BigJonno]

What makes all this worse is that the only way Sony can actually lose money on imports is when they're artificially jacking up the prices. If I buy a Japanese PS3 instead of a European one I'm still buying a PS3. It's not like Sony are going to sell fewer consoles because of imports.

Wankers.

[Ph00p]

Wow an all out Sony hating thread, well hell I'm in! But they've really earned this shit and even PAID for it too, hopefully this will help push Blueray to an early grave, although sadly most Sony fanbois will have this forgotten not too long from now :( ah well, without further delay:

FUCK YOU SONY.

[cannedpasta]

Fuck You Sony!

[Netami]

Sheesh... That was a lousy thing to do.

[Disgustipated]

Sony: Paving the way for boycotts and lost sales.

[Kelegacy]

Yeah, I agree this is bad, but everyone hating Sony even more? Remember when Microsoft shut down the Halo fan project? Do you hate Microsoft or Bungie as well, never going to buy an other of their products? Companies do this shit all the time. A lot of the hate here is coming from haters of Sony already, so it's nothing really shocking.

[Morangie]

Yeah, I agree this is bad, but everyone hating Sony even more? Remember when Microsoft shut down the Halo fan project? Do you hate Microsoft or Bungie as well, never going to buy an other of their products? Companies do this shit all the time. A lot of the hate here is coming from haters of Sony already, so it's nothing really shocking.
Microsoft shut down a mod using their IP. Lik-Sang were selling Sony products to people who wanted to buy Sony products. This has nothing to do with Microsoft but deflecting attention to them works just as well as not supporting the business that wants to screw the customer, right?

[rein]

Like most of the people posting in this thread are Sony fans to begin with. :rolleyes:

Lik-sang has been through this before, first with Nintendo, and then with the launch of the PS2. I will say it again, they lost the first lawsuit when they exported PS2 systems. Why the hell would you turn around and do the same thing with the PSP? They were idiots for trying to do export another Sony console after losing the first time around.

[Kelegacy]

You don't just sue someone because they sell your products. There is other stuff at play here.

[Siraris]

http://www.lik-sang.com/news.php?artc=2707

http://www.out-law.com/page-3659

So Nintendo has sued Lik-Sang twice, and Microsoft has sued them as well, but let's all fuck Sony.

It's also important to point out that Sony has not sued any other importer other than Lik-Sang, so obviously there is more than meets the eye here.

I'd expect the knee jerk reaction in here from some of the more "immature" people on this forum, but I'm surprised by the reaction by the more "mature" people on here.

I also like that people like Kamalot have this inside knowledge of what has gone on between Lik-Sang and Sony (based purely on conjecture and a posting on Lik-Sangs site). It again comes down to people on the internet thinking they know everything about everything.

[Delenda]

I actually bought a Japanese PSP through Lik-Sang and they couldn't have been easier to deal with =( I've been importing stuff from them for years and only ever had one small hiccup that they dealt with straight away. I'm a little late to the party, but fuck you Sony.

[Sony]

Suck it Lik-sang. :D

[Kamalot]

http://www.lik-sang.com/news.php?artc=2707

http://www.out-law.com/page-3659

So Nintendo has sued Lik-Sang twice, and Microsoft has sued them as well, but let's all fuck Sony.Didn't Nintendo sue Lik-Sang for selling copy-devices? I seem to remember Lik-Sang selling blank GBA carts that would let you download a GBA ROM off of the Internet, put it on the cart and play it on your GBA without having to buy the game.

That is whole hell of a lot different than selling imported products; products that you still have to buy games for. Sony makes money off of the products if they are sold through Lik-Sang or not.

Yes, Sony is being a complete corporate asshole, even if YOU don't like it.

Of all the things you defend Sony for, can you find no fault in them?

[Morangie]

So Nintendo has sued Lik-Sang twice, and Microsoft has sued them as well, but let's all fuck Sony.
Nintendo and Microsoft sued because they were selling mod chips and flash carts used for piracy. Sony sued because.... they hate Europe? They think we like waiting months for their products? Oh thats right, they do!

It's also important to point out that Sony has not sued any other importer other than Lik-Sang, so obviously there is more than meets the eye here.
Yet.

I'd expect the knee jerk reaction in here from some of the more "immature" people on this forum, but I'm surprised by the reaction by the more "mature" people on here.
Yeah, how dare you all be angry that Sony have forced a great importer to shut down!

I also like that people like Kamalot have this inside knowledge of what has gone on between Lik-Sang and Sony (based purely on conjecture and a posting on Lik-Sangs site). It again comes down to people on the internet thinking they know everything about everything.
Then lets go by what Lik-Sang say. They say it was Sony. I've ordered from them a lot and have no reason to doubt them.

[cppcrusader]

http://www.lik-sang.com/news.php?artc=2707

http://www.out-law.com/page-3659

So Nintendo has sued Lik-Sang twice, and Microsoft has sued them as well, but let's all fuck Sony.

It's also important to point out that Sony has not sued any other importer other than Lik-Sang, so obviously there is more than meets the eye here.

I'd expect the knee jerk reaction in here from some of the more "immature" people on this forum, but I'm surprised by the reaction by the more "mature" people on here.

I also like that people like Kamalot have this inside knowledge of what has gone on between Lik-Sang and Sony (based purely on conjecture and a posting on Lik-Sangs site). It again comes down to people on the internet thinking they know everything about everything.

There's a huge difference between sueing them for mod-chips and gba cart copiers and sueing them for importing hardware.

[51|RandoM]

You bandwagon people are clueless. You act like Sony is the only company that sued Lik-Sang. Well guess what? Microsoft and Nintendo sued them too.

If Lik-Sang would stop doing things to get themselves sued, I'd expect they'd still be in business. On the other hand, their complete willingness to sell piracy tools makes me happy they're gone, regardless of how great a job they did with legitimate imports.

Its interesting, on a gamer site, to see so many people upset about the demise of a company that made most of its money to the detriment of the industry producing the games they love. Interesting, and sad.

You guys should look into exactly what Sony's complaint is this time around, it is just as valid as their last issue. Regional distribution rights are a fairly important aspect of the business, with a good deal of money involved---which is why Lik-Sang could make money skimming off the top of it.

[RMan]

Well, it’s sad to see them go, but I have serious doubts about the reasons for it. Bottom line, if their margins are so tight that not being able to sell PSP or PS3s breaks them, then they were going down anyway. My bet is they’ve been teetering on the edge of going out of business for some time, and this was just the straw that broke the camel’s back (and before that, I’m sure they had plenty of cease and desist letters from Sony). I’m sure there was a fair amount of Sony being jerks, but their wholly righteous position smells pretty fishy to me.

[BlackPete]

http://www.lik-sang.com/news.php?artc=2707

http://www.out-law.com/page-3659

So Nintendo has sued Lik-Sang twice, and Microsoft has sued them as well, but let's all fuck Sony.

From your own links -- Microsoft and Nintendo sued over modchips and "backup devices". While they're technically legal, they're in such a gray area that it was hard to rally any kind of support so people just muttered then moved on. (I personally didn't agree with the results of those lawsuits but whatever...)

However, this latest lawsuit was over imports. No modchips, backups, piracy sexiness, etc. involved.

I'll say this again: Sony sued Lik-sang over imported hardware. That's it. Period. Sony's excuse? "...Ultimately, we're trying to protect consumers from being sold hardware that does not conform to strict EU or UK consumer safety standards, due to voltage supply differences et cetera".

Oh yeah, it's all about the consumers and protecting them... however, I'm going to call a spade a spade: That's a bullshit excuse and anyone with a brain will recognize it for what it is.

Take away selling imports and there's NOTHING Lik-sang has left to sell. Except maybe to its own Hong Kong customers, but that's not what Lik-Sang was about. Worse yet, this isn't just about Lik-Sang. A precedent has been set regarding imports in general. Sony can now go after anyone and close down any online retailers and use this case as a precedent. The only thing that'll stop them is if this case gets overturned... which will probably never happen.

[BlackPete]

If Lik-Sang would stop doing things to get themselves sued, I'd expect they'd still be in business. On the other hand, their complete willingness to sell piracy tools makes me happy they're gone, regardless of how great a job they did with legitimate imports.

Its interesting, on a gamer site, to see so many people upset about the demise of a company that made most of its money to the detriment of the industry producing the games they love. Interesting, and sad.

Oh yeah because Lik-Sang was hurting Sony by, um, selling Sony products. I can see how that'd be detrimental to the industry too.

[Kamalot]

If Lik-Sang would stop doing things to get themselves sued, I'd expect they'd still be in business. On the other hand, their complete willingness to sell piracy tools makes me happy they're gone, regardless of how great a job they did with legitimate imports.

Its interesting, on a gamer site, to see so many people upset about the demise of a company that made most of its money to the detriment of the industry producing the games they love. Interesting, and sad.
You and Siraris amaze me with your total resistance to logic.

You both win the daily Sony Blinders award.

http://www.iplayalot.com/sony/blinders.gif

Enjoy

[Spigot]

Well, this does suck. I'm glad I ordered my Phoenix Wright 2 from Play Asia instead, but the one time I did use Lik-Sang to get Ouendan it was nothing short of phenomenal service.

Oh well. Good thing I don't import very often, but it does suck to see one of the more reliable sources for imports shut down.

[Siraris]

Then lets go by what Lik-Sang say. They say it was Sony. I've ordered from them a lot and have no reason to doubt them.

Because Lik-Sang is an unbiased party here, and the fact that they put up no legal fight against this, yet fought over every other previous lawsuit by Sony/Microsoft and Nintendo, so obviously Sony just crippled them with legal fees and they had to shut their doors... oh and they did the same thing at least once or twice before as well.

People seriously need to get it through their heads that they are talking out of their asses. I'm sorry if you're upset Lik-Sang has temporarily shut down their site, but you'll survive. You all have absolutely no clue what has occured between Sony and Lik-Sang to bring this about, but obviously it isn't about importing PSP's to the UK, is it? Considering you can import PSP's from other sites and Sony isn't suing them, right? Considering that Lik-Sang did not even show up to court to fight the lawsuit, correct? Isn't that odd? "Hong Kong's laws are clear when it comes to parallel trade, and the company has no ties whatsoever with the UK."

Obviously Sony is out to get all importers, since they only went after Lik-Sang. They're out to fuck all the consumers in the ass and give them the finger. I mean they are suing every single importer of Playstation products to the EU, correct? Er, no? Just one? That has had legal issues going back 5 years now? Huh...

[Phades]

This does suck, never like to see a company go out of business.

I don't really see how people can blame Sony though. Obviously they felt that Lik-Sang was doing something that was hurting their company and they sued them over it. I'd be more inclined to blame the court systems. If the lawsuit really was that stupid and baseless, it shouldn't be allowed to get filed.

[Siraris]

You and Siraris amaze me with your total resistance to logic.

You have to be one of the most ignorant people I've ever seen in my life. What in the world is logical about what you are arguing? Are you actually saying that the High Court of HK is WRONG and YOU are right?

Everyone in this thread who is flaming Sony for this is casting all their logic out the window and going entirely on their blind hatred of the company. There is absolutely nothing logical in any realm of thinking in saying "FUCK SONY FOR SHUTTING DOWN LIK-SANG" when a federal institution has ruled against Lik-Sang, and that Lik-Sang completely forfeited their rights by not even showing up in court.

I don't care how many pictures you post Kamalot, there is absolutely nothing that is logical in your hatred for Sony.

[EternalGamer]

I think Lik-sang provided a great service, and I used them on a number of occasions. I also disagree with the lawsuit Sony brought against them because I find it petty. However the way people try to polarize this issue as Sony being the devil and Lik-Sang being the angel is really ridiculious.

Lik-Sang has engaged in a number of very shady business practices, and they did so to help their own bottom line, many times at the expense of the the developers through their sale of pirate friendly products. Sony, likewise, in this scenario was just looking out for their own bottom line; they were acting no more or less selfish than what Lik-sang did on a regular basis.

This is not a good guy versus bad guy scenario. This is a "one selfish bastard" beat the shit out of another selfish bastard because the former was bigger scenario. I like the first selfish bastard because he makes awesome games and game systems despiste the fact that he is a bastard. I liked the second bastard because he had good service and wide variety of products. But in the end, I can't really be sympathetic to either one over the other.

[GunnyMo]

It seems Sony is the Japanese equivalent of the Republican Party. They use fear and strong arm tactics to get what they want. :D

[Goronmon]

There is absolutely nothing logical in any realm of thinking in saying "FUCK SONY FOR SHUTTING DOWN LIK-SANG" when a federal institution has ruled against Lik-Sang, and that Lik-Sang completely forfeited their rights by not even showing up in court.Yeah, you're right, who could possibly argue with the flawless logic of repeating a Sony press release. It's brilliance!

[51|RandoM]

Oh yeah because Lik-Sang was hurting Sony by, um, selling Sony products. I can see how that'd be detrimental to the industry too.

Do you think somebody at Sony just spins a wheel to decide who and when to sue?

FFS, they had to be doing something that was "hurting Sony" or why would Sony go to the expense of suing them?

[BlackPete]

Obviously Sony is out to get all importers, since they only went after Lik-Sang. They're out to fuck all the consumers in the ass and give them the finger. I mean they are suing every single importer of Playstation products to the EU, correct? Er, no? Just one? That has had legal issues going back 5 years now? Huh...

The rest of your quote I didn't bother with because I agree there's likely more to the story than what's being reported. Also, I'm not particularly sympathetic to Lik-Sang themselves as they do have a spotty record themselves.

However, this is EXACTLY why Sony picked them as a prime target. If you want to set a legal precedent, pick the weakest and dirtiest target you can find and the courts will likely be on your side. Hell, look at your own quotes -- you support Sony because "Hey, Lik-Sang got sued in the past, I'm not feeling sorry for them..."

Then once you've won, you can use this as a legal precedent to go after the more upscale and honest retailers. And THAT is when the shit will hit the fan. THAT is what pisses me off about this whole deal.

Sony *hates* imports because it neutralizes the global market. There's a saying: Corporations love all the benefits of globalization (cheap labour) and hate all its detriments (normalized prices). They're just trying to have their cake and eat it too.

Make no mistake: They're not doing this because they're looking out for your best interests.

[51|RandoM]

It seems Sony is the Japanese equivalent of the Republican Party. They use fear and strong arm tactics to get what they want. :D

Look up FUD in the wiki... and see who really knows how to do it.

;)

[BlackPete]

Do you think somebody at Sony just spins a wheel to decide who and when to sue?

FFS, they had to be doing something that was "hurting Sony" or why would Sony go to the expense of suing them?

See my earlier post to Siraris about why Sony hates imports.

[Goronmon]

FFS, they had to be doing something that was "hurting Sony" or why would Sony go to the expense of suing them?I guess I could be sued because I'm not buying enough Sony products, therefore I must be "hurting Sony".

[BigJonno]

Siraris, I really don't think you can call anyone ignorant for not siding with Sony on this one. It's not blind Sony-hate, it's being concerned about how the situation affects us, the consumers.

Importing is a time-honoured tradition for hardcore gamers. The likes of Sony are against it because a) they like to squeeze as much money out of us as possible and blame it on "localisation costs" and the like and b) part of their big corporate macho posturing is having everyone do things on their terms. By playing on a Japanese console when you are *GASP* not in Japan, you are slightly shrivelling their corpor-wang. If everyone did this, their corpor-wang would be tiny and MS would laugh at them in the showers.

I want to be able to import games and consoles if I wish. Lik-Sang enable me to do this. Sony stop me from doing this. Who am I going to side with?

[Kamalot]

I guess I could be sued because I'm not buying enough Sony products, therefore I must be "hurting Sony".
I think what he means by 'hurting Sony' is 'preventing Sony from using geography as an excuse to rape customers'.

[51|RandoM]

I guess I could be sued because I'm not buying enough Sony products, therefore I must be "hurting Sony".

I'd sue you for being an idiot, if I could.

[51|RandoM]

See my earlier post to Siraris about why Sony hates imports.

I don't need your post to know why Sony hates imports, especially when you get all retarded and go off on cheap labor and a million other things.

Doesn't matter where Sony stuff gets imported, they're going to be manufactured in the same places they always do. Sony doesn't even do most of the manufacturing, matter of fact, so you really need to pick another presumably ignorant and incorrect stance.

Sony hates imports for the reason I already said, the regional distribution rights business. They sell those, you know? If anybody can just start importing and distributing Sony product, then suddenly those distribution rights lose value, which YES DOES HURT SONY.

It is their business, they're going to protect it, or lose it. Interestingly enough, the courts involved agree with Sony's position.

A two-faced Lik-Sang promoter of piracy starts crying about big, bad Sony and you suddenly forget all the shit Lik-Sang has done. It is comical.

[NonSoft]

I think Lik-sang provided a great service, and I used them on a number of occasions. I also disagree with the lawsuit Sony brought against them because I find it petty. However the way people try to polarize this issue as Sony being the devil and Lik-Sang being the angel is really ridiculious.

Lik-Sang has engaged in a number of very shady business practices, and they did so to help their own bottom line, many times at the expense of the the developers through their sale of pirate friendly products. Sony, likewise, in this scenario was just looking out for their own bottom line; they were acting no more or less selfish than what Lik-sang did on a regular basis.

This is not a good guy versus bad guy scenario. This is a "one selfish bastard" beat the shit out of another selfish bastard because the former was bigger scenario. I like the first selfish bastard because he makes awesome games and game systems despiste the fact that he is a bastard. I liked the second bastard because he had good service and wide variety of products. But in the end, I can't really be sympathetic to either one over the other.

Exactly.

When it comes to Sony related news on this site you have to wade through 10 pages of shit before you come to a logical post.

[Morangie]

Siraris, I really don't think you can call anyone ignorant for not siding with Sony on this one. It's not blind Sony-hate, it's being concerned about how the situation affects us, the consumers.
Siraris can. If Sony said they would kill a puppy for every PS3 sold, he would dig out figures on the number of stray dogs in the world to show how Sony was doing you a favour by cleaning up the streets.

[Kamalot]

Siraris can. If Sony said they would kill a puppy for every PS3 sold, he would dig out figures on the number of stray dogs in the world to show how Sony was doing you a favour by cleaning up the streets.
L
M
A
O
!!
:D

[Gorvi]

Make no mistake: They're not doing this because they're looking out for your best interests.

And if you think MS, Nintendo, or any other company who's products you purchase has your best interest in mind, I've got a bridge to sell you. The bottom line here is that Sony went after a company that was having a negative effect on their business strategy. This happens every day around the world in all facets of business. The fact that Lik-Sang had a reputation for selling questionably legal materials in the past probably garners more support for Sony's actions against them from around the industry than most people realize.

[Siraris]

The rest of your quote I didn't bother with because I agree there's likely more to the story than what's being reported. Also, I'm not particularly sympathetic to Lik-Sang themselves as they do have a spotty record themselves.

However, this is EXACTLY why Sony picked them as a prime target. If you want to set a legal precedent, pick the weakest and dirtiest target you can find and the courts will likely be on your side. Hell, look at your own quotes -- you support Sony because "Hey, Lik-Sang got sued in the past, I'm not feeling sorry for them..."

Then once you've won, you can use this as a legal precedent to go after the more upscale and honest retailers. And THAT is when the shit will hit the fan. THAT is what pisses me off about this whole deal.

Sony *hates* imports because it neutralizes the global market. There's a saying: Corporations love all the benefits of globalization (cheap labour) and hate all its detriments (normalized prices). They're just trying to have their cake and eat it too.

Make no mistake: They're not doing this because they're looking out for your best interests.

I never said they are looking out for my best interests. I also personally don't care if Lik-Sang goes away. I can import my stuff from elsewhere and have never used Lik-Sang before. There are many other places that have never engaged in illegal activity on their site where I can legitimately import content. NCSX and Playasia are both great companies to deal with.

I do not know the laws of the world, but I don't believe it is illegal to import something from another country, such as an electronic device. Perhaps you have to go through the proper channels, but it's not illegal. Lik-Sang is obviously operating under illegal pretences or the court would not have held up the lawsuit. You can't just file a lawsuit, it has to be approved first. As long as other legitimate importers are not breaking any laws, Sony can not do anything against them.

[Kamalot]

And if you think MS, Nintendo, or any other company who's products you purchase has your best interest in mind, I've got a bridge to sell you. The bottom line here is that Sony went after a company that was having a negative effect on their business strategy. This happens every day around the world in all facets of business. The fact that Lik-Sang had a reputation for selling questionably legal materials in the past probably garners more support for Sony's actions against them from around the industry than most people realize.
Nobody is arguing that companies look out for themselves. The difference is that Sony is doing it under the GUISE of consumer safety. It would be one thing to have Sony bring a lawsuit saying that imports hurt their business. They didn't do that though. They are holding up a pretence of customer safety and bringing a tidal wave of lawsuits on a small company in order to crush them, all in the name of public good.

It is total bullshit.

[Kamalot]

Lik-Sang is obviously operating under illegal pretences or the court would not have held up the lawsuit. You can't just file a lawsuit, it has to be approved first. As long as other legitimate importers are not breaking any laws, Sony can not do anything against them.Obviously?

How can it be obvious? There was no trial or hearing. Sony sends a flood of lawsuits that Lik-Sang can't hope to fight about 'customer safety' having to do with electrical current differences between Japan and Europe.

It is obvious that Sony has a lot of legal funding
It is obvious that Lik-Sang does not have a lot of legal funding
It is obvious that Sony is NOT acting in consumer's best interest

There is NOTHING obvious about Lik-Sang 'operating under illegal pretences' as you put it.

Sony just bulldozed a company that has been a great service to gamers.

Edit: Siraris, in your world, it seems that people are guilty before proven innocent.

[Gorvi]

Nobody is arguing that companies look out for themselves. The difference is that Sony is doing it under the GUISE of consumer safety. It would be one thing to have Sony bring a lawsuit saying that imports hurt their business. They didn't do that though. They are holding up a pretence of customer safety and bringing a tidal wave of lawsuits on a small company in order to crush them, all in the name of public good.

It is total bullshit.

So let me get this straight. If Sony had come out and said something to the effect of "We're sueing the hell out of them because they're negatively effecting our global distribution etc....." you'd be ok with this? Regardless of what they come out and say in a press release, they went after them for a reason, and Lik-Sang is closing for a reason.

[Kamalot]

So let me get this straight. If Sony had come out and said something to the effect of "We're sueing the hell out of them because they're negatively effecting our global distribution etc....." you'd be ok with this? Regardless of what they come out and say in a press release, they went after them for a reason, and Lik-Sang is closing for a reason.
No matter the lawsuit Sony used for this, the end result still sucks. I'm willing to bet that Sony couldn't put forth a lawsuit based on selling imported goods alone so they had to find a loophole.

You are right though, the end result is the same. Sony has the muscle and pockets to mount a legal assult from several countries at the same time. What would any smaller company do? What would YOU do if Sony dropped multiple lawsuits on you at the same time?

[Siraris]

Siraris, I really don't think you can call anyone ignorant for not siding with Sony on this one. It's not blind Sony-hate, it's being concerned about how the situation affects us, the consumers.

Importing is a time-honoured tradition for hardcore gamers. The likes of Sony are against it because a) they like to squeeze as much money out of us as possible and blame it on "localisation costs" and the like and b) part of their big corporate macho posturing is having everyone do things on their terms. By playing on a Japanese console when you are *GASP* not in Japan, you are slightly shrivelling their corpor-wang. If everyone did this, their corpor-wang would be tiny and MS would laugh at them in the showers.

I want to be able to import games and consoles if I wish. Lik-Sang enable me to do this. Sony stop me from doing this. Who am I going to side with?

Isn't it odd that the PS3 is region free, meaning you can play any game from anywhere in the world on your PS3? Why would Sony do that if they were actually cracking down on importing games?

You are all making this into Sony versus importers when it's SONY vs LIK-SANG. Have they gone after NCSX? Play-Asia? How about Importmadness.com or next-gen.co.uk? Or any of the other many import game sites?

This is purely a knee jerk reaction by people. Sony can't go after other companies unless they are breaking the law.

[BlackPete]

A two-faced Lik-Sang promoter of piracy starts crying about big, bad Sony and you suddenly forget all the shit Lik-Sang has done. It is comical.

That right there proves that you haven't been paying attention. Again, read my post to Siraris about what my beef really is.

The reason I don't bother going into a lengthy post to you is because (as you've already demonstrated), you don't really read posts except to see what you want to read, and post a strawman argument.

[BlackPete]

I do not know the laws of the world, but I don't believe it is illegal to import something from another country, such as an electronic device. Perhaps you have to go through the proper channels, but it's not illegal. Lik-Sang is obviously operating under illegal pretences or the court would not have held up the lawsuit. You can't just file a lawsuit, it has to be approved first. As long as other legitimate importers are not breaking any laws, Sony can not do anything against them.

This is the part I wish it was reported on in more depth. I agree it is odd that Lik-Sang didn't bother showing up in courts -- why not? Too many battles to fight? They decided to spare the lawyer fees and just close up shop instead? That's one likely scenario -- but I'd still like more details on that nonetheless.

Either way, I'm not a HK lawyer but if it's anything like the justice system here in Canada, if one party doesn't show up or present a case, then the court has no choice but to find in favour of the other party. So Lik-Sang essentially handed Sony an easy victory simply by not showing up. I really want to know why.

It just so happens that this particular victory is one that scares me -- it's a HUGE baseball bat that Sony can wave over online retailers heads. One that I desperately wish they didn't have.

[Gorvi]

You are right though, the end result is the same. Sony has the muscle and pockets to mount a legal assult from several countries at the same time. What would any smaller company do? What would YOU do if Sony dropped multiple lawsuits on you at the same time?

Honestly, I wouldn't make myself a target of a company like Sony to begin with. Truth be told, maybe I'm just glad to see Lik-Sang gone. Any company that would sell tools that have the sole purpose of making piracy easier should be put out of business in my opinion.

[Siraris]

Obviously?

How can it be obvious? There was no trial or hearing. Sony sends a flood of lawsuits that Lik-Sang can't hope to fight about 'customer safety' having to do with electrical current differences between Japan and Europe.

It is obvious that Sony has a lot of legal funding
It is obvious that Lik-Sang does not have a lot of legal funding
It is obvious that Sony is NOT acting in consumer's best interest

There is NOTHING obvious about Lik-Sang 'operating under illegal pretences' as you put it.

Sony just bulldozed a company that has been a great service to gamers.

Edit: Siraris, in your world, it seems that people are guilty before proven innocent.

If they weren't doing something illegal, Sony couldn't bring a lawsuit against them... If they weren't doing something illegal Lik-Sang would have gone to the hearing and asked to have the case thrown out. This wasn't some drawn out trial that was costing them millions of dollars, they could have spent less than $10,000 disputing the case.

Lik-Sang has, up until this day, been breaking the law in numerous different ways. Sony's lawsuit against them initially was that they were hosting copyrighted material on their website IE PSP manuals. This is illegal, they did not take this illegal information down. If you are running a site like this, and have gone through this many times before, you would think you would KNOW better and not swat the hornets nest. This is NOT some mom and pop store that Sony is going after, this is a website that has had numerous lawsuits and has commited numerous illegal activities in the past and is still practicing those activities today.

Somehow Lik-Sang was able to fight Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony on multiple other occasions, why not now?

I don't care what services they were providing for gamers, they were breaking the law, and Sony took advantage of that. Regardless of what Sony had against them, they fucked up, and now they pay the price. It's called being responsible. There's plenty of other importers out there that provide gamers a service without doing anything illegal, so maybe you should start shopping with them.

Put all the words you want in my mouth, Kamalot, and lob personal attacks on me and post that asinine picture you have. You are arguing this purely on your hatred for Sony, everyone knows this, it's clear as day, and you're the only person who seems to think otherwise.

[Siraris]

This is the part I wish it was reported on in more depth. I agree it is odd that Lik-Sang didn't bother showing up in courts -- why not? Too many battles to fight? They decided to spare the lawyer fees and just close up shop instead? That's one likely scenario -- but I'd still like more details on that nonetheless.

Either way, I'm not a HK lawyer but if it's anything like the justice system here in Canada, if one party doesn't show up or present a case, then the court has no choice but to find in favour of the other party. So Lik-Sang essentially handed Sony an easy victory simply by not showing up. I really want to know why.

It just so happens that this particular victory is one that scares me -- it's a HUGE baseball bat that Sony can wave over online retailers heads. One that I desperately wish they didn't have.

My father does a lot of business with east asia, and his factory has a plant on mainland China. I'll give him a call later and ask him what the exact rules are in regards to this type of situation. I'll let you know what he says about what the laws are.

But again, if they were not performing illegal activities, it would have cost them very little money to come into court and have it thrown out.

[51|RandoM]

No matter the lawsuit Sony used for this, the end result still sucks. I'm willing to bet that Sony couldn't put forth a lawsuit based on selling imported goods alone so they had to find a loophole.


You know who decided the end result? Lik-Sang decided the end result.

They could've ceased the business practices involving Sony products that Sony had issue with. They decided not to.

They could've defended themselves in court. They decided not to.

Instead they threw in the towel, and threw out the typical things you hear from sore losers.

Your loophole comment is funny, considering Lik-Sang's entire business exists in the space made by such loopholes.

[Gorvi]

This is the part I wish it was reported on in more depth. I agree it is odd that Lik-Sang didn't bother showing up in courts -- why not? Too many battles to fight? They decided to spare the lawyer fees and just close up shop instead? That's one likely scenario -- but I'd still like more details on that nonetheless.

Either way, I'm not a HK lawyer but if it's anything like the justice system here in Canada, if one party doesn't show up or present a case, then the court has no choice but to find in favour of the other party. So Lik-Sang essentially handed Sony an easy victory simply by not showing up. I really want to know why.

It just so happens that this particular victory is one that scares me -- it's a HUGE baseball bat that Sony can wave over online retailers heads. One that I desperately wish they didn't have.

I agree with you on many of your points. It would be nice to know why Lik-Sang didn't show up for their hearing at all. It's not like they would have had to appear in every country charges were filed in on the same day.

I don't think this sets a precedent, however, that Sony could use to shut down other importers if that's their motive. Any judge with half a brain would see why the ruling was made and hopefully not take this into consideration based on that.

[Morangie]

Isn't it odd that the PS3 is region free, meaning you can play any game from anywhere in the world on your PS3? Why would Sony do that if they were actually cracking down on importing games?
Sony: The PS3 is region free, but if you live in Europe you can't have one.

[divinechaos]

FUCK.YOU.SONY.

They were at least selling your goddamn systems.

I am fucking PISSED!

[Gorvi]

Sony: The PS3 is region free, but if you live in Europe you can't have one.

Or, you know, wait until they actually launch them there in March? You act as if Sony is sitting on a huge stockpile of PS3's, pointing and laughing at all of Europe.....

[Norse]

Or, you know, wait until they actually launch them there in March? You act as if Sony is sitting on a huge stockpile of PS3's, pointing and laughing at all of Europe.....

Yeah they're laughing alright. Laughing because they know millions will buy their media machine blindly.

[BigJonno]

Isn't it odd that the PS3 is region free, meaning you can play any game from anywhere in the world on your PS3? Why would Sony do that if they were actually cracking down on importing games?

Wow, a console manafacturer is promising a region free console. Again. Tell you what, the day I play an American or Japanese imported game on a European PS3 I will PM you and let you know you were right all along.

Your arguements that Sony wouldn't sue unless Lik Sang were definitely doing something illegal holds little water and shows an extreme naivety when it comes to the practices of your average corporation's legal department.

The bottom line of this is that Sony have limited our purchasing options and set a dangerous legal precedent concerning videogame imports, all under the pretense of acting in our best interests. This is undisputable fact and you're not going to find many people supporting it, even those who are usually strong supporters of Sony. See Borys' comments in this thread.

[mkelehan]

This reminds me of the closing of Working Designs, in that I can find the same fault. For WD, why not just focus on other consoles? For LS, why not just stop shipping Sony products to Europe?

[Kamalot]

If they weren't doing something illegal, Sony couldn't bring a lawsuit against them... If they weren't doing something illegal Lik-Sang would have gone to the hearing and asked to have the case thrown out.
:confused:

In what world do you live, where having a lawsuit filed against you makes you guilty?

[Siraris]

:confused:

In what world do you live, where having a lawsuit filed against you makes you guilty?

In what world do you live in that it's OK to put words in someones mouth? You do it over and over again as opposed to actually making coherent arguments.

[Kamalot]

In what world do you live in that it's OK to put words in someones mouth? You do it over and over again as opposed to actually making coherent arguments.
Okay. Then I'll try this again, without asking you a question and giving you a clear opportunity to explain what you meant.

If they weren't doing something illegal, Sony couldn't bring a lawsuit against them... If they weren't doing something illegal Lik-Sang would have gone to the hearing and asked to have the case thrown out.

Siraris: You are wrong.

Bringing a lawsuit does NOT mean Lik-Sang was doing something illegal. I means that Sony has lawyers. I can file a lawsuit against anyone for just about anything. If you can't fight it in court, I win.

[gzsfrk]

In what world do you live in that it's OK to put words in someones mouth? You do it over and over again as opposed to actually making coherent arguments.

Umm... you said this:

If they weren't doing something illegal, Sony couldn't bring a lawsuit against them...

That was simultaneously the most naive and rationalizing thing I've read in weeks. Innocent people get sued all the time. A lot of them settle out of court to avoid court costs and/or the risk of a judge finding against them despite their innocence. ("Innocence", of course, being a highly subjective state.)

I'm not saying Lik-Sang was or was not innocent with regard to the grounds upon which Sony sued them, but your statement above is naive, worthless, and certainly not worth repeating as a point in your argument, as you have been in your last couple posts.

[Norse]

This thread is awesome. Exactly why I visit this site :)

[Heretic Machine]

You are all making this into Sony versus importers when it's SONY vs LIK-SANG. Have they gone after NCSX? Play-Asia? How about Importmadness.com or next-gen.co.uk? Or any of the other many import game sites?

How many times are you going to post that? People have already responded to it, and you just keep posting it.

[Kamalot]

But again, if they were not performing illegal activities, it would have cost them very little money to come into court and have it thrown out.
Do you have any idea if the courts are in Hong Kong? From the sounds of the Lik-Sang home page, Sony was dealing with European courts.

If this is the case, Lik-Sang would have had to hire lawyers from each respective country to represent it in court. That is no small feat and would be very costly.

If any of us was asked to defend ourselves in multiple countries, would we be able to do it? Sony has a lot of muscle to slam around the little shops. That's exactly what they did. There is little to stop them from utilizing the same tactic on other import shops.

[Kem0sabe]

Sony has every right to defend their products, and they may choose any means to do it. Microsoft has done far far worse to other software companies over the years.

Anyone saying that sony should have just left Lik-Sang alone is living in fairy la-la land.

[Siraris]

That was simultaneously the most naive and rationalizing thing I've read in weeks. Innocent people get sued all the time. A lot of them settle out of court to avoid court costs and/or the risk of a judge finding against them despite their innocence. ("Innocence", of course, being a highly subjective state.)

I'm not saying Lik-Sang was or was not innocent with regard to the grounds upon which Sony sued them, but your statement above is naive, worthless, and certainly not worth repeating as a point in your argument, as you have been in your last couple posts.

I made a typo, it should say wouldn't. I was just saying that I doubt Sony would have brought a lawsuit against Lik Sang if Lik Sang wasn't doing something illegal. It's just like the Israeli's wouldn't bulldoze Palestinian homes if the Palestinians didn't suicide bomb innocent Israeli's.

Sorry, was listening to NPR earlier and that was the subject :)

[Kelegacy]

Exactly.

When it comes to Sony related news on this site you have to wade through 10 pages of shit before you come to a logical post.
You can always rely on EternalGamer to give you logic and coherence. Same way you can always rely on Kamalot to come into any thread with the words SONY in the newspost and display his hate.

[OrangePulp]

:confused:

In what world do you live, where having a lawsuit filed against you makes you guilty?

Are you being purposefully obtuse? If the case against them was so baseless, as some people seem to think, it probably wouldn'tve taken much effort on Lik-Sang's part to have a lawyer show up and get the case thrown out.

As to whether or not this is Sony opening the door to suing all other import companies, how about you wait and see what happens, rather than pretend you're nostra-fucking-damas. It's like all of you are on some kind of sony-hating circle-jerk.

I'm sure I'll be accused of being a Sony fanboy, which doesn't much bother me, because I'm not. But doesn't it bother some of you that you're just sony anti-fanboys?

[Siraris]

Do you have any idea if the courts are in Hong Kong? From the sounds of the Lik-Sang home page, Sony was dealing with European courts.

If this is the case, Lik-Sang would have had to hire lawyers from each respective country to represent it in court. That is no small feat and would be very costly.

If any of us was asked to defend ourselves in multiple countries, would we be able to do it? Sony has a lot of muscle to slam around the little shops. That's exactly what they did. There is little to stop them from utilizing the same tactic on other import shops.

Do I have any idea? Yes, I go and research things before I start posting about them. The article clearly states that the lawsuit was filed with the HK High Court. See, check it out. (http://psp.ign.com/articles/740/740825p1.html)

Sony first took issue with Lik-Sang in August 2005 when European gamers were importing Japanese PSPs ahead of the system's UK launch. Sony launched a lawsuit in the High Court of Hong Kong arguing that Lik-Sang advertises Sony's products "in a dishonest manner" and "unlawfully interferes with Sony's economical interests." Sony then launched a separate lawsuit against Lik-Sang in the UK.

Lik-Sang has had over 1 year to deal with this, and they didn't. Who's fault is that?

[Norse]

Do I have any idea? Yes, I go and research things before I start posting about them. The article clearly states that the lawsuit was filed with the HK High Court. See, check it out. (http://psp.ign.com/articles/740/740825p1.html)

In a statement released today, Lik-Sang says Sony has obtained a judgment from the High Court of London ruling that sales of Japanese PSPs from Lik-Sang's website to European customers is illegal. The importer says its legal representatives were not present at the hearing to argue on the company's behalf.

London or Hong Kong?? Or both??

[ElPresidente]

So remind me again why those with a grudge against Sony should put their opinions to one side and support the company who made gaming what it is today? I'll wait...

Console gaming my buckeroo... the awesome wonderment that is PC gaming has nothing to do with Sony. :P

And yes... the rise in popularity of modern console gaming is more attributable to Sony than it is Nintendo. I don't care what anyone says.

*slightly off topic... but... you know. :P*

[51|RandoM]

Sony: The PS3 is region free, but if you live in Europe you can't have one.

Yeah, those evil people at sony should've waved a magic wand and instantly created a million PS3 units compliant with EU directives.

I'm probably going out on a limb, but I'm pretty sure people in Europe can have a PS3 at some point. I know I'm giving Sony way to much credit on this one, but still.

[Kamalot]

Do I have any idea? Yes, I go and research things before I start posting about them. The article clearly states that the lawsuit was filed with the HK High Court. See, check it out. (http://psp.ign.com/articles/740/740825p1.html)



Lik-Sang has had over 1 year to deal with this, and they didn't. Who's fault is that?
Did you READ that article?

As Lik-Sang is a Hong Kong company, it claims it is operating within the laws of its own country. The London judge apparently believes, however, that Lik-Sang is violating European laws when doing business with European customers. In his ruling Judge Michael Fysh said, "The acts of which the complaint is made have, in my view, been perpetrated not in Hong Kong but here in the EEA, and without Sony's consent."

"Fighting multiple lawsuits in different countries at the same time and paying high premiums to expensive lawyers is an overwhelming situation for a small company like Lik-Sang,"

The ORIGINAL lawsuit (2005) was filed in Hong Kong. These recent lawsuits originated in Europe. The recent lawsuits are not 'over 1 year' old as you thoughtfully pointed out.

Care to try again?

[Morangie]

Or, you know, wait until they actually launch them there in March? You act as if Sony is sitting on a huge stockpile of PS3's, pointing and laughing at all of Europe.....
It annoys me Europe has to wait till next year and Sony don't want us to import their supposed region free console. But that only annoys me because Sony couldn't keep their goddamn mouths shut in the first place and promised a worldwide launch. God forbid Microsoft should have a bigger eWang.

Yeah, those evil people at sony should've waved a magic wand and instantly created a million PS3 units compliant with EU directives.

I'm probably going out on a limb, but I'm pretty sure people in Europe can have a PS3 at some point. I know I'm giving Sony way to much credit on this one, but still.
What I said above. Sony's magic wand can make millions of PS3s disappear (2 million at launch to 500k, tada!) but it can't bring some back?

[Siraris]

The ORIGINAL lawsuit (2005) was filed in Hong Kong. These recent lawsuits originated in Europe. The recent lawsuits are not 'over 1 year' old as you thoughtfully pointed out.

Care to try again?

I did read the article. Had Lik-Sang listened to Sony over a year ago, Sony wouldn't have had to level anything else gainst them.

Hell, had they listened back with the PS2, same could be said.

[Siraris]

It annoys me Europe has to wait till next year and Sony don't want us to import their supposed region free console. But that only annoys me because Sony couldn't keep their goddamn mouths shut in the first place and promised a worldwide launch. God forbid Microsoft should have a bigger eWang.

I seem to remember you saying you weren't buying a PS3 for a long time, or am I mistaken?

[BigJonno]

Has anyone found a site with more detail about the case and the judgement? I can't find anything beyond a basic summary and then Lik-Sang and Sony's subsequent bitching.

[Serapth]

Sony to Lik-Sang:

"Welcome to 4th Dimension, bitches!"

Rot in hell for cancelling customers rights, Sony.


Microsoft looking less and less evil these days Borys?

[Morangie]

I seem to remember you saying you weren't buying a PS3 for a long time, or am I mistaken?
No, quite correct. I fail to see how that means I can't be annoyed though. As I said, it only annoys me because Sony couldn't keep their mouths shut.

Its less than Europe gets it later, its that Sony said we wouldn't. I dislike lies. Wasn't there a thread a while back where you called corporate lying a good business practise? Or at least, corporate "exaggeration".

[ElPresidente]

Holy crap this thread has just gone nutty. :P

Wait wait wait. Didn't Nintendo get fined several hundred million dollars by the EU for trying to prevent retailers from importing games and systems? Or am I not remembering that correctly? Is Sony getting away with it just because they call it by a different name?

Nintendo got hit for price fixing. It was found that they maneuvered to keep prices artificially high in the EU market between 1991 and 1998. It is a competition law thing.

Yeah, I agree this is bad, but everyone hating Sony even more? Remember when Microsoft shut down the Halo fan project? Do you hate Microsoft or Bungie as well, never going to buy an other of their products? Companies do this shit all the time. A lot of the hate here is coming from haters of Sony already, so it's nothing really shocking.

I'm not jumping the Sony hate bandwagon here but unauthorised of an IP is different than buying something and then onselling it out of region.

This is purely a knee jerk reaction by people. Sony can't go after other companies unless they are breaking the law.

So very incredibly wrong.

You can sue anyone you like. The HK courts work under a dual law system which comes from the unique mix of ownership the country has had: China/England/China.

The courts prove fault after a law suit has been laid against a legal person. Big companies have long used law suits as a form of coercion on smaller companies.

It is also worth noting that civil suits are often not about breaking the law. Criminal law, yes.. civil law no. Civil suits are most often about proving wrongs (and by my use of the word 'wrongs' I don't intend to limit civil law to tort law), it is about the law deciding if the wronged party was indeed wronged by reference to what is called 'natural law'.

Anyway I'm letting the degree start to do the talking here.. the point I'm trying to make is that just because company X was able to take someone to court does not mean that company Y is in the wrong.
You are all making this into Sony versus importers when it's SONY vs LIK-SANG. Have they gone after NCSX? Play-Asia? How about Importmadness.com or next-gen.co.uk? Or any of the other many import game sites?

Sony has already gone against several importers over PSP sales and won a number of injunctions against EU companies. C'mon, it is known that more than any other company Sony does not like importers.

And it isn't like they have to take this hardline stance either. MS Australia is honouring the warranties of grey import 360s.

I have to agree with a post someone else made (I forgot who, sorry). The issue for me isn't that Sony are the big bad... it is just they don't support my early adopter niche market and their methods of doing that close down import channels for me. That I don't like.

[Serapth]

I think Lik-sang provided a great service, and I used them on a number of occasions. I also disagree with the lawsuit Sony brought against them because I find it petty. However the way people try to polarize this issue as Sony being the devil and Lik-Sang being the angel is really ridiculious.

Lik-Sang has engaged in a number of very shady business practices, and they did so to help their own bottom line, many times at the expense of the the developers through their sale of pirate friendly products. Sony, likewise, in this scenario was just looking out for their own bottom line; they were acting no more or less selfish than what Lik-sang did on a regular basis.

This is not a good guy versus bad guy scenario. This is a "one selfish bastard" beat the shit out of another selfish bastard because the former was bigger scenario. I like the first selfish bastard because he makes awesome games and game systems despiste the fact that he is a bastard. I liked the second bastard because he had good service and wide variety of products. But in the end, I can't really be sympathetic to either one over the other.

That is the most grounded, unbiased and logical thing I have ever heard you say. Bravo!

** and no, i am not being sarcastic! :D

[ElPresidente]

In other words, I'm pissed at this for entirely selfish reasons. I liked buying from LS and now they aren't there anymore.

I think that's a fair reason to be grumpy. :)

[Serapth]

The bottom line of this is that Sony have limited our purchasing options and set a dangerous legal precedent concerning videogame imports, all under the pretense of acting in our best interests.

Actually, it never went to trial, thus no precedent being set.

[Tyrant]

Honestly, I wouldn't make myself a target of a company like Sony to begin with. Truth be told, maybe I'm just glad to see Lik-Sang gone. Any company that would sell tools that have the sole purpose of making piracy easier should be put out of business in my opinion.

I'm getting pretty annoyed at the frequent use of the "well they sold items that promoted piracy" card, because from what I've noticed, THEY HAVEN'T SOLD ANY TOOLS OF PIRACY IN SEVERAL YEARS.

Instruction manuals available online?!!! Big fucking whoop. You'd get more info on a game via GameFAQs. It isn't like someone could burn their own UMDs, print off the manuals, buy several PSP game cases and sell counterfeit games based off of the materials Lik-sang provided.

[BigJonno]

A ruling was made, which was that Sony's intellectual property rights were being violated by Lik-Sang. That makes for a pretty clear precedent.

[Serapth]

Sony has every right to defend their products, and they may choose any means to do it. Microsoft has done far far worse to other software companies over the years.

Anyone saying that sony should have just left Lik-Sang alone is living in fairy la-la land.


In court??? Name 3. Microsoft has been on the receiving end of more lawsuits then on the giving end. Dont get me wrong, they did some right ruthless shit to the competition, but very rarely did they take the battles to court, and when they did, it was via proxy ( aka SCO ) or was against someone who had it coming ( aka, spammers and mass pirates ).

[BigJonno]

Best article about it I've found so far, courtesy of the Financial Times (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/f9ad7002-5f0e-11db-afac-0000779e2340.html).

Sony, the Japanese electronics group, yesterday won a High Court infringement case against a Hong Kong-based company which had been selling PlayStation computer game systems intended for the Japanese market into Europe.

Judge Michael Fysh found that various intellectual property rights belonging to Sony had been infringed by Pacific Game Technology, which also trades under the Chinese name "Lik-Sang".

[Serapth]

Best article about it I've found so far, courtesy of the Financial Times (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/f9ad7002-5f0e-11db-afac-0000779e2340.html).

But an injunction still doesnt set a precidence. Its the legal equivalent to a triage nurse.

[BigJonno]

It's still a legal case that Sony has won and a High Court ruling in their favour. Importing has always been a grey area. This ruling has brought it into the realms of intellectual property. The ruling was made in spite of the fact that Lik-Sang is a Hong Kong company operating under Hong Kong law. Sony can now go after other importers, anywhere in the world, that are selling goods to the EEA (or EC, EEC, EU or whatever they bloody well call it these days) and slap lawsuits on them. It's not 100% certain that they'll win, but you can be damn sure they'll wave this ruling about.

[BlackPete]

But an injunction still doesnt set a precidence. Its the legal equivalent to a triage nurse.

Where does it say that it was an injunction?

[51|RandoM]

What I said above. Sony's magic wand can make millions of PS3s disappear (2 million at launch to 500k, tada!) but it can't bring some back?

Obviously not. The wand is limited to producing production delays.

...but you knew that. :-)

[Kamalot]

I dislike lies. Wasn't there a thread a while back where you called corporate lying a good business practise? Or at least, corporate "exaggeration".Yes. Yes he did, as long as the lies are good for the company lying.

[Siraris]

It's still a legal case that Sony has won and a High Court ruling in their favour. Importing has always been a grey area. This ruling has brought it into the realms of intellectual property. The ruling was made in spite of the fact that Lik-Sang is a Hong Kong company operating under Hong Kong law. Sony can now go after other importers, anywhere in the world, that are selling goods to the EEA (or EC, EEC, EU or whatever they bloody well call it these days) and slap lawsuits on them. It's not 100% certain that they'll win, but you can be damn sure they'll wave this ruling about.

If it comes to the point where Sony starts slapping other importers who didn't do anthing with injunctions, I'll get pissed.

[J Arcane]

No, quite correct. I fail to see how that means I can't be annoyed though. As I said, it only annoys me because Sony couldn't keep their mouths shut.

Its less than Europe gets it later, its that Sony said we wouldn't. I dislike lies. Wasn't there a thread a while back where you called corporate lying a good business practise? Or at least, corporate "exaggeration".
Wouldn't surprise me, this is Siraris we're talking about.

At this point, I take a certain perverse amusement from of his posts. I keep thinking, with every new story, with every new fucked up thing Sony announces, maybe he'll finally find sometihng that even he can agree was a pretty fucked up thing to do. You might think that depriving an entire company of it's livelihood and driving them out of business for daring to do whatever they wanted with goods they paid for, might be one of them.

But of course, as always, he finds a way to defend Sony to the last, this time by making a lot of baseless accusations and babbling "guilty until proven innocent" type garbage.

And with every new thread, he makes it even more abundantly clear, that he's a goddamn shill. It could be announced tomorrow that the Cell processor is crafted from the souls and blood of billions of dead babies, and Siraris would be here, babbling about how they were doing the world a favor by decreasing the surplus population.

He's worse than freaking Kamalot. Even Kam, has, on ever so rare occasion, had nice things to say about the PSP, despite his insane and frothing Sony hate. Sir has no such balance, he's just a PR robot.

[Kamalot]

If it comes to the point where Sony starts slapping other importers who didn't do anthing with injunctions, I'll get pissed.
What importers 'didn't do anything'?

These lawsuits were for selling consoloes/games in regions for which they were not permitted. By that, being an import shop means you are doing something wrong.

These lawsuits were not brought upon Lik-Sang for selling modchips. There is NOTHING stopping Sony from bringing the very same hammer down on any and every import shop.

So, I ask again, what is the definition of an import that 'didn't do anything'?

[Kamalot]

He's worse than freaking Kamalot. Even Kam, has, on ever so rare occasion, had nice things to say about the PSP, despite his insane and frothing Sony hate. Sir has no such balance, he's just a PR robot.
Why thanks, I think.
I ocasionally have nice things to say about the PS3 too. :p

[51|RandoM]

It's still a legal case that Sony has won and a High Court ruling in their favour. Importing has always been a grey area. This ruling has brought it into the realms of intellectual property. The ruling was made in spite of the fact that Lik-Sang is a Hong Kong company operating under Hong Kong law. Sony can now go after other importers, anywhere in the world, that are selling goods to the EEA (or EC, EEC, EU or whatever they bloody well call it these days) and slap lawsuits on them. It's not 100% certain that they'll win, but you can be damn sure they'll wave this ruling about.


...and I'm not sure why people have an issue with it. They're Sony's products, as far as I'm concerned they have a right to decide who can and can't distribute new Sony equipment.

Since it is clear to all of the Sony haters that Sony is completely in the wrong, I'm wondering why it wasn't obvious to the judge(s) who presumably know the relevant statutes much better than most of us.

Furthermore, I don't know why Lik-Sang is going out of business just because they can't resell PSPs. I suppose PSP resales must've been a significant portion of their revenue? Kind of hard to understand.

[Royal Fool]

If Sony doesn't want me buying their products, then I won't buy them. Quite simple. Thank you, Sony, for making this so clear to all of us.

I'll make sure my next TV isn't a Sony and that my next phone won't be a Sony Ericsson. I won't buy more Walkmans either. And I will most certainly not be buying a PS3 anywhere in the near future.

[Lon Lon Rabbit]

Huh sorry to the mods when I just tried to submit this, I scanned the front page but somehow missed this one.

This is a very real reason for me to hate Sony now. Their very arrogant attitude towards us being "preveliged" to own a PS3 was stupid, but it didn't affect anyone.

This has made a bunch of people unemployed and shut down a very high quality business. I have bought a crapload from Lik-Sang over the years, and my US Wii had been preordered there since last year. Looks like I'm stuck with ebay now cos it's far too late in the game to preorder from anywhere else.

The staff were always very quick to respond to any queries I had, very friendly, and even offered me free stuff when products were delayed due to circumstances that weren't actually their fault.

This is really disgusting.

[codswallop]

Nintendo has sued Lik-Sang twice, and Microsoft has sued them as well, but let's all fuck Sony.
http://www.lik-sang.com/news.php?artc=2707 (http://www.lik-sang.com/news.php?artc=2707)
Completely different and unrelated matter; they were selling mod chips which enable piracy.

http://www.out-law.com/page-3659 (http://www.out-law.com/page-3659)
These flash carts also are mostly used for piracy (OK, not 100% of the time, but probably high 90s).

The real issue here is that Sony has sued Lik-Sang for simply selling their consoles in other regions. They weren't suing them because they were modding them, or selling equipment to pirate games; all they were doing was selling the systems to people who wanted them.

So yes, fuck Sony.

[JimmyDanger]

Thanks for the good times Lik-Sang...

Your site was more navigatable, shipping cheaper, and technical information/advice better than Play-Asia's - so I used you a fair bit.

I'll now stare sadly at the Lik-Sang sticjer on my PC case....

Oh yeah - before I forget - Fuck you Sony.

[Lon Lon Rabbit]

It's also worth noting, for everyone saying "just go to playasia instead", that lik-sang carried some things play asia did not.

Play Asia is currently not planning to get any US Wii products, for example.

I used both import stores depending on who had the better deal on the item I wanted at the time, but I have lost a lot of options by losing Lik-Sang.

[BlackPete]

If it comes to the point where Sony starts slapping other importers who didn't do anthing with injunctions, I'll get pissed.

Time to Godwin the thread :D

This reminded me of a poem:


When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
after all I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
after all I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
after all I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.


Bottom line: If you don't like this action, speak up now. Or forever remain silent.

[Serapth]

Time to Godwin the thread :D

This reminded me of a poem:



Bottom line: If you don't like this action, speak up now. Or forever remain silent.


.... Im not sure if that actually qualifies as Godwin um... ing. You alluded to a nazi reference, but didnt directly make one.

[eltee38]

sony = commiting reputation suicide. how do they expect to compete with a tarnished public image? using strong arm tactics on a well known and established importer? kaz hirai needs to comb his fucking beard.

[Kamalot]

Anyone remember Bleem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleemcast!)?

Bleem was a small company that made PlayStation emulation software for PCs. It was totally legit and used none of the PlayStation's code for emulation and ever required you to have a game disc (no ROMs) in order to play. In fact, some versions of Bleem would run PS1 games on the Dreamcast with better resolution, texture filtering and other enhancements.

Bleem was crushed by Sony in the very same way. Sony burried the tiny company under a series of legal battles that Bleem could never hope to win. Sony never won anything in court, and Bleem was totally legal, but the crushing cost and energy necessary to fight Sony squeezed Bleem off of the Earth.

Read a bit more about it here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleemcast!).

http://www.gamesfirst.com/articles/bleemcastFAQ/comparison_large.jpg

[BlackPete]

Anyone remember Bleem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleemcast!)?

I do. I also remember being pissed when they were shut out of business under the crushing lawsuits. I ranted about it back then too, but there were just too many people who had no clue what IP really was, or what was legal, what wasn't legal, etc, etc. so threads would derail into confusion.

Problem is that people just buy Big Company's bullshit about what's legal and do the company's battle for them so I just said fuck it and walked away.

I swear, if the VHS wars were being fought today, we wouldn't have VCRs today.

[Wolvie]

This fucking bites! I was planning on buying a black case for my 360. Damnit all to hell! :mad:

[Siraris]

I spoke to my father just now on the phone, and although he doesn't know the specifics (since we don't either) and he also doesn't know exactly what the laws are in regards to electronic products, he couldn't make that substantial of a comment. He said that based on his experience (and he deals with importing/exporting from China to all around the world every day) it's not illegal at all to buy a product from a company and sell it in another country unless there is some sort of duty of some kind. He said there also may be some sort of agreement that needs to be signed in order to resell Sony equipment.

But based on what has been said, he feels that there has to be more going on than we know. He said that unless there is some law/duty/agreement against what Lik-Sang was doing, there has to be something else going on, because no judge would have held up a lawsuit in court that had Sony suing Lik-Sang for selling their products overseas - again, unless they were doing so illegally - in which case there is nothing that they could argue in court that would exonerate them from punishment.

[Siraris]

.... Im not sure if that actually qualifies as Godwin um... ing. You alluded to a nazi reference, but didnt directly make one.

I think he's referring to the idea that waiting until something actually happens is wrong, based upon the whole not doing anything about the Holocaust.

The difference is, once people knew that it was going on they didn't do anything. Had people found out a couple days after the trains started shipping out and said "Fuck this! That's WRONG! We're stopping this!". They just let it happen and turned a blind eye.

[BlackPete]

But based on what has been said, he feels that there has to be more going on than we know. He said that unless there is some law/duty/agreement against what Lik-Sang was doing, there has to be something else going on, because no judge would have held up a lawsuit in court that had Sony suing Lik-Sang for selling their products overseas - again, unless they were doing so illegally - in which case there is nothing that they could argue in court that would exonerate them from punishment.

Sounds reasonable.

So bottom line: If there's more to the story than what's already been told, then we'll likely find out soon. Lik-Sang's closure just isn't going to go unnoticed in this industry.

However, if there ISN'T any more to this story, and it really is about banning imports, then this is a bullshit ruling to the extreme.

I'm still at work, feeling cranky over tomorrow's deadline, so I don't have time to research this case tonight. I'm definitely going to keep an eye on this case in the near future, though.

EDIT: Clarification due to missing a key word... argh... must go home soon...

[Siraris]

Wouldn't surprise me, this is Siraris we're talking about.

At this point, I take a certain perverse amusement from of his posts. I keep thinking, with every new story, with every new fucked up thing Sony announces, maybe he'll finally find sometihng that even he can agree was a pretty fucked up thing to do. You might think that depriving an entire company of it's livelihood and driving them out of business for daring to do whatever they wanted with goods they paid for, might be one of them.

But of course, as always, he finds a way to defend Sony to the last, this time by making a lot of baseless accusations and babbling "guilty until proven innocent" type garbage.

And with every new thread, he makes it even more abundantly clear, that he's a goddamn shill. It could be announced tomorrow that the Cell processor is crafted from the souls and blood of billions of dead babies, and Siraris would be here, babbling about how they were doing the world a favor by decreasing the surplus population.

He's worse than freaking Kamalot. Even Kam, has, on ever so rare occasion, had nice things to say about the PSP, despite his insane and frothing Sony hate. Sir has no such balance, he's just a PR robot.

I'm curious what accusations are you referring to me lobbing? What is the "fucked up" situation here, that Sony is making a legal stand in regards to one of it's products? Nor did I ever say that Lik Sang was guilty until proven innocent, did I? It's not my fault that they didn't show up in court.

I have no balance against what, saying something negative against Sony? How about the post I made on the PSI-Next forums about the Gamers Day conference last week being a complete and utter letdown and Sony getting on my nerves? How about the fact that I said I felt that the online service, although being there, seemed incomplete, and that I wished Sony would just come out and say it's still coming together, or what's down the pipe as opposed to showing a couple of features for a few seconds and moving on? How about me saying that the $600 price point, although worth it, is too expensive for the mass market? How about I think it's retarded that they aren't including component cables in their HD system? How about the fact that they have literally abandoned the PSP and let it fall into an abyss of absolute shit for games? Care for me to go on?

I don't see things from Sony and see red, like everyone else on this site. I also am able to think with my head in these situations as opposed to my emotions, which is what most of the people saying "FUCK YOU SONY" on this site are doing.

You don't know me J Arcane, you know nothing about me, yet you are making completely baseless insults towards me and my personal views. You say that I am a Sony shill, that I have no view of the other site, that I am biased and blind. What gives you the fucking right, or anyone else on this site, to do that sort of thing unless you know me and are my friend? Do I make personal judgments and accusations about you or who you are? I may call you a troll, but that's on a whole different level.

See, the difference is, I understand that the world is not black or white, I understand that there are grey areas in everything, yet many other people on here, such as you and Kamalot, seem to believe that there is only good and bad in the world, no inbetween. You have absolutely no concept about how business works, what it takes to do things day to day, the idea that SOMETIMES you have to lie, and SOMETIMES you have to do things that go against your principles for what you believe in. Do you honestly believe that the people who fight in wars actually want to go and kill other human beings? Do they really have anything to gain from fighting another country?

Sony does things because it's good for their business, and if they have to piss off some customers, oh well. At the end of the day, they know a HELLUVA lot more about how to do these things than you do, and everyone flailing their arms around and screaming about every single little thing that Sony does needs to realize that. They know that at the end of the day, they need to do what's best for their company so that they can afford to pay the thousands of people who come in every day and work their asses off and believe in their company, so that they can take home a paycheck and live decent lives.

If their decisions rub you the wrong way, too fucking bad. Don't buy their products, stop reading the news about them, and move on with your life. Stop coming in these threads and flaming everything relating to Sony, because nothing that they do could possibly satiate what you are looking for. Stop coming into these threads and insulting people who happen to not be turned off by Sony because they aren't blinded by some sort of deep seeded hatred that you do. You have to have something better to do with your life, and if you don't, I'd suggest finding something.

[BlackPete]

You have absolutely no concept about how business works, what it takes to do things day to day, the idea that SOMETIMES you have to lie, and SOMETIMES you have to do things that go against your principles for what you believe in.

Oh boy... here we go again :rolleyes:

/grabs a bag of popcorn

[J Arcane]

You know why I call you a shill? Because I passed basic fucking reading comprehension. When the same poster, over and over and over again, shows up to defend every last thing a company does, no matter what, what the goddamn hell conclusion am I supposed to draw? Even the Nintendo fanboys don't stoop to the levels that you do, Sir, and it's frankly so bloody obvious that your whole little tirade just looks like the last throes of the desperate.

Let's see, first you attempt to to defend your record by babbling about some post on an entirely other message board that I, and probably a good number of people here, don't even read. Then you go on with the condescending "You don't know what it's like, man!" nonsense towards the middle, and finally cap it off by engaging in the exact kind of labelling you accuse me of, by suggesting I'm some kind of blind Sony hater, despite a posting record to the contrary.

You get called a shill, Siraris, because that's what you are. You may or may not be paid for what you do, but the behavior is the same. Your posts read like press releases from Sony's PR department. You never fail to show up, guns blazing, defending Sony to the last, no mattter what the subject.

Your self-professed amorality is just icing on the cake really, and an unsurprsing revelation from someone who has shown themselves to have no real credibility.

The only real question is whether you're actually being paid for this. You've certainly made it abundantly clear that you have no real appreciation for a sense of honesty, so a little guerilla marketing seems right up your alley here.

[EternalGamer]

No, what he does is actually bring a sense of balance and a different perspective to the "I hate Sony" orgies that everyone around here is so fond of participating in. I don't always agree with him, but at least he offers something different from the mountains of generic bile the majority of the rest of the community posts when it comes to responding to information about Sony. Somebody has to play the skeptic and devils advocate to these tirades, otherwise there is no conversation to even be had.

[J Arcane]

Somebody has to play the skeptic and devils advocate to these tirades, otherwise there is no conversation to even be had.
You know, I've encountered this attitude in numerous places online, and I just don't fucking get it. Seriously, are your social skills that warped that you can't have a conversation without it being an argument?

[Siraris]

You know why I call you a shill? Because I passed basic fucking reading comprehension. When the same poster, over and over and over again, shows up to defend every last thing a company does, no matter what, what the goddamn hell conclusion am I supposed to draw? Even the Nintendo fanboys don't stoop to the levels that you do, Sir, and it's frankly so bloody obvious that your whole little tirade just looks like the last throes of the desperate.

Let's see, first you attempt to to defend your record by babbling about some post on an entirely other message board that I, and probably a good number of people here, don't even read. Then you go on with the condescending "You don't know what it's like, man!" nonsense towards the middle, and finally cap it off by engaging in the exact kind of labelling you accuse me of, by suggesting I'm some kind of blind Sony hater, despite a posting record to the contrary.

You get called a shill, Siraris, because that's what you are. You may or may not be paid for what you do, but the behavior is the same. Your posts read like press releases from Sony's PR department. You never fail to show up, guns blazing, defending Sony to the last, no mattter what the subject.

Your self-professed amorality is just icing on the cake really, and an unsurprsing revelation from someone who has shown themselves to have no real credibility.

The only real question is whether you're actually being paid for this. You've certainly made it abundantly clear that you have no real appreciation for a sense of honesty, so a little guerilla marketing seems right up your alley here.

You seem to think that I take some sort of offense to you calling me a shill. I could give two shits to be honest. If I am a shill, I'm definitely not doing my job very well on this site.

If you don't read Psi-Next forums, that's not my problem, that doesn't make my statement any less valid. Psi-Next is an extremely pro-Sony site, so if I posts there making my problems with Sony apparent, why would that count towards my record? I then go on to say "You don't know what it's like"? What's what like? I said you don't know ME, and you don't. You're basing this entirely off of messages you read on a messageboard. You don't take the time to actually sit down and get to know me and try and understand what I'm saying. You just read what you want to read and assume what you want to assume. That's the majority of the problem with the internet, that you are basing it off excerpts and blurbs of what people are trying to say. I never once said that you were a Sony troll, I was saying to people in general, you included, that if you have such a problem with Sony, you should follow my advice.

As for my morality, you don't know what my morality is. If you think that because I say that things are grey that I have no morals, you seriously need to get your head on straight. I'm sorry if you think that all lying is bad, and that every business is full of good and nice people who would never do anything to disobey the 10 commandments. People have to make fucking hard decisions every day, and sometimes they have to do the wrong thing in order to get the right outcome for what they are fighting for. If you don't like it, get over yourself, you're not that important.

If you need more explanation on this, I'd suggest picking up some philosophy books or perhaps even some business ethics books and stop looking at the world through rosy colored glasses.

[Siraris]

You know, I've encountered this attitude in numerous places online, and I just don't fucking get it. Seriously, are your social skills that warped that you can't have a conversation without it being an argument?

What in the world is the point of posting on a messageboard if every other post is "I agree, I agree, I agree, this is great, I agree". I would never visit a message board again if that's what it was. The whole enjoyment of coming on message boards is seeing differing views and discussing/arguing them.

I can have plenty of conversations where they aren't arguments, but this site perpetuates such anti-Sony hatred that it's impossible for anyone who isn't filled with seething Sony hatred to have a conversation about anything.

As much as I may stand up for Sony, there are 10x the number of people on this site who are tearing Sony down for every little thing. If this wasn't the case, I wouldn't have to be a Sony "shill" and the arguments on this site would be a lot less prevalent.

[shnastybiznastic]

I then go on to say "You don't know what it's like"? What's what like? I said you don't know ME, and you don't. You're basing this entirely off of messages you read on a messageboard.
Well, what does constitute getting to know you? Is it talking? Is it written correspondence? Posting on a messageboard seems to fit within the schema of written correspondence.

The point is, we do know you. We know you by your presentation, which is what we see here. Hell, we should know you better than those with whom you speak on a day to day basis, since we see your complete thoughts before we can respond.

edit: I also believe that since sony filed multiple lawsuits in multiple countries, it's probable that they hoped Lik-Sang would do the profitable (or at least less unprofitable) thing and throw in the towel. This is what rubs me the wrong way.

[Neosho]

I spoke to my father just now on the phone, and although he doesn't know the specifics (since we don't either) and he also doesn't know exactly what the laws are in regards to electronic products, he couldn't make that substantial of a comment. He said that based on his experience (and he deals with importing/exporting from China to all around the world every day) it's not illegal at all to buy a product from a company and sell it in another country unless there is some sort of duty of some kind. He said there also may be some sort of agreement that needs to be signed in order to resell Sony equipment.

But based on what has been said, he feels that there has to be more going on than we know. He said that unless there is some law/duty/agreement against what Lik-Sang was doing, there has to be something else going on, because no judge would have held up a lawsuit in court that had Sony suing Lik-Sang for selling their products overseas - again, unless they were doing so illegally - in which case there is nothing that they could argue in court that would exonerate them from punishment.

Back before the thread went straight to shit...:p

According to the release, sony brought multiple lawsuits against Lik Sang in a variety of different countries, in a variety of different legal systems...why would they do something like that? It seems to make the most sense to bring the judicial system where they are based in, rather than that of EU or some other area.

Furthermore, even if the cases are complete bullshit, sony probably has some degree of "evidence" or "interpritive law violation" in each place, and that takes time and money to fight. The thought that in the modern world, some little guy can show up and be like "but that's not how it is" is absurd, especially when you're dealing with a company as powerful and influential as Sony.

Also, this isn't a dispute over IP rights or some other such thing, it's about "consumer safety", despite the fact that anyone that's bothering to import a console obviously knows that they're importing a console. They're not misrepresenting sony, in fact i'd imagine that many people buying PS3's have no idea who lik sang is, or what they do.

I think the biggest issue that people have here is not sony protecting their regional whatever, it's that they're doing it under false pretenses, and acting like someone else is doing it.

A real solution would be to bring multiple IP lawsuits against them, say that they're attempting to hold them responsible in each of the territories where the laws are being violated. Then lik sang would be good and truely fucked. Since i don't import or even play anything but my DS, i don't really give a fuck if they live or die, there will always be more people or ebay doing something along those lines. But doing things the way they are, under the guise of consumer safety, is a slap in the face to everyone that wants a console bad enough to import it. Just shut them down for the real reasons you want to...profits from region based stuff is not something to scoff at, especially when you're a corp the size of sony. All they have to say is they're protecting their buisness interests, as is their right to do as a company that owns something.

So, sirasis, since you seem to be the only person here to discuss this...what do you say to that? :)

[Siraris]

Well, what does constitute getting to know you? Is it talking? Is it written correspondence? Posting on a messageboard seems to fit within the schema of written correspondence.

The point is, we do know you. We know you by your presentation, which is what we see here. Hell, we should know you better than those with whom you speak on a day to day basis, since we see your complete thoughts before we can respond.

I disagree because I don't think people like J Arcane care for me to elaborate on what I'm saying. If I said to a friend in person that I think something. If someone disagrees, invariably I have to endure some sort of personal attack because 1. I'm talking about Sony and 2. They don't care to hear where I am coming from.

If it was in person, or in a chatroom or something where we could have a back and forth dialogue, it could be:

Someone: "Well Siraris, why do you feel this way?"
Me: "Well xyzabc123"
Someone: "Ok well why do you feel this way about X?"
Me: "Because of such and such".
Someone: "Well have you ever thought about ..."
Me: "No, I haven't, that's a good point"

That wouldn't happen on here, in particular because Sony threads garner such hatred from many people on this site. It's next to impossible to have any sort of rational conversation without it breaking down at the seams.

I can count only a couple times where things have played out calmly and rationally. In one instance, I made a statement towards someone, they private messaged me, we went back and forth, realized we both had a lot in common and agreed on most of what we were talking about, and now are friends online and talk pretty often. That is a very rare situation on this site.

[Savok]

You know, I've encountered this attitude in numerous places online, and I just don't fucking get it. Seriously, are your social skills that warped that you can't have a conversation without it being an argument?
It's Dan Dan, so yes.

Also people will stop the bile once Sony does something that isn't bile worthy. There's good talked about stuff on the horizon, if it does what they say, happiness for everyone.

And Sirius, Sony has been doing this for years in Australia and New Zealand, they cripple companies with legal costs, it's their god damn MO.

[Siraris]

Back before the thread went straight to shit...:p

According to the release, sony brought multiple lawsuits against Lik Sang in a variety of different countries, in a variety of different legal systems...why would they do something like that? It seems to make the most sense to bring the judicial system where they are based in, rather than that of EU or some other area.

Furthermore, even if the cases are complete bullshit, sony probably has some degree of "evidence" or "interpritive law violation" in each place, and that takes time and money to fight. The thought that in the modern world, some little guy can show up and be like "but that's not how it is" is absurd, especially when you're dealing with a company as powerful and influential as Sony.

Also, this isn't a dispute over IP rights or some other such thing, it's about "consumer safety", despite the fact that anyone that's bothering to import a console obviously knows that they're importing a console. They're not misrepresenting sony, in fact i'd imagine that many people buying PS3's have no idea who lik sang is, or what they do.

I think the biggest issue that people have here is not sony protecting their regional whatever, it's that they're doing it under false pretenses, and acting like someone else is doing it.

A real solution would be to bring multiple IP lawsuits against them, say that they're attempting to hold them responsible in each of the territories where the laws are being violated. Then lik sang would be good and truely fucked. Since i don't import or even play anything but my DS, i don't really give a fuck if they live or die, there will always be more people or ebay doing something along those lines. But doing things the way they are, under the guise of consumer safety, is a slap in the face to everyone that wants a console bad enough to import it. Just shut them down for the real reasons you want to...profits from region based stuff is not something to scoff at, especially when you're a corp the size of sony. All they have to say is they're protecting their buisness interests, as is their right to do as a company that owns something.

So, sirasis, since you seem to be the only person here to discuss this...what do you say to that? :)

I honestly feel like we don't know enough. I'm curious to know if Sony has a stipulation that you need to sign an agreement in order to sell their goods in quantity? I mean obviously they aren't going to sue someone for selling their used PS2 on ebay, or even a brand new PS3 on ebay, but selling products in quantity could be against their copyright. Perhaps in their copyright there is a stipulation that you need to sign an agreement with Sony in order to sell their product, or to sell it to other countries to avoid any problems? I don't really know.

From what I found online, though, is that this lawsuit was brought about only in Hong Kong back in August 2005. Only recently did they start suing them in other territories when they didn't listen to Sony's request. Had they listened initially and ceased selling PSP's to the UK from Hong Kong, there wouldn't be an issue. They would be dense to not think that Sony would use legal means against them, so everything that happened over the past few days or even weeks they had to have been expecting. I don't understand why they wouldn't just stop selling if that was the issue? From one article I read, it seems that Sony was selling for copyright infringement and that Lik-Sang made the PSP manuals available online, which is against their copyright.

I'm thinking of calling NCSX tomorrow and asking what they know about the situation and if they are at risk. It would definitely clear things up as opposed to us taking shots in the dark. And I appreciate you wanting to have an actual discussion, you bring up some good points :) Maybe at this point they decided to make it about consumer safety and it was about copyright infringement before? Maybe they are doing anything possible to be careful in wake of being burned (literally and figuratively) by the battery recall? I have no clue.

I just don't think that you can go into a court and file a lawsuit about one company selling your product unless you have some sort of legal document requiring them to follow certain procedures for selling your product, and if they have that, Lik-Sang probably violated that agreement, or else the judge wouldn't have ruled in Sony's favor, or have "found that various intellectual property rights belonging to Sony had been infringed by Pacific Game Technology, which also trades under the Chinese name "Lik-Sang"."

[Neosho]

I honestly feel like we don't know enough. I'm curious to know if Sony has a stipulation that you need to sign an agreement in order to sell their goods in quantity? I mean obviously they aren't going to sue someone for selling their used PS2 on ebay, or even a brand new PS3 on ebay, but selling products in quantity could be against their copyright. Perhaps in their copyright there is a stipulation that you need to sign an agreement with Sony in order to sell their product, or to sell it to other countries to avoid any problems? I don't really know.

In utter agreement here. It seems like there's not enough information going around. Anyone who has any links or anything that could come up would be much appreciated to shed some light on the issue.

From what I found online, though, is that this lawsuit was brought about only in Hong Kong back in August 2005. Only recently did they start suing them in other territories when they didn't listen to Sony's request. Had they listened initially and ceased selling PSP's to the UK from Hong Kong, there wouldn't be an issue. They would be dense to not think that Sony would use legal means against them, so everything that happened over the past few days or even weeks they had to have been expecting. I don't understand why they wouldn't just stop selling if that was the issue? From one article I read, it seems that Sony was selling for copyright infringement and that Lik-Sang made the PSP manuals available online, which is against their copyright.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't a suit have to go through before they stop selling PSP's/Manusls, baring some sort of injunction? Furthermore, I was under the impression that those manuals were availble to people who bought the actual game, so Lik Sang wasn't distributing them to people who were using them to profit, but was instead providing a sort of translation service for PSP owners. As i don't know enough about this, i'll leave it at that, but it seems somewhat absurd to start leveling multiple suits across the globe for simply distributing the instructions to your product.


I'm thinking of calling NCSX tomorrow and asking what they know about the situation and if they are at risk. It would definitely clear things up as opposed to us taking shots in the dark. And I appreciate you wanting to have an actual discussion, you bring up some good points :) Maybe at this point they decided to make it about consumer safety and it was about copyright infringement before? Maybe they are doing anything possible to be careful in wake of being burned (literally and figuratively) by the battery recall? I have no clue.

I'd appreciate that, your time spent talking to your father about it really opened up the discussion a bit more for me, and got me to comment on it here. It makes slightly more sense than their current actions if it's in the wake of the battery fiasco, but still...the entire thing seems a bit too overt, especially given the fact that they issues a sort of triumphant press release over the fact that lik sang is shut down. Seems to be a bit of the old, but new, 21rst century vigilante justice..."can't get em legally, so we'll shut them down however we have to!" sort of thing.

I just don't think that you can go into a court and file a lawsuit about one company selling your product unless you have some sort of legal document requiring them to follow certain procedures for selling your product, and if they have that, Lik-Sang probably violated that agreement, or else the judge wouldn't have ruled in Sony's favor, or have "found that various intellectual property rights belonging to Sony had been infringed by Pacific Game Technology, which also trades under the Chinese name "Lik-Sang"."

If so, then why are all of these suits being filed under the guise of "protecting the consumer", rather than in violation of the EULA/whathaveyou of the PSP? It would make a LOT more sense if there was a legal agreement that they were violating, and that would be much more potent in a court than what appears to be bullshit about "consumer safety".

No matter how you slice it, though...this entire thing is simply another blow to sony's rep. They seem to be attempting to stab early adopters as hard and fast as they can. Maybe they're bitter because they're seeing PS3's go for money on ebay, and they can't get a part of that...who knows?

Either way, anyone out there have more info on all this?

[BlackPete]

I'm curious to know if Sony has a stipulation that you need to sign an agreement in order to sell their goods in quantity?

This is the first thing I would look for. Did Sony and Lik-Sang have a contract? If so, then Lik-Sang may truly be fucked. If not, then Sony has ZERO ground to state their case.

but selling products in quantity could be against their copyright. Perhaps in their copyright there is a stipulation that you need to sign an agreement with Sony in order to sell their product, or to sell it to other countries to avoid any problems? I don't really know.

I really think you meant to say "contract", not "copyright" here... it's gotta be the most misunderstood term ever (along with trademark) and I see people making mistakes with it all the damn time (even in news articles where they should've known better). Anyway I can't think of a way where you could possibly violate a "copyright" by selling PS3s. Even a trademark doesn't apply here -- violating a trademark would mean Lik-Sang was selling vacuum bags with the name "Playstation 3" stamped all over the bags. Since they were actually selling PS3s and not some other imitations, I don't see how trademark fits here either.

Only recently did they start suing them in other territories when they didn't listen to Sony's request. Had they listened initially and ceased selling PSP's to the UK from Hong Kong, there wouldn't be an issue. They would be dense to not think that Sony would use legal means against them, so everything that happened over the past few days or even weeks they had to have been expecting. I don't understand why they wouldn't just stop selling if that was the issue?

Because people file false lawsuits all the time hoping to extort money from the defendants without having to go to trial. The RIAA is a prime example of this -- they sue thousands of people and so far the people simply settle out of court because they can't afford the legal fees of a trial (regardless of whether they're innocent or not). So basically if you get sued, and you're sure it's a bogus claim, then you can fight it out in court while continuing business as usual. Only an injunction can actually stop you from continuing business -- something I haven't seen any mention of in regards to Lik-Sang.

From one article I read, it seems that Sony was selling for copyright infringement and that Lik-Sang made the PSP manuals available online, which is against their copyright.

If that was the case, that's a valid claim and Lik-Sang should've taken down the manuals ASAP.

Maybe at this point they decided to make it about consumer safety and it was about copyright infringement before? Maybe they are doing anything possible to be careful in wake of being burned (literally and figuratively) by the battery recall? I have no clue.

That's the part I call bullshit on Sony about. Yes, it's possible they're being extra cautious due to the battery fiasco, but I'd sooner believe my pet fish (and I don't even have one) than I'd believe that excuse. I mean, it's the perfect PR spin: Make it about consumer safety!

Problem is: This is the PSP we're talking about here. I haven't heard of any exploding PSPs lately. Have you?

I just don't think that you can go into a court and file a lawsuit about one company selling your product unless you have some sort of legal document requiring them to follow certain procedures for selling your product,

It's not a perfect analogy but you can indeed file a bullshit lawsuit against someone and hope to get away with it. See SCO vs. IBM for what's possibly the biggest farce of the century -- SCO files suit claiming IP infringements, illegal product sales, etc, etc. Except SCO hasn't produced one single piece of evidence "because they're protected by trade secret laws" (i.e. pure bullshit). Yet IBM is forced to fight the case or they lose. All without a single shred of evidence!

Whether the same thing happened with Sony and Lik-Sang or not, I don't know. I'm hoping more information will come out -- did they have a contract? What kind of evidence did Sony have? Or was it all just bullshit claims?

For now, I'm extremely suspicious of Sony until more info will come out.

[Siraris]

I'd appreciate that, your time spent talking to your father about it really opened up the discussion a bit more for me, and got me to comment on it here. It makes slightly more sense than their current actions if it's in the wake of the battery fiasco, but still...the entire thing seems a bit too overt, especially given the fact that they issues a sort of triumphant press release over the fact that lik sang is shut down. Seems to be a bit of the old, but new, 21rst century vigilante justice..."can't get em legally, so we'll shut them down however we have to!" sort of thing.

If so, then why are all of these suits being filed under the guise of "protecting the consumer", rather than in violation of the EULA/whathaveyou of the PSP? It would make a LOT more sense if there was a legal agreement that they were violating, and that would be much more potent in a court than what appears to be bullshit about "consumer safety".

No matter how you slice it, though...this entire thing is simply another blow to sony's rep. They seem to be attempting to stab early adopters as hard and fast as they can. Maybe they're bitter because they're seeing PS3's go for money on ebay, and they can't get a part of that...who knows?

Either way, anyone out there have more info on all this?

I'm as confused as you, I'm just not going to jump to the conclusion that Sony filed Lawsuits across the globe with Lik-Sang because they are trying to shut them down just because it's Sony, which is why I argued against the majority here. At the end of the day, if that is the case, that's messed up. I mean Lik-Sang definitely isn't the poster child for honest business, and I never do business with them, but to go around shutting down companies that can't defend themselves, that's ridiculous.

I still just feel like there has to be more going on here than we know. First of all, Lik-Sang had no problem fighting Nintendo and Microsoft and Sony in the past, why do they just buckle now? Was it because Nintendo MS and Sony only filed suits in Hong Kong? Second of all, if Sony was filing a lawsuit that was filed on baseless claims, couldn't Lik-Sang counter-sue with the high probability of making a ton of money? I mean I would assume a judge would award them a fat check if Sony was intentionally trying to shut them down if in fact they were violating a law or copyright.

My feeling is, Lik-Sang violated something, law or otherwise, regarding the selling of Playstation products. Sony, whether in the interest of their copyright or just to get rid of an annoyance, decided to sue Lik-Sang. We don't know if Sony contacted Lik-Sang prior asking them to change their practices (I assume they did to make things kosher in case of having to goto court), and if they did, that means that Lik-Sang purposely ignored them and went about violating whatever the issue was. Sony then decided to take them to court in HK back in 2005, and I assume subsequently filed in the EU when Lik-Sang did nothing about it.

If this is how it played out, it's squarely Lik-Sangs fault as they obviously chose to ignore Sony and give them a reason to be able to file a lawsuit. I highly doubt that one day they received a letter that they were being sued and said "Oh noes! What is this possibly for? It's the big bad Sony trying to put us out of business, what did we do?!". They chose not to be responsible, and they got bit in the ass. It's like the kid who gets in trouble at school, and then continues to do what the principle specifically told them not to do, and expect to not get in trouble.

[Neosho]

Arg, if i wasn't so tired i'd type up a response to both of you, but i am, so you'll have to wait. We've had a sudden change in the mood of the thread though, so in the interestestststs of it's original conception....SONY SUCKS! :p

[Siraris]

I agree Pete, I don't get it. The big thing for me is what does Sony have to gain here? The thing that's always baffled me with region encoding is that it prevents people from buying companies products. If I want to buy an anime from Japan, I can't play it here, and if I do I'm doing something illegal? I'm not stealing it, so what's the big deal? Same goes for here; why would Sony care if Lik-Sang was sending PSP's to Europe? Sony is still making money because Lik-Sang is buying them from them, and these people will then buy games and other accessories. It's not like any system goes through a major revision between Japan and Europe, or the US and Europe etc. So why would that matter? The PSP also is a region free device. Sony has never made an issue with another company that I'm aware of, why Lik-Sang? Why didn't Lik-Sang even bother going to court in HK? Why didn't they just do what Sony was asking so Sony had no grounds for the suit? I mean how much money could they possibly make from selling PSP's to Europe?

There's so many questions here, it makes no sense, but I just find it hard to believe that a court would agree to uphold the lawsuit on purely baseless claims on something like selling products from one country to another (which is not illegal stipulation from the manufacturer).

Oh, and Savok, do you have any examples of Sony putting companies in NZ and Australia out of business with complicated legal battles? I asked a friend from NZ and AU and they both said they had never heard of what you said. I'm curious to see what you are talking about.

[Siraris]

Arg, if i wasn't so tired i'd type up a response to both of you, but i am, so you'll have to wait. We've had a sudden change in the mood of the thread though, so in the interestestststs of it's original conception....SONY SUCKS! :p

Yea I HAVE to goto bed too. But I appreciate you getting things back on track, and I appreciate your contribution to the discussion as it's interesting to hear an honest well thought out intelligent response. It shows that you can have an argument/discussion about something and have it be interesting and not full of hatred and insults!

[golden_balls]

if they were ordering psp's for investigatory purposes why use the names of sony execs. the excuse is laughable . we all knew the risks when using lik sang. this isnt really an issue for the japan or the north american market. as were the last region to recieve sony products its another sony hit to the european gonads.

I hope there is a backlash and sony regrets there actions . while i can understand sonys stance on mod chips etc why stop people buying products which arent available in that region. we accept the consequences or should do.


its just another nail in sonys coffin in my opinion

[JimmyDanger]

The big thing for me is what does Sony have to gain here? The thing that's always baffled me with region encoding is that it prevents people from buying companies products. If I want to buy an anime from Japan, I can't play it here, and if I do I'm doing something illegal? I'm not stealing it, so what's the big deal? Same goes for here; why would Sony care if Lik-Sang was sending PSP's to Europe? Sony is still making money because Lik-Sang is buying them from them, and these people will then buy games and other accessories.




Sir - now I understand. You haven't got the point of this whole thread.
This is no Sony hate thread. This is the first time a company has successfully closed a large import specialist, not for offering mods, or hacks - or IP threatening software/hardware. This is a legitimate threat to the whole import market. The fact that Sony were the first company to do this is incidental in some ways, but I haven't seen any other companies adopting this stance - or even filing lawsuits against legitimate importers/exporters.

Firstly - Do you understand the concept of how Sony, MS and Nintendo make money from scheduling zoned releases? Why the suit was filed for "consumer safety" reasons rather than trade reasons (which frankly - the reasons those initial cases never came to court was because they were weak as piss). Importing an anime or movie is not the same. When a localised company - say
madman dvd from Australia, license an anime for Australian release - they buy the rights to produce and distribute that anime (and whatever extras/episodes they paid for/created - often they don't own the whole IP - DBZ is a good example - underpants to action figures from a dozen suppliers in 10000 supermarkets) in Australia. If a retailer they sell to decides to export some copies - that's legal. If the wholesaler (madman dvd in this case) - starts exporting directly to foreign retailers - then they are in breach of their license agreement.

But hang on Sony have Sony Europe - Sony USA - Sony Japan - legally all entities of the same company with distribution rights in all their respective regions. If Lik-Sang in Japan buys a hardware unit wholesale from Sony Japan - they're perfectly within their rights to sell to a consumer in the UK or even the US. This isn't multilayered distribution of an IP licensed to separate companies around the world for distribution. It's a piece of hardware distributed worldwide by the same entity.

Hang on a minute again. Especially with the price of the PS3 dropped in JAPAN only. By the rules of trade in a free market world economy (or what your dad said) - LikSang have every right as a company to buy through the Japanese market and resell internationally - large software dealers like Gamestop/EB have done this for years - especially in the Australian PAL region. And it's perfectly legal. As a customer - I can say LikSang have always been perfectly clear as to the non -warranties and specific power requirements of relevant consoles on their site. Each product had a goddamn FAQ section (like ol Amazon), where customers could discuss the merits/bad points about software/hardware/3rdparty accessories - which saved me from a few bad purchases.

The fact that Sony used the "consumer safety" BS that they did - and filed suit in a UK court - who find this civil case more in the public interest to set a trialdate soon - the costs of defending such a case isn't cheap - think of the cost for 2 or maybe 3 representatives of LikSang to fly and stay in the UK, QC's, barristers and solicitors (upwards of 2000 pounds a day), a company like LikSang (no they're not EB/Gamestop or some huge distro with cash to burn - in this case at least 100,000 and more like half a million dollars if the case was to go on 2 or more months, as is common in civil suits - effectively shuts them down.

Lik-Sang - while not the only - were certainly, along with PlayAsia - one of the biggest import sites - and this scalp, if it means protecting sales margins and keeping US/UK retailers happy with the enforced pricing points in each region (we pay equivalent of 1.5 times more in currency conversion for games here in Aus - notice how many posters in this thread are from the Southern hemisphere and UK, and shops like these have kept us content with their access to games like Shonen Jump Superstars that'll never be available in our regions (funny - I could tie that back to the anime license thing, but surely by now you can figure it out yourself), but everyone is legally entitled to import or purchase. With this scalp, companies like PlayAsia and the like aren't safe. And Sony could file the same suit against any of these companies. I'm sure even MS and Nintendo could, and there's money to be made. Hell - a BlueDragon 360pack is looking pretty sweet for the price. But Sony setting the precedent by filing this suit bodes poorly for the future.

I doubt you even read this post Sir, and have another "JimmyDanger is a Sony hater.LikSang are shady. Sony FTW. My dad said" rant for us all. But seriously - if you can't admit that this is a nasty practice from Sony that threatens all legitimate console/software importers/exporters then I give up.

[shnastybiznastic]

If it was in person, or in a chatroom or something where we could have a back and forth dialogue, it could be:
<insert reasonable dialouge here>
This makes me doubt that you get out/on IRC much. The way it usually goes is:

You: Get halfway done making a point
Someone: Interrupt and nitpick about some little bit that they do't understand because they didn't wait for youto get done.
You: Explain little tidbit.
Someone: Counterpoint to little tidbit explanation.
You: Addendum to tidbit explanation nullifying counterpoint.
Someone: Questioning of veracity of logic used to come up with tidbit.

etc...

Messageboards actually allow for more coherent discussion than in person debates or chatrooms. The format of a messageboard removes any ability of the reader to simply interrupt and demand an explanation. This is part of the reason that televised debates and major government functions follow a strict policy of one person speaking at once. It's just too easy to complicate the issue in question to the point of the listener loosing intrest.

Me: "No, I haven't, that's a good point"

That wouldn't happen on here,
Heh, I sure don't remember that line ever happening ;) (nothing personal, just have to take em' when I see em')

Also: 800 posts!

[Oskin]

Thats a sad news... I really don't understand Sony! They used to be in my opinion the best company for consumer electronics but now I just can't hear the name. Seriously, is anyone here planning on bying a Sony product? I sure don't... I'm sorry but thats just too much for me

[shnastybiznastic]

It's not a perfect analogy but you can indeed file a bullshit lawsuit against someone and hope to get away with it. See SCO vs. IBM for what's possibly the biggest farce of the century -- SCO files suit claiming IP infringements, illegal product sales, etc, etc. Except SCO hasn't produced one single piece of evidence "because they're protected by trade secret laws" (i.e. pure bullshit). Yet IBM is forced to fight the case or they lose. All without a single shred of evidence!It's worth noting that IBM's code (for the purposes of creator's rights only) is GPLed and part of the linux kernel. SCO v. IBM is a very pertanant example because it deals directly with redistribution rights, and contains quite a few of the clever legal tactics used by Sony against Lik-Sang.

[Supreme_Cheatsurfer]

Damn you Sony, and may god have mercy on your souls.

[J Arcane]

I doubt you even read this post Sir, and have another "JimmyDanger is a Sony hater.LikSang are shady. Sony FTW. My dad said" rant for us all. But seriously - if you can't admit that this is a nasty practice from Sony that threatens all legitimate console/software importers/exporters then I give up.

He won't, but I thank you for your post anyway. It's the absolute best summary of the problem I've seen in this whole thread.

[Neosho]

Stuff


Jimmy, thanks for posting that.

I just have one question....Lik Sang has fought against Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo in the past. While i'm sure those trials were not cheap, they went to trial there. Here, they didn't show at all...While sony's tactics seem underhanded, (I only say seem because of the lack of information about the new trials), it's odd to say the least that Lik Sang isn't fighting the new ones, especially considering that this seems to be a case that they'd have an easy time winning.

[J Arcane]

Jimmy, thanks for posting that.

I just have one question....Lik Sang has fought against Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo in the past. While i'm sure those trials were not cheap, they went to trial there. Here, they didn't show at all...While sony's tactics seem underhanded, (I only say seem because of the lack of information about the new trials), it's odd to say the least that Lik Sang isn't fighting the new ones, especially considering that this seems to be a case that they'd have an easy time winning.
Because their previous trial was actually in Hong Kong. (http://www.zeropaid.com/news/1905/Sony,+Nintendo+and+Microsoft+vs.+Lik+Sang%20Sony,% 20Nintendo%20and%20Microsoft%20vs.%20Lik%20Sang)

Wee bit easier to go down the street than it is to go to the opposite end of the world, don't you think?

[gzsfrk]

Anyone remember Bleem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleemcast!)?

Yep... I actually made this point back on the first page of this post. But thanks for bringing it back up so that the point gets some more attention. :)

[Siraris]

I doubt you even read this post Sir, and have another "JimmyDanger is a Sony hater.LikSang are shady. Sony FTW. My dad said" rant for us all. But seriously - if you can't admit that this is a nasty practice from Sony that threatens all legitimate console/software importers/exporters then I give up.

What a way to make a wonderful post and then completely turn me off at the same time. Why in the world would you write something like that and then try and throw it in my face that I wouldn't read it? It's incredible the immaturity that some people show on this site.

Oh and by the way, I only call people Sony haters who are Sony haters. Why would I call someone a Sony hater who isn't one? Lik Sang HAS been shady for years now, and I thought that asking someone who deals with importing and exporting from China and Hong Kong EVERY SINGLE DAY would contribute a lot more to this thread than the immature insults and flames that have populated it since it was posted. I guess that makes me a Sony shill, huh?

[Goronmon]

What a way to make a wonderful post and then completely turn me off at the same time.He was just including a taste of what usually permeates throughout most of your SDF posts.

[Siraris]

He was just including a taste of what usually permeates throughout most of your SDF posts.

What an excellent contribution to the thread, and from someone who wasn't even involved in this discussion as well. Have you become Jimmy's proxy?

I just don't understand how making an extremely well thoughout post and then telling me that I won't read it and telling me how I am a Sony shill furthers his position. Why even write the post in the first place if I wasn't going to read it, and if I did, why write the post just to try and throw it in my face?

[Neosho]

Siraris, honestly, i'd just let the last paragraph go...part of playing discussion on the interweb is ignoring the attacks or just walking away.

Either way, i find it somewhat absurd that a company such as Lik Sang would be entirely unable to at least make enough of a token force over there, in the days of the internet and such, in order to at least contest it.

However, it also remains to see if it was a single additional lawsuit, or lawsuits, or who god knows what...we're dealing with such insufficient evidence here it's not even funny.

[Siraris]

Siraris, honestly, i'd just let the last paragraph go...part of playing discussion on the interweb is ignoring the attacks or just walking away.

Either way, i find it somewhat absurd that a company such as Lik Sang would be entirely unable to at least make enough of a token force over there, in the days of the internet and such, in order to at least contest it.

However, it also remains to see if it was a single additional lawsuit, or lawsuits, or who god knows what...we're dealing with such insufficient evidence here it's not even funny.

I just receieved this:

Hi Andrew, thanks for your email. We don’t know the actual events and details about why Sony went after Lik-Sang but the action appears to be limited only to Lik-Sang for their trading activities to customers in Europe. We have associates in Hong Kong who received cease and desist letters from Sony last year and they complied with Sony’s requests to stop exporting PSPs to Europe. It appears that Lik-Sang ignored the cease and desist request from Sony which may have led to the lawsuit.


Regards,
NCSX, Inc


I'm going to write back and try to clarify the legalities.

[BlackPete]

Hi Andrew, thanks for your email. We don’t know the actual events and details about why Sony went after Lik-Sang but the action appears to be limited only to Lik-Sang for their trading activities to customers in Europe. We have associates in Hong Kong who received cease and desist letters from Sony last year and they complied with Sony’s requests to stop exporting PSPs to Europe. It appears that Lik-Sang ignored the cease and desist request from Sony which may have led to the lawsuit.

So if I read that correctly, it's solely an export issue.

C&D letters are basically toilet paper -- you either take it seriously or you don't. It takes an injunction before you're FORCED to stop. This is the part that gets me about this whole deal -- you cannot get an injunction unless the judge agrees that exporting to Europe violates some kind of a law (or that it broke a contract agreement with Sony).

If this is the case, then this is an extremely dangerous precedent -- I cannot stress that enough.

[Siraris]

So if I read that correctly, it's solely an export issue.

C&D letters are basically toilet paper -- you either take it seriously or you don't. It takes an injunction before you're FORCED to stop. This is the part that gets me about this whole deal -- you cannot get an injunction unless the judge agrees that exporting to Europe violates some kind of a law (or that it broke a contract agreement with Sony).

If this is the case, then this is an extremely dangerous precedent -- I cannot stress that enough.

Well the ruling said that they violated something.

The point is, Lik-Sang was ASKED to stop and they didn't. Now where are they? They had to have known Sony would take legal action, they'd done it before. If they really are out of business (which I still believe is temporary to garner support) it's their own fault. Again, how much could their PSP business be doing? PSP hasn't had a decent game come out since..... uhh... hm. Lumines?

We'll have to see Pete, but I think in this case it's a matter of having to wait. Maybe Sony just cares about hardware, and not software, I mean the head of PS3/PSP development confirmed today that PS3 was region free, even stating that " "However, PlayStation 3 game software does not have this region code. In other words, if you can get your hands on overseas software, you can play as is.".

*Edit* Hopefully that "if" doesn't actually mean "GOOD LUCK MWAHAHAHAHHAHA HAH HAHAHAH HAHAH!"

[Kamalot]

PSP hasn't had a decent game come out since..... uhh... hm. Lumines?
Can I quote you on that?

Whoops!

I just did!

[Siraris]

Can I quote you on that?

Whoops!

I just did!

That was funnie :D

[Supreme_Cheatsurfer]

Ghandi 2.0 once said: "Fighting with your keyboard is like playing in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, your still retarded."

Think about it, eh?

[brokenFUN]

Too bad they went AFK. They would have been a good source for DS3.

[Spigot]

Wow. Your necromantic powers are beyond imagining! We're talking about almost 13 months after death here.

[Crowe]

Holy Thread Revival!!!!!

Was a good a fun read though, it was funny to see the usual fan boys stirring it up.

Then I realised this was indeed over a year old, man some Fan Boys really do never change.

[Johan]

This is what I got when I Google-imaged "rise from your grave:"

http://www.steveswink.com/fonz.jpg

Aaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy!!!!!!

[JimmyDanger]

Wow.

I'm glad this made the server move...

Ancient history now. I wonder if Lik Sang was exporting PS3's, how many more would have been sold worldwide by now?

I certainly would have fancied a crack at an import one rather than the broken nonBC ones they sell down here..

[Sl1pstream]

Can we ban people for necro-posting?

[Skyelan]

I mean, once I could kind of sorta maybe understand as a mistake... But TWICE? So close together? Is he INSANE?

[fitbabits]

Too bad they went AFK. They would have been a good source for DS3.

Holy... This is now 2007, not 2006. There's a whole world ahead of you if you'd just open your eyes!

[NoName]

Ah Lik-Sang, what a great place you were.

This isn't thread necro, it's a one year remembrance :D.