Lumines Live! Pricing Damage Control

[bapenguin]

1Up (http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3154569) reports that Microsoft is doing some damage control on the absurd and expensive pricing of Lumines Live. Microsoft really touted the inclusion of music videos when unveiling Lumines Live at E3, but they're nowhere to be found here. Instead, you must purchase the "Artist Pack," coming in early 2007! Not only are gamers forced to wait for one of the hyped distinctions between this and the handheld versions, but it'll cost you, too. Oh, and there's Puzzle/Mission (with 50 additions for each mode) and the inevitable VS CPU mode, featuring 11 opponents and skins.

They point to a bit of running commentary (http://gamerscoreblog.com/team/archive/2006/10/19/538076.aspx) on the Gamerscore Blog.

I think this game is a case of a retail game available online that should have been allowed outside the rules of XBLA. In the IGN (http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/740/740214p1.html) interview, Tetsuya Mizuguchi mentions the trouble they had fitting the base game inside the 50MB limit of Live Arcade. To get around this they had to split off all the features and sell them separately. Of course, the answer to this would be to charge $5 for the base and $5 or less for each expansion pack.

[Norse]

I don't think the price has anything to do with size. The developers may try to blame the size restriction, but they could have made the additional content free.

The 50MB limitation has to go. I suggest 250MB.

[Borys]

Say No To Microrapements.

[crashedout]

I don't care about the difference between a retail game and an arcade game. All I know is you don't get very much for your price. I like XBLA for downloading full games, not pieces of games.

[Morangie]

Say No To Microrapements.
Why not just say Say No To Paying For Things?

[mkelehan]

Or maybe it's a $40 game that you're getting for less than $30 with ALL the enhancements, which brings it to significantly more than the PSP version. You could look at it that way.

And yeah, the 50MB limit is stupid. If a developer wants to make a game too big for Core users to have and thus cut their potential market, I say let them. It should be their choice. Once the 256MB card comes out, I can see a more reasonable limit, say 240MB.

[Reanimated]

I don't care about the difference between a retail game and an arcade game. All I know is you don't get very much for your price. I like XBLA for downloading full games, not pieces of games.




In actual fact, there's more content in the base pack + advance pack for 23 dollars than there was in Lumines 1 on PSP for 30 dollars.

People need to cut the fucking crying about this game. You all have some retarded fucking mental block about how downloadable games should be priced. If this game had shipped on a disc, nobody would be doing all this bellyaching.

[NightRain]

Yeah I paid $50 CDN for Lumines when the PSP first launched I don't think 1200 points plus 600 points is really outragous. Would I like to pay less? Yes I would! Do I have a choice if I want to play the game? No I don't. I still have the choice of not buying it and not playing it, if I want to play I have to pay it is that simple.

I don't really enjoy paying $69 CDN for most Xbox 360 games either but that is the going rate becuase customers pay for it. If no one, an dI mean no one bought Lumines on Live the price would have to go down, since people buy it they will stick to the price.

That being said the recent best buy promo in Canada was awesome, $59 for Splinter Cell and get 12 months of live for free, plus get COD2 for $9.99. $70 for 2 games and 12 months of Live, I'm happy about that.

[Heretic Machine]

Too expensive for me. They are welcome to price it at whatever they want, but I don't see Lumines as being worth any more money than Geometry Wars, Cloning Clyde, or Marble Blast Ultra. That means they don't get my money.

It was overpriced on the PSP too.

[Adam Blue]

Dudes...like it has been said, yuo're still getting the game for what it's worth. It might be micropayments, but you can schoose what you want to buy and not want to buy.

Blowing this way out of proportion.

And Bory's, this is as if some of CoD2 was on XBLA for $30, and for $5, the pieces of the game were put up until it reached $60. No one's getting raped here except for you, you seem misinformed or just plain troubled.

[EternalGamer]

This packs are a clear example of milking extra money out of the player. It is not as if this is extra content they are providing later to improve the gameplay experience in a substantial way. They cut out modes with the intention of selling them to you later, modes that were already present in the previous version of the game.

I'm not buying the size limit as the problem. Lumines is a puzzle game with a few differet colored blocks, backgrounds and some music. How the hell could it take up more space than something like that Marble game with it's high res bump mapped textures, or even Street Fighter 2 with it's animations? And even if it did take up a lot of room, would adding the ability to play against the CPU more than 1 level take up more room? Or throwing more than four or five puzzle levels in the game add significantly to the size? And even if it did take up that much space, as others have pointed out, the base pack could have been cheaper and/or add on packs could have been free or cheaper.

[wyeast]

If this game had shipped on a disc, nobody would be doing all this bellyaching.
If it had shipped on a disc, there'd be no question of how much the game was, or that you were getting the whole game intact for that price.

The problem I have with it now is the way it's broken up and presented as a "Full Game" with "Bonus packs" when it's obvious that you're being given a teaser (really, a glorified demo) with additional packs needed to get the missing parts of the game.

Charge the $30. I don't care. But don't be deceptive about it. Don't make it obvious you took the whole game you developed and said "oh, let's break this off and charge them more for it" That just leaves us with the feeling we just bought a car, but oh... we can purchase the "deluxe touring package" which includes... the two rear wheels, a headlight, and the roof.

[HerrLogi]

yeah i like lumines but i dident like the way of paying 1200 and then figuring out there are parts just not available ...

[GodFather]

money talks, you dont like what they're doing dont buy it. If ya buy it, you will see more.

[menage]

This packs are a clear example of milking extra money out of the player

No they are not, it's a full price game to begin with. Just broken up into smaller segments. I personally do like the idea. I don't give a fuck about puzzle or mission mode. I'll play those one time and then never touch it again. So if I can scrape off 5 dollars not to include that's even better.

I do think however that they should have made it much more clear about what you are getting for your money. I' did feel a little bummed when I discoverd it worked this way.

Then I started thinking about it and I concluded that 1200 point s for a full Lumiknes was reallt cheap to begin with (aka not realistic). I just wish they made it more clear from the get go.

[bapenguin]

Say No To Microrapements.

There is no Micropayments in this game. Micro is like $1. $7.50 and $15.00 is NOT a Micropayment.

[bapenguin]

This packs are a clear example of milking extra money out of the player. It is not as if this is extra content they are providing later to improve the gameplay experience in a substantial way. They cut out modes with the intention of selling them to you later, modes that were already present in the previous version of the game.

I'm not buying the size limit as the problem. Lumines is a puzzle game with a few differet colored blocks, backgrounds and some music. How the hell could it take up more space than something like that Marble game with it's high res bump mapped textures, or even Street Fighter 2 with it's animations? And even if it did take up a lot of room, would adding the ability to play against the CPU more than 1 level take up more room? Or throwing more than four or five puzzle levels in the game add significantly to the size? And even if it did take up that much space, as others have pointed out, the base pack could have been cheaper and/or add on packs could have been free or cheaper.

Look at the size of it...it's 50MB already. Actually more.

[RestlessAvenger]

Do we really have to drag this out in a third thread. Lumines Live is a full retail game, distributed over Live. For your 15 bucks you get the Base Lumines pack, with your Base Skins and Multiplayer. You get to try the other modes as well. If you like the modes, you can buy them, if you don't you can skip them and the game is cheaper for you.
It really is just a test for another form of digital distibution, one in which you the gamer get to decide what part of the game is worth playing for you. Nobody lied or mislead anyone. Had you looked in the Demo it clearly stated when playing the other modes that they would be opened with additional purchases.

[Rirath]

So, from what I see reading the article...... how does this have anything to do with MS doing damage control? A bunch of people (including 1UP) thinking it's utterly stupid isn't what I call "damage control".

[Camel]

I still think the only problem here is the same problem Perigon has...people don't want to pay more for Lumines than they do for other XBLA game. Whether or not you think it's worth it is a personal choice. I have been wanting to play it since the PSP version came out (I don't have a PSP though) and knew I would be paying more than other live arcade games. With that being said, I like what wyeast posted...nice car analogy! I don't know if I necessarily feel deceived though, because it would be like buying a car for much less money than you thought it would cost, and THEN finding out it didn't have wheels or a roof. You might be irritated that you didn't get a fantastic deal on a full package, but at that price you probably shouldn't have expected it all anyways. Again, it all comes down to whether or not you think the game is worth the price. If not, don't buy it.

Just like most things in life, we can sum it all up with a quote from This is Spinal Tap (although the reference isn't really needed here, but I like to tie everything to Spinal Tap :D ):

"Money talks, bullshit walks!"

[Furious Wang]

I got lumines on my cell phone for 6 bucks...

[rein]

This game is NOT a XBL game. Microsoft should have not allowed them to use a loophole to make it available on Live. The "complete" game does not follow any of the criteria for a XBL game. This is a retail game and should have been sold on disk.

[RestlessAvenger]

It isn't using a loophole. Why shouldn't they be able to expand Live Arcade if they so desire. A move like this opens up Live Arcade to things like episodic gaming (Sam and Max anyone?)

Just because you have a small definition of what makes a XBLA game doesn't mean that definition can't change.

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

A move like this opens up Live Arcade to things like episodic gaming (Sam and Max anyone?)

I would think putting up actual episodic content would pave the way for episodic gaming. If splitting off stuff like Vs. CPU mode is "episodic" then we should be really glad Capcom and MS put all the "episodic" content for SFII Hyper in a single package -- otherwise we might still be waiting for the "Arcade Mode" expansion.

[Borys]

There is no Micropayments in this game. Micro is like $1. $7.50 and $15.00 is NOT a Micropayment.

I know that very well, but we have to draw a line somewhere and say "Stop doing this, Evil Companies. You shall not pass any further with this kind of slimey shit."

Otherwise we will get owned later on with inexcusable scroogery.

I wasn't hostile towards the MICRORAPEMENTS at the beginning. First blow was GT: HD with its buying one car/ track at a time, second was Lumines Live, third - Warhawk.

Now, even before the PS3 launched, I am a vocal hater of all things MICRORAPEMENTS.

Cutting down content, splitting games in parts, paying for demos, paying for motherfucking CHEAT CODES - this shit has to stop somewhere or gaming will go down the shitter.

Support the "SAY NO TO MICRORAPEMENTS" movement before it's too late.

[rein]

Support the "SAY NO TO MICRORAPEMENTS" movement before it's too late.

I'm jumping on the bandwagon with you. This is getting ridiculous and it will only get worse. This is starting to make the horse armor fiasco look like a bargain. I do not mind micropayements, but I do mind not getting a full game when I pay for something. No "expansion" to a game should release at the same time as the actual game. Period! That is not an expansion.

[Loganrapp]

Why not just say Say No To Paying For Things?

Now you're thinking, comrade!

[rein]

Just because you have a small definition of what makes a XBLA game doesn't mean that definition can't change.

I didn't make guidlines for XBLA games, Microsoft did! I guess this is just another example of choice. You can chose to have a full game, or you can chose to have a demo. :rolleyes:

[beefyjr]

Microrapements.
That's classy.

In actual fact, there's more content in the base pack + advance pack for 23 dollars than there was in Lumines 1 on PSP for 30 dollars.

People need to cut the fucking crying about this game. You all have some retarded fucking mental block about how downloadable games should be priced. If this game had shipped on a disc, nobody would be doing all this bellyaching.

A quick boot of the PSP Lumines (a year-and-a-half old game that now costs $20, not $30) shows that for challenge mode, you get like ten more skins for the extra $2.50 the Advance Pack will cost you (though note that some of the new ones reuse sound assets), but you don't get all of the Vs. CPU or Puzzle Mode content, which is substantial. Priced out where they are now, it will cost you $37.50 to net a similar amount of content that can be picked up for almost half that on the PSP.

Ultimately, the real problem (and the one that people are griping about on the Gamerscore blog, pitchforks and torches in hand) on this is that Microsoft wasn't upfront about what you were actually getting, which would have allowed people to make informed purchasing decisions given the fucked up pricing on the extra packs (I'm down with spinning off the different modes as separate downloads, but in that case everything should have been $5, or the extra stuff should have been either free or cost a token amount if the download size was truly the issue). I didn't play the demo, I was just like "Sweet, Lumines!" and downloaded it. As it stands now the "base" game is incomplete. That's fine if that's how they want to do business, but it would have been nice for them to have put exactly what my fifteen dollars was and wasn't getting me in the description for the title.

[Johan]

So, from what I see reading the article...... how does this have anything to do with MS doing damage control? A bunch of people (including 1UP) thinking it's utterly stupid isn't what I call "damage control".

I was wondering the same thing....there's no damage control here; there's just talk about the damage.

Damage control would be announcing that one of the upcoming add-ons would be free, or lower in price...or some such thing.

However, I don't really have a problem with what they've done with the pricing and packs here...I'm sitting on the demo and waiting to decide on a purchase.

[Zero]

I noticed the demo doesn't come with the actual music from the PSP version does the *cough*full*cough* XBLA version have it?

[Orosco]

I understand breaking the game into different segments due to size, but to charge for each piece is just lame. I'd just rather have a boxed version of the game, they way the final price for the "full" game is looking.

[Morangie]

I understand breaking the game into different segments due to size, but to charge for each piece is just lame. I'd just rather have a boxed version of the game, they way the final price for the "full" game is looking.
You would rather have a boxed version that costs the same as all the pieces put together than the final price of all the pieces put together?

[DeadScreenSky]

MICRORAPEMENTS
MICRORAPEMENTS
MICRORAPEMENTS
Do you even know what RAPE actually is, Borys? :rolleyes:

I know you've pledged your life to FUDing Xbox to death, but maybe you could do it in a slightly less obscene manner?

[Last of the Red Hot Mamas]

You would rather have a boxed version that costs the same as all the pieces put together than the final price of all the pieces put together?

I agree with him. I like physically owning the stuff I buy, and since this will probably end up costing the same as a budget-price boxed game, well, what's so crazy about that?

[Borys]

Do you even know what RAPE actually is, Borys? :rolleyes:


Once again I did not come with this word myself. I saw it on a funny PLAYSTATION 3 (*gasp* not an X360 one) photoshop.

I know you've pledged your life to FUDing Xbox to death, but maybe you could do it in a slightly less obscene manner?

I see no difference in MICRORAPEMENTS on Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo console, sorry!

Borys

PS "Rape Me" by Nirvana is one of my favourite songs ever.

[DeadScreenSky]

Once again I did not come with this word myself. I saw it on a funny PLAYSTATION 3 (*gasp* not an X360 one) photoshop.
Why would I care about that? Are you seriously suggesting that just because some idiotic Xbox fanboys use the term that it's okay for you to do the same?

I see no difference in MICRORAPEMENTS on Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo console, sorry!

Borys

PS "Rape Me" by Nirvana is one of my favourite songs ever.
None of that takes away from the fact it makes you look like a ridiculously rude little child.

[KamaItachi]

I agree with him. I like physically owning the stuff I buy, and since this will probably end up costing the same as a budget-price boxed game, well, what's so crazy about that?

Hopefully like some of the other XBLA games, Lumines will come out as a full boxed game option.

[Johan]

Borys...the reasons microRAPEments isn't an appropriate moniker here are several:

1. Rape is a forced sexual act upon another....Marketplace obviously isn't.
2. MS doesn't force anyone to spend their money on the Marketplace (rape). They might want the power to be able to impel (rape) consumer spending, but they don't have that power.
3. The pricing structure of the Marketplace is really not simple enough to entirely fit within the idea of "micropayments." More offerings are coming along which charge 800-1200 points. It seems to me it's no longer a "micropayment" or 'microRAPEment" if you're paying 10 or 15 bucks. Perhaps under five would fit as a micropayment. I don't think there's an accepted cutoff in price, but it seems to me that 1200 points isn't micro-anything.

I'm sure there are more, but I can't think of them right now.

[Vermillion]

Johan, teacher of the free world, 1
Borys, the illegimate love child of a Playstation and Ron Perlman bobblehead doll, 0

[Grave]

I hate microsoft for clearly illustrating in the demo what portions of the game would be available and wouldn't be.

I hate microsoft for not playing to my assumptions that I would be getting a 40 dollar game for 15 dollars.

I hate you so much microsoft, when will you learn the only way for you to make ME the consumer happy is by #1 making your games the best they can possibly be and selling them to me for nothing, infact you should pay me to play your games but make sure they don't have advertisments in them either. I don't want you to be able to make money on the game at all! Failing that you can #2 make your games easy to pirate so that I can mooch off of other people who feel like spending money.

I hate IT when you make me buy games in a different way, I hate it when I have to pay YEARLY, MONTHLY, WEEKLY, to be able to use services. Please recognize that I the consumer am displeased with this new fangled way of distribution. Please do not ever do it again so that I can go back to complaining about how EA releases the same sports games every year.

Thank you

[ElPresidente]

Much love Grave. Much love. :D

[Johan]

Grave...the only possible improvement for your post would be if you were orange! Nicely done!

[ilian]

In actual fact, there's more content in the base pack + advance pack for 23 dollars than there was in Lumines 1 on PSP for 30 dollars.

People need to cut the fucking crying about this game. You all have some retarded fucking mental block about how downloadable games should be priced. If this game had shipped on a disc, nobody would be doing all this bellyaching.

Lumines for PSP came with A full puzzle and VS CPU mode which were my favorite parts of the game. Lumines LIVE!+advance pack comes with neither

[ilian]

The annoying thing to me upon puchasing lumines, was that I had been keeping up with it for a while, reading the all the previews, checking it out at e3. Then I see Lumines Live finally on XBLA, one download, the 'full version', i download it, and not a single feature from ANY of the previews exist. Instead its less of a game than the old PSP version, with minimal enhancements for xbox, and the online multiplayer is unplayable.

I think those are pretty reasonable things to be dissapointed about. You see a game advertised and hyped for 6 months having X, Y, and Z features, you buy it and it has none of those features, I think most people would feel ripped off.

[soco]

well the ign interview says that the 50MB limit was only half of it, but basically that they really wanted to gouge people ;)

i payed 50Euro (~60$) for this game on the PSP, and it so wasn't worth it. don't get me wrong, the game is a lot of fun, but just not 50Euro worth of fun, especially when there are some similar arcade game experiences that are just as much fun at 10-15$, which is why i thought it was cool that it was all repriced.

i'm not so upset with the pricing though as the way that it's been packaged. ie, have fun with the five items in puzzle mode, and if you want more than 5, you've gotta wait 6 months. we'd already waited 6 months for the damn game, and they don't have the other packs ready to download yet? wtf is up with that?

[51|RandoM]

Borys...the reasons microRAPEments isn't an appropriate moniker here are several:

1. Rape is a forced sexual act upon another....Marketplace obviously isn't.
2. MS doesn't force anyone to spend their money on the Marketplace (rape). They might want the power to be able to impel (rape) consumer spending, but they don't have that power.


1. You're getting fucked either way, which is why whomever started the microrapements thing did so. Whenever anybody uses raped like that, it is what they mean, getting fucked when you obviously don't want to get fucked, but aren't left with a choice in the matter... which is what rape means.
2. They don't? Then please tell us how to play the full version of Lumines on a 360 without the macrorapements of the current pricing scheme?

The last time I saw a pricing plan so obscure and obtuse, I was looking at oracle licensing on multicore RISC platforms.

I'm not saying the full package price isn't worth it to a Lumines fan who wants it, but why did they have to come up with this bizarre division of content?

[Goronmon]

QQ more n00bs.

[Phades]

I was pretty pissed at first and thought it was very underhanded.

Now, I think it as $22.50 well spent. I bought the base and advance packs and I'm done. I don't care about the rest so I won't buy it. Heck, I actually kind of like it. Would I have preferred it be cheaper? Sure, but I'm over it. It's not a retro game or some indie game. This is a full-fledged pro developer product and it shows both in the polish and presentation.

[Evil Avnovice]

I bit the bullet and downloaded the full version of Lumines Live. You do get ripped off in skins available in some ways, as the skins available in the first game aren't all there, but the current selection is nice.

Begrudgingly, I could get used to the d-pad most of the time, yet it constantly feels like I really had to struggle with it in crucial moments. :mad:

I guess price isn't much of an issue as before. Here's to hoping they release a patch to fix the control a little.