PS3 Won't Offer Enhancements for Back Compat [Archive]

soco

10-20-2006, 06:45 AM

1up (http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3154561) is reporting that Harrison has confirmed that the PS3 won't enhance the older PS1 & PS2 games.

According to Harrison, unlike how the PS2 would enhance PS1 games with texture smoothing and what not, the PS3 will offer no such visual enhancements (including resolution enhancements) for the previous generation titles. "They are as exactly as they were," said Harrison, who claims Sony preferred to rather deliver them in their original state.

In a related bit of news from IGN (http://ps3.ign.com/articles/740/740601p4.html), Sony has also confirmed the PS3 will not upscale DVDs. (Thanks Reanimated)

Lunar Blue

10-20-2006, 06:55 AM

Uh, how hard would be to add anti-aliasing and anistrophic filtering? Same goes for 360.

Doctor Setebos

10-20-2006, 07:01 AM

Nintendo is doing the same thing with their VC games. It doesn't surprise me, and I honestly don't expect them to upgrade the quality of an old game.

DangerousDaze

10-20-2006, 07:02 AM

I suspect that the priority requirement is for the old games to actually work. ;)

I only ever played about 2 PS1 titles on my PS2 and I wouldn't expect that trend to change too much if (and probably when) I get a PS3 so for me this certainly isn't a deal breaker.

DD

/edit - removed an uneccessary piece about PS2 hardware in the PS3. Even if it uses PS2 hardware the image could still be post-processed before it went to the frame buffer, so it's not beyond the realms of possibility.

Gorvi

10-20-2006, 07:02 AM

I would guess this is because it may cause issues with the way some games run, and rather than having to make fixes for individual games, we simply get them to play and that's it.

Spigot

10-20-2006, 07:03 AM

Heretic Machine

10-20-2006, 07:09 AM

I can understand not tweaking the resolution, but you'd think they'd at least include the texture smoothing for the PS1 games that the PS2 offered. That feature alone really made some of the later PS1 games pop on the PS2 (I'm looking at you, Xenogears, Grandia and Vagrant Story). It was like playing a totally different game.

...I've played Xenogears on the PS2 with that feature turned on, and it still doesn't look any better. In fact, I can't notice the difference.

Varsity

10-20-2006, 07:12 AM

I actually prefer it this way. Older games can look odd when you improve only certain parts of them, and sometimes the retro textures are just cool. People bitched about Half-Life: Source (http://www.steampowered.com/v/index.php?area=game&AppId=280) and drool over Black Mesa (http://www.blackmesasource.com/), but my feelings go quite the other way.

51|RandoM

10-20-2006, 07:19 AM

Abednigo

10-20-2006, 07:20 AM

I can't imagine the difference being as dramatic as it was for some of the PS1 games though.

KingGorilla

10-20-2006, 07:20 AM

Games not meant to be played in HD can have big issues when you try to scale them up. But...it was probably easier and faster and cheaper to just get them as is, how much crap has Xbox 360 been through trying to do all that stuff with old Xbox games?

Spigot

10-20-2006, 07:22 AM

...I've played Xenogears on the PS2 with that feature turned on, and it still doesn't look any better. In fact, I can't notice the difference.
That's because you obviously need your eyes checked! :cool:

It looked markedly better with the texture smoothing on. It wasn't as big a leap in visual quality as on Vagrant Story, which just looked amazing with texture smoothing on, but it was a definate improvement, esp when wandering through the towns.

EternalGamer

10-20-2006, 07:24 AM

Maybe in the future they will be able to upgrade the OS to add some of these things, but I'm much happier just knowning that I can actually PLAY all of my old PS1 and PS2 games.

alejandro79

10-20-2006, 07:25 AM

1080p sistem + emulation = 480i games

EternalGamer

10-20-2006, 07:31 AM

It's not emulation. The PS3 has the PS2 graphic's chip inside it.

KidCactus

10-20-2006, 07:31 AM

1080p sistem + emulation = 480i games
What is your point here?

Kelegacy

10-20-2006, 07:43 AM

It's not emulation. The PS3 has the PS2 graphic's chip inside it.
Don't try. Trying to educate trolls is like trying to get a pull-string doll to say something other than the 3 programmed phrases:

"Sony is arrogant!"
"PS3 Sucks"
"Sony lies!"

bone_matrix

10-20-2006, 07:44 AM

They aren't adding enhancements because they're not running in emulation. The ps2 hardware is duplicated in the ps3, just as the ps1 hardware was duplicated in the p2.

It is the tradeoff for 100% backwards compatibility.

They had the PS1 hardware in the PS2, but still had texture smoothing and fast loading...why can't they do that on the PS3? I also don't think the PS3 will be 100% compatible with all of the PS1 and PS2 catalogue.

edit: Reading FTW!!!

soco

10-20-2006, 07:56 AM

They had the PS1 hardware in the PS2, but still had texture smoothing and fast loading...why can't they do that on the PS3? I also don't think the PS3 will be 100% compatible with all of the PS1 and PS2 catalogue.

it can't be without the addition of some peripheral to connect old peripherals into the former joystick slot, but it should be like 99.*%.

then there's always a handful of titles where some developer relied upon some set of ports to be mirrored for 64K with some retarded bug where they constantly increase the port number. that's why sony always puts on slides that little disclaimer about those that comply with their little specifications.

alejandro79

10-20-2006, 07:57 AM

well what about 1080p sistem + ps1 games = 480i

KidCactus

10-20-2006, 08:00 AM

well what about 1080p sistem + ps1 games = 480i
Yes, what about it? I'm getting confused here...

EternalGamer

10-20-2006, 08:03 AM

Gorvi

10-20-2006, 08:06 AM

Yes, what about it? I'm getting confused here...

He's trying to be a smartass and say that a 1080p system with PSOne games will only be displaying in 480i. Really, it's classic comedy. /sarcasm off

Savok

10-20-2006, 08:06 AM

Some of my PS1 games didn't like the texture smoothing anyway, menus would break and so on. Get the things working 100% and I'm happy, you only try for 110% when you're sure it won't cause trouble.

Reanimated

10-20-2006, 08:15 AM

You can also add this to the headline - PS3 will not upscale DVDs:

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/740/740601p4.html

Kamalot

10-20-2006, 08:20 AM

This was fairly well-known ever since Sony stated that it woudn't be getting PS2 emulation to run properly and therefore would be introducing a PS2 chipset into the PS3.

Through emulation, they could run the game at a higher resolution or enhance the textures (like Bleem). With hardware, it will be just like playing on PS2.

Roc Ingersol

10-20-2006, 08:30 AM

It better still 'age' my DVDs into an HD experience!

KidCactus

10-20-2006, 08:30 AM

You can also add this to the headline - PS3 will not upscale DVDs:

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/740/740601p4.html
"The Xbox 360 upscales DVDs, so it's surprising to see SCE go without the feature."

It does!?

Royal Fool

10-20-2006, 08:36 AM

Not even a resolution upgrade? Man...

Reanimated

10-20-2006, 08:46 AM

"The Xbox 360 upscales DVDs, so it's surprising to see SCE go without the feature."

It does!?

Only if you have it connected via VGA.

KingGorilla

10-20-2006, 08:50 AM

Wii-64 Bit System, NES-8 bit games
Wii=a bit gaming.

There I can use retard logic too.

KidCactus

10-20-2006, 08:50 AM

Only if you have it connected via VGA.
Oh ok. Strange, I must say. Is there a good reason why it's via VGA only? I'd really want it via component too, since my VGA port on my TV is already occupied.

DangerousDaze

10-20-2006, 08:57 AM

They aren't adding enhancements because they're not running in emulation. The ps2 hardware is duplicated in the ps3, just as the ps1 hardware was duplicated in the p2.
That's what I said originally but then I thought about it a little more and edited it out of my post. Even though they're using PS2 hardware there's no reason why they couldn't pipe the frame buffer of the PS2 hardware into a post-processing stage performed by the PS3 hardware to add FSAA or whathaveyou before sending it out. Something like this:

1) PS3 Hardware abstraction layer (read PS2 disks, handle PS3 controllers etc.)
2) PS2 hardware layer executes the code and generates a frame
3) PS3 hardware layer post-processes the frame
4) Frame is displayed.

Like I said though, I'm not in the least concerned that they don't support this.

DD

lost

10-20-2006, 08:59 AM

I've quite honestly never noticed the differences that the PS2s supposed features made.

It would have been nice if they could have some way offered AA, just to smooth out those lines of Crash Bandicoots face. On the other had, maybe the jaggies made things look curvier than they were.

Ph00p

10-20-2006, 09:03 AM

Heres one everyone forgot, NO RUMBLE in ANY games even some that desperately require them for gameplay elements, but fuck that right NO RUMBLE RULES.

Maskatron

10-20-2006, 09:08 AM

Well, there goes one of the reasons that may have pushed me to buy a PS3 before a price break. I still like a lot of PS2 and PS1 games, but they make my eyes bleed on my HDTV.

Joestar

10-20-2006, 09:16 AM

The rumble thing? I'm betting Sony will update their gamepad with a rumble feature before 2007's out. They're probably working on a rumble version that isn't anywhere near Immersion's rumble patent.

I'm not sure if I'll be pissed off if it really did happen, only wish is they don't jack up the price to a bloody $60 per gamepad.

Heretic Machine

10-20-2006, 09:26 AM

Heres one everyone forgot, NO RUMBLE in ANY games even some that desperately require them for gameplay elements, but fuck that right NO RUMBLE RULES.

Ya, a lot of games depend on rumble. I mean, I can't even count the number of games that depend on rumble. Seriously, I can't, because I can't really remember any. But fuck, there must of been at least one crazy dating sim that depended on the rumble.

And the Rez vibrator? That an't going to work anymore. This is blatant discrimination against women!

absolut taco

10-20-2006, 09:30 AM

Heres one everyone forgot, NO RUMBLE in ANY games even some that desperately require them for gameplay elements, but fuck that right NO RUMBLE RULES.
There's trolling and and then there's Phoop... :rolleyes:

GigaFuzz

10-20-2006, 09:30 AM

Oh ok. Strange, I must say. Is there a good reason why it's via VGA only? I'd really want it via component too, since my VGA port on my TV is already occupied.

As far as I know, they're adding upscaling via component in the big autumn update.

That might have changed though - I havn't been keeping up.

Zanzibar

10-20-2006, 09:44 AM

Oh ok. Strange, I must say. Is there a good reason why it's via VGA only? I'd really want it via component too, since my VGA port on my TV is already occupied.

Yeah, it sucks. Here's (http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/09/21/xbox-360-hd-dvd-playback-maximum-1080i-via-component-1080p-vga/) a summary from Engadget:

VGA:
HD DVD - 1080p resolution and all others
DVD - Upscaled as high as 1080p resolution and all others
Games - 720p games upscaled to 1080p, also supports native-1080p games in the future

Component:
HD DVD - 1080i resolution maximum, limited by AACS
DVD - Upscaled to 480p maximum, limited by CSS
Games - 720p games upscaled to 1080p, also supports native-1080p games in the future
I suppose it is possible for Microsoft to throw a bunch of money or incentives at the AACS and the CSS to allow MS to skirt the rules.

Reanimated

10-20-2006, 09:52 AM

Yeah, it's allowed over VGA because of the PC connections loophole. They'd have to get the rules changed if they wanted to do it over component.

oldjadedgamer

10-20-2006, 10:29 AM

They aren't adding enhancements because they're not running in emulation. The ps2 hardware is duplicated in the ps3, just as the ps1 hardware was duplicated in the p2.

It is the tradeoff for 100% backwards compatibility.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't "100% backwards compatibility" mean that every single game works? It's very well known that the PS2 cannot play certain PS1 games at all. So if the PS2 wasn't "100%" then how can the PS3 be?

Siraris

10-20-2006, 10:44 AM

Over at IGN they said that the quote was misinterpreted and they are going to Sony today to clarify. The "no upscaling" was in reference to DVD, not games.

poopiediaper

10-20-2006, 11:38 AM

"Sony preferred to rather deliver them in their original state"

yea sure...

51|RandoM

10-20-2006, 11:45 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't "100% backwards compatibility" mean that every single game works? It's very well known that the PS2 cannot play certain PS1 games at all. So if the PS2 wasn't "100%" then how can the PS3 be?

What does the ps2 not being able to play some ps1 games have to do with the ps3 not being able to play some ps2 games?

Ok, fine, there'll be a few games that may not work for some wierd reason or other. The few games that used rumble as key gameplay feature, with no option to use other cues will also be in a bind.

Savok

10-20-2006, 12:03 PM

There's trolling and and then there's Phoop... :rolleyes:
No he does have a point. What's the initial helicopter scene in MGS without your controller almost killing itself?

GabeCube

10-20-2006, 12:19 PM

No he does have a point. What's the initial helicopter scene in MGS without your controller almost killing itself?

It's been a while and I might not be 100% sure... but didn't the cellphone the ninja use to contact you in MGS2 only vibrate the controller for you to know you were receiving a call?

Savok

10-20-2006, 12:22 PM

I've tried to block out MGS2 as much as possible. I do know all the MGS games have made borderline excessive use of rumble though.

see colon

10-20-2006, 12:46 PM

What does the ps2 not being able to play some ps1 games have to do with the ps3 not being able to play some ps2 games?

how about the PSTwo (and the PS-X for that matter) not playing all PS2 software. sure, sony's record with backwards compatability is better than Microsofts, but MS never claimed 100% compatability, where sony has, and failed to deliver.

Siraris

10-20-2006, 12:48 PM

I don't know why having PS2/PS1 components in the PS3 would make it not be able to improve game quality. The PS2 had the PS1 components inside it and it was able to do so. I'm thinking that it just wasn't worth the money. I mean how many people can honestly say they used the features with the PS2? Jury still out on upscaling res, though.

Disgustipated

10-20-2006, 01:09 PM

What a bunch of bullshit. It wouldn't be THAT hard to up the res, add AA and AF to PS2 games. I play Final Fantasy X on my PC with antialiasing, anisotropic filtering, at 1280x1024 and it runs around 40-60 FPS.

For God's sake, this was a big point of buying the PS3 for me. Imagine playing Okami, Shadow of the Colossus, Gran Turismo 4, God of War 1/2, Final Fantasy 12, Metal Gear Solid 3 etc in HD, with antialiasing and anisotropic filtering. That would be almost next-gen graphics in themselves.

UnderHero5

10-20-2006, 02:02 PM

Hemalin

10-20-2006, 03:45 PM

Heres one everyone forgot, NO RUMBLE in ANY games even some that desperately require them for gameplay elements, but fuck that right NO RUMBLE RULES.
What games desperately require rumble for gameplay elements?

Fernie417

10-20-2006, 04:24 PM

Wow, I'm surprised there isn't more of an outcry over the lack of DVD upscaling, especially after the whole "ages video like fine wine" statement made a year or two ago. Color me disappointed.

bapenguin

10-20-2006, 05:58 PM

Oh ok. Strange, I must say. Is there a good reason why it's via VGA only? I'd really want it via component too, since my VGA port on my TV is already occupied.

It's a restriction of the DVD Copy protection scheme. It'll only allow for upscaling over a protected connection like HDMI/DVI and apparantly VGA.

Utils

10-20-2006, 06:01 PM

Backwards compatability doesn't help me if I'm trying to play my "backups".

Tyrant

10-20-2006, 07:00 PM

Wouldn't the menu's and text need to be adjusted for a higher resolution if they were to upscale it? Else it might be unreadable or not fit the screen right? Or am I just way off base (no HDTV here, so I dunno, I'm thinking in terms of PC games).

You're way off base.

If a game wasn't designed to be displayed in a higher resolution, it seems like it wouldn't work very well.

I thought you were thinking in terms of PC games, where multiple resolutions are available to you.

Not to mention if it was post processed up-scaling being sent from the PS2 chip through the PS3 graphics processer, it seems like there would at least be a LITTLE lag between your inputs and what happens on screen.

It's certainly possible for a few milliseconds of lag to occur, but the tradeoff in exchange for enhanced visual quality would be worthwhile, save for games that require precision timing.

No offense, but the people saying "this is bullshit" don't have a right to complain, in my eyes. Sony never said PS2 games would be in HD, you made that up and now you're dissapointed that it's not true.

You might be right regarding Sony never saying that PS2 games would be in HD, but there may be a interview floating around somewhere with such a statement from Ken "KooKooKaChoo" Kutagari according to http://www.bonafidereviews.com/article.php?id=143:

The next relatively interesting bit of information, which lays a great deal of my personal worries to rest is the PS3 will be fully backwards compatible with both PS1 and PS2 games. This is a massive blow to Microsoft’s limited compatibility with Xbox Version 1. The mention of full HD-TV support while playing previous Playstation games in PS3 was also mentioned, stating that the PS3's hardware will in fact upscale all previous games into full 720P support as well as 4x Anti aliasing. The retro-gamers can breathe a sigh off relief with that information as Sony’s backwards compatibilty was in serious question. Especially with there "no comment" statements whenever directly asked about PS3's backwards compatibilty.

cool8man

10-20-2006, 10:39 PM

So PS3 plays PS2/PS1 games in 480i, PS3 plays DVDs up to 480p, and it comes bundled with composite cables that only allow max resolution of 480i for Blu-ray movies and PS3 games. Pretty stupid considering how much Sony has been hyping up 1080p.

The vast majority of consumers will just hook up the system with the cables that come in the box. The inability to upscale DVDs to 720p or 1080p is really odd since it seems like a pretty standard feature of dedicated Blu-ray and HD DVD players.

Virtual Machine

10-21-2006, 04:00 PM

Actually - it's been confirmed that the American version of the hardware will include a combo Composite/Component cable for HD - And anyone who told you you NEED HDMI for 1080p is a liar.

1080p will work just fine through component inputs for both bluray and hd-dvd. The Image constraint token is presently disabled on about 99 percent of the discs on the market. Now should the content producers decide to start using that shizzle - we all be screwed without HDMI.

I'm a tad dissapointed that we won't get some anti aliasing or upscaling - the 360 does a fantastic job of cleaning up first gen xbox games (check out KOTOR, KOTOR II, Jade Empire, or Fable if you don't believe me). I look at FFXII or Valkyrie Profile 2 now on my display, and think about how gorgeous these games would look without all of the aliasing - same goes for Shadow of the Colossus.

Jack B

10-21-2006, 04:17 PM

My guess is most people who would pop in a PS2 or PS One game would do it for the gameplay. Although, it is nice on the 360 to have the graphics upgraded a bit, it's probably not that big a deal for most people. The contrast (on an HDTV anyway) will be striking, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

KingGorilla

10-21-2006, 04:24 PM

Yeah, it sucks. Here's (http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/09/21/xbox-360-hd-dvd-playback-maximum-1080i-via-component-1080p-vga/) a summary from Engadget:

VGA:
HD DVD - 1080p resolution and all others
DVD - Upscaled as high as 1080p resolution and all others
Games - 720p games upscaled to 1080p, also supports native-1080p games in the future

Component:
HD DVD - 1080i resolution maximum, limited by AACS
DVD - Upscaled to 480p maximum, limited by CSS
Games - 720p games upscaled to 1080p, also supports native-1080p games in the future
I suppose it is possible for Microsoft to throw a bunch of money or incentives at the AACS and the CSS to allow MS to skirt the rules.
That Engadget article is highly misleading. Many, if not Most HD-DVD and Blu-Ray supporting studios will require that you use HDMI and the DRM(digital rights management) that comes with that signal to get the full potential out of your player. Meaning, you may not be able to get a signal better than 720p without HDMI, regardless of the VHA, DVI, Component signal's capabilities.