EVE Online: The Path to Kali

[Varsity]

EVE Online is often noted as being one of the few games that just about everyone respects, even if they don't enjoy (Edit: Or maybe not. Where have all you guys gone?). Eurogamer are now hosting journalistic proponent Jim Rossignol's new preview of Kali, project name for CCP's ongoing expansion of their starkly beautiful and utterly unforgiving universe. You might recognise some of the Icelandic developers' design principles as being shared with a certain other company...
Even as a regular space-pilot I find it a bit difficult to reconcile the obscure and anti-populist game model with its ever-increasing success. People really do seem to want something beautiful but unforgiving. Eve originally evinced such groans of disgust and disbelief from my gaming peers that I expected it to fail utterly... It didn't. It has simply become more popular and more versatile. Eve grows bigger, stronger, more terrifying, and routinely pales even the mightiest of MMOs with its creative achievements. It is a game that does not seem to have made any concessions to tradition, and somehow that tenacity has paid off.http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/8182/ssprevieweve2gx2.jpg
Read the preview now (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=66636)

Every time I read about EVE I literally throw my arms in the air and slam my fists on the desks at being unable to involve myself with such an incredible work of interactive, communal fiction. I hope that some of you reading are having better luck!

[BigJonno]

I remember trying EVE with my wife a few months back. One of my friends was heavily involved with it and knew a couple of people who played. I was really looking forward to it.

I don't think it even took half an hour to turn us off completely. It was just so dull, anal and incredibly boring. If a game can't even make your first few minutes entertaining and engaging, it really is lacking something.

[Draft]

Why would you respect a game at all, let alone one you don't enjoy? EVE is a grindfest. Maybe the worst grindfest in MMO history, which is certainly saying something. I have no idea how it became the dahling of the community around here. Maybe because for all its grindy goodness, you literally never have to group, making it perfect for those that cry hard at the prospect of raiding.

Every time I read about EVE I literally throw my arms in the air and slam my fists on the desks at being unable to involve myself with such an incredible work of interactive, communal fictionI hope you don't read about EVE when there are other people in the room, or else they might think you're insane.

[Varsity]

If you are grinding, you are failing (not to mention lacking imagination).

Rossignol says it best: it's "player-combat and socio-economic machinations" that makes the game.

Edit: it is sort of funny to get the first two replies from haters. All of the previous EVE threads have been packed full of praise. Wonder what will happen when America wakes up in a few hours.

[Draft]

lol, the socio-economic machinations being where you mine asteroids for 5 hours while chatting with some dude from Omaha?

edit: BWAHAHAHA, oh that's rich. Damn stupid americans, what with their magick spells and epic items. When will they wake up and realize hauling space dust around for the better part of an evening is where the real fun is at!

[Varsity]

I think you missed the first para of my reply.

edit: BWAHAHAHA, oh that's rich. Damn stupid americans, what with their magick spells and epic items. When will they wake up and realize hauling space dust around for the better part of an evening is where the real fun is at!
Actually, you'll find that I mean 'wake up' to be 'get out of bed and arrive at work/turn on computer to start reading the site'.

[Draft]

Hold on a second.

If you are grinding, you are failing (not to mention lacking imagination).
Every time I read about EVE I literally throw my arms in the air and slam my fists on the desks at being unable to involve myself with such an incredible work of interactive, communal fiction.Do you even play the game?

edit: lol, sorry about that. You use so many sweeping, overdramatic metaphors.

[Royal Fool]

I don't think he's played it. Eve is a massive grindfest where you log in, click a skill to level up and log out. And mine asteroids or fly between waypoints. The universe fiction is alright, but it's only a very small (And free) part of the package.

It's a game by an Icelandic developer and not even I respect it very much.

[The Continental]

When EVE is good, it's spectacular, namely in regards to its PvP combat. The rest of the time, it is sadly what everyone has described above, it's the grind that plays itself. Log on, manage your skill advancement, start mining and go out for the evening. Start a 15-20 jump courier mission and go watch TV for a half an hour, etc. Just because the grind doesn't involve you actually being at the computer for it, doesn't mean there is any less of a grind before you can really take part in the more interesting aspects of the game (with any chance of surviving/contributing).

[Draft]

Such socio-economic machinations!

[captainstrombosis]

Yes, you can go your entire time playing EvE without grouping. You can constantly grind and you can mine non stop if you wish.

That doesn't mean that is what the game is about. The grinding was no worse than any other MMO I have played, because most of it was able to be done easily while you accomplished other things. The real game is the PvP combat, or for many people, the large economy.

EvE has fallen from it's fun days in the beggining some what, but it's still an excellent game aslong as you have patients. If you don't have patients, you wont get to the good stuff, and EvE probubly isn't your game.

If you want to accomplish anything of importance in the game, grouping is a must. Large scale PvP is wonderful. I know most people don't want to give it a shot, and I certainly think the way the leveling system works is a real weakness in the game. It however isn't as bad as you make it sound in regards to grinding. Lineage 2, EQ2, WoW end game all have it beat in my book. This is all just my opinion though.

EvE has consistently added more content for FREE, which is awesome ;)

[theguido]

I tried it for the 15-day trial and while I actually liked the ship-building and space combat bits of it, the amount of time needed to travel wore very, very thin after a while. If they could find some way of mitigating that issue I might actually consider trying it again.

[hotdrop]

its a very sloooow game. It desgined in such a way that you cant adance by just paying and as such you end up having to pay 6 months of fees just to get a charector that has enough skills to be playable.

[captainstrombosis]

its a very sloooow game. It desgined in such a way that you cant adance by just paying and as such you end up having to pay 6 months of fees just to get a charector that has enough skills to be playable.

Yeah, this is the games biggest problem IMO.

[jacktion]

Eve is awesome. But it is not for everyone. It is very complex and has a learning curve that some people can't get by. It would be nice if people could just respect the fact that some people like it and some don't instead of churlishly slamming the game as much as possible and saying that they wished it was wiped from the face of the planet. It is fine if you wish to spend all your time hating a game with every ounce of your being but obviously other people are getting something out of it. Don't get mad because you can't. Just move on and go play WOW some more.

I think Eve is amazing. But it takes a while to get going. And a lot of it revolves around player interaction. But the path that the developers have taken of allowing free-market forces to rein and players to shape their own stories is very rewarding and deep. I find that WOW is a little too pre-packaged and limits your actions. Everyone winds up with the same epic armor and epic sword and they all wind up running the same end-game instances over and over. Eve is more about giving back as much as you put into it.

[Draft]

I don't hate EVE, I just find the concept that its design should be respected spurious. It's a grind heavy, player economy driven MMO. So was Star Wars: Galaxies, but no one writes loving sonnets there.

edit: except the entertainer class.

[balamoor]

I for one enjoy EvE, it has been my observation that the main reason many don't is because the game actually requires you to think, no it doesn’t play out like an FPS or some of the Fast Food MMO's out there. The community for the most part is mature and intelligent (Yet Machiavellian more often than not) you won't find; lowbrow, L337 speaking raid whores, which is probably why Draft dislikes it. As far as not grouping goes, yeah you never have to group, but not doing so is insane especially if you have two of the larger combines trying to obliterate you on a daily basis.

All in all fun is where you find it, and means different things to different people.

[OrangePulp]

My thoughts on EvE always come down to this: If I wanted to play a game where you don't play as much as in Eve, I'd just go play Progress Quest (www.progressquest.com). I mean, people always talk about how, once you invest the very large amount of time needed, that it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, etc. Even if this was true (which I doubt), I'd rather go play something where I can enjoy myself at least most of the time that is spent just to get to the equivalent of level 60 in WoW, or what have you.

[balamoor]

My thoughts on EvE always come down to this: If I wanted to play a game where you don't play as much as in Eve, I'd just go play Progress Quest (www.progressquest.com). I mean, people always talk about how, once you invest the very large amount of time needed, that it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, etc. Even if this was true (which I doubt), I'd rather go play something where I can enjoy myself at least most of the time that is spent just to get to the equivalent of level 60 in WoW, or what have you.

But really that's true of any MMO, most folks I see playing WoW are just playing acquisition simulator, which is a shame because WoW has one of the best, if not Best Back story’s out there. The difference with WoW is it’s a load and go game, and that's awesome, it's just some folks prefer games that are a bit more complex.

[OrangePulp]

The issue has nothing to do with complexity. It's the fact that there's so little playing involved. In WoW, (as with almost every other MMO out there, excluding this one), you actually have to be there, and control your character, to gain xp and get items and whatnot. In EvE, all you have to do is have an account, and occasionally log in to distribute skill points and whatnot. It's just so... lame.

[balamoor]

The issue has nothing to do with complexity. It's the fact that there's so little playing involved. In WoW, (as with almost every other MMO out there, excluding this one), you actually have to be there, and control your character, to gain xp and get items and whatnot. In EvE, all you have to do is have an account, and occasionally log in to distribute skill points and whatnot. It's just so... lame.

Wow... you must have played a different game than I have been playing for nearly three years. :cool: I mean yeah you can play it that way just like you really only have to log into WoW when your Mule is full and you have to sell at the AH.... yeah I know guys that watch Family guy and use a drinking bird to press thier Raid macros in WoW too....doesn’t mean that's what the game is like.

Most of the folks I know in EvE are usually at the keyboard, either trying to get the upper hand on a Rival or trying to form an alliance that will benefit them. To excel at the game you can't play in a vacuum, if you do then yeah it is lame, but that holds true for any MMO.

[Savok]

What I love most about EVE is that most assholes are too stupid to actually enjoy the game and therefore don't bother me with their cretinism while I'm playing, that should be a bullet point on the back of the box.

EVE has seen a lot of free updates and a lot of community love, typical of the jackasses we have here to ignore that.

[captainstrombosis]

Most of the complaints in this thread are directly related to time spent. I understand that the time involved is daunting, so this game certainly isn't for everyone. If you are one of the people that are not willing to invest the time required, move on and play a different MMO. It's just a drastically different game than most of the MMO's out there, which is the reason why I love it so much.

As for SWG, EvE isn't horribly bugged and bland. It's common to see 10 different types of capitol ships and dozens of different types of smaller ships when you go into fleet PvP in Eve. In comparison to SWG, which was just hordes of compsite wearing melee classes. (My experience is dated, but so is most everyones because the game drove everyone off.) EvE pvp is very involved if you want to be decent at it. Also the loss of your ship and it's items is such an adrenaline booster. Every fight could cost you tons of work. This might not be fun for everyone, however it is quite a thrill for me.

I happened to like the concept behind SWG, and stuck it out for nearly a year. However the bugs were just too much to overcome. Commando and Bounty Hunter were both completely broken for half a year and when they finally fixed them, both were useless for PvP. I don't mind certain classes having an advantage or disadvantage. I just couln't stand how useless the two classes were with Composite the way it was.

[J Arcane]

I adored EVE when I played it. It plays right into my fantasies of beign a space freighter captain.

It's a great game when you just want to relax. Pop in, fire up the kickass ambient soundtrack, and just cruise around through space.

The pace is slow, but that's what I liked about it. It was very refreshing comign from so many more fast paced games.

I love WoW and EVE both, but they are entirely different games in every respect, and comparing the two is nonsense.

[balamoor]

What I love most about EVE is that most assholes are too stupid to actually enjoy the game and therefore don't bother me with their cretinism while I'm playing, that should be a bullet point on the back of the box.

EVE has seen a lot of free updates and a lot of community love, typical of the jackasses we have here to ignore that.


Well I tried to be a bit more diplomatic about it considering the fragile egos of certain fanbois, but yeah your right. :D

But you may want to replace the word enjoy with the word understand. :rolleyes:

[J Arcane]

Eh. I found the general chat spaces in EVE to be no less full of idiots than any other game.

And EVE, like any other game with non-voluntary PVP, is full of it's fair share of griefer and ganker gangs.

[captainstrombosis]

And EVE, like any other game with non-voluntary PVP, is full of it's fair share of griefer and ganker gangs.

That's a designed part of the game. Being a pirate is one of the most fun things in any game I have ever played ;)

[Savok]

Best part about EVE is that it refuses to try and cater to everyone, no "lowest common denominator" shit here. You don't like it, that's fine, it's not for you, but if you can't respect the fantastic job they've done, then you're what's wrong with the industry at large. The only company you'll ever truely respect is Electronic Arts, hope you like EA Trax more then I do.

[Draft]

What I love most about EVE is that most assholes are too stupid to actually enjoy the game and therefore don't bother me with their cretinism while I'm playing, that should be a bullet point on the back of the box.

EVE has seen a lot of free updates and a lot of community love, typical of the jackasses we have here to ignore that.lol, ironic much? Could replace the word EVE with RAID and you'd have a typical World of Warcraft forum post.

[hotdrop]

I think the game was a good idea just not a fan of the time based levling system as your charector is completely worthless for at least a month and then simi worthless for 4-8 months after. If it wasnt for that system I would probably be still playing it

[balamoor]

That's a designed part of the game. Being a pirate is one of the most fun things in any game I have ever played ;)


Best time I have ever had in a game period, was getting ambushed by pirates then watching as the rest of my combine dropped out of warp :D No we didn't destroy all of them, but we did take everything they owned.

[captainstrombosis]

Best time I have ever had in a game period, was getting ambushed by pirates then watching as the rest of my combine dropped out of warp :D No we didn't destroy all of them, but we did take everything they owned.

Haha, I used to roam curse with a couple friends in the begining. After a few months of succesful pirating we jumped a freighter... as 10 or so battleships dropped in. Was the best damn fun.

[Royal Fool]

What I love most about EVE is that most assholes are too stupid to actually enjoy the game and therefore don't bother me with their cretinism while I'm playing, that should be a bullet point on the back of the box.

EVE has seen a lot of free updates and a lot of community love, typical of the jackasses we have here to ignore that.
Best part about EVE is that it refuses to try and cater to everyone, no "lowest common denominator" shit here. You don't like it, that's fine, it's not for you, but if you can't respect the fantastic job they've done, then you're what's wrong with the industry at large. The only company you'll ever truely respect is Electronic Arts, hope you like EA Trax more then I do.
I'm afraid the only asshole here is you, Savok.

[GrinR]

I read this awesome story (http://static.circa1984.com/the-big-scam.html) about a guy who ran the ultimate scam in EVE online and when I finished reading, I felt that I had gotten more fun out of that story than I ever could actually playing.

Read this story, and if you still want to play... well, hell, GO FOR IT!

[Sylver]

I read this awesome story (http://static.circa1984.com/the-big-scam.html) about a guy who ran the ultimate scam in EVE online and when I finished reading, I felt that I had gotten more fun out of that story than I ever could actually playing.

Read this story, and if you still want to play... well, hell, GO FOR IT!

That story is why I started playing. Even though it has been proved a fake.

If you want a real scam, read about This one. (http://eve.klaki.net/heist/) Much more time was spent in that, and it was much more damaging. ($16,500 USD!!?)

The first couple months of Eve are really shitty. Like, it's bad. Mining in low level ships and such while you train learning skills, logging in only to switch.

I got passed that though, and I have been rewarded with the best mmo game and pvping i've ever had.

Oh, and for those who think low skillpoint characters are useless, that's just silly. PvP is much more about experience than it is character XP. You can easily pirate in a frigate or cruiser during your 14 day trial and be very successful. You just need knowledge, and experience. Which can only be attained by doing it in the first place.

Never played WoW and don't want too, but I believe being successful in PvP in that game takes alot of grinding to level up and get all the stuff that everyone else already has. Bugger that. Correct me if i'm wrong though.

Edit - You don't have to group, but its much more rewarding when you do. Get a bunch of friends with you in T1 frigs and show the meaning of pain to a fully decked out battleship. You would only need 4-6 people.

Just don't take on a Dominix.

Another edit - I mean, in what other game, are people actually afraid to go into a lawless area? Now that, is cool. Real risk, real reward.

[J Arcane]

Never played WoW and don't want too, but I believe being successful in PvP in that game takes alot of grinding to level up and get all the stuff that everyone else already has. Bugger that. Correct me if i'm wrong though.

This is not correct. You can start running Battlegrounds at level 10, which takes a few hours to reach. And battlegrounds are partitioned based on level range.

There are some of the igher level characters who'll use their massive hordes of cash to twink out lower level characters for BGs, but gear isn't nearly so important as skill and strategy, which is why for all the BG twinking that goes on Alliance side on all the servers, Horde still kicks their ass constantly.

[Varsity]

The first couple months of Eve are really shitty. Like, it's bad. Mining in low level ships and such while you train learning skills, logging in only to switch.
One of the interesting developments mentioned in the article is the onset of player-created missions. I've often wondered while traversing the rim of empire space looking for human-placed orders to fill why there wasn't something done to make newer players useful for the corps somehow, to start bridging the gap between them. My idea had been to make a certain resource - perhaps something like personnel - provide a large bonus for player-owned stations, and make the resource most abundant in deep empire space as makes perfect sense.

CCP's solution seems a little more exploitable (everyone knows never to take Courier missions, and for good reason), but it could turn out well.

[balamoor]

but gear isn't nearly so important as skill and strategy, .

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Stop my sides hurt..... Guy; the developers have even admitted that BG was a gear centric aspect of the game, that's why the sweeping changes in BC, I think Socketed items will go a long way to close the gap, then it will be more of a game of skill than gear.

[balamoor]

One of the interesting developments mentioned in the article is the onset of player-created missions. I've often wondered while traversing the rim of empire space looking for human-placed orders to fill why there wasn't something done to make newer players useful for the corps somehow, to start bridging the gap between them. My idea had been to make a certain resource - perhaps something like personnel - provide a large bonus for player-owned stations, and make the resource most abundant in deep empire space as makes perfect sense.

CCP's solution seems a little more exploitable (everyone knows never to take Courier missions, and for good reason), but it could turn out well.

Yep my group is looking forward to this, as Immersive as EvE is, I can only imagine the depth that will lend to the overall game. As far as exploitable naaa the missions will have limits dependant on ones skill sets; I mean it’s not like you can create a mission to pick up a fully deck out Dom or anything.

[J Arcane]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Stop my sides hurt..... Guy; the developers have even admitted that BG was a gear centric aspect of the game, that's why the sweeping changes in BC, I think Socketed items will go a long way to close the gap, then it will be more of a game of skill than gear.
Which is still bollocks. Gear means shit in BGs. I did great with my hunter clear up to when I stopped my account at 40, and I had utter crap gear, because I hated doing instance runs. to the extent that when I finally got round to running Razorfen Kraul a good 8 levels after I should have, I was still rolling need on trash green drops.

But, as I said, I did fine in BGs. Great in fact. And I did a hell of a lot of them, because WSG is more addictive than crack, and AB is like a kickass cross between Battlefield and Warcraft.

Good times. I need to start doing more BGs with my new 'lock.

[Royal Fool]

I mean, in what other game, are people actually afraid to go into a lawless area? Now that, is cool. Real risk, real reward.
Sort of like playing hardcore mode in Diablo II, heh. I agree, it's a pretty unique factor, but most players dislike risk or losing stuff they've earned, which is why permadeath MMOs can't really become very successful.

Eve isn't all bad, but there is grinding involved, especially for beginners like you said (unless you happen to know nice players that have tons of money to give you, and even then you have to grind your skills).

[ElPresidente]

Grinding? GRINDING? Varsity said early on that if you're grinding you're doing it wrong. And that's true. This isn't a game about questing or blowing up enemies to level your ship. It is about getting involved in the world itself. Getting involved in the RP, becoming imaginative and creating your own goals. EVE is less of a structured experience and more of a sandbox title. Now that isn't for everyone but if you are comparing it to the more traditional MMO scene you are truely missing the point.

Yes there are skill limitations on certain ships and items, etc but in the right group everyone can have a role to play assuming you want to go down the combat route. Skills in EVE do not have has marked an impact on your ability to perform as in games like WoW.

Eve is one of the few grind deficient MMOs out there. What it does demand though is time, much more time than WoW or CoV, etc. Unfortunately I don't have that time anymore and I now play WoW for my MMO kicks. Unfortunately it doesn't scratch my itch in the way EVE did, but by the same token EVE does not scratch my itch in the way WoW does.

It is because they are totally different games. As I said, if you think of it in terms of grinding you have totally missed the point.

Most of the folks I know in EvE are usually at the keyboard, either trying to get the upper hand on a Rival or trying to form an alliance that will benefit them. To excel at the game you can't play in a vacuum, if you do then yeah it is lame, but that holds true for any MMO.

QFT. Can't win at the game of politics (and there is a lot of politics in EVE) if you're never speaking to other people. EVE is very much a game of relationships among other things.

What I love most about EVE is that most assholes are too stupid to actually enjoy the game and therefore don't bother me with their cretinism while I'm playing, that should be a bullet point on the back of the box.

EVE has seen a lot of free updates and a lot of community love, typical of the jackasses we have here to ignore that.

QFT. Best damned player community that I've ever encountered.

[niakori]

Well, all I can add is that mmorpg.com is having a 60 day account contest for Eve. If you want to try and and if you think you're lucky....

[Sylver]

My idea had been to make a certain resource - perhaps something like personnel - provide a large bonus for player-owned stations, and make the resource most abundant in deep empire space as makes perfect sense.

CCP's solution seems a little more exploitable (everyone knows never to take Courier missions, and for good reason), but it could turn out well.

Ugh, personnel? Sorry, but that would be even more work. I don't think you have any idea what goes into maintaining empires already.

To keep sovereignity, you need control towers. Control towers need fuel to stay online. This fuel comes from refined ice. Ice is either mined by corp miners who love to mine (And there are people who love to mine) or purchased in empire. That which is purchased in empire needs to be brought back to 0.0, in a frieghter run. This frieghter run needs freighter pilots, escort pilots in battleships, (more than 35 preferabbly, seen it get up to 200 in big jobs) and a scout squad to warn of any enemy movements. These freighter runs aren't constant though, maybe once or twice in 2-3 months does one really need to get involved. (I've never been on one, please don't tell my Corp!)

After fuel is delivered to one central point, it still needs to be taken to the control towers themselves. And in space like ASCN, there are lots of these control towers. Lots. I have nothing but respect for those directors who manage POS's.


and even then you have to grind your skills).

There is no skill grinding.



Grinding? GRINDING? Varsity said early on that if you're grinding you're doing it wrong. And that's true. This isn't a game about questing or blowing up enemies to level your ship. It is about getting involved in the world itself. Getting involved in the RP, becoming imaginative and creating your own goals. EVE is less of a structured experience and more of a sandbox title. Now that isn't for everyone but if you are comparing it to the more traditional MMO scene you are truely missing the point.




QFT. Best damned player community that I've ever encountered.

Sorry, but there is grinding. It's completely by choice however, you don't need to do it.

It's not in the form of skill progression, it's in the form of ISK acquisition. I've made a billion plus ISK from ratting, which is killing NPC battleships in 0.0 for their bounties and refinable loot. (You probably know this, this is just so others know) It takes a while to make a billion off of this, however if you get really lucky, you can get an officer spawn and make billions all in the time it takes you to blow up that officer.

Killing NPC's over and over again is what I think defines grinding. It's just for money though, you dont need to do it. There are ALOT of other ways to make money.

[ElPresidente]

Sorry, you're are exactly right. There is grinding but it is optional. I guess when I think of grinding I think of it being a forced aspect of gameplay simply due to its negative connotations.

And screw this thread for making me contemplate the resurrection of my character. :(

;)

[Royal Fool]

I suppose generating ISK isn't considered grinding then.

[UnderHero5]

Well, you NEED ISK to progress in EvE... and you need to grind in one form or another to get those unless you get lucky have have friends in high places.

I played EvE for about 7 months total and finally stopped because I just got bored with the grind for ISK. You're either mining constantly or killing rats... either way, you're grinding.

It can get better if you join a large, well organized corp with a lot of assets. They can lend/share money with you... but that doesn't always happen. If you're playing on your own or with a new corp, you're in for a grind. Period.

Don't get me wrong, EvE is a cool game... but just because some one doesn't like it doesn't mean they don't understand it. You EvE players need to step off your high horses and realise that the game isn't for everyone. Don't think you're "smarter" than those who don't like it. People play games for different reasons. People find fun in different things.

[ElPresidente]

I suppose generating ISK isn't considered grinding then.

Did you read Sylver's post?

And no, there are ways to make money that do not involve killing rats or constant mining.

I used to do vulture runs which was using light ships to race through 0 sec space to sites of battles and effectively pick the flesh off the bones off old battles before getting blasted by hostiles in the area.

Ransoming other players in PvP.

Playing the market.

Running trade routes.

And these are some of the more mundane methods of making money. If you don't want to be ingenious then you will effectively grind yourway through mining or npc killing to make your cash but that is not the only way to do it.

For the record I only mined once in my time in EVE and that was during the tutorial, never did it since.

Don't get me wrong, EvE is a cool game... but just because some one doesn't like it doesn't mean they don't understand it. You EvE players need to step off your high horses and realise that the game isn't for everyone. Don't think you're "smarter" than those who don't like it. People play games for different reasons. People find fun in different things.

I think you'll find most EVE players are well aware it isn't a game for everyone. It is when others misrepresent the gameplay and call it shit as a result that these EVE threads end up degenerating into arguments. It isn't like MMOs yet it is compared to games like WoW constantly. It is just as silly as comparing A Tale in the Desert to WoW.

[captainstrombosis]

Don't get me wrong, EvE is a cool game... but just because some one doesn't like it doesn't mean they don't understand it. You EvE players need to step off your high horses and realise that the game isn't for everyone. Don't think you're "smarter" than those who don't like it. People play games for different reasons. People find fun in different things.

Uhm, change "EvE players" to "Savok" because he's the only one insulting people that I can remember. Most everyone else has said it's not for everyone... So remove yourself from that horse ;)

There is some grinding. However, much less in my experience than other games. It's all about choices. You can play EvE as a grindfest. However, you don't have too. It's your own choice. Not the devs fault you chose to use that route.

[GrinR]

I stick by my guns on this - reading that scam story gives all the excitement and fear anyone needs, without the exorbitant expendature of time.

Hell, I tried to get through the TUTORIAL and didn't get halfway in under an hour. No thanks, I have a life.


(and Dead Rising, Oblivion, City of Heroes, GW, etc.)

[captainstrombosis]

I stick by my guns on this - reading that scam story gives all the excitement and fear anyone needs, without the exorbitant expendature of time.

Hell, I tried to get through the TUTORIAL and didn't get halfway in under an hour. No thanks, I have a life.


(and Dead Rising, Oblivion, City of Heroes, GW, etc.)

Funny that you say that. Of all the MMO's I have played (Havn't tried City of heroes) EvE is the most forgiving on time because you don't have to be there to level. You can then plan around your free time to make ISK.

[ElPresidente]

Hell, I tried to get through the TUTORIAL and didn't get halfway in under an hour. No thanks, I have a life.

You so can't make that kind of comment posting on a games forum. It sounds like denial. :p ;)

Funny that you say that. Of all the MMO's I have played (Havn't tried City of heroes) EvE is the most forgiving on time because you don't have to be there to level. You can then plan around your free time to make ISK.

I disagree. I think it is one of the most demanding on time. If you do play it like a traditional MMO then it isn't so bad, but as we've all pointed out, EVE isn't really fun played in that manner. Unfortunately all the interesting aspects of the game take a lot of time.

I can jump into WoW (as I just did then) and complete a quest or two in a half hours worth of gameplay and have made some real progress. In EVE to have achieved anything of value I would need to spend much more time. Sure I could do a dead space run in the same amount of time but the impact of having done that is fairly inconsequential.

WoW, CoV/CoH, etc are more casual in the whole you can jump in jump out. EVE is not so forgiving as far as I'm concerned.

[Sylver]

Don't get me wrong, EvE is a cool game... but just because some one doesn't like it doesn't mean they don't understand it. You EvE players need to step off your high horses and realise that the game isn't for everyone. Don't think you're "smarter" than those who don't like it. People play games for different reasons. People find fun in different things.

Yes, and we find fun in EvE.

That the game isn't for everyone is well known. It's usually the first thing I say in regards to EvE, but I neglected to do that here. You'll be sitting there in your brand spanking new cruiser that you payed all your money for, happily chugging along, and some bully will come along and start shooting at you.

You'll feel the pressure as you frantically right click anywhere in space, anywhere your mouse can get too, and warp to something, anything. Your ship refuses to go anywhere. With a sinking feeling, you realise you've been scrambled. Adrenaline kicks in. Im altogether serious when I say that you may begin to sweat or tremble.

But that's losing a ship. Killing another is altogether more satisfying. The first time I killed another ship my arm cramped up with all the excitement. Seeing that blue flash was extremely satisfying. Naturally these feelings go away as you get more experience, but it's pretty unanimous that almost everyone feels this way the first time they experience PvP in EvE.

Actually, I still get a bit nervous when I attack someone. Even if I know i'm going to win. It's a fluttery feeling.

And that's only part of what makes it so great.

[GrinR]

You so can't make that kind of comment posting on a games forum. It sounds like denial. :p ;)

I'm well known enough that I don't have to mince words, really. Let's say that I have 30 hours of free time each week, that's 4 hours a workday and 10 hours over the weekend - generous, no?

In that 30 hours, I can complete Dead Rising - maybe twice. Or, I can get to level 30+ in WoW. I can get to somewhere around 20 in City of Heroes.

And that's just one week.

How far am I going to get in EVE?

[Sylver]

I'm well known enough that I don't have to mince words, really. Let's say that I have 30 hours of free time each week, that's 4 hours a workday and 10 hours over the weekend - generous, no?

In that 30 hours, I can complete Dead Rising - maybe twice. Or, I can get to level 30+ in WoW. I can get to somewhere around 20 in City of Heroes.

And that's just one week.

How far am I going to get in EVE?


Not very far.

But, EvE has no endgame. How long are you going to be playing those above titles? People have played Eve for 3 years and still love it. Plus, expansions are free. And they add even more things.

[GrinR]

Not very far.

But, EvE has no endgame. How long are you going to be playing those above titles? People have played Eve for 3 years and still love it. Plus, expansions are free. And they add even more things.

And that is the extreme amount of time. 30 hours? I wish! It's more like half that. CoH has no endgame either, nor does WoW or GW. Obviously MOGs are games you play for a long, long time. My point is that if I have a set amount of time in my life for gaming, I'm not going to pick a game that takes hours just to get through the TUTORIAL. A tutorial that long and complex is what I would call "fair warning."

[Savok]

lol, ironic much? Could replace the word EVE with RAID and you'd have a typical World of Warcraft forum post.
Yeah, sure, if you ignore the fact raiding in WoW takes zero thought unless you're the leader, in which case you're dealing with 39 clueless fuckwits and want to kill yourself by the end. Even then, it's the exact same fight every god damn time you go in.

I'm afraid the only asshole here is you, Savok.
I'm an asshole to assholes, and I love every second of it.

Hell, I tried to get through the TUTORIAL and didn't get halfway in under an hour.
Took me 4 hours first time through.

[niakori]

Um, Newsflash!
Eve isn't for casual players. Don't assume it is, if you are a casual player, don't assume it's for you. Over.

[Varsity]

Ugh, personnel? Sorry, but that would be even more work. I don't think you have any idea what goes into maintaining empires already.
Hey, it was just a suggestion. :p The idea still stands.

[Sylver]

And that is the extreme amount of time. 30 hours? I wish! It's more like half that. CoH has no endgame either, nor does WoW or GW. Obviously MOGs are games you play for a long, long time. My point is that if I have a set amount of time in my life for gaming, I'm not going to pick a game that takes hours just to get through the TUTORIAL. A tutorial that long and complex is what I would call "fair warning."


That's nice. I don't know why you're still in this thread. Point being, you would rather level your Arch Goblin Semenweaver, while I would rather participate in fleet battles.

The tutorial only took me an hour to get through, so I don't know what you're talking about in that respect.

Oh, and a tutorial that "Long and Complex" is what I would call a "Filter."

[Zeal]

This is the best online game I've played, but the learning curve and dedication required make it almost impossible to play. I've heard some of the higher level skills take a week (real world time) to learn.

The combat system also lags and can become a bit repetitive.

Other than that, easily better than WoW and has the best music and graphics ever.

I also like how the story and mythology surrounding the game is as deep as the Bible or some shit.

[J Arcane]

Eh. If you pay attention to the way the game is structured, the "tutorial" in WoW is a good 10-20 levels long.

You don't even get the most defining parts of your class until 10, and it'll be as late as 20 before you've got it down pat enoguh to survive throguh the rest of the game.

It's just very well designed and subtly constructed, so that you don't really realize that the game is essentially teaching itself to you by example and experimentation. The Blizzard guys are geniuses that way, and it's one of the things I really liked about WoW.

I didn't have any problem with the "tutorial" stage of EVE either. Everything seemed rather intuitive to me. Once you start getting into tweaking your ship, or playing the markets, it gets a bit more number-crunchy, but the basic gameplay should be painfully obvious to anyone capable of right clicking on their desktop.

[inflamez]

I played Eve for a few months, and although I liked the economy simulation, the space battles, the very complex skill system, etc. there was ONE big let down. Strange enough, no one has mentioned it so far: You are controlling your spaceship with your mouse, point & click style. If they ever decide to support direct joystick controls (see X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter), I will reactivate my subscribtion.

[GrinR]

That's nice. I don't know why you're still in this thread. Point being, you would rather level your Arch Goblin Semenweaver, while I would rather participate in fleet battles.

The tutorial only took me an hour to get through, so I don't know what you're talking about in that respect.

Oh, and a tutorial that "Long and Complex" is what I would call a "Filter."

No, surprisingly you've missed my point entirely. I would rather get rewarded for my game-time as rapidly as possible within the constraints of a challenge-reward cycle suitable for someone of my gaming caliber.

The tutorial, for myself and for everyone I know who's tried this, barring you of course, takes at least 2 hours to go through if you hope to garner any understanding of what it's trying to teach. Perhaps you are simply smarter than me - good for you - back here in my world, it's a tough climb to get to the start of the game.

Naturally, you might call that a filter. You can assume that my posting in this thread is a pre-filter for that filter, one that assists other stupid, lazy people like me from making the mistake of getting hyped and buying into the idea it's a fun space romp when it's not. Or rather, it is if you're smart enough and you have oodles of time on your hands.

[Varsity]

No, surprisingly you've missed my point entirely. I would rather get rewarded for my game-time as rapidly as possible within the constraints of a challenge-reward cycle suitable for someone of my gaming caliber.
I don't think he has at all - in fact I think you are the one guilty of that. I think his point is that you are simply looking for something different, which you have just agreed with. EVE is very much for people who appreciate putting effort and thought into things over long periods of time.

[Savok]

Stupidity comes not from whether you can enjoy the game, it's when you can't respect what the game is and that it's not made for everyone.

[Sylver]

No, surprisingly you've missed my point entirely. I would rather get rewarded for my game-time as rapidly as possible within the constraints of a challenge-reward cycle suitable for someone of my gaming caliber.

Someone already pointed it out, but it would seem that you missed the part where I said:
Point being, you would rather level your Arch Goblin Semenweaver, while I would rather participate in fleet battles.

Don't get me wrong, I like the instant reward as much as anyone else. But it's nice to have a broader range. You could say, if you really want to use the term gaming caliber, that i'm the .50 to your .22.

I find that term absolutely ridiculous by the way, just in case you did not catch the emphasis with my helpful italics.




The tutorial, for myself and for everyone I know who's tried this, barring you of course, takes at least 2 hours to go through if you hope to garner any understanding of what it's trying to teach. Perhaps you are simply smarter than me - good for you - back here in my world, it's a tough climb to get to the start of the game.

It is quite possible that the tutorial has been lengthened and expanded to cover more areas since I began to play.

Over in my world of course, right clicking or travelling to an object is not very difficult. Traveling to the next stage of the tutorial is no more time consuming than running across a field to the next stage of monster slaying.

Focusing on the tutorial for your attacks doesn't make much sense.


Naturally, you might call that a filter. You can assume that my posting in this thread is a pre-filter for that filter, one that assists other stupid, lazy people like me from making the mistake of getting hyped and buying into the idea it's a fun space romp when it's not. Or rather, it is if you're smart enough and you have oodles of time on your hands.

I think it's a fun space romp.

But that is only a difference in our gaming caliber, not a difference in intellect.

[BigJonno]

Hmm, interesting thread, though I wish certain people would stop insulting everyone who disagrees with them. It seems that everything good I've heard about EVE revolves around the players, rather than the game itself. All the complaints (including my own) revolve around shitty game design. It seems the best thing they've done is stick to their guns and let their players get on with things. It makes me sad for SWG, 'cause it makes me think of what could've been if they didn't listen to the very vocal arseholes who just didn't get it.

[Sylver]

Hmm, interesting thread, though I wish certain people would stop insulting everyone who disagrees with them.

Most threads about EvE seem to go this way. It's unfortunate, but I believe it has to do with the fact that players of the game resent it being bashed when they have time and effort invested in it.

[Savok]

Most threads about EvE seem to go this way. It's unfortunate, but I believe it has to do with the fact that players of the game resent it being bashed when they have time and effort invested in it.
I resent people bashing something done extremely well, simply because they don't like it. I don't like racing games, but I can respect one that's done really well and that people enjoy, I don't sit there and abuse everyone involved simply because my tastes don't go that way.

Hell, they don't even want 6 million assholes, part of EVE's greatness is having only the one server and they're desperate to keep it that way.

[GrinR]

Someone already pointed it out, but it would seem that you missed the part where I said:Originally Posted by Sylver
Point being, you would rather level your Arch Goblin Semenweaver, while I would rather participate in fleet battles.

I got that part. It describes two different milieus, not two different gameplay types. As such it's a faulty comparison because I enjoy both of those milieus, I merely require that they be enjoyable by me to play.

Don't get me wrong, I like the instant reward as much as anyone else. But it's nice to have a broader range. You could say, if you really want to use the term gaming caliber, that i'm the .50 to your .22.

I find that term absolutely ridiculous by the way, just in case you did not catch the emphasis with my helpful italics.

I'm not certain where the chip on your shoulder came from, but you again misinterperet my describing how I prefer things as insulting how you prefer things. Is it suitable for you to say that we might have different gaming requirements, and describing those differences might be a measure lacking in putting one above the other? So, perhaps "gaming skill level" is more to your taste, then?

Focusing on the tutorial for your attacks doesn't make much sense.

I am not attacking EVE. I am sharing my views on the game, and including the reasons I have those views, something you apparently take offense to.

I think it's a fun space romp.

Excellent. I'm glad you enjoy it.

Is it alright with you if I think it's a dull, dragging chore of a space economy sim? Can you stand a difference of opinion?

[OrangePulp]

I resent people bashing something done extremely well, simply because they don't like it. I don't like racing games, but I can respect one that's done really well and that people enjoy, I don't sit there and abuse everyone involved simply because my tastes don't go that way.

You seem to be mistaking your opinion about the quality of the game as fact. It's not a fact. It's just your goddamn opinion. Get over yourself. You think the game is done extremly well? I think it's a bore-fest. I don't see why you couldn't get the same amount of enjoyment with a much smaller time investment. In my mind, that means the game has shitty design. See how that works? A difference of opinion.

EDIT: Taking it further, let's look at your example of racing games. Take Gran Turismo 4. It intends to be a very accurate racing simulator, of sorts. I seem to remember some promo about it, talking about how racing a car around Cote d'Azure in GT4 came to within a few hundredths of a second of a real life driver taking that car around the real life track. Looking at that example, it would seem that it's a very well done simulator.

To take a different perspective of it, go to an episode of Top Gear (some car show a friend of mine is obsessed with; the episode in question is the only one I've actually seen). The host drives a Honda NSX around Laguna Seca in game. Then, he tries to match his time in real life, on the real track with the real car. He can't, in great part because the way he tackled the corkscrew turn was very aggressive, in game, (his words) and in real life he himself couldn't handle the g forces of that approach. Based on that example, one could say it isn't a very accurate simulator at all.

[ElPresidente]

I'm well known enough that I don't have to mince words, really. Let's say that I have 30 hours of free time each week, that's 4 hours a workday and 10 hours over the weekend - generous, no?

In that 30 hours, I can complete Dead Rising - maybe twice. Or, I can get to level 30+ in WoW. I can get to somewhere around 20 in City of Heroes.

And that's just one week.

How far am I going to get in EVE?

The two emoticons were meant to indicate that I was making a joke about gamers saying they have a life. I have a life too but it doesn't make it sound any less like denial when your chatting amongst the passionate. :D

You'll note in that very same post I said "I disagree. I think it is one of the most demanding on time." I had to cancel my EVE subscription because my lifestyle couldn't accommodate it. I agree, unless you have time to spare EVE is no good. I love it but I can't play it because of this fact. There's no argument here mate. :)

This is the best online game I've played, but the learning curve and dedication required make it almost impossible to play. I've heard some of the higher level skills take a week (real world time) to learn.

Stuff that, I've had skills take over a month. A week is nothing. :P

[Sylver]

I got that part. It describes two different milieus, not two different gameplay types. As such it's a faulty comparison because I enjoy both of those milieus, I merely require that they be enjoyable by me to play.

I did intend for it to describe two different gameplay types. Slaying monsters is different gameplay than blowing up ships, in my opinion.



I'm not certain where the chip on your shoulder came from, but you again misinterperet my describing how I prefer things as insulting how you prefer things. Is it suitable for you to say that we might have different gaming requirements, and describing those differences might be a measure lacking in putting one above the other? So, perhaps "gaming skill level" is more to your taste, then?

I am not attacking EVE. I am sharing my views on the game, and including the reasons I have those views, something you apparently take offense to.

Ones "gaming skill level" is not a pre-requisite for the enjoyment of games. It has nothing to do with skill or caliber or anything of the sort, we just have different tastes.

Your negative opinon does constitute an attack, specifically calling the tutorial 'Fair warning' about what you think to be a 'boring game'. I don't know about you, but these words do have negative meanings.

If you were called boring by someone, that would be their opinion. But it is also a verbal attack.

I don't mean to take offense to it, because I don't, (much). I am merely responding to your sarcasm and veiled hints that you are a better gamer, or of a higher caliber, simply because you do not like a game or a certain gamestyle does not appeal to you. If this was not what you intended, I apologise.



Excellent. I'm glad you enjoy it.

Is it alright with you if I think it's a dull, dragging chore of a space economy sim? Can you standa difference of opinion?

Fine by me.

My gripe comes from you trying to warn away other people. And you are trying to do so, as you have stated with your "Pre-filter for that filter."

[Savok]

You seem to be mistaking your opinion about the quality of the game as fact. It's not a fact. It's just your goddamn opinion. Get over yourself. You think the game is done extremly well? I think it's a bore-fest. I don't see why you couldn't get the same amount of enjoyment with a much smaller time investment. In my mind, that means the game has shitty design. See how that works? A difference of opinion.
Let me repeat myself

It's. Not. For. You