Huge Changes to WoW End-game in Burning Crusade [Archive]

Draft

08-11-2006, 07:20 PM

Or should I say ... smaller changes??? (http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?cId=3152830)

Molten Core. Blackwing Lair. The Temple of Ahn'Qiraj. Naxxramas Necropolis. And nothing else. Looking ahead to Blizzard's expansion for World of Warcraft, Burning Crusade, the aforementioned instanced raids will be the last of Blizzard's 40-man raid content. In Burning Crusade, end game raiding (which occupies WoW's max level players) will be done in groups of 25 or 10. Illidan's Black Temple, the most challenging raid instance that will appear in Burning Crusade (at release), has a 25-player limit.
I'm sure some of you will still find something to complain about, however.

Thanks to The Continental for a similar submission.

SexualChoc

08-11-2006, 07:29 PM

Holy crap. That's.... stupid. At least with Illidan. 25 man 70 = 40 man 60? Illidan was meant to be the hardest boss in game. I would of at least hoped that would be 40. It's proof that Bliz knows how hard it is to get 40 men ready for raids. That could cut out entire classes from raids.

The Continental

08-11-2006, 07:32 PM

Take a look at the PvP changes!
Player vs. player is also getting a rather large makeover in the expansion. The honor system is being changed around so that honor gained is used like a currency to purchase goods. There will be no more ranks in the honor system but those that have been participating will be able to keep anything they've earned to date including titles and equipment. Otherwise it's effectively being reset. The hope is also to encourage players to move between battlegrounds by having some equipment cost basic honor along with specific honor won in different locations.

Competitive PvP will include an arena system. Arena will be a competitive ladder where teams of players will be able to fight amongst themselves in a sporting environment. At this point, Blizzard is planning to include 2v2, 3v3, and 5v5 matches. Characters will be able to compete on one team from each division. Each team will also allow for double the number of players on the roster of each team to serve as substitutes if someone is gone for a while or doesn't feel like participating because he or she is a big chicken. One of the particularly cool things about this system is that players will actually be able to fight against other teams in their own faction. Alliance and Horde players can finally find out who the best players are on each side of the conflict. Individual teams will still have to consist of players in the same faction but competitions should be more interesting with some inter-faction rivalries.

Outdoor world PvP will still be available as well and will be enhanced as it's started to be with recent patches. All of the zones in Burning Crusade will include objective PvP areas. One of those was in a lush green zone we had our first chance to get a look at today called Nagrand. Smack in the middle of the zone is a neutral town that can be captured for the Horde or Alliance. The owner of the town will have access to merchants that have items unavailable anywhere else along with some other bonuses.
Between that and getting rid of the massive raids, it really looks like Blizzard is listening to the discontented player base. Color me impressed... even though I'm still not going back. ;)

Camel

08-11-2006, 07:41 PM

Interesting! It seemed to me that way too many 40 man instances were released in a small time (or maybe not, but I remember when killing Ragnaros was a huge deal, then eventually BWL and AQ came out and people were flying through, and then BOOM here comes Naxxramas, so it seemed to me like it was a short amount of time...I took a break in between the two times I played WoW so my view could be skewed), so it's cool to go back to smaller caps of people. Personally I absolutely loved Dire Maul, more than any other place in the game, and that was only 5 people, so hopefully the idea of less is more continues in the expansion. It seems to me that Burning Crusade will be a pretty cool expansion and make the game more fun, but I QUIT dammit! For good!!!

Also, I can't wait to see the bitching that comes out of the pvp changes, especially for those currently in the grind to obtain rank 14. Even if the new system ends up being far greater, if there's one thing WoW taught me it's that people are nuts and will complain about ANYTHING! Even more than real life!

EDIT: Oh man, I did a quick check of the WoW forums (nothing curbs those urges to resubscribe faster!!) and the whining is already in full effect (as is some positive discussion).

Citizen Philip

08-11-2006, 07:53 PM

I am pleased with these changes. I may consider playing again, but, I require more pvp details.

BleedTheFreak

08-11-2006, 07:56 PM

I am pleased with these changes. I may consider playing again, but, I require more pvp details.

It seems like a good change to me, as well.

CannibalKid

08-11-2006, 07:57 PM

I'm very paranoid about world PVP in WoW. Every MMO has an issue with the newest content wanted to be seen and experienced by the player base, and since WoW has a huge number of players at max level, a large portion of the server will turn up to participate in PVP.

What will result is uncoordinated zerging of unmeasurable magnitude. And if i understand the PVP changes correctly, honor can be spent, which would reinforce this behavior because it will be seen as the only reliable way for casual players to earn epics. And lets not forget the lag that will occur. Most servers aren't that great in this department now, and with the old accounts logging back in to check out the Burning Crusade content it'll probably bring back the old queues. I'm very skeptical that world pvp at the same time as the launch of a new Expansion is what will make WoW a fun game.

gzsfrk

08-11-2006, 07:59 PM

Can't fault Blizzard for doing what the vast majority of their player base wanted. As it stands now, probably 90% plus (don't ask me for a source; that's just a gut estimate) never even fight Onyxia due to the hassles involved in getting a 40-man raid together, let alone the end-fights in BWL, AQ, or Naxx. It's a good move, imo.

Now, if they would just throw Tigole and Furor both out on their asses, I might even re-up my subscription for a while.

TheDevilUno

08-11-2006, 08:29 PM

holy crap blizz must be losing lots of customers for this to happen!!!! Tehdoom

digitalErich

08-11-2006, 08:31 PM

Hmm, I never thought I'd be temped to jump back into WoW, but this announcement has me interested. I need some more info before I sign my life over again.

rein

08-11-2006, 08:33 PM

This sounds like the right direction. I wonder if they are starting to see a lot of people leave.

I had planned on jumping back in for a while when Burning Crusade hit anyway just to check it out. Now it looks like I might stay a bit longer than I was expecting.

I know a lot of you are going to say that you will not go back, but you probably will. Maybe you should run out to your nearest GS/EB and reserve a copy just in case. :D

Eric_T_Cheng

08-11-2006, 08:36 PM

Can't fault Blizzard for doing what the vast majority of their player base wanted. As it stands now, probably 90% plus (don't ask me for a source; that's just a gut estimate) never even fight Onyxia due to the hassles involved in getting a 40-man raid together, let alone the end-fights in BWL, AQ, or Naxx. It's a good move, imo.

My guild GM sets up Onyxia and Molten Core PUGs all them time with his alt. People in small guilds, alts or guildless join these pugs for a chance to get epic drops.

Camel

08-11-2006, 08:39 PM

I know a lot of you are going to say that you will not go back, but you probably will. Maybe you should run out to your nearest GS/EB and reserve a copy just in case. :D
Heh, I won't lie, I put myself into this group at first, but now I think I legitimately won't ever go back (seriously, go read those forums! Curb your addiction! I'm here to help!!!). The game was awesome fun, but just thinking about all the drama I've seen in-game is enough to make me not want to go back. Being able to play as a horde paladin and check out all the new content would be fun for sure, but it's just not worth it to me to put up with all that old crap. That, and I am enjoying the bit of money I get to save each month, and to be perfectly honest I think it would be an absolute disaster for me if I started up again (I just started grad school, which is the reason I quit WoW for the second and FINAL! time).

Remember all you addicts...I'm here to help!!! :D If I can change...and you can change...EVERYBODY CAN CHANGE!

gzsfrk

08-11-2006, 08:41 PM

Wow... after reading the full article, I also see that they're given Paladins a snap taunt. Considering Tigole had previously said this would NEVER happen, along with the death of 40-mans, I take it as a positive sign that Blizz has at long last laid the smack down on that arrogant EQ-reject bastard.

Oh, and kudos to Shaman for getting Bloodlust come the patch as well--bout freaking time.

Zeal

08-11-2006, 08:45 PM

Illidan was meant to be the hardest boss in game.
Wait until you see Arthas in about a year from now.

Try every guild on a server fighting him at once.

Arthas: This is all you bring before me? I'm insulted.

ttoastt

08-11-2006, 08:51 PM

Considering Tigole had previously said this would NEVER happen, along with the death of 40-mans, I take it as a positive sign that Blizz has at long last laid the smack down on that arrogant EQ-reject bastard.
I remember seeing the discussion, they were saying that they wanted not to give the Paladin the same ability as a warrior, and instead to do something different. That's all nice and well, but what else is there? I'm sure the tankadins are happy

dotbomb

08-11-2006, 08:54 PM

Wait until you see Arthas in about a year from now.

Try every guild on a server fighting him at once.

Arthas: This is all you bring before me? I'm insulted.

Arthas will probably only be a 10 man raid instance at this rate.

It is too bad they created those huge 40 man raid instances in the first place. The time involved in getting a group together for the end game content killed the game for me. I will not be going back.

Royal Fool

08-11-2006, 09:12 PM

The 14 rank honor/reputation grind goes away but instead they implement a honor/points grind. Dunno about the raid changes, doesn't that just mean that the big guilds will have more members running around being jerks (as opposed to raiding) than usual?

StarGypsy

08-11-2006, 09:14 PM

When I left WoW, I deleted my characters. That really helps fight the temptation to go back later.

Zeal

08-11-2006, 09:16 PM

Arthas will probably only be a 10 man raid instance at this rate.

It is too bad they created those huge 40 man raid instances in the first place. The time involved in getting a group together for the end game content killed the game for me. I will not be going back.
I totally agree with this. Getting a group together for a raid or even an instance is like a game within a game. It's actually more challenging than the content itself and extremely frustrating.

I left for the longest time and just recently returned in preparation for the Burning Crusade. My relapse basically boiled down to curiosity.

Not to mention I literally threw my keyboard across the room once when I was ninjaed.

CannibalKid

08-11-2006, 09:24 PM

Since we're back on the old 40 man raid is too much bandwagon I'm going to go on a little bit of a rant.

I don't understand why 40 man raids are so difficult. I haven't been on one in over a year, and a lot of that is a combination of A.)They're boring, B.)Guilds are run by people who believe screaming at people is successful management, C.)Improper guild recruitment.

I'll focus on option C for the rest of my post here. A common problem I see is that guilds like to recruit strangers with the intention of getting people to raid the more fantastic content. Unfortunately, this recruitment is often times spamming the most global chat possible. Comments aside on the quality of the players recruited in this method, the biggest problem becomes recruiting people who are in a position to raid, without addressing concurrent attendance. So after recruiting all these people willing to raid, then finding out that many of them can't meet the raid time, there is pressure to change the time which is scheduled for people to raid, which usually loses the same amount of players because they can't make the new raid time, that you gain for changing the raid time.

This should really be addressed as though it were shifts at an office (might as well make it a work analogy, if you raid you probably have to spend the same time in a raid that you would working a part-time shift...). Why would you hire someone who can work a night time shift when you really need someone for a day time shift? If that person can't get a job working the night shift at one company, they should seriously consider finding a new job that offers night time positions.

More people would be pleased if people truly adknowledged the relationship of random players in MMOs. Players exist to fill chairs at an office. The office needs a certain number of chairs filled to maintain itself. Would you love to be in one of those guilds that have been around for a half dozen games? So would a lot of people, but picking up random players to fill a raid spot is status quo.

If you find yourself in a guild, and you really want to raid, find other guild members in the guild who are in the same position as you, who can attend raids at the same time as you, and do the same for friends you might have in other guilds as well, and then /gquit and form your own guild that will trim the access fat, and actually justify that money that you spend on your subscription instead of checking the AH, ranting about John Madden dying, and chatting with guilds in guild chat/Ventrillo about completely off topic crap.

Murtaug

08-11-2006, 09:33 PM

Not to mention I literally threw my keyboard across the room once when I was ninjaed.

Wow, you... wow. But I am sad to say I can understand.

I cancelled my account two months ago, after only four months of playing. I was level 58, I was sick of spending an hour plus getting a group together for an instance only to have the group fall apart a half hour into the instance.

I would have played up to level sixty before I quit, I just became so frustrated with the grinding. It's not difficult to hit level sixty in the game at all, it is just ... boring. I started to look at the game as a second job. "Alright, in order to accomplish this I need to spend X amount of time doing this every day this week." Screw that. If I wanted tedious and repetative tasks I'll just work overtime.. and get paid for it.

I will go back when the expansion hits, possibly a bit sooner.. I played a rogue, and the 1.12 patch is the rogue review patch; but I really do not see myself staying for more then a couple of months. Hit sixty once 1.12 is released, play around a bit until the expansion, hit seventy and be done with the game forever.

Christ, in the four months I played.. I think I had close to twenty-five days of game time racked up. Thinking about that, and then thinking about going back almost makes me a little sick.

Phanto

08-11-2006, 10:16 PM

holy crap blizz must be losing lots of customers for this to happen!!!! Tehdoom

Most of the hardcore players, those are the ones that must be complaining or leaving the game.
I agree with this changes atleast now I think more people would try to raid or raid more often..

Heretic Machine

08-11-2006, 11:30 PM

These changes sound good to me. Though, I would like at least one large 40-man raid at lvl 70. I just don't want it to be the focus, and I'd prefer that the class specific epics not appear in it.

bean19

08-12-2006, 12:13 AM

theguido

08-12-2006, 12:24 AM

A move in the right direction, but the real thing they need to fix is how grindy the games gets around level 45 or so. The beautiful thing about the beginning of the game is how fast you level and how you always feel like you can accomplish something in a couple of hours. Once you hit 45 or so it gets much slower in terms of leveling and less interesting because you're no longer gaining new skills. Once the game becomes about nothing but gear progression it ceases to be interesting.

And while I welcome this news, 25 is still too big. The hassle involved in getting that many people together is not something I care to do in a game. I'd be fine with it it was I getting paid but doing that much people-wrangling in my leisure time is not something I find enjoyable.

Zeal

08-12-2006, 12:24 AM

I simply quit at 47 due to guild drama. There were arguments over gear, raiding, battlegrounds, etc., every five seconds. It was also impossible to form a working raid or instance group.

The game essentially became World of Warcraft: Myspace Edition.

::account canceled::

Terminator voice: IT HAS TO END HERE.......

Heretic Machine

08-12-2006, 01:30 AM

Well it's about fucking time.

I think 15 is really the magic number to be able to do them in PUGs. 25 is manageable by many mid-sized guilds, but it will be a pain in the ass. . . you'll still have to do the damn DKP system, etc.

Not everyone does DKP, even for fourty-man raids. If it is an upgrade for you, then you roll on it. If it is no an upgrade for you, then you don't roll on it. I don't see why so many people have a hard time with this, it is the same system that was used for regular instances for 59 levels.

Vandenh

08-12-2006, 01:39 AM

The 40 man raids are a total fuck up. Yes they are fun but they are out of range for the majority of the players and are just a pain in the ass to put together. 10-25 man raids are the sweet spots. Good job Blizzard and that will put WoW back on track for me... I can last another year if these changes are true.

BTW I agree with Zeal. I am lucky with my guild but still I see a lot of drama and emo kids everywhere. This is what you get when you put people who are disfunctional in real life in a virtual one. They are still disfunctional emo fat geek no-lifers. My guilds is mainly 25-40 year old players and that seems to work slightly better.

OrangePulp

08-12-2006, 01:48 AM

I don't understand why people are really wanting the ability to do endgame instances with PUGs. Considering all the trouble I've had with PUGs, guild runs are much better. Also, why the hate for the DKP system? At least you get something to show for the time you've invested raiding; nothing sucks harder, to me, than running an instance five or ten times to get a single piece of gear, only to have it drop and get outrolled by some random asshole who's only run it once.

Also (not that blizzard will care), this is going to screw over all guilds that have just enough to run 40 man raids reliably. All of a sudden, they have 15 redundant people, or they're going to have to pick up more to fill out a second raid group (which will probably be an inferior group, going on past experience).

gawaintheblind

08-12-2006, 03:20 AM

I'm sure some of you will still find something to complain about, however.

Well, I mean, the game still sucks. I guess I can continue to complain about the same stuff that continues to suck, eh?

balamoor

08-12-2006, 04:18 AM

Or should I say... smaller changes??? (http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?cId=3152830)I'm sure some of you will still find something to complain about, however.

Thanks to The Continental for a similar submission.

Not me Draft, this is the single most intelligent thing that Blizzard has done, no scratch that the single most intelligent thing was to demote Jeff Kaplan and put Tom Chilton in his place, but this is right up there.

What I am reading in the Gamespot interview sounds more like what Blizzard had in mind before Tigole Bitties took the helm, and if you take a look at the official forums the majority is ecstatic over the news.

Oh and Draft, if you’re going to report news, you may want to try doing so without bias, and by not insulting your audience or showing them what a pissy little bitch you are.
Just a thought.

Derella

08-12-2006, 04:21 AM

I have to admit... I'm tempted to re-activate my account when Burning Crusade comes out. I never thought that would happen(I havent played in 6 months!), but there are no other MMOs coming out anytime soon, and some of these changes(plus new content) may make WoW fun again.

Buddha Lotus

08-12-2006, 06:21 AM

What am I missing here?

Ive been playing WOW for a year and a hlaf.. but I cant understand the signifance of this.

saneman

08-12-2006, 06:23 AM

Gamespot (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/worldofwarcraftexp1/news.html?sid=6155696&tag=topslot;action;1&page=1&q=&q=) has some more info. In particular, the blood elf and draenei mounts (cockatrice and elekk - war elephant - respectively).

balamoor

08-12-2006, 06:40 AM

What am I missing here?

Ive been playing WOW for a year and a hlaf.. but I cant understand the signifance of this.

Bottom line Buddha is that elder game is now going to be accessible to more people, not just the basement dwellers. that and with what they are also doing with PVP, Socketed items, and the addition of new Quest on all levels, WoW will no longer be the Raid or Die Wonderland it is currently.

Good Times. :cool:

Draft

08-12-2006, 07:05 AM

Camel

08-12-2006, 07:11 AM

Oh and Draft, if you’re going to report news, you may want to try doing so without bias, and by not insulting your audience or showing them what a pissy little bitch you are.
Just a thought.
He kept his own opinion in the note section after the news. He didn't put it in the title or somewhere else like some other people do. On top of it all...Draft was right! Just look at these forums and the WoW forums and tell me people aren't bitching.

And Perigon, I felt the same way about "roll if it's an upgrade, don't if it's not," and that just can't work. When you get that many people together at one time to do a raid and there's not a lot of equipment to go around, people want some sort of guarantee that they will eventually get some loot. There are better systems than DKP, but a system needs to be in place. This topic actually destroyed the last guild I was in. The people were absolutely fantastic (mostly because membership was restricted to those over 18), but the guild was divided over whether to become a raiding guild or not and how to handle all the issues that come with it and eventually started losing massive amounts of people. If that guild wouldn't have started to disintegrate I might still be playing, but eh, I'm happy I quit.

bean19

08-12-2006, 07:20 AM

Camel - All of the bitching I read is directed at the things that they are changing. Pretty much everyone hated this about WoW. . . except the people in uber guilds (though many of them hated it too - they were just getting their gear so that they wouldn't suck in PvP).

Camel

08-12-2006, 07:26 AM

Eh, a lot of stuff I see in the forums over there says "OH NO, WHERE WILL ROGUES FIT IN IN A SMALLER RAID!" and stuff like that (which people yell about after EVERY little change Blizz makes) and some of the complaints here are that it still makes raids too big. Nobody will ever be 100% happy, but I personally think these changes are pretty cool! Cool enough to bring me back? Must...stay....strong...

bean19

08-12-2006, 07:41 AM

Camel - Right. The 40-man raids let uber guilds get away with about 15 extra DPS of any flavor. . . but mostly rogues and hunters as both classes are so popular, so that could be a problem for some of them.

However, it will also mean that when they DO go on raids, they won't have to roll against 10 other rogues. It will be more like 3 or 4.

Anyone playing a rogue or a hunter should really roll up a preist or warrior alt if they want to access the endgame. I played a hunter initially (loved it from 1-60) and had a hell of a time getting raid invites because we were a dime/dozen. . . that's just the harsh reality of playing any class that is super popular.

Orosco

08-12-2006, 08:15 AM

After hearing this great news, the first thing I did to show support is re-up my subscription to...City of Villians, its a much better game.

Furious Wang

08-12-2006, 08:30 AM

Not everyone does DKP, even for fourty-man raids. If it is an upgrade for you, then you roll on it. If it is no an upgrade for you, then you don't roll on it. I don't see why so many people have a hard time with this, it is the same system that was used for regular instances for 59 levels.

Please tell me which guild and what server is /rolling on forty man raids and where their instance progression is. DkP is not a perfect system but it does allow for even progression relative to the time one spends attending raids and helping out the guild. Randoming is fine in pre raid instances because if you lose a roll on loot you just wtf get another group and run the zone in an hour no big deal. In 40 mans you only get one shot at that item a wekk and you've spent an entire evening running that zone. Dkp haters really need to get with.

balamoor

08-12-2006, 10:48 AM

hey balamoor I actually was just insulting your hilariously bitter self. burned any wow staff members in effigy lately?

Nope just laughed, as they were removed from projects. :D

Did you get that list of councilors I sent you? You are still spending way too much time thinking about me kiddo. :)

Sayshu

08-12-2006, 12:53 PM

Honestly this is the best news I've seen about the game since quitting it, almost enough to lure a man back after expansion. Small guilds rejoice :D

51|RandoM

08-12-2006, 05:03 PM

This is great news, imho. In one fell swoop they'll have fixed both of my major gripes with the game. I might even be tempted to go back if I find myself without any other gaming options to keep me busy.

I just couldn't handle an item-based game where some of those items were buried at the end of a 40-man raid instance, and even then you were rolling against 10 other people or were just grinding DKP.

Really, item stuff like that is why I no longer play FF:XI either. Camping HNM spawns for days on end sucks. Not being able to buy those drops because the stupid farmers have inflated the economy beyond all semblance of sanity just makes it worse.

Shifteh

08-13-2006, 01:51 PM

After both the paladin/shaman for all, and the "Now BOTH sides have elves!" debacle, I had lost all faith in blizzard. Now I see this... and my world is upsidedown.

Thank you Blizzard. Thank you!

bean19

08-13-2006, 03:28 PM

balamoor - Did Jeffrey Kaplan get taken off WoW? I can't imagine him being okay with making the game not solely for the raider playstyle.

Echani

08-13-2006, 09:37 PM

While I suppose it's a move in the right direction, there's still no chance I'll be going back. I toyed with the idea of rolling a new character (a priest, so as to avoid my old rogue's groupless woes) for Burning Crusade, but when I gave it some serious thought, the prospect of going back to WoW for anything other than the first 20 levels was nauseating. I've got much better stuff to do with the hours I'd spend on a raid which may or may not even reach the end of an instance, and may or may not yield an item my character needs, and which my character may or may not win in the roll. WoW was fun for me while it lasted, but it left me completely anti-MMORPG when I quit. And it wasn't the first one I played, not by a long shot.