Another PSP Price Cut?

[bapenguin]

CNN's Game Over (http://money.cnn.com/2006/08/11/commentary/column_gaming/index.htm) column examines the possiblity of another PSP price cut."There is a price cut coming in the second half of the year," said P.J.McNealy of American Technology Research. "[The PSP] has lost momentum. Nintendo has had a great run since it launched the DS Lite and Sony needs to regain some ground."

McNealy said he expects Sony (Charts) to drop the PSP's price by $50 to $149. It's possible the company will also bundle the cheaper system with a game or two as well, though not certain.

At $150 the PSP may actually be a value.

[Atepsflame]

Hey, if that's true now it's almost worth buying. But only almost.

[outontheporch]

They're still selling psp's?

[Cool AN]

If it does fall to $150, then the PSP will defiantly be worth the money, for Americans any way since I assume this only counts for the US.

[UnderHero5]

If it does fall to $150, then the PSP will defiantly the money, for Americans.
Umm... what?

[Kamalot]

If the PSP had LAUNCHED at $150, the DS wouldn't have stood a chance.

As it is now, $150 still looks like a waste.

[51|RandoM]

...but the razor blades still cost the same.

[Sl1pstream]

If it hits $ 99, I'm buying. At $ 150, I'll just save my money for a Wii.

[fitbabits]

A price cut may revive the PSP's fortunes in the short term, but the long term prognosis is bleak for Sony's 'do-everything' handheld.

[Kamalot]

If it hits $ 99, I'm buying. At $ 150, I'll just save my money for a Wii.
I was about to agree with you, thinking that it would make a nice emulator machine.

Then I realized that all the emulators I need are already on my Treo along with a kick-ass RSS news reader, MP3 player and movie player. Anything the PSP can do my phone can do, except play PSP games. Why carry around another device with a company that tries to lock down the firmware?

I'll pick one up at a garage sale in 6 years or so for $15.

[crackeriah]

I'm just glad I sold mine back when it was still $250...I got $150 back. I won't buy another at any price until they fix the battery life, the motion blur of the screen, and the thumb-busting ergonomics of the analog nub.

[Xenkylm]

They should've done this the day the Lite came out. Now it's too late, because everyone is saving up their money for the Wii/Ps3 launch in a few months. If they hit that sweet spot a few months ago, that would've really turned the tables in the handheld race.

[AversionFX]

Nintendo has had a great run since it launched the DS Lite and Sony needs to regain some ground.

... Lol? Yeah right.

[Kamalot]

Waitasecond...

The title reads, "Another PSP Price Cut?"

Where was the 1st price cut?

As far as I know, the only thing close to a price cut was the discontinuation of the package bundle that cost $50 more than the PSP by itself. Does removing features and price from the original bundle constitute a price cut?

:confused: :rolleyes: :confused:

[digitalErich]

If this had been done earlier, I'd be all over it. However, if at this point Sony hasn't been able to make the PSP attractive to me, what are the odds they are going to in the future? This price cut came too late Sony, sorry.

[EternalGamer]

Though it would never happen, if they sold it for $150 and gave me Ghouls n' Ghost or Loco Roco, I'd highly consider it.

[Johan]

A price cut may revive the PSP's fortunes in the short term, but the long term prognosis is bleak for Sony's 'do-everything' handheld.

I agree, which is why I think it's a waste of money at any price, and I won't be buying one. As the PSP begins to rot on the vine, publishers/developers will begin to fade away on it in the same that that movie studios have faded away on UMD. Once that happens, the cycle-of-death for the PSP as a gaming device has begun, as the cycle-of-death has already advanced fairly far with the UMD format.

I'm staying out of the whole mess myself. DS FTW

[jacktion]

... Lol? Yeah right.


Does thou doubteth?!?

[kickmybum]

Still wouldn't buy it.

[Kelegacy]

At 150 I'd seriously contemplate it. That's a sweet price point and there are games I would love to play on the PSP. Daxter, Syphon Filter, Wipeout, to name a few.

[thecrazyd]

I paid 150 for mine and haven't regretted it. There are some pretty decent games on it. I still use my DS a ton more though.

[Heretic Machine]

Great price, but horrible timing. I have better things to spend my money on up through next Spring.

[Barrapa]

If they would just open the PSP for media functionality instead of making it the crippled, gnarled thing it is. I'd love it. As it is I still keep it around with a few movies and lumines on tap for trips.

[Chandler]

Treo playing emulators is like driving a mercedes slr with a joystick.

[Plays4Pants]

At 150 I'd seriously contemplate it. That's a sweet price point and there are games I would love to play on the PSP. Daxter, Syphon Filter, Wipeout, to name a few.

lol. Daxter, Syphon Filter, Wipeout...to name a few. Lol. Syphon Filter...lol. :p

[Kelegacy]

lol. Daxter, Syphon Filter, Wipeout...to name a few. Lol. Syphon Filter...lol. :p
What's so funny?

[yellowoystercult]

I'm holding out for it to hit a hundred bucks or less. It'll come... eventually.

I can wait to play the three or four games I'll end up getting.

[Kamalot]

Treo playing emulators is like driving a mercedes slr with a joystick.
People do that in racing games all the time. :rolleyes:

[EternalGamer]

What's so funny?


Add Loco Roco, Valkerie Profile, Ghost n' Gobblins, Rachet & Clank, and Megaman to that list.

[antoniogaud]

If it came with LocoRoco, a 1gig card and 2 'classic' games - I'm in at $150. Otherwise that is Wii money.

[Goronmon]

Before buying my 360, I might have picked up a PSP at that price. Now? Not so much.

[Xenkylm]

Add Loco Roco, Valkerie Profile, Ghost n' Gobblins, Rachet & Clank, and Megaman to that list.

and that sweet genesis greatest hits thing that's coming out. And tekken.

I'm not gonna get it cuz my budget only has room for one console, but there's a point where there actually are enough good games to warrant the purchase. I still doubt the PSP cuz i'm a fanboi, but lately it's gotten quite a few AAA titles under its belt. Either developers are finally figuring it out, or Sony is becoming a friend with benefits.

[Kelegacy]

Add Loco Roco, Valkerie Profile, Ghost n' Gobblins, Rachet & Clank, and Megaman to that list.
I also would like to play Exit, Field Commander, Tekken, Hotshots Golf, Metal Gear Acid! 1 and 2.

[EternalGamer]

Eh, I was with you until those last three. Exit looked like it had serious issues and Tekken and Hot Shots more of the same. As far as Metal Gear Acid goes, I don't much fancy the idea of a MGS card battle game.

[J Arcane]

I dig the PSP. I like it because the game library actually has real games. Not tarted up Flash games with delusions of grandeur.

I had been planning to stop mooching off my friends machine soon anyway, so this'll just make the whole bit easier.

Though what I'd really like to see is them release the PSP White in the US, but Sony America is retarded.

EDIT: Also, D&D Tactics is coming out soon, and promises to be the first REAL turn-based adaptation of D&D 3e released on any platform. And that's worth the price of admission right there as far as I'm concerned, especially with all the MP options it's reported to include.

[Ferong]

Waitasecond...

The title reads, "Another PSP Price Cut?"

Where was the 1st price cut?

As far as I know, the only thing close to a price cut was the discontinuation of the package bundle that cost $50 more than the PSP by itself. Does removing features and price from the original bundle constitute a price cut?

:confused: :rolleyes: :confused:

QFT; when was the first price cut?

[danhoo]

Always did want to try out Mercury, or perhaps the less-brutal upcoming sequel. And the new GnG looks absolutely sweet. But I dunno...maybe $120 is closer to my pricepoint...

[FamousAchilles]

I would buy the Lite for my girlfriend then the psp for me!!!

[thecrazyd]

My biggest problem with it is the cost of the games. There are several games out there that I want, but don't want to dump 40-50 dollars on.

[Kamalot]

If the PSP drops in price this fall, people will have to decide if they want to:


Drop $150 on a handheld platform where the biggest publisher is scaling back support
Drop $130 on a DS where the biggest publisher is pledging more support and have $20 leftover.
Drop $150 towards 1/3 of a low-end PS3
Drop $150 towards 1/4 of a high-end PS3
Drop $150 towards 3/5 of a Wii


What does the PSP's lineup look like this fall? I know the DS has stuff like StarFox, Magical Vaccation, Final Fantasy III, Mario Hoops and more coming out.

[Kamalot]

D&D Tactics is coming out soon, and promises to be the first REAL turn-based adaptation of D&D 3e released on any platform.Sorry.

I call your bullshit (http://www.mobygames.com/game/pool-of-radiance).
The first in a series of successful "gold box" AD&D games for SSI, you create your party and maneuver it through 1st-perspective dungeons and overhead-view turn-based sequences.

Edit: Oh, my bad. I see you have 3e in there. Does that mean third edition?

I take back the bullshit comment. Does the 3rd edition rules really make that much of a difference? I know Fire Emblem does not have 'official' D&D rules, but it is a rockin' game with some of the best tactical battles I've ever played, on consoles, handles or tabletop. Does sticking to the official 3rd Edition D&D rules really matter that much to people?

[J Arcane]

Sorry.

I call your bullshit (http://www.mobygames.com/game/pool-of-radiance).


Oh, my bad. I see you have 3e in there. Does that mean third edition?

I take back the bullshit comment.
Allow me to correct an error in your reading comprehension skills:

D&D Tactics is coming out soon, and promises to be the first REAL turn-based adaptation of D&D 3e released on any platform.

EDIT: Damn you! You edit too fast! How am I supposed to be all snarky if you go and correct your own mistake? ;)

[Kamalot]

Allow me to correct an error in your reading comprehension skills:



EDIT: Damn you! You edit too fast! How am I supposed to be all snarky if you go and correct your own mistake? ;)
LMAO!
I was gonna tell you I edited it, but you editied yours first! :D

[J Arcane]

Sorry.

I call your bullshit (http://www.mobygames.com/game/pool-of-radiance).


Edit: Oh, my bad. I see you have 3e in there. Does that mean third edition?

I take back the bullshit comment. Does the 3rd edition rules really make that much of a difference? I know Fire Emblem does not have 'official' D&D rules, but it is a rockin' game with some of the best tactical battles I've ever played, on consoles, handles or tabletop. Does sticking to the official 3rd Edition D&D rules really matter that much to people?
3e makes a BIG difference to me. I play D&D. It's a great game, with great mechanics, and it's the best edition of the game ever released.

Comparing 3e to something like Fire Emblem is, at best, apples to oranges, and at worst, comparing a stick man to the Venus de Milo. There's a certain depth and complexity you're ignoring there.

[Kamalot]

3e makes a BIG difference to me. I play D&D. It's a great game, with great mechanics, and it's the best edition of the game ever released.

Comparing 3e to something like Fire Emblem is, at best, apples to oranges, and at worst, comparing a stick man to the Venus de Milo. There's a certain depth and complexity you're ignoring there.
I dunno about that. One is made for pen and paper. One is made for video games. I've played my fair share of D&D related games, going all the way back to Pools of Radiance. I've actually grown to appreciate the system in Fire Emblem and Shining Force a lot more since it allows me to focus on Tactics, and not character management.

Now, were I playing a full-blown RPG, I wouldn't want to use the system underneath Fire Emblem. I'd want full control over my party, their skills and feats as well as the ability to fully customize their equipment.

Since this is a tactics game though, I fail to see how adding the 3rd edition rules will make it more tactical. Perhaps it is a draw to the hardcore D&D players, of which, I am no longer a card-carying member.

[destoo]

There is depth in Fire Emblem, btw. But nothing compared to the D&D ruleset.

I thought Temple of Elemental Evil used the 3rd edition ruleset.. or was it 3.5?

[J Arcane]

I dunno about that. One is made for pen and paper. One is made for video games. I've played my fair share of D&D related games, going all the way back to Pools of Radiance. I've actually grown to appreciate the system in Fire Emblem and Shining Force a lot more since it allows me to focus on Tactics, and not character management.

Now, were I playing a full-blown RPG, I wouldn't want to use the system underneath Fire Emblem. I'd want full control over my party, their skills and feats as well as the ability to fully customize their equipment.

Since this is a tactics game though, I fail to see how adding the 3rd edition rules will make it more tactical. Perhaps it is a draw to the hardcore D&D players, of which, I am no longer a card-carying member.
The apples and oranges part of that comment was also referring to the fact the D&D Tactics is an actual RPG as well. The name primarily comes from the fact that the combat is proper grid turn-based, like tabletop, instead of, say, the bizarre bastardization fo the mechancis we saw in Temple of Elemental Evil, or another real-time Bioware engine game.

I love NWN, but I'd still like to play a D&D game that actually plays like D&D.

[Mr.Condescension]

I have to say that I don't quite understand all the PSP hate. I mean, it's sold/shipped over 20 Million units in 2 years. It looks like it's going to far outsell the GC and Xbox before all is said and done. I don't exactly see that as a failure, personally. It's sold 3 million more units since E3, so people are obviously still buying it at a good rate worldwide...it's really just losing its ass in Japan.

[Kamalot]

...it's really just losing its ass in Japan.
I hear there are a lot of important developers in Japan.

[J Arcane]

I have to say that I don't quite understand all the PSP hate. I mean, it's sold/shipped over 20 Million units in 2 years. It looks like it's going to far outsell the GC and Xbox before all is said and done. I don't exactly see that as a failure, personally. It's sold 3 million more units since E3, so people are obviously still buying it at a good rate worldwide...it's really just losing its ass in Japan.
My understanding is that it's doing well in Europe, on account of the fact that, White/Black ad aside, the people at Sony Europe actually have some clue what they're doing, and how to promote the platform.

And I've noticed a large lack of used PSP stuff at my local EB. Seems people are buying this stuff, but no one's sellign anything back . . .

[Kamalot]

I have to say that I don't quite understand all the PSP hate.
Ask Electronic Arts. They don't like PSP either, but maybe you missed that thread (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16189).

[J Arcane]

I hear there are a lot of important developers in Japan.
Whereas I think the last generation of consoles has proved very well that Japan is another country, with an entirely different culture, and thus means fuck all in terms of the American market.

The Xbox still sold just fine here without it. The PS2's biggest game is developed by Americans. The GC was largely a flop.

Who gives a fuck about Japan?

[Kamalot]

And I've noticed a large lack of used PSP stuff at my local EB. Seems people are buying this stuff, but no one's sellign anything back . . .
Where are you located? I'm in the Washington DC area and every game store is overflowing with used PSPs. The manager of my local GameStop says it is the single most traded in item. Last I was there, I counted 13 on the floor with the manager telling me there are more in the back.

Perhaps it varies by location.

[Kamalot]

Who gives a fuck about Japan?
Oh Snap!

This kind of closed-minded attitude will take you far my lad.

[J Arcane]

Ask Electronic Arts. They don't like PSP either, but maybe you missed that thread (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16189).
And that probably has something to do with the fact that save for the Burnout Legends port, they've released fuck all for the damn thing worth owning.

IF you don't release games people want to play, they won't buy them. Film at 11.

[J Arcane]

Oh Snap!

This kind of closed-minded attitude will take you far my lad.
I'm simply saying that they are two distinctly different markets, with very different tastes, and that as such, what flies in Japan does not necessarily translate into a whole hell of a lot of anything meaningful in the US market.

[gzsfrk]

I remember having the same thought that's occurring to me now occur to me a long time ago when the price of a Lynx dropped sub $100, and I was very tempted to pick one up. But I'll do now as I did then: Stop, think about it, and realize that my Nintendo handheld (GB then, DS Lite now) gives me all the gaming value I need, and there's no risk of it losing support and becoming a fancy paper weight any time soon.

[Mr.Condescension]

I hear there are a lot of important developers in Japan.

By that logic, though, the 360 is absolutely doomed. Just like Capcom making Dead Rising and other 360 games Japanese developers will continue to make games for the PSP for worldwide release. Obviously the relatively poor sales in that region compared to the DS aren't a good thing (take into account that it is still selling there, though, unlike the 360), but it's also not exactly a death knell for the system. Wait until MGS Portable Ops and other high profile games come down the pipe and then maybe the picture will become a little clearer worldwide.

[Spigot]

This is WAY off topic, but I was watching Inside Man last night and boy, did the PSP ever play a prominent role in the movie (well, part of it, at least).

For those who have seen it, was the game that the kid was playing an actual game? He mentioned 50 Cent so I thought maybe it was a PSP port of Bulletproof, but I thought the graphics looked a bit too good and violence was a little over the top.

Not to mention the fact that the kid was a good 9-10 years too young to be playing a game like that. Yeesh.

[J Arcane]

But hell, if Kam's determined to harp the Japan card, I could also link to this Gamasutra article (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=10442)about how the number one game in Japan right now is a PSP game . . .

[Spigot]

But it's a Gundam game... A GUNDAM GAME!

No accounting for taste, I tell ya.

[J Arcane]

But it's a Gundam game... A GUNDAM GAME!

No accounting for taste, I tell ya.
Which only serves to bolster my point really. ;)

[31 Flavas]

I dig the PSP. I like it because the game library actually has real games. Not tarted up Flash games with delusions of grandeur.Wow... I just found the perfect line for my signature. Congratulations, you beat out even Evil's god awefully bad quote....

[Rirath]

I got mine when it first came out at full price, and bought a 1gb card at about another $100, and I still don't regret it. Nor do I regret buying (trading in a bunch of stuff) a SECOND Nintendo DS when the Lite came out. Games aren't a very cheap hobby, especially if you want to see it all, and that's the best way to play if ya ask me.

I agree a $150 price point would have been great all along, but not at all reasonable. For the use I've got out of it I certainly don't feel cheated. There are games on it I wanted to play, and for that you simply need to own the system. People make their choice, become rooted in it, and defend it to the death.

[Cool AN]

Umm... what?

Dunno, edited my post so it made a little more sense.

[HALO 32]

it would be worth it...for me anyway

i dont know till it acually see a price drop then ill look and see if there are any good games for a purchase at that time

[AversionFX]

Does thou doubteth?!?


Sony competing with Nintendo in the handheld industry is like Microsoft competing with Apple in the portable music player industry. People will obviously buy a PSP or a Zune. But nowhere near to the same degree as the DS or iPod, respectively.

[Swat]

I still stand firm that the PSP is one of the most beautiful gadgets with the most gorgeous screen I've seen on a device. It absolutely rocks at multimedia content and despite all the complaining about UMD's, it was pretty cool to toss a handful of cookie sized movies in your pocket for a long trip.

The games, oh god.. the games. Why? Outside of Lumines, it's sloppy, awkward port-city. No matter how much I drooled about owning a portable, neutered, PS2 game, I got the sense of Deja Vu time and time again. Why am I paying $59.99 for GTA:LC when it's essentially the same game that is in the $5 bargain bin?

Adding the 30% content to ports or whatever Sony told the devs seems like a great idea, but it's still the same goddamned game that's been watered down and overpriced. And Sony's complete stubborn behaviour regarding their proprietary formats is what led to the rise and fall of the soul-sucking loading times of the UMD.

I preordered and anticipated the NA launch date. I took the day off work. With a couple of games and the value pack, I dropped about $700 that day. So far that's shaping up to be the worst investment I've made in my entire gaming career. And Sony's complete dropping of the ball on this handheld is one more spike in the coffin for me.

Once a big time Sony supporter, now I cringe whenever I hear the name.

[J Arcane]

I got mine when it first came out at full price, and bought a 1gb card at about another $100, and I still don't regret it. Nor do I regret buying (trading in a bunch of stuff) a SECOND Nintendo DS when the Lite came out. Games aren't a very cheap hobby, especially if you want to see it all, and that's the best way to play if ya ask me.

I agree a $150 price point would have been great all along, but not at all reasonable. For the use I've got out of it I certainly don't feel cheated. There are games on it I wanted to play, and for that you simply need to own the system. People make their choice, become rooted in it, and defend it to the death.
That's pretty much the deal for me too. Any console I purchase ultimately comes down to the game library, and the PSP just seems to have more that interests me right now.

I sung the praises of the DS when it first came out, but I've gotten more and more jaded as time has gone on, and I've seen so very little of that great and lauded "innovation" everyone keeps bending over backwards to find on the DS. It's just a lot of gimmicks, combined with stealing one's ideas from more obscure or ancient sources, so no one else can recognize them.

So I've I'm not gonna get the innovation I was promised, I may as well go with the platform that has stuff I know I like, like Burnout, Monster Hunter, Def Jam, or D&D.

[Xenkylm]

So I've I'm not gonna get the innovation I was promised, I may as well go with the platform that has stuff I know I like, like Burnout, Monster Hunter, Def Jam, or D&D.

That's absolutely the right attitude (regarding getting a system that has games YOU like). I'm curious though, what could possibly come out of the DS that would've counted as 'innovation' to you? It's always hard to read something like that, for me at least, since my personal gaming experience on DS has been so different from traditional consoles and traditional handhelds. Granted, if Nintendo had included a feature that gave you a handjob while you played MKDS, I'd probably consider it to be MORE innovative than I currently do, but in my mind, "Different gaming experience = innovation."

I've kinda felt like there are a lot of the gimmicky games (brain age, nintendogs, warioware), but also a lot of very interesting uses of the stylus (Metroid Prime Hunters, Kirby Canvas Curse, Trauma Center, Meteos), and a lot of games that are just good games and don't need it (MKDS, Advance Wars, NSMB). Some of them are innovative, some of them aren't, but it's always seemed to me that there is at least one game on the DS that should appeal to any type of gamer.

[Sl1pstream]

I'm curious though, what could possibly come out of the DS that would've counted as 'innovation' to you?


I don't know, that Burnout game was pretty innovative.

/SARCASM

Before I get sigged again.

[J Arcane]

I never said Burnout was innovative. Thanks for putting words in my mouth though, I always love that.

IS this big enough for you?

/SARCASM

[Sl1pstream]

/SARCASM

Uhm... (http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16002)

Thanks though.

[J Arcane]

Excuse me while I fail to understand the relevance of you linking to an utterly unrelated thread.

[Dag-Sabot]

This must be the thread version of a sidewinder losing its lock and deciding to track the sun instead :S

[Deathbane27]

Excuse me while I fail to understand the relevance of you linking to an utterly unrelated thread.

He quoted someone else. The Burnout comment had nothing to do with you, just like the thread link had nothing to do with anything.

[Xenkylm]

This must be the thread version of a sidewinder losing its lock and deciding to track the sun instead :S

Or like in "Blue Thunder" when Roy Scheider flies the helicopter past the hot dog stand and the missle blows it up.

[J Arcane]

He quoted someone else. The Burnout comment had nothing to do with you, just like the thread link had nothing to do with anything.
Well, Xenkylm didn't say anything about it being innovative either. Nobody did.

I'm just lost I guess.

[Dag-Sabot]

Or like in "Blue Thunder" when Roy Scheider flies the helicopter past the hot dog stand and the missle blows it up.
bwaa-ha-hah! Good old blue thunder. I wonder what hes up to these days.. Probably sunning his rotors poolside and snorting coke with Kitt from knight rider.

[kid cabelgo]

Well, Xenkylm didn't say anything about it being innovative either. Nobody did.

I'm just lost I guess.

uh, read his post, and take a good look at who he quoted. then read the quote directly above his. you'll figure it out.

[Metal Jesus]

I think Sony originally justified the $249 price because they marketed it as a Gaming handheld, Mp3 player and movie player.

...and if it would have done those 3 things well, it WOULD have been a good price (especially when compared to the $299 iPod)

But it didn't have a hard drive. And the UMD movie format failed.

As a gaming device, $150 seems about right to me. Despite all the PSP haters, there are actually great games for the device.
http://www.metacritic.com/games/psp/scores/

[Metal Jesus]

lol. Daxter, Syphon Filter, Wipeout...to name a few. Lol. Syphon Filter...lol. :p

Um...Syphon Filter on the PSP is AWESOME. Have you actually played the game?!

Everybody else seems to agree: http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/psp/syphonfilterdarkmirror

[Sl1pstream]

I got sigged for calling Tim Buckley a god because I didn't add "/sarcasm" to my post. Meh, I'm going to bed.

[hotdrop]

Having had one im thinking a PSP isnt worth more then 50 or 75bux

[Nessus]

I still think it's very true that the two are marketed towards completely different people.

I personally have no interest in Grand Theft Auto. It's fun to screw around for half an hour (just like GTA 1 on the PC was) then it gets boring and the go-from-point-A-to-point-B missions sandwiched in between non-interactive cutscenes don't do anything for me.

Just my personal opinion, but I really don't like how a lot of games are just brief snippets of gameplay and long cinemas. If I wanted to watch a movie with a pretentious or derrivative plot and generally bad voice acting... well, I wouldn't. Hell, your average Saturday morning half hour children's cartoon has better voice acting than 99% of games.

Games are games, not movies.

Back on topic though. I've never cared for GTA, Wipeout, Syphon Filter, etc. Locco Rocco looks neat, and some of the SNES ports seem like they might be amusing (Mega Man, Lemmings, Earthworm Jim, Ghouls And Ghosts, Gradius), but not worth paying $60 (I'm in Canada) on a 15 year old game. And playing 2D platformers on a really powerful expensive handheld sorta defeats the purpose.

DS games just interest me more. Obviously there are two different camps though. I'd like to get a PSP eventually, but not at that price.

[Chameleo]

it *is* a $150 in japan.

(the base console)

[Cubfan]

But Screech (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0608110134aug11,1,3100825.story?ctrack=1&cset=true) has... had one.

[Tyrant]

If Sony would improve the following, I would actually go out and buy a PSP:

-Longer stock battery life
-A not so bizarre square button
-A solid analog stick that is positioned where the d-pad is (lets either can that sucker or demote it to nub status)
-A faster UMD drive, assuming that this could equate to faster loading times

Heck, they don't even have to drop the price and I'll buy it!

[EvilMunkee80]

cutting the price of the machine is all well and good, but if they really want to make an impact on sales, they should really bring down the price of those umd movies. just doesn't make sense to charge more than dvds, when they don't have as many features as dvds, and then wonder why people aren't buying them.

[Rirath]

This must be the thread version of a sidewinder losing its lock and deciding to track the sun instead :S

Somehow, that almost seems poetic.

Dream little sidewinder, dream...

[J Arcane]

uh, read his post, and take a good look at who he quoted. then read the quote directly above his. you'll figure it out.
I wrote the bloody post above his, genius. And as I stated, nowhere in it anywhere did I suggest Burnout was innovative.

I understand what I wrote. X understood what I wrote.

[Kamalot]

If Sony would improve the following, I would actually go out and buy a PSP:

-Longer stock battery life
-A not so bizarre square button
-A solid analog stick that is positioned where the d-pad is (lets either can that sucker or demote it to nub status)
-A faster UMD drive, assuming that this could equate to faster loading times

Heck, they don't even have to drop the price and I'll buy it!
You know what...

...if Sony did all that, even I would buy it... and that's saying something.

[Siraris]

I got a PSP when it came out, and then someone stole it from my apartment last year. I don't plan on getting a new one until some more good games come out. I liked the PSP a lot; I really enjoyed Wipeout, Lumines, Ridge Racer and the media capabilities. I also completely adored playing the Loco Roco demo, and I'd really love to get Killzone, but that's not enough for me to get a new one.

I really wish someone would explain what happened with the PSP. I remember a lot of developers were really hyped about it, and then nothing really came of it. I really also feel like if the PSP had some killer titles for it, the DS wouldn't have been such a runaway success. Sony really dropped the ball.

[Mr.Condescension]

I really wish someone would explain what happened with the PSP. I remember a lot of developers were really hyped about it, and then nothing really came of it. I really also feel like if the PSP had some killer titles for it, the DS wouldn't have been such a runaway success. Sony really dropped the ball.

It is an odd thing. The PSP was the fastest gaming hardware to 10 Million units ever, yet why aren't there more high profile games for it? I'd have expected the heavy PS2 developers to have their flagship franchises already available with spin-off content, yet it seems that isn't going to really start until 2007.

[Xenkylm]

I wrote the bloody post above his, genius. And as I stated, nowhere in it anywhere did I suggest Burnout was innovative.

I understand what I wrote. X understood what I wrote.

Of course. You got a DS because you were hoping for innovation (ostensibly a new IP, completely new gameplay, etc.) and you got a PSP because it had/has games you wanted to play. It's ok to get two different systems for two different reasons... otherwise the Wii60 fans would implode on their own failed logic ;)

That question is still there though. Is there a game or idea that you can think of that you would've liked to see on the DS? Or was the lack of surprise in its innovations (e.g. using a touch screen as a touch screen might be innovative, but is certainly not surprising or particularly exciting in and of itself) the real issue?

[J Arcane]

Honestly, the big thing that sold me on the DS was Metroid. The DS is the best console for FPS since the N64. The touchscreen is a beautiful thing for FPS, but my understanding was that besides Metroid, there wasn't anything FPS worth playing on it.

I'm also an Advance Wars fan, so AW:DS was almost enough to sell me on it right there.

As to the comments about bettery life, perhaps I've been lucky with my buddy's, but I have zero problem with the battery, and the charge time is the fastest of any device I've ever used.

I do agree on the "analog stick". It sucks ass. Hardcore ass. Battlefront II was largely unplayable, not just becaus it was ashitty port, but because the stick sucks hard.

[Xenkylm]

Honestly, the big thing that sold me on the DS was Metroid. The DS is the best console for FPS since the N64. The touchscreen is a beautiful thing for FPS, but my understanding was that besides Metroid, there wasn't anything FPS worth playing on it.

That's a good point, I'm shocked that other developers haven't marched in with more FPS's for DS, especially considering the WiiFPS interest from developers. Are there any other FPSs for DS?

/logged over 70 hours on advance wars... yikes...
**edit**
I wish advance wars was a wifi title :(

[J Arcane]

That I know of, the only other FPS for DS is Goldeneye: Rogue Agent, hich by all reports I've seen was hideously bad.

[chowweekly]

That I know of, the only other FPS for DS is Goldeneye: Rogue Agent, hich by all reports I've seen was hideously bad.

Of all the james bond* games I've played I would say Goldeneye: Rougue Agent is the worst. That's saying something because I've played the one they were selling in a 3-pack for 20 bucks.

So begins the rant:

The main problem is their horrendous control scheme. You can use the stylus or your thumb to aim just fine but to fire your weapons you must press the L or R button that correspondes with the weapon you want to use. If I had a third arm or my thumb was 5 inches long this would work just fine. Unfortunately I am a human being and my limbs are not customizable.

They try to fix this in a way by allowing you to tap a little arrow at the bottom of the screen to switch which weapon is bound to which trigger and tapping again will allow both weapons to be fired with one trigger. Sadly when a weapon runs out of ammo it is immediately discarded and if you ever go back to the default weapons (pistol and gernades) the arrow goes away and the next time you pick up a weapon you have to reset the double firing option. Not really ideal when you're getting shot.

I suppose it all doesn't really matter in the end because the AI is dumb as ... I'm having trouble finding a more insulting comparison than 'James Bond Video Game AI' so I'll just use that. What it all amounts to is another unispired James Bond* game who's greatest strength turned out to be it's greatest weakness.

Rant over, for now.

*James Bond does not appear in the game and is not even tangentally involved in the story so it is only a 'James Bond' game by pure technicallity

[Ravenlock]

Agree with many that $150 would have been a tremendously attractive price at launch... but right now, not so much.

There are maybe 4 games on the PSP I actively want to play. (Megaman, the new Ghosts & Goblins, Lumines, Loco Roco) and a few others I would pick up if I owned it (GTA, Burnout, the standard stuff)

On the DS, I've already bought NSMB, Metroid Hunters, Animal Crossing, Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow, Meteos, Trauma Center, Phoenix Wright, Age of Empires, Mario Kart, Brain Age - and while no, not all of them are "innovative", they're all damn good games I get a lot of playtime out of. And in the upcoming months on the DS, there's Contact, Children of Mana, Final Fantasy III's remake, another Castlevania, Starfox Command, a new Zelda, Megaman ZX... and some other stuff I'm forgetting, I'm sure. Not to mention the whole GBA library, which I didn't have a GBA to play, most of which is now at bargain prices in the used bin.

Yes, it lacks for the FPS games it should have, and very little for sports titles unless Mario Hoops does it for you, but aside from that I just don't think there's any comparison between the gaming libraries of the two systems. I'd rather spend the $150 on the upcoming onslaught of good DS stuff.

[drakkarim]

nice, at $150 i'd probably be very happy to pick up a used one for much less :)

[Spigot]

With all this talk of innovation and a lack thereof on the DS, I really want to know what you people would concider innovative.

Maybe this is a case of one man's gimmicks being another man's innovation, but I find that using the stylus and touch screen with the addition of mic input and the dual screens is rather innovative. Name me one other game platform that takes these elements and combines them for new and different gameplay experiences like the DS does. Sure, none of the tech is brand new and never before seen, but in terms of using it for gameplay, it's basically the first system to do so.

The PSP is very good at what it does, ie. being a portable multimedia center with lovely tech and a few good exclusive games. I just find this talk of the DS not being innovative rather headscratchingly confusing.

Woot! Post 3000 pour moi! Je suis une pomplemousse!

[Kelegacy]

You know what...

...if Sony did all that, even I would buy it... and that's saying something.
Kam, I thought you already owned one?

Didn't you say that in the past???

[J Arcane]

With all this talk of innovation and a lack thereof on the DS, I really want to know what you people would concider innovative.

Maybe this is a case of one man's gimmicks being another man's innovation, but I find that using the stylus and touch screen with the addition of mic input and the dual screens is rather innovative. Name me one other game platform that takes these elements and combines them for new and different gameplay experiences like the DS does. Sure, none of the tech is brand new and never before seen, but in terms of using it for gameplay, it's basically the first system to do so.

The PSP is very good at what it does, ie. being a portable multimedia center with lovely tech and a few good exclusive games. I just find this talk of the DS not being innovative rather headscratchingly confusing.

Woot! Post 3000 pour moi! Je suis une pomplemousse!
The only game I have seen that comes close to being something I haven't seen before is Kirby Canvas Curse. And I suspect that's just a combination of me jut not remembering anything off the top of my head, and the act that I have a pro-Kirby bias. ;)

Metroid is basically just Metroid 3 Arena. Advance Wars is great, but it's just a sequal to the original with added point-and-lick. Trauma Center is the arcade version of the old Life and Death game. Warioware and Feel the Magic are no different than the zillions of brainless flash games you find all over the web.

Yes, you're right, in that no other console device has bothered to combine those traits in the same unit before, but in terms of the gameplay, the most important part, I've yet to really see any games that brough out that promised "innovation" that Nintendo and its fans (of which I was one at first, mind) love to fellate themselves over.

[Spigot]

So, what would you concider an innovative gameplay mechanic then? Are you basically waiting for the next Katamari-type paradigm shift in gameplay? Something that is so simple yet different that we've never seen it before?

it's just a sequal to the original with added point-and-lick

Mmm... point and lick... That's innovative :)

[Xenkylm]

Maybe this is a case of one man's gimmicks being another man's innovation, but I find that using the stylus and touch screen with the addition of mic input and the dual screens is rather innovative.

For some reason "no one else has ever done it" isn't enough anymore. Not only do you need to incorporate technology into a console that hasn't been used before (either unique technology or something that's just never been used for videogames), but you apparently also need to use it in a way that no one could have thought of previously. For things to count as innovative these days, they need to be greater than the sum of their parts.

I agree that some genres haven't taken off on the DS, notably FPS and sports games, but the frustrating thing (to DS fans, at least) is that once some people heard the punchline, they kept waiting for another end to the story. That is, people heard "and it'll have a touchpad!" and thought "cool. i wonder what else it'll do!"

...no no... that was the innovation. The touchpad and two screens WAS the innovation. If it's not an innovation you want, then it's not an innovation you buy (or its one that you return). The same thing will definitely happen with the Wii. You can see it already... "what's under the flap?" "what else will it do?" But they already showed us the innovation. It's the controller... Whether the technology itself is new is irrelevant. The innovation is making the technology integral to the gameplaying experience. When the games come out, they will use the controller, much like when DS games came out, they took advantage of either the touch pad, the two screens, or both. If you're expecting other innovations, you will likely be disappointed.

[d0g_p00p]

Then I realized that all the emulators I need are already on my Treo along with a kick-ass RSS news reader, MP3 player and movie player. Anything the PSP can do my phone can do, except play PSP games. Why carry around another device with a company that tries to lock down the firmware?



Does your Treo have a dedicated d-pad, buttons, widescreen display, 2GB of storage, shoulder buttons, USB as external storage, stereo sound and run emulators at full speed?

I did not think so.

[Xenkylm]

Does your Treo have a dedicated d-pad, buttons, widescreen display, 2GB of storage, shoulder buttons, USB as external storage, stereo sound and run emulators at full speed?

I did not think so.

Does your PSP have a camera, a keyboard, and function as a phone?

/i know. I think it's a stupid argument too.

[MoJoBehaumat]

nice, at $150 i'd probably be very happy to pick up a used one for much less :)

Yea...for like 145 ;)

[Spigot]

I agree that some genres haven't taken off on the DS, notably FPS and sports games, but the frustrating thing (to DS fans, at least) is that once some people heard the punchline, they kept waiting for another end to the story. That is, people heard "and it'll have a touchpad!" and thought "cool. i wonder what else it'll do!"

...no no... that was the innovation. The touchpad and two screens WAS the innovation. If it's not an innovation you want, then it's not an innovation you buy (or its one that you return)...much like when DS games came out, they took advantage of either the touch pad, the two screens, or both. If you're expecting other innovations, you will likely be disappointed.
Thank you, Xenkylm. That's my perspective too. I look at the DS and see the way that the dual screens, touch screens and mic are being used and to me, that's innovative.

Early DS games were NOT innovative because they were basically ports that didn't bother to really incorporate the dual screens, touch screen or mic into the gameplay equation. By mid to late last year, you really started to see the first batch of DS games that really grasped what the potential of the system was. Sure, some of the games use the big Nintendo franchises but even there it's a game that you really couldn't play on another system for the most part because of the implementation of the controls or dual screen.

NSMB and Tetris are about the only non-innovative games of the last batch of BIG DS titles but even there they either use the 3D power of the DS to great effect (NSMB) or add a gameplay element that wasn't really available prior to the DS iteration (WiFi Tetris and the various touch screen elements of Tetris).

I can't even imagine playing a game like Ouendan on another system, even though it is basically a classic rhythm/music game. The controls just wouldn't be done justice on another system because the innovative interface isn't there.

*shrug*

[Ravenlock]

Well, like I stated in my last post, I don't particularly care whether it's innovative or not, there are just more games on the DS that I want to play, by a factor of at least 3 currently and soon by a factor of 4 or 5. It just has fantastic, fun games. Trauma Center is fun whether it's "innovative" or not. New Super Mario Bros is almost fun BECAUSE it's not innovative.

That said, I also would like to hear what J Arcane considers to be innovation. The use of the stylus as a control mechanism IS the innovation of the system. Different developers are using it in different ways - a scalpal in Trauma Center, an analog stick in Metroid, a... disembodied hand? in Kirby, basically a mouse in strategy games, a flight stick in the upcoming Starfox. But that was the only thing "innovation" on the system was going to stem from, so if you were waiting for more than that, that's a bit silly.

Thankfully, however, some incredibly fun games HAVE stemmed from it (and some others exist on the system regardless of control), and I fail to see how anything else matters.

EDIT: Spigot made some of these points, and some other good ones, in the last post on the last page. Sorry to bump the thread ahead right after you posted, Spigot, I hope people go back and read it. :)

[Spigot]

EDIT: Spigot made some of these points, and some other good ones, in the last post on the last page. Sorry to bump the thread ahead right after you posted, Spigot, I hope people go back and read it. :)
If people are setting their posts per page count to 40, then no worries :) You're nestled right under me... If they're not, well, they should. It's THE RIGHT THING TO DO!

Yeah, your points were pretty much along the lines of what I was trying to stutter out in my post. Maybe people are expecting some kind of psychic link-up via the wi-fi connection or something, but the innovations were all laid out in the various ways we've reiterated about 8 times already.

It's up to the developers to use the different innovations of the console in innovative ways. Some have grasped the ways that the system can be used differently than, say, a really bright GBA. Others haven't.

[Kamalot]

Kam, I thought you already owned one?

Didn't you say that in the past???
I did own one...

[Kamalot]

Does your Treo have a dedicated d-pad, buttons, widescreen display, 2GB of storage, shoulder buttons, USB as external storage, stereo sound and run emulators at full speed?

My Treo DOES have a fair number of these things.

It does have a dedicated directional pad, although not as nice as the PSP's.

It does have dedicated buttons, 45 of them. :rolleyes:

The display is not widescreen, but it is 320x320 pixels. Movies played on the Treo can be 320x240, the same resolution that can be played off the Memory Stick on the PSP. There is no need to downsample movies, the treo can play full 640x480 movies and downsample them on the fly, no need to run conversion software. No spedial naming conventions either, just drop them on your SD card.

Yes, the treo has 2 GB of storage through the use of an SD card slot. SD cards are cheaper than Memory Sticks of the same capacity.

No, the Treo does not have shoulder buttons. It DOES have a whole freaking keyboard though.

Through the use aof a piece of shareware, the Treo can act as an SD card reader. Plug it into your PC and you can access the files directly off of the SD card. I think that's what you mean by "USB as external storage". I never use this 'feature' though cause my laptop has an SD card reader built in. SD card readers are common cause, you know, it is a standard, unlike Memory Sticks.

The Treo does have stereo sound, even from Emulators through the use of headphones.

And yes, it runs emulators at full speed including Genesis, SNES, NES TG16 SMS, GameGear, GameBoy Color, Comodore 64 and more, even some MAME.

It also does a shitload more like streaming music from shoutcast stations, RSS newsreading, scheduled downloads of podcasts to the SD card, MUCH better web browsing (in fact one can use all of Evil Avatar), a camera and camcorder that when combined with email turn it into a mobile blogging station, Document reader, relational database (building a Pokédex in it), you can watch TV on it, streaming over the network (for an extra fee), scheduler, SMS and instant messenger, oh yeah...it also has a calculator! :rolleyes: With Bluetooth, I can use the Treo as a GPS too and the Treo can run touchscreen games like Sudoku.

As a gadget, PSP is really weak. Lots of things do what the PSP does, better.

Edit: I almost forgot...I can make and get phone calls on my Treo too.

[J Arcane]

That said, I also would like to hear what J Arcane considers to be innovation. The use of the stylus as a control mechanism IS the innovation of the system.
Using a stylus as a control method is not "innovative".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_(PDA)

[Spigot]

Using a stylus as a control method is not "innovative".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_(PDA)
Arg, but it is with regards to portable gaming on a dedicated game machine.

*bangs head on desk*

[Tohoya]

To those of you saying that you'd pick one up at $150...

http://product.ebay.com/Sony-PlayStation-Portable-Game-console-black_W0QQfvcsZ1452QQsoprZ43973091

The very top one, I see PSP and 4 games going for $127.50 with about 45 minutes left. That's the best deal I've seen, but I know I haven't seen just a PSP going for over $130. Lots of people are cashing out on their PSPs and not a whole lot of people are buying.

[Kamalot]

To those of you saying that you'd pick one up at $150...

http://product.ebay.com/Sony-PlayStation-Portable-Game-console-black_W0QQfvcsZ1452QQsoprZ43973091

The very top one, I see PSP and 4 games going for $127.50. That's the best deal I've seen, but I know I haven't seen just a PSP going for over $130. Lots of people are cashing out on their PSPs and not a whole lot of people are buying.
Well... that's where mine ended up. :(

[J Arcane]

Arg, but it is with regards to portable gaming on a dedicated game machine.

*bangs head on desk*
You are aware that there's a rather large number of games on the Palm platform, right?

[Spigot]

You are aware that there's a rather large number of games on the Palm platform, right?
Yes, but I'm talking about REAL games ;)

[J Arcane]

Yes, but I'm talking about REAL games ;)
Don't you knock my Mech Arena. ;)

[Ravenlock]

Mech Arena. Right, then, so we're done here? :rolleyes: ;)

J, my point (and Spigot's I imagine, and I also think you know this already) is not that using the stylus as a control system is highly innovative. Basing a handheld console's control scheme around something other than a D-Pad or an analog stick WAS a risk - a risk Nintendo was mocked for ahead of time and praised for after the fact - but the innovation level is debateable, yes.

My point is, who cares? My statement wasn't that it was a hugely innovative move, my statement was that the control system was the only innovation the system was ever going to have, so where else were you looking for it? And why? "Innovation" isn't some magic ingredient that makes games better, good game design makes games better. The DS has a lot of truly excellent games, some that use the stylus control in creative ways and some that don't, with more on the way from the looks of it. What else matters?

Given the "self-fellating" comment earlier, I assume part of it is just annoyance at Nintendo fans acting like Mac elitists with their noses up in the air. Fine, I agree, that can get annoying. I'll praise Nintendo's business strategy up and down the street, but no, there's nothing new under the sun. That said, I think I've got the system with more fun on it - I didn't hear anybody rattle off 17 great PSP games against the ones I listed a few pages back - and I'm pretty happy with that, so when Sony finally lowers the price of their system to be only a little more expensive than mine, yeah, of course I'm going to chuckle at them.

[J Arcane]

Innovative is a really simple word to me, when it's used to refer to a game.

It means it does something new. Something I haven't seen before. It's like the quote about porn: I can't describe it exactly, but I know it when I see it.

And well, as I said, I haven't seen that with either handheld.

[Ravenlock]

Innovative is a really simple word to me, when it's used to refer to a game.

It means it does something new. Something I haven't seen before. It's like the quote about porn: I can't describe it exactly, but I know it when I see it.

And well, as I said, I haven't seen that with either handheld.Right. I get that. You didn't answer either of the questions in my post at all. To sum them up again:

(1) where did you expect the innovation to exist in the DS if not in the control system, which we've already determined you don't believe is innovative? I mean, that's the only thing different about it from any other system.

(2) who cares if it's innovative (and okay, maybe it's not) if it has higher quality games in greater quantity (which I haven't heard anyone dispute that it does) for less $$?

In terms of actual "innovation" in console gaming, going by your definition of something actually NEW, they only come along once every half-decade or so, and we haven't seen anything innovative since the analog stick (in terms of control system) and the introduction of 3D (in terms of the games themselves). We may get something genuinely new with the Wii, and I hope we do, but you can argue that even that's just a Power Glove that actually works. I just don't see why we're harping on this buzzword so much.

EDIT: And the quote about porn really doesn't serve your point much, since in context it only points out that nobody can say "this is porn, that isn't" because everybody has their own perspective on it. It's futile to use widely divergent, personal views to make broad statements about the nature of any media.

[Kamalot]

You are aware that there's a rather large number of games on the Palm platform, right?
I've been a Palm user since 1998. Why there aren't better games for the Palm platform is one of the great mysteries of life. Yes, the machines have a fair bit of processing power. Yes, they have touch screens. No, they don't have a half-decent selection of good games. The best Palm games are blown away by mid-grade DS shovelware and I can't understand why.

[31 Flavas]

Yes, but I'm talking about REAL games ;)Oooo Burn.

[Spigot]

Innovative is a really simple word to me, when it's used to refer to a game.

It means it does something new. Something I haven't seen before. It's like the quote about porn: I can't describe it exactly, but I know it when I see it.

And well, as I said, I haven't seen that with either handheld.
OUENDAN!!!!

[J Arcane]

(2) who cares if it's innovative (and okay, maybe it's not) if it has higher quality games in greater quantity (which I haven't heard anyone dispute that it does) for less $$?

Because it was that supposed innovation that was supposed to be the great selling point of the DS.

And I strongly disagree that there are, in fact, "higher quality games and in greater quantity" on the DS. I think there's a lot of crap shovelware and gimmick games, and very few actual quality titles.

[31 Flavas]

Because it was that supposed innovation that was supposed to be the great selling point of the DS.

And I strongly disagree that there are, in fact, "higher quality games and in greater quantity" on the DS. I think there's a lot of crap shovelware and gimmick games, and very few actual quality titles.If you are correct that "higher quality games and in greater quantity" do not exisit on the DS, why is there such mass hystaria in Japan to purchase DS hardware and software? Gamers wouldn't purchase low quality gimpped games when something so :rolleyes: obviously :rolleyes: better in competition exists. We're going on just over half a year now and already the DS Lite's year to date sales alone have outsold the PSP's life to date sales in Japan. Even the US is catching the fever, with a 691k unit lead over the PSP. And of course worldwide Sold hardware vs Sold hardware the DS has an 8 million unit lead.

The PSP obviously has more games that interest you. And obviosly these games do have higher-resolution "better" graphics, but that's beside the point. For the DS hardware and software to sell so much better over superior hardware and "superior" games, must mean there are some pretty high-quality software for the DS. What is it that the rest of the world sees in the DS hardware and software you don't or do not want to admit to.

Maybe it is innovative hardware and software?

Nah... couldn't be... PSP has the REAL games, or whatever...

[Dag-Sabot]

What i'd like is a time machine to fast forward to next year and then read the psp news, which im guessing is not going to be encouraging. Although it would be in my best interest if it were, as i am the owner of one.

[Kamalot]

What i'd like is a time machine to fast forward to next year and then read the psp news, which im guessing is not going to be encouraging. Although it would be in my best interest if it were, as i am the owner of one.
LMAO! I was sigged!

I'll have to be careful how much I give away, or I'll end up in everyone's sig. :eek:

[Dag-Sabot]

The first step is admitting you have a problem. :D

[Ravenlock]

(2) who cares if it's innovative (and okay, maybe it's not) if it has higher quality games in greater quantity (which I haven't heard anyone dispute that it does) for less $$?Because it was that supposed innovation that was supposed to be the great selling point of the DS.

And I strongly disagree that there are, in fact, "higher quality games and in greater quantity" on the DS. I think there's a lot of crap shovelware and gimmick games, and very few actual quality titles.And yet you didn't reply at all to my post where I specifically listed the high quality DS games I'm proud to own and play, and the ones coming out in the immediate future, while struggling to come up with even five PSP games that interest me more than marginally.

Recap... currently own: New Super Mario Bros, Mario Kart, Phoenix Wright, Trauma Center, Brain Age, Animal Crossing, Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow, Metroid Hunters, Age of Empires, Meteos. Coming soon: Zelda: Phantom Hourglass, Starfox, Clubhouse Games, Megaman ZX, Castlevania: Portrait of Ruin, Contact, Children of Mana, Phoenix Wright Episode 2, Chibi Robo, Deep Labyrinth, Elite Beat Agents, Hotel Dusk, and whatever else I'm forgetting in fear of my wallet.

And that's without mentioning games that some people think are the best on the system but I haven't played like Kirby's Canvas Curse or Yoshi's Island, or the entire backwards-compatible GBA library, which has a ton of fantastic games.

Yes, of course there's a lot of shovelware on GBA/DS, it's the lower priced system. And all of this is just a matter of opinion anyhow. But since we're sitting here typing, what are the great games on the PSP? I'm just curious to see a list, because honestly aside from Lumines, GTA, Burnout, Megaman and Syphon Filter (and Loco Roco and Ghosts & Goblins in the current/near release category) I can't remember even hearing about its games, and we all like to hear about good games, right? ;)

[Ravenlock]

Also, since this is actually relevant to the thread topic, somebody over at the PAL Gaming Network did some impressive research (http://palgn.com.au/viewtopic.php?t=12180) about the actual SALES numbers for the DS vs the PSP worldwide.

The estimated totals?

DS: Over 22,538,503 confirmed sales
PSP: Around 12,509,031 confirmed sales

Since Sony doesn't release sales figures, the PSP might well have a million or so more sales than that he couldn't find data on... which still wouldn't even make them close. He's posted links to his sources in the thread.

This of course puts Sony's shipped figures to shame. There is no way they have sold any more then 15 million, so they must have literally millions sitting in warehouses and store shelves artificially inflating their 'shipped' numbersIndeed.

[Kamalot]

Also, since this is actually relevant to the thread topic, somebody over at the PAL Gaming Network did some impressive research (http://palgn.com.au/viewtopic.php?t=12180) about the actual SALES numbers for the DS vs the PSP worldwide.

The estimated totals?

DS: Over 22,538,503 confirmed sales
PSP: Around 12,509,031 confirmed sales

Since Sony doesn't release sales figures, the PSP might well have a million or so more sales than that he couldn't find data on... which still wouldn't even make them close. He's posted links to his sources in the thread.

Indeed.
Holy cow. Is this for reals?

[J Arcane]

Games I have played, or am interested in playing/acquiring on the PSP:

Burnout
Monster Hunter
D&D Tactics
Dungeon Siege
Def Jam: Fight for NY
Power Stone Collection
Metal Gear Ac!d 1 & 2
Lord of the Rings Tactics
Worms: Open Warfare
Lemmings
Generations of Chaos
Field Commander
Cash Money Chaos
Gran Turismo 4
Metal Gear Solid: Portable Ops


Titles I have played, or am interested in owning on the DS:

Metroid Prime Hunters
Advance Wars Dual Strike


That's not a complete list of PSP games either. I got bored building it because it was taking too long to list them all.

[J Arcane]

Also, since this is actually relevant to the thread topic, somebody over at the PAL Gaming Network did some impressive research (http://palgn.com.au/viewtopic.php?t=12180) about the actual SALES numbers for the DS vs the PSP worldwide.

The estimated totals?

DS: Over 22,538,503 confirmed sales
PSP: Around 12,509,031 confirmed sales

Since Sony doesn't release sales figures, the PSP might well have a million or so more sales than that he couldn't find data on... which still wouldn't even make them close. He's posted links to his sources in the thread.

Indeed.
Nintendo sells more than it's competitors in a market it has dominated for a decade. Film at 11!

After the break, we'll discuss how Microsoft continues to outsell Red Hat Linux!

Never mind that that little quote of yours is some dork's idle speculation, or that sales numbers say basically nothing about how fun the gameplay is.

[Kamalot]

Never mind that that little quote of yours is some dork's idle speculation, or that sales numbers say basically nothing about how fun the gameplay is.
You are right. It must be the least fun games that are selling so well the world over.

[J Arcane]

You are right. It must be the least fun games that are selling so well the world over.
Well, Microsoft makes far from the best OS on the market, but it still has a good 80+% marketshare.

Sales =/= indicator of quality. Sales = indicator of marketing and marketshare.

[Kamalot]

Well, Microsoft makes far from the best OS on the market, but it still has a good 80+% marketshare.

Sales =/= indicator of quality. Sales = indicator of marketing and marketshare.
Obviously, that's why I am agreeing with you. It must mean that the PSP games are a hell of a lot more fun that the popular DS games, right? Who'da thunk that PSP ports with crappy controls could be overlooked by the masses. :rolleyes:

[J Arcane]

Wow. Never have I seen someone so utterly determined to both ignore my point, and put in it's place one I never even made. It's really fascinating. Like a case study in deliberate ignorance.

The point I was making is only that quoting sales number is utterly irrelevant. The point you read me making, well, I'm not sure what the fuck you read in your busted little brain, because I can't make any goddamn sense of the shite you've been rambling about for the last two or three posts.

[Kamalot]

Wow. Never have I seen someone so utterly determined to both ignore my point, and put in it's place one I never even made. It's really fascinating. Like a case study in deliberate ignorance.Hey, we each have to run with our individual strengths. Were you saying something?

[Ravenlock]

Thank you for the list. I was genuinely serious in wondering what people saw as being attractive on that system. I didn't know, for instance, that Dungeon Siege was on (or coming to?) the PSP. That's kinda cool. I have no interest in the vast majority of that list - Dungeon Siege and the non-Ac!d MGS sound promising - but we seem to have that in common about our respective lists, so that's fine.

I think it remains the majority opinion (of critics, and apparently of purchasers) that the DS is the system with the better games overall, and the DS is certainly the system whose upcoming games are getting the most attention. But it's nice to see that there ARE things to play, for someone who has a PSP.

As for the "dork's idle speculation", I don't think "adding" requires much speculation, and all he did was find reported sources, which he cited, and add. But no, sales numbers don't equate to fun. I posted it in the thread as a nonsequitor example of WHY Sony's likely to keep lowering the PSP's price - since that was the thread subject - not as a point in our discussion.

[J Arcane]

Well, my comment was more referring to that quote, where he somehow draws the conclusion that there's just a bunch of PSPs sitting in a warehouse somewhere rotting. I don't see how someone can draw that conclusion from just the well known fact that the DS outsells the PSP.

[31 Flavas]

Well, my comment was more referring to that quote, where he somehow draws the conclusion that there's just a bunch of PSPs sitting in a warehouse somewhere rotting. I don't see how someone can draw that conclusion from just the well known fact that the DS outsells the PSP.Uh... it's call subtraction. Sony released a financial report on July 24th. I think, I said this already. Anyway, contained with in were PSP shipment numbers total, for Japan, US, and the EU. You take those source numbers listed, which are cited, subtract them (sold unit numbers) from Sony's provided shipment numbers and you get lots of unsold PSP units.

* Accumulated PSP Shipments (July 24th)
Japan - 5.20 million units
North America - 8.17 million units
Europe - 6.65 million units

Total Shipments: 20.02 million units.

A million and a half units sit unsold in Japan, three and a half million sit unsold in the US, and 1-2 million+ unsold in Europe. Whether they are on store shelfs or in warehouses is immaterial... That's 6-7 million unsold PSP's.

[Ravenlock]

Yeah, 31 Flavas beat me to the response here. The guy's "idle speculation", even in the quote, is still just basic math.

[Number Sony proudly says they've shipped] minus [number the sources show they've sold] = rough estimate of [number that they haven't sold], which makes it pretty clear why they aren't releasing sales statements.

And pretty much the ONLY reason you manufacture and ship millions more units than you're selling is to artificially inflate your reported shipping numbers. After which - nice example of cause and effect - you lower the price so that you can sell some of those over-produced units.

[Kamalot]

Yeah, 31 Flavas beat me to the response here. The guy's "idle speculation", even in the quote, is still just basic math.

[Number Sony proudly says they've shipped] minus [number the sources show they've sold] = rough estimate of [number that they haven't sold], which makes it pretty clear why they aren't releasing sales statements.

And pretty much the ONLY reason you manufacture and ship millions more units than you're selling is to artificially inflate your reported shipping numbers. After which - nice example of cause and effect - you lower the price so that you can sell some of those over-produced units.
If this is the case, why isn't it front-page news? Someone should submit it.

[31 Flavas]

If this is the case, why isn't it front-page news? Someone should submit it.Wouldn't you say its a bit flame baity? I mean the tag line here is "gaming news.... with attitude", but were not supposed to submit obstenstivly troll postings.

PSP Price Cut based on over shipping! Ok!

7 million PSPs rotting all over the world, Sony to cut PSP price! Not so good.

[Kamalot]

Wouldn't you say its a bit flame baity? I mean the tag line here is "gaming news.... with attitude", but were not supposed to submit obstenstivly troll postings.

PSP Price Cut based on over shipping! Ok!

7 million PSPs rotting all over the world, Sony to cut PSP price! Not so good.
Flamy or not, it is based on math right? People are always claiming that there is no difference between shipped and sold numbers, but this showcases massive differences.

How about someone goes, double-checks these numbers and puts it all together in a well-presented format. It would be a huge scoop for Evil Avatar!

[31 Flavas]

How about someone goes, double-checks these numbers and puts it all together in a well-presented format. It would be a huge scoop for Evil Avatar!"Nintendo is doomed" news will always sell because Nintendo is always doing stuff contrary to public opinion. Sony and Microsoft on the other hand never intentonally do anything "un-cool" like sticking to principles (cartridges for no load times), 1 handed controllers, or name their new system "Wii".

So hard core, double-checked, proofed news stories of Sony or Microsoft failing or that forcast them not meeting predictions aren't really going to sell since they "know" what to do. You'll just be labed a fanboy, zelot, or troll.

I'd be like trying to sell "news" that maybe Israel isn't always right. If you don't support Israel, you're an anti-semite.

[Mr.Condescension]

7 million PSPs rotting all over the world, Sony to cut PSP price! Not so good.

Sounds like complete and utter bullshit to me. There is absolutely no way retailers will even accept that volume of goods without a reasonable expectation of selling them. Just warehousing them would cost retailers a fuck ton. The fellow doing the research obviously is missing some critical information.

[Ravenlock]

Sounds like complete and utter bullshit to me. There is absolutely no way retailers will even accept that volume of goods without a reasonable expectation of selling them. Just warehousing them would cost retailers a fuck ton. The fellow doing the research obviously is missing some critical information.Did you read the thread? Can you point out what critical info he's missing?

He has the confirmed number of U.S. PSP sales (4,879,000), the confirmed number of Japan PSP sales (3.8 million), confirmed European PSP sales as of 6 months ago (2.4 million), and confirmed Australian PSP sales (161 thousand).

All that's left is the unreported "other", but outside of what's covered above, the DS has only sold about 2.4 million (their outside-of-US-and-Japan number is 6.13 million, and 3.7 of that is covered by Europe), so it seems pretty unlikely that the PSP has sold any more than that in the "other" region.

4.88 + 3.8 + 2.4 + .16 + at most, 2.4 more = 13.64 (he oversimplifies a bit by grouping Europe in with "other" and assuming the PSP total outside of US and Japan is at most 4,000,000, where I've given them about 4.8 million in my calculation)

13.64 is a lot less than 20 million, Sony's claimed number of shipped units (http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data/bizdatapsp_e.html). Heck, Sony doesn't even include "other" in that, they claim they've shipped 20.02 million just to the US, Japan and Europe, where the sources show they haven't sold more than 13 million.

If there's a flaw in that math, I'd love to have it pointed out, but he's linked where he got all his numbers.

[Kamalot]

Sounds like complete and utter bullshit to me. There is absolutely no way retailers will even accept that volume of goods without a reasonable expectation of selling them. Just warehousing them would cost retailers a fuck ton. The fellow doing the research obviously is missing some critical information.
Of course it smells like bullshit to you, cause you don't want to believe it. :rolleyes:

If there is critical information missing, please let us know what it is. From what I can see, the information errs on the side of being generous with estimated sales numbers instead of conservative.

Folding your arms, sticking your nose in the air and crapping on the post does not make it any less true.

[Johan]

Folding your arms, sticking your nose in the air and crapping on the post does not make it any less true.

There's a lovely image. ;)

I would never buy a PSP...I like to play games that are actually fun. ;) I think they have one...Lumines.

[J Arcane]

Of course it smells like bullshit to you, cause you don't want to believe it. :rolleyes:

If there is critical information missing, please let us know what it is. From what I can see, the information errs on the side of being generous with estimated sales numbers instead of conservative.

Folding your arms, sticking your nose in the air and crapping on the post does not make it any less true.
How about a basic understand of the way business actually works?

Do you have any idea the kind of tax hit a company would have to be taking just letting those things sit in a warehouse somewhere? Stored goods are taxable assets, and we'd be talking some serious value here. Billions.

And if they're just sitting collecting dust on a retail shelf somewhere, then where the fuck are they? And why is it that even on the used market you're lucky to save 20 bucks off the brand new price? If there's so much unused stock, the price should be going down, not staying at near new prices even for used goods. Supply and demand don't work that way.

[31 Flavas]

If there's so much unused stock, the price should be going down, not staying at near new prices even for used goods. Supply and demand don't work that way.Sony invested a lot in PSP, if they do not keep up at least marginally in shipping then *everyone* would know it's "Game Over" for the PSP.

Edit: And boy wouldn't that ever hurt... The magnificant PSP, smacked down by the tarted up flash game system.

[J Arcane]

Sony invested a lot in PSP, if they do not keep up at least marginally in shipping then *everyone* would know it's "Game Over" for the PSP.

Edit: And boy wouldn't that ever hurt... The magnificant PSP, smacked down by the tarted up flash game system.
As much as I'm sure they wish they did, I am also quite certain that Sony does not have that level of control over the state of the used PSP market.

[Ravenlock]

Again I say: if there's a problem with his sources or his numbers, just point it out. Sony claims over 20 million shipped units to the US, Europe and Japan. Sources reporting system sales indicate they have not sold more than 13 million units in those regions.

That's reeaaalllly easy math. Hell, go ahead and pretend there's 2 MILLION unreported PSP sales in there, and you're still stuck with 5 million units just sitting around.

I'm not interested in arguing the merit of the system - we did that to death - and frankly I don't care whether they're hemorrhaging money on the thing or not. I'm just asking whether or not you can find a problem with the guy's very simple numerical calculations. 'Cause if you can't, his sources beat your idle speculation.

[J Arcane]

A bunch of Wikipedia quotes do not, in my mind, constitute "thorough research".

[Ravenlock]

And if he had linked to Wikipedia for the data I'm talking about you'd have a point, smartass.

His US sales data comes from NPD funworld (site (http://www.npdfunworld.com/funServlet?nextpage=index.html)), reported right here (http://videogamecharts.com/page3.html), his European sales data from a press release (http://www.slicedgaming.com/news8302.html), and his Japan sales data from Media Create (site (http://www.m-create.com/eng/index.html)), reported here (http://www.dsrevolution.com/article.php?articleid=1385).

You can argue that there isn't a good source for the European number (and I'll agree with you, I wish I had a better one and if someone finds one I'll look at it), but again, the CONFIRMED numbers for the US and Japan are 4.88 million and 3.8 million respectively. 4.88 + 3.8 = 8.68 million.

20 million - 8.68 million = 11.32 million. You think they've sold 11.32 million PSP's in Europe? Hell, even if we TRIPLE the 2.4 million European PSP sales his source states and make it 7.2 million (a basically ridiculous and completely unrealistic number), we're still more than 4 million short.

Try again.

[J Arcane]

And if he had linked to Wikipedia for the data I'm talking about you'd have a point, smartass.

Umm, did you read the fucking article? Over half the links in that post are to the DS article on Wikipedia.

[Ravenlock]

Umm, did you read the fucking article? Over half the links in that post are to the DS article on Wikipedia.Read my post. Specifically, where I said "And if he had linked to Wikipedia for the data I'm talking about you'd have a point, smartass." Look at the cited numbers I'M USING, and where I got them from IN HIS THREAD.

What was that you were saying to someone earlier about deliberately ignoring a point and being an ass? Ah yes. "Like a case study in deliberate ignorance."

And for the record, his post contains 8 links. 2 are to Wikipedia, and neither of those 2 are in reference to US, Japan or Europe data.

[Kamalot]

Again I say: if there's a problem with his sources or his numbers, just point it out. Sony claims over 20 million shipped units to the US, Europe and Japan. Sources reporting system sales indicate they have not sold more than 13 million units in those regions.
If someone has valid reasons for not believing these umbers, please speak up. Either there are a TON of unsold PSPs in retailers all over the world or Sony is lying about the number of shipped systems.

I did a quick search on the number of GameStops and Walmarts in the world, and I don't theink there is enough shelf space in all of their stores to account for a tenth of the 'missing' PSPs. That leads me to believe that Sony is lying about the number of systems they 'shipped' Lies wouldn't be a first from Sony. Some people think that it is good tactics for a business to lie. I call it evil.

[J Arcane]

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/05q1_eleki.pdf
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/06q1_eleki.pdf

According to their recent stockholder report, Sony shipped 2.97 million units worldwide in fiscal year 2004, 14.06 million units in fiscal year 2005, and another 2.02 million in Q1 of this year.

Adding that up, that comes to over 19 million units, and that's not including numbers so far for q2, which I have no doubt will show to make up for the missing 1 million in the PR guy's number, given that they shipped twice that last quarter.

Now, if you want to accuse them of outright stockholder fraud, go right ahead, I can't stop you, but I AM gonna sit here and laugh if you do.

[Kamalot]

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/05q1_eleki.pdf
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/06q1_eleki.pdf

According to their recent stockholder report, Sony shipped 2.97 million units worldwide in fiscal year 2004, 14.06 million units in fiscal year 2005, and another 2.02 million in Q1 of this year.

Adding that up, that comes to over 19 million units, and that's not including numbers so far for q2, which I have no doubt will show to make up for the missing 1 million in the PR guy's number, given that they shipped twice that last quarter.

Now, if you want to accuse them of outright stockholder fraud, go right ahead, I can't stop you, but I AM gonna sit here and laugh if you do.
Then where are the PSPs? Why haven't they been accounted for in people's SOLD numbers? Why is it that Nintendo's SOLD numbers add up but Sony's don't?

[J Arcane]

Then where are the PSPs? Why haven't they been accounted for in people's SOLD numbers? Why is it that Nintendo's SOLD numbers add up but Sony's don't?
You are aware of the fact that sales numbers for almost anything are notoriously inaccurate, right?

Sony doesn't release or know how many of their products have actually sold, because they already sold them when they shipped to the retailer.

And there is as of yet no magical resource that will tell you exactly how many units of a given anything have sold at every retail store in the world.

The best you can get is aggregate numbers from some of the big names, like the ones your article guy used, and try and project and guess what the actual total is.

It really ISN'T the "simple math" you keep babbling about, it just doesn't work that way, and until everyone starts buying everything from the exact same store chain or sometihng, it never will.

[Kamalot]

It really ISN'T the "simple math" you keep babbling about, it just doesn't work that way, and until everyone starts buying everything from the exact same store chain or sometihng, it never will.I never claimed it was simple. I'm still trying to make heads-or-tails of it myself.

Here's what I've got so far. Please let me know where I am off...

Sony 'ships' to retailers and claims that number on their financial reports.

Nintendo somehow tracks units sold, and claims that number on their financial reports.

Some 'sold' numbers are available from various places. These aren't complete but give a rough idea of the units sold.

Adding these various 'sold numbers' from around the world produces a number close to the number of DS' that Nintendo reports to have sold.

Adding these various 'sold numbers' from around the world produces a number quite different from the number of PSP's that Sony reports to have shipped.

Since there is such a big difference between the shipped claims and the sold numbers, there are a few options:

1) The various numbers are wrong. Whatever the 'sold' numbers are for the PSP around the world report are inaccurate since they don't add up to Sony's claimed 'shipped' number. They aren't even close. This begs the question, why is it that the numbers do add up to Nintendo's claim of units 'sold'?

2) The reported numbers are wrong. Either Nintendo is claiming numbers lower than reality or Sony is claiming numbers higher than reality. It may be a mix of both.

So, what am I missing?

[Ravenlock]

Kamalot pretty much covered what I was going to say, and asked all the questions I'd like answers to.

At least you're responding with an argument now, instead of making "did you read the fucking article?" quips that in fact demonstrate that YOU didn't read the article. I appreciate that. ;)

EDIT 2 Days Later: I guess maybe you're not actually responding with an argument. Oh well.

[J Arcane]

Sorry to necro, but I had the time to do a little digging, and took a look at Nintendo's earnings reports. And now I'm quite a bit more skeptical about that PAL site than I was before.

Observe: http://www.nintendo.com/corp/report/Earnings_Release0603F.pdf

With respect to sales by business category, handheld game products in the electronic entertainment products
division, "Nintendo DS" and its upgraded model "Nintendo DS Lite" sold a total of more than 16 million units on
a worldwide basis in just over sixteen months after launch.

Doing a little math on their actual sales numbers, I get 11,460,000 for FY 2006.

Their annual report from 2005 (http://www.nintendo.com/corp/report/NintendoAnnualReport2005.pdf)shows another 2.12 million units in Japan and 3.14 units outside Japan, which gives me 5.26 million sales in 2005.

For a total sales of almost 17 million units, less not only than the PSP's shipped numbers, but WAY less than the "22 million" that PAL "research" claims.

[Ravenlock]

First off, thank you for finding some excellent, definitive data!

But you don't actually need the 2nd report at all, because its data is limited to 2005, and the first report contains ALL sales data from the launch of the Nintendo DS up to March of 2006. Page 30 of the Earnings_Release0603F.pdf contains sales numbers both from Apr 04 - Mar 05 and from Apr 05 - Mar 06 (before the release of the DS Lite in the USA).

Oh, and also...Doing a little math on their actual sales numbers, I get 11,460,000 for FY 2006."A little math"? What? That number is listed directly on page 30; they did that math for you. Yes, that's how many DS's they sold from Apr 05 - Mar 06. Only reading skills needed, no math required.

The numbers in the document you linked break down like this:
DS hardware sold 2.12 million in Japan from Apr 04 to Mar 05, and 4.78 million in Japan from Apr 05 to Mar 06, for a total of 6.91 million Japanese sales by March '06. Of those, 580,000 were DS Lites. (It launched in Japan in March '06.)

DS hardware sold 2.19 million in the Americas from Apr 04 to Mar 05, and 2.92 million from Apr 05 to Mar 06, for a total of 5.11 million "Americas" sales by March '06. The lite had not yet launched in the US.

DS hardware sold 950,000 in the "Other" category from Apr 04 to Mar 05, and 3.76 million from Apr 05 to Mar 06, for a total of 4.71 million "Other" sales by March '06. The lite had not yet launched in the "Other" category.

Total DS hardware sales by March 2006: 16.73 million. That's a hard number, according to page 30 of the report you linked, not an approximation or a forecast.

So to get total sales up to now, we just need to figure out how many DS's and Lites sold around the world in the last 5 months.

For this (unfortunately) we have no data from Nintendo, so unless you have something else, we have to rely on data collectors. NPD Funworld data in the US reported 600,000 DS sales (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6154053.html) in the last 19 days of June (after the release of the DS Lite), and 377,000 DS sales (http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3152822) in July. August numbers are of course not out yet, so we'll stop at the end of July. So that's another 977,000 in the US since the Lite launched. We can compare this to the link I gave you earlier in the thread (http://videogamecharts.com/page3.html) which listed the same 377,000 DS sales in July and 593,000 for June, also citing NPD data. Gamespot probably rounded up, so I'll use the lower total and go with 970,000 sales in the U.S. in June and July. I can find no other sources for Apr and May, so I have to go with the numbers at the link with the NPD table (http://videogamecharts.com/page3.html); 284,357 in those two months. So April through July in the U.S., aprrox 1.25 million more DS sales.

Unfortunately, the only data collector I know of for Japan is Media Create. They release reports weekly, and only to paying members, which I am not. The link I provided earlier (http://www.dsrevolution.com/article.php?articleid=1385), however, sourcing Media Create, lists a total of 1.89 million Japanese DS Lite sales between May 15, 2006 and the end of July 2006. I followd the links back through the site and added all the weeks up myself, feel free to double check me. Can't find anything for April or the first part of May.

I don't have the time or energy right now to go looking for better "Other" data, so I'm just leaving it out, but here's where we stand:

16.73 million DS sales worldwide through March 2006, via the data YOU provided.
1.25 million DS sales in the US from April 2006 through July 2006 via NPD's data.
1.89 million Japanese DS Lite sales (I just ignored standard DS sales) in Japan between May 15, 2006 and end of July 2006 via Media Create data.

For a grand total of 19.87 million DS sales I've just pointed to data for. Actually, you pointed to data for most of it - thanks.

So to NOT get at least 22 million sold units worldwide, the case would need to be that LESS than 2.13 million DS were sold in the following equation...

([Worldwide in August] + [in Europe and the rest of the "Other" category in the 5 months of April through August] + [in Japan in the first half of May, when the DS Lite was still selling 100,000+ per week there]). You think that's the case? I doubt it.

Alright, I've put enough time into this for one day. What's most amazing is the best data I have there - data that shows that 16.73 million out of your assumed "17 million units total" had already sold 5 months ago, before the US DS Lite release - came from your own document, which I guess you didn't read. That seems kind of in character.

If you want to start putting some time into adding numbers instead of just finding and quickly glancing at PDF's, go for it, but so far you've only served to help my side of the case AFTER being insultingly dismissive and making flat-out false accusations earlier in the discussion. How ironic that you entered this by attacking the credibility of someone else's research.

Edits made to add links and add some formatting for readability, since this post was stupidly huge.

Edited again to say that while my data was good, I misread J's post and was a dick about it. Sorry.

[J Arcane]

So, you go on at length to quote the exact same numbers I posted and then accuse me of not reading the article I posted the numbers from.

What the motherfuck are you even talking about?

EDIT: As for the rest of the numbers, fair enough, you raise a good case. I just don't get your attempts at criticizing me for reading the same fucking links I posted in the first place.

[Ravenlock]

So, you go on at length to quote the exact same numbers I posted and then accuse me of not reading the article I posted the numbers from.

What the motherfuck are you even talking about?

EDIT: As for the rest of the numbers, fair enough, you raise a good case. I just don't get your attempts at criticizing me for reading the same fucking links I posted in the first place.Oh damn. I owe you an apology. I misplaced the misunderstanding.

When you said you "did a little math on their sales numbers" from Earnings_Release0603F.pdf to get a number for fiscal year 2006 of 11,460,000, I couldn't really fathom what that meant, since the number is written down in plain sight.

You then linked an unnecessary 2nd document to get the 5.26 million sale total for 2005, where the actual Nintendo-reported FY total for 2005 was right there in your first document, on the same page as the first total - 5.27 million. Those two things combined were what got me thinking you hadn't actually read the 1st document.

I just didn't see - still don't - how you took that 16.73 million figure giving the sales as of 5 months ago (and before the Lite's release), and tried to use it to question the sales figured currently being reporting. That they had sold almost 17 million before the Lite came out seems to only support the current 22 million+ figure, not hurt it. The additional data from NPD and Media Create in my opinion makes it pretty much conclusive.

Mea culpa on a misreading of your post. I thought I had read that you were trying to say they had only sold 17 million as of NOW, and your data didn't show that at all. I read it again now and see that you were in fact saying exactly what your data said - that they had sold 17 million 5 months ago - I just don't see why you thought that data helped your case any.

So now we've both been dicks in this thread unnecessarily. My apologies. :o Cookies and excessive profanity all around.

[J Arcane]

Sweet. I love unnecessary profanity. Fuckass!

And this fiscal year crap is confusing the hell out of me now, as I'm going back over and lookign at the two reports. Goddamn accountants. Leave it up to them to invent an entirely different kind of year just to help their profit margins. Fuckers.

I had kind of glossed over the exact dates and just assumed both reports covered roughly the same amount of time, when in fact the Sony report has numbers up to July, while Nintendo isn't nearly so prompt with it's investor reports.

So there are indeed some missing sales on Nintendo's part that I neglected to consider in my rush to post and be all smart and stuff.

I'm still not sure I buy those PSP sales reports either. A 6 million unit discrepancy is a good three fiscal quarters of production (or one, PSP did really good in Q3 '05). Meaning that for the better part of the year Sony's just been cranking out PSP's and sending them off to retailers despite them not actually selling. And I'm fairly certain most retailers aren't in the habit of ordering truckloads more units when the present stock isn't selling at all.

Statistics suck.

I guess I just get annoyed because it's trendy to bash on the PSP here, and go on about how thoroughly it's being trounced by the DS, when as I see it, even with 22 million DS shipped, that's still only a 2 mil difference between Sony and the company that formerly had a near total monopoly on the market.

And if you want to dip into the dangerous waters of sales numbers, a lot of the ones I've seen suggest that the only reason Nintendo has that lead is due to Japan. In the US at least, the two are neck and neck, and the PSP was actually beating it out for some time. I haven't looked at numbers for Europe, but I get the impression it's doing fantastically over there as well, in no small part thanks to Sony Europe putting every other division's marketing to shame.

It's a great system, there ARE some great games on it, and I think it gets rather unfairly bashed based on a lot of nonsense.